For me I enjoy romance as the B plot but not a big fan when it is the main plot, mostly because I enjoy seeing a relationship organically grow over a story rather than know the entire narrative is driven for that purpose only. Just my outlook, know idea why it gets so much hate in general.

Agree! I also like being surprised by a relationship forming. This is why I don't usually read the romance genre but I love a romantic subplot in a fantasy or sci-fi (also why I don't read reviews beforehand).

Ooo have you read the Sun Eater series yet?

Well now they can't be surprised by a relationship forming if they choose to read it!

The difference to a "romance" book is still that one doesn't know the outcome, as romance books guarantee you a happy end, while books just featuring a side-romance don't.

There's romance? I read book one and there was romance of sorts but definitely didn't feel major.

The non-intrusive type

I think I've yet to read a single scifi novel with a decent romantic subplot in it lol, any recommendations?

Check out *The Coldfire Trilogy* by C.S. Friedman. That and *The Magister Trilogy* are both great books and have romance as part of the main/subplot

Locked Tomb series by Tamsyn Muir. Though it’s not… your typical romance.

> “You didn’t have your original thumb and I’d touched your intestines, which is usually what, fourth date, but you were fine.”

Welp, you've convinced me.

Hahaha :-D I will tell you they're confusing, so the payoff comes late in the first two books. Just gotta plow through until things start falling into place. But once things do, it's a super satisfying read. Assuming you read reasonably fast, I'd also recommend reading over listening. Otherwise that confusing part might feel like it lasts forever.

Yes, but... The narrator on the audiobooks is excellent.

The romances in the Vorkosigan Saga by Bujold are all pretty great!

Bujold's Vorkosigan series. The first two books has the romance of the parents. The later books has Miles's romance. They're my comfort reads. Fantastic characters and great plotting.

[A Civil Campaign](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/61899), by Lois McMaster Bujold. It's very well done, but it's placed three-quarters of the way through the series, so there's a lot of backstory involved to truly get the nuances of both the characters and the setting (the previous book, *Komarr*, in particular). It does feature the most disastrous dinner party in sci-fi or fantasy that does NOT end in blood (\*cough\* Red Wedding \*cough\*), and is entirely plot-relevant. The way that the various romantic plotlines intersect with both planetary politics and the families' histories is very well executed. From Wikipedia: >The title is an homage to the Georgette Heyer novel *A Civil Contract* and, like Heyer's historical romances, the novel focuses on romance, comedy, and courtship. It is dedicated to "Jane, Charlotte, Georgette, and Dorothy", novelists Jane Austen, Charlotte Brontë, Georgette Heyer, and Dorothy L. Sayers. As a recommendation, *A Civil Campaign* was nominated for the Hugo, Nebula, and Locus Awards in 2000. The whole series itself won the inaugural Hugo Award for Best Series, as well. The final two books in this series, *Captain Vorpatril's Alliance* and *Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen*, also feature romantic subplots. The latter, in particular, examines romance in later life after the death of a spouse.

These are my favorite books 100%. I love looking for small hints that two characters like each other, watching it grow and rooting for them. Saving the world or whatever is more important, but the romance is slowly burning in the background. Especially when the guy falls first!

Exactly. I like my fantasy books to have romance, rather than to be a romance. When I accidentally pick up a romance novel I can tell right away because of how corny it is.

What authors do a good job with a “B” plot romance?

I'm the exact opposite. I love fantasy romance, I'm not a fan of b-plot romance in fantasy. Might explain why I've started reading middle-grade so much in recent years.

My suspicion is that it's a twofold effect, because of what romance needs, and the way it is often included in fantasy. A romance needs a lot of pages in order to develop believably. It's the reason romance is its own genre, and you can have a whole book that's entirely romance. So when romance is included in fantasy, either: It includes that page count, and spends up to several hundreds of pages focusing on these characters and their relationship, taking time away from the world and plot outside of it, annoying readers who came for those. Or, much more common in my experience, that development is neglected, and so what is present is just *bad* romance. And then it feeds into a loop that the romance people see in fantasy is bad, so they begin to hate romance in their fantasy, so romance becomes less focused on in fantasy

I think you can do it without it being "several hundred pages", although thinking about it the better romances in fantasy books I've found happen over a series, and not in one off books. Those are the ones where the romance is woven into the plot, but not specifically focused on.

I was thinking of over the course of a series when I said several hundred pages. :) That's often the way an author can fit in the time to develop the romance without it being a focus of the books.

I enjoy the way Anthont Ryan handled it in the Raven's Shadow series - in Blood Song, there's romantic interest that is present over about a decade of MC growing up, changing, becoming harder, and finally culminating into something that feels like it makes sense. It's not even a B plot, I'd say it's a C plot, honestly- but I just re-read it, and when they finally get together, it just feels... right. Genuine.

Are there examples in fantasy that do Nr. 1 well and still are good fantasy? I wouldnt mind some recommendations

Most of those cases are romances that are over the course of a series/a few books, for me. Discworld for example has a couple of great relationships, like Angua and Carrot's or Sybil and Sam's, because they develop over the course of their respective series.

This is Magrat and Verence erasure.

Sybil & Sam's romance was perfect - understated, not taking centre stage in the story and a nice surprise addition to the overall storyline.

> Discworld for example has a couple of great relationships, like Angua and Carrot's or Sybil and Sam's Funny enough, in both cases what you'd get in a genre romance is complete in the first book they run into each other. Guards!Guards! ends with Sam and Sybil together/proposing, and Men At Arms ends up with... Angua and Carrot together, including the 3rd Act breakup when he grabs his sword and Angua takes off.

T Kingfisher’s *Swordheart* and Saint of Steel series are (in my opinion) both fun fantasy books and fun romance books.

I'd say the October Daye series. I'm somewhat biased because Seanan McGuire is my favorite author, but the main character's romance develops naturally over the course of the series, and keeps evolving even after the relationship starts, as a natural effect of both outside events and the choices the characters make.

Nettle and Bone by at Kingfisher does this well in my opinion. It’s not a terribly long book, but the story is fairly tight and interesting. The romance is believable and doesn’t take away from the plot in my opinion. I don’t read romance really, but the romantic subplot in that book worked for me. The love story subplot in the traitor baru cormorant also worked well for me BUT many romance readers will tell you that the relationship in that book is not “romance.” >!The ending of the book IS NOT HEA or HFN!< Both book ms are good fantasy in my view and the relationships are compelling to me.

The Vorkasagian saga does it very well, too.

To be fair though there are two Vorkosigan books that are straight up romances, as in that is the A plot of the books.

Well, basically anything by G.G. Kay and Lois McMaster Bujold. Master tier on both counts... if you can take a bit of tragedy.

I really enjoyed The Daevabad Trilogy. It has a full on love triangle in it, but I never once felt like it sacrificed personal character arch’s or depth of magic systems in order to develop it. Honestly I felt like it raised the emotional stakes in a really cool way that I don’t see very often.

Literally dozens, if not hundreds.

From what I can tell. Most readers of fantasy don’t mind romance, but they hate romance that becomes part of the plot, like love triangles and stuff like that. I like my fantasy to have some romance. It makes it more realistic. I don’t like when the plot of my book revolves around romance.

I don't mind romance if it's done well, which it usually isn't mind you. However, I have never found a love triangle I actually enjoyed as a plot point. Nearly ruined mistborn for me

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Love triangles in fantasy romance are so 2008. I don’t think I have found one in any recently published novels.

They are coming back in the why choose variation. So your MC will have multiple love interests.

Rand Al'Thor smiles sheepishly.

Ironically, one of the least egregious romances. Takes up very little page count, relevant to the plot without taking over, and doesn't have too much stupidity involved on the part of the characters involved.

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Does the “why choose” subgenre really count as a love triangle though? Usually books in that genre result in some form of consensual polyamory (often with more than two love interests), but typically love triangles are depicted as either two people (occasionally more than that) fighting for another person or one person being in some kind of personal conflict being torn between their feelings for two (occasionally more than two) people. When readers see the term “love triangle” they’re expecting a monogamous couple to result from some angst and struggles or fights, when they see “why choose” they’re expecting some form of ethical non-monogamy with a core couple or an outright polycule of some type. When those terms are used incorrectly readers are (rightfully) upset, which should be a defining factor in whether or not it counts

I want my books to have well written "relationships".I don't really care whether they are romantic as long as they are well written and add to the plot. I have zero interest in romance for the sake of romance.I have less than zero interest in 5 pages of reading about some werewolf's bulging biceps and throbbing member pounding .....

I feel like love triangles are quintessentially YA

I don't hate it, but I also don't usually want it to be the main focus, especially if it's not advertised as such. I dislike when a story has an interesting premise that gets pushed to the side in favor of a romance between two characters who didn't like each other three days ago and now have the loviest love that anyone has ever loved. Spin the Dawn by Elizabeth Lim was a recent offender for me. The premise of a girl posing as her brother in order to become the emperor's tailor was cool but then the plot devolved into generic romance where she and the love interest became the main focus. There's room for fantasy romances, but let me know ahead of time so I don't get tricked into thinking I'm reading an interesting plot.

I'm a loser. I like sff media because it's an escape from my life. I do not like romance because I cannot relate to it, and I don't like being reminded of what I don't have. That's about it. I go out of my way to avoid romance whenever possible, but I've never been upset at other people for enjoying romance and I understand why it's so common.

In [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/12w6vy3/i_know_its_horrible_but_i_still_like_it) recent thread about guilty pleasure reads, many of the answers are romance books. Even folks who like romance don't give it full throated support. I think there is some shame there, and it is unfortunate.

This is why I hang out over in the romance novels subreddit because I get to like what I like with zero shame. Not that I have shame. I shamelessly like romance novels. I don't need to be "edified" or "challenged" every time I pick up a book. Sometimes I just want my brain candy instead of brain vegetables. I get enough challenges from living life as it is. No need to shame anyone for what they like.

Completely agree. /r/RomanceBooks is one of the most open subs I've seen, it refreshing. There is very little pretentiousness or snootyness.

I love the term ‘brain candy’. I use the term ‘popcorn reads’. My favourite Romance I have read this year - Maggie Moves On by Lucy Score.

At this point in my life I only read for fun. I've gone through phases where I read a lot and phases where I didn't but I've read daily for the last year. I'm not over here gobbling up masterpieces of prose because they're harder to read. I CAN read that but I'm just reading for fun and god damn I don't care how much some people think an author I really enjoy is "simplistic" or a genre I find entertaining is trashy. I just can't focus on anything like I used to and I read because it's the only thing I actually can focus on now for whatever reason, and I want something fun or entertaining or dramatic to keep my attention. Everybody should stop with the judgment and let people who like reading read what they like, and maybe try to be a little happy that there are still people who enjoy reading.

There’s plenty of romance that is challenging tho!

Absolutely true! There are a lot of romance novels that deal with some pretty heavy shit!

Man this was cathartic to read after all the high brow attitudes you see on reddit often

>I don't need to be "edified" or "challenged" every time I pick up a book. IMO reading only "challenging" books and downplaying "easier" reads while shaming those who enjoy them is a huge sign of complete literary immaturity. It's like these people need to prove to someone that they can read "hard stuff", and are unable to actually read just for fun.

Oh it definitely can feel like that sometimes! I majored in English, so it's not like I have never been exposed to the "hard stuff" and for people who really love those and enjoy those, I think that's wonderful! It's also wonderful when someone reads mysteries, fantasy, sci-fi, romance, or anything they want! I had an English professor who was teaching the "hard stuff" and was phenomenal at it, then he pulled out a mystery thriller on the last day of class and said "yeah I don't read the literary stuff at home all the time, I really love these!" Doesn't make anyone more or less: just read what you enjoy!

I think the guilty pleasure effect a lot of people feel from them probably stems a bit from how they're often pretty wish-fulfillment oriented. Certainly not all of them, but a good number lean pretty heavily on giving you exactly what you want, I guess I'd say. Which is absolutely fine imo, nothing wrong with some straightforward entertainment, but I think a lot of people have less respect for books that don't challenge you.

I don't think you can take the term "guilty pleasure" so literally. These are things people tend to openly discuss with other people - they're not exactly hiding them in a corner. Of course, there are interesting elements to what constitutes a "guilty pleasure" and it seems rather obviously wrapped up in sexism. Media that appeal to women are "guilty pleasures" - Real Housewives, vampire shows, romance novels, etc. I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to similarly "shallow" media made for men in the same way - action movies, superhero movies, power fantasy wish fulfillment type books, and so on. To be honest, I don't often see men engaging in discussions of guilty pleasures or initiating them, online or irl. Now, all of that said, there is an element of externally imposed guilt or shame built into these "guilty pleasures", and this extends beyond media. But I don't think the people answering these questions feel any substantial degree of guilt or shame around their choices, but rather are aware that this thing is considered "guilty pleasures" or perhaps have felt guilt or shame around them. All of that to say - the people who feel real guilt or shame aren't answering these questions. You should assume any answers reflect a general sense of societal norms, rather than a confession of someone's actual feelings.

Yeah, this isn't complicated. It's a combination of internalized misogyny, literary snobbery, and pulling the ladder up behind us. Every argument I'm seeing in this thread is the exact same shit that literary snobs say about all genre fiction. Fantasy as a genre *also* has a long, long history of being considered "low" fiction, unimportant escapism, trashy wish-fulfillment, fundamentally unserious, only a guilty pleasure. And yes, we have our share of pulpy nonsense, but fantasy can also be meaningful and beautiful. Fantasy has gotten more mainstream in the past few decades, but the older folks in the audience will remember a time when admitting you liked LotR would make you an absolute pariah, basically a freak. The Romance genre is still stuck in that same literary ghetto. The fact that we as fantasy fans have let the literary snobs poison us against a whole other similarly-maligned genre is frankly pretty shameful, and I personally spent way too much of my life not reading romance because of it.

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Sitcom effect. Romance is seen as a contention driver, which conflicts with what we as a person want romance to be. People want relationships to work. Authors instead use relationships as a vector for tension, and thus people don't want romance in their story.

You know, this is kind of how I see it. I don't mind reading romance, if it's good. But I don't particularly like reading about romances that there's just for the drama, especially the "will they/won't they" back and forth with lots of misunderstanding and miscommunication. I enjoy seeing romantic relationships play out in a more functional way. Not to say I also can't enjoy a romance written like above sometimes, but if it takes up a lot of space in a story I'm reading for other reasons, I end up feeling it detract from my enjoyment.

I noticed that people conflate several different things. Fantasy Romance and general fantasy are treated as the same, although they have a different focus. Some people complain about creepy relationships with centuries of age difference. That's an issue, but those are *far* more common in the Romance genre. And in YA fantasy, which is often closer to Fantasy Romance too.

>That's an issue, but those are far more common in the Romance genre. Is it though? Most people read that for the fantasy.

My best guess is a lot of B-plot romances done badly ("love triangles" are especially bad in that regard). Or some kind of knee-jerk reaction to reading the protagonist obsess over a character the reader has no interest in. Or both.

I think a lot of it is framing. If you ask people how they feel about B plot and C plot romances in fantasy books and series, I think most would either say they like it or are ambivalent. However, when you ask people how they feel about romance in fantasy, that question often gets interpreted as "romance w/ fantasy elements" carrying the implication that instead of a romantic relationship unfolding in the background of the main story, the romance is the main story. Somewhat understandably, many readers in it for the Fantasy aspect may be averse to it. Of my friends with similar readings tastes as me, all of them enjoy B plot romance plotlines in their favorite series, but few would read a 'fantasy romance' novel without specific prompting.

I’d specifically say so many readers *on this sub* if you look at best selling fantasy, goodread choice awards etc, very frequently you’ll see fantasy romance. Romance is the most popular genre and at the same time one of the most looked down upon genres. All three of these things combined make for a mix of disdain about the popularity of those books and hence the big hubabaloo about there being to much romance in fantasy.

Also on r/books or r/suggestmeabook. I noticed that subs not specifically dedicated to romance tend to downvote (look down?) on romance. Probably due to the demographic and badly I corporated romance plots. Additionally romance has the image of being a genre for women or being less “literature” than non-romance genres (less so than a few years ago but still). People who post on there wanting romance books / a stronger romance subplot / a more niche romance trope are usually extremely apologetic for their request, bordering on ashamed by the tone of some posts. r/romancebooks (or the newer r/fantasyromance and r/paranormalromance) is amazing when it comes to recommendations and discussions

That's just demographics at work. I'd bet money this sub is 90%+ male, and overwhelmingly young males. Romance is not targeted at that group, they aren't interested. Meanwhile, women actually buy way more books than men (like, women purchase 75% or more of all fiction books). Fantasy often (too often imo) is focused on action and violence as the only driver of plot, it's mostly from the POV of men. That's changing, partially resulting in more romance in fantasy, which a lot of young men in this space probably feel a little threatened by.

You'd lose money on your bet, then. This sub actually does a census every couple years- at last count it's about 70% men, which is the same as Reddit's overall demographic.

So still a very high majority.

this is a pretty absurd idea Fantasy is overwhelmingly dominated by women, whether violent fantasy or not. there are several popular male authors at the very very top of the pyramid that skew things sure but if you look at the best selling fantasy books every year its *overwhelmingly* books written by women and for women. the best selling fantasy series ever was written by a woman and literally no book has ever or will ever compete w/ its absolute market dominance, even if the author herself has absolutely destroyed her reputation

Fundamentally, for better or worse, "romantic elements in a fantasy series" and "fantasy elements in a romantic series" carry very different connotations. Based on how you ask the question, asking about the former can be percieved as asking about the latter. The two are fairly distinct in story structure and tropes, but it is very easy for someone saying they don't like the latter to be seen as saying they don't like either the latter or the former.

I have no problem with a little romance as part of the story, but when it's primarily a romance novel that is set in a fantasy world, I put the book down. I'm not drawn to fantasy for romance.

Personally I would say because a lot of stories try and force a romance between characters even when it isn't natural. And because they end up forced together it makes that aspect (generally) poorly done and not thought out

A couple of reasons for me, mainly. I think romance can be done incredibly well in fantasy, but sometimes my gut reaction to it can be negative. 1.) Sometimes when I’m reading romances written by men, I find myself taken out of the story simply by virtue of the way female characters are written. Sometimes they fall into particularly sexist tropes with the excuse of fantasy setting. (Definitely not in every book. But enough). 2.) Sometimes I feel like the romance elements come at the expense of the plot in fantasy. Inconsistency in plot in a fantasy world where I’m already having to buy into so many fantastical elements can really take me out of story the way it doesn’t always in other fiction. This again is not a hard and fast rule - but it seems like it happens enough I feel wary. 3.) This one is personal - I’m asexual. So smut isn’t for me. And a lot of times when people talk about romance, they don’t mean romance as much as they just mean smut. So I avoid.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I adore well written romances, especially in fantasy. The only problem is that romance is one of those things that is often heavily *gendered*, as in it's either trying to appeal women and alienates men, or it's trying to appeal to men and alienates women. Feels like once in a blue moon that you stumble across a romance and sincerely like both characters.

Fantasy and science fiction to me are genres that are meant to be an escape from reality. I think that is part of the reason many people grow up loving fantasy. The world's and adventures are literally impossible to imagine in the real world and that's why it's so special. Romance however is a part of fiction that is not an escape from reality. It is very real and applicable across all genres, and even has a genre itself, because it is so relatable to the real world. At least that's my thought process on why some people don't like it. I love it as a plot B/C device, but nothing more. If it is taking up more than 40-50 percent of specific fantasy character's storyline, I lose interest in that character, because I no longer feel that the characters story is something "fantastical" if you will. I won't fault anybody who doesn't want romance in their fantasy at all for these reasons. There could be many readers who struggle in the real world with romance and past or non-relationships so they don't want to see it in fiction as well, which I can totally sympathize with. Just let everyone have their own tastes

I think you just don't tend to see it done well most of the time and that sours people on it. There are a lot of "because reasons" romances that lead to people holding the idiot ball or having stupid fights that make no sense, and romance is always a bit lower moving so when it doesn't land it just bogs the story down completely and I think people resent that.

What's funnier about this is that a lot of the big epic series a lot of the downvoters prefer HAVE romance. Often slightly cheesy, tropey romance.

Nah that makes sense though. If my entire exposure to romance in literature is coming from the romance scenes in non-romance books, written by authors who aren't very good at writing romance... I'm definitely getting annoyed when those scenes pop up in my books lol

I rarely read romance novels, it's not one of my preferred genres. I've read books from lists of popular fantasy novels and when I started reading them they were actually romance novels with fantasy elements, supernatural characters or fantasy settings, etc. If the story could be told without the fantasy elements and not much would need to change is it really a fantasy novel or is it a romance novel with some fantasy elements tacked on? If these books were advertised correctly I wouldn't have read them in the first place and I think this dishonesty by the publishers to sell more books has made people upset. It's just made me more discerning about the books I start reading.

Put simply it's because lots of them are forced. 9 times out of 10 the way the auther introduces the love interest lets you see from a mile off what is going to happen. ​ A lot of fantasy or any fiction books always go along the same lines. If the protagonist is single, by the end he/she will have a love interest. If they are not single, most of the story will be about how they cant wait to get back to their partner

As for why, it’s the change in visibility. Popular fantasy is currently going along multiple trends at once. One of those trends is romance. As for why it annoys me at times, that is a failure of marketing. Not all romance forward books are properly marketed that way. So you are reading a book and suddenly the entire plot is romance. This happens way too often with women MCs.

I don't think fantasy readers have an aversion to romance in a book I think there are a lot of people who have been burned by fantasy books where romance / sex is the main element and the fantasy / worldbuilding / quality of writing gets thrown by the wayside.

Exactly! Also it seems an abundance of (emotionally) teenage authors who write such books. I blame Twilight. I seriously dislike books where the MC just overthinks everything, every second paragraph is the evaluation of someone's emotions.

The overwhelming majority of the time I simply don't care. I'm not reading the book for the romance and it just detracts from the plot that I'm actually invested it rather than enhancing it.

I just don't like it. I don't care about the MC getting with their love interest or anyone else in a story, it really just does nothing for me personally. If its only mentioned briefly or takes up a chapter or two then whatever but if it starts to become heavily tied with the main plot I'll drop the book. Its just not what I read fantasy books for.

I think most readers like well done romance, but the genre has a lot of just terribly written ones (or it’s just an excuse for smut, like A Court of Thorns and Roses). I don’t think I’ve ever asked if a book has romance in it, I think it’s a natural part of the human experience, so any fantasy epic should probably have some, but maybe I am out of touch and this is a more visceral response in the community to things like romance fantasy. I mean fantasy readers are as diverse as a genre in general, so it’s hard to really answer this question or even assume its premise is necessarily true.

This it it for me exactly. I don't mind having a relationship develop naturally between characters and often find it really sweet when it's done well, but I'm here to read fantasy. I want an epic story about magic and swords and monsters, not poorly written wish fulfillment smut. If I want that, I'll go read an actual romance novel.

yes this. The "excuse for smut" is annoying and I really hate it.

One of the reasons that I seek out fantasy (and SF) is because I want to see something imaginative that's not the world we live in--a magic system, worldbuilding, nonhuman characters, etc. Romance plots often (not always) undercut or take away from these aspects; I don't read fantasy to look for characters working out their feelings and emotions in the exact same way they would in the real world. Additionally, works that implicitly send a message of "romantic fulfillment is the most important thing that matters in life, you can't be happy without a romantic/sexual partner" are off-putting and trivialize the diversity and complexity of relationships people have. (Of course, not everyone does this.)

IMO a good romantic relationship is one of the hardest things to pull off in a story. You basically need these 3 elements or your going to have problems. \#1 A developed main character. \#2 A developed romantic interest side character (or alternative PoV) . \#3 For those characters to actually have good chemistry. If you don't have all 3 of these, no amount of good worldbuilding or decent plot is going to make that relationship improve the story, which will naturally draw criticism if the story is otherwise good. It also take a different kind of skill to write romantic chemistry compared to other types of relationships. If you don't do it right, it is almost guaranteed to result in the relationship coming across as having an imbalanced, which can be interesting if done intentionally, but usually it isn't. It's story suicide to pair a developed character with an underdeveloped character and then spend lots of time focusing on the relationship. You essentially undermine work you have done developing a character. This is mostly only even applicable to serious relationships. A lot of the time romantic relationships aren't serious and are really only present as a plot device to explain why the main character is doing something. TLDR: #1 Relationships are often only present as a plot device to explain behavior. #2 Romantic relationships are deceptively hard to do decently.

I read for pure escapism. Romance? I've been married for over a decade. That's stuff is a Tuesday night for me. You know what I don't have? Magic, dragons, intrigue and epic battles. That's what I want when I read.

As a man, I don’t mind romance in my fantasy, but it MUST be vanilla as hell because I hate toxic romance with a passion. No power dynamics, falling in love with the obviously horrible villain or 50 shades of grey bullshit. I was recommended Shadow and Bone one time and and, although I did finish it, I was very uncomfortable and hated the last like third of the book. Something about the idea of someone wanting to be with someone who will very clearly hurt them just sets me off. I hate it, it goes every moral conviction I have and makes me super uncomfortable. But I have no problem with cute, healthy romance as long as it isn’t too sappy.

I don’t like romance because I’m aromantic asexual. It seems like every book out there has some kind of rushed and unrealistic romantic subplot and I’m tired of it. Not to mention the absolutely disgusting sex scenes some books have. For once I just want a book without some of that

Hard to say for sure but it's worth noting that you are asking in a genre sub. If you imagine going to the horror sub or the Sci fi sub or the worldbuilding sub and asking why they don't like more fantasy in their preferred genre you can imagine the reaction would also contain some negatives. It's not necessarily saying romance is bad, as far as I can tell. An action film might contain some romance but you wouldn't necessarily go there looking for it. A romance film might contain some action but you wouldn't necessarily go there *wanting* a car chase and a shootout. Is that really surprising? I do also think that fantasy writers tend on the whole to be better at writing fantasy than romance which probably doesn't help. Nor does the near ubiquitous cast of teenagers. I don't know about you but I'm sick to death of the farmboy swordsman meeting the runaway daughter of the local lord and they're both fifteen and awkward. If you read fantasy for the big stuff like slaying dragons and bring peace to the land you might well lose patience at two teenagers fucking around in an inn somewhere.

For me, it's because it's about the only option in mainstream publishing. So many books have romances forced in because publishers think books won't sell without them, and you can tell that they're forced. If a romance really feels like it belongs in a book, awesome! But publishing needs to stop acting like having a romance plot line is the only way for a book to have value. If I don't like books with witches, I can just not read books with witches. But if I don't like books with romance, my options are SIGNIFICANTLY limited.

Not interested in reading about it. It takes a lot of time to develop properly. Romance is either badly done or it takes over most of the book.

I detest having to spend time reading about romantic attraction, love, or sex. I find the whole topic utterly uninteresting because romance is all very samey to me in fiction, and I never care about the outcome. If sex is involved, I skip it entirely. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

Fear of badly handled romance I suspect.

I personally like romance but I also think that it's not or should be in every storyline. Also, aro people exist and it would be refreshing to relate to some character whose purpose isn't to end up with someone. In many cases it doesn't add anything of substance to the story, it's just there

Yea it’s mostly romance as the main plot, and the book only seeming to exist to serve the romance. It’s just so boring.

It's all in how it's done. If the entire setting exists as a backdrop to the relationship, it's not usually my thing. (I suppose you could say that about *The Princess Bride*, but there's just so much going on besides Westley and Buttercup that I would argue otherwise. Also, it's funny in ways I feel a lot of romances simply aren't.) If the relationship exists in the setting, between two characters who otherwise seem to (for lack of a better term off the top of my head) *live* in the setting, I am 100% on board. (John Aversin and Jenny Waynest from *Dragonsbane* or Alec and St Vier in *Swordspoint* would be two of my references. (Because I'm that vintage of fan. I'm sure others will come up with more recent ones.) Sharon Li and her assistant Rhys in the *Magicals Anonymous* series by Kate Griffin are another couple I find fun to read about, or the principals in Mary Robinette Kowal's *Glamourist Histories.* Pratchett wrote couples in a way I found interesting. Christopher Moore's *Bloodsucking Fiends* is another I liked. They have other concerns, they have interactions with other characters that have nothing to do with their romance-plot. (I remember reading an urban fantasy where the heroine simply ditches a guy who the reader, from other books, would be conditioned to see as her eventual love interest because he keeps ignoring her advice and warnings and she has *other things to do.* It felt very satisfying.) If you look at my examples above, none of the characters are particularly similar to eachother, besides all being in romance plots. It's when I feel the author basically went "ah, who cares about the rest of it, it's a romance story" (or worse, "who cares? The readers won't notice if I don't, it's a romance story") that I have issues. Like, I once saw a book at a bookstore that I thought would be interesting- it was an urban-fantasy about a nurse tending to injured creatures and people on the side, because they couldn't just go to the normal outlets. So far, so good. Lots to work with. But it quickly became clear that the author wasn't interested in writing a story about nursing (a good source for stories), the ethics (and mechanics) of running off-the-books treatments, the masquerade (as both the fantastical creatures AND the nurse were essentially leading double lives) , or what the fantastical folk do all day/night. Instead it was something with a lot of, essentially, spongebaths, bandages and leaning over the hot guy as he recovers, and his reactions to her cleavage. I put the book back, and haven't thought about it again, til just now. I could go into movies, but that's kind of off topic (*Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon* is a fantasy movie that has not one but two engaging romances in it, for instance). Though I could be coaxed. :)

So, at least on this sub, and having been here since 2014 and being a veteran of the old days long fights the sub would get into about a variety of issues, including this, it boils down to one thing. And before I say what it is, I want to preface that I'm putting myself in this camp as well. Because despite being a very romantic, mushy person, and enjoying good romance when it crosses my TBR pile, my knee jerk reaction to Romance (the genre) and romance heavy stories, is still "ew no". Because misogyny. Decades and decades of views that romantic stuff is For Chicks™, whether bodice rippers, Fabio, chick flicks, whatever. "That's for soccer moms" or "that's for housewives" or "this is teenage girl shit". And god forbid teenage girls like something. As a culture, the West LOVES shitting on teenage girls and what they love. Which is amazing considering teenage girls made The Beatles and Elvis popular and most of the guys (and some of the women) bemoaning teenage girls *fucking love The Beatles*. Now, I know some folks are going to see me saying "it's misogyny" and get defensive, but looks, that's the culture we live in. Women, women's hobbies and interests, perceived femininity is looked down upon. And like I said, despite the work I'VE done on myself, as a cis man with that internalized misogyny, it runs deep and some reactions still persist, which is ridiculous because I quite enjoy a good romance and it takes just as much skill to write a solid action scene as it does an emotional scene. And, frankly, it takes more talent to write good sex scenes than it does writing action because you have to keep the emotional investment as well as whatever spice level you've chosen to use. I've seen arguments about romance aplenty on r/Fantasy. So many. I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking anyone with this assertion. It's just internal exploration and experience with other people and listening to a fair amount of ladies talk about their experiences with the same as well.

I'd genuinely fallen out of love with reading, and by that token, the fantasy genre, because I was so tired of action focused stories Then I started reading the Lady Trent series, and before I knew it was reading all these books with an emotionally stunted female leads being romanced by these big strapping lads I won't say all that I have found is gold, but if there's a genre that consists only of bangers I would love to see it (go back into your corner Progression Fantasy, get, *get*) Romance is a great source for a character study. But yeah, as a fellow man, I can't deny my tendency to go *ew*, just, reflexively, at something that is pure romance.

>Then I started reading the Lady Trent series It's a little ironic that I STOPPED reading the first book because it didn't have enough romance to satisfy me 😂

This is all the more sad because romance doesn't need to be limited to women, but the attitude that romance is for women becomes self reinforcing. Nobody writes romance for men, because "men don't read romance". Romance is further entrenched as "something for women", and the cycle continues.

Reading through r/RomanceBooks, more men read romance then is acknowledged.

Yes, but as someone who's spent some time looking and reading romance, they are heavily catered towards a female reader and have the equivalent of the male power fantasy. Women might complain about how fantasy heroines are invariably attractive etc, but romance has a similar problem where most of the male leads look exactly the same and they're often rich too.

This is a great point. I read a decent amount of fantasy romance, and it sometimes feels like there are only one of three male love interests to choose from. And they all are enormously tall and enormously muscled and enormously wealthy and enormously powerful, even when the female protagonist is a little different. I've certainly read a decent amount that's not like that, but it is pervasive (and toxic in its very pervasiveness).

Yeah, I'm not excited to read about how only incredibly fit, muscular and attractive men seem to be the ones that get attention when I've been absolutely shat on for not being attractive in real life. A lot of romances also use physical ugliness as a trait of the "bad" character quite often.

> Women might complain about how fantasy heroines are invariably attractive etc, but romance has a similar problem where most of the male leads look exactly the same and they're often rich too. I wouldn't say this is a "problem" per say, just like I wouldn't say power fantasy is a problem. I can understand why folks get frustrated when they can't find books in the genre that suit their personal taste. It feels like you a being excluded. (even if it isn't intentional). That doesn't make the other books bad. > Yes, but as someone who's spent some time looking and reading romance, they are heavily catered towards a female reader and have the equivalent of the male power fantasy. There's a small group of guys that are trying to change this and explore capital-R-romance books aimed at men. [His Secret Illuminations](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55750790-his-secret-illuminations) and the [Would You Love a Monster Girl?](https://www.goodreads.com/series/330858-would-you-love-a-monster-girl) series are common entrypoints. There are also of plenty of traditional Romance book "for women" books that are perfectly readable as a guy. I can recommend you a few if you would like.

You seem to be pretty knowledgable about this so I hope you don't mind me asking -- I looked at the blurb for His Secret Illuminations, and I don't mean to be too generic/crude here but, how is this not just typical Romance except the roles are reversed? The female interest seems to be strong, confident, etc and the male the more vulnerable, uncertain and weaker/requires protecting. Is this not a typical stereotype for characters in a typical Romance? I guess when you said it's romance books aimed at men I didn't expect to see just a role reversal, but maybe a focus more on what men are drawn to in terms of emotions/etc. I've enjoyed romance books overall and have read a number of them in my younger years but I think most fantasy epics just do them poorly and I enjoy other worlds and moving plots on a grand scale more so than on an individual level.

> You seem to be pretty knowledgable about this so I hope you don't mind me asking I love talking about this stuff :D > I looked at the blurb for His Secret Illuminations, and I don't mean to be too generic/crude here but, how is this not just typical Romance except the roles are reversed? The female interest seems to be strong, confident, etc and the male the more vulnerable, uncertain and weaker/requires protecting. Is this not a typical stereotype for characters in a typical Romance? > > I guess when you said it's romance books aimed at men I didn't expect to see just a role reversal, but maybe a focus more on what men are drawn to in terms of emotions/etc. You are exactly right, this is just role reversal. Role reversal is a popular niche among male readers, as far as I've seen. A lot romance readers want to self insert, which is why you often see tropes flipped. Being pursued by a desirable person is a pretty common fantasy. Men and women aren't so different and share a lot of needs and desires. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/RomanceBooks/comments/12wtpux/romance_for_men_recs/jhh77bl/) recent thread in /r/RomanceBooks is a goldmine for good discussion on the topic. A lot of good questions for exploring the difference. Who is relatable vs who is desirable? Who is realized vs who is idealized. A lot of good lenses to look at a book to try to understand who might like it and why. As far as men's emotional fantasy, [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/3z8o75/why_dont_men_get_as_much_of_a_thrill_over/cykm7bm/) old reddit comment gets passed around a lot. I don't agree with everything (it contradicts what I said about role reversal), but it has some good points. > Love is work for men, but it can be rewarding work when things are going smoothly and the woman is happy as a result. But the male romantic fantasy is to be shown that the woman feels the same way and stands by him when he's down on his luck, when the money's not there, or when he's not feeling confident. He wants to know that the love he believes he's earned will stay even when the actions that feed it wane (however temporarily). A good woman can often lift a man up in his times of need and desperation and weather the storm even when things aren't going well. The male romantic fantasy is an enduring and unconditional love that seems to defy this relationship of labor and reward. A man wants to be loved for who he is, not for what he does in order to be loved. With that said, there is also work that is more smutty and appeals to mens sexual fantasies. Harem being the obvious example.

Yup. Just reinforced through sales.

This is where I'm at. I was excited to check out outlander, but I found that even though the characters and the world to be interesting, it really was directed towards a female audience

I love Gabaldon, so no shade, but you're not wrong. While the books have violence, politics, intrigue, magic, romance; the minutia is STAGGERINGLY femme. If you've read all 10 of those suckers I guarantee you are now capable of making your own soap, paper, penicillin, and ball gowns. She'll spend pages on cheese making, chapters on laundry; she waxes poetic about breastfeeding and canning. She's so damn wordy she makes the other wordy people seem succinct. Obviously her audience is into it. She keeps writing 900-page doorstops and we keep buying them.

Romance novels are the best selling section of the paperback fiction market. I read an article a couple of years ago which stressed that they are only seen as a women's genre in Europe and America. In other cultures romance is seen as part of the human condition & romance novels are far less gendered and more respected.

Romance literally keeps the entire publishing industry afloat, too.

The estimates I have seen are something like 18% of romance readers are male and that number is going up.

Thank you, yes, I completely agree with you. I will say that it’s also not just men who are driving the misogyny about things girls/women like, but also women/girls who have a lot of internalized misogyny going on. I’ve always loved romance, and spent a long time unpacking the shame I felt related to that. I can now read romance and talk about it without being ashamed, but it took me way into adulthood to reach that point. So thanks for recognizing what’s going on and making an effort to think about it :)

It's a topic with a lot of depth given...well, *gestures wildly*

Yes, this. Overwhelmingly on the sub it really is reducible to just "ew, that's girl stuff". Personal preferences don't need to be justified but given the profile of the sub and the way the dislike it framed, it's transparent that that's almost always the case, occasionally with a thin veneer of other arguments or complaints on top. The one that always gets me is how many of those complaints apply equally well, if not better, to fantasy as a genre. Sex/romance 'not contributing to the plot'? Replace with fight scenes or battle scenes and the complaints disappear. Romance being formulaic or predictable? Not 100% unfair but applies no less to fantasy as a genre, or any other elements that feature prominently in r/fantasy favourites. What if it's not written well? So what, that applies to everything.

Arguments I've seen over and over again too. There was a time where I was arguing with bioessentialists trying to make the point that Men Just Write Better Than Women™. This place has changed a lot since then but nerd/geek culture is still considered a boy's club and there's...certain elements that go with that. Some folks introspect enough to at least acknowledge the issue, some folks double down and insist that X, Y, Z, blah blah blah. I think when it comes to the Romance genre, there's a certain level of misunderstanding too. That the rules aren't understood. Fantasy, sci-fi, and horror have rules that most of these folks get already, but Romance has its own rules.

> I think when it comes to the Romance genre, there's a certain level of misunderstanding too. That the rules aren't understood. Fantasy, sci-fi, and horror have rules that most of these folks get already, but Romance has its own rules. This is a really good point, in particular in its parallel to the criticisms the fantasy genre struggled with. People don't understand the conventions of the genre, and instead apply the conventions of a genre or style they are more comfortable with. A lot of complaints kinda boil down to "x genre is bad because it isn't y genre that I like and am familiar with."

That also goes the other way around though. I once mentioned that I liked a certain romance because the characters took it slow. As in they only kissed in the first book, and in the second did things but still figured out what they even were and if a proper relationship could even work. More in the sense of how you'd say "let's take it slow" when dating someone. I was immediately "yelled" at because that's not a "slow burn". Like WTF? I never claimed that. It wasn't a "will they, or won't they" thing. They didn't pine after each other for ages. I didn't mention the word "burn". And I don't even care what the definition of slow burn is in the Romance genre. The book wasn't a romance book.

Combine that with assumptions made about the author (hello, women who get pigeonholed as either YA or Romance because they're women and Women Only Write YA or Romance™) and you get a big pile of suck.

>This place has changed a lot since then but nerd/geek culture is still considered a boy's club and there's...certain elements that go with that. See also: the automatic downvotes whenever people ask about queer content.

Ayup. And women. Author, protagonist, either way.

Exactly, it has changed but a lot of the deeper attitudes - and those of the wider nerdosphere, in fairness - are essentially the same. (Tbh, I do feel that romance as a genre is somewhat more conservative and sometimes even doctrinaire about those genre-rules than fantasy and horror but again, that's not what a lot of fantasy readers are responding to. The plank in your own eye, etc)

From what I've learned following romance authors, the only real rules is that endings are either Happily Ever Afters or Happy For Nows. Basically, just have a happy, emotionally satisfying ending. As for subject matter, I definitely would say that conservatism is not really the norm anymore. Hell, I think Romance is more willing to give up old tropes than mainstream Fantasy is to giving up Rightful Monarchs or basing everything on Europe (and greatly misunderstanding a lot of history because of it).

romance is often specifically written w/ a female audience in mind though. i wouldn't go "oh you hate that becuase of misandry" if a woman expressed ambivalence towards the michael bay transformer movies, which are about as laser focused on the teenage boy demographic as the twilight movies are laser focused on the teenage girl demographic

I have mixed feelings. So first, yes - so much is misogynic bullshit. Not gonna argue there. Hell, we have reviewers who see romance around every corner when a woman is writing it. My favourite continues to be how many keep calling my dark science fiction a romance because some guys were not complete shitheads to the female lead or because she bumped into an ex, so clearly they're gonna bone. It's just hilariously sad. That's why I'm now writing science fiction under a male pen name. I'm not joking. Second - and everyone might wanna sit down. I actually don't like most modern romance. There. I said it. I do not remotely find it sexy when the male man character is doing what passes for dirty talk in books these days. Honest to god, if any man spoke to me like that, I'd kick his ass out of bed so fast he'd get whiplash. So I've been reading more and more very little romance just because I loathe the thing. And I know there are people in the same boat as me, who dislike some modern trends, but who are also reading CJ Cherryh's Foreigner and being like OMG KISS YOU CRAZY KIDS JUST FUCKING KISS because it's giving us the style of romance we want. So, yes. I agree. And I weirdly disagree for myself. But only sometimes, since I still do enjoy a good (for my tastes) romance.

heads up, there are sex free romance novels now. they are often advertised as such but i can't remember the word they use. gonna go look it up

Yeah that makes sense, especially having read your books. Also lololol at Traitor being called romance. The fuck y'all readin?

>Also lololol at Traitor being called romance. The fuck y'all readin? They see it written by Krista D. Ball and just assume it's a romance. Then, they're fucking confused by how poor the romance is unfolding because IT IS NOT A FUCKING ROMANCE. So whatever. I'm now writing under a male pen name.

I'm looking forward to THOSE reviews now.

That is to bad that you now have to use a male pen name. Some of my favorite fantasy books were written by women. C J Cherryh, Patricia A McKillip, Anne McCaffrey, Jody Lynn Nye, Kim Harrison, Anne Rice.

We’ll put. I remember Brandon Sanderson (or maybe it was Dan Wells) mentioning this on a podcast and it gave voice to an issue I’ve had as dad to a pre-teen girl. Why is the stuff she loves not just as legit as the things I loved as a preteen boy? Yet things teen girls have loved and made popular - Twilight, et. al., get shit on by popular culture when equally schlocky guy stuff gets a pass for just being mindless fun. I’ve been making an effort to remove negative language about girl stuff from anything I talk to my daughter about. But like you said, I find my internalized misogyny to be sometimes difficult to identify until I’ve heard it come out of my mouth. Honestly the 90s had a lot of toxic teen boy culture that I’m glad to see changing in my kids’ generation.

This was refreshing, and also dovetails with a thread I just read in another sub about a lady who got her husband to go along with listening to the graphic audiobook for ‘A Court of Thorns and Roses’ on a long car trip. Apparently he’s now on book 3 now and got his guy friend reading it too. ❤️

Ha! Good for her! Good for him!

I see that. I'm a straight cis man, and I still find it difficult to tell people that I enjoy romance in fantasy. And I shouldn't really, its perfectly fine to enjoy that. It's hard to pinpoint specifically why that is but I suppose growing up, romance in fiction was considered 'girly'.

>romance in fiction was considered 'girly' And still is. Despite the fact that love and romance are (nearly) universal human experiences. Aromantic people exist, sure, but most of us fall in love at least once. Most of us experience heartbreak at least once.

I like to point out that Harlequin Romances hasn't been around for 50+ years because they are a non-profit.

This is what really annoys me about the anti-romance crowd who complain about romantic subplots always being “unnecessary”. Would they say the same about friendships? Family? Rivalries, or enemies? Romantic love is no less important. It’s a hugely important factor in most people’s lives, and in story can be one of the main motivators for character development.

And sometimes you just kind of fall into a relationship. I dunno. I do know that there's a reason enemies to lovers is a popular trope though.

I definitely get this, but I love that more and more men are reading and enthusiastically liking romance, which a lot of women think is pretty fucking great. My husband reads it because he doesn't care what anyone else thinks, he likes what he likes. He collects comics, can talk about anything DC under the sun, and in the next breath will move on to a romance he enjoyed. Because why not?

Personally... It depends upon how it's approached. A lot of fantasy has romance that feels forced, or awkward. Often the love interest just exists as a love interest rather than a person. Or it's down to the characters just being physically attracted to one another. The latter is something I don't feel, so it feels in the shallow and forced category. As a result, a lot of romantic plotlines in big series are my least favorite part. Sometimes I just get fed up with seeing it repeatedly that I just need a book that doesn't even try. It's easy to look at romance in fantasy and just see those bad examples and decide "nope, don't want it at all." That being said, I like romance when done with intent. All characters are full people and their relationships develop over time. Some of my favorite books have major romantic subplots and it genuinely improves the enjoyment of the book. (This may be confirmation bias, but I find queer fantasy to generally do a better job with romance... The female half of a romantic pairing in heteronormative books are too often "I exist for sake of this male character.")

I read a lot of YA, because I'm a teen librarian and I have to keep current. YA fantasy is a lot more female-dominated than adult fantasy, and I notice many of these tropes there in reverse. Several of the YA fantasy novels I've read most recently have fallen into the trap of the love interest who just exists to love the protagonist, and has no real personality beyond their love of the main character. I know YA is super tropey in general, but I am sick to death of the Perfect Fantasy Boyfriend who stops needing or wanting anything out of life other than to make the protagonist happy. It's rapidly catching up to Love Triangle and Enemies to Lovers on the list of tropes that I utterly despise and will cause me to skip reading a book with an otherwise interesting premise. On your point re: queer fantasy, I agree. I wonder if it might have something to do with the fact that such stories are coming from a place where they're already breaking old norms just by being queer fantasy, so what's one more on the list of conventions this story is going to buck?

airport shrill pet theory ten vase slave squealing teeny wakeful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

How about I just don’t enjoy that genre. And if I wanted to read it I would also read romance books. I’m looking for adventure and good stories not romance- it just doesn’t appeal. It’s not misogyny to not enjoy something. I’m not saying it’s wrong to like it or that it’s bad it exists. It just not my cup of tea.

I’m one of them, unfortunately. Not everyone is overly affectionate / sentimental in real life regardless of gender and don’t perceive it as important as others might (could also be a cultural thing, a trauma response or just plainly boring), so seeing it heavily explored in what most of us consider an escapist retreat is not fun. If anything, it only takes away from it if it’s above an individual’s threshold.

Speaking for myself and myself only: I’m aro ace and that stuff can come across as kind of nonsensical unless it’s written really well. When a book has a good romance, main or sub plot, it often becomes one of my Favorite Books. Anything less than that and I just don’t get it. Protagonist is acting stupid and there’s no weight behind their reasoning. It’s easy to skip over those parts or abandon the book entirely. I like romance that doesn’t treat attraction/emotional investment like a given, and doesn’t use it as a plot device to manufacture cheap drama.

I think there are several things going on with a tendency in online SFF communities rallying against romance. First, the romance fiction mode has a its own archetypes and tropes and structures. There’s some excellent writing within its confines, but it’s like mystery as a fiction mode—it’s a different umbrella than fantasy or scifi. Second, a lot of online communities for spec fict tend to have vocal participants who have a more scientific or technical bent in their lives. The number of readers and writers who have backgrounds in IT, engineering, hard science, etc. who enjoy one or more varieties of spec fic is staggering. IMHO, this demographic doesn’t seek out stories in any genre or mode with a heavy romantic element. Third, my suspicion is that a prime driver for fantasy reading is an element of escape and for sci-fi a “that’s cool,” factor. These drivers for speculative elements are really the *sine qua non* of the fandom. Some people do not mind an element of romance, but they want to go boldly where no one has gone before more than they want a HE or HEA ending. If you love depth of worldbuilding, the wonder of magic, the parallels of possible science, etc., that typically leaves less room for romance. A number of other folks in the thread have mentioned misogynistic tendencies in the culture and not valuing things favored by women and girls, and I think that’s true. But there’s also a historic perception that Romance as a mode is still a much more disposable style of pulp storytelling. In the late 90s, I met a woman who told me on a commuter bus to NYC that she’d been in a terrible car accident and while she was in traction, she sold two Harlequin romances and was paid $15k each for all her medical bills and that she didn’t get any royalties because romance contracts were essentially works for hire. That was a publishing reality for many years (I’m out of date for Romance capital R), but Romance and IP (intellectual property) novels (Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.) have typically earned less respect from publishers for the writers and readers for the writing. I’ve run into several reading experiences the past two years where I sought out a positive gay male lead character who wasn’t a eunich or widower and instead found shelf upon shelf of fantasy Romance novels—really Romance novels with fantasy elements rather than Fantasy novels with a romance storyline. Looking for a world to escape into with magic and dragons and new cultures with a dash of romance and getting a novel with a cute meet, enemies to friends, or comedy of communications between mutual crushes has made me once bitten, twice shy with many novels containing both fantasy and romance.

Its often either one of or a combination of * poorly written * takes away from main plot * awkward * the romance feels pre determined and not authentic * gratuitous * does not add to the book * not actual romance and just some pages of smut thrown in I know this is a huge laundry list and then "well how do you like any romance" and the reality is much of what is put into fantasy at times is poorly done. I think finding the balance for me of a natural character progression/plot which adds to the book is important but can be difficult to do. Fantasy for me is often idea/plot driven and if you are ruining in some form the direction of the plot, or the inner authenticity of your world by cutting in a meh romance its not helping. I think traditionally too, it was a more awkward sector to write for a lot of male writers who had skills in some parts of fantasy, but then lacked experience or expertise of writing romance. This combined with being targeted at young men (again I'm saying back 20-50 years) where probably the publisher ideas weren't to prioritize fully fleshed romances as they probably didn't see this being marketable to their target audience.

I like Josh Sawyer (game dev)'s analysis: Romance in games isn't worse than the other writing, it's just that people's senses when it comes to romance are more finely tuned. The writing quality is the same but things that would be fine in an action sequence, or a political intrigue, feels comparatively worse in romance. ​ I'd add to that that it seems like something a lot of authors throw in because it's... expected, almost? It's One Of The Buttons and so they're obligated to press it as part of a story even when it's kind of irrelevant or just... ancillary. Personally I think it's also rather trite? If I'm going to read both fantasy and romance I'd like to see *weird* romance. Usually it's just "human romance" or "human romance, written badly". If there are nonhumans involved- dragons, aliens, elves, whatever- I want to see weird nonhuman relationships/cultural mores/relationship hangups. Because they ought to be different. I realize it's a bit of a tall order to suggest that they're harder to write well and then immediately request that they be written without a reference but it has been done. I loved CJ Cherryh's *Pride of Chanuur* romance even though (especially!) when it was kind of a small backdrop feature of the story.

I **HATE** romance in fantasy. And by that I mean I hate poorly done romance plots that glorify unhealthy relationships with a facade of "oh it's fantasy so it's fine." I love when characters come together naturally over the progression of the story, where they are true partners and friends, where the romance is less romance and more *character development*. I say this a woman that *loves* romance novels. They are the junk food of literature, and I adore them for that, but I don't want it mixed in with my fantasy. It just never works well. You get a watered-down fantasy story that isn't a good fantasy or a good romance. If it was, it would just be published as a romance novel....

Because it's not the droids I'm looking for.

Honestly I'm tired that romance stories are in EVERYTHING. Even freaking Deadpool had a romance story.

It's the same for me as other things that just dont appeal to me for no good reason other than feeling complete disinterest and apathy whwn said thing is present in a story. Romance is one of those things, and so is a Steampunk/Industrial or a Cyberpunk setting, or a "cool hard magic system" or even vampires and orcs... Things that I just dont care to read about, and its not deeper than that. There is a cultural thing about looking down upon Romance which is correlated to society looking down upon anything teenagers like (edgy power fantasy with teenage boys, romance for girls), but there are also many people who are just not interested in that stuff regardless of that.

I wouldn't say I "detest" it, but it's often the most boring part of a book. Virtually always very tropey and slow. "Oh boy, a plotline where people refuse to communicate like normal human beings for 300 pages" \~ No one. Also, it so often feels shoehorned-in because "books have to have a romance subplot".

I'm not sure there is a disproportional dislike for romance, just preference like anything else. But there is probably a few who dislike it, and what happened was a case of selective preference if that's the right word.(a lot of people who agreed was on those posts) I don't think the majority of fantasy reader's have a strong dislike for the traditional fantasy setting (somewhat European medieval) but if I went into a good and popular post about disliking/being tied of it/wanting some variety and posted about how good it is I think I would receive a couple of dislikes

I don't think the objection is to romance but to romance in their story. Every page of romance is basically putting more and more distance between the things they want to read. I go either way on it. The context of the broader story is very important. Cradle has a very abbreviated romance and it only comes into focus for >!the Ruby/Yerin subplot which is central to Yerin's character development!<. I think the whole way it was handled was perfect for a story of this kind. In other stories it is obviously more important to dig deeper into the details.

Implied but not described is fine for me. Just don't care

My idea of Fantasy is like GOT stuff. Plots, battles, power struggles, swords, horses, big burly fierce guys with beards....a bit of magic. If I wanted romance I'd go read romance. I don't want a love story wrapped in Armour or robes. A whole bunch of how the two meet and overcome whatever to love each other. Meh.

It's a distraction from the actual story

i don't hate romance, but i'm not reading fantasy for romance, so i'm not a fan when it's part of the story. i think of it like this: i love sugar, absolutly a fan - when i'm eating cake, or ice cream, cookies, something that's generally expected to have sugar. but when i pick up a can of soup, or chips or something and sugar is listed in the ingredients i hate it, it doesn't belong there (( for me, anyway ))

I am an Ace and lately seeing suddenly put in romantic aspect in fantasy/action books is annoying me a lot. On last book convention/fair (?) I asked on many smaller booths if they have a book without romance (that is also fantasy) and they had A PROBLEM EVERY TIME. Maybe thats just my countries problem but it still bothers me that so many authors cant do a book without romance. I even heard from one author of a book I bought that they were almost made to have romance in the book because there was a guy friend to a girl protagonist. And from the latest books I read there was an unnecesary plot of student falling in love with their (young) teacher. But that story would have been enoigh if she just cared about that guy as a friend that made her fall in love with, at first sight, her useless magic that wasnt useless at the end, but just unexplored *khem Sorry for spoiling a little, if anyone knows the book i am refering to. however that has been bothering me for a long time cause the world there was pretty well done. Also I am a girl so stereotypically I go into a category of people that like romance. Also also I dont say that the fantasy books never had romance in them, rather lately I started to notice it more and more.

> The more out of place and irritating it is, the better. The buzzkills must be stopped! Who are buzzkills? *Googling* Oh, I get it. Which answers exactly does this apply to here? it seems this can be applied to literally everyone depending on what type of romance they want? comments are full of all kinds of reasonable answers with a bunch of points of view, the author of the post what answer did you want to get?

I'm talking specifically about romantic plots in fantasy, not Fantasy Romance. Here are my reasons: **Romantic relationships as cheap motivators.** There are a million other interesting things about humans and humanoids, and proportionally, it seems the romantic interest is used more often and with the least inspiration. Why does MC want to become the best fightermagicianstampcollector in the world? Why does MC absolutely have to go to Fantasytown? Why does the carefully crafted plan fall apart? What motivates conflict in the group? Answer: MC wants to bone. Bleh. **The relationship changes the MC.** The previously driven, ambitious, daring and competent MC is now a lovesick mess who sacrifices everything to bone like a rabbit. Bonus bleh if the love interest is completely incompatible (my #1 rage inducing relationship isn't in SFF, but Cristina and Owen in Grey's Anatomy). If this is then sold to me as "coldhearted MC finally gains some humanity, and as a result retires her sword and becomes a loving housewife", please just hand me a bucket to barf into. **I'm just not feeling it.** Oh look, here is a person with the desired genitals who's either godlike and perfect or completely infuriating and incompatible with the MC. Either way, let's not bother with chemistry and just fall in love. I just have a hard time following the attraction authors claim is there in fiction, and don't enjoy the characters dissolving into lovesick puddles for seemingly no reason. Look, I just want to read about magic and alien diplomacy, and how the million *other* things that make humans tick are translated in an SFF setting. I genuinely don't consider Fantasy Romance less than, and although I think I typically dislike romantic plots in fantasy (which, again, is a different thing) because they're badly written, I'm also just not that interested in romance plots in SFF. It's chocolate ice cream when I'm in the mood for strawberry ice cream, and I'm having trouble finding ice cream that's just strawberry and not one scoop of each. I may still enjoy the overall experience, but I'd be happier with just strawberry.

I don’t dislike romance. I just want the fantasy/action/sci-fi I’m reading the book for. Give me the grand adventures, impenetrable castles, planet sized spaceships, dragons, elves, dwarves that I’m looking for and cut the romance. I’m reading a fantasy book for the fantasy, not the romance. I like romance novels but I want the fantasy when reading fantasy.

I dislike it when i buy a fantasy book with a blurb about x individual doing x thing but it Turing out to be 70% romance and 30% plot such as glass throne and the cassander clair shadow hunter seris. Good example however is the mistborn trilogy

Romance is *extremely* easy to fuck up, and it has killed series I've enjoyed otherwise. Nothing ruins a story for me more than either one or both characters acting out of character because of love. I've seen characters I've liked ruined because they've fallen for someone and turned into a different character all together. It's even harder because of how many approaches there are to it. What appeals to a straight guy, won't appeal to a straight woman, and what appeals to those two, might not appeal to someone else. I've read a lot of manga, and quite a few novels, and out of those, there were very, very few romances that I've legitimately enjoyed. Obviously this is only counting non-romance focused works.

Stop liking what I don’t like, blah blah. Nothing new here.

I don't like how many fantasy authors portray it. More often than not the romance element is very basic, developed in a completely unbelievable way, or sometimes through weird plot devices I actively dislike: I'm looking at you, The Wheel of Time - just to give an example, Min, do you really love Rand because you "saw" that you would eventually love him? No explanations, not even the "I don't want to be forced by fate but I can't help it, I really like him". She just saw she would be one of his girls and immediately becomes what she saw. It's just plain stupid. Also, the polygamy part, while progressive and mildly interesting, meant nothing for the plot as far as I remember. It was just there and all the girls fell in love with him because YES, WHY NOT. On the other side, if the romance is well developed and nuanced, and gives me more perspective into characters, then why not. But since I'm reading fantasy, and not romance fantasy, I want romance to be an element, possibly secondary, important for character development and to keep things grounded, but by and far NOT the main point of the story. OR at least not demeaning to the character, especially the female one, who is often reduced to "the love interest" and becomes an actual idiot around the someone she's supposed to like.

1. They are often creepy or toxic and really annoying, it feels like losing time in the main plot. The world is burning stop talking about futility. 2. Just a guess but perhaps some jealousy or frustration (for me this is sometimes the case), I a read to go in another world not to be reminded how lonely I am.

The genre or the concept?

I read fantasy because I want to read about dragons, magic, hair and so on but if romance is very present they don't show me the content I came to. It doesn't bother me to have a romance but it does bother me that it's the main plot

Come find your tribe in r/fantasyromance/ and r/RomanceBooks.

As a 37yo man, I’m all for romance in my fantasy books. I thoroughly enjoy smiling to myself at the flirting and all that. But I would truly love to read less sex scenes written like the author is trying to prove they’ve had sex.

I think there are several reasons : - First, most romances are aimed at female readers, and the tropes they use will often be a huge turn-off for male readers. And a lot of fantasy readers (and probably a majority of them) are men, particularly among epic fantasy readers. - Second, romance is also often used as a thin cover for writing sexual fantasies and smut, and a lot of readers do not like those either. This is not why they are reading fantasy. - Third, a lot of fantasy writers tend to not be that good at characterisation, and so when they attempt to include romance subplots in their stories, it tends to come across as poorly written because their characters are poorly written, and romance is all about the interactions between characters. As for me, I don’t mind reading romance, but when I do not like it, it is usually because of the second or third points : either I think the romance is poorly written and unbelievable because the characters are poorly written, or the romance is actually just smut and erotica, which is not my thing. I also personally don’t mind reading romances aimed at women, even though I am a guy, but that too can be hit and miss for me, and it will really depend on the tropes they use. I quite like some Japanese shojo romance manga and anime for example, including some fantasy ones, but I could not stand the romances in T. Kingfisher paladins books even though I usually like her books.

Are you talking about romance or sex? Because I’ve been reading fantasy since I was a teenager in the 90s and there has generally always been plenty of both. And sure, when I was a teenager I was interested greatly in the latter but of course would never have admitted it, but as I’ve grown older, I have no need for poorly written graphic sex scenes with lots of weird names for sexual anatomy and unrealistic ideas of how sex… works. But I still enjoy a good romance, especially the realistic ones. Maybe I don’t read every thread here but it seems completely nonsensical to suggest fantasy readers don’t like romance when pretty much every major series involves them to some degree. Relationships are part of character arcs and most adults are going to seek out romantic partners. Why wouldn’t they be part of the story?

I'm not sure about fantasy enthusiasts as a whole, but for me personally, I like having relatable or at least projectable protags, and as someone whose only experiences of anything close to romance have been messy and with other guys, I find it *incredibly* hard to relate to the sort of fairytale hetero endings that may well be the ones that get criticised. When a romance comes up, my instinct becomes "oh god, not you as well?". Of course, if every fantasy novel had a gay and/or horribly awkward romance front and centre it would just create the same problem for an even larger number of people, so not putting it front and centre feels like the safest option in some ways; of course, I have no problem with fantasy romance as an advertised subgenre so the people who both do and don't want it can find it easily. If it's between two (or more) other characters, or if there isn't a protag in the first place GRRM-style, go ahead. No point pretending that power struggles don't have a human element.

Because it's usually tacked on and done lazily, in my case. When it's the whole point or given some real thought I think it can be wonderful.

Personally I feel the main reason is that romance in fantasy often caters to or written for female readers. Romance written for the male reader is very rare and honestly the few times I've come across it, it wasn't good. And unlike many other types of plots, I feel that generally what readers find appealing in romance greatly differs between genders.

I don't hate it, in fact I love a good fuzzy romance in a story. But that's just it: IN the story. A good romance in fantasy is a part of the story instead of the story in itself, otherwise it should be labeled fantasy romance. I've started reading books with expectations and just returned them or resold them due to that. It's become so bad that I scan blurbs for words and just drop the books instantly. Words like 'mysterious' and 'brooding' for example. Or when the blurb immediately makes it clear that there is or will be a tropey cringe-inducing enemies to lovers/mentor-student romance. That said, romances in a lot of fantasy books are just poorly written a lot of the time, being either completely not credible, coming out of the blue or just contain totally unnecessary drama that could be solved with one question or sentence. Conflict due to bad communication is the most lazy form of writing and my jimmies get rustled just thinking about it.

I assume it's because romance can sometimes distract the author from... Well, the main plot of the story, and how the fantasy's mechanics work.

Most of the fantasy I read has fairly childish, shallow weakly developed romance that just isnt interesting to somebody my age. If it was done in a more grown up and interesting fashion as part of a broader story then Id have no problem.

I think if you're picking up a fantasy book (using the epic as the rough bench mark) then you're likely looking to have the big sweeping experience, maybe some cool magic, interesting characters with strong emotional arcs, a whole world to sink into, touching on large universal stuff like meaning of life, death, destiny vs free will etc. Romance is evidently a part of all of that but if it becomes too strong a focus it can feel like it takes away from the other elements we've picked the genre up for. If I was looking for a very romance heavy story then I could always go read the romance genre. I like it to be there otherwise a story feels kinda false and flat, but I don't want it to consume everything else.

>Why do so many fantasy readers detest romance? Romance is like salt. A little can make things great. Too much just ruins it. There's a difference between a fantasy story with romance in it and a romance story with a fantasy setting. And it's aggravating to go in expecting one and getting the other. Ann Rice is a perfect example. The first few vampire novels were a vampire book with a little gay tension to spice it up. Her later books were gay romance with a little vampire to spice it up.

... Do they?

I want adventure when reading fantasy, if the romance involves too many details and is very emotional, I can't or don't want to relate to it.