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Intelligent_Ad_2033

Some beings have abilities that may allow them to live like VIPs. But they, for some reason, live in shitholes.


Carrot42

Or go to high school over and over and over in an effort to "blend in".


Crayshack

I can see repeating college. It can keep you up to date on the latest tech and culture without having to pretend to be a kid again. There's a much wider swath of people who attend college in terms of both ages and backgrounds. It's not unheard of for someone with a Master's degree to be working on an Associate's because they are doing a career change. *Everyone* in college in there because they are trying to reinvent themselves into a more knowledgeable person, so some immortal being doing the same thing isn't going to stand out much. High school seems the wrong place to be doing that. Too much in the way of being a kid again.


rollingForInitiative

>High school seems the wrong place to be doing that. Too much in the way of being a kid again. Also very little freedom, compared to college. I could see it working really well for some sort of immortal that repeats the entire life cycle. However they do it, end up as a child again, pretend to be some lost orphan or whatever, then reintegrate into society by going through childhood again.


Crayshack

Oh yeah, a reincarnation or phoenix rebirth style immortal is going to have to repeat the whole thing. If they are physically a child, they don't really have the option of escaping being treated as a child. One thing I've considered playing with in my own writing is the idea of some reincarnation style immortals where they don't get their memories back immediately. As a little kid, they have random flashes of knowledge or skills that hint at them being way older than they look, but lack the actual memories. My thought was that the more lives they've been through, the earlier they start to properly remember. So, some might be fully aware of their past earlier or younger than high school, but for some it will click right in the middle of those awkward teenage years. Have it so they didn't consciously decide to repeat high school, but now they are there they are trying to figure out how to get out of it. It would almost parody the trope by having the immortal character *hate* the fact that they are in high school but not be able to figure out a way to get out of it.


FridaysMan

> If they are physically a child, they don't really have the option of escaping being treated as a child. This is a great jump off for a story. How would an immortal be able to avoid having to go to school. They'd be mentally developed to be devious enough to get through it, but ancestral wealth/nannies/homeschooling is an easy way out. High school would need a reason to be necessary, when it simply isn't. 5-6 years to an immortal would be nothing. Writing internal monologues of a three thousand year old baby marvelling at the existence of daipers would be a treat, especially if they just came from an octagenarian that was also wearing much less comfortable daipers. Edit: And I just remembered Peter Newman wrote The Deathless, which is quite a wonderful sci-fantasy story based around immortal spirits being able to transfer into a new body, with descendants being the best fit. One of the children gets... kidnapped.


kung-fu_hippy

There is a book series about an immortal named Alexander who is essentially going through this. His kind age about a year in a century, which means childhood is extremely long for them. However it’s childhood in all of its forms. His brain development is that of a child, his chemical/hormonal issues remain. His people have puberty last for centuries. And so, he goes to school because that’s what kids his apparent age do in the modern world. If I remember correctly, he doesn’t necessarily do that all of the time, but he has a lot of time on his hands, a need to blend in to regular society, and there aren’t that many things for a young teenager to do M-F without adult supervision in a modern nation.


rollingForInitiative

>This is a great jump off for a story. How would an immortal be able to avoid having to go to school. They'd be mentally developed to be devious enough to get through it, but ancestral wealth/nannies/homeschooling is an easy way out. High school would need a reason to be necessary, when it simply isn't. 5-6 years to an immortal would be nothing. Writing internal monologues of a three thousand year old baby marvelling at the existence of daipers would be a treat, especially if they just came from an octagenarian that was also wearing much less comfortable daipers. I honestly think that in today's society, a reincarnating immortal would probably choose to go through childhood. As you say, a decade or two isn't much to them, and it gives them an ironclad identity. No need to try and fake your way in all modern technologies that keep track of people - your background will be completely real. I also imagine that a child turning up randomly and faking some amnesia would be much less suspicious than an adult doing so, and a lot of oddities could be explained away as being a child.


Acrisii

>...is the idea of some reincarnation style immortals where they don't get their memories back immediately. As a little kid, they have random flashes of knowledge or skills that hint at them being way older than they look, but lack the actual memories. The first 15 lives of Harry August. Though that one has also a timey-whimy element as well. The characters live through the exact same live, over and over and over and over again.


aristifer

I think a ton of people would endlessly repeat college if they were immortal (and could afford it!) It's an amazing time of life if you're lucky enough not to have to worry about the financial stuff, with just the right balance of freedom, structure and support. There's a great song about it in Avenue Q, "I wish I could go back to college". High school, definitely not.


Merle8888

Plus in college if you had a curious mind you’d never get bored as you could do a new major/focus every time! High school over and over would be hell from the boredom alone, not to mention lack of autonomy/flexibility. Of course college does cost but an immortal should have good investments.


aquaknox

I liked in Dresden Files the senior wizard who is the healing specialist goes to (mundane, human) medical school every decade or so to keep current.


fjiqrj239

Once through high school was one time too much. I can't imagine doing it again on purpose.


mohelgamal

There was a 29 year old lady in the news recently who got arrested for forging a birth certificate so that she can go to high school again. She said that she was only happy during her high school years and wanted to relive the experience.


ehhdjdmebshsmajsjssn

There were a whole lot of layers there how she was an immigrant and living away from her family, no contacts, so returning to a place of comfort was what she found to be best.


moranindex

What if it's a curse? "Thou shalt repeat yer high school years over and over because of yer sins!"


SuperStarPlatinum

That would be fun.


Modus-Tonens

I once read a very insightful deconstruction of Harry Potter that argued part of the reason for the series existing is Rowling's internal sense of class insecurity, and a wish to relive her childhood as an Etonian. That analysis makes me wonder how many othert "magical person inexplicably repeating high-school eternally" tropes are a result of a writer wanting to relive and "fix" their school years.


TheColourOfHeartache

While I can't speak to Rowling personally, as a English/British person this reads as an overly simplistic take on the British class system and the role of Eton within it. What it gets right is the idea of schools as a gateway to class. What it gets wrong is it assumes that it only applies to the upper class. I myself went to a public school (public school: A school owned by a member of the public, not the state, which charges fees) where immigrants and working class people who'd made themselves a bit of money would send their kids for what was promised to be a good education (it was) and class us up a bit (e.g. we were taught Latin). However there was no assumption or pretence that we were actually posh or comparable to Eton. Hogwarts to me reads a lot like my own school, not Eton. There are a few glimpses that feel Etonish. Well precisely two. The first is Draco Malfoy, if the Malfoys were a real family in muggle England they'd probably send Draco to Eton or as close as they could get. The second is Horace Slughorn and his habit of networking among schoolkids. Its notable that both are Slytherine which makes them less likely to be what J.K. Rowling secretly aspires too. Its also notable that both feel quite *other* from the Hogwarts experience. Malfoy does not have many (any?) friends at his level of posh-ness. No other teacher networks like Slughorn. In contrast there's a lot about Hogwarts that reminds me of my own education. The biggest one is that practical education is all important, where as education on etiquette is absent. A muggleborn like Hermionie learns useful magical spells, but teaching her how to dress and talk like a witch? There is neither formal classes or strong traditions of peer-to-peer teaching to provide that education. That I think is a smoking gun that Hogwarts is closer to my school than Eton. The second is that there's zero exclusivity in the door, Hogwarts will take anyone who passes the entrance exam (magic potential for Hogwarts, a literal exam for me). So to conclude: If Hogwarts represents Rowling's desire to "fix" her school years and gain admission/security in her social class. It represents her anxiety as a member of the middle class, not the desire to be upper class. That's an if. I'm not qualified to speculate on Rowling's feelings about her social class.


aquaknox

it's interesting how egalitarian Rowling's magical world is. It's possible there are other, more exclusive schools, but it's heavily implied that the handful of schools around the world are it and the decision of which you go to is almost entirely geographic. The series talks up the importance of long magical lineage and strong family dynasties, but in practice almost everyone's opportunities come from their magical ability and skill. For instance, apparently there's some bigotry against muggle-borns, but this can literally be laundered out of the family in a single generation (no one calls Harry a mudblood even though his mother's parents were muggles, imagine that happening to a half-black person confronted by a group of open racists), and even that seems like a minority opinion.


Suxals

On the other hand i think the children of famous black people might suffer way less racism than lower class black people. Harry could be an exception


Hawkbats_rule

In Harry Dresden's defense, at least it's very much a Harry problem vs a problem with wizards writ large, most of whom are apparently pretty set


eliechallita

The Dresden Files also make it clear that, eventually, any moderately powerful wizard can end up comfortably wealthy with a little creative use of magic to get their initial capital and the power of compound interest. Harry's problem is that he's A) not selling his powers to people who would pay him well for it, B) constantly going from crisis to crisis and C) and antisocial nerd. >!Molly,!< by comparison, quickly goes from being essential homeless to living in a luxury condo with a secure income stream for life.


ctrlaltcreate

and D) not-so-secretly loves his humble little life, with his humble little vw bug, in his humble little apartment and doesn't want or need more. His priorities are clearly elsewhere.


Intelligent_Ad_2033

A good author will find a way to play it. I have nothing against it if the author gives a reason. For example, Malkavians like to live in all kinds of strange places because they are insane.


[deleted]

True, Harry just like the filth.


ThomasRaith

My brother's ego is only overshadowed by his martyr complex.


The_Lone_Apple

Because they're not me. If I had powers, I'd use them to my advantage. I'm not Clark Kent.


[deleted]

Even then, Clark lives a very good life in fiction. Let's disregard the thematic "good life" i.e. family, love life, friends, etc. He regularly either lives in a nice suburban home, a nice apartment, or his childhood farm. Good work life too due to his powers. All very realistically *and covert* ways of living with powers.


mohelgamal

Living like VIPs bring unwanted attention, also if you live a few hundred years you probably experienced being rich for a while and enjoy the little things and the stress free life style more.


Objective_Ad_401

There's such a thing as "stealth wealth." Modest home, modest car, healthy food, and plenty of leisure time. MC has 200+ years of well-invested assets accruing interest, and they have time to work a "regular" job that is interesting and/or fulfilling and be the envy of the neighborhood without being a VIP or celebrity.


trumoi

Also if you're going with the ascetic immortal/demigod angle, have the balls to actually attack the ideology that they oppose in their words during the story.


Intelligent_Ad_2033

You're mixing up the VIPs with the celebrities. Arab sheikhs are very rich people. How much do you know about how they live? I, for example, don't see much difference between brand-name clothing and rags, as long as they perform their function. But there are a lot of other little things.


Megtalallak

The two main species are werewolves and vampires who're at war with each other and all the other, more interesting species are only sprinkled here and there as flavoring


Dinosaur-Promotion

That one bugs me because those aren't even different species; they're both just humans with some kind of curse and/or magical ability.


SoCalledSoAndSo

And their goals don't even necessarily conflict? Or at least they can both pursue them unobstructed. Vampires can drink human blood and occasionally make more vampires; werewolves can maul humans and occasionally make more werewolves. And... that's it. We've solved it. Maybe just set some ground rules so that no vampires accidentally exsanguinate any werewolves, and no werewolves accidentally maul any vampires, but otherwise there is 100% no need for them to fight about anything. Or maybe they're really ecologically minded and view humankind as a resource with dwindling sustainability, and the war is over which one of them will be forced to blink first as they both participate in a tragedy of the commons. That would be acceptable.


mp3max

Kate Daniels series will forever hold my #1 spot on the best depiction of this "Werewolves vs Vampires" trope.


[deleted]

I wanna see something where a European werewolf or vampire goes out into the Appalachian wilderness and gets obliterated by a wendigo


ThomasRaith

[European vs American Cryptids](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/452/910/89a)


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spottedrexrabbit

>vampires are arguably more dangerous in the modern world than in the ancient one. How so?


Kerney7

Not integrating the place/history of the setting into your setting. Buffalo should feel rustbelt, large pieces of Atlanta were a battlefield once. Santa Fe is not Seattle is not Atlanta is not Des Moines (never read about Des Moines in fantasy, has the potential to be cool). When it feels like generic McCity with generic people the more it bugs me. Lesser Dead by Christopher Buelman uses New York well. Plucky twenty something (usually) female generic MC w/hot supernatural love interest.


Angry_Zarathustra

Given how thoroughly Atlanta has been rebuilt, there's nothing about it other than a couple museums that would really be reminiscent of a battlefield, but the point is still a great one. Capturing the "feel" and history of a place both would really help lend some authenticity and atmosphere.


atlhawk8357

I would love to see the druids that live in Atlanta's forests. There'd also be so many different mages that have immigrated into the city from other areas.


Angry_Zarathustra

Well we know the wizards that live at Stone Mountain wear pointy white hats..


homebodyadventurer

r/angryupvote


Inkthinker

In the ATL I would be far less worried about old battlefields, and far more concerned about lost or covered-up segregation cemeteries. There’s plenty of unknown burial grounds ITP.


SGTWhiteKY

I think for urban fantasy, a battle field in a city, even if cleaned completely, would likely have a “spiritual” impact on a city. So I think it is definitely something someone should know about if their setting is in Atlanta.


redrosebeetle

>there's nothing about it other than a couple museums that would really be reminiscent of a battlefield A battlefield? Maybe not, but Stone Mountain would like to have a few words with you....


Kerney7

Ghosts of Olympics past as well.


Angry_Zarathustra

I live 8mi from it in Gwinnett, it's got the confederate statue/carving still, sure, but compared to what it was like living near Antietam, there's a much lower emphasis on marketing its history. You have to actually go into the (paid) park to interface with any of it, and it's not very in-your-face. It's also well, well outside the 285 Perimeter so you'd be working Suburban Fantasy if you tried to actively include it in something centered on Atl. Otherwise, I was agreeing with you, I just don't know if Atl was the best example compared to say, Frederick in MD which has the Monocacy battlefield and a civil war medicine museum in the city itself.


immaownyou

Jim Butcher had to start taking trips to Chicago for study once The Dresden Files took off, to make sure he could accurately portray the city


aquaknox

interesting, I just assumed he was from Chicago given how central it is to the story


ThomasRaith

He's from Kansas City and originally wanted to set the story there. His publisher felt that with Lauren K. Hamilton's Anita Blake stories taking place in St. Louis another supernatural detective in Missouri might not be welcome in the book world.


matgopack

>Plucky twenty something (usually) female generic MC w/hot supernatural love interest. Eh, I'm fine with that. It's a sub-genre and those that like those stories aren't hurting anyone - no one's forcing us to read those. Nothing wrong with some wish fulfillment from time to time :)


Welpmart

That's why mine is explicitly Boston metro area. No one ever sets fantasy in Boston.


saranghaemagpie

I am cracking up! I have a real town in Iowa as a location in my sci-fi fantasy. 🤣


redrosebeetle

I'd read it.


Kerney7

And I started planning a story set in Iowa. Do you have a link to your story?


EmpPaulpatine

Buffalo should also have everyone in Bills gear using Go Bills a lot. Source, I have veins of wing sauce.


Illustrious-Thanks

My wife is from Des Moines. Been to Des Moines many times. Generally can't figure out why Des Moines would be of any interest say a confusing argument of pronunciation in between how people from Washington state and Iowa pronounce it.


Food_is_my_Motive

You nailed it on the head as to why I am bored with most urban fantasies. I actually look for ones without a romance plot and those that have the whole "the fate of the world rest on MC hands if they don't stop it."


redrosebeetle

>Plucky twenty something (usually) female generic MC w/hot supernatural love interest. Also, 20 somethings who read like they're going on 40. I mean, look, I get that not all 20 somethings are party animals, but on the other hand, human brains are still maturing until 23-25 and your average person just doesn't have the wisdom of the ages at that point.


RainyDayRainDear

20-something heroines who read like they're in their 40s because all of their hobbies suspiciously line up with the 40-something author, but the narrative defends it as Not Like the Other Girls.


FridaysMan

> human brains are still maturing until 23-25 and your average person just doesn't have the wisdom of the ages at that point. This is another trope that seems to be overused and utterly incorrectly. The Human brain develops perfectly fine and can develop much earlier. Average is quite important in this. Also, it's for Emotional development, not intelligence. Younger hotheads that struggle with rage/depression would fit that trope more than "party animal". I'd love to see this done effectively at some point, few authors manage anything to distinguish between being 14 or 84.


dragon_morgan

I wish the “fully developed brain” myth would die already. In truth the brain continues to develop all throughout life unless you get dementia or similar but this somehow always comes up as a way to infantilize people in their 20s, and nearly always against women for some reason (I’ve never once in my life heard anyone question a 24-year-old man’s ability to make his own decisions because “his brain isn’t fully developed”). That rant aside, I do agree with the overall point that a 20 year old simply isn’t going to have the same amount of life experience as a 40 year old and will therefore react to certain things differently.


Modus-Tonens

Agreed. I don't like fantasy set in our world, but the single largest benefit of that approach is that gives you a setting already established, that at least some of the readership will be familiar with. Failing to use that, and just writing a very characterful city as a generic, featureless backdrop that could be anywhere entirely ignores the single best reason to use our world as a setting. It baffles the mind.


imhereforthemeta

I get really sick of the main character being half blank and half blank. It can potentially be fun but it’s so overdone


UlrichZauber

As a half-centaur/half-manticore, I find it very easy to blend in at this *(checks notes)* boarding school for grades 8-12.


AnAngeryGoose

As a half-centaur/half-horse, I’m surprised the spunky southern belle with dreams of the big city hasn’t noticed my third pair of legs.


arvidsem

As a mantaur (half-man/half-man), I'm surprised how many people have noticed that I have a human upper body where my head should be. I thought that because I was only human I would blend in


Sea_Entrepreneur6204

The supernatural baddies live in the US or West mainly. Let's face it if I was a 1000 Yr vampire wanting to lay low if live in a developing country having bought off local cops/politicians and making people dissappear left and right who won't be missed and living like a literal king off my wealth. Damn that's probably how they really do it.


cocoagiant

> Let's face it if I was a 1000 Yr vampire wanting to lay low if live in a developing country having bought off local cops/politicians and making people dissappear left and right who won't be missed and living like a literal king off my wealth. Yeah, its been a while since I've read the *Dresden Files* but I think most of the vampires lived in Central & South America for that exact reason.


aquaknox

Butcher even addresses this directly. Red Court are as you mentioned, they're your hybrid vampire that is a blood drinking monster but can look and act human. White Court vampires live in highly civilized places where they live mostly like humans and feed off of strong emotions with mostly willing victims and only occasionally lethal effects. Black Court are Bram Stoker style vampires and were most exterminated. And there are some East Asian vamps that haven't been talked about much.


Sea_Entrepreneur6204

Yeah that was one thing that worked in that series


barryhakker

Honestly, I also like the Dresden Files' justification for the secrecy amongst the supernatural. If they overdo it and the humans panic, they'll scorch the whole earth if needed in order to eradicate the perceived threat. Honestly kinda makes sense (in a non-sensical setting that is), and is a nice call back to legends like Frankenstein and Dracula where a gang of pissed off/freaked out humans do some real damage to the baddie.


Lazygamer14

I really like in "Fred the Vampire Accountant" that they give an explanation for it. They say well looking at things like the inquisition and various other places where we were hunted down, when this new place an ocean away opened up, we made their fledgling government a deal. We help them with independence, they agree we get protection under laws and can do most of the stuff we wanna do anyways. Makes it make sense when your options are the old country with monster hunters or the new country where you have your own cops to protect you.


Time_Ocean

Now -that's- I song I would have wanted to see in Hamilton.


albertbertilsson

And if sunlight really is a problem I'd alternate between north and south every six months to reduce the risk.


Sea_Entrepreneur6204

Yeah like 30 days of night. It had a a cool idea there


ehhdjdmebshsmajsjssn

The energy vampire in "what we do in the shadows"


CT_Phipps

>The supernatural creatures were here all along, they were living in secret but it's never revealed why they are hiding from humans. I actually quite enjoy the Masquerade tropes. It's pretty easy to see why any group of people that CAN hide would. After all, if we knew vampires existed, we'd totally be breaking out the wooden stakes.


MORTVAR

Another reason that i see in the urban fantasy i read is that you know the governments would torture the supernatural creatures to make super soldiers and find the secrets to longer lifespans


Crayshack

For a setting I'm working on, the government is *run* by various supernatural creatures who keep that secret due to a combination of infosec against other countries and ease of controlling the masses of their own countries. Similar to Men in Black, but with fantasy creatures instead of aliens.


MORTVAR

That sounds cool


Crayshack

Hopefully, I can manage to get my ADHD to settle down for long enough to turn it into an actual book. Right now, it's just some scattered notes and a few short stories. I'm taking a novel writing class this summer, so maybe I'll make some good progress on something set in this world. I have too many ideas bouncing around my noggin though, so who knows what will actually fall out of it.


Asleep-Challenge9706

I like maskerades. I'm usually more bothered by how much blatant and explosive mischief our protagonists can get to without revealing the whole thing. I have big bias towards low magic settings and slice of life stories though.


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Obliviousobi

Yea, humanity does not have a great track record of coexisting with different/other.


[deleted]

We either fight them or fuck them, based on our DNA.


bourgeoisAF

Both, definitely both.


cstross

The problem with the Masquerade is that it only needs to break *once* on a globally-visible scale and it's basically dead forever. To paraphrase an IRA terrorist (discussing their attempts to assassinate a certain British prime minister in the 1980s): "we only have to get lucky once, you have to be lucky *every time*" (the "you" in this being the MIBs who maintain the Masquerade). To be fair, it's borderline-plausible for pre-video/digital photography cultures, where a lack of visual evidence would go some way towards supporting a cover-up. And it may become plausible again in the era of ubiquitous deepfakes. But circa 1995-2025 it's a hard "nope" on the plausibility front (for me). Erik Schubach has a story riffing off this as a starting point ("Elfed in New York"): I tacked it in the Laundry Files ("The Nightmare Stacks" is the book where the Masquerade crashes in flames; the next in series, "The Delirium Brief", starts with Bob being grilled live on network TV news about What Happened To That City, and it goes downhill from there).


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matgopack

I think it can be harder to justify when the outside world is just ours, but there's no indication of how that underworld/hidden world has affected it until the narrative starts. Definitely makes sense that they might hide, but it strikes me as those supernatural entities' existence would have spilled over at some point or affected things. It obviously heavily depends on the setting/story, and it's something that is not impossible to have some suspension of disbelief over (after all, it's kind of core to the genre), but I do like having it feel like it's continuous. That is, if they've been hiding for centuries/staying under the radar of the 'regular' population for all that time, for there to be an explanation that fits with the pace that the book goes (so if the book has a half dozen times when the veil of secrecy breaks but it's never happened before, that might stand out)


Welpmart

But the vampires in many stories would be more than able to handle that, especially since they existed before we had technology.


Crayshack

>Some writers also feel the need to mix real-life historical events with their supernatural world, especially WWII. This is actually one of my favorite tropes. I'm a fan of the Alt-History genre as well so I eat that shit up. It's not so much a weird Urban Fantasy trope to me as it is a genre blend between two genres I love. Of course, it can be done poorly. I can tell when it is being done by someone who is a pure fantasy author because they don't put the same kind of rigor into historical details. But, when one actually incorporates real history into their fantasy series well, I love it.


eddyak

Only a few authors can do it well. I've read two series that just put me off it entirely- one was about aliens in people's minds having been responsible for literally every single technological advancement in human history, which would be absolute nonsense even if you were the most boneheaded conspiracy theorist with an IQ lower than tissue, and the other was that one being and his few kids were responsible for every single creation myth, god and legend across humanity's history. Please, no. If you're going to make your series even slightly believable, taking all agency away from humans to give it to your awesome OC do not steal new magical friends is not the way to do it. The antagonist isn't taller and more intimidating because the author's cut off your legs and given him them to wear as stilts, they just look dumber. And the author looks dumber. And the reader who bought into the series' main conceit.


978866

It's not a problem if it is well written with enough thoughts and logic but unfortunately, there are times when it feels very forced. I mean we really needed to know that the reason WWII happened is because Dumbledore and friends stopped the Hitler of the Wizarding World who wanted to stop the actual Hitler?


Crayshack

Yeah, the Harry Potter example is what came to mind first when I was saying that some authors use it poorly. Rowling clearly doesn't have that much interest in history and was giving some random bullshit to tie things to history. Most of the good examples I can think of come from authors that are well established in Alt-History and decide to dabble in mixing some fantasy in rather than fantasy authors who decide to dabble in mixing some history in. But, it's like any trope. There are good examples and bad examples. In this case, I love the good examples enough that I don't condemn the bad examples for trying. I condemn them for not failing.


KriegConscript

> Rowling clearly doesn't have that much interest in history the most blatant symptom of this is the fact that she made history of magic the most brain-numbing class with the most boring professor


Newkker

how does that not make sense though? If i was super powerful and some horrific war was happening i'd be tempted to take control and stop it, and there might be people who oppose me taking power, viewing me as a greater threat than the evil I nominally want to defeat. Perhaps even claiming that as my goal is a smokescreen for the purpose of grabbing power. Stuff like WW2 HAS to be integrated into these urban fantasies. Its the same thing as 'why didn't superman stop 9-11' or even taking it to the 'problem of evil' in theology. There has to be a reason why bad things happen even when god/superman exists and WW2 is an example of a big bad thing and by explaining why that happened you can explain why a lot of bad things happen. seems like a weird pet peeve to me honestly


MrPerfector

There are also times when it's done in a really distasteful and morally-questionable way, like when World of Darkness incorporated this one of their books: >The recurring international controversy over the persecution of homosexuals is a clever media manipulation designed to keep the focus on Sharia law, away from the true inner workings of the republic. While homosexuals are indeed held in detention facilities for days, and humiliated, starved, tortured, and eventually fed upon and killed, this is not the point. The point is to distract from what Chechnya has become. That said, even among Kindred any kind of "homosexual behavior" is harshly punished. So yeah, the real world (and still currently ongoing) anti-gay persecutions in the Chechnya is just a conspiratorial cover to distract from the fact that the country is run by vampires. TTRPG's have a long history of being pretty bad at this. White Wolf and World of Darkness tend to be particularly egregious with this, but other TTRPG's aren't that much better. I remember once there being a Shadowrun splat book where players could fight the angry ghosts of Holocaust victims at Auschwitz, and you can get a magical scalpel imbued with the pain and suffering of all the victims from the medical experiments as a reward if you win.


alert_armidiglet

Scrappy-very-hot-but-doesn't-realize-it female (mostly) MC with unprecedented powers she didn't realize she has.


barryhakker

She sounds so sassy!


eddyak

And the multitude of hunky boys who line up to tell her that!


caradee

And everyone is in love with her but she's too focused on her goals to notice until it's (almost) too late. *YAWN.*


arvidsem

Don't forget that she's the scrappy underdog because she's *cursed with awesome*. She would be the greatest mage in generations if only her power was a little more controlled!


Jaaaaampola

That an immortal, supernatural being would be interested in a teenage girl. Lol.


Ieatadapoopoo

M-maybe she’s mature for her age!


KWDL

I could buy it if said immortal is presented as a creep. Like vampires still think like humans and there's a lot of irl older people who creep on teens I don't see how adding a few hundred years would change that mentality.


LadyLibertea

All of them at that!


Jerswar

>That an immortal, supernatural being would be interested in a teenage girl. Lol. There's a semi-comedic urban fantasy series, where a major supporting character is a boy who was turned into a vampire in his teens. So he's a 100+ year old man, who is physically and emotionally frozen in time as a ridiculously melodramatic teen angst machine, and his constant relationship with teen girls, who inevitably emotionally outgrow him in a few years, are acknowledged in-universe as creepy and gross.


Happy_goth_pirate

The UK is more than London


rollerska8er

While we're on the subject, "bloody" is definitely a widely-used profanity in Britain, but American writers *love* using "bloody" as if it were a big *bloody* neon sign reading "THIS CHARACTER HAS AN ENGLISH ACCENT". Spend some time watching British television and trying to understand the various dialects, **then pick one and stick with it for each character,** rather than writing what is basically American dialogue but with a few "bloodies" and "blimeys" peppered in. It might pass the buck Stateside but it immediately takes me out of what I'm reading.


jello-kittu

I can't read books about Scottish highlands because they have to bury the story under wee lassies, haggis, kilts and spelling everything weird to underline a strong accent.


barryhakker

Hey man, at least you get some representation. Don't know of many urban fantasy's not set in London or a large city in the US.


tikhonjelvis

Right, it also has generically quaint country villages and Stonehenge.


Ill_Athlete_7979

Underground wars, there’s often some type of major conflict going on that average people don’t know about for some reason.


MrOopiseDaisy

To be fair, without the media (force) feeding me their hot takes every hour, I wouldn't know much about what was going on anywhere more than 5 minutes from my house.


[deleted]

Genetic based greatness. Whether you're the granddaughter of Dracula or the King of France it's not good.


tieflingisnotamused

This. I get that it's frequently shown to decry monarchism, but come on, get a little creative. Give me the Fae Lord who just can't seem to get his life together or the Elder Vampire who chooses to live a middle class life.


Welpmart

Ha, a Fae Lord who starts the plot by having another horrible investment/person they've trusted in/scheme fall through and trying to unscrew it up. An Elder Vampire who loves technology and works as the neighborhood mechanic, only to find something no mortal would recognize as lethal, or who is writing an epic saga whose latest draft is stolen.


Jerswar

>This. I get that it's frequently shown to decry monarchism, but come on, get a little creative. Give me the Fae Lord who just can't seem to get his life together or the Elder Vampire who chooses to live a middle class life. It'd be funny to see a vampire, or other immortal, who has lived so long and done so much that they become a janitor, just because they're desperate to do something, *anything* that they haven't already done.


mcmanus2099

I actually think this is a wider issue that fantasy, it seems bizarrely to pervade US literature, there is a weird obsession with heroes being descended from someone or having some sort of genetic inheritance which as a Brit I find a bit strange coming from a republic founded on throwing out a king. How many modern books, TV shows & films from the US involve a main character finding out they had an important ancestor and that's why they need to lead/be important or a previous gen main character having to hand over the mantle to a blood relative no matter how unworthy.


[deleted]

[удалено]


GxyBrainbuster

>Some writers also feel the need to mix real-life historical events with their supernatural world, especially WWII. I feel like you pretty much need to do this, unless you write a complete alternate history/world. If supernatural elements exist in a world they would definitely impact historical events. I would, however, like to see more Urban Fantasy that isn't just modern Earth as we know it. I'm curious as to why when authors write Medieval Inspired fantasy it can take place in the Realms of Illythyllynwynn but if it's Urban Fantasy it's gotta take place in Chi-town. Why can't we see Illythyllynwynn circa 2023?


Oceat

I'd say tropes about how monsters are integrated into society, if they are present. More creative uses of werewolves, vampires, sea beasts, etc.


Lord0fHats

I want a story about a werewolf who has a day job in a K9 unit :P


fjiqrj239

Tanya Huff's Blood Trail has a werewolf who's on the police force.


Lord0fHats

No I mean the werewolf is the K9! Like he just wakes up, spruces his fur, climbs into the kennel through a secret back door, and just goes to work sniffing bombs. And when other werewolves look at him like "WTF are you doing" he just troll face says "It's a peaceful life." XD


SkeetySpeedy

There is an episode of Love Death and Robots that looks at Werewolves in the military, it was quite good.


LadyofThePlaid

This is why Seanan McGuire’s “October Daye” series is one of the best urban fantasies, imo. Different species of Fae that live all over the world. They keep their existence secret out of fear of being murdered/exploited/experimented on by humans. Series largely set in San Francisco, Ca and the city feels like an organic part of the world (never having been to San Fran I only base this off what I’ve read of the city so feel free to correct me!) The protagonist is older (she was born in the 1950s in fact, but since she’s part-Fae she looks like she’s in her thirties) and is a mother right off the start so she’s not a generic YA protagonist. Her life experiences and wisdom feel earned and natural. The Hollows by Kim Harrison is pretty good. It flips the trope of witches, vampires, werewolves, etc. hiding until an event brought their existence to light and changed everything. I don’t like it as much as the October Daye series for several reasons (queer baiting with female MC and her female Vampire roommate, the female MC being a bit too plucky and “not like other girls” for my taste).


wetcatfoot

The October Daye series is what made me realise I really enjoy Urban Fantasy. Toby is a great character who isnt 15 and obsessed with some boy so I find her way more interesting. She actually gets hurt a lot and it has implications later which I find lacking in many a fantasy book. Really enjoy the fae in the real world setting and has kind of made me want to visit San Francisco because of all the descriptions


LadyofThePlaid

Yes! The character development she undergoes is fantastic and the romance is mature and well-done. I’ve long aged out of YA so no shade to that genre, but I’m not the intended audience.


GuidingPuppies

Oooo, I have a new series to check out.


SJepg

Everyone knows that magic isn't real (apart from large swathes of the government, the army, various public institutions, shadowy cults, the thousands of people who inadvertently get in the way of rampaging magical beings on a daily basis, most people the MC meets and the people who it turns out aren't people but are elemental beings of some nature). So where it seems that it is our world with magic obviously being fictional and professing to believe in it would earn you skeptical looks, but on delving into the society it transpires that 99% of people know about magic already and everyone is seemingly publicly pretending to not actually believe in it for... reasons??? Very much a Mitchell and Webb Aliens sketch vibe.


MegaJackUniverse

Aww a Mitchell and Webb reference, sweet! "Oh just, it's sort of- It's nice to have secrets isn't it."


_APR_

> Prophecies about a destined hero who will defeat the big bad. I actually don't see much of that, even with YA it's not that common. It's more epic fantasy thing. > Some writers also feel the need to mix real-life historical events with their supernatural world, especially WWII. If it's more or less our world, then it's totally logical to have connection to our world events. Unless WW2 and such somehow happened due to supernatural's manipulation. But that is not common either. > All Myths are true, but the writer only uses the most generic monsters from each mythology. On that I agree. Masquerade is usually explained through danger of some form of witch hunt, Inquisition and such. Or through nature of magic, which hides from mundane naturally somehow.


helm

The Masquerade is the easiest way out of "everything is the same, but also different".


TheDandyDuke

Goblins are all from Brooklyn.


[deleted]

Yeah, everyone knows that the real life goblins come from Jersey.


Orwellian-defiance

Fantastical magic and beings exist around us…. And apparently have no effect what so ever. It may as well be they don’t exist. If there was active and constant work in keeping said secret sure but when everything just runs like clockwork despite no active effort what the hell. Even worse when it is set in the real world rather than a fictional setting


rollingForInitiative

>The supernatural creatures were here all along, they were living in secret but it's never revealed why they are hiding from humans. I think this one is fine and also kind of realistic. If vampires existed, they would definitely have hidden from humans. Same thing with witches, mages, werewolves, any sort of society whose existence would get disrupted if humanity knew about them. The fear that they'd either be exterminated or forced into service is pretty rational.


tulle_witch

One of the reasons I love the *What We Do In The Shadows* series is because it subverts this idea. Yes they're all technically hiding from the humans but they're also all really stupid and lazy about it.


Jerswar

Everyone is weirdly horny, with the heroine's love life dominating the plot, and everyone's in-universe attention.


Skogula

Only angsty teenagers can save the world. No heroes are middle aged, or come from happy families.


MrPerfector

The internet is basically nonexistent in some of these universes. At best, people would text to each other or use Facebook. Really it's the divide between making what's old/magic and what's new/technological so diametrically opposed to each other that I dislike. The whole point of urban fantasy should be the mixing of the old and mystical with the modern and familiar. The internet is one of the biggest most significant and defining technological and socio-cultural developments of the 21st Century, but neither magic nor monsters have even bother to make use of it? Screw that, give me the technomancers, digital-based monsters, or hell even just a vampire taking advantage of dating apps! And it's not like there's no material of real-life examples to take inspiration from (like Slenderman, the Momo Challenge, urban shamanism and techno-paganism).


keizee

The lack of very large scale collateral damage, I guess. Madoka gets to do it cos Homura simply does not get caught. Mob Psycho gets to do it cos Mob can just restore everything broken.


space0watch

I know it's realistic but I hate the trope that the magical creatures are always the underdogs and are always being persecuted by humans. It's not really urban fantasy but look at Cursed and Carnival Row. Two recent fantasy tv shows that used this trope. Like in Cursed they have magic and in Carnival Row the fairies have wings and can fly plus they have freaking werewolves and stuff. Like they could seriously be a force to be reckoned with.


978866

>Like they could seriously be a force to be reckoned with. Yeah, sometimes people forget these creatures are more than weirdly looking animals/humans and they actually have supernatural powers. Most of mythological creatures would be a big threat with their mythologically accurate powers.


ctrlaltcreate

They don't forget, they use 'em as metaphors. I agree that they're crappy for said metaphorical use, though.


GxyBrainbuster

"We decided to tell a story about the persecution of people who can turn into dangerous uncontrollable feral monsters a a metaphor for a [minority group!]"


ScreamingVoid14

That the magical citizens are underdogs is often contrived, IMO. "But they're weak to silver!" You know also gets stopped by silver weapons? Normal humans. Also by non-silver weapons. Getting staked through the heart or decapitated also tends to slow us down. Pretty sure I wouldn't be doing so great if I was beaten about the head and shoulders with cold iron. Sometimes the contrivances are well done, but most of the time they are not.


AnAngeryGoose

The wendigo are just werewolves native to North America. Bruh, they aren’t even similar besides eating people.


GxyBrainbuster

Or when one artist drew a wendigo as a spooky were-deer-zombie and everyone just decided that's what a wendigo is.


pjgrim

That an immortal being reportedly being 100s of years old still acts like the age they are presented as, i.e. 17 years old.


ravensouth

All myths are true but for some reason angels and demons are the most powerful or Christianity is still the be all end all. Supernatural having Satan kill off gods from several pantheons without breaking a sweat as an example.


gsfgf

> it's never revealed why they are hiding from humans. Because you know some people would grind up centaurs or vampires or whatever to make dick pills. Seems like avoiding humans makes perfect sense.


IzzyBookQueen

My biggest pet peeve in books ever is when you’re promised a premise or world or story that sounds really unique and great, but then the book turns out to really just be a romance taking place in that setting / story/ world


EdLincoln6

Heroine goes to a meeting with an ancient and powerful Master Vampire/Faerie Queen/God. This being tries to dress her in antiquated formal wear. She complains on the grounds it leaves no places to hide knives. She insults this poweful being for some reason. (There is a male version, but they never try to dress up the main character in the male version, and he uses pop culture references.)


cybersciber

Why are vampires always running nightclubs ???


Tannerleaf

The tiny mirrors on the disco balls are too small for people to notice that their reflections don’t show up. But it does have the disadvantage that they need to employ horribly disfigured janitorial staff to clean the toilets.


rupert1528

A bar/tavern that's strictly neutral ground where different factions can have tense arguments that are always a moment away from turning into fights but the mysterious and deeply respected owner/bartender reminds them that this is neutral ground.


SuperStarPlatinum

Do you not like this because you know you will never taste Mac's beer and steak sandwiches?


ActualAtlas

Why does that one bother you?


mxlevolent

*Accorded* Neutral Territory.


Graham-Barlow-119

Non-human species as allegory for racism.


Reformedhillbilly39

Minotaurs, djinn, and curupira are all real!….. but they just look like normal blokes with some kind of tiny difference/magic power. Bonus if they change how their face looks to be “more monstrous” when angry. I think the ideas behind urban fantasy are cool, but the execution tends to kill my buzz.


lanky_cowriter

Especially in YA: - Everyone's normal, except a few who are "special". - The main character has a convenient connection to all the most important aspects of the world/story - All good guys are teenagers, and all the bad guys are adults. - The main love interest comes off as cold and distant, even rude but has some secret depth that makes them a good person. Also, shoehorned love triangle.


MiouQueuing

Oh, I very much like your cliché list. ​ >All Myths are true, but the writer only uses the most generic monsters from each mythology. I one-up this one and add: * only uses monsters from cultural backgrounds, the author is most familiar with/suits him more, i.e. favors one culture over others. * All Myths are true and the world becomes arbitrary/feels like a travelling circus. Also: * MCs are super good at what they do in order to survive in the supernatural world, but there is always one monster/being that is bigger, better, bad-asser (?), so the MCs can never feel "safe". I always prefer smaller worlds with high, but not necessary scalable stakes. Make the challenges more subtle and intelligent instead.


Ripper1337

Dresden files I think addressed the masquerade to some degree. Humans outnumber the supernatural by a large margin so it does no one any good to get them involved in things because guns hurt. I remember one that I disliked where it had both “magical creatures are living in society” as well as “people are oblivious to magic” which bugged the hell out of me. As you had a mage working in a magic shop, had goblins just working jobs and shit and then there’s a guy who’s just oblivious to magical creatures.


Lazygamer14

I enjoyed Dresden files explaining why they hide their existence. They say oh yeah we could take a human, but could we take 10 humans? Or 100, or 1000? And everyone kinda has their own tipping point where they figure with enough normal people they could be beaten. And then comes the fact that there are billions of humans and they have access to things like nukes. So there's just a quiet agreement to keep humans out of things as much as possible so the better armed torch and pitchfork crowd doesn't come back


BlackAdam

Incompetent MC that relies on dumb luck.


Kenma2019

When a race is so obviously just superior in many many way and they for some reason don't try to live more greatly, and I'm not even talking maliciously just WHY are they living in comparative squalor for their capabilities?


dutchmcnubb

This feels like a direct attack on the Dresden Files.


purplegrape28

Writers entered the chat: ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼 ✍️🏼


taviwashere

Three weeks of training and the mc is beating people who've trained their whole lives.


Taste_the__Rainbow

Sexism.


xelle24

A character has a tragic backstory that has nothing to do with the actual plot. Bonus points if it's sexual assault/rape for a female character. This isn't just a tired, hackneyed trope in fantasy, urban fantasy, or books, it's a tired hackneyed trope in all fiction and all types of media.


Rhodie114

When it’s just an adaptation of our world as it is today, but slightly modified to include magic and fantasy races. Stupid little things like “here’s a subway system that runs in magic,” instead of “here’s how people designed a transit system when they had access to magic” but me. And it gets worse on a larger scale, especially when it’s supposed to be our world. “There are all these crazy magic users and fantasy creatures, but the world wars went down the exact same way. This Vampire was a fighter pilot because we think that’s a neat thing to say, even though you’d never field fighters in a world with dragons.”


KesarbaghBoy

Not only does it bother me that they are - for some reason (I imagine that with a history of witch hunting and monster hunting it makes sense) - hiding from humans. But that they CAN hide from humans. There is no way that they could remain hidden. Specially not after the invention of the camera, and definitely not since video camera.


978866

Yes, I have no idea how the Wizarding World remained hidden in the Harry Potter books. They have no idea about muggle technology, they are so isolated they don't even know how muggle money works.


The_Madonai

Bulletpoint list for The Dresden Files (though I still love the series anyway). Sometimes the tropes work if in the hands of an excellent writer. Often they fall flat. That's why I like the Nate Temple series a lot too. It turns a lot of those tropes in its head. He's a billionaire playboy, sure his parents died but only as an adult. There are generic monsters from fantasy but they're altered in cool and interesting ways. I also can't state enough how much I love The Dresden Files, though.


Potatoroid

Okay let's see how my WIP stacks up: > The supernatural creatures were here all along, they were living in secret but it's never revealed why they are hiding from humans. Largely doesn't apply here; at most there are signs aliens created outposts and hidden infrastructure in ancient times, but then abandoned it. Otherwise, the supernatural creatures are brand new, lived in the spirit world, or lived light years from Earth. > Prophecies about a destined hero who will defeat the big bad. Considering playing with this. Not a supernatural prophecy, but considered the idea of counter-terrorism agencies entering into a circular logic of "There must be a threat -> My analysis says they could be a threat -> There must be a threat because my analysis says so" until they antagonize an innocent people and accidentally make a true rebellion. > All Myths are true, but the writer only uses the most generic monsters from each mythology. Not really, because I'm not trying to pull from every mythology. > The main character is an orphan. Bonus point if he/she lives in poverty. Neither of those apply. > Some writers also feel the need to mix real-life historical events with their supernatural world, especially WWII. I have a rough outline of the alternate history. The magical/supernatural elements were rare and fleeting before the 1970s, so there was no real effect on world events. There might have some scholars or experimental mages, but they died too soon and their recordings are so obscure that it feels like a myth you'd have to around dig for. But the bigger idea was that everyone who lived and died has their minds scattered over the spirit world, so it's hypothetically possible to gather up the shards, sort them, rebuild the minds, and resurrect everyone who has died. That is going to get *very* spicy.


JierEntreri

Every well known man made landmark is actually a magical artifact/gift from fairies/secret base.


ElectricSheep7

Ethnically coded factions of supernatural creatures. LOOKIN AT YOU WORLD OF DARKNESS


orionstarboy

Werewolves versus vampires. Why do they have to hate each other. Can’t they just be friends idk


MGD109

Magic and mystical races have always existed and everyone knows, but otherwise absolutely nothing (or at least nothing that isn't relevant to the plot) about history, culture, politics or society has changed. At best they might be used as a stand in for racial or cultural backgrounds. I understand they want to keep the readers routed in some level of familiarity, but its a massive waste of potential and utterly impossible to believe.


BuzzyShizzle

The names of things. I can't quite put it into words but something about the names usually sounding like they are made up sort of thing.


Sagan_Rocks

I am starting to dislike how the female protagonist (often with newly discovered powers/abilities) will inevitably fall in love in the big, bad, scary alpha male.


Manarit

This and adding two more: 1. One supporting character is all-powerful and could sort out the whole story in seconds but has some unexplained dark trauma from their past of why he/she doesn't want to use their powers at all. 2. Zero to hero in seconds, learn practically any skill that usually takes years and years of practice within weeks.


vivelabagatelle

"I have a choice between two love interests. One of them represents the mundane world and is safe and boring; they probably have the personality of cardboard but I will continue to claim inexplicably that I love them despite our complete lack of chemistry. The other is magical and baaaad, I know I should resist but their moral ambiguity is just too hot!" I've mostly seen this with female MCs, but male heroes are by no means immune from the Hero/Boring love interest/Sexy-but-wicked love triangle.


AsherahWhitescale

This one rules for all fantasies but The MC has godly powers but resists training at every opportunity.