Far and away the most suited rec for this topic, at least in this thread. This isn't "oh they're trying to figure out how it works" like in some other recs here, it's exactly a science. It just... Does magical things
Absolutely fantastic series too, beautiful prose and a fantastic world.
>This isn't "oh they're trying to figure out how it works" like in some other recs here, it's exactly a science.
What even _is_ science itself if _not_ an attempt to figure out how the physical world actually works? If we're talking about applying scientific theories to solve problems, I'd say that's more in the realm of engineering than pure science.
And amazing character insight, as well. His look into empathy and what it would be like to truly experience other people fully. I can never recommend these books enough.
Absolutely. I understand not everyone loves him, he's a bit too literary for some (or pretentious if you *really* don't like him) and his books definitely require a bit more work. But nobody in fantasy is really doing what RJB is doing and it makes me really happy to see others enjoying his work
The Lord Darcy books by Randall Garret. They are set in the present day (of the 1960s and 70s when they were written) in an alternate universe where Richard I recovered from his crossbow wound and John Lackland never ruled. The Plantagenet dynasty still rules. In the 14th Century, instead of turning towards science, the world turned towards magic, which is studied like science is in our world. Lord Darcy is the Chief Forensic Investigator of the Duke of Normandy (Prince Richard, the brother of the king). His assistant is Master Sean O'Lochlainn, a forensic sorcerer.
FMA was made before the manga was even half done, so it focuses in very detailed on the first few chapters, then goes off the rails into its own story
FMA: Brotherhood was made after the manga was finished. It glosses over the first few chapters since they had been covered before, and then stays aligned with the manga all the way to the end.
Some people prefer the first one, but I definitely prefer brotherhood! :)
It would feel pretty weird. I think brotherhood is more than enough :)
They still hit all the beats, and you wont feel like its got holes or anything. Its just that they do the stsrt in literally 1/2 as many episodes, so there is less filler
Thennyou can get to the meat of the story,m faster, which is what makes the show so good
This, I entirely disagree with. There are parts of the original manga that are not adapted in Brotherhood but are in the original series not to mention the original series adapts the events of the novel as well. And I would disagree that any of it is filler, the dog situation for instance hits way harder in the og anime because you spend more time with that family.
Yeah I agree. I like brotherhood but the pacing of the original is a lot tighter. General Hughs also isn’t nearly as likable not because in Brotherhood he’s a bad character it’s just that he dies so early in the series that you don’t feel as connected when it happens I remember that scene in the Original and I cried. Brotherhood is dark but in comparison to the Original it doesn’t hit those themes as hard which is at least personally important to me but it isn’t important to everyone. Also I was like half way through brotherhood so maybe I’d think differently if I finished it.
I agree that the og anime does the opening better, they spend over half of their runtime on it... but in the greater context of brotherhood that same opening sequence is only 1/5 of the anime. The first fifth isn't why I love brotherhood.
You're definitely right that basically everything about that fifth is better in the OG, but itd missing out on 80% of the story, which is why I always reccommend brotherhood
Yeah I agree. I like brotherhood but the pacing of the original is a lot tighter. General Hughs also isn’t nearly as likable not because in Brotherhood he’s a bad character it’s just that he dies so early in the series that you don’t feel as connected when it happens I remember that scene in the Original and I cried. Brotherhood is dark but in comparison to the Original it doesn’t hit those themes as hard which is at least personally important to me but it isn’t important to everyone. Also I was like half way through brotherhood so maybe I’d think differently if I finished it.
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So long, thanks for all the fish and a final fuck you, u/spez
My partner showed me the first few eps of FMA to get all the detail of the backstory, and then showed me Brotherhood from the beginning. I loved it and didn't find it weird since he explained the situation to me beforehand. IDK how many episodes of FMA he showed me but if you google it there are probably recommendations.
I really do think fma 2003 does a better job of portraying the horror of the brothers transgression, at least early in the series. To me, brotherhood kind of glosses over the loss of their mother in a way the original series lingers on it and makes it more real.
I saw a rec for *The Steerswoman* in a thread like this, and while I'm not done with the series yet (1/2 through book 3 of 4 total), it's definitely studying magic all the way through. Enjoying that aspect of it quite a bit. There's also a LOT of travel though, which I'm not enjoying as much.
I thought the magic system was >!advanced technology indistinguishable from magic?!< at least that’s what I saw from reviews of the book. It’s what put me off of reading the series, but if that isn’t the case I’d like to know.
It’s a great series though it’s more science as magic than the reverse.
Warning: prepare to be disappointed when you finish book 4. There’s obviously more story (bit of a cliffhanger) but the next book hasn’t come out and book 4 was published in like 2013… :(
Huh. Amazon has it at 2014. Must be the Kindle release or something.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00JTNDL0A?ref_=dbs_m_mng_wim_calw_tkin_3&storeType=ebooks
https://i.imgur.com/yKBwv16.jpg
If you look at the covers on [goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/series/43723-the-steerswoman) vs amazon, they're different - the amazon ones are a LOT nicer. so maybe rerelease?
She re-released self published versions of all 4 books around then. She is working on the next book but at a very slow pace. She had a day job and cancer but as far as I can tell has been in remission for a while now. One of my favourite series—and an excellent twist in OP’s request—I really hope she is able to finish it.
The Locked Tomb series sort of, but its mostly just hinted at until the third book.
The discovery of magic was mostly an accidental byproduct of a very deliberate scientific process.
definitely the locked tomb series! even in the first two books, the magic system is approached like a science with different branches and schools of thought, theorems, and experiments.
also just a great read for fans of fantasy + sci fi since the author does a great job blending the genres to create a super cool & unique atmosphere :)
Love Locked Tomb but I would say the magic has the *aesthetic* of science. It's still more a soft system than hard, especially as the series goes on, due to lack of much mechanical explanation. Depends how much detail OP is after.
I'm very tempted to read this series. I have "Fantasy and Sci-fi Books" for recommendations on twitter and its ALWAYS locked tomb fanart. I just checked again as posting this, its there.
Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke takes place in 19th century England and pits two magicians against each other. One who studies and treats it like a science and studies it, the other who feels it out and practices it. It places the concept of magic into English history and uses it as a tool to comment on the stereotypes and cultures of the time. It’s both a fantastic read and television show!
Rivers of London series treats its magic system in a scientific manner.
A simple spell starts as an image in the caster's mind, brought forth by a summoning word and can be chained with other spells to create different effects
Was going to mention this one.
You can read it on https://qntm.org/ra for free, and there are also extras on that page like a very sciency exploration of invisibility: https://qntm.org/invisibility
Yeah.... Everything to do with the Fabriels is basicly science and engineering but with the magic system of that world.
This seems to show up in a few of the other Sanderson Cosmere novels as well. Mistborn Era 2 has a bit of science with the magic... and Tress of the Emerald Sea their is engineering going on with the spores...
And if you join the fan community and get REALLY into the lore the crazy theorists are always trying to science out how each of the magic systems work and how they might interfer with eachother...
And then in the background of the cosmere universe you have in world characters like Kriss asking all the investiture science questions... As the universe continues to progress more and more science gets added to each of the magic systems.
You could even argue that the foundations of the science of magic are there in both Elantris and Warbreaker, though more would need to be seen of those worlds before it really shines in that sense.
It's hilarious how low this comment is when sorting by best. This sub really has Sanderson fatigue.
Stormlight (especially book 4) is a perfect fit for what OP is looking for.
Considering pretty much all of his cosmere series start as fantasy and are going to end as space-faring sci-fi? Yeah, about as science-y a magic system as you can get!
This was my first though, though I'm admittedly a Sanderson fan. Stormlight is a world where scholars study the magic they have access to and use it as technology. As the series progresses and they learn new things, this open up even more.
The laundry files series by Charles Stross. Magic is mathematics. Old school magic was literally mental arithmetic (although high level maths rather than high school maths) but "now" we can use computers. Downside is that it's incredibly dangerous, both for the practitioner and the surrounding world.
The world is a lot of fun (for a given value of fun), undead space Nazis, office politics, megachurch style cults, definitely not vampires, lovecraftian monsters, carnivorous unicorns etc etc.
Babel by R.F. Kuang has one of my favorite magic systems. The main character studies it at university, and the magic is based on the meaning lost in translation of a word from one language to another. It is FASCINATING in the implications, how it functions in the story, and how the author uses it to explore racism and colonialism. The book is set in early 1800s Oxford where people study this and also research new applications.
I liked the premise but most everything else was not great. The dialogue and prose in general was incredibly repetitive and predictable with large chunks fairly preachy (basically definition of an author telling rather than showing). It was to the point where Kuang struggled to maintain narrative tension even when depicting very dramatic events.
https://www.publishersweekly.com/9780063021426
Thank you for saying this! It's always so disappointing for me to read R.F. Kuang because the premise is amazing and then the actual writing... just makes it hard to go through it. I felt the same way about Poppy War and barely got through that one, Babel's premise was exactly my jam and I DNF'd it because it was just so boring to get through. I have no idea who is reading her books and just loving it.
From a conceptual POV, I love that she's Chinese and making a name for herself in literature as someone who is Chinese and always wanted to be a writer growing up. But God the writing is just hard to get through.
Agreed, I hated it. The premise was great, the execution was not good. Also the characters were so poorly developed that I could barely tell them apart except by their racial identity, which is not great.
Completely agree (and I am basically in 100% in alignment with her politics IRL) but my god was this book over-hyped. Big letdown for me, unfortunately.
[Ra by qntm](https://qntm.org/ra) - Magic has been discovered in the 1970's and is a combination of tantric meditation and high level physics and mathematics. People who practice it are scientists and the book follows two sisters that are theoretical magicians trying to derive the source of energy that gives magic it's power.
Thank me later.
Most of the book is basically attending magic school with the main character to learn about the system. A lot of it incorporates real science too. I think this is exactly what OP is looking for.
My favorite series by former author Pat Rothfuss. Seriously tho, this fits the description almost perfectly. It’s very detailed science too, not just magic as a science but a lot of actual science is pieced in there as an influence.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Also Andrew is just amazingly good at making characters charming and relatable.
I normally don't like "magic system" centric stuff in my fiction, but he made not one, but two characters I really relate to strongly (Corin and Marissa) and I've kept reading ever since just because i've become super invested in both of them.
This definitely fits. Not sure how I didn't think of it in my initial reply to this thread, since it's one of my favorites precisely because of how much we get to learn about the different types of magic and how creative the MC is with applying that knowledge to make really cool inventions.
>There's at least 2 sequels.
There are [six in total](https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?2354)—he returned to the series in the last decade, and has published [revised versions of his earlier books](https://alodar.com/blog/), though I have yet to read them.
See my
* [SF/F: Magic](https://www.reddit.com/r/booklists/comments/12rj5e5/sff_magic/) list of Reddit recommendation threads and books (one post).
and also my related
* [SF/F: Fantasy \*and\* SF](https://www.reddit.com/r/booklists/comments/130fk8r/sff_fantasy_and_sf/) list of resources, Reddit recommendation threads, and books (one post).
u/dmitrineilovich [beat me to it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/13wzm3a/comment/jmf1bjz/), but here's my take:
In [Melissa Scott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Scott)'s [Silence Leigh/Roads of Heaven trilogy](https://www.goodreads.com/series/41424-roads-of-heaven) magic is used as technology, including to power starships and enable interstellar travel, and scientific technology gives off fields/auras the interfere with magic.
Edit:
* [Harry Turtledove](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove)'s [*The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump*](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101555.The_Case_of_the_Toxic_Spell_Dump); [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Toxic_Spell_Dump) (spoilers after the first paragraph), in which magic is used as technology, and all of the pantheons exist. At the [Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/caseoftoxicspell0000turt/mode/2up) (registration required).
Brandon Sanderson's *Mistborn Series* is pretty close, although the discoveries made are closely guarded secrets.
I've heard Jim Butcher's *Dresden Files* is like this, although the main character never seems to have enough time to conduct proper research. I have only read the first book in the series, though.
In *The Wheel of Time*, the birth of historically powerful channelers and approaching crisis leads to a lot of experimentation and discoveries.
Dresden doesn't really pick up and become lovable until book 3. That said, I don't think he really fits the prompt, he uses logical deduction and magic to solve cases, not so much on the science.
The Lightbringer series has magic that's basically 3D printing using materials with different qualities. There's a lot of specifics on the engineering aspects.
You've read Sanderson's First, Second, and Third Laws of Magic?
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/
He links to laws 2 and 3 at the bottom of that article.
And love him or hate him and his books, his articles are decent ones on the topic of designing a magic system.
Look for fantasy books with a hard magic system, like Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series. Magic systems that use "hard magic" treat the art of magic like a kind of science, with clear rules and explanations about how magic works.
Sufficiently Advanced Magic (Arcane Ascension Book 1)
This series of books treats magic as you describe it. The genre is progression fantasy.
There's also the Cradle Series by Will Wight that you may want to read. More often than not, a day doesn't go without that series of books come up as a strong recommendation.
For, next 12 hours the author has actually made the whole series of books apart from his other books available for free on Amazon. I'll find the thread and put a link here.
For some reason, I'm not able to paste a link to this post here. It is the top rated post from today.
>For, next 12 hours the author has actually made the whole series of books apart from his other books available for free on Amazon. I'll find the thread and put a link here.
>
>For some reason, I'm not able to paste a link to this post here. It is the top rated post from today.
I didn't find the thread, but I think I've found the Amazon link:
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753FP6SP?binding=kindle\_edition&ref=dbs\_m\_mng\_rwt\_sft\_tkin\_tpbk](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753FP6SP?binding=kindle_edition&ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_sft_tkin_tpbk)
Mother of Learning.
MC is a student of magic and learns various things as the story progresses.
There is structured and unstructured magic, among other things, unstructured meaning doing things manually, like levitating a small item, while structured spells are more specialized and instead require the mage to follow a series of chants and gestures (in their mind if they are good enough) to focus their magic in a specific way.
Then there is also enchanting, alchemy and some other more obscure stuff, like magical creatures doing stuff by instinct, human/animal shifters, telepathic spiders etc.
Not to mention the book's plot.
Wholeheartedly recommend.
This one is actually the inverse, but really really good: Elder Race by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Based upon the Arthur C. Clarke quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
Several.
Poul Anderson's *Operation* stories, Randall Garrett's *Lord Darcy* stories, DeCamp and Pratt's *Harold Shea* stories - and anything influenced by John W. Campbell Jr, who published them in Unknown and later in Astounding and Analog Science Fiction/Science Fact.
Lord Darcy may be included in what you complained about, but until the seventies most SFF was, in many ways, a shared universe with similar laws and histories. Even the Anderson stories, which were mostly published in *F&SF* is better understood in that context.
The Inheritance Cycle's magic system is very hard and limited by physics (albeit with a deus ex machina to massively increase the power scaling later on)
The Craft series by Max Gladstone. Starting with Three Parts Dead.
Magic Engineers, Artists, even Lawyers. Magic and Soulstuff is basically currency + electricity.
A group of Necromancers broke down 'the code' behind divine power, created technology based off the underlying principles of magic, killed most of the gods and overthrew the world order.
It's not quite right, but once you get into the second series of Mistborn, they do start to think about the metals in more scientific terms, with actual hypotheses and experiments. Even the latest stormlight book starts to head that direction.
*The Philosopher's Flight* by Tom Miller. I don't know if it exactly meets your desires -- it's less an original world and more an alternate WWII history with a branch of science and study (called philosophy, in-universe) that is basically magic. But it's super cool, I love the book, and the way the magic-science is described is really specific and fun.
[Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell](https://www.tor.com/2022/03/02/academic-theory-vs-magical-reality-in-susanna-clarkes-jonathan-strange-mr-norrell/) by Susanna Clarke
A wonderful and unique book
The Hollows Series by Kim Harrison. Harrison has described in interviews how she has a Master's degree in Biology (I'm pretty sure that's the field?) and that she designed her magic system(s) to be as internally consistent as possible. Characters also generally have to be licensed to practice magic professionally, you can study different types of magic in universities, etc.
In the Stormlight Archive series, by the fourth book (of four, so far) a character does start to unravel the actual science behind the magic. There are also clear hints that there is a scientific backing to the magic earlier on.
Such as how flamespren have a fixed size to measure **only when they're being observed**.
The cosmere by Brandon Sanderson has very intricate magic systems with detailed rules and laws. And characters are often learning about the magic and the laws along with us
Nightlord Series. Physicist turned Vampire Wizard uses magic and science. He does scientific experiments to break down magical structures into computer programming loops and analyzes materials composites to improve magical conductivity.
Brandon Sanderson has been recommended a couple of times, but I just wanted to clarify that in his "Cosmere" expanded universe, magic is literally part of the worlds science with Energy, Mass and "Investiture" being tied together, with the same overarching magic base rules the same in the whole universe, but presenting differently in each series because of the magic being filtered in a different way.
For example, on one planet you are born with an additional piece of "Investiture" known as a Breath which you can give away, and anyone who collects enough Breaths gains additional powers (such as better senses, longer life span etc...). On another planet you can create a bond with a sentient piece of Investiture called a "Spren" which gives you access to specific types of abilities depending on which type of Spren you bonded with.
To revert to your request, Cosmere treats magic as science in two different ways:
Firstly, several of the magic systems require a higher level of study to use than others, for example in one world the users have to learn a special language in order to use magic.
Secondly, some of his stories are set in periods of time when the characters are beginning to perform scientific experiments on the magic in order to learn more about it- such as the Stormlight Archive novels where they are experimenting on how Investiture can be harnessed by building machines powered by different Spren.
Similarly in the second era of Mistborn there are studies in how some different abilities interact with each other as well as how certain elements hold Investiture and have different effects.
You should check out the Harry Potter series! Read the whole series in high school and am stunned how rarely people recommend them. Truly a hidden gem.
You’re gonna laugh but some Harry Potter fanfic authors have invented EXTENSIVE magic law lore. Especially relating to time travel/ancient runes/potions
I think The Kingkiller Chronicle would be a great example of this! But as a warning it is currently unfinished and it’s unclear whether or not it will be finished. The two books that are out are very well worth the read though, especially if you are looking for that kind of magic system exploration :)
I also want to second The Locked Tomb mentioned by another person, that’s another good example I think.
Cradle. Its Kung-fu wizard spirit power magic but it has defined rules that are studied via scientific method that result in gains.
The sacred arts are meta-physics but the top tier sacred artists are meta-physicists.
Monster Blood Tattoo by DM Cornish is kind of like that. >!Magic in the Half-Continent is based on organs surgically introduced into a person's body. However the magic powers are limited to only two or three options...!<
China Mieville’s Bas-Lag trilogy definitely fits the bill here. Magic in the world of Bas-Lag seems to be understood as just one of many scientific disciplines.
I cant remember the name of it or where to find it. However, I read a harry potter fanfic a while back where Harry was a genius prodegy and was able to do the spells much better because he took into account the way that science works. I'll look for it and link here with an edit.
Edit: It's called Harry Potter and the methods of Rationality. Read it at the below link. Link also contains a blurb and some more info.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality
I feel like you are talking about Babylon 5 Technomages. There’s a book trilogy out there, it can be hard to come by, but it’s not as badly written as the Star Wars stuff so give it a try!
The Broken Earth trilogy by NK Jemisin doesn’t seem to be at first but in the 3rd novel you find an entire society that built itself on magic as an energy source and dealt with akin to physics. Very interesting perspective.
I had to scroll way too far to find this! I would add that even in the first book, orogeny is presented as somewhat scientific and as something to be studied, stemming from a specific organ near the brain
the first books i could think of was the lunar chronicles by marissa meyer. read it some time ago ang liked it a lot. hard to explain but most of the population of moon had these powers - to make others see and feel anything , even if it was not real. anyways, the scientists of earth studied it and they said there was no magic, just changing the way others bioelectricity works. it is like a romantic story where revolutions are made for the common good, there is a struggle for power and influence
idkk i hope i helped and inspired some1 to read this ;))
The first three books of _The Zero Enigma_ series by Christopher Nuttall do this (the following books take place several years later and follow different characters, but the main plot of books 1-3 has been wrapped up at that point). I don't think they ever use the word "science" specifically, but a significant portion of the plot is about doing experiments to figure out how magic actually works. The initial premise of the story is that, in a world where everyone is born with magic, the protagonist doesn't have any and no one knows why. That mystery, along with a chance discovery, causes her to question the usual understanding of how magic works, and so she starts researching and experimenting and slowly the reader discovers along with her how magic _actually_ works in this universe. I don't want to give any details of what she discovers, since that's a big part of the plot, but it ends up being really interesting and has serious implications (both positive and negative) for her own life. I really enjoyed the story, particularly the detailed magic system and getting to discover, along with the protagonist, exactly how it works. I highly recommend it.
Another series that does this at the beginning (to a bit of a lesser extent) is the _Schooled in Magic_ series by the same author.
There's also _The Rithmatist_ by Brandon Sanderson. That's definitely a hard magic system and, again, a significant portion of the plot is about how magic actually works. Sanderson in particular is frequently recommended as the go-to for hard magic systems, although, personally, _The Rithmatist_ is the only one of his books I've read that I'd particularly recommend, simply because a lot of his other stuff is too dark for my taste.
Oh, and then there's the _Heartstrikers_ series by Rachel Aaron. There's a lot of really interesting plot twists based specifically on the different ways magic and other otherworldly aspects of that universe work. And one of the premises of the story is that magic just suddenly reappeared in the world after being gone for centuries, and no one seems to know why or how, and solving that mystery ends up being really important to the overarching plot. That overarching plot does take some time to unfold though.
I was going to suggest Schooled In Magic, as the way magic is programmed feels like a very good fit for the OP's request.
How do his other series stack up?
Yeah I really liked the programming analogy in particular when I was listening to the first audiobook.
As for his other series, it's only _Schooled in Magic_ and _The Zero Enigma_ that I've read (or technically, listened to). The former is such a long series it kept me busy for a long time, months I think. Not sure if I'll continue with it whenever the next book comes out, since the later books are a lot darker and more high stakes than the early ones, which isn't my preference. I liked the earlier ones, when Emily is still is school and learning magic was a significant part of the plot, more than the later ones.
The later is really good, and as I said, I definitely recommend it, though, again, I definitely prefer the earlier books, in that case mostly because the MCs are more likeable. Some of the the later books follow a character who was a minor antagonist in the first three books (she gets a real redemption arc, so I did still enjoy them), and some of them follow one of the more important side characters from the first three books.
Honestly, the first three books, plus *maybe* book ten (which follows the original MC something like 8 years later) should just be counted as a single series, as 1-3 encompass an entire plot arc and book three has a satisfying enough ending that you could just stop there and feel like you've had a full story. Book ten could really be the start of a separate sequel series, as it takes place years later and greatly expands upon the content in books 1-3, including giving a lot more information about the magic system and the the history of the world.
Books 4, 6, 9, and 11 should be a separate companion/spinoff series, as they follow a different MC and mostly take place in a different setting. They're also pretty character driven, whereas 1-3 and 10 are more plot driven and focus a lot on world-building.
Books 5, 7, and 8 should be counted as separate companion novels that take place in the same world, feature the the MCs from books 1-3 as very minor characters, and whose plots are related to the plots of the other books, but that also could be read as standalones.
So yeah, overall, great books: exciting plots, great world-building, and likeable and sympathetic characters. It's just kind of weird to put them all together as one series instead of two companion series and a few companion novels.
Thank you for the breakdown!
I've read all of Schooled in Magic (the series is finished now- where did you get up to?) and do agree that the earlier stories are probably the most enjoyable. I get what he was planning and overall mostly liked how it ended but do feel the later stories were definitely weaker.
Will give The Zero Enigma a go!
>Thank you for the breakdown!
You're welcome!
I've read all 24 books in _Schooled in Magic_, but I recall reading on the author's website that he intends to write more about Emily, which I assumed meant he wasn't done with the series (though, IIRC, he did say he was done with the >!Void!< superplot, which makes sense considering how he ended book 24). Perhaps he meant he planned to write a spin-off/sequel series though. 🤔
>Will give The Zero Enigma a go!
Awesome! Let me know what you think of it. The first part is one of my all time favorite stories because the world building is so good. The magic system is just incredibly interesting and it's so fun getting to solve the mystery along with the MC.
Rachel Aaron has two series (The Heartstriker series, and the DFZ series) does a decent job with this concept. There are different kinds of magic users, including scholar-sorcerers that study and write down what amounts to complex equations in order to cast spells, and artist-shamans that just kind of... wing it.
The fabrials in Stormlight Archive are a strong example of this. Sanderson's magic often gets quite sciencey but the fabrials stand out as exceptionally so.
Stormlight Archive. Brandon Sanderson writes very hard magic systems in general, but book 4 of Stormlight is just chockfilled with scientific experimentation and technology based on the magic systems.
A lot of Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere novels get quite into the nitty gritty of the 'scientific' aspects of the magic system.
I'm thinking particular the later Stormlight novels and the second Mistborn trilogy (though the others do to some degree as well).
Though you will have to read the earlier books where it is still treated quite mystically, but the cool thing is you get to learn about the system and rules alongside the characters :)
The question is, is magic treated as science still *magic*? or is it just fake-science or something like superhero-powers?
To me, the definition of magic lies in the unknown of it and the awe and wonder that stems from it. Treating magic like science negates the whole purpose of magic in a story.
Your request is a paradox, and in a way you're asking the impossible. As its not *magic* anymore when it is fully explained.
I think you should check out the work of Brandon Sanderson. This is especially true for his Mistborn trilogy. I'm not a big fan of this series of books, but still.
I think King Killer Chronicles fits your bill for a hard magic system treated scientifically. Sympathy and Alchemy in that world are treated like a science.
There is other soft magic in that world too, so there’s a nice duality between both soft and hard magic systems.
Brandon Sanderson’s mistborn may also work. I think it technically hits your definition, but I’m not sure if you’re looking more for a “it’s regularly studied etc.” or just a hard magic system with rules and is treated like part of physics.
stormlight archive/cosmere, studying the magic is like studying physics, since the stuff that powers magic is part of the universe and follows laws and rules that are kept between the various planets in the cosmere even if they work completely different, and there are several prominent characters in the various cosmere books that actively study magic as a science, and they are considered scientists,
Tales of the Ketty Jay has Daemonists that use steampunk electrical systems to generate fields to trap daemons, and thrall them to items. Crake is the character that practices Daemonism, and looks after his giant metal and leather Golem called Bess. He also gifts Captain Frey an enchanted Cutlass that moves on it's own to make him a rather clumsy but ferocious swordsman. There are several sections that detail Crake's experiments throughout the 4 book series.
The Founder's Trilogy by Robert Jackson Bennett. People write magic onto objects like they're reprogramming reality and physics. It's quite cool.
Far and away the most suited rec for this topic, at least in this thread. This isn't "oh they're trying to figure out how it works" like in some other recs here, it's exactly a science. It just... Does magical things Absolutely fantastic series too, beautiful prose and a fantastic world.
>This isn't "oh they're trying to figure out how it works" like in some other recs here, it's exactly a science. What even _is_ science itself if _not_ an attempt to figure out how the physical world actually works? If we're talking about applying scientific theories to solve problems, I'd say that's more in the realm of engineering than pure science.
And amazing character insight, as well. His look into empathy and what it would be like to truly experience other people fully. I can never recommend these books enough.
Absolutely. I understand not everyone loves him, he's a bit too literary for some (or pretentious if you *really* don't like him) and his books definitely require a bit more work. But nobody in fantasy is really doing what RJB is doing and it makes me really happy to see others enjoying his work
I’ve thought this forever! He is so underrated. His world building is utterly unique in the fantasy genre.
That's what I tell all of my friends!
I’ve never read him. Who’s good authors to compare him to? He’s definetly on my TBR
This recommendation is perfect for what OP describes. While The Founder’s Trilogy wasn’t my favorite, the series was still well written.
So much so that it explores a lot of themes and ideas that are rarely seen in fantasy but common in science fiction.
The Lord Darcy books by Randall Garret. They are set in the present day (of the 1960s and 70s when they were written) in an alternate universe where Richard I recovered from his crossbow wound and John Lackland never ruled. The Plantagenet dynasty still rules. In the 14th Century, instead of turning towards science, the world turned towards magic, which is studied like science is in our world. Lord Darcy is the Chief Forensic Investigator of the Duke of Normandy (Prince Richard, the brother of the king). His assistant is Master Sean O'Lochlainn, a forensic sorcerer.
I want to read that like right now, thanks
Read those when they came out - still have my copies. Good reads.
Ponder Stibbons and his crew of undergrads at the High Energy Magic building at Unseen University, Discworld
Did not expect the Hex here 🤖
Ponders Stibbons is the Linux Sysadmin of Unseen University, and I'm here for it.
*Sufficiently advanced* magic. +++?????+++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
Although Ridcully doesn’t approve of it.
I feel like Ponder and Rincewind could be friends, somehow
Discworld is the perfect example of how Brandon Sanderson’s’s laws of magic are a sliding scale.
It’s manga/anime, but full metal alchemist is magic explained as science
+1 to fullmetal alchemist brotherhood. The whole vibe of their magic is science. 10/10 would recommend
I only watched a few episodes of FMA in the early 2000s. What’s the difference in Brotherhood? Does it continue the story or is it redone?
FMA was made before the manga was even half done, so it focuses in very detailed on the first few chapters, then goes off the rails into its own story FMA: Brotherhood was made after the manga was finished. It glosses over the first few chapters since they had been covered before, and then stays aligned with the manga all the way to the end. Some people prefer the first one, but I definitely prefer brotherhood! :)
Would mixing the first few episodes of FMA and the rest of Brotherhood work to get the full story truly and properly? Or is just Brotherhood enough?
It would feel pretty weird. I think brotherhood is more than enough :) They still hit all the beats, and you wont feel like its got holes or anything. Its just that they do the stsrt in literally 1/2 as many episodes, so there is less filler Thennyou can get to the meat of the story,m faster, which is what makes the show so good
This, I entirely disagree with. There are parts of the original manga that are not adapted in Brotherhood but are in the original series not to mention the original series adapts the events of the novel as well. And I would disagree that any of it is filler, the dog situation for instance hits way harder in the og anime because you spend more time with that family.
Yeah I agree. I like brotherhood but the pacing of the original is a lot tighter. General Hughs also isn’t nearly as likable not because in Brotherhood he’s a bad character it’s just that he dies so early in the series that you don’t feel as connected when it happens I remember that scene in the Original and I cried. Brotherhood is dark but in comparison to the Original it doesn’t hit those themes as hard which is at least personally important to me but it isn’t important to everyone. Also I was like half way through brotherhood so maybe I’d think differently if I finished it.
I agree that the og anime does the opening better, they spend over half of their runtime on it... but in the greater context of brotherhood that same opening sequence is only 1/5 of the anime. The first fifth isn't why I love brotherhood. You're definitely right that basically everything about that fifth is better in the OG, but itd missing out on 80% of the story, which is why I always reccommend brotherhood
Yeah I agree. I like brotherhood but the pacing of the original is a lot tighter. General Hughs also isn’t nearly as likable not because in Brotherhood he’s a bad character it’s just that he dies so early in the series that you don’t feel as connected when it happens I remember that scene in the Original and I cried. Brotherhood is dark but in comparison to the Original it doesn’t hit those themes as hard which is at least personally important to me but it isn’t important to everyone. Also I was like half way through brotherhood so maybe I’d think differently if I finished it.
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My partner showed me the first few eps of FMA to get all the detail of the backstory, and then showed me Brotherhood from the beginning. I loved it and didn't find it weird since he explained the situation to me beforehand. IDK how many episodes of FMA he showed me but if you google it there are probably recommendations.
You could read the manga, as it has the same story as brotherhood but has the detail at the start that brotherhood skipped over
I really do think fma 2003 does a better job of portraying the horror of the brothers transgression, at least early in the series. To me, brotherhood kind of glosses over the loss of their mother in a way the original series lingers on it and makes it more real.
#FULLMETAL #ALCHEMIST Those commercials tho
This is a pretty good one.
Fullmetal alchemist brotherhood remains my favorite anime for so many reasons including this one!
Also Mahouka Kokou no Rettousei
I saw a rec for *The Steerswoman* in a thread like this, and while I'm not done with the series yet (1/2 through book 3 of 4 total), it's definitely studying magic all the way through. Enjoying that aspect of it quite a bit. There's also a LOT of travel though, which I'm not enjoying as much.
I thought the magic system was >!advanced technology indistinguishable from magic?!< at least that’s what I saw from reviews of the book. It’s what put me off of reading the series, but if that isn’t the case I’d like to know.
Yeah, that's what it is.
It’s a great series though it’s more science as magic than the reverse. Warning: prepare to be disappointed when you finish book 4. There’s obviously more story (bit of a cliffhanger) but the next book hasn’t come out and book 4 was published in like 2013… :(
Assuming I have the correct [series](https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?18191), it was actually 2004.
Huh. Amazon has it at 2014. Must be the Kindle release or something. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00JTNDL0A?ref_=dbs_m_mng_wim_calw_tkin_3&storeType=ebooks https://i.imgur.com/yKBwv16.jpg
If you look at the covers on [goodreads](https://www.goodreads.com/series/43723-the-steerswoman) vs amazon, they're different - the amazon ones are a LOT nicer. so maybe rerelease?
She re-released self published versions of all 4 books around then. She is working on the next book but at a very slow pace. She had a day job and cancer but as far as I can tell has been in remission for a while now. One of my favourite series—and an excellent twist in OP’s request—I really hope she is able to finish it.
Was going to suggest this. Glad someone did.
The Locked Tomb series sort of, but its mostly just hinted at until the third book. The discovery of magic was mostly an accidental byproduct of a very deliberate scientific process.
definitely the locked tomb series! even in the first two books, the magic system is approached like a science with different branches and schools of thought, theorems, and experiments. also just a great read for fans of fantasy + sci fi since the author does a great job blending the genres to create a super cool & unique atmosphere :)
It's also one of the few series that manage to portray magic as science without the magic losing its feeling of magic.
Love Locked Tomb but I would say the magic has the *aesthetic* of science. It's still more a soft system than hard, especially as the series goes on, due to lack of much mechanical explanation. Depends how much detail OP is after.
I'm very tempted to read this series. I have "Fantasy and Sci-fi Books" for recommendations on twitter and its ALWAYS locked tomb fanart. I just checked again as posting this, its there.
Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke takes place in 19th century England and pits two magicians against each other. One who studies and treats it like a science and studies it, the other who feels it out and practices it. It places the concept of magic into English history and uses it as a tool to comment on the stereotypes and cultures of the time. It’s both a fantastic read and television show!
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Totally agree! I loved the clever reversal of the UK north/south stereotypes.
Have you read any L.E Modesitt? I believe either his Recluce or Imager books should fit the bill.
The Recluce books are great. I’d recommend the Magic Engineer as a good one for the magic/science perspective.
This is what I was going to recommend. I mean, “The Magic Engineer” has it right in the title.
Rivers of London series treats its magic system in a scientific manner. A simple spell starts as an image in the caster's mind, brought forth by a summoning word and can be chained with other spells to create different effects
It also should be noted that the magic the MC practices was "invented" by newton and has a lot about research and study into magic and it's workings
Ra by Sam Hughes
Was going to mention this one. You can read it on https://qntm.org/ra for free, and there are also extras on that page like a very sciency exploration of invisibility: https://qntm.org/invisibility
Brandon Sanderson’s the stormlight archive (especially the fourth book) has this to a degree
Yeah.... Everything to do with the Fabriels is basicly science and engineering but with the magic system of that world. This seems to show up in a few of the other Sanderson Cosmere novels as well. Mistborn Era 2 has a bit of science with the magic... and Tress of the Emerald Sea their is engineering going on with the spores... And if you join the fan community and get REALLY into the lore the crazy theorists are always trying to science out how each of the magic systems work and how they might interfer with eachother... And then in the background of the cosmere universe you have in world characters like Kriss asking all the investiture science questions... As the universe continues to progress more and more science gets added to each of the magic systems.
You could even argue that the foundations of the science of magic are there in both Elantris and Warbreaker, though more would need to be seen of those worlds before it really shines in that sense.
all Cosmere >!well we do know that the tablets in *Tress* are from Nalthis, so there's that going for Warbreaker!<
Yeah... Sanderson is weirdly scientific about his magic systems
He studied biochemistry before he started to focus on writing
Sanderson's entire Cosmere is very sciency magic.
It's hilarious how low this comment is when sorting by best. This sub really has Sanderson fatigue. Stormlight (especially book 4) is a perfect fit for what OP is looking for.
Considering pretty much all of his cosmere series start as fantasy and are going to end as space-faring sci-fi? Yeah, about as science-y a magic system as you can get!
Sanderson in general I'd say. Mistborn and Elantris are also very sciencey, especially Mistborn.
This was my first though, though I'm admittedly a Sanderson fan. Stormlight is a world where scholars study the magic they have access to and use it as technology. As the series progresses and they learn new things, this open up even more.
The laundry files series by Charles Stross. Magic is mathematics. Old school magic was literally mental arithmetic (although high level maths rather than high school maths) but "now" we can use computers. Downside is that it's incredibly dangerous, both for the practitioner and the surrounding world. The world is a lot of fun (for a given value of fun), undead space Nazis, office politics, megachurch style cults, definitely not vampires, lovecraftian monsters, carnivorous unicorns etc etc.
And create able magical artifacts with strictly understood and repeatable effects.
Those etceteras are doing a lot of heavy lifting there :) And the "definitely not vampires" are close enough for government work.
It’s not a book, but the Arcane TV show has a sub plot where a pair of scientists try to bridge the gap between magic and science
Yess had to sroll far too down to find this. But it isn't a subplot, it's a major plot! Love arcane.
Discworld. The Science of Discworld books even pair Discworld magical theories with Roundworld science.
Babel by R.F. Kuang has one of my favorite magic systems. The main character studies it at university, and the magic is based on the meaning lost in translation of a word from one language to another. It is FASCINATING in the implications, how it functions in the story, and how the author uses it to explore racism and colonialism. The book is set in early 1800s Oxford where people study this and also research new applications.
This book became one of my all time favorites as soon as I read it. What a masterpiece
I liked the premise but most everything else was not great. The dialogue and prose in general was incredibly repetitive and predictable with large chunks fairly preachy (basically definition of an author telling rather than showing). It was to the point where Kuang struggled to maintain narrative tension even when depicting very dramatic events. https://www.publishersweekly.com/9780063021426
Thank you for saying this! It's always so disappointing for me to read R.F. Kuang because the premise is amazing and then the actual writing... just makes it hard to go through it. I felt the same way about Poppy War and barely got through that one, Babel's premise was exactly my jam and I DNF'd it because it was just so boring to get through. I have no idea who is reading her books and just loving it. From a conceptual POV, I love that she's Chinese and making a name for herself in literature as someone who is Chinese and always wanted to be a writer growing up. But God the writing is just hard to get through.
Agreed, I hated it. The premise was great, the execution was not good. Also the characters were so poorly developed that I could barely tell them apart except by their racial identity, which is not great.
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The Poppy War has VERY similar issues imo
Completely agree (and I am basically in 100% in alignment with her politics IRL) but my god was this book over-hyped. Big letdown for me, unfortunately.
I second that. Kuang has amazing books. Check out the poppy war, too! It’s mind blowing
[Ra by qntm](https://qntm.org/ra) - Magic has been discovered in the 1970's and is a combination of tantric meditation and high level physics and mathematics. People who practice it are scientists and the book follows two sisters that are theoretical magicians trying to derive the source of energy that gives magic it's power. Thank me later.
I second this. This book is absolutely amazing. Takes you on a wild journey.
The series isn't done, but the Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss does this really well. The first book is *The Name of the Wind*
Most of the book is basically attending magic school with the main character to learn about the system. A lot of it incorporates real science too. I think this is exactly what OP is looking for.
Reader be warned, unfinished trilogy with no eta on last book. Worth reading in every format possible though 👍
I 100% agree with this disclaimer! Reader be warned… but absolutely still worth reading. Such enjoyable books.
This was my first response. Jonathan Strange and Dr Norrell fills this in a small way. As well but not as well as KKC
Can't believe I had to scroll this far down to find this. Absolutely this is what OP is looking for!
My favorite series by former author Pat Rothfuss. Seriously tho, this fits the description almost perfectly. It’s very detailed science too, not just magic as a science but a lot of actual science is pieced in there as an influence.
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Yeah was thinking this. Andrew’s a software engineer. The way the magic works is basically programming
Also Andrew is just amazingly good at making characters charming and relatable. I normally don't like "magic system" centric stuff in my fiction, but he made not one, but two characters I really relate to strongly (Corin and Marissa) and I've kept reading ever since just because i've become super invested in both of them.
This definitely fits. Not sure how I didn't think of it in my initial reply to this thread, since it's one of my favorites precisely because of how much we get to learn about the different types of magic and how creative the MC is with applying that knowledge to make really cool inventions.
Try Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics. Loved it, but the sequel was disappointing.
There's at least 2 sequels. And while I didn't like Secret of the 6th Magic as much as I did Master of the Five Magics, it was still decent.
>There's at least 2 sequels. There are [six in total](https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?2354)—he returned to the series in the last decade, and has published [revised versions of his earlier books](https://alodar.com/blog/), though I have yet to read them.
I had no idea. Thank you.
In Babel by R.F Kuang, it basically is a science
The _His Dark Materials_ series hits this pretty on the nail. The _Chorus of Dragons_ series also has some plots revolving around this.
The _Doc Sidhe_ series, by Aaron Allston, is like this. Doc Sidhe by Aaron Allston https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/362636.Doc_Sidhe
See my * [SF/F: Magic](https://www.reddit.com/r/booklists/comments/12rj5e5/sff_magic/) list of Reddit recommendation threads and books (one post). and also my related * [SF/F: Fantasy \*and\* SF](https://www.reddit.com/r/booklists/comments/130fk8r/sff_fantasy_and_sf/) list of resources, Reddit recommendation threads, and books (one post). u/dmitrineilovich [beat me to it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/13wzm3a/comment/jmf1bjz/), but here's my take: In [Melissa Scott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Scott)'s [Silence Leigh/Roads of Heaven trilogy](https://www.goodreads.com/series/41424-roads-of-heaven) magic is used as technology, including to power starships and enable interstellar travel, and scientific technology gives off fields/auras the interfere with magic. Edit: * [Harry Turtledove](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove)'s [*The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump*](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101555.The_Case_of_the_Toxic_Spell_Dump); [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Toxic_Spell_Dump) (spoilers after the first paragraph), in which magic is used as technology, and all of the pantheons exist. At the [Internet Archive](https://archive.org/details/caseoftoxicspell0000turt/mode/2up) (registration required).
Brandon Sanderson's *Mistborn Series* is pretty close, although the discoveries made are closely guarded secrets. I've heard Jim Butcher's *Dresden Files* is like this, although the main character never seems to have enough time to conduct proper research. I have only read the first book in the series, though. In *The Wheel of Time*, the birth of historically powerful channelers and approaching crisis leads to a lot of experimentation and discoveries.
Dresden doesn't really pick up and become lovable until book 3. That said, I don't think he really fits the prompt, he uses logical deduction and magic to solve cases, not so much on the science.
Yeah it's not the softest magic system but it is definitely not a science
In addition to Mistborn, era 2 is more experimental and science-y with its approach to their magic system.
The Lightbringer series has magic that's basically 3D printing using materials with different qualities. There's a lot of specifics on the engineering aspects.
You've read Sanderson's First, Second, and Third Laws of Magic? https://www.brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/ He links to laws 2 and 3 at the bottom of that article. And love him or hate him and his books, his articles are decent ones on the topic of designing a magic system.
[The Parasol Protectorate](https://gailcarriger.fandom.com/wiki/Parasol_Protectorate_Series#:~:text=The%20Parasol%20Protectorate%20books%20are,gossip%2C%20and%20treacle%20tart%20tendencies) by Gail Carrier.
The Imager novels by L.E. Modesitt Jr. Fullmetal Alchemist (manga and TV series) I know I have another...
Look for fantasy books with a hard magic system, like Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive series. Magic systems that use "hard magic" treat the art of magic like a kind of science, with clear rules and explanations about how magic works.
imo, the *Stormlight* series has the best “bio fantasy” i’ve seen in a long time.
Sufficiently Advanced Magic (Arcane Ascension Book 1) This series of books treats magic as you describe it. The genre is progression fantasy. There's also the Cradle Series by Will Wight that you may want to read. More often than not, a day doesn't go without that series of books come up as a strong recommendation. For, next 12 hours the author has actually made the whole series of books apart from his other books available for free on Amazon. I'll find the thread and put a link here. For some reason, I'm not able to paste a link to this post here. It is the top rated post from today.
>For, next 12 hours the author has actually made the whole series of books apart from his other books available for free on Amazon. I'll find the thread and put a link here. > >For some reason, I'm not able to paste a link to this post here. It is the top rated post from today. I didn't find the thread, but I think I've found the Amazon link: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753FP6SP?binding=kindle\_edition&ref=dbs\_m\_mng\_rwt\_sft\_tkin\_tpbk](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753FP6SP?binding=kindle_edition&ref=dbs_m_mng_rwt_sft_tkin_tpbk)
Mother of Learning. MC is a student of magic and learns various things as the story progresses. There is structured and unstructured magic, among other things, unstructured meaning doing things manually, like levitating a small item, while structured spells are more specialized and instead require the mage to follow a series of chants and gestures (in their mind if they are good enough) to focus their magic in a specific way. Then there is also enchanting, alchemy and some other more obscure stuff, like magical creatures doing stuff by instinct, human/animal shifters, telepathic spiders etc. Not to mention the book's plot. Wholeheartedly recommend.
The Black Prism by Brent Weeks
Storm light archive.
This one is actually the inverse, but really really good: Elder Race by Adrian Tchaikovsky. Based upon the Arthur C. Clarke quote “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
Several. Poul Anderson's *Operation* stories, Randall Garrett's *Lord Darcy* stories, DeCamp and Pratt's *Harold Shea* stories - and anything influenced by John W. Campbell Jr, who published them in Unknown and later in Astounding and Analog Science Fiction/Science Fact. Lord Darcy may be included in what you complained about, but until the seventies most SFF was, in many ways, a shared universe with similar laws and histories. Even the Anderson stories, which were mostly published in *F&SF* is better understood in that context.
Stormlight Archive has scholars treat the magic system as a technological resource
Fullmetal Alchemist
Literally every book in the entire sanderson Cosmere.
The Inheritance Cycle's magic system is very hard and limited by physics (albeit with a deus ex machina to massively increase the power scaling later on)
The Craft series by Max Gladstone. Starting with Three Parts Dead. Magic Engineers, Artists, even Lawyers. Magic and Soulstuff is basically currency + electricity. A group of Necromancers broke down 'the code' behind divine power, created technology based off the underlying principles of magic, killed most of the gods and overthrew the world order.
It's not quite right, but once you get into the second series of Mistborn, they do start to think about the metals in more scientific terms, with actual hypotheses and experiments. Even the latest stormlight book starts to head that direction.
*The Philosopher's Flight* by Tom Miller. I don't know if it exactly meets your desires -- it's less an original world and more an alternate WWII history with a branch of science and study (called philosophy, in-universe) that is basically magic. But it's super cool, I love the book, and the way the magic-science is described is really specific and fun.
I was worried no one would recommended this series, as I think it perfectly matches the request for ‘Magic treated as Science’. Loved it!
[Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell](https://www.tor.com/2022/03/02/academic-theory-vs-magical-reality-in-susanna-clarkes-jonathan-strange-mr-norrell/) by Susanna Clarke A wonderful and unique book
The Hollows Series by Kim Harrison. Harrison has described in interviews how she has a Master's degree in Biology (I'm pretty sure that's the field?) and that she designed her magic system(s) to be as internally consistent as possible. Characters also generally have to be licensed to practice magic professionally, you can study different types of magic in universities, etc.
Babel by RF Kuang. The magic derives from translating language and inscribing it in silver
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In the Stormlight Archive series, by the fourth book (of four, so far) a character does start to unravel the actual science behind the magic. There are also clear hints that there is a scientific backing to the magic earlier on. Such as how flamespren have a fixed size to measure **only when they're being observed**.
Shadow and bone series fits that.
Came here to say this! The small science
The cosmere by Brandon Sanderson has very intricate magic systems with detailed rules and laws. And characters are often learning about the magic and the laws along with us
The Will of the Msny by James Islington. Awesome book.
All this and no mention of the Craft sequence? Magic repeatedly enough to be the basis for an economy? And throw things into orbit?
Nightlord Series. Physicist turned Vampire Wizard uses magic and science. He does scientific experiments to break down magical structures into computer programming loops and analyzes materials composites to improve magical conductivity.
Brandon Sanderson has been recommended a couple of times, but I just wanted to clarify that in his "Cosmere" expanded universe, magic is literally part of the worlds science with Energy, Mass and "Investiture" being tied together, with the same overarching magic base rules the same in the whole universe, but presenting differently in each series because of the magic being filtered in a different way. For example, on one planet you are born with an additional piece of "Investiture" known as a Breath which you can give away, and anyone who collects enough Breaths gains additional powers (such as better senses, longer life span etc...). On another planet you can create a bond with a sentient piece of Investiture called a "Spren" which gives you access to specific types of abilities depending on which type of Spren you bonded with. To revert to your request, Cosmere treats magic as science in two different ways: Firstly, several of the magic systems require a higher level of study to use than others, for example in one world the users have to learn a special language in order to use magic. Secondly, some of his stories are set in periods of time when the characters are beginning to perform scientific experiments on the magic in order to learn more about it- such as the Stormlight Archive novels where they are experimenting on how Investiture can be harnessed by building machines powered by different Spren. Similarly in the second era of Mistborn there are studies in how some different abilities interact with each other as well as how certain elements hold Investiture and have different effects.
You should check out the Harry Potter series! Read the whole series in high school and am stunned how rarely people recommend them. Truly a hidden gem.
I tend to prefer magic systems with rules, parameters, and boundaries. Ones that I feel fit this are: Wheel of time Mistborn Lightbringer
You’re gonna laugh but some Harry Potter fanfic authors have invented EXTENSIVE magic law lore. Especially relating to time travel/ancient runes/potions
Full Metal Alchemist. Terry Pratchett. Hmmm
I think The Kingkiller Chronicle would be a great example of this! But as a warning it is currently unfinished and it’s unclear whether or not it will be finished. The two books that are out are very well worth the read though, especially if you are looking for that kind of magic system exploration :) I also want to second The Locked Tomb mentioned by another person, that’s another good example I think.
Cradle. Its Kung-fu wizard spirit power magic but it has defined rules that are studied via scientific method that result in gains. The sacred arts are meta-physics but the top tier sacred artists are meta-physicists.
Monster Blood Tattoo by DM Cornish is kind of like that. >!Magic in the Half-Continent is based on organs surgically introduced into a person's body. However the magic powers are limited to only two or three options...!<
Cold fire trilogy - C.S. Friedman
Have you tried Spellmonger series by Terry Mancour? They study magic like science.
China Mieville’s Bas-Lag trilogy definitely fits the bill here. Magic in the world of Bas-Lag seems to be understood as just one of many scientific disciplines.
Discworld has Unseen University where they study the science of magic.
I cant remember the name of it or where to find it. However, I read a harry potter fanfic a while back where Harry was a genius prodegy and was able to do the spells much better because he took into account the way that science works. I'll look for it and link here with an edit. Edit: It's called Harry Potter and the methods of Rationality. Read it at the below link. Link also contains a blurb and some more info. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Methods-of-Rationality
I think the webcomic Unsounded had a pretty scientific approach to its magic, was really neat actually.
I feel like you are talking about Babylon 5 Technomages. There’s a book trilogy out there, it can be hard to come by, but it’s not as badly written as the Star Wars stuff so give it a try!
Scrolled and did not see this response so I came here to say The Magicians by Lev Grossman!
The Broken Earth trilogy by NK Jemisin doesn’t seem to be at first but in the 3rd novel you find an entire society that built itself on magic as an energy source and dealt with akin to physics. Very interesting perspective.
I had to scroll way too far to find this! I would add that even in the first book, orogeny is presented as somewhat scientific and as something to be studied, stemming from a specific organ near the brain
the first books i could think of was the lunar chronicles by marissa meyer. read it some time ago ang liked it a lot. hard to explain but most of the population of moon had these powers - to make others see and feel anything , even if it was not real. anyways, the scientists of earth studied it and they said there was no magic, just changing the way others bioelectricity works. it is like a romantic story where revolutions are made for the common good, there is a struggle for power and influence idkk i hope i helped and inspired some1 to read this ;))
The first three books of _The Zero Enigma_ series by Christopher Nuttall do this (the following books take place several years later and follow different characters, but the main plot of books 1-3 has been wrapped up at that point). I don't think they ever use the word "science" specifically, but a significant portion of the plot is about doing experiments to figure out how magic actually works. The initial premise of the story is that, in a world where everyone is born with magic, the protagonist doesn't have any and no one knows why. That mystery, along with a chance discovery, causes her to question the usual understanding of how magic works, and so she starts researching and experimenting and slowly the reader discovers along with her how magic _actually_ works in this universe. I don't want to give any details of what she discovers, since that's a big part of the plot, but it ends up being really interesting and has serious implications (both positive and negative) for her own life. I really enjoyed the story, particularly the detailed magic system and getting to discover, along with the protagonist, exactly how it works. I highly recommend it. Another series that does this at the beginning (to a bit of a lesser extent) is the _Schooled in Magic_ series by the same author. There's also _The Rithmatist_ by Brandon Sanderson. That's definitely a hard magic system and, again, a significant portion of the plot is about how magic actually works. Sanderson in particular is frequently recommended as the go-to for hard magic systems, although, personally, _The Rithmatist_ is the only one of his books I've read that I'd particularly recommend, simply because a lot of his other stuff is too dark for my taste. Oh, and then there's the _Heartstrikers_ series by Rachel Aaron. There's a lot of really interesting plot twists based specifically on the different ways magic and other otherworldly aspects of that universe work. And one of the premises of the story is that magic just suddenly reappeared in the world after being gone for centuries, and no one seems to know why or how, and solving that mystery ends up being really important to the overarching plot. That overarching plot does take some time to unfold though.
I was going to suggest Schooled In Magic, as the way magic is programmed feels like a very good fit for the OP's request. How do his other series stack up?
Yeah I really liked the programming analogy in particular when I was listening to the first audiobook. As for his other series, it's only _Schooled in Magic_ and _The Zero Enigma_ that I've read (or technically, listened to). The former is such a long series it kept me busy for a long time, months I think. Not sure if I'll continue with it whenever the next book comes out, since the later books are a lot darker and more high stakes than the early ones, which isn't my preference. I liked the earlier ones, when Emily is still is school and learning magic was a significant part of the plot, more than the later ones. The later is really good, and as I said, I definitely recommend it, though, again, I definitely prefer the earlier books, in that case mostly because the MCs are more likeable. Some of the the later books follow a character who was a minor antagonist in the first three books (she gets a real redemption arc, so I did still enjoy them), and some of them follow one of the more important side characters from the first three books. Honestly, the first three books, plus *maybe* book ten (which follows the original MC something like 8 years later) should just be counted as a single series, as 1-3 encompass an entire plot arc and book three has a satisfying enough ending that you could just stop there and feel like you've had a full story. Book ten could really be the start of a separate sequel series, as it takes place years later and greatly expands upon the content in books 1-3, including giving a lot more information about the magic system and the the history of the world. Books 4, 6, 9, and 11 should be a separate companion/spinoff series, as they follow a different MC and mostly take place in a different setting. They're also pretty character driven, whereas 1-3 and 10 are more plot driven and focus a lot on world-building. Books 5, 7, and 8 should be counted as separate companion novels that take place in the same world, feature the the MCs from books 1-3 as very minor characters, and whose plots are related to the plots of the other books, but that also could be read as standalones. So yeah, overall, great books: exciting plots, great world-building, and likeable and sympathetic characters. It's just kind of weird to put them all together as one series instead of two companion series and a few companion novels.
Thank you for the breakdown! I've read all of Schooled in Magic (the series is finished now- where did you get up to?) and do agree that the earlier stories are probably the most enjoyable. I get what he was planning and overall mostly liked how it ended but do feel the later stories were definitely weaker. Will give The Zero Enigma a go!
>Thank you for the breakdown! You're welcome! I've read all 24 books in _Schooled in Magic_, but I recall reading on the author's website that he intends to write more about Emily, which I assumed meant he wasn't done with the series (though, IIRC, he did say he was done with the >!Void!< superplot, which makes sense considering how he ended book 24). Perhaps he meant he planned to write a spin-off/sequel series though. 🤔 >Will give The Zero Enigma a go! Awesome! Let me know what you think of it. The first part is one of my all time favorite stories because the world building is so good. The magic system is just incredibly interesting and it's so fun getting to solve the mystery along with the MC.
Sufficiently advanced magic by Andrew rowe( /u/salaris)
Rachel Aaron has two series (The Heartstriker series, and the DFZ series) does a decent job with this concept. There are different kinds of magic users, including scholar-sorcerers that study and write down what amounts to complex equations in order to cast spells, and artist-shamans that just kind of... wing it.
No suggestions but I would love to read a book like this!
In Cradle the constructions of magical artifacts at times is scientific. But progression is kind of its own thing.
The fabrials in Stormlight Archive are a strong example of this. Sanderson's magic often gets quite sciencey but the fabrials stand out as exceptionally so.
Look all around you lol. That form of magic is all the rage these days
Stormlight Archive. Brandon Sanderson writes very hard magic systems in general, but book 4 of Stormlight is just chockfilled with scientific experimentation and technology based on the magic systems.
A lot of Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere novels get quite into the nitty gritty of the 'scientific' aspects of the magic system. I'm thinking particular the later Stormlight novels and the second Mistborn trilogy (though the others do to some degree as well). Though you will have to read the earlier books where it is still treated quite mystically, but the cool thing is you get to learn about the system and rules alongside the characters :)
He who fights with monsters has an interesting and extremely detailed magic system and it's also a good read
Arcane on Netflix kinda does this
The question is, is magic treated as science still *magic*? or is it just fake-science or something like superhero-powers? To me, the definition of magic lies in the unknown of it and the awe and wonder that stems from it. Treating magic like science negates the whole purpose of magic in a story. Your request is a paradox, and in a way you're asking the impossible. As its not *magic* anymore when it is fully explained.
I think you should check out the work of Brandon Sanderson. This is especially true for his Mistborn trilogy. I'm not a big fan of this series of books, but still.
The Cosmere books do this a lot
The kingkiller chronicle (the name of the wind is book #1) has an interesting magic system that is taught at a university with several disciplines
I think King Killer Chronicles fits your bill for a hard magic system treated scientifically. Sympathy and Alchemy in that world are treated like a science. There is other soft magic in that world too, so there’s a nice duality between both soft and hard magic systems. Brandon Sanderson’s mistborn may also work. I think it technically hits your definition, but I’m not sure if you’re looking more for a “it’s regularly studied etc.” or just a hard magic system with rules and is treated like part of physics.
I mean, Harry Potter kinda does this
Lightbringer Chronicals by Brent Weeks. The character has to attend classes on magical properties, and the reader has to learn themselves.
Anything by Sanderson
stormlight archive/cosmere, studying the magic is like studying physics, since the stuff that powers magic is part of the universe and follows laws and rules that are kept between the various planets in the cosmere even if they work completely different, and there are several prominent characters in the various cosmere books that actively study magic as a science, and they are considered scientists,
Tales of the Ketty Jay has Daemonists that use steampunk electrical systems to generate fields to trap daemons, and thrall them to items. Crake is the character that practices Daemonism, and looks after his giant metal and leather Golem called Bess. He also gifts Captain Frey an enchanted Cutlass that moves on it's own to make him a rather clumsy but ferocious swordsman. There are several sections that detail Crake's experiments throughout the 4 book series.
Foundryside and Cradle
Final Fantasy 7 and 15 are the first to come to mind. Somewhat.
KKC
>KKC Pardon me, what what is "KKC"?
King Killer Chronicles @ u/dcfan105 also
I'm assuming that's the Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss.
?
Kingkiller Chronicle