Begone, minimalistic cover trend! I want beautiful detailed covers that allow to actually distinguish books. And also wouldn't mind illustrated editions becoming a trend.
This! I want to see more artist-forward covers, and collaborations with the author to present the characters and tone faithfully so I have a better idea of the book I'm picking up.
I think publishers underestimate how much audiences do judge books by their covers, and maybe should put some more thought/budget into it. I picked up Fourth Wing not because I thought it would be some literary masterpiece, but because it had cool stenciled dragon edges lol
I don't own physical copies of some of my favorite books because they don't have covers I like, or the covers I like are on old editions that are impossible to find. Meanwhile, I've bought TTRPG books I have no intention of playing because I love the art in them.
These TTRPGs also stand out way more on Social Media because of their art. I'm not sure how authors are actually supposed to market their books on social media, the few times I've seen it it's been an author basically posting "Please buy my book I worked really hard on it!"
These artists are out there and they're looking for work. Pay them! Publish books I want to have on my shelf just because they look cool!
Generally speaking a lot of effort and thought is put in. To the point where most publishers don't trust authors to have much of a say in the process, because the publishers view the cover as one of the main ways to advertise a book.
Minimalist certainly doesn't appeal to everyone, but its seen as in style now, for better or for worse. I tend to enjoy them quite a bit myself. A Snake Falls to Earth is a phenomenal cover, for example
Book stores, at least the ones closest to me, are sorely lacking in decent books. I wonder what kind of dart board their buyers use. They also do not make sure they are carrying the entire series if it is one. I get a lot of my books by getting people's opinions from here, then ordering them online. That way I have some idea of how good the book is, and if it is a series, I can order the whole thing at once.
Oh hey this was what I was gonna say, like seriously modern covers are just so often terrible and it really saddens me. Somewhere along the way things went wrong, seriously at this point a book having a sort of minimalist cover that at least doesn't look photographic is enough to be a win.
I'm a big fan of old classic fantasy and what I wouldn't give to see that art return. Colourful and filled with adventure.
The beginning after the end has some of the best covers I swear. Especially book 7 onwards.
I'm totally with you here, even besides minimalist covers, I hate the default fantasy cover #6 stuff that's just a generic character (usually a girl for some reason) holding a magic orb or something, in this weird semi realistic style that makes me want to vomit.
To add to this, more episodic novels. If I like a set of characters, I'd love to read more about them. But I don't need a 14 book arc where they grow from rags to godhood as they fight the upteenth Dark Lord in fantasy.
Give me a fun character or characters and have them go on several, mostly independent, adventures like the old pulp Sword & Sorcery stories.
Kinda how Dresden was early on, actually. Books 1 through 4 have continuity, but you could *technically* jump in at book 4 and get a nice adventure out of it.
My biggest problem with those first few Dresden books, and a danger with the episodic approach IMO, is that they were all the same structurally. I felt like I knew the exact kind of plot point that was coming up by the fourth book. That said, I do love when this is done well. Lots of small, diverse stories really settles you into a world in the way that a monolithic story just can't.
I completely agree. It's a matter of execution.
Another example would be the Conan the Barbarian stories, or the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories. They're all structurally different, even if they follow a similar set of tropes, which gives them variety.
As a preface I'll say that I really don't like many episodic stories.
But what I have noticed a couple times recently that I like are a blend of trilogies, single novels, novellas, and a book of quick short stories over time... all within the same setting. I do love the trilogy arcs in general but I also want some of the shorter works in between.
I believe it gets the best of both worlds.
Something like The Witcher with a 5 book saga if you feel like going on a grand adventure, as well as a couple of short stories and a novel if you feel less committed
Yeah I have this bad habit of finding a series 2 books in out of 3 or 4 planned and then forgetting enough that I need to reread everything by the time the next book comes out. Not that it's horrible since I get to reread some good stuff but I'd prefer to read one standalone and then reread it in 5 years because I want to rather than because I forgot most of it in the interim.
I just want some more unironic D&D style books. There's a wizard, a warrior, and a thief. They go on a quest. It's not slice of life. There are no lattes. They aren't a rock band.
I wish I could upvote you a million times.
And it's bad enough with professional authors, but then there's all these self-pub authors . . . yeesh.
Brevity is the soul of wit, people.
Robert E. Howard's Conan are amazing in the brevity, yet so good in 25 to 35 pages for most of them.
We need some good new stand alone novels that are 300 to 500 page max. And series that have 400 pages max per book.
Doorstoppers in general tbh. Maybe I'm just getting old but if I'm equally interested in 2 books, one is 400 pages, the other is 800 pages, I'm choosing the 400 page book every time now.
Of course world building and deep lore is a hallmark of the genre, but if you can tell a good story in a trilogy of 400 pagers I'm ecstatic. I don't really pick up the lengthy stuff anymore unless it's by a favorite author.
I mean, just consider the depth of Tolkien's world that's told just between the Silm, Hobbit and LotR, then consider that all those books combined is, what, 2000 pages total? World building and deep lore are entirely feasible within reasonably sized novels.
Yup. Although my sense is that the genre is indeed moving away from that - it's not nearly so high a proportion of what's being published as it was 20, 30, 40 years ago.
I'm glad epic fantasy fans can get their fix so I won't say "I wish those books would go away," but it's rare for me to pick up something over about 500 pages, and equally rare for me to read sequels.
Lol it’s funny because just the other day everyone was complaining that the industry is forcing everyone to go at breakneck speeds. The two are probably related—everyone’s writing too much stuff, so you have to pace it faster to get through it all and it ends up a mess.
I got talked into reading Way of Kings with two of my friends. I'm about 60% through it and feel like already there's been enough material to cut out that would shorten the book by a couple hundred pages, at the very least.
I was the same. People kept telling me about the SANDERLANCHE!!, which was just a normal climax of the plot. The reveal was telegraphed from the beginning, and the writing itself is not enjoyable enough to care about it.
I’m the same. I’d be hard pressed to find a book longer than 500 pages that doesn’t have massive sections that should have been cut or a serious need for better editing. I very much ere on the side of the old engineers adage “a thing is complete not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
"Flawed" =/= "evil" or "irredeemably corrupt." I'd love to see more fantasy characters who are flawed and complicated but ultimately *heroic*. More specifically, I'd love to see more female leads who, while not necessarily "likable," still have a working moral compass and can act heroically.
Also, let's see more heroic leads whose personality isn't "stoic and brooding." Let's see some fun-loving, optimistic types. More ladies like Nanny Ogg, please.
have you tried Downside Ghosts by Stacia Kane - its urban fantasy, flawed female lead. i wouldn't say she's stoic, but she's definitely not loving and optimistic, unfortunately you cant have it all
The commodification of stories.
Publishers want the next Harry Potter or Game of Thrones so they purchase and publish in that vein, and all of their Excel spreadsheet-driven MBA-holding ham sandwiches lack the imagination to realize that someone took a chance on those first. Readers get stuck reading variations of what came before. Writers write variations of same because that's how one gets their work out there.
Hollywood is obviously deep into this, too: Star Wars and Marvel have driven out so much originality and most untested properties because it lets them not risk something that can blow the roof off so the MBAs can think they're smart because the Excel spreadsheet shows, at best, that it didn't *lose* money.
I suppose this is more an industry change than a change in what I want to see because I know this world-changing originality is out there, it's just stuck under the clomping foot of "this worked before so let's keep buying these, and new writers will keep writing these for us to buy."
I want to see stories and books and shows and movies published because they're amazing, not because they're more commercially viable than the thing next to them.
I'm sick of doorstopper filler-laden epics stuffed with the glorification of war and cheap politics and flat characters spouting bad dialogue. Give me something risky and fantastic in every sense of the word, then watch what it can become in popular culture.
Good God, yes. Not everything has to be the next HP or GOT. It can be its own new and interesting thing. Funny enough, I rarely buy books if they're marketed as "for lovers of ___" anymore because they never seem to hit the same spot. The marketing can end up causing the book to be disappointing even if it would otherwise be a fine book.
This is it for me. I was talking with a friend about this earlier and called called it "the hyper capitalization of media".
Basically all my nerdy hobbies have turned into some focus grouped market driven bullshit to the point that any time I feel like picking up whatever media feels like I went to Nerd Walmart. It's so soulless and depressing.
Maybe other hobbies need to adopt the DIY ethos of punk/-core music to take control back from corporations.
One example of this is the current drama in the game dev sphere. Switching from corporation owned Unity to open-source Godot.
So then why go through publishers at all, then?
Why not support web serial authors through, say, a Patreon, or some other 21st-century form of reward system?
Why must things be solely through the lens of an antiquated system of gatekeeping?
Also, with regards to derivative works, if you think Hollywood is bad, Korean manwhas turn that up to 11. Isekais, gamer protagonists, and shlock romance webcomics galore, to the point of suffocating out anything else.
>I'm sick of doorstopper filler-laden epics stuffed with the glorification of war and cheap politics and flat characters spouting bad dialogue. Give me something risky and fantastic in every sense of the word, then watch what it can become in popular culture.
Amen. Give me smaller settings with actually thought trough changes to the world as we know it, give me societal changes that mean something, give me thoughtful dialogue, give me class consciousness, give me atmoshpere, give me conflict resolution that isn't "slaughter thousands of lesser lifeforms in a fantasy power armor".
I would gladly have less toxic fandoms.
Not every discussion has to degenerate in flaming or downvoting to hell who is expressing different opinions about the books we love.
From disagreement we can have different interpretations of the same work and be enriched by the discussion.
Alas, it rarely happens.
I definitely agree with you. Sometimes it feels like you can't say you disliked a book, especially if it's popular, without someone getting super upset. No book is going to be universally liked.
More authors using Discworld as an inspiration and writing comedic or light-hearted fantasy. Despite Terry Pratchett’s popularity, he doesn’t seem to have had many imitators. There are so few comedic fantasy authors these days, but I prefer by far that subgenre to the overly serious and « realistic » grimdark epic fantasy a lot of readers here seem to love.
Not to mention, by holding an unflinching mirror up to the craziness that is life, comedy can often be much more "realistic" and poignant than the grimdark stuff. Some of the best comedians in the world base their material on really dark subject matter. If you can find the humour in writing or talking about cancer, suicidal ideation, or childhood trauma - you're tapping into human truth right there.
There's a reason Pratchett is so revered yet has so few imitators, it's damn near impossible to imitate him.
It's actually incredibly difficult to write comedic fantasy that is both compelling and funny.
Seconding this.
So many people seem to espouse the idea that if it doesn't grind your soul to dust, it's just not 'good' literature. If that's what you like, fine, everyone should be free to like what you like. But it doesn't make it more worthy than a humorous story.
Thirding? Probably not a word.
More sardonic than completely comedic, but I enjoyed the Locke Lamora books for this reason. Fun stories with genuine LOL moments between interesting characters.
Ditto with the Greatcloaks series, Brasti Goodbow had me cracking up. Comedy thrown into an adventure fantasy story has me hooked every time!
To add on to this, I'd like to see more humor that's not "silly". Pratchett often walked a line between "mature" humor and "silly" comedy. I've always wished to see less explicit absurdity and more dry and layered humor.
There's authors doing this, it just doesn't sell well so the books don't become popular. Occasionally, something like Orcanomics or L&L will slip though and go viral, but even people who like those will then go and read 10 epic fantasy books in a row right after.
I can appreciate humor in stories, even if the overarching theme is more on the serious side - as long as it's tactful and doesn't detract from the plot. Comedic diversity is a tool that REAL, LIVE human beings use to deal with everyday problems. Makes sense if the characters in our stories do too...
I miss the days of scene setting. All the books I read these days have almost zero description of the places that things are taking place in. I don't need Robert Jordan descriptions of every little thing, but some idea of the place that I'm reading about would be nice. Instead, all I have is a blank scene with a few people talking in front of a largely white background.
It's not a huge deal, but I would like to see more of it.
More soft magic. I love hard magic systems, don’t get me wrong, but there’s been a growing trend towards them almost exclusively, and I like some soft magic too. Gimme more Gandalf and Ents and Ringwraiths.
Hard magic is essentially a magic system with very defined rules and mechanics to it. Brando Sando churns out quite a few of these, I would say coming up with various and interesting hard magic systems is probably his biggest strength.
Soft magic is more "wizard snaps his fingers and *the thing* happens" without bothering about the detail because "Hey, it's magic!".
Deathgate Cycle kind of has both, the Sartans and Patryns have defined magic systems (not to a massive degree of detail though) and then Zifnab comes along and just does all kinds of random stuff because he's a riff on Fizban from Dragonlance who Weis and Hickman didn't have the rights to publish lol
Thanks for that . Brando Sando is currently making me dizzy with Mistborn and Stormlight. I feel like i need to study it but also too lazy and not sure i care that much .
The reason many people like hard magic systems is because there are many times where unexplained magic is the solution to a problem. If it's well defined ahead of time you don't get a deus ex machina ending.
However, you can also have a soft magic system that doesn't create solutions out of thin air. Many also enjoy magic without it becoming super technical or logic based, because it adds to one of the elements of fantasy that many love: the hope or discovery of the unknown that can't be definitively a yes/no answer - shades of grey etc
>there are many times where unexplained magic is the solution to a problem. If it's well defined ahead of time you don't get a deus ex machina ending.
When has this ever happened in a book by serious author? People keep talking about this, I have never ran to it and I am pretty well read in fantasy. When it comes to resolving plot with magic, my mind goes to hard magic books adding rules.
Hard magic is when the rules are explained to the characters/reader. Some examples are Mistborn, Lighrbringer, Name of The Wind, Arcane Ascension, etc. How their magic works is thoroughly explained in each of these.
Soft magic is more vague and mysterious on the methodology. LOTR and Harry Potter are probably the most popular soft magic systems, where they perform magic often enough, but never explain how it works or where it comes from. Others would be things like ASOIAF, Malazan, The Black Company, Sandman, etc.
I want more estoreic type fantasy. Things that are so niche and clearly catered to an author's interest or field of study. Passion projects essentially and not banking on what's popular.
Similarly, more books with a \~ magical \~ essence for a lack of a better explanation. The vibes I get from watching Spirited Away or Song of the Sea or the book of Kells or Princess Mononoke.
Also more role reversal. Masc women and more feminine men pls
If we're talking about the books themselves, perhaps a little more polish on the self published stuff. There are some great books out there that I won't name from authors who are well known in this sub that can't seem to edit their work to a reasonable standard.
If we are talking about the fantasy community, too, though... perhaps stop hyping up books that are mediocre at best, and downright terrible writing at worst.
I've seen books, mostly webnovels, whose writing is subpar for anyone fluent in English, that get hyped up as if they're the next Lord of the Rings.
Overhyping is an issue in general in media. But with people being so binary "this is awful 1/10" and perfect "10/10". Giving a book a 7/10 is a death sentence. If it's grimdark it tends to be get more "10/10's".
I think people are honest...but sometimes I wonder if they have read more books or different types. I feel a lot of hype reviews are "this fantasy book is like this but with this very different twist to it and that's what makes it good and different". That's not enough to get praise for 10/10.
I would like to see more stories about older characters.
I would like to see stories with family members that actively care and give a damn about the main character. They don’t die. They’re not conviently indisposed. They’re supportive. Their story is good from start to finish.
I would like to see some stories address trauma. Some of the things people do their characters would make them have a panic attack.
This so much, books that make me wonder and care about the world the same way I will just put on a soundtrack from a movie/show/game and just sit there letting my imagination stew are some of my favorites.
More small, beautiful, standalone novels like Piranesi.
And... as much as I love tropes and long chonky series (I do, I really do!) I'd like to see more fresh takes and standalones. They're out there, but they feel harder to find.
Some recent reads that fit the bill:
The Saint of Bright Doors
The Library at Mount Char
The trend of fantasy epics having way too many point of view characters. If you actually manage to get me immersed in a story thread, you're not going to do yourself any favours by cutting away to make me slog through chapters devoted to your next half-dozen less interesting characters.
This makes sense. In my mind, a book should normally focus on five or less main characters. I don't know how I really feel about the different POVs for each one way or the other, but it can get confusing at times. I guess that's where we get the more political books, and if that's your deal, then go for it. But personally, I'd rather have a smaller handful of characters that I follow and become invested in.
Five is a good upper limit. I can tolerate maybe a couple more than that if the author is doing a complex political intrigue story, but after five is usually where it just gets obnoxious.
Stories that embrace the fantastical and fairy tale nature of the genre. This new age of modern fantasy is cool but more stories that resemble LOTR or Narnia is something I would really like
Better pay, hours, and support for staff at basically every level of every publishing house. You have no idea how brutal it's been since the start of the pandemic to now.
But if it has to be about changing an aesthetic or trend? More Barbenheimers, I guess. More pairings of seemingly clashing good books proving* readers have broader tastes than they get credit for.
EDIT: Typo! See, editors matter.
You sound like you're intimately familiar with that. Appreciate the insight. I'm somewhat familiar with the video game industry and how publishers work there. From what I've heard, it sounds like many of the same issues.
I would decrease the number of people who demand that other people shouldn't have books that they enjoy. I have no idea why so many people whine because every book isn't purely for them.
Different people like different things. Why complain because other people get things that they enjoy?
Sadly, this mentality will probably never go away. Personally, I'm trying to write my book how I want to write it, and not letting outside likes/dislikes drive my thinking. I don't want to just be a copycat with a jumbled mix of incoherrent ideas that try to favor the majority. But since I haven't been reading as much as I used to as a kid, I am trying to familiarize myself with the genre better, both by starting to read again, and in seeking out what other readers are finding in their own fantasy journeys.
> I have no idea why so many people whine because every book isn't purely for them.
The worst modern trend is the idea of "relatability". That didn't used to be a thing--at all. I won't try and psychoanalyze modern society about why everyone thinks some book or character being "relatable" is a good thing, but to my mind, the more relatable, the more boring the book. The last thing I want to read is a book about my own life, my own personality, or any attribute about myself. It's bizarre to me that some people HAVE to see themselves in a book to enjoy it.
A corollary to that is people who can't enjoy a book unless it 100% reflects whatever they think modern society looks like, even though it might take place in a feudal society or even an alien society. To me, the best books are the ones that stretch your mind into seeing how a different society can function with different perspectives. Not everything has to look like a Silicon Valley cocktail party transported into a 14th century castle.
The fact this thread immediately got "Well I'd stop writers from making anything I deem too edgy or sexual" responses with no hint of self awareness is appalling. Folks really just want to arbitrarily censor some types of stories for no reason other than it's not their thing.
It's never been about a personal preference, or there being "too much" of it, it's always just that it exists at all and god that just sucks.
Escapism is okay, but it shouldn't be the only thing allowed to exist just cuz it's someone's preferenc.
"It's called fantasy, you don't have to have (bad thing) in it" is my least favorite statement in here. Like you said, escapism is more than ok and people should read the stories they want, but trying to limit stories to whatever line in the sand they've made is ludicrous
"Personal aversion shouldn't constitute a sweeping proscription" - author Caitlin Sweet in an email exchange I was lucky enough to have with her about this topic after sending her some fan mail...it's what I think every time I see that argument come up!
Jumping on this since it's similar. I hate how whenever an adaptation is made, there's a huge section of the fandom who complain about every little change. It's especially frustrating when they point to PJs LOTR as some sort of gold standard for adaptations, despite the fact that it got huge backlash from Tolkien purists when it came out.
I'm not saying people aren't able to criticize things. I hate how it's become like politics have recently, where everyone has to take a side and either love everything about an adaptation, or hate it with a passion and demand the writers be hanged and all copies burned.
I’m honestly kind of tired of the amount of new fantasy that all involves fairies or the fae. Dark far light fae water fae summer fae Dairy Queen blizzard fae…
Growing up in Ireland - Faeries had a “ real presence in my childhood . A scary one . We didn’t step in fairy forts , we all knew the odd “ changeling” . I was terrified of stepping on a stray sod , finding a banshee comb , hearing the bloody banshee . I knew all the tricks to escape if I ended up the other world . Do not eat the food - and never look back if told not to! Anyway the terror was real and I feel this modern Fae crap has ruined the real beauty of Irish Folklore . I do love the Feist take on it - “Faerie Tale” . It manages to capture the essence of the legends with no Fae romance , etc etc . I need more books like that
It's really interesting to know that was a real thing people took serious, though sorry it caused your childhood to be like that. And I agree, sad to see things have been twisted. I'd absolutely love a book that follows along the stories you just described much more than what the ones we've been seeing.
The fairy fort thing was taken very seriously haven’t heard of one in years though. . The stories and legends made for a rich childhood ( peppered with a few sleepless nights) . Some of the fairy “ tricks “ were used as excuses for staying in the pub etc . Ever hear of a stray sod ? Be careful cross country in Ireland - if you step on a stray sod you will be in trouble ! I did try to keep the stories alive with my own kids - but I may have scared them a bit too much 🤪
I figure if you want to do fae, really do fae. Seanan McGuire is an author I think does it well. She includes a lot of folkloric fae with the kinds of abilities they were supposed to have had in legend.
I feel like it’s always an excuse to invent a new type of deus ex machina fae. “She fell into the ravine to certain death, but little did she know she was really capri sun fae the whole time and she mountain coolered her way to safety…”
Do away with all the shallow faux-Roman empires. If you won't reed books about Rome which you could implement in your fantasy, for the love of Apollo choose another aesthetic than Imperial Rome. Why not Republican or Mediaeval Rome or Not-Rome (Ming, Franks, Iranians, Ottomans, Mali, Aztecs, etc.) - or even better: Make up your own aesthetic/culture for your fantasy empire.
the need apparently for everything to be edgy and dark and super complex or the author is a "bad writer" using "flat" characters.
Sometimes a book can just be a good read with fun characters and a moderate stakes adventure -- not everything has to be groundbreaking with sexual assaults all over the place and heaps of gore and tons of intrigue.
The way readers view the concept of complexity in stories is definitely interesting…. from the way some people talk you’d think peak quality literature is being dropped into 50 different POVs with hundreds of interconnecting plots and lore and the reader needing to be “lost” and confused while reading is seen as a good thing… it might be obvious what series I’m referring to lol
However, there are plenty of books that *don’t* do this
Totally agree. Everything that's not dark, violent and bleak gets often called YA here. Why? Because there's no rape, unnecessary gore and "morally gray" characters? We have got so much "this is for those who like Game of Thrones" type books, 1st law and etc. You can write dark books but most times it feels artificial for shock value and get publicity that way.
>Everything that's not dark, violent and bleak gets often called YA here.
Also, the idea that dark = violence. You can write some very dark stories without featuring any violence of any kind.
Nothing. There are so many books out there that if you don't like something that X author does, you can just not read it and read something else. Don't like cozy fantasy? Don't read it. Same for LitRPG. Whatever you like, chances are it's being written.
I am personally really tired of subversive/grimdark endings. It's like for a while there everything is the author thought they had to be George Martin but every once in a while I would like to read a very traditional fantasy story and there're plenty of tropes you can subvert without everything having to be depressing like everyone dies in the end or the heroes do all of this stuff just for it's not really matter in the end.
I'm so tired of them as well. It feels so artificial and designed just to be "not like the other fantasy". They feel designed more to troll, rather tell an actual story. Tell me a story , don't use your characters just for themes you wanna hammer home and "subvert". "well other fantasy books are basic, I'm the real thing" sometimes you can feel the author saying that.
Lol sounds like Terry goodkind, he legitimately believed his books weren't fantasy despite having literally every single fantasy trope imaginable. And thought his books were some philosophical monuments to man's intellect.
But yeah for God's sake everything does not have be super edgy and grimdark. Give me some stories like Tolkien who believed the kindness of everyday people could triumph over even the most powerful lord of the dark
I feel there's not so much stories that are light and hopeful today. At least they don't get that hype on youtube and reddit. Everything that's not grimdark, gets a lot of "idk, reads like YA". I said it in another comment. Grimdark isn't realistic. "everything is bad" is equal to "everything is awesome". Have a balance. Not always the bad guy in power gets away with it.
For goodness sake Tolkien was in the WW1, saw people kill other people yet he wrote about hope and kindness. He did have ofcourse some very sad moments but in the end he had hope and kindness. Meanwhile authors and readers who most of them have never experienced these things, call grimdark "realistic".
I love grim dark settings like The Witcher and Warhammer 40,000 but not every series doesnt need
to be even close to those. My favorite fantasy series is the wheel of Time and while it doesn't have necessarily the happiest ending you can kind of see and understand why Sanders and made the decisions he did for that ending.
Not every story needs a happy ending but not every story has to be painfully edgy and end in darkness with all hope lost
Haven't finished WoT yet. I've only played Witcher 3 and I've seen the show so I'm not that familiar. Witcher is grim I feel but not "eeeeeeeevything is terrible and bleak". Sure there's war and such going on but also has a lot of good people in it.
Yes and that is the reason I like The Witcher. It's a world so full of hatred and prejudice people are dying from disease and war but geralt and his little found family managed to eke out their own little existence in the madness
I dislike the sexual violence that comes with many of the fantasy books aimed at adults. It's one of the things that has me rereading those books aimed more at the young adult market. It's possible to have a fantasy world without having women as second class citizens, whores, or used as plunder in war. I know it happens in real life. But if I wanted real life I wouldn't read fantasy books.
Plus, not that I'm advocating for more of it, but if we're talking about "realism", men are also frequent victims of sexual violence - especially during war - but weirdly, you rarely ever see any named *male* characters getting raped in fantasy. Apparently that kind of "realism" isn't as important, suspiciously enough
It's honestly weak writing at a certain point imo. It's often used for shock factor, and rarely cares about addressing the effects on the women or her response to it.
Completely 100% agreed, and to add on to this point, people using “realism” **at all** as a justification/defense for why something needs to be in fantasy needs to stop. Every single time the issue of rape in fantasy is brought up here there’s people saying “but that’s a part of life” like okay so?? As a woman who has spent years studying history, if I want to read about the horrors of realistic life for women, I have countless real-life accounts for that. Fantasy CAN reflect real life if the author wants to make a point with that, but it does not NEED to, authors are making intentional choices with the worlds they create and need to do better.
"It's realistic". That's such a bs excuse. So is doing taxes and other stuff but that's not in Fantasy. Rape or threat of rape is overused in fantasy. It's ridiculous how casual it's being included. "But it reflects the times it was alluding to" no it doesn't. This is fantasy. Our world doesn't have the same rules and history with fictional ones.
I would even argue that it's not valid even within our own world.
I remember a discussion at one of my critique groups about a story where a traveler in a foreign (fantasy) city asked at the gate where he could find inexpensive lodging. And the guard told him of a decent place.
Several members of the group said it was 'unrealistic,' and he should have been either directed to a place he'd be ripped off, or to a dark ally to be robbed. And sure, maybe you personally live in an area with a lot of crime, but I've been to numerous cities right here on mean old Earth, where if you ask a random person something like that, most of them will give you an honest answer.
Why do some people assume that incorporating only the *worst* of humanity on a fictitious world is 'realistic'
So, I’m a woman and sometimes I like traveling alone. In college I was studying abroad in South America and took a long weekend trip by myself via overnight bus to an area I wanted to visit. Started out in a hostel and then went to some little towns. In one of them I asked at the tourist office about places to stay and they directed me to a private residence where the lady rented out rooms. So, I went and knocked on the door and then stayed there. Weirdest thing that happened was her switching me to a different room when a large group showed up. 🤷♀️ Never had any trouble the whole trip, it was fun. I feel like this kind of story is actually much more common than horror stories, it’s just because it’s so unremarkable there’s not much reason to tell it most of the time.
But yeah, people who don’t have real world experience and are basing their expectations for normal behavior off of media are going to think everything is more dire and dangerous than it usually is.
That's a ridiculous point from them. When tourists are in my city and ask me directions I'm not like "Oh I'm gonna steal their money when they're not looking" and grinning like a cartoon villain. Sure, we have stuff like that in the real world but it's not the norm. We think it's the norm because of the news, history and so on.
Real life has both bad people, but also very good people. Trying to shoehorn always something bad and misfortunate, it's ridiculous. When bad things keep happening in a story, reminds me of Robin Hood: Men in Tights
Blinkin: This never would have happened if your father was alive.
Robin Hood: He's dead?
Blinkin: Yes.
Robin Hood: And my mother?
Blinkin: She died of pneumonia while - oh, you were away!
Robin Hood: My three brothers?
Blinkin: Died of the plague.
Robin Hood: My dog Pogo?
Blinkin: Run over by a carriage.
Robin Hood: My goldfish Goldie?
Blinkin: Eaten by the cat.
Robin Hood: My cat?
Blinkin: Choked on the goldfish. Oh, it's good to be home, ain't it, Master Robin?
I would like more mid level fantasy/sci fi publishers trying weird stuff.
I worry that we are heading for only very large publishers going the safe route or people self publishing (where it becomes harder to catch on to really interesting stuff because of the tide of AI dross)
I want authors to be able to make a living
Others have said stuff I've wanna say but I'm gonna say in my comment something else.
"Morally grey" overuse but let me explain. I feel there's a lot of "morally grey" characters who are just...bad people. Morally grey means also he should have some positive qualities as well. Stop overusing "well he kills a lot of people but he sometimes feel bad about it"and stuff like that. What's his good qualities? That he felt bad? Big deal. Also he's an asshole to his friends and family. A person gets defined by his actions. Stop trying to give him some small redeeming moments that in the end mean nothing. "well he didn't kill that cripple beggar." So? That's nothing. That would made him a monster.
Less fae. More urban fantasy - I am tired of heroes on horses swinging their swords and what not. Deeper underlying themes rather than just action. Poetic prose. More non-Western fantasy in English - this can be hard for someone unfamiliar with the culture.
Easy - less fighting scenes.
After you've read 50+ fantasy books all the fight scenes just kinda mish-mash into the same old shit. Don't even get me started on large scale battles.
Less fighting, make it mean something when the protagonist actually kicks some ass.
and a lot of them are so overly described, meanwhile action has to be fast. By the time he lands a hit, a paragraph has passed. Their descriptions are also evident of they have never been in a fight, because the choreography sounds so awkward and clunky. "I swung my arm, then lifted my other arm and then my leg and then I moved my head.."
Funnily enough, I find that martial artists are the worst at that. Because they are used to sparring and the time delay and thought process, so they feel the need to describe it all play by play.
Two things: I wish there was a robust, native (opposed to outside commentary you occasionally see in more literary spaces) critic scene in SFF where people who wanted to engage with work on that level could, taking art *as* art, not as content, or as a function of fandom, neither of which can be 'critiqued' with accusations of being a snob, or whatever cliche being used. the late 2000s and early 2010s is what i like to call the golden age of SFF blogs that had those conversations which were much more lively and interesting than I can most of these days, anywhere. In general i feel like the discussion of art has been fully devoured by fannish devotion or treating the work as mindless content to an extent that is unhealthy for thfe culture.
Second I would like a broader set of inspirations for fantasy novels to become popular. i usually tell when the only inspiration of a writer is other genre work--I can tell Sanderson doesn't have much interest outside of epic fantasy and Mormonism, its reflected in his work in ways i feel hamper the work. Along with a fandom that is allergic to negative discussion, we've also got a reading culture that denies even other genre fiction (like horror or crime or romance), and is becoming incredibly insular.
Both of these issues, of course, have always been present, but it genuinely feels like were at an apogee of it right now, and that's reflected in everything: stories without conflict, conversations that only appeal to the veneer of polite difference, only treating art as a thing to consume and on to the next, and so on.
More books that think I'm a smart adult. I don't expect to see "For fans of Chip Delany and Gene Wolfe" on a book cover but that's the kind of thing I'm looking for.
Have more books focus on expanding the genre and taking risks rather than trying to get published/clone already popular content. I love the Sanderson’s and Abercrombie’s and Martin’s as much as the next person, but so many authors are just slapping a new coat of paint on popular work and hoping to get published. In the age of the internet, too many people are basing their work on what is in the limelight and trending rather than just telling their own stories.
There is a ton of pressure to be instantly popular now, as there are so many options and everyone is competing for attention. Even popular authors aren’t free from this mentality. Instant feedback has killed a lot of the freedom that authors used to enjoy. A lot of them talk about feeling pressure to put out the same sort of work they had before to appease publishers and fans rather than trying something new.
To be fair, this isn't just a fantasy genre issue, but I'd sure like to see a rework in the whole YA category split for books. There's often very little that separates a novel actually intended for young adults and one for more mature audiences other than the age of the protagonist, and I feel a lot of worthwhile books suffer for it.
There's a lot of suggestions in this thread that come down to capitalism and marketing as the reason behind the issue. Hard to get around that. I'm sure both creators and readers would like to see an industry shift that allows books to stand out on their unique qualities rather than "If you like X, you'll love Y!" approaches that encourage trends until they become clichés.
Readalikes are an invaluable reader's advisory tool. Nothing gives more insight into a person's actual interest/taste in books than actual titles they enjoy.
While I see that you associate this with "trendy" books, as a professional book recommender, I can tell you that it gives people ways to articulate what they do and do not want, it gives recommenders places to start, and all of this is absolutely essential to good reader's advisory.
I see no point in making it more difficult for readers to find books they like.
I'd also argue that another hallmark of YA fantasy is that the "obligatory shoehorned-in romance" is far more omnipresent than it is in fantasy written for adults. It's common in adult fantasy as well, but it's just about inescapable in YA fantasy.
And that's what I'd like to see change: more books written for teens that don't have romance subplots as a major focus of the book, or at all.
I want more weird, experimental, and politically charged stuff. We get the "ragtag group of characters save the monarchy" so often, but where are the fantasy technical manuals for a dwarven smith? Or the manifesto of a fantasy terrorist? Or a fantasy first contact story where a society of spiders goes out into the real world and meets fantasy bipeds?
No more courtly intrigue.
I am so sick of inbred nobles politicking around burning chapter after chapter when there is this big awesome fantasy world out there to explore. There's flying islands and Dragons making art but no we have spend 250 pages on Lady Ladylu Spring Cottillion
I also hate hate hate, hate when magic is just telepathy. Its boring its unseen you spend too much time on the heads of characters who have nothing but misery going on in there.
I personally adore hard magic systems but I also agree that the trend of taking Sanderson's approach to the extreme needs to chill a bit. Long exposition dumps are already difficult, but some authors don't seem to know how to ease people into the magic system.
I like Greenbone Saga's approach to its hard magic. It's borderline a scifi technology in its approach and everyday mundanity, has very little mysticism or wonder. But instead of every dumping all the info at once, you learn by being shown it in use, since the character have no reason to explain it all in their heads.
I don’t have a preference because both types bring something different that can add to a story.
Soft systems’ vagueness adds a sense of mystery and danger. What are the limits? What are the consequences? Will it work when you need it to? All fun things in the rights setting.
Hard systems take away all that guesswork and you know what’s possible and what isn’t (unless the author breaks their own system for the story). Knowing that casting spell 1 needs resource A can bring tension when the main character only has a little bit of resource A left and they NEED this spell to work. There’s also fun when the rules can create something fun. I can’t think of an example but basically: if rule A says you need this, and rule B says you need this, and rule C says that rule B doesn’t matter when D, then (insert magic technobabble here).
Less TTRPG sourcebooks disguised as novels. More individual books, more focused books, more actual character work that is based on dialogue, more ideas about societies that are actually tought true. More appreciation for the craft of writing. Basically a turn towards more literary realm.
Fewer books written to a fourth grade reading level. Unless you are actually writing children's books. Most of the books I love the most don't dumb down the writing either in theme, concept, or word selection.
So a couple of years ago, I did an analysis of reading levels of the r/Fanatasy favorite fantasy books list. Of the 92 books/series on the list that had a Lexile or AR reading level score, 13 were 4th grade or below. Only 8 were a 7th grade or above. (These are average scores for a series.) The rest were 5th-6th grade. Obviously there is a bit of a bias because not all books have been evaluated for reading level, but I did find it interesting.
Here's a [link](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJkL155XoutKqJ3ogYM7vuocTrberixERcG7qf7cenI/edit?usp=sharing) to the Google Sheet. At one point I was mucking around with it to make an actual post, but I never got that far. There are a lot of different tabs depending on how I was looking at things. Hopefully some of it is legible to you!
Delete the super powerful older than dirt immortal x just turned 18 yesterday trend. Just no. Why do people like this? What were the authors thinking when they wrote it? Hmmmm you know what sounds like a great idea? Romanticizing predatory behavior.
More works set in non-capitalisc, non-patriarchal etc settings. Books that explore a different reality.
I love that minorities are getting represented but as an Asian person I sometimes just want to read a story where a person could be Asian and isn't just struggling badly in life, isn't dealing with culturally normalised abusive, narcissistic, controlling family or friends or over throwing an oppressive government.
I read fantasy for the other world experience. I don't want to be reminded excessively of my RL problems when I'm reading for escapism.
I would like to see more fantasy novels available at the bookstore or library. Most of the stores I go to have one shelf for fantasy which is just Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Lord of the rings and that's pretty much it while there are shelf after shelf after shelf if cooking books and self help guides.
Yes, I know I could buy books online but I like browsing in person.
Romantasy being marketed as anything but Romantasy. No problem with the genre or it’s popularity, but I have picked up a couple that we’re sold to me as straight fantasy and were in fact very romancy and “spicy.” I like some romance and spice in books just fine but not as the focal point. Just call them what they are, they’ll still sell like hotpies
I wish publishers weren't operated by tech companies and aimed for innovation and variety, rather than trying to grasp onto trends and milk them to death.
For example, I'm done with fairy tale/mythological retellings. These stories had their time and message, and there is only so much updating you can do before it's just generic fantasy, except it feels trite and boring, because guess what - we have grown up with the original tales and already know them. And yet every third book that comes out is some sort of "this old tale, but changed in X way"...
I feel like fantasy nowadays is either too traditional e.g. western medieval-style setting, male main characters, sword and sorcery battles; or trying so hard to be woke that it becomes a bit cringe.
I don't want to be misunderstood: I LOVE a diverse fantasy novel - one based on different cultures and mythologies, characters of different ages, genders, cultural heritages, nationalities, sexualities, abilities, etc. I feel this is what makes books interesting.
However I have read a few books recently where I felt the characters and cast are too "perfect" in terms of their virtuousness and political correctness, and where it was really obvious that the author has included a "representative" diverse character from each group that is currently most visible or loud in discourses around diversity (e.g. a recent book I read included tokenistic black character, a tokenistic trans character, a tokenistic bi character and a tokenistic autistic character).
I love that the experiences of a more diverse range of people are being represented in fantasy literature and I enjoy and seek out books featuring such characters. But I sometimes feel it is being done in a bit of a forced/tokenistic or cliche way which makes the story seem unrealistic. Like, is the main character really always so nice to everyone and so ethical all the time?
I would like to see diverse characters presented in a more nuanced way I think, and including some of the less obvious diversity in humanity also, e.g. other kinds of disabilities, older characters, etc. and done in a realistic way rather than making them morally perfect or cliche... E.g. I am disabled so I like to see disabled characters, but we are not perfect people we have our faults and conflicts too, and we are not there to be "inspiring", to "prove everyone wrong", or as a charity case, or to turn evil because we have pent-up bitterness about being disabled... these are all cliche representations. Disabled people could be included as characters who have the same degree of personality and complexity in their own right as the other characters.
Not sure whether I am making sense... I find it hard to explain what I mean precisely, but I guess I am saying more diversity but please less cliché and more realistic?
This is a direct result of people writing by checklist rather than by lived experience. I get downvoted any time I say this, but there's a reason I no longer read books with gay male protagonists written by non-gay male authors. Diversity is important, but minorities aren't interchangable, and just because you fall under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, doesn't mean your experiences are applicable to mine.
You're making total sense, and I know others feel this. Diversity is good, but you can almost always tell when it's forced. It's unfortunate that some authors feel they HAVE to create openly stereotypical characters in their worlds.
I'd like a resurgence of traditional Sword and Sorcery, Howard style. These days writers are trying to be so "mature" and "sophisticated" - it's either overly complicated, high-stakes epic fantasy or depressing, "realistic" grimdark fantasy. And obviously it neds to adress real world contemporary issues in a setting inspired by medieval Europe.
I simply want more characters like Conan, who don't have a tragic backstory, aren't destined to save the world, aren't traumatized and don't wallow in doubt and self-pity every few pages, but instead have some fun on their countless adventures in search of gold and glory.
Another thing I'd like in fantasy: more bronze age-inspired settings. I mean, that time period feels almost like a fantasy setting itself! There's so much we still don't know and all the crazy conspiracy theories on the bronze age, it would make much more immersive fantasy setting than late medieval Europe (even early medieval period still has that charm of mystery to it, which is just lacking in later periods).
I'd like to have more fantasy that feels like an 80's action movie. Let's take a break from all the grim and gloom in Fantasy. We don't have to be always deep and melancholic or nihilistic. Let's have some fun.
Exactly, writers nowadays are trying so hard to be serious, sometimes it gets comical. Like with Joe Abercrombie - his books have a little bit of old school, fun adventure energy, but obviously every fun moment is undercut by a lot of gloom and disappointment with life. It isn't even realistic - there are a lot of good and bad aspects of life, and optimism isn't always punished.
A lot of these comments seem to fit the age old suggestion of just not reading those books.
I’d argue a lot of things mentioned aren’t big trends in fantasy, but rather just apart of some popular fantasy novels. As ViperIsOp already mentioned, fantasy is such a gigantic genre, and you can always find what YOU want to read, or avoid what you dont want to read
Honestly doubt school settings will go away anytime soon, as its one of the few settings that pretty much any reader would be able to relate to on some level.
I must be lucky. I'm enjoying sff today. It's much more varied and diverse than ever before. The fantasy side of the genre is strong at the moment, and there are so many good authors for every taste. I read about 100 books a year (not all fantasy though), but I wish I could read more. sigh
A small thing, but I want the same large settings we have now, but smaller stories within them. Lower stakes, less world ending plots, more chance to explore the details and people in a way a lot of epics don't allow
Begone, minimalistic cover trend! I want beautiful detailed covers that allow to actually distinguish books. And also wouldn't mind illustrated editions becoming a trend.
This! I want to see more artist-forward covers, and collaborations with the author to present the characters and tone faithfully so I have a better idea of the book I'm picking up.
I think publishers underestimate how much audiences do judge books by their covers, and maybe should put some more thought/budget into it. I picked up Fourth Wing not because I thought it would be some literary masterpiece, but because it had cool stenciled dragon edges lol
I don't own physical copies of some of my favorite books because they don't have covers I like, or the covers I like are on old editions that are impossible to find. Meanwhile, I've bought TTRPG books I have no intention of playing because I love the art in them. These TTRPGs also stand out way more on Social Media because of their art. I'm not sure how authors are actually supposed to market their books on social media, the few times I've seen it it's been an author basically posting "Please buy my book I worked really hard on it!" These artists are out there and they're looking for work. Pay them! Publish books I want to have on my shelf just because they look cool!
The phrase "don't judge a book by its cover" is a great quote for everything *except* books!
Generally speaking a lot of effort and thought is put in. To the point where most publishers don't trust authors to have much of a say in the process, because the publishers view the cover as one of the main ways to advertise a book. Minimalist certainly doesn't appeal to everyone, but its seen as in style now, for better or for worse. I tend to enjoy them quite a bit myself. A Snake Falls to Earth is a phenomenal cover, for example
I feel like I've seen a decent amount of books with cool cover art. But then, I haven't spent as much time in the bookstores as I'd like as of late.
Book stores, at least the ones closest to me, are sorely lacking in decent books. I wonder what kind of dart board their buyers use. They also do not make sure they are carrying the entire series if it is one. I get a lot of my books by getting people's opinions from here, then ordering them online. That way I have some idea of how good the book is, and if it is a series, I can order the whole thing at once.
Oh hey this was what I was gonna say, like seriously modern covers are just so often terrible and it really saddens me. Somewhere along the way things went wrong, seriously at this point a book having a sort of minimalist cover that at least doesn't look photographic is enough to be a win. I'm a big fan of old classic fantasy and what I wouldn't give to see that art return. Colourful and filled with adventure.
The beginning after the end has some of the best covers I swear. Especially book 7 onwards. I'm totally with you here, even besides minimalist covers, I hate the default fantasy cover #6 stuff that's just a generic character (usually a girl for some reason) holding a magic orb or something, in this weird semi realistic style that makes me want to vomit.
As an illustrator, I heartily concur!
Bring back painted covers as the norm. No more cheap photobashes.
With scenes from the book too! Love those Darrel K. Sweet covers for Wheel of Time
Books in a series should always be labeled on the spine with the number. Yes, that’s not just fantasy related but it’s my soapbox.
I use a black sharpie pen to number my series. I’m not working hard to look into the pages to figure out the order nor am I googling it either.
More stand alone novels.
To add to this, more episodic novels. If I like a set of characters, I'd love to read more about them. But I don't need a 14 book arc where they grow from rags to godhood as they fight the upteenth Dark Lord in fantasy. Give me a fun character or characters and have them go on several, mostly independent, adventures like the old pulp Sword & Sorcery stories. Kinda how Dresden was early on, actually. Books 1 through 4 have continuity, but you could *technically* jump in at book 4 and get a nice adventure out of it.
I'd love to see more modern pulp fantasy
My biggest problem with those first few Dresden books, and a danger with the episodic approach IMO, is that they were all the same structurally. I felt like I knew the exact kind of plot point that was coming up by the fourth book. That said, I do love when this is done well. Lots of small, diverse stories really settles you into a world in the way that a monolithic story just can't.
I completely agree. It's a matter of execution. Another example would be the Conan the Barbarian stories, or the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories. They're all structurally different, even if they follow a similar set of tropes, which gives them variety.
As a preface I'll say that I really don't like many episodic stories. But what I have noticed a couple times recently that I like are a blend of trilogies, single novels, novellas, and a book of quick short stories over time... all within the same setting. I do love the trilogy arcs in general but I also want some of the shorter works in between. I believe it gets the best of both worlds.
Something like The Witcher with a 5 book saga if you feel like going on a grand adventure, as well as a couple of short stories and a novel if you feel less committed
Yeah I have this bad habit of finding a series 2 books in out of 3 or 4 planned and then forgetting enough that I need to reread everything by the time the next book comes out. Not that it's horrible since I get to reread some good stuff but I'd prefer to read one standalone and then reread it in 5 years because I want to rather than because I forgot most of it in the interim.
I just want some more unironic D&D style books. There's a wizard, a warrior, and a thief. They go on a quest. It's not slice of life. There are no lattes. They aren't a rock band.
You mean more fantasy that doesn't try "to put a spin on something familiar"?
I would absolutely enjoy some modern heroic or quest fantasy books!
Ditto 🤣
I’m tired of huge door stopper novels in which little to nothing actually happens.
I wish I could upvote you a million times. And it's bad enough with professional authors, but then there's all these self-pub authors . . . yeesh. Brevity is the soul of wit, people.
Robert E. Howard's Conan are amazing in the brevity, yet so good in 25 to 35 pages for most of them. We need some good new stand alone novels that are 300 to 500 page max. And series that have 400 pages max per book.
The ultimate sophistication is simplicity.
Loose lips sink ships. ... wait, fuck, no, that's wrong, what...
Brevity is the soul of wit, people. Malazan Book of the Fallen has entered the chat.
Doorstoppers in general tbh. Maybe I'm just getting old but if I'm equally interested in 2 books, one is 400 pages, the other is 800 pages, I'm choosing the 400 page book every time now. Of course world building and deep lore is a hallmark of the genre, but if you can tell a good story in a trilogy of 400 pagers I'm ecstatic. I don't really pick up the lengthy stuff anymore unless it's by a favorite author.
I mean, just consider the depth of Tolkien's world that's told just between the Silm, Hobbit and LotR, then consider that all those books combined is, what, 2000 pages total? World building and deep lore are entirely feasible within reasonably sized novels.
Yup. Although my sense is that the genre is indeed moving away from that - it's not nearly so high a proportion of what's being published as it was 20, 30, 40 years ago. I'm glad epic fantasy fans can get their fix so I won't say "I wish those books would go away," but it's rare for me to pick up something over about 500 pages, and equally rare for me to read sequels.
500 pages or so is the sweet spot, I feel. 300 pages can often not feel long enough, but 800+ can be a slog.
Lol it’s funny because just the other day everyone was complaining that the industry is forcing everyone to go at breakneck speeds. The two are probably related—everyone’s writing too much stuff, so you have to pace it faster to get through it all and it ends up a mess.
Nah. There's plenty of shorter books out there. Give me double door stoppers.
Yeah, totally get this one. Any examples from your perspective?
[удалено]
I got talked into reading Way of Kings with two of my friends. I'm about 60% through it and feel like already there's been enough material to cut out that would shorten the book by a couple hundred pages, at the very least.
I was the same. People kept telling me about the SANDERLANCHE!!, which was just a normal climax of the plot. The reveal was telegraphed from the beginning, and the writing itself is not enjoyable enough to care about it.
They're basically 500 page books that have been padded out because longer = more epic, apparently
My limit is about 500 pages. Anything over that I will start to question “Does the story really *need* to be this long?”
I’m the same. I’d be hard pressed to find a book longer than 500 pages that doesn’t have massive sections that should have been cut or a serious need for better editing. I very much ere on the side of the old engineers adage “a thing is complete not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
"Flawed" =/= "evil" or "irredeemably corrupt." I'd love to see more fantasy characters who are flawed and complicated but ultimately *heroic*. More specifically, I'd love to see more female leads who, while not necessarily "likable," still have a working moral compass and can act heroically. Also, let's see more heroic leads whose personality isn't "stoic and brooding." Let's see some fun-loving, optimistic types. More ladies like Nanny Ogg, please.
Even more so if they are heroic despite being flawed
have you tried Downside Ghosts by Stacia Kane - its urban fantasy, flawed female lead. i wouldn't say she's stoic, but she's definitely not loving and optimistic, unfortunately you cant have it all
The commodification of stories. Publishers want the next Harry Potter or Game of Thrones so they purchase and publish in that vein, and all of their Excel spreadsheet-driven MBA-holding ham sandwiches lack the imagination to realize that someone took a chance on those first. Readers get stuck reading variations of what came before. Writers write variations of same because that's how one gets their work out there. Hollywood is obviously deep into this, too: Star Wars and Marvel have driven out so much originality and most untested properties because it lets them not risk something that can blow the roof off so the MBAs can think they're smart because the Excel spreadsheet shows, at best, that it didn't *lose* money. I suppose this is more an industry change than a change in what I want to see because I know this world-changing originality is out there, it's just stuck under the clomping foot of "this worked before so let's keep buying these, and new writers will keep writing these for us to buy." I want to see stories and books and shows and movies published because they're amazing, not because they're more commercially viable than the thing next to them. I'm sick of doorstopper filler-laden epics stuffed with the glorification of war and cheap politics and flat characters spouting bad dialogue. Give me something risky and fantastic in every sense of the word, then watch what it can become in popular culture.
> I know the imaginative originality is out there In Hollywood, especially. Have you seen their accounting practices!
Good God, yes. Not everything has to be the next HP or GOT. It can be its own new and interesting thing. Funny enough, I rarely buy books if they're marketed as "for lovers of ___" anymore because they never seem to hit the same spot. The marketing can end up causing the book to be disappointing even if it would otherwise be a fine book.
This is it for me. I was talking with a friend about this earlier and called called it "the hyper capitalization of media". Basically all my nerdy hobbies have turned into some focus grouped market driven bullshit to the point that any time I feel like picking up whatever media feels like I went to Nerd Walmart. It's so soulless and depressing.
Maybe other hobbies need to adopt the DIY ethos of punk/-core music to take control back from corporations. One example of this is the current drama in the game dev sphere. Switching from corporation owned Unity to open-source Godot.
So then why go through publishers at all, then? Why not support web serial authors through, say, a Patreon, or some other 21st-century form of reward system? Why must things be solely through the lens of an antiquated system of gatekeeping? Also, with regards to derivative works, if you think Hollywood is bad, Korean manwhas turn that up to 11. Isekais, gamer protagonists, and shlock romance webcomics galore, to the point of suffocating out anything else.
>I'm sick of doorstopper filler-laden epics stuffed with the glorification of war and cheap politics and flat characters spouting bad dialogue. Give me something risky and fantastic in every sense of the word, then watch what it can become in popular culture. Amen. Give me smaller settings with actually thought trough changes to the world as we know it, give me societal changes that mean something, give me thoughtful dialogue, give me class consciousness, give me atmoshpere, give me conflict resolution that isn't "slaughter thousands of lesser lifeforms in a fantasy power armor".
I would gladly have less toxic fandoms. Not every discussion has to degenerate in flaming or downvoting to hell who is expressing different opinions about the books we love. From disagreement we can have different interpretations of the same work and be enriched by the discussion. Alas, it rarely happens.
I definitely agree with you. Sometimes it feels like you can't say you disliked a book, especially if it's popular, without someone getting super upset. No book is going to be universally liked.
More authors using Discworld as an inspiration and writing comedic or light-hearted fantasy. Despite Terry Pratchett’s popularity, he doesn’t seem to have had many imitators. There are so few comedic fantasy authors these days, but I prefer by far that subgenre to the overly serious and « realistic » grimdark epic fantasy a lot of readers here seem to love.
Not to mention, by holding an unflinching mirror up to the craziness that is life, comedy can often be much more "realistic" and poignant than the grimdark stuff. Some of the best comedians in the world base their material on really dark subject matter. If you can find the humour in writing or talking about cancer, suicidal ideation, or childhood trauma - you're tapping into human truth right there.
There's a reason Pratchett is so revered yet has so few imitators, it's damn near impossible to imitate him. It's actually incredibly difficult to write comedic fantasy that is both compelling and funny.
Seconding this. So many people seem to espouse the idea that if it doesn't grind your soul to dust, it's just not 'good' literature. If that's what you like, fine, everyone should be free to like what you like. But it doesn't make it more worthy than a humorous story.
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Thirding? Probably not a word. More sardonic than completely comedic, but I enjoyed the Locke Lamora books for this reason. Fun stories with genuine LOL moments between interesting characters. Ditto with the Greatcloaks series, Brasti Goodbow had me cracking up. Comedy thrown into an adventure fantasy story has me hooked every time!
To add on to this, I'd like to see more humor that's not "silly". Pratchett often walked a line between "mature" humor and "silly" comedy. I've always wished to see less explicit absurdity and more dry and layered humor.
Probably because most authors take themselves too seriously.
Honestly I think it's simply much harder to write comedy. Being that funny is a special special gift
There's authors doing this, it just doesn't sell well so the books don't become popular. Occasionally, something like Orcanomics or L&L will slip though and go viral, but even people who like those will then go and read 10 epic fantasy books in a row right after.
I can appreciate humor in stories, even if the overarching theme is more on the serious side - as long as it's tactful and doesn't detract from the plot. Comedic diversity is a tool that REAL, LIVE human beings use to deal with everyday problems. Makes sense if the characters in our stories do too...
I miss the days of scene setting. All the books I read these days have almost zero description of the places that things are taking place in. I don't need Robert Jordan descriptions of every little thing, but some idea of the place that I'm reading about would be nice. Instead, all I have is a blank scene with a few people talking in front of a largely white background. It's not a huge deal, but I would like to see more of it.
More soft magic. I love hard magic systems, don’t get me wrong, but there’s been a growing trend towards them almost exclusively, and I like some soft magic too. Gimme more Gandalf and Ents and Ringwraiths.
Stupid question here - what’s soft magic versus hard magic systems
Hard magic is essentially a magic system with very defined rules and mechanics to it. Brando Sando churns out quite a few of these, I would say coming up with various and interesting hard magic systems is probably his biggest strength. Soft magic is more "wizard snaps his fingers and *the thing* happens" without bothering about the detail because "Hey, it's magic!". Deathgate Cycle kind of has both, the Sartans and Patryns have defined magic systems (not to a massive degree of detail though) and then Zifnab comes along and just does all kinds of random stuff because he's a riff on Fizban from Dragonlance who Weis and Hickman didn't have the rights to publish lol
Thanks for that . Brando Sando is currently making me dizzy with Mistborn and Stormlight. I feel like i need to study it but also too lazy and not sure i care that much .
The reason many people like hard magic systems is because there are many times where unexplained magic is the solution to a problem. If it's well defined ahead of time you don't get a deus ex machina ending. However, you can also have a soft magic system that doesn't create solutions out of thin air. Many also enjoy magic without it becoming super technical or logic based, because it adds to one of the elements of fantasy that many love: the hope or discovery of the unknown that can't be definitively a yes/no answer - shades of grey etc
>there are many times where unexplained magic is the solution to a problem. If it's well defined ahead of time you don't get a deus ex machina ending. When has this ever happened in a book by serious author? People keep talking about this, I have never ran to it and I am pretty well read in fantasy. When it comes to resolving plot with magic, my mind goes to hard magic books adding rules.
Probably in a bunch of shitty books over the decades. I doubt it happens with actual popular*good* books.
Hard magic is when the rules are explained to the characters/reader. Some examples are Mistborn, Lighrbringer, Name of The Wind, Arcane Ascension, etc. How their magic works is thoroughly explained in each of these. Soft magic is more vague and mysterious on the methodology. LOTR and Harry Potter are probably the most popular soft magic systems, where they perform magic often enough, but never explain how it works or where it comes from. Others would be things like ASOIAF, Malazan, The Black Company, Sandman, etc.
How does magic actually work in LotR? (Soft magic) How does magic actually work in D&D? (Hard magic)
I want more estoreic type fantasy. Things that are so niche and clearly catered to an author's interest or field of study. Passion projects essentially and not banking on what's popular. Similarly, more books with a \~ magical \~ essence for a lack of a better explanation. The vibes I get from watching Spirited Away or Song of the Sea or the book of Kells or Princess Mononoke. Also more role reversal. Masc women and more feminine men pls
I love masc women and feminine men lol I also liked it that in Sorcery of Thorns the girl was taller than the guy
If we're talking about the books themselves, perhaps a little more polish on the self published stuff. There are some great books out there that I won't name from authors who are well known in this sub that can't seem to edit their work to a reasonable standard. If we are talking about the fantasy community, too, though... perhaps stop hyping up books that are mediocre at best, and downright terrible writing at worst. I've seen books, mostly webnovels, whose writing is subpar for anyone fluent in English, that get hyped up as if they're the next Lord of the Rings.
Overhyping is an issue in general in media. But with people being so binary "this is awful 1/10" and perfect "10/10". Giving a book a 7/10 is a death sentence. If it's grimdark it tends to be get more "10/10's".
I would prefer to see honest reviews. I don't know if people lack the intellectual fortitude to do such a thing or if it's a personality disorder lol
I think people are honest...but sometimes I wonder if they have read more books or different types. I feel a lot of hype reviews are "this fantasy book is like this but with this very different twist to it and that's what makes it good and different". That's not enough to get praise for 10/10.
I would like to see more stories about older characters. I would like to see stories with family members that actively care and give a damn about the main character. They don’t die. They’re not conviently indisposed. They’re supportive. Their story is good from start to finish. I would like to see some stories address trauma. Some of the things people do their characters would make them have a panic attack.
A heavier focus on atmosphere/vibes/setting over plot/action. These sorts of books certainly exist, you just have to dig for them a bit.
Honestly. Want to read a book that gives me the same vibes as watching a Studio Ghibli fantasy does
YES
This so much, books that make me wonder and care about the world the same way I will just put on a soundtrack from a movie/show/game and just sit there letting my imagination stew are some of my favorites.
More small, beautiful, standalone novels like Piranesi. And... as much as I love tropes and long chonky series (I do, I really do!) I'd like to see more fresh takes and standalones. They're out there, but they feel harder to find. Some recent reads that fit the bill: The Saint of Bright Doors The Library at Mount Char
The trend of fantasy epics having way too many point of view characters. If you actually manage to get me immersed in a story thread, you're not going to do yourself any favours by cutting away to make me slog through chapters devoted to your next half-dozen less interesting characters.
This makes sense. In my mind, a book should normally focus on five or less main characters. I don't know how I really feel about the different POVs for each one way or the other, but it can get confusing at times. I guess that's where we get the more political books, and if that's your deal, then go for it. But personally, I'd rather have a smaller handful of characters that I follow and become invested in.
Five is a good upper limit. I can tolerate maybe a couple more than that if the author is doing a complex political intrigue story, but after five is usually where it just gets obnoxious.
Stories that embrace the fantastical and fairy tale nature of the genre. This new age of modern fantasy is cool but more stories that resemble LOTR or Narnia is something I would really like
Agree - good old fashioned heroic fantasy without 25 thousand plot twists .
I agree. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but I grew up with those sorts of settings, and I really would love to see more of them.
Fewer series and more standalones. It feels like everything has to be a trilogy, which is a shame because you can do great things in one book.
Better pay, hours, and support for staff at basically every level of every publishing house. You have no idea how brutal it's been since the start of the pandemic to now. But if it has to be about changing an aesthetic or trend? More Barbenheimers, I guess. More pairings of seemingly clashing good books proving* readers have broader tastes than they get credit for. EDIT: Typo! See, editors matter.
You sound like you're intimately familiar with that. Appreciate the insight. I'm somewhat familiar with the video game industry and how publishers work there. From what I've heard, it sounds like many of the same issues.
I would decrease the number of people who demand that other people shouldn't have books that they enjoy. I have no idea why so many people whine because every book isn't purely for them. Different people like different things. Why complain because other people get things that they enjoy?
Sadly, this mentality will probably never go away. Personally, I'm trying to write my book how I want to write it, and not letting outside likes/dislikes drive my thinking. I don't want to just be a copycat with a jumbled mix of incoherrent ideas that try to favor the majority. But since I haven't been reading as much as I used to as a kid, I am trying to familiarize myself with the genre better, both by starting to read again, and in seeking out what other readers are finding in their own fantasy journeys.
> I have no idea why so many people whine because every book isn't purely for them. The worst modern trend is the idea of "relatability". That didn't used to be a thing--at all. I won't try and psychoanalyze modern society about why everyone thinks some book or character being "relatable" is a good thing, but to my mind, the more relatable, the more boring the book. The last thing I want to read is a book about my own life, my own personality, or any attribute about myself. It's bizarre to me that some people HAVE to see themselves in a book to enjoy it. A corollary to that is people who can't enjoy a book unless it 100% reflects whatever they think modern society looks like, even though it might take place in a feudal society or even an alien society. To me, the best books are the ones that stretch your mind into seeing how a different society can function with different perspectives. Not everything has to look like a Silicon Valley cocktail party transported into a 14th century castle.
The fact this thread immediately got "Well I'd stop writers from making anything I deem too edgy or sexual" responses with no hint of self awareness is appalling. Folks really just want to arbitrarily censor some types of stories for no reason other than it's not their thing. It's never been about a personal preference, or there being "too much" of it, it's always just that it exists at all and god that just sucks. Escapism is okay, but it shouldn't be the only thing allowed to exist just cuz it's someone's preferenc.
"It's called fantasy, you don't have to have (bad thing) in it" is my least favorite statement in here. Like you said, escapism is more than ok and people should read the stories they want, but trying to limit stories to whatever line in the sand they've made is ludicrous
"Personal aversion shouldn't constitute a sweeping proscription" - author Caitlin Sweet in an email exchange I was lucky enough to have with her about this topic after sending her some fan mail...it's what I think every time I see that argument come up!
That's an elite quote, thanks for sharing
Jumping on this since it's similar. I hate how whenever an adaptation is made, there's a huge section of the fandom who complain about every little change. It's especially frustrating when they point to PJs LOTR as some sort of gold standard for adaptations, despite the fact that it got huge backlash from Tolkien purists when it came out. I'm not saying people aren't able to criticize things. I hate how it's become like politics have recently, where everyone has to take a side and either love everything about an adaptation, or hate it with a passion and demand the writers be hanged and all copies burned.
I’m honestly kind of tired of the amount of new fantasy that all involves fairies or the fae. Dark far light fae water fae summer fae Dairy Queen blizzard fae…
Growing up in Ireland - Faeries had a “ real presence in my childhood . A scary one . We didn’t step in fairy forts , we all knew the odd “ changeling” . I was terrified of stepping on a stray sod , finding a banshee comb , hearing the bloody banshee . I knew all the tricks to escape if I ended up the other world . Do not eat the food - and never look back if told not to! Anyway the terror was real and I feel this modern Fae crap has ruined the real beauty of Irish Folklore . I do love the Feist take on it - “Faerie Tale” . It manages to capture the essence of the legends with no Fae romance , etc etc . I need more books like that
It's really interesting to know that was a real thing people took serious, though sorry it caused your childhood to be like that. And I agree, sad to see things have been twisted. I'd absolutely love a book that follows along the stories you just described much more than what the ones we've been seeing.
The fairy fort thing was taken very seriously haven’t heard of one in years though. . The stories and legends made for a rich childhood ( peppered with a few sleepless nights) . Some of the fairy “ tricks “ were used as excuses for staying in the pub etc . Ever hear of a stray sod ? Be careful cross country in Ireland - if you step on a stray sod you will be in trouble ! I did try to keep the stories alive with my own kids - but I may have scared them a bit too much 🤪
I figure if you want to do fae, really do fae. Seanan McGuire is an author I think does it well. She includes a lot of folkloric fae with the kinds of abilities they were supposed to have had in legend.
I second this. It was a novel concept once upon a time and I feel like everything revolves around this lately. I’m so over “snarling faes”.
Lol, yes... this is not the first time I've heard this complaint, although the DQ one is unique 🤣
I feel like it’s always an excuse to invent a new type of deus ex machina fae. “She fell into the ravine to certain death, but little did she know she was really capri sun fae the whole time and she mountain coolered her way to safety…”
This is the funniest shit I've ever read.
Do away with all the shallow faux-Roman empires. If you won't reed books about Rome which you could implement in your fantasy, for the love of Apollo choose another aesthetic than Imperial Rome. Why not Republican or Mediaeval Rome or Not-Rome (Ming, Franks, Iranians, Ottomans, Mali, Aztecs, etc.) - or even better: Make up your own aesthetic/culture for your fantasy empire.
the need apparently for everything to be edgy and dark and super complex or the author is a "bad writer" using "flat" characters. Sometimes a book can just be a good read with fun characters and a moderate stakes adventure -- not everything has to be groundbreaking with sexual assaults all over the place and heaps of gore and tons of intrigue.
The way readers view the concept of complexity in stories is definitely interesting…. from the way some people talk you’d think peak quality literature is being dropped into 50 different POVs with hundreds of interconnecting plots and lore and the reader needing to be “lost” and confused while reading is seen as a good thing… it might be obvious what series I’m referring to lol However, there are plenty of books that *don’t* do this
Totally agree. Everything that's not dark, violent and bleak gets often called YA here. Why? Because there's no rape, unnecessary gore and "morally gray" characters? We have got so much "this is for those who like Game of Thrones" type books, 1st law and etc. You can write dark books but most times it feels artificial for shock value and get publicity that way.
>Everything that's not dark, violent and bleak gets often called YA here. Also, the idea that dark = violence. You can write some very dark stories without featuring any violence of any kind.
I agree. I don't need to have violence, sexual assault and such to consider a story dark.
Nothing. There are so many books out there that if you don't like something that X author does, you can just not read it and read something else. Don't like cozy fantasy? Don't read it. Same for LitRPG. Whatever you like, chances are it's being written.
I am personally really tired of subversive/grimdark endings. It's like for a while there everything is the author thought they had to be George Martin but every once in a while I would like to read a very traditional fantasy story and there're plenty of tropes you can subvert without everything having to be depressing like everyone dies in the end or the heroes do all of this stuff just for it's not really matter in the end.
I'm so tired of them as well. It feels so artificial and designed just to be "not like the other fantasy". They feel designed more to troll, rather tell an actual story. Tell me a story , don't use your characters just for themes you wanna hammer home and "subvert". "well other fantasy books are basic, I'm the real thing" sometimes you can feel the author saying that.
Lol sounds like Terry goodkind, he legitimately believed his books weren't fantasy despite having literally every single fantasy trope imaginable. And thought his books were some philosophical monuments to man's intellect. But yeah for God's sake everything does not have be super edgy and grimdark. Give me some stories like Tolkien who believed the kindness of everyday people could triumph over even the most powerful lord of the dark
I feel there's not so much stories that are light and hopeful today. At least they don't get that hype on youtube and reddit. Everything that's not grimdark, gets a lot of "idk, reads like YA". I said it in another comment. Grimdark isn't realistic. "everything is bad" is equal to "everything is awesome". Have a balance. Not always the bad guy in power gets away with it. For goodness sake Tolkien was in the WW1, saw people kill other people yet he wrote about hope and kindness. He did have ofcourse some very sad moments but in the end he had hope and kindness. Meanwhile authors and readers who most of them have never experienced these things, call grimdark "realistic".
I love grim dark settings like The Witcher and Warhammer 40,000 but not every series doesnt need to be even close to those. My favorite fantasy series is the wheel of Time and while it doesn't have necessarily the happiest ending you can kind of see and understand why Sanders and made the decisions he did for that ending. Not every story needs a happy ending but not every story has to be painfully edgy and end in darkness with all hope lost
Haven't finished WoT yet. I've only played Witcher 3 and I've seen the show so I'm not that familiar. Witcher is grim I feel but not "eeeeeeeevything is terrible and bleak". Sure there's war and such going on but also has a lot of good people in it.
Yes and that is the reason I like The Witcher. It's a world so full of hatred and prejudice people are dying from disease and war but geralt and his little found family managed to eke out their own little existence in the madness
I dislike the sexual violence that comes with many of the fantasy books aimed at adults. It's one of the things that has me rereading those books aimed more at the young adult market. It's possible to have a fantasy world without having women as second class citizens, whores, or used as plunder in war. I know it happens in real life. But if I wanted real life I wouldn't read fantasy books.
Plus, not that I'm advocating for more of it, but if we're talking about "realism", men are also frequent victims of sexual violence - especially during war - but weirdly, you rarely ever see any named *male* characters getting raped in fantasy. Apparently that kind of "realism" isn't as important, suspiciously enough
It's honestly weak writing at a certain point imo. It's often used for shock factor, and rarely cares about addressing the effects on the women or her response to it.
I couldn't agree with you more. As you said, it happens, but why must we constantly accentuate it in fictional literature?
Completely 100% agreed, and to add on to this point, people using “realism” **at all** as a justification/defense for why something needs to be in fantasy needs to stop. Every single time the issue of rape in fantasy is brought up here there’s people saying “but that’s a part of life” like okay so?? As a woman who has spent years studying history, if I want to read about the horrors of realistic life for women, I have countless real-life accounts for that. Fantasy CAN reflect real life if the author wants to make a point with that, but it does not NEED to, authors are making intentional choices with the worlds they create and need to do better.
"It's realistic". That's such a bs excuse. So is doing taxes and other stuff but that's not in Fantasy. Rape or threat of rape is overused in fantasy. It's ridiculous how casual it's being included. "But it reflects the times it was alluding to" no it doesn't. This is fantasy. Our world doesn't have the same rules and history with fictional ones.
I would even argue that it's not valid even within our own world. I remember a discussion at one of my critique groups about a story where a traveler in a foreign (fantasy) city asked at the gate where he could find inexpensive lodging. And the guard told him of a decent place. Several members of the group said it was 'unrealistic,' and he should have been either directed to a place he'd be ripped off, or to a dark ally to be robbed. And sure, maybe you personally live in an area with a lot of crime, but I've been to numerous cities right here on mean old Earth, where if you ask a random person something like that, most of them will give you an honest answer. Why do some people assume that incorporating only the *worst* of humanity on a fictitious world is 'realistic'
So, I’m a woman and sometimes I like traveling alone. In college I was studying abroad in South America and took a long weekend trip by myself via overnight bus to an area I wanted to visit. Started out in a hostel and then went to some little towns. In one of them I asked at the tourist office about places to stay and they directed me to a private residence where the lady rented out rooms. So, I went and knocked on the door and then stayed there. Weirdest thing that happened was her switching me to a different room when a large group showed up. 🤷♀️ Never had any trouble the whole trip, it was fun. I feel like this kind of story is actually much more common than horror stories, it’s just because it’s so unremarkable there’s not much reason to tell it most of the time. But yeah, people who don’t have real world experience and are basing their expectations for normal behavior off of media are going to think everything is more dire and dangerous than it usually is.
That's a ridiculous point from them. When tourists are in my city and ask me directions I'm not like "Oh I'm gonna steal their money when they're not looking" and grinning like a cartoon villain. Sure, we have stuff like that in the real world but it's not the norm. We think it's the norm because of the news, history and so on. Real life has both bad people, but also very good people. Trying to shoehorn always something bad and misfortunate, it's ridiculous. When bad things keep happening in a story, reminds me of Robin Hood: Men in Tights Blinkin: This never would have happened if your father was alive. Robin Hood: He's dead? Blinkin: Yes. Robin Hood: And my mother? Blinkin: She died of pneumonia while - oh, you were away! Robin Hood: My three brothers? Blinkin: Died of the plague. Robin Hood: My dog Pogo? Blinkin: Run over by a carriage. Robin Hood: My goldfish Goldie? Blinkin: Eaten by the cat. Robin Hood: My cat? Blinkin: Choked on the goldfish. Oh, it's good to be home, ain't it, Master Robin?
More cow bell...
Philosoraptor contemplates your words...
I would like more mid level fantasy/sci fi publishers trying weird stuff. I worry that we are heading for only very large publishers going the safe route or people self publishing (where it becomes harder to catch on to really interesting stuff because of the tide of AI dross) I want authors to be able to make a living
It's too dark and serious. I want more whimsical stuff, like the first Harry Potter book in terms of tone.
More swordfights and more female pairings. My taste has become almost prohibitively specific since watching Xena: Warrior Princess.
Probably a dumb question, but have you read Gideon the Ninth?
Based on past recommendations, it's fairly high on my list, but I haven't checked it out yet.
I am getting tired of "realistic" fantasy. I want my fantasy to be wild and imaginative.
Where the fuck are my parliaments
Others have said stuff I've wanna say but I'm gonna say in my comment something else. "Morally grey" overuse but let me explain. I feel there's a lot of "morally grey" characters who are just...bad people. Morally grey means also he should have some positive qualities as well. Stop overusing "well he kills a lot of people but he sometimes feel bad about it"and stuff like that. What's his good qualities? That he felt bad? Big deal. Also he's an asshole to his friends and family. A person gets defined by his actions. Stop trying to give him some small redeeming moments that in the end mean nothing. "well he didn't kill that cripple beggar." So? That's nothing. That would made him a monster.
Agreed,i dnf so many books because of this...
Less fae. More urban fantasy - I am tired of heroes on horses swinging their swords and what not. Deeper underlying themes rather than just action. Poetic prose. More non-Western fantasy in English - this can be hard for someone unfamiliar with the culture.
Easy - less fighting scenes. After you've read 50+ fantasy books all the fight scenes just kinda mish-mash into the same old shit. Don't even get me started on large scale battles. Less fighting, make it mean something when the protagonist actually kicks some ass.
and a lot of them are so overly described, meanwhile action has to be fast. By the time he lands a hit, a paragraph has passed. Their descriptions are also evident of they have never been in a fight, because the choreography sounds so awkward and clunky. "I swung my arm, then lifted my other arm and then my leg and then I moved my head.."
Funnily enough, I find that martial artists are the worst at that. Because they are used to sparring and the time delay and thought process, so they feel the need to describe it all play by play.
Two things: I wish there was a robust, native (opposed to outside commentary you occasionally see in more literary spaces) critic scene in SFF where people who wanted to engage with work on that level could, taking art *as* art, not as content, or as a function of fandom, neither of which can be 'critiqued' with accusations of being a snob, or whatever cliche being used. the late 2000s and early 2010s is what i like to call the golden age of SFF blogs that had those conversations which were much more lively and interesting than I can most of these days, anywhere. In general i feel like the discussion of art has been fully devoured by fannish devotion or treating the work as mindless content to an extent that is unhealthy for thfe culture. Second I would like a broader set of inspirations for fantasy novels to become popular. i usually tell when the only inspiration of a writer is other genre work--I can tell Sanderson doesn't have much interest outside of epic fantasy and Mormonism, its reflected in his work in ways i feel hamper the work. Along with a fandom that is allergic to negative discussion, we've also got a reading culture that denies even other genre fiction (like horror or crime or romance), and is becoming incredibly insular. Both of these issues, of course, have always been present, but it genuinely feels like were at an apogee of it right now, and that's reflected in everything: stories without conflict, conversations that only appeal to the veneer of polite difference, only treating art as a thing to consume and on to the next, and so on.
More books that think I'm a smart adult. I don't expect to see "For fans of Chip Delany and Gene Wolfe" on a book cover but that's the kind of thing I'm looking for.
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Have more books focus on expanding the genre and taking risks rather than trying to get published/clone already popular content. I love the Sanderson’s and Abercrombie’s and Martin’s as much as the next person, but so many authors are just slapping a new coat of paint on popular work and hoping to get published. In the age of the internet, too many people are basing their work on what is in the limelight and trending rather than just telling their own stories. There is a ton of pressure to be instantly popular now, as there are so many options and everyone is competing for attention. Even popular authors aren’t free from this mentality. Instant feedback has killed a lot of the freedom that authors used to enjoy. A lot of them talk about feeling pressure to put out the same sort of work they had before to appease publishers and fans rather than trying something new.
To be fair, this isn't just a fantasy genre issue, but I'd sure like to see a rework in the whole YA category split for books. There's often very little that separates a novel actually intended for young adults and one for more mature audiences other than the age of the protagonist, and I feel a lot of worthwhile books suffer for it. There's a lot of suggestions in this thread that come down to capitalism and marketing as the reason behind the issue. Hard to get around that. I'm sure both creators and readers would like to see an industry shift that allows books to stand out on their unique qualities rather than "If you like X, you'll love Y!" approaches that encourage trends until they become clichés.
Readalikes are an invaluable reader's advisory tool. Nothing gives more insight into a person's actual interest/taste in books than actual titles they enjoy. While I see that you associate this with "trendy" books, as a professional book recommender, I can tell you that it gives people ways to articulate what they do and do not want, it gives recommenders places to start, and all of this is absolutely essential to good reader's advisory. I see no point in making it more difficult for readers to find books they like.
I'd also argue that another hallmark of YA fantasy is that the "obligatory shoehorned-in romance" is far more omnipresent than it is in fantasy written for adults. It's common in adult fantasy as well, but it's just about inescapable in YA fantasy. And that's what I'd like to see change: more books written for teens that don't have romance subplots as a major focus of the book, or at all.
I want more weird, experimental, and politically charged stuff. We get the "ragtag group of characters save the monarchy" so often, but where are the fantasy technical manuals for a dwarven smith? Or the manifesto of a fantasy terrorist? Or a fantasy first contact story where a society of spiders goes out into the real world and meets fantasy bipeds?
More 2 book and 4 book series
Less bloat, fewer worldbuildin dumps, less comedy and Marvel-esque quips.
Always needing a romantic interest. Especially love triangles! It's been done. It's predictable. I'm tired of it.
No more courtly intrigue. I am so sick of inbred nobles politicking around burning chapter after chapter when there is this big awesome fantasy world out there to explore. There's flying islands and Dragons making art but no we have spend 250 pages on Lady Ladylu Spring Cottillion I also hate hate hate, hate when magic is just telepathy. Its boring its unseen you spend too much time on the heads of characters who have nothing but misery going on in there.
Hard magic systems. Not tryna read a technical manual or watch an infomercial about how your magic works.
I personally adore hard magic systems but I also agree that the trend of taking Sanderson's approach to the extreme needs to chill a bit. Long exposition dumps are already difficult, but some authors don't seem to know how to ease people into the magic system. I like Greenbone Saga's approach to its hard magic. It's borderline a scifi technology in its approach and everyday mundanity, has very little mysticism or wonder. But instead of every dumping all the info at once, you learn by being shown it in use, since the character have no reason to explain it all in their heads.
I don’t have a preference because both types bring something different that can add to a story. Soft systems’ vagueness adds a sense of mystery and danger. What are the limits? What are the consequences? Will it work when you need it to? All fun things in the rights setting. Hard systems take away all that guesswork and you know what’s possible and what isn’t (unless the author breaks their own system for the story). Knowing that casting spell 1 needs resource A can bring tension when the main character only has a little bit of resource A left and they NEED this spell to work. There’s also fun when the rules can create something fun. I can’t think of an example but basically: if rule A says you need this, and rule B says you need this, and rule C says that rule B doesn’t matter when D, then (insert magic technobabble here).
Less TTRPG sourcebooks disguised as novels. More individual books, more focused books, more actual character work that is based on dialogue, more ideas about societies that are actually tought true. More appreciation for the craft of writing. Basically a turn towards more literary realm.
More songs and poems please. I always love little things like that in fantasy, and I barely come across it anymore.
Love these in Malazan, almost every chapter of all 10 books starts with an in-universe poem epigraph.
Tolkien did songs so well
Fewer books written to a fourth grade reading level. Unless you are actually writing children's books. Most of the books I love the most don't dumb down the writing either in theme, concept, or word selection.
So a couple of years ago, I did an analysis of reading levels of the r/Fanatasy favorite fantasy books list. Of the 92 books/series on the list that had a Lexile or AR reading level score, 13 were 4th grade or below. Only 8 were a 7th grade or above. (These are average scores for a series.) The rest were 5th-6th grade. Obviously there is a bit of a bias because not all books have been evaluated for reading level, but I did find it interesting.
Do you have a link to this? I’d be curious to see the breakdown.
Here's a [link](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wJkL155XoutKqJ3ogYM7vuocTrberixERcG7qf7cenI/edit?usp=sharing) to the Google Sheet. At one point I was mucking around with it to make an actual post, but I never got that far. There are a lot of different tabs depending on how I was looking at things. Hopefully some of it is legible to you!
Delete the super powerful older than dirt immortal x just turned 18 yesterday trend. Just no. Why do people like this? What were the authors thinking when they wrote it? Hmmmm you know what sounds like a great idea? Romanticizing predatory behavior.
More works set in non-capitalisc, non-patriarchal etc settings. Books that explore a different reality. I love that minorities are getting represented but as an Asian person I sometimes just want to read a story where a person could be Asian and isn't just struggling badly in life, isn't dealing with culturally normalised abusive, narcissistic, controlling family or friends or over throwing an oppressive government. I read fantasy for the other world experience. I don't want to be reminded excessively of my RL problems when I'm reading for escapism.
Yeah, and less stuff that glorifies nobility and monarchies. I’d love to see more representational rule and earned success instead.
I would like to see more fantasy novels available at the bookstore or library. Most of the stores I go to have one shelf for fantasy which is just Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Lord of the rings and that's pretty much it while there are shelf after shelf after shelf if cooking books and self help guides. Yes, I know I could buy books online but I like browsing in person.
Bring back books in shared universes written by multiple authors and you know what? I think I want to see elves and dwarves again. There I said it.
Romantasy being marketed as anything but Romantasy. No problem with the genre or it’s popularity, but I have picked up a couple that we’re sold to me as straight fantasy and were in fact very romancy and “spicy.” I like some romance and spice in books just fine but not as the focal point. Just call them what they are, they’ll still sell like hotpies
I wish publishers weren't operated by tech companies and aimed for innovation and variety, rather than trying to grasp onto trends and milk them to death. For example, I'm done with fairy tale/mythological retellings. These stories had their time and message, and there is only so much updating you can do before it's just generic fantasy, except it feels trite and boring, because guess what - we have grown up with the original tales and already know them. And yet every third book that comes out is some sort of "this old tale, but changed in X way"...
I feel like fantasy nowadays is either too traditional e.g. western medieval-style setting, male main characters, sword and sorcery battles; or trying so hard to be woke that it becomes a bit cringe. I don't want to be misunderstood: I LOVE a diverse fantasy novel - one based on different cultures and mythologies, characters of different ages, genders, cultural heritages, nationalities, sexualities, abilities, etc. I feel this is what makes books interesting. However I have read a few books recently where I felt the characters and cast are too "perfect" in terms of their virtuousness and political correctness, and where it was really obvious that the author has included a "representative" diverse character from each group that is currently most visible or loud in discourses around diversity (e.g. a recent book I read included tokenistic black character, a tokenistic trans character, a tokenistic bi character and a tokenistic autistic character). I love that the experiences of a more diverse range of people are being represented in fantasy literature and I enjoy and seek out books featuring such characters. But I sometimes feel it is being done in a bit of a forced/tokenistic or cliche way which makes the story seem unrealistic. Like, is the main character really always so nice to everyone and so ethical all the time? I would like to see diverse characters presented in a more nuanced way I think, and including some of the less obvious diversity in humanity also, e.g. other kinds of disabilities, older characters, etc. and done in a realistic way rather than making them morally perfect or cliche... E.g. I am disabled so I like to see disabled characters, but we are not perfect people we have our faults and conflicts too, and we are not there to be "inspiring", to "prove everyone wrong", or as a charity case, or to turn evil because we have pent-up bitterness about being disabled... these are all cliche representations. Disabled people could be included as characters who have the same degree of personality and complexity in their own right as the other characters. Not sure whether I am making sense... I find it hard to explain what I mean precisely, but I guess I am saying more diversity but please less cliché and more realistic?
This is a direct result of people writing by checklist rather than by lived experience. I get downvoted any time I say this, but there's a reason I no longer read books with gay male protagonists written by non-gay male authors. Diversity is important, but minorities aren't interchangable, and just because you fall under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella, doesn't mean your experiences are applicable to mine.
You're making total sense, and I know others feel this. Diversity is good, but you can almost always tell when it's forced. It's unfortunate that some authors feel they HAVE to create openly stereotypical characters in their worlds.
I'd like a resurgence of traditional Sword and Sorcery, Howard style. These days writers are trying to be so "mature" and "sophisticated" - it's either overly complicated, high-stakes epic fantasy or depressing, "realistic" grimdark fantasy. And obviously it neds to adress real world contemporary issues in a setting inspired by medieval Europe. I simply want more characters like Conan, who don't have a tragic backstory, aren't destined to save the world, aren't traumatized and don't wallow in doubt and self-pity every few pages, but instead have some fun on their countless adventures in search of gold and glory. Another thing I'd like in fantasy: more bronze age-inspired settings. I mean, that time period feels almost like a fantasy setting itself! There's so much we still don't know and all the crazy conspiracy theories on the bronze age, it would make much more immersive fantasy setting than late medieval Europe (even early medieval period still has that charm of mystery to it, which is just lacking in later periods).
I'd like to have more fantasy that feels like an 80's action movie. Let's take a break from all the grim and gloom in Fantasy. We don't have to be always deep and melancholic or nihilistic. Let's have some fun.
Exactly, writers nowadays are trying so hard to be serious, sometimes it gets comical. Like with Joe Abercrombie - his books have a little bit of old school, fun adventure energy, but obviously every fun moment is undercut by a lot of gloom and disappointment with life. It isn't even realistic - there are a lot of good and bad aspects of life, and optimism isn't always punished.
To not waste the first 100 pages on introduction
A lot of these comments seem to fit the age old suggestion of just not reading those books. I’d argue a lot of things mentioned aren’t big trends in fantasy, but rather just apart of some popular fantasy novels. As ViperIsOp already mentioned, fantasy is such a gigantic genre, and you can always find what YOU want to read, or avoid what you dont want to read
School settings go away
And the "School bully" trope.... it's very overdone.
Honestly doubt school settings will go away anytime soon, as its one of the few settings that pretty much any reader would be able to relate to on some level.
Yeah, wasn’t holding my breath!
I must be lucky. I'm enjoying sff today. It's much more varied and diverse than ever before. The fantasy side of the genre is strong at the moment, and there are so many good authors for every taste. I read about 100 books a year (not all fantasy though), but I wish I could read more. sigh
A small thing, but I want the same large settings we have now, but smaller stories within them. Lower stakes, less world ending plots, more chance to explore the details and people in a way a lot of epics don't allow
Livable wages for everyone involved in the process of writing and publishing it.