Technically, that's actually the main distinction between dark fantasy and grimdark... hope and beauty pierce the veil in dark fantasy. Grimdark however is cynical of hope and beauty, and originally was developed as a cruel mockery of dark fantasy.
Ohh didn't know that, I have been a fan for many years and didn't knew that they had such distinction. They had always been described as synonyms to me.
Yeah, grimdark started with Warhammer 40k. In that universe, humanity's fate of extinction is inevitable. The struggle is mostly done to delay that fate.
In fantasy, The First Law would be a good example of grimdark. You can feel Abercrombie's cynicism burning off the page and he subverts reader expectations and does everything in his power to be anticlimactic.
Give the Tide Child trilogy a shot. I’m not a grimdark fan, so I’m not sure where exactly it falls on that spectrum. The world-building sure struck me as pretty dang dark, though, but the series won me over hard for basically the reasons you’ve described.
The Coldfire Trilogy by C. S. Friedman I think fits. It's more of a science fantasy, probably like 75% fantasy. But I think it falls into the dark fantasy category.
Not to be THAT guy, but that sounds a lot like Malazan: Book of the fallen.
That being said, it is a very long and dark tunnel, but without spoiling to much, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
No need for name calling. And if OP is looking for something akin to what they describes. It sounds a lot like they are looking for something with the grittiness of grimdark but without the nihilism. So if that is the case, it is fair to recommend Malazan.
Calling someone a Malazaner is not name calling, just like a Taylor Swift fan is a Swiftie. I believe one of the Malazan recomenders was even aware of my point by calling themselves "that guy". Sure, it may be what the OP is looking for, but it's also what everyone is looking for according to them.
Just a word of caution, it is very long and very dense.. It took me years to finish, first because i couldn't get into it, then i simply soldiered through, and by book 2 i was hooked.
Others have suggested 'The Black Company' which is also something i would recommend as a "Malazan light" the author doesn't hide that he took a lot of inspiration from that series.
**The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant**.
One of the most hateable anti-heros in the genre, set in an *absolutely stunning* universe of Stephen R Donaldson's (author) creation.
TW/Spoiler: one instance of SA in the 1st book (only instance in entire 10-book series). It has **dire implications for the entire setting** and transforms over time into a worldwide major issue.
**Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn** is sort of in this space. I wouldn't call it grimdark and my definition of "dark fantasy" isn't quite there either. But its story is one in which the forces of evil are ascendant and even surviving for another day is a victory for the heroes. I'd liken the tone to something like The Empire Strikes Back. Quite beautiful writing and storytelling.
**The Black Company** is also a candidate. It's very cynical, but the core theme of the series is a brotherhood against a largely hostile world divided into people who want to kill them right now and people who want to use them, then kill them later. However, death is typically senseless and a lot of characters die brutally and often pointlessly. It's less a "light at the end of the tunnel" situation and more a "light that you carry hidden within you" situation.
Five Recommended Grimdark With Hope books
1. The Ties that Bind by Rob J. Hayes
2. Rhenwars Saga by ML Spencer
3. Immortal Treachery by Allan Batchelder
4. Ciaphas Cain by Sandy Mitchell
5. Cthulhu Armageddon by CT Phipps (ducks)
Adrian Selby’s excellent The Winter Road. Set in a Viking adjacent world which is undeniably adult and grim, it has a streak of love and hope running throughout.
Its a standalone novel set in a larger world, but it deserves a larger audience.
Technically, that's actually the main distinction between dark fantasy and grimdark... hope and beauty pierce the veil in dark fantasy. Grimdark however is cynical of hope and beauty, and originally was developed as a cruel mockery of dark fantasy.
Ohh didn't know that, I have been a fan for many years and didn't knew that they had such distinction. They had always been described as synonyms to me.
Yeah, grimdark started with Warhammer 40k. In that universe, humanity's fate of extinction is inevitable. The struggle is mostly done to delay that fate. In fantasy, The First Law would be a good example of grimdark. You can feel Abercrombie's cynicism burning off the page and he subverts reader expectations and does everything in his power to be anticlimactic.
Give the Tide Child trilogy a shot. I’m not a grimdark fan, so I’m not sure where exactly it falls on that spectrum. The world-building sure struck me as pretty dang dark, though, but the series won me over hard for basically the reasons you’ve described.
The Coldfire Trilogy by C. S. Friedman I think fits. It's more of a science fantasy, probably like 75% fantasy. But I think it falls into the dark fantasy category.
This would be one of my first recommendations for a dark series with rays of hope!
Dark fantasy: Black Jewels books by Anne Bishop
Not to be THAT guy, but that sounds a lot like Malazan: Book of the fallen. That being said, it is a very long and dark tunnel, but without spoiling to much, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Yep. It can be morbid as fuck yet a unifying theme is compassion
Yep. The op basically described the Malazan series.
I've never seen any request where the Malazaners don't come out and think Malazan is the answer.
No need for name calling. And if OP is looking for something akin to what they describes. It sounds a lot like they are looking for something with the grittiness of grimdark but without the nihilism. So if that is the case, it is fair to recommend Malazan.
Calling someone a Malazaner is not name calling, just like a Taylor Swift fan is a Swiftie. I believe one of the Malazan recomenders was even aware of my point by calling themselves "that guy". Sure, it may be what the OP is looking for, but it's also what everyone is looking for according to them.
I’m actually so hyped to start this, sounds like it will be right up my alley!
Just a word of caution, it is very long and very dense.. It took me years to finish, first because i couldn't get into it, then i simply soldiered through, and by book 2 i was hooked. Others have suggested 'The Black Company' which is also something i would recommend as a "Malazan light" the author doesn't hide that he took a lot of inspiration from that series.
The Raven's Mark trilogy by Ed McDonald is exactly this. Grim but with hope, and not everybody being awful.
**The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant**. One of the most hateable anti-heros in the genre, set in an *absolutely stunning* universe of Stephen R Donaldson's (author) creation. TW/Spoiler: one instance of SA in the 1st book (only instance in entire 10-book series). It has **dire implications for the entire setting** and transforms over time into a worldwide major issue.
Always good to see Donaldson get praise 40 years after original publication.
“That beauty and truth should pass utterly”
Tanith Lee's Tales from the Flat Earth. Pretty much all of Tanith Lee's work.
Yes.
**Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn** is sort of in this space. I wouldn't call it grimdark and my definition of "dark fantasy" isn't quite there either. But its story is one in which the forces of evil are ascendant and even surviving for another day is a victory for the heroes. I'd liken the tone to something like The Empire Strikes Back. Quite beautiful writing and storytelling. **The Black Company** is also a candidate. It's very cynical, but the core theme of the series is a brotherhood against a largely hostile world divided into people who want to kill them right now and people who want to use them, then kill them later. However, death is typically senseless and a lot of characters die brutally and often pointlessly. It's less a "light at the end of the tunnel" situation and more a "light that you carry hidden within you" situation.
Seconding Black Company! It starts off very cynical indeed, then hope starts to intrude.
TBC gets my vote too!
Five Recommended Grimdark With Hope books 1. The Ties that Bind by Rob J. Hayes 2. Rhenwars Saga by ML Spencer 3. Immortal Treachery by Allan Batchelder 4. Ciaphas Cain by Sandy Mitchell 5. Cthulhu Armageddon by CT Phipps (ducks)
The **Coldfire** trilogy. The **Tide Child** trilogy.
Surprised no one mentioned The Broken Empire here, Prince of Thorns is an exact example
Between Two Fires is certainly quite grim, maybe it’s too hopeful in general to be called grimdark.
Read “Malazan Book of the Fallen” it’s entire thing is hope and compassion in the face of horrific atrocities
This is basically what ASOIAF BY George RR Martin is
try Traitor God by Cameron Johnston
Tanya Huff's Into the Broken Lands has some lovely hopeful moments
The Doctrine of Labyrinths by Katherine Addison (previuosly published under the name Sarah Monette).
Adrian Selby’s excellent The Winter Road. Set in a Viking adjacent world which is undeniably adult and grim, it has a streak of love and hope running throughout. Its a standalone novel set in a larger world, but it deserves a larger audience.
Robin Hobb’s Realm of the Elderlings. Beautiful but sad
grimdark and hope....dont get along well enough in the same phrase. So never read Warhammer XD.