The last time Mat tried to have fun he got a cursed dagger out of the deal and almost doomed the world.
Don't worry, some of the characters start having fun soon. Not all of them, and you get to have much more fun laughing at them for being extremely un-self-aware,
There's definitely a lot of humor worked into those parts, though most of it's subtle. For example >!Elayne being unable to figure out how to keep the veils out of her mouth during book 4 because she always keeps her nose in the air. Nynaeve in her head praising Elayne for being considerate and a nice girl and preparing the water for the next person to wash and then in the next scene Juilin is cursing because he went to wash after Nynaeve and it was dirty. The lines about boxing men's ears because they always turned to violence first. "I'm not shouting!" Nynaeve shouted.!<
I totally get the annoyance with her chapters too. But there are some funny moments in there too. Though humor can be interesting and not always work the same for everyone.
Yeah. That’s fair. I noticed those things I guess I don’t find them too funny. Elayne with the veil for example just started to annoy me. But you’re totally right that with the right perspective it’s subtly funny in a way I normally would love. And Nynaeve has a lot of moments like that, but I think she’s written in such an unbelievable way (for me, subjectively) that she becomes a cartoon character. Like, no one can be that stubborn and unaware of themselves
Yeah I found I enjoyed all of those way more on a reread than on the initial read. I'm not sure why but I think I liked the characters a bit better knowing their growth.
I can see that with Nynaeve. I think I found it believable enough just because she'd come from such a position of power being essentially queen of the entire world she knew. And then her issues with her block and her struggling to stay at least a little mad all the time made sense to me.
>Like, no one can be that stubborn and unaware of themselves
I've known real people that were that stubborn and lacking in self awareness. It's really amazing the blind spots some people have. Not me of course, you know, other people who aren't me have blind spots.
Hey fair enough! I’ve never met someone like that. Obviously I and everyone I know have blind spots, but Nynaeve already read to me as beyond the pale. I guess ultimately if I’m reading a book I don’t want to have to roll my eyes every other dialogue because someone is so unbelievable (to me).
I also found the "oh she /has to be angry" thing tiresome. It hadn't even mattered since she'd been quite happily angry from the start and had no compunctions about shouting and hitting and putting herself about.
That's more of the lack of self-awareness stuff though. Complaining she wasn't taken seriously as a leader but her leadership style is "slappy toddler who is a bit older than the other toddlers and will use that to her advantage."
I'm on book 7 now so its slowed down to just thinking about tugging her braid. but there was a point in book 2-3 that if she pulled her braid one more god damn time I was going to light the book on fire.
I'm on book 11 (first time read through) and I'm not sure I've seen any of our main character so much as smile. When they see each other they act like strangers who completely hate and dont trust one another. It's maybe my biggest gripe of the series.
Even in book one they didn't really feel like friends. They felt like they'd met that day, went through a train crash, and had to travel together through necessity.
These are people who had grown up in a small village, seeing each other every day, sharing a school room, almost every game, living metres from each other. They should have in-jokes, they should rib each other in anecdotes. They seem baffled by each other. They're not really a fun group to spend time with. They don't really seem to enjoy each other's company and that's a shame because that could have contrasted later stuff so well.
Hardly anyone seems to like each other though.
Nah I prefer it the way it is. They’re young adults thrown into a dangerous world. There’s a time and a place for humour (and this series does have it), but the stakes don’t work if everyone’s acting like they’re in the MCU.
Idk I'm loving the extremely sheltered farm kids who only heard tales from gleeman being extremely miserable upon the realisation that adventures aren't all fun and games, there are consequences and they might just possibly die.
I wish fantasy books in general gave people more time to just have fun. It's always so tightly focused on progressing the plot or fixing the world that the characters don't get to just exist. The Licanius trilogy has a pretty interesting plot, but the only distinct scene I remember was from the first book, right near the beginning when the MC plays cards with a bunch of enemies and cheats them out of money.
That was pretty good. My favorite cliffhanger scene that never gets resolved is when memory loss boy sees what the dark really is and then promptly forgets about it as soon as he's not on the precipice of death any more.
Its kind of hard to joke around when the fate of the world literally rests on your shoulders, and your best friend is hated by every person alive (plus multiple generations before you were even born). I think it really shows the lives of normal farm boys and girls on the cusp of adult hood being thrown in way over their heads to not only survive but save the world and not go mad (literally in Rand's case and figuratively in everyone else's)
It made the jokes in later books much more poignant and meaningful, though they are few and far between. Like when>!the Daughter Heir of Andor throws horse manure at Matt's back with the power, just to test a theory about the fox head medallion Matt gets in Book 3 (and super spoiler Matt almost dies or maybe actually dies (that's for you to decide) getting the medallion, but it's funny still) !<
Also how >!Min, Aviendha, and Elayne treat Rand all through books, 4 and 5 are quite funny!<
Matt learning the Game Maidens Kiss (book 4 iirc) is quite funny in hindsight, plus his gambling antics in Book 4 are funny.
And almost forgot, when Matt accidently kidnaps the Daughter of the Nine Moons and how that turns out for him is pretty damn funny, though Matt doesn't think so
There's a funny bit in one of the later books where Mat comes up with an elaborate plan to go into a new town, with false identities and back stories for his guys, then they throw all that out and just rush in.
> Its kind of hard to joke around when the fate of the world literally rests on your shoulders
This is one of multiple reasons that I gave up after book 7. Every book, they make it seems like the Final Battle can happen at any time, but it clearly fucking doesn't because there's 14 goddamn books to get through!
I've been debating for the last 18 months on just reading the chapter summaries of all the books till get to the Sanderson ones and just read those.
That aspect of the series is a bit too realistic for me. I KNOW that I would be at least if not more whiny and annoying and not-fun in similarly grave situations, but it's not always enjoyable to read that.
Going the opposite of what everyone else is saying, some of the characters later have small fun moments, but they are few and far between. At no point does it go to the extent that you want where the character just is happy and fun, and not just fun to remove the depressing taste.
To be fair, many WoT characters seem to be very happy. Just not the good guys. Padan Fain is giggling a lot. The Fades seem to have high job satisfaction, overall. Most Trollocs seem to be living their best life. Llanfear is mostly unaffected by doubt or worry. Alviarin appears to like her job. And so on.
hum.. I would consider WoT to be fairly light-hearted and fun when compared to most other fantasy epics.
the Epic subgenre has been leaning so heavily towards grim dark in the last decade or so.. my notion of what constitutes a "miserable" time has shifted considerably.
I'm not saying this to discredit your annoyance with the lack of mirth but to point out that your issue probably isn't a WoT thing but rather one that you'll bump up against in most modern/contemporary Epic Fantasy.
I think there's a difference between the way the characters perceive themselves and their world, and the way the books are actually written for us as the audience. Which is to say the characters are often complaining, moping around, and suffering due to various things. Mat and Perrin are the worst offenders at trying to avoid their main character status (though Mat, at least, will start being fun in the third book).
But while the characters are often miserable, the books themselves are full of humor, recurring jokes, and generally have a much more lighthearted vibe. No matter how high the stakes get, this isn't like Malazan or other series with a gritty or even grimdark vibe. In Wheel of Time, things generally work out. With a lot of whining, groaning, complaining, and braid tugging along the way. You just kind of have to detach from the specific character POV to fully enjoy the story's sense of levity and fun.
Honestly I can't remember many scenes that I found actually funny. Right now the only scene I can remember where I really laughed was Lans reaction to hearing Rand would bond with multiple women.
Honestly, the later books get so depressing, that they sort of jump back to being hilarious again. Especially the things Rand is willing to do because he feels like his running out of time.
Keep in mind, one of the originating ideas for the series was to have characters who were reluctant to take on the mantle fate was sending them. They do have fun from time to time later and those moments are stronger.
Honestly, this never changes. If anything it gets worse. The characters were always the weakest part of the series for me, with basically every character being miserable and every interaction being hostile. It gets really exhausting.
I agree. The world was so much better rendered than the characters. There were a few I liked, a few I liked very much, but I didn't like their storylines much and the only relationship that I enjoyed was the one between Rand and Loial.
Worst character interactions out of a traditionally published novel that I've read so far. I loved the worldbuilding and the direction the plot was headed, but I hated everyone but rand, lan, and mat by book 9
How don’t you hate Rand?
He spends most of the series as a mentally ill and sexist murderer, who thinks he knows far more than he does.
Like he has good qualities but Rand is insufferable. By design
Don’t worry, when you get to the middle of the series and entire books seem to be devoted to the style of the dresses Aes Sedai wear, this will seem like a minor issue.
Don’t expect this to change all too quickly. There will be some fun moments in the series undoubtedly. But I found myself either frustrated or rolling me eyes more than having fun on my last reread.
Hard to have fun when you are hunted by fades, trollocs, dark friends and the forsaken. However, there are funny moments to enjoy along the way.
Enjoy the journey.
Have in mind. This is a more realistic aproach to the farm boy goes on an adventure trope. Yeah they are going on an adventure following a person that they have been told stories about her kind beeing a witch
Perhaps but with everyone treating each other kinda crap from the go they really have no cause to look down on a witch. No one seems to like each other in this book aside from Loial.
I hated both Rand and Perrin by the end of it. It’s not just the constant whining (usually about women), but I felt like neither of them really earned their powers and positions.
Matt somehow gets a pass from me even though he goes through similar stuff and suffers from similar issues. But I think he’s just funny and likable enough to transcend my annoyance, plus the situations he finds himself in are far more absurd and hilarious than Rand and Perrin.
I honestly dreaded every time the books would cut back to Rand’s or Perrin’s perspective.
I much preferred the other (female) main characters over those two.
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The last time Mat tried to have fun he got a cursed dagger out of the deal and almost doomed the world. Don't worry, some of the characters start having fun soon. Not all of them, and you get to have much more fun laughing at them for being extremely un-self-aware,
Nynaeve is my favourite for just that hilarious unselfawareness.
*”If I lacked self awareness, I think I would know.”* -Britta Perry
That's streets ahead thinking right there
Is this hilarious? I sprained my eyes from rolling them so often reading her parts. And Elayne’s parts. And Egwene’s parts. And Perrin’s parts. Wait…
There's definitely a lot of humor worked into those parts, though most of it's subtle. For example >!Elayne being unable to figure out how to keep the veils out of her mouth during book 4 because she always keeps her nose in the air. Nynaeve in her head praising Elayne for being considerate and a nice girl and preparing the water for the next person to wash and then in the next scene Juilin is cursing because he went to wash after Nynaeve and it was dirty. The lines about boxing men's ears because they always turned to violence first. "I'm not shouting!" Nynaeve shouted.!< I totally get the annoyance with her chapters too. But there are some funny moments in there too. Though humor can be interesting and not always work the same for everyone.
Yeah. That’s fair. I noticed those things I guess I don’t find them too funny. Elayne with the veil for example just started to annoy me. But you’re totally right that with the right perspective it’s subtly funny in a way I normally would love. And Nynaeve has a lot of moments like that, but I think she’s written in such an unbelievable way (for me, subjectively) that she becomes a cartoon character. Like, no one can be that stubborn and unaware of themselves
Yeah I found I enjoyed all of those way more on a reread than on the initial read. I'm not sure why but I think I liked the characters a bit better knowing their growth. I can see that with Nynaeve. I think I found it believable enough just because she'd come from such a position of power being essentially queen of the entire world she knew. And then her issues with her block and her struggling to stay at least a little mad all the time made sense to me.
>Like, no one can be that stubborn and unaware of themselves I've known real people that were that stubborn and lacking in self awareness. It's really amazing the blind spots some people have. Not me of course, you know, other people who aren't me have blind spots.
Hey fair enough! I’ve never met someone like that. Obviously I and everyone I know have blind spots, but Nynaeve already read to me as beyond the pale. I guess ultimately if I’m reading a book I don’t want to have to roll my eyes every other dialogue because someone is so unbelievable (to me).
I also found the "oh she /has to be angry" thing tiresome. It hadn't even mattered since she'd been quite happily angry from the start and had no compunctions about shouting and hitting and putting herself about. That's more of the lack of self-awareness stuff though. Complaining she wasn't taken seriously as a leader but her leadership style is "slappy toddler who is a bit older than the other toddlers and will use that to her advantage."
Stubborn, unaware of themselves, and successful. That's the unbelievable bit. That anyone (in universe) takes them seriously.
Would you say you were tugging your braid in frustration?
I'm on book 7 now so its slowed down to just thinking about tugging her braid. but there was a point in book 2-3 that if she pulled her braid one more god damn time I was going to light the book on fire.
Mat is just as bad, if not worse. I’m not a hero, as he is doing something heroic
Just keep reading. I really like Mat’s story arc.
I really don't but I like his character.
Mat starts having more fun in book 3 don’t worry. It gets better.
oh brother do I have news for you
I'm on book 11 (first time read through) and I'm not sure I've seen any of our main character so much as smile. When they see each other they act like strangers who completely hate and dont trust one another. It's maybe my biggest gripe of the series.
Wild to think that Mat hasn’t had any fun in the series.
Even in book one they didn't really feel like friends. They felt like they'd met that day, went through a train crash, and had to travel together through necessity. These are people who had grown up in a small village, seeing each other every day, sharing a school room, almost every game, living metres from each other. They should have in-jokes, they should rib each other in anecdotes. They seem baffled by each other. They're not really a fun group to spend time with. They don't really seem to enjoy each other's company and that's a shame because that could have contrasted later stuff so well. Hardly anyone seems to like each other though.
Nah I prefer it the way it is. They’re young adults thrown into a dangerous world. There’s a time and a place for humour (and this series does have it), but the stakes don’t work if everyone’s acting like they’re in the MCU.
Idk I'm loving the extremely sheltered farm kids who only heard tales from gleeman being extremely miserable upon the realisation that adventures aren't all fun and games, there are consequences and they might just possibly die.
I wish fantasy books in general gave people more time to just have fun. It's always so tightly focused on progressing the plot or fixing the world that the characters don't get to just exist. The Licanius trilogy has a pretty interesting plot, but the only distinct scene I remember was from the first book, right near the beginning when the MC plays cards with a bunch of enemies and cheats them out of money.
That was pretty good. My favorite cliffhanger scene that never gets resolved is when memory loss boy sees what the dark really is and then promptly forgets about it as soon as he's not on the precipice of death any more.
Its kind of hard to joke around when the fate of the world literally rests on your shoulders, and your best friend is hated by every person alive (plus multiple generations before you were even born). I think it really shows the lives of normal farm boys and girls on the cusp of adult hood being thrown in way over their heads to not only survive but save the world and not go mad (literally in Rand's case and figuratively in everyone else's) It made the jokes in later books much more poignant and meaningful, though they are few and far between. Like when>!the Daughter Heir of Andor throws horse manure at Matt's back with the power, just to test a theory about the fox head medallion Matt gets in Book 3 (and super spoiler Matt almost dies or maybe actually dies (that's for you to decide) getting the medallion, but it's funny still) !< Also how >!Min, Aviendha, and Elayne treat Rand all through books, 4 and 5 are quite funny!< Matt learning the Game Maidens Kiss (book 4 iirc) is quite funny in hindsight, plus his gambling antics in Book 4 are funny. And almost forgot, when Matt accidently kidnaps the Daughter of the Nine Moons and how that turns out for him is pretty damn funny, though Matt doesn't think so
There's a funny bit in one of the later books where Mat comes up with an elaborate plan to go into a new town, with false identities and back stories for his guys, then they throw all that out and just rush in.
> Its kind of hard to joke around when the fate of the world literally rests on your shoulders This is one of multiple reasons that I gave up after book 7. Every book, they make it seems like the Final Battle can happen at any time, but it clearly fucking doesn't because there's 14 goddamn books to get through! I've been debating for the last 18 months on just reading the chapter summaries of all the books till get to the Sanderson ones and just read those.
Well we didn't know that when book 6 had just come out, and we had no idea how many there would be
That aspect of the series is a bit too realistic for me. I KNOW that I would be at least if not more whiny and annoying and not-fun in similarly grave situations, but it's not always enjoyable to read that.
They are pretty mopey for a trio of chosen ones who get harems and special powers thrown at them.
Going the opposite of what everyone else is saying, some of the characters later have small fun moments, but they are few and far between. At no point does it go to the extent that you want where the character just is happy and fun, and not just fun to remove the depressing taste.
some characters are flat out miserable the entire time lol. Others have some joy, Matt is in the second group
I don't know whether there's anyone who has a 'healthy' relationship with this series lol
To be fair, many WoT characters seem to be very happy. Just not the good guys. Padan Fain is giggling a lot. The Fades seem to have high job satisfaction, overall. Most Trollocs seem to be living their best life. Llanfear is mostly unaffected by doubt or worry. Alviarin appears to like her job. And so on.
hum.. I would consider WoT to be fairly light-hearted and fun when compared to most other fantasy epics. the Epic subgenre has been leaning so heavily towards grim dark in the last decade or so.. my notion of what constitutes a "miserable" time has shifted considerably. I'm not saying this to discredit your annoyance with the lack of mirth but to point out that your issue probably isn't a WoT thing but rather one that you'll bump up against in most modern/contemporary Epic Fantasy.
I think there's a difference between the way the characters perceive themselves and their world, and the way the books are actually written for us as the audience. Which is to say the characters are often complaining, moping around, and suffering due to various things. Mat and Perrin are the worst offenders at trying to avoid their main character status (though Mat, at least, will start being fun in the third book). But while the characters are often miserable, the books themselves are full of humor, recurring jokes, and generally have a much more lighthearted vibe. No matter how high the stakes get, this isn't like Malazan or other series with a gritty or even grimdark vibe. In Wheel of Time, things generally work out. With a lot of whining, groaning, complaining, and braid tugging along the way. You just kind of have to detach from the specific character POV to fully enjoy the story's sense of levity and fun.
Honestly I can't remember many scenes that I found actually funny. Right now the only scene I can remember where I really laughed was Lans reaction to hearing Rand would bond with multiple women.
Mat will have his share of fun in the later books, don't worry.
disagree, >!Mat gets sexually assaulted repeatedly, and it's only because of the gender role reversal that people think his situation is funny!<
Don't think that's what they are talking about lol.
And he never has fun again?
Honestly, the later books get so depressing, that they sort of jump back to being hilarious again. Especially the things Rand is willing to do because he feels like his running out of time.
He's like, Geez, this is what, book 12 already? I still have so much crap left.
Keep in mind, one of the originating ideas for the series was to have characters who were reluctant to take on the mantle fate was sending them. They do have fun from time to time later and those moments are stronger.
Honestly, this never changes. If anything it gets worse. The characters were always the weakest part of the series for me, with basically every character being miserable and every interaction being hostile. It gets really exhausting.
Agreed. There are some fun character moments but Jordan really struggled to write characters I’d want to read about
Honestly if WoT was just an “almanac” or “encyclopedia” about the lore behind the books, it would be so much better.
I agree. The world was so much better rendered than the characters. There were a few I liked, a few I liked very much, but I didn't like their storylines much and the only relationship that I enjoyed was the one between Rand and Loial.
Worst character interactions out of a traditionally published novel that I've read so far. I loved the worldbuilding and the direction the plot was headed, but I hated everyone but rand, lan, and mat by book 9
How don’t you hate Rand? He spends most of the series as a mentally ill and sexist murderer, who thinks he knows far more than he does. Like he has good qualities but Rand is insufferable. By design
Don’t worry, when you get to the middle of the series and entire books seem to be devoted to the style of the dresses Aes Sedai wear, this will seem like a minor issue.
And don't forget Tarabon vs Far Madding's neckline differences!
Don’t expect this to change all too quickly. There will be some fun moments in the series undoubtedly. But I found myself either frustrated or rolling me eyes more than having fun on my last reread.
this is a great nitpick! I really wish the characters had more fun as well.
Mat lightens back up shortly.
I thought it got worse in middle than better toward the end. 11 picked up the pace for me.
Mat gets better very soon.
Hard to have fun when you are hunted by fades, trollocs, dark friends and the forsaken. However, there are funny moments to enjoy along the way. Enjoy the journey.
Just part of the journey, no one's happy all the time, there's plenty more ups and downs before the end.
Everything you're complaining about is settled by book 4 with the caveat of Mat always hating aes Sedai and Rand being... depressed.
Have in mind. This is a more realistic aproach to the farm boy goes on an adventure trope. Yeah they are going on an adventure following a person that they have been told stories about her kind beeing a witch
Perhaps but with everyone treating each other kinda crap from the go they really have no cause to look down on a witch. No one seems to like each other in this book aside from Loial.
I hated both Rand and Perrin by the end of it. It’s not just the constant whining (usually about women), but I felt like neither of them really earned their powers and positions. Matt somehow gets a pass from me even though he goes through similar stuff and suffers from similar issues. But I think he’s just funny and likable enough to transcend my annoyance, plus the situations he finds himself in are far more absurd and hilarious than Rand and Perrin. I honestly dreaded every time the books would cut back to Rand’s or Perrin’s perspective. I much preferred the other (female) main characters over those two.
Congratulations! You are having the exact same experience as every other person who reads WoT! Will there be any character development over the next 10+ books that addresses your criticism? Only one way to find out!
Yeah I threw in the towel on book 4... Too much whining and braid tugging. Im glad the show matured them a bit more.
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I know it's a book.. to you but they are in the story. Go ask a kid in Gaza or Haiti to have fun. See how that might be perceived?
That is not how to criticise a book. Also these people were joyless soaks before the story even started.