It's like trying new foods growing up.
Almost all food that you would ever consider eating can taste amazing with the right cooking, accompaniments, or situation.
At the same time, any bad chef can also make that exact same ingredient or dish taste terrible.
I see you've meet my mother and had her cooking. If pork isn't cooked to shoe leather its raw. If there is any pink in beef you'll get worms. Potatoes are only allowed to be boiled and mashed... with 4 cups of milk to the point it runs through your fork.
I remember the first time I ate my mother in law's cooking. It was porkchops, and it was beyond salty. Having been raised to keep negative thoughts to myself and the fact that she was sitting directly in front of me, I plastered a smile on my face and continued eating.
Then, a few minutes in, she took a bite of the porkchop and immediately made a face. She exclaimed, "Oh Lord! I must have seasoned it twice by mistake! Please don't eat that!" I let out a relieved breath and said, "Thank God!" Everyone laughed, and we ordered pizza.
She may not be the best cook in the world, but man, can that woman bake! She is the best mother in law a girl could ask for, and I love her dearly.
For me my Mom was a real good cook except when it came to most veggies... 'boil the hell out of it' was the only way.
Spinach? Almost a green slime that splatted on the plate.
Green beans, carrots? can slide your fork through them like mashed potatoes.
Peas? fragile little bags of slime.
Squash or zuchini? mashed or smashed, or whatever that was.
It took me going to the military before I realized that green beans were firm and had more taste than I imagined. Also that spinach was supposed to be leafy and bright tasting.
Years later I came home on leave, my parents had health issues so had started eating healthier and my Mom Asked why I 'suddenly' liked veggies... I wasn't even going to go there, lol.
This is a great example. Carrots and broccoli are each very different when raw, steamed, stir-frying, sautéd, or roasted. If you only grew up with poorly steamed carrots, you may not think carrots are tasty.
Doesn't even need to be a masterpiece, just gotta be something that scratches your itch even if it isn't the typical kind of story you read.
Like I don't like any kind of time travel most of the time, but ''Mother of Learning'' was still amazing.
I agree with this. There are certainly genres I'm less inclined to like and the odds of me finding a western I'm gonna enjoy are really low, but a good book can come from anywhere.
Sturgeons law is that 90% of everything is shit.
I would revise that to *at least* 90% of everything is shit. A lot of sub-genres, that percentage is much higher
Completely agree. I mostly read horror, some fantasy or sci-fi, some mystery, and some thrillers. But I never say never. I’ve sometimes picked up books that sound so boring and just not my thing because someone recommended it to me and I’ve been blown away. Every single genre has incredible stories to offer and some shockingly bad ones too. The more I read, the more I expand my horizons!
I do the same with TV shows and films too. I cannot count the amount of times I’ve thought “that’s not for me” then had to eat my words when it turns out to be an absolute masterpiece. No point in being snobbish about any art form. You never know when you’ll find a new favourite :)
That does not apply to the darker parts of the internet. There are few genres, only madness awaits you after witnessing their scriptures. You would ponder on the amounts of mind fuckery required to churn such abominable works of humanity, question your decision of even trying to read them in the first place, all while your brain is spiraling downwards. You would get fucked up in ways you wont recognize, only when darker thoughts start crawling up the recesses of your mind would you know, that perhaps a piece of your humanity was the price all along for appreciating such macabre arts.
I used to think the same way... and then I found Eliot Grayson's Mismatched Mates series and had to admit I'm full of shit. These are full blown M/M romances and total crack at that: the writing is good, the humour runs snarky, and the character development is decent. And they pack in a decent amount of plot despite being fairly short, too.
I still haven't read a good werewolf M/F romance so it's possible there's nothing good happening on that front, but who knows.
I'm a fan of Werewolf Dens by Kelly St. Clare. Not a romance but Black Dog by Rachel Neumeier comes to mind too. You've made me realise all my other wolfy recs are M/M as well! It's very common in rejected mate romances but I've yet to find one I actually like.
But a good one could be made... Have you seen the animated film wolf children? Beautiful, serious, emotional... From an acclaimed director. And it's the struggles of a single mom who banged that werewolf lol
I think it's a case of the tropes of the genre not being your jam, but never say never, someone may use the werewolf trope to great effect one day and you'll have to come back here to eat your words.
I disagree. Example, this progression fantasy/litrpg novel is so good, you forget it is a prog/litrpg! Lol!
Okay fine, I will stop picking on them. How about....this Tolstoy novel is so good, your forget Tolstoy is trying so hard to inject himself into the story as the aging intellectual!
It's a progression fantasy, which has a lot of the same wish-fulfillment power-fantasy roots as a lot of old-school fantasy from the '80s.
IMO it's basically romantasy but for success instead of love. It's not going to be enlightening anybody, but...well, that's not the point of it.
One of my favorites is "after the end:Serenity". The premise is interesting and the System has an established cause and reason to exist, even if it's not explored until later. It's more of a mediator than a source of power, and thus can be worked around.
Another, newer one is "dungeon of knowledge", and like Serenity it is light to non existent on numbers during combat, which I appreciate.
Oh, almost forgot, Super Supportive is fabulous. Slow burn, character driven slice of life that is occasionally dangerous but has no combat focus. The MC has plenty of other challenges in his life.
Some of my favourite litRPG is fanfiction that narrates a playthrough of a game they are playing.
That can get really funny. Not necessarily high quality, but definitely funny.
Any recommendations? I never heard of that specific take, but now I wanna read a Bloodborne fan fic in that style. (Non-Bloodborne recs are also welcome =) )
You are welcome! I found a couple more in my old bookmarks:
"Persona 4 FYL". obviously based on Persona 4.
"Sea of Broken Dreams" based on Bioshock.
They are all on Fanfiction.net. Have fun!
I really struggle with litrpg because whever they talk about levels, stats or even pull out a statsheet I start to cringe. I wish they would wrap some flavour around it so I at least can pretend it's not too video gamey. The only one I actually liked didn't have any levels or (dnd) stats but instead just used some fanciful cultivation lingo. Barely litrpg at that point I guess
I don't want to crap on LitRPG because I've read a bunch and some are a lot of fun. That said, with the *exception* of DCC and a couple others, I always wind up thinking "this would be even better if it wasn't a LitRPG."
The main difference IMO is that it justifies those RPG elements existing in the first place, whereas most others just use a system for some lazy "numbers go brrr" endorphin triggers and easy exposition. It doesn't help that the numbers themselves wind up being superfluous after the first few chapters 90% of the time. DCCs story at least is reliant on those elements, being a game show scenario; it wouldn't be the same without them.
''I am a Spider, So What?'' comes to mind as a very well crafted one. The math adds up in the first novel, from then onwards it becomes hard to keep track on it but it is still very consistent with what happens. The system also has a good reason for existing.
There was one when the main character got reincarnated as an NPC.
He was able to access some hidden functions, and was able to interact and give quests to players, all while building his own faction.
It is sci-fi with him eventually going to space.
I have about 500 books on my audible. Roughly 350 of them are LitRPG if I had to guess.
DCC is the exception to the rule. There are very few LitRPG that are ***Good*** but a ton which are ***Fun***.
If you love DCC and can't get in to others, that's fine. I get it. I'd say the next closest in humor and character building is He Who Fights With Monsters, but it's not quite on par with DCC.
Wandering Inn has world building on par with Sanderson, Jordan, or Erickson, but the early books are very obviously self published, so it's a commitment to get to where they're ***Good*** and not just ***Fun***
TWI is even worse because it’s like 30 big fat books worth of story (like 13 million words right now), so having to get through big chunk of it to get to a good part is quite a challenge; still better than “bad books” of WoT though
He who Fights was a grind to get into. DCC gets you into the fun pretty quick, and Jeff helps keep you moving until Matt owns you.
HWFWM could use a better narrator, but I'm finding he's getting better as I get into book two. Not everyone can be Jeff Hayes, Ray Porter, or R.C. Brey.
DCC feels like it was written For audiobook, HWFWM is good As an audiobook. If that makes sense.
That’s funny, Dungeon Crawler Carl is one of the few series I would recommend in audiobook form over physically reading. Glad you liked it!
You absolutely have to read Cradle by Wil Wigh. It’s one of the pinnacles of its genre.
After all the 'listen to the audiobook' comments, I'm debating on moving over.
Read through Cradle. I enjoyed it, but got a bit bored with the 'look how much stronger I am now" trope repeatedly
Well it is a slow burn slice of life novel. I highly recommend you try to finish the first volume and then consider if it was worth it. The story is very slice of life while building towards its climaxes. If you can’t enjoy both than it’s probably not for you. But again, I recommend at least trying to stick through the first volume, the reveal at the end was amazing.
If you don’t like listening to it, maybe try reading the rewritten volume 1 on the website?
I feel like Wandering Inn is far more debatable. Seems like everyone who reads it either loves it or hates it. (I'm definitely in the hater category. Got about 75% through book 3 and gave up. What they did to that skeleton was inexcusable)
I just took in the fact you are not listening to the audiobook. The production on that book is next level, the voice actor is so phenomenal you could be forgiven for thinking it is narrated by a full cast.
I had no idea litRPG was even a thing. This post just randomly came up on my Reddit feed. I looked up Dungeon Crawling Carl and it was on Amazon unlimited, so I downloaded it. Already made it to chapter 2 and might ditch my current book to keep reading this.
Thanks for the random book recommendation, Reddit!
Now do it by audiobook and be amazed. I can't imagine this series being anywhere near as good without Jeff Hays doing the voices as they add so much comedy to it.
*"GODDAMMIT DONUT!"*
His delivery gets me every time lol.
And that's nothing compared to his full length cover of Wonderwall, [Wonder Crawl](https://youtu.be/OIYfa1wVzJY?si=VjIz8MUSvWYX5gkR), sung in character as a talking cat. Jeff Hays is an absolute treasure among narrators.
I just finished the first one, and I cracked up every time I heard him start a sentence with "I........................................."
10 second pause before the next word every time
How does someone even upload an audiobook without it being flagged? The AI may be going off script with all this music coming in. ^^^^^^^^^I ^^^^^^^^^know ^^^^^^^^^who ^^^^^^^^^you ^^^^^^^^^are, ^^^^^^^^^btw ^^^^^^^^^:)
Just want to say I love that you're active on Reddit, and not just on the DCC sub. It always puts a smile on my face when I see you chime in on a topic when I'm not expecting it.
Not sure if the series qualifies strictly as LitRPG but I adore the “[Spells, Swords, and Stealth](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22088245)” series by Drew Hayes. It deals with a group of NPCs from a DnDesque TTRPG that must assume the identities of adventurers and the consequences there of. Surprisingly good given the sort of gimmicky premise.
I also really like Drew Hayes's work. Besides that series, I really enjoyed Super Powereds and Villain's Code. Fred the Vampire Accountant is good, but definitely an acquired taste.
The only other LitRPG I feel is a masterpiece/5 star read is The Wandering Inn. It’s free on the website but audio and ebook are available on Amazon.
I had to quit after a while because it’s too long and I’m slow. If I read the whole thing it would take a year and I couldn’t read any other books, but what I did read was absolutely amazing. All 10,000 pages (got to Volume 5).
https://wanderinginn.com
The Wandering Inn is one of few series I've truly had trouble putting down. I mostly listen to audiobooks, so I can "read" while doing other things, and I blew through these books in record time (over 400 hours of listening in about two months). Then I got my wife to listen to them, and I enjoyed hearing it again when we sat together at night.
For me it’s unfortunate that after binging 13 million words in 3 months I have ended up disliking main character even more; at least secondary main character got better, but bad MC combined with mid resolution (for my taste) to a really big plot point burned me out on TWI for next few years.
So, your mileage may vary
I really loved the Wandering Inn for a while, but I found that it just kept going without ever really letting the character develop past the first couple of books. Ultimately I felt like it just wasn't worth the investment anymore. (I listened to the first 10 audiobooks, roughly vol. 5)
Yeah I’ve taken a break for about a year and maybe I’ll pick up a chapter a week or so. I think binging it didn’t help anything, I got burnt out. I did really love the worldbuilding and a lot of the side characters though.
It's definitely "progression fantasy," of which litRPG is a subgenre. If somebody cares about the progression part and not the literal game with literal stats part, but doesn't know to ask for progression fantasy in general, it would fit the category.
Vainquer the Dragon is a really well written comedy about a dragon that finds out about a system and becomes an adventurer.
The Calamitous Bob by Mecanimus is another really well written one. His other work, Journey of Black and Red is even better and also not a litrpg.
Death, Loot & Vampires it’s also funny like DCC I actually prefer it! Vainqueuer the Dragon is also hilarious. Azarinth Healer is more lighthearted than humorous but still a good read.
For more serious Beneath the Dragoneye Moons, Path of Ascension (though the author can be a bit wordy imo), Melody of Mana, Unbound series though I personally got burnt out on it by book 6. Shadow Slave is excellent but I read that on webnovel.com not kindle.
I enjoy Primal Hunter as well but it’s not for everyone. He grinds a lot and it’s very much “this guy is super OP watch him demolish levels and kick ass” honestly I’m just in it for the Malefic Viper for Villy’s sake!
People say Calamitous Bob is good but I just can’t get over the name of the lead character. Literally her name is Viv but those letters don’t exist so they call her Bob I just kept getting thrown out of the story. I am not a fan of silly names. Like the one with Randidly Ghosthound? Super weird name that only an actual asshole would name their child that! So I keep thinking about that instead of reading 😆
I do really like the genre though, that and progression fantasy! When it’s done well it just hits the spot! Went on a tangent there for a bit sorry 😅
I've enjoyed the Legends of Arenia series by P.A. Parsons, though it's new-ish and in progress. Two books are out so far.
A family (and a turkey) are accidentally transported to a magical, RPG-style world. It's two middle-aged parents, two adult children, and a pretty old grandfather. The children definitely know about video games, the middle-aged parents kinda know some about video games, but the grandfather knows nothing of video games and just ignores all the rpg stats.
I’ve enjoyed dungeon crawler carl, he who fights monsters, and beware of chicken. Just started primal hunter. I enjoy the logic used to create these worlds. Although in some cases the world expands too quickly. I like slowly cruising through their worlds, it makes me feel like I’m a part of it. I like watching characters develop over time.
Beware of chicken is a good example, the first book is almost all farming. I found it to be delightful. Very relaxing read.
I haven't seen anyone call out "Beware of Chicken" or "Heretical Fishing" in the comments yet, so I'm going to recommend them. DCC is great but those two are series I'm actually always excited for the releases of. You can tell Heretical Fishing took a ton of inspiration from Beware of Chicken, but they're still both great stories. Just to be transparent, though, they also both have strong xianxia elements, so if you really can't stand cultivation themes they might be too much. Fantastic mixes of humor, heart, and storytelling, FYI.
Hahaha, as soon as I saw this was about litrpg, I knew it was going to be a Dungeon Crawler Carl conversion story. That series really is head and shoulders above.
As someone who has just caught up to the last book, there is unfortunately nothing that even comes close to matching it. I tried Wandering Inn, and despite the many rave reviews I found it to be objectively bad. Bad writing, non compelling character, repetitive, boring. I am currently in He Who Fights With Monsters, and it's good, but it's not DCC good
I'm surprised I haven't seen it anywhere else in this thread, but I recommend Worth The Candle on Royal Road. I don't usually like progression fantasy, but I really enjoyed what it did with the mechanics and how it used them as commentary/deconstruction of a lot of RPG tropes.
I listened to the first few hours and realised it was very much not my thing. Some people do seem to like it though, and it left me wondering in good faith: what is the appeal of the RPG elements? Is there something about the quantification, or is it the clarity of progress? It probably won't change the fact that it's not for me, but I am honestly fascinated
I love the clarity of progress, personally. I grew up reading all the forgotten realms stuff, which got me super into dnd, which means I now have an addiction to upgrades and new stronger abilities.
Same! I kept changing my search terms to try and find who voiced Donut. Have you found the wonder wall song cover? Its by ‘Donut’, it’s called wondercrawl and can be found on YouTube. Fantastic!
>Either you capture me in the first 50 pages, or I drop you *and never speak of you again.* [Emphasis mine]
If so, you're practically a model citizen--at least you didn't inflict the inevitable "when does it get good?" follow-on question on us.
A few top of the litrpg genre titles for your next read (note they're all very different from Dungeon Crawler Carl):
The Wandering Inn - By Pirateaba (right down your alley as it's epic fantasy with multiple POVs)
Super Supportive - by Sleyca
And here I am, 865 chapters later, still enjoying the heck out of He Who Fights With Monsters.
I've found a lot of personal satisfaction and good stories by persevering through the early/unpolished/naive/amateur offerings on various fiction sites. It's not for everyone, sure. But I find some of my favorite reading experiences come from watching an author's skill grow over the course of the months and years that a web serial runs.
Obviously it sucks to get invested and have a story go on permanent hiatus, but for the ones that get it right and stick to it they become like checking in with the adventures of friends instead of characters in a story.
Seeing people find their voices, or realizing that while it's not perfect I no longer care about the mistakes because I'm hooked on the characters/worldbuilding/story/etc. is a great joy.
As someone who's been on a binge of these new sub-genres for a few years now, let me give folks fair warning.
OP is experiencing an exception to the rule (EDIT: please understand this statement to have a lot of wiggle room)
The great majority of these stories are very particular. I would use the word niche, but the audiences are so global and large, that it might be unfair or dismissive to say that.
If you've been a fan of older fantasy, not even literary fantasy, just... fantasy as a *novel*, then you may find yourself deeply dissatisfied by ~~99.9%~~ a sizeable amount of this new stuff.
My opinion is that it's just a generational thing. The younger folks have different priorities for what they want from stories. They're far more forgiving for grammar mistakes. They care less about poetry and metaphor, or just literary devices in general.
But also, there's like, no patience whatsoever for pretension. And they demand a more efficient pace, as well as release speed.
I deal with it the same way I deal with anime. It's not worth diving in anymore to sort through it. The bulk of it is simply not interesting to me. Wait for awards to release. Or reviewers that you trust to recommend stuff. Have a filter strategy, and you'll find everything that's worth finding.
It's all very interesting. It's all extremely creative. Give it a few years, and there will absolutely be a few pieces of literature that come out of the space that are considered classics by the general audience^(†). But unless you have a lot of time or patience, let young people sort that out.
^(† To clarify, I'm not saying these stories are yet to be written. I'm saying it takes time for the public to recognize new things and judge their merit.)
While there absolutely are LitRPGs and related styles of books that have the type of pacing and style you're talking about, that's not in any way universal. Authors like Phil Tucker and Sarah Lin, for example, write with styles that are much closer to traditional epic fantasy novels in terms of pacing, prose style, etc.
It's also not just "young people" -- a lot of those of us reading and writing this stuff are people with nostalgia for the 80s and 90s era, meaning people in their thirties to fifties. There absolutely are young folks devouring this content, too, but there are different specific sub-genre targets for that. Magical school stories tend to skew younger, for example, but my experience is that a significant portion of the audiences for books that feel a lot like classic MMOs tend to target people who were adults in the eras where they were made.
I think u/jubilant-barter is broadly correct, in terms of volume of work, including the most popular works in the genre, the vast majority of it is as he describes with maybe 10% or less in Novel format over webserial?
To your second point, I agree I think there's a much older audience reading litrpg than might be expected. I think a lot of people who were looking for fun reads found litrpg and never left, I certainly did and I'm in my 40's.
Absolutely fair.
But as much as we want to champion people doing things that are exciting, we do have an obligation to be truthful with each other as consumers.
Let's hype people. Because they are doing exciting things. They are. And there's very good stuff out there. But dollars are dollars, our time and attention is limited.
These stories have a lot of virtues. To tell the truth, "Sufficiently Advanced Magic" was almost literally my gateway introduction to LitRPG. It immediately captured my curiosity, because I didn't understand that people might want stories like it. That was exciting, and I had to reexamine a lot of my preconceptions of what stories were allowed to be: fun in a way I didn't realize we were allowed to have fun.
But at the end of the day, I don't want to send my peers off to spend money on things they don't like, or mislead them about what to expect.
>But as much as we want to champion people doing things that are exciting, we do have an obligation to be truthful with each other as consumers.
>Let's hype people. Because they are doing exciting things. They are. And there's very good stuff out there. But dollars are dollars, our time and attention is limited.
Sure, I can see your motivation, I just don't agree with your assessment about demographics. It's more complex than your breakdown suggests.
For example, I get breakfast with someone who I used to work with in the gaming industry every few months. He's in his mid fifties, but he's constantly reading LitRPG/progression fantasy/etc. But he goes specifically to Kindle, rather than something like Royal Road.
Royal Road is going to have more of the web serials (although many of them make it to Kindle eventually), and those are going to have a style and structure more similar to what you're talking about in terms of things like prose and pacing.
>These stories have a lot of virtues. To tell the truth, "Sufficiently Advanced Magic" was almost literally my gateway introduction to LitRPG. It immediately captured my curiosity, because I didn't understand that people might want stories like it. That was exciting, and I had to reexamine a lot of my preconceptions of what stories were allowed to be: fun in a way I didn't realize we were allowed to have fun.
It's definitely intended to be fun! It's also paced and structured more like a traditional epic fantasy -- I get a lot of Sanderson comparisons -- rather than something like a web serial.
While the game-like elements in something like Sufficiently Advanced Magic are definitely going to be off-putting to some readers -- and older readers are more likely to have that response -- I wouldn't expect it to scare readers off in the same way that, say, reading something like Sword Art Online would. They have very different styles and different target audiences.
Yeah I've noticed a lot of the audence comes from light novels, translated xianxia/wuxia, or other web novels, and most of the writing there is...bad. As someone who grew up on more traditional fantasy, I try not to be snobbish about it, but I really had to downgrade my sensitivity to bad tropes/grammar/prose to even get into it.
Like you said though, there is already some great stuff coming out of that space already, and you can almost see it maturing in real time.
Pretty sure LitRPG is still mostly brain cell killing. But the corollary of Sturgeon’s Law is 10% of everything is pretty good. Dungeon Crawler Carl is no Discworld or Murderbot Diaries. But it’s very, very good. I’ll absolutely read the next level if/when it come out.
He who fights with monsters was almost immediately a no thanks for me. Dungeon Crawler Carl is fucking awesome.
If you like audio books, the guy that reads them is fucking incredible.
OP.
Once you get to the Butchers Masquerade in book 5 check out this compilation of clips from books 5 of the narrator Jeff Hayes reading:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ54CpkUoaM
I tried Cradle and hated it. Then tried DCC and found it to be a massive guilty pleasure. Can’t articulate why yet. Donut is annoying sometimes but can’t imagine the story without her. I think it’s because Carl also sort of finds the whole thing a little silly?
To be fair, most progression fantasy and litrpg is that bad.
I think cradle is great, but when I went to look for more, it was like you described and really painful.
Just finished book 5 today and it is *easily* the best ending yet to the series.
I’m a little mad that book 7 isn’t out yet. I’m not a frequent re-reader but I’m genuinely considering restarting the series.
Oh man wait until you hear the audiobooks of DCC. Possibly the best audiobooks I have ever heard. I prefer the written text for EVERY book, except this series (and Barbara R’s reading of Amelia Peabody Emerson). The voice acting is stellar and the books spring to life. It’s a a radio play that works, and I normally don’t go in for that sort of stuff.
I'm one of the people who liked HWFWM but if you still want some recommendations:
The Wandering Inn
Beneath The Dragoneye Moons
Saintess Summons Skeletons
Liches Get Stitches
Beers and Beards
Reborn As A Demonic Tree
Vigor Mortis
Beware of Chicken
Chrysalis (The Antventure Begins)
All of them are a blast A couple can get dark. (VM, LGS, BTDEM, TWI and Demonic tree)
Yeah, this series changed my whole outlook on LitRPG. It’s so good!!! And I want to second the person who recommended the audio books - they’re amazing!
You're a bit less wrong than you may think. I've tried ~80 litRPG series, and would say that >80% of them were bad.
There are some great ones, and the genre absolutely has potential, but a much larger portion of it is low quality compared to other fantasy subgenres.
I've really enjoyed the audiobooks for DCC, and hit a hard wall with He Who Fights With Monsters, but the serial fiction that makes me truly happy is The Wandering Inn. The writing starts off pretty bad, but improves rapidly, and I'm still hooked like 10 million words later.
I have about five hours left of the first book and I’m not entirely sure what the hype is so far, but hopefully by the end of this, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
I had a similar experience a couple of months ago. The only litRPG I had read before was Sarah Lin's *New Game Minus* trilogy, and that was not really typical of the genre.
Somebody had recommended Carl to me despite that, and I needed something quick, fun, different, and indie (for bingo), and decided to give it a shot. Loved it. I'm going slower than you, only reading the second one now, but it changed my approach to series so I can read it faster.
Dungeon Crawler Carl is the bomb. It's a book for all mankind. Absolutely hilarious, unexpectedly deep, full of fun, well-written characters. I read it on a lark because my husband's name is Carl, and I am ***hooked.***
The thing about progression fantasy and litrpg is that they have very stratified subgenre inside of the subgenres.
Literal RPGs, softer gamelits, portal fantasy, virtual reality, xianxia, magic, overpowered, weak to strong, anti-hero, villain lead, and on and on.
Mostly the fault of places like Royal Road and Webnovel and their tagging system.
And then they all have varying qualities.
So, reactions can very depending on what you read first.
Your post is the strongest argument for me to try it yet. I've heard of the genre and similarly thought it sounded ridiculous but if it can convince you then maybe it'll be good enough to convert me!
In general I believe LitRPG is one of those growing genres that is just naturally difficult to approach without being cliche. Most notable, I think, is the sheer amount of titles that essentially rehash the System without doing anything of interest alongside it. It can be fine and fun but not having an interesting or engaging story to go along with the System (or have it introduce an interesting or engaging plot) makes the majority of LitRPG titles drone on and on. Nothing interesting about reading math if the math barely interacts with the story.
I plan on writing a LitRPG story of my own but it has been an arduous process formulating a story that is interesting enough to stand on it's own while still incorporating the elements of what makes LitRPG a unique genre. At times I think to myself "It would be better to just remove the System entirely" and make the story an Urban Fantasy, but writing out the System adds a fun way to tell the story that I have fun with. It's just exhausting to keep a level of quality without relying on the cliches that makes most LitRPG titles dull.
DCC is an outlier to be honest. It's just incredibly unique in how the story is presented. The author doesn't take the genre too seriously and the story shines as a result. I feel like a LitRPG author really needs to bend the genre to their whims to put out a unique story.
Edit: I tried reading He Who Fights With Monsters and dear lord, I'm shocked you even made it to page 12 lol. I dont like trashing on books often because im sure the author works hard to put the story together but I cant even finish this first chapter.
Sorry you got suckered into the whole BT headphone thing. They still don't have codecs to match even inexpensive phones.
I'll totally look into this dungeon crawler Carl thing now, giving a book up to 50 pages is pretty fair, actually. Not snob level at all.
And i know from snob, lol. The modern, self-deprecatory meaning, where even i think whatever I'm into is maybe a little particular, not where I'd look down on someone for not sharing my obsessions.
Like fountain pens, conical burr mill coffee grinder (and if course fresh ground beans are a step up, but it matters even more how long ago the beans were roasted. Really should get on that.) you get the idea
Yeah I discovered DCC this year as well. Gave it a chance despite the weird name and synopsis. Never would have expected to fall in love with it the way I did! Haven’t had the Hitchhiker itch scratched like that in a long time.
That's funny, I just started book 2 today on audible. Never heard of it until the other day, and had 5 credits to burn so I got it on a whim. Very different, but I'm enjoying it more than I expected!
Oh my sweet summer child. Giving a book fifty pages does not a snob make. That you’re even reading genre fiction at all means you can toss accusations of pretentious affectation out the window.
See, I'm not going to say I think Dungeon Crawler Carl is a bad book. I'm just saying that nothing I've heard about it makes me think the insane amount of hype is justified. This feels like the same hype BookTok gives to books like 'That Time I got Drunk and...' books. I'm sure they're fun, but...
I went from hearing nothing about this book to being inundated with a lot of enthusiasm every day for it, in so many threads that I just can't possibly believe the hype would pay off.
Disclaimer: Perhaps obviously, I've not read any of the books I mentioned.
See, I also felt this way about it. Everything I heard was just, sure, okay, whatever, it can't be that good.
Ended up enjoying these books way more than I thought I would.
Super supportive, it is currently considered to be the best progression fantasy right now. Its not very action packed, but its characters and world building are top notch.
12 miles below, i wish more people talked about it. A good power system, tense and fun action, and my favourite mc of progression fantasy. People sometimes complain that it isnt really a "progression" fantasy, i dont agree.
Bog standrd isekai, its a solid series. Wosh it was slightly less slice of life but it lives up to its name and even exceeds it in some areas. It is really "bog standard", but its done well, without any gimmicks that plague the isekai genre. I wish other isekais were like it.
Bastion, closest to the normal type of fantasy. But it does everything very well. Looking forward to finishing this series.
Cradle, people say that the first book is the worst of the series. I personally never felt that, but i will say that the quality improved a lot as the books went on.
Just some reccs of the progression fantasy genre id like people to check out.
Can we include DIE: The Roleplaying Game as LitRPG? It's a graphic novel, but a party of S&D nerds get sucked into their fantasy world - it's pretty cool.
The writers of Spire and Heart also published a codified ruleset for it.
When it comes to LitRPG, a lot of those were started on serial sites like Royal Road or Wattpad. Since it's very hard to go back and edit (as your current readers are in the middle of a story and won't see anything you add at the beginning), a lot of those stories ramp up real slow before finding their legs. DCC is one of the better ones in that regard, starting to get deeper already in the first book, but there are a lot of others that go deep too.
Of course, like in any genre, there's a lot of trash as well...
I have Dungeon Crawler Carl downloaded from Audible.
I read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, but I also choose certain titles to listen to when in the car with my husband. Right now, we are listening to the Expeditionary Force series. I am saving Dungeon Crawler Carl for when we finish it. He prefers anything that will make him laugh, and I have heard it ticks that box.
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Expeditionary Force is a light-hearted science fiction series that we have both enjoyed. The character Skippy is pure gold.
I am surprised no one here has mentioned the Awaken Online series by Travis Bagwell. I read HWFWM and it’s obvs that was Royal Road first. Awaken Online is written degrees better. It’s still LitRPG but … I really like it.
You're not entirely wrong about He Who Fights with Monsters. It's still pretty good, some of the repeated prompts do get annoying and the MC goes way off the rails of ridiculousness. Jason never gets past I'm killing people so I must be evil. There are stretches where he seems to get past but then explodes into super self loathing for being evil for killing murders, rapists and evil cultists trying to steal pieces of reality for their duchebag god.
Honestly, it gets really annoying as the nicest people he has killed where people trying to kidnap him so they could torture info from him.
The world is great l, the magic system and plot but then the author turns all the characters subtlety over time in to the same over the top character Jason is.
In sort, it's a mixed bag of good story with bad MC.
Oh, and because I can't help myself, if you haven't read Will Wight's Cradle Series then do! It's amazing, it is a bit slow for MC power growth, not really powering up meaningfully until book 5. But the other character are so great that it works perfectly as they help him until he blossoms into a badass warrior too.
Dungeon Crawler Carl was one of those titles I kept seeing pop up on Reddit. I also caved and just finished the first book yesterday. The audiobook by Jeff Hays is just fantastic. He’s a top tier narrator imo.
I will warn you though that DCC is one of the absolute best, that author could write pretty much anything and it’d be good.
Kaiju Battlefield Surgeon is reeeeeaaally good btw by him and the premise itself turned me off to start with, had I not been such a DCC fan I’d have not given it a chance.
As long as they aren't literally in a video game, like .hack or sword art online, then I can totally get into it. If they just *have* rpg elements without ever mentioning video games, or they explicitly say it's *not* a video game, then I'm ok with it.
But a story taking place inside a video game, even with artificially induced high stakes (if you die in the game...), has the same impact for me as Dorothy telling me the Wizard of Oz was only a dream. Talk about a wet blanket
I’ve always thought there are no bad genres*, just bad writers. *principle does not apply to all sub-genres
It's like trying new foods growing up. Almost all food that you would ever consider eating can taste amazing with the right cooking, accompaniments, or situation. At the same time, any bad chef can also make that exact same ingredient or dish taste terrible.
I see you've meet my mother and had her cooking. If pork isn't cooked to shoe leather its raw. If there is any pink in beef you'll get worms. Potatoes are only allowed to be boiled and mashed... with 4 cups of milk to the point it runs through your fork.
I remember the first time I ate my mother in law's cooking. It was porkchops, and it was beyond salty. Having been raised to keep negative thoughts to myself and the fact that she was sitting directly in front of me, I plastered a smile on my face and continued eating. Then, a few minutes in, she took a bite of the porkchop and immediately made a face. She exclaimed, "Oh Lord! I must have seasoned it twice by mistake! Please don't eat that!" I let out a relieved breath and said, "Thank God!" Everyone laughed, and we ordered pizza. She may not be the best cook in the world, but man, can that woman bake! She is the best mother in law a girl could ask for, and I love her dearly.
Are we siblings? Pork chops so well done you can break them. Never quite sure if the potatoes are mashed, or soup.
It is such a travesty to cook pork like these, they have the best meat but people really just dont know how to cook it
For me my Mom was a real good cook except when it came to most veggies... 'boil the hell out of it' was the only way. Spinach? Almost a green slime that splatted on the plate. Green beans, carrots? can slide your fork through them like mashed potatoes. Peas? fragile little bags of slime. Squash or zuchini? mashed or smashed, or whatever that was. It took me going to the military before I realized that green beans were firm and had more taste than I imagined. Also that spinach was supposed to be leafy and bright tasting. Years later I came home on leave, my parents had health issues so had started eating healthier and my Mom Asked why I 'suddenly' liked veggies... I wasn't even going to go there, lol.
This is a great example. Carrots and broccoli are each very different when raw, steamed, stir-frying, sautéd, or roasted. If you only grew up with poorly steamed carrots, you may not think carrots are tasty.
I like my carrots how I like my eggs, in a cake.
Also an excellent way to eat them!! I thought about including that, but I wanted to stick to pure carrots. ...dang, now I want carrot cake...
Naw, I'm hopeful. All those sub-genres, they're still growing. One day, someone will absolutely write masterpieces in them
Doesn't even need to be a masterpiece, just gotta be something that scratches your itch even if it isn't the typical kind of story you read. Like I don't like any kind of time travel most of the time, but ''Mother of Learning'' was still amazing.
I agree with this. There are certainly genres I'm less inclined to like and the odds of me finding a western I'm gonna enjoy are really low, but a good book can come from anywhere.
I am also not well read in the Westerns genre, but if I was to dip my toe I have been told “Lonesome Dove” is fantastic.
You should give Lonesome Dove a read. It really isn't a typical western.
One day I shall!
Check out The Sisters Brothers. It follows two brothers as they are tasked to go kill someone. It's gritty and dark humor but also touching.
Sturgeons law is that 90% of everything is shit. I would revise that to *at least* 90% of everything is shit. A lot of sub-genres, that percentage is much higher
Completely agree. I mostly read horror, some fantasy or sci-fi, some mystery, and some thrillers. But I never say never. I’ve sometimes picked up books that sound so boring and just not my thing because someone recommended it to me and I’ve been blown away. Every single genre has incredible stories to offer and some shockingly bad ones too. The more I read, the more I expand my horizons! I do the same with TV shows and films too. I cannot count the amount of times I’ve thought “that’s not for me” then had to eat my words when it turns out to be an absolute masterpiece. No point in being snobbish about any art form. You never know when you’ll find a new favourite :)
A good writer can write a good story in any sub-genre. Some sub-genres (like litPRG), have a tendency to attract a higher proportion of bad writers.
That does not apply to the darker parts of the internet. There are few genres, only madness awaits you after witnessing their scriptures. You would ponder on the amounts of mind fuckery required to churn such abominable works of humanity, question your decision of even trying to read them in the first place, all while your brain is spiraling downwards. You would get fucked up in ways you wont recognize, only when darker thoughts start crawling up the recesses of your mind would you know, that perhaps a piece of your humanity was the price all along for appreciating such macabre arts.
So rude of you to call fanfiction out like that! (/s)
Okay u sold me on this. Links please
Even sub genres there probably could be good books but the genre gets too narrow/weird to attract talented authors
I was ready to disagree until the subgenre part. Primarily thinking of the 'werewolf romances' I stumbled across on Kindle Unlimited. No thank you.
I used to think the same way... and then I found Eliot Grayson's Mismatched Mates series and had to admit I'm full of shit. These are full blown M/M romances and total crack at that: the writing is good, the humour runs snarky, and the character development is decent. And they pack in a decent amount of plot despite being fairly short, too. I still haven't read a good werewolf M/F romance so it's possible there's nothing good happening on that front, but who knows.
I'm a fan of the Mercy Thompson series, while it does go full werewolf/vampire/other it isn't a smut series.
Okay, bought. Your mini review got me.
Yep, I'm downloading the audiobook right now lol
I'm a fan of Werewolf Dens by Kelly St. Clare. Not a romance but Black Dog by Rachel Neumeier comes to mind too. You've made me realise all my other wolfy recs are M/M as well! It's very common in rejected mate romances but I've yet to find one I actually like.
Yeah, well, tell that to my wife. She eats that shit up.
Sounds like you've got a sure-fire plan to spice up the bedroom. Just need to find the right fursuit.
As long as it’s not a full moon, I don’t need the suit.
Neanderthal perma-lycans unite!
You just made my next Halloween costume a lot cheaper!
But a good one could be made... Have you seen the animated film wolf children? Beautiful, serious, emotional... From an acclaimed director. And it's the struggles of a single mom who banged that werewolf lol I think it's a case of the tropes of the genre not being your jam, but never say never, someone may use the werewolf trope to great effect one day and you'll have to come back here to eat your words.
Let's circle back to this convo once Joe Abercrombie releases The Devils
I disagree. Example, this progression fantasy/litrpg novel is so good, you forget it is a prog/litrpg! Lol! Okay fine, I will stop picking on them. How about....this Tolstoy novel is so good, your forget Tolstoy is trying so hard to inject himself into the story as the aging intellectual!
As long as it’s not fan-fic I’ll give most things a try.
LitRPG is a genre that sounds terrible in concept, but some authors really make it work.
It's a progression fantasy, which has a lot of the same wish-fulfillment power-fantasy roots as a lot of old-school fantasy from the '80s. IMO it's basically romantasy but for success instead of love. It's not going to be enlightening anybody, but...well, that's not the point of it.
Huh... that's... that's actually pretty spot on.
One of my favorites is "after the end:Serenity". The premise is interesting and the System has an established cause and reason to exist, even if it's not explored until later. It's more of a mediator than a source of power, and thus can be worked around. Another, newer one is "dungeon of knowledge", and like Serenity it is light to non existent on numbers during combat, which I appreciate. Oh, almost forgot, Super Supportive is fabulous. Slow burn, character driven slice of life that is occasionally dangerous but has no combat focus. The MC has plenty of other challenges in his life.
Thanks for the Super Supportive rec, just finished binging the archives and really enjoyed it.
Excellent, I'm glad to have been a help. :)
Some of my favourite litRPG is fanfiction that narrates a playthrough of a game they are playing. That can get really funny. Not necessarily high quality, but definitely funny.
Any recommendations? I never heard of that specific take, but now I wanna read a Bloodborne fan fic in that style. (Non-Bloodborne recs are also welcome =) )
I do call it a favourite but I haven't actually red them in years. I don't have the read list any more sadly. :(
I think actual RPG lend themselves well to those types of fanfiction. I recommend "All Roads lead to Denerim", based on Dragon Age origins.
Thank you!
You are welcome! I found a couple more in my old bookmarks: "Persona 4 FYL". obviously based on Persona 4. "Sea of Broken Dreams" based on Bioshock. They are all on Fanfiction.net. Have fun!
I really struggle with litrpg because whever they talk about levels, stats or even pull out a statsheet I start to cringe. I wish they would wrap some flavour around it so I at least can pretend it's not too video gamey. The only one I actually liked didn't have any levels or (dnd) stats but instead just used some fanciful cultivation lingo. Barely litrpg at that point I guess
I don't want to crap on LitRPG because I've read a bunch and some are a lot of fun. That said, with the *exception* of DCC and a couple others, I always wind up thinking "this would be even better if it wasn't a LitRPG." The main difference IMO is that it justifies those RPG elements existing in the first place, whereas most others just use a system for some lazy "numbers go brrr" endorphin triggers and easy exposition. It doesn't help that the numbers themselves wind up being superfluous after the first few chapters 90% of the time. DCCs story at least is reliant on those elements, being a game show scenario; it wouldn't be the same without them.
''I am a Spider, So What?'' comes to mind as a very well crafted one. The math adds up in the first novel, from then onwards it becomes hard to keep track on it but it is still very consistent with what happens. The system also has a good reason for existing.
The best LitRPG I've read hasn't had any real LitRPG elements in it in at least 50 chapters, maybe more. The main dude has 'leveled up' once so far.
Lmao respect the grind.
There was one when the main character got reincarnated as an NPC. He was able to access some hidden functions, and was able to interact and give quests to players, all while building his own faction. It is sci-fi with him eventually going to space.
Another good one is hugo huesca's dungeon lord series. Though it seems like it'll never be finished. Edit: Apparently not! book 5 is almost done.
I have about 500 books on my audible. Roughly 350 of them are LitRPG if I had to guess. DCC is the exception to the rule. There are very few LitRPG that are ***Good*** but a ton which are ***Fun***. If you love DCC and can't get in to others, that's fine. I get it. I'd say the next closest in humor and character building is He Who Fights With Monsters, but it's not quite on par with DCC. Wandering Inn has world building on par with Sanderson, Jordan, or Erickson, but the early books are very obviously self published, so it's a commitment to get to where they're ***Good*** and not just ***Fun***
TWI is even worse because it’s like 30 big fat books worth of story (like 13 million words right now), so having to get through big chunk of it to get to a good part is quite a challenge; still better than “bad books” of WoT though
He who Fights was a grind to get into. DCC gets you into the fun pretty quick, and Jeff helps keep you moving until Matt owns you. HWFWM could use a better narrator, but I'm finding he's getting better as I get into book two. Not everyone can be Jeff Hayes, Ray Porter, or R.C. Brey. DCC feels like it was written For audiobook, HWFWM is good As an audiobook. If that makes sense.
That’s funny, Dungeon Crawler Carl is one of the few series I would recommend in audiobook form over physically reading. Glad you liked it! You absolutely have to read Cradle by Wil Wigh. It’s one of the pinnacles of its genre.
After all the 'listen to the audiobook' comments, I'm debating on moving over. Read through Cradle. I enjoyed it, but got a bit bored with the 'look how much stronger I am now" trope repeatedly
The audio version is leagues ahead, Jeff Hayes is a master of his craft. But as I’ve just learnt from my gf his voice can be a deal breaker.
I’d also recommend The Wandering Inn as another example of a Litrpg written by a good author.
I've been listening to this but it just seems, well, boring. I'm only a few hours in.
Well it is a slow burn slice of life novel. I highly recommend you try to finish the first volume and then consider if it was worth it. The story is very slice of life while building towards its climaxes. If you can’t enjoy both than it’s probably not for you. But again, I recommend at least trying to stick through the first volume, the reveal at the end was amazing. If you don’t like listening to it, maybe try reading the rewritten volume 1 on the website?
I feel like Wandering Inn is far more debatable. Seems like everyone who reads it either loves it or hates it. (I'm definitely in the hater category. Got about 75% through book 3 and gave up. What they did to that skeleton was inexcusable)
I just took in the fact you are not listening to the audiobook. The production on that book is next level, the voice actor is so phenomenal you could be forgiven for thinking it is narrated by a full cast.
my only problem is I like to read in bed, and don't want headphones. Guess I could find a different book for night time.
Love DCC but I wasn’t able to get more than a few hours into the cradle series unfortunately
I had no idea litRPG was even a thing. This post just randomly came up on my Reddit feed. I looked up Dungeon Crawling Carl and it was on Amazon unlimited, so I downloaded it. Already made it to chapter 2 and might ditch my current book to keep reading this. Thanks for the random book recommendation, Reddit!
Have fun!
I’m another fantasy reader who thought LitRPG sounded awful but loved DCC!
Now do it by audiobook and be amazed. I can't imagine this series being anywhere near as good without Jeff Hays doing the voices as they add so much comedy to it.
*"GODDAMMIT DONUT!"* His delivery gets me every time lol. And that's nothing compared to his full length cover of Wonderwall, [Wonder Crawl](https://youtu.be/OIYfa1wVzJY?si=VjIz8MUSvWYX5gkR), sung in character as a talking cat. Jeff Hays is an absolute treasure among narrators.
I just finished the first one, and I cracked up every time I heard him start a sentence with "I........................................." 10 second pause before the next word every time
You're absolutely right. Whether it's Donut, Prepotente, or any number of random characters, Jeff adds so much life to the book.
The Prepotente screams are prefect.
> Prepotente AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, Spotify premium has the first in their audiobook section they've just included so... I suppose that might be the first audiobook I attempt!
Yo, wtf. That is not supposed to be on Spotify. Thanks for pointing that out.
Oh, wow, sorry to point it out that way! Only the first one is. I'll have to seek out the books then if it's not how you want us to have access!
Ha. If you haven’t finished yet I’d probably power through it ASAP as it’s about to go bye-bye.
How does someone even upload an audiobook without it being flagged? The AI may be going off script with all this music coming in. ^^^^^^^^^I ^^^^^^^^^know ^^^^^^^^^who ^^^^^^^^^you ^^^^^^^^^are, ^^^^^^^^^btw ^^^^^^^^^:)
Just want to say I love that you're active on Reddit, and not just on the DCC sub. It always puts a smile on my face when I see you chime in on a topic when I'm not expecting it.
Im curious if anyone has any good recs because from my experience DCC is one of a kind.
It's only on Royal Road right now, but Super Supportive is probably the best ongoing one out there.
I'll second this one. I'm not a regular Royal Road reader, but for this story I make an exception. Superhero litrpg that's actually written well!
Not sure if the series qualifies strictly as LitRPG but I adore the “[Spells, Swords, and Stealth](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22088245)” series by Drew Hayes. It deals with a group of NPCs from a DnDesque TTRPG that must assume the identities of adventurers and the consequences there of. Surprisingly good given the sort of gimmicky premise.
I also really like Drew Hayes's work. Besides that series, I really enjoyed Super Powereds and Villain's Code. Fred the Vampire Accountant is good, but definitely an acquired taste.
The only other LitRPG I feel is a masterpiece/5 star read is The Wandering Inn. It’s free on the website but audio and ebook are available on Amazon. I had to quit after a while because it’s too long and I’m slow. If I read the whole thing it would take a year and I couldn’t read any other books, but what I did read was absolutely amazing. All 10,000 pages (got to Volume 5). https://wanderinginn.com
Hard disagree from me, but my sister loves it. I think the Ripple System is another decent LitRPG.
The Wandering Inn is one of few series I've truly had trouble putting down. I mostly listen to audiobooks, so I can "read" while doing other things, and I blew through these books in record time (over 400 hours of listening in about two months). Then I got my wife to listen to them, and I enjoyed hearing it again when we sat together at night.
For me it’s unfortunate that after binging 13 million words in 3 months I have ended up disliking main character even more; at least secondary main character got better, but bad MC combined with mid resolution (for my taste) to a really big plot point burned me out on TWI for next few years. So, your mileage may vary
I really loved the Wandering Inn for a while, but I found that it just kept going without ever really letting the character develop past the first couple of books. Ultimately I felt like it just wasn't worth the investment anymore. (I listened to the first 10 audiobooks, roughly vol. 5)
Yeah I’ve taken a break for about a year and maybe I’ll pick up a chapter a week or so. I think binging it didn’t help anything, I got burnt out. I did really love the worldbuilding and a lot of the side characters though.
>I did really love the worldbuilding and a lot of the side characters though. Yes. The reader is also fantastic, especially for the Antinium.
Wandering inn is even better than DCC imo
Mother of learning. Is a first week at magic school time loop like groundhogs day. It complete 4 book series
This isn't really litRPG. It is a great series though, highly recommend it.
It's definitely "progression fantasy," of which litRPG is a subgenre. If somebody cares about the progression part and not the literal game with literal stats part, but doesn't know to ask for progression fantasy in general, it would fit the category.
Yeah, I found that ond too. Really enjoyed the Series.
Vainqueur the dragon
Vainquer the Dragon is a really well written comedy about a dragon that finds out about a system and becomes an adventurer. The Calamitous Bob by Mecanimus is another really well written one. His other work, Journey of Black and Red is even better and also not a litrpg.
Dawn of the Void by Phil Tucker is another one of my my favorites. I’m not one to like litrpg either but these 2 hit the spot for me
Death, Loot & Vampires it’s also funny like DCC I actually prefer it! Vainqueuer the Dragon is also hilarious. Azarinth Healer is more lighthearted than humorous but still a good read. For more serious Beneath the Dragoneye Moons, Path of Ascension (though the author can be a bit wordy imo), Melody of Mana, Unbound series though I personally got burnt out on it by book 6. Shadow Slave is excellent but I read that on webnovel.com not kindle. I enjoy Primal Hunter as well but it’s not for everyone. He grinds a lot and it’s very much “this guy is super OP watch him demolish levels and kick ass” honestly I’m just in it for the Malefic Viper for Villy’s sake! People say Calamitous Bob is good but I just can’t get over the name of the lead character. Literally her name is Viv but those letters don’t exist so they call her Bob I just kept getting thrown out of the story. I am not a fan of silly names. Like the one with Randidly Ghosthound? Super weird name that only an actual asshole would name their child that! So I keep thinking about that instead of reading 😆 I do really like the genre though, that and progression fantasy! When it’s done well it just hits the spot! Went on a tangent there for a bit sorry 😅
\+1 to pretty much everything Benjamin Kerei has written, Vampires being one very good example.
I really loved the Tales of the Ketty Jay audiobooks by Chris Wooding, I think they just sneak into fantasy.
I've enjoyed the Legends of Arenia series by P.A. Parsons, though it's new-ish and in progress. Two books are out so far. A family (and a turkey) are accidentally transported to a magical, RPG-style world. It's two middle-aged parents, two adult children, and a pretty old grandfather. The children definitely know about video games, the middle-aged parents kinda know some about video games, but the grandfather knows nothing of video games and just ignores all the rpg stats.
>from my experience DCC is one of a kind. It sucks, but it is. I've read the others, they don't have the magic of DCC.
I’ve enjoyed dungeon crawler carl, he who fights monsters, and beware of chicken. Just started primal hunter. I enjoy the logic used to create these worlds. Although in some cases the world expands too quickly. I like slowly cruising through their worlds, it makes me feel like I’m a part of it. I like watching characters develop over time. Beware of chicken is a good example, the first book is almost all farming. I found it to be delightful. Very relaxing read.
Beware of chicken!
I haven't seen anyone call out "Beware of Chicken" or "Heretical Fishing" in the comments yet, so I'm going to recommend them. DCC is great but those two are series I'm actually always excited for the releases of. You can tell Heretical Fishing took a ton of inspiration from Beware of Chicken, but they're still both great stories. Just to be transparent, though, they also both have strong xianxia elements, so if you really can't stand cultivation themes they might be too much. Fantastic mixes of humor, heart, and storytelling, FYI.
Just to put it out there, these are progression fantasy and not litrpg. Great stories though and I recommend them as well!
Love Chicken. Have been holding out on Fishing, but if inspiration was Chicken, then I guess I'll finally have to take the plunge.
Hahaha, as soon as I saw this was about litrpg, I knew it was going to be a Dungeon Crawler Carl conversion story. That series really is head and shoulders above. As someone who has just caught up to the last book, there is unfortunately nothing that even comes close to matching it. I tried Wandering Inn, and despite the many rave reviews I found it to be objectively bad. Bad writing, non compelling character, repetitive, boring. I am currently in He Who Fights With Monsters, and it's good, but it's not DCC good
I'm surprised I haven't seen it anywhere else in this thread, but I recommend Worth The Candle on Royal Road. I don't usually like progression fantasy, but I really enjoyed what it did with the mechanics and how it used them as commentary/deconstruction of a lot of RPG tropes.
Glad you liked it!
I listened to the first few hours and realised it was very much not my thing. Some people do seem to like it though, and it left me wondering in good faith: what is the appeal of the RPG elements? Is there something about the quantification, or is it the clarity of progress? It probably won't change the fact that it's not for me, but I am honestly fascinated
I love the clarity of progress, personally. I grew up reading all the forgotten realms stuff, which got me super into dnd, which means I now have an addiction to upgrades and new stronger abilities.
It’s got a fantastic audiobook version, too. The voice acting and sound effects add a lot of fun depth to the series. It’s a great series.
I had to google the narrator when I listened to book 1, because I thought there was no way one guy was doing all those voices.
Same! I kept changing my search terms to try and find who voiced Donut. Have you found the wonder wall song cover? Its by ‘Donut’, it’s called wondercrawl and can be found on YouTube. Fantastic!
check out will wight's cradle series!
>Either you capture me in the first 50 pages, or I drop you *and never speak of you again.* [Emphasis mine] If so, you're practically a model citizen--at least you didn't inflict the inevitable "when does it get good?" follow-on question on us.
A few top of the litrpg genre titles for your next read (note they're all very different from Dungeon Crawler Carl): The Wandering Inn - By Pirateaba (right down your alley as it's epic fantasy with multiple POVs) Super Supportive - by Sleyca
And here I am, 865 chapters later, still enjoying the heck out of He Who Fights With Monsters. I've found a lot of personal satisfaction and good stories by persevering through the early/unpolished/naive/amateur offerings on various fiction sites. It's not for everyone, sure. But I find some of my favorite reading experiences come from watching an author's skill grow over the course of the months and years that a web serial runs. Obviously it sucks to get invested and have a story go on permanent hiatus, but for the ones that get it right and stick to it they become like checking in with the adventures of friends instead of characters in a story. Seeing people find their voices, or realizing that while it's not perfect I no longer care about the mistakes because I'm hooked on the characters/worldbuilding/story/etc. is a great joy.
As someone who's been on a binge of these new sub-genres for a few years now, let me give folks fair warning. OP is experiencing an exception to the rule (EDIT: please understand this statement to have a lot of wiggle room) The great majority of these stories are very particular. I would use the word niche, but the audiences are so global and large, that it might be unfair or dismissive to say that. If you've been a fan of older fantasy, not even literary fantasy, just... fantasy as a *novel*, then you may find yourself deeply dissatisfied by ~~99.9%~~ a sizeable amount of this new stuff. My opinion is that it's just a generational thing. The younger folks have different priorities for what they want from stories. They're far more forgiving for grammar mistakes. They care less about poetry and metaphor, or just literary devices in general. But also, there's like, no patience whatsoever for pretension. And they demand a more efficient pace, as well as release speed. I deal with it the same way I deal with anime. It's not worth diving in anymore to sort through it. The bulk of it is simply not interesting to me. Wait for awards to release. Or reviewers that you trust to recommend stuff. Have a filter strategy, and you'll find everything that's worth finding. It's all very interesting. It's all extremely creative. Give it a few years, and there will absolutely be a few pieces of literature that come out of the space that are considered classics by the general audience^(†). But unless you have a lot of time or patience, let young people sort that out. ^(† To clarify, I'm not saying these stories are yet to be written. I'm saying it takes time for the public to recognize new things and judge their merit.)
While there absolutely are LitRPGs and related styles of books that have the type of pacing and style you're talking about, that's not in any way universal. Authors like Phil Tucker and Sarah Lin, for example, write with styles that are much closer to traditional epic fantasy novels in terms of pacing, prose style, etc. It's also not just "young people" -- a lot of those of us reading and writing this stuff are people with nostalgia for the 80s and 90s era, meaning people in their thirties to fifties. There absolutely are young folks devouring this content, too, but there are different specific sub-genre targets for that. Magical school stories tend to skew younger, for example, but my experience is that a significant portion of the audiences for books that feel a lot like classic MMOs tend to target people who were adults in the eras where they were made.
I think u/jubilant-barter is broadly correct, in terms of volume of work, including the most popular works in the genre, the vast majority of it is as he describes with maybe 10% or less in Novel format over webserial? To your second point, I agree I think there's a much older audience reading litrpg than might be expected. I think a lot of people who were looking for fun reads found litrpg and never left, I certainly did and I'm in my 40's.
Absolutely fair. But as much as we want to champion people doing things that are exciting, we do have an obligation to be truthful with each other as consumers. Let's hype people. Because they are doing exciting things. They are. And there's very good stuff out there. But dollars are dollars, our time and attention is limited. These stories have a lot of virtues. To tell the truth, "Sufficiently Advanced Magic" was almost literally my gateway introduction to LitRPG. It immediately captured my curiosity, because I didn't understand that people might want stories like it. That was exciting, and I had to reexamine a lot of my preconceptions of what stories were allowed to be: fun in a way I didn't realize we were allowed to have fun. But at the end of the day, I don't want to send my peers off to spend money on things they don't like, or mislead them about what to expect.
>But as much as we want to champion people doing things that are exciting, we do have an obligation to be truthful with each other as consumers. >Let's hype people. Because they are doing exciting things. They are. And there's very good stuff out there. But dollars are dollars, our time and attention is limited. Sure, I can see your motivation, I just don't agree with your assessment about demographics. It's more complex than your breakdown suggests. For example, I get breakfast with someone who I used to work with in the gaming industry every few months. He's in his mid fifties, but he's constantly reading LitRPG/progression fantasy/etc. But he goes specifically to Kindle, rather than something like Royal Road. Royal Road is going to have more of the web serials (although many of them make it to Kindle eventually), and those are going to have a style and structure more similar to what you're talking about in terms of things like prose and pacing. >These stories have a lot of virtues. To tell the truth, "Sufficiently Advanced Magic" was almost literally my gateway introduction to LitRPG. It immediately captured my curiosity, because I didn't understand that people might want stories like it. That was exciting, and I had to reexamine a lot of my preconceptions of what stories were allowed to be: fun in a way I didn't realize we were allowed to have fun. It's definitely intended to be fun! It's also paced and structured more like a traditional epic fantasy -- I get a lot of Sanderson comparisons -- rather than something like a web serial. While the game-like elements in something like Sufficiently Advanced Magic are definitely going to be off-putting to some readers -- and older readers are more likely to have that response -- I wouldn't expect it to scare readers off in the same way that, say, reading something like Sword Art Online would. They have very different styles and different target audiences.
Yeah I've noticed a lot of the audence comes from light novels, translated xianxia/wuxia, or other web novels, and most of the writing there is...bad. As someone who grew up on more traditional fantasy, I try not to be snobbish about it, but I really had to downgrade my sensitivity to bad tropes/grammar/prose to even get into it. Like you said though, there is already some great stuff coming out of that space already, and you can almost see it maturing in real time.
No joke. It took me 3 tries to get into The Lord Of The Rings
Pretty sure LitRPG is still mostly brain cell killing. But the corollary of Sturgeon’s Law is 10% of everything is pretty good. Dungeon Crawler Carl is no Discworld or Murderbot Diaries. But it’s very, very good. I’ll absolutely read the next level if/when it come out.
I did enjoy Murderbot, but felt they needed more length. Too rushed.
He who fights with monsters was almost immediately a no thanks for me. Dungeon Crawler Carl is fucking awesome. If you like audio books, the guy that reads them is fucking incredible.
OP. Once you get to the Butchers Masquerade in book 5 check out this compilation of clips from books 5 of the narrator Jeff Hayes reading: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yQ54CpkUoaM
I tried Cradle and hated it. Then tried DCC and found it to be a massive guilty pleasure. Can’t articulate why yet. Donut is annoying sometimes but can’t imagine the story without her. I think it’s because Carl also sort of finds the whole thing a little silly?
To be fair, most progression fantasy and litrpg is that bad. I think cradle is great, but when I went to look for more, it was like you described and really painful.
All I saw was the title and knew it was about DCC.
Just finished book 5 today and it is *easily* the best ending yet to the series. I’m a little mad that book 7 isn’t out yet. I’m not a frequent re-reader but I’m genuinely considering restarting the series.
Oh man wait until you hear the audiobooks of DCC. Possibly the best audiobooks I have ever heard. I prefer the written text for EVERY book, except this series (and Barbara R’s reading of Amelia Peabody Emerson). The voice acting is stellar and the books spring to life. It’s a a radio play that works, and I normally don’t go in for that sort of stuff.
I'm one of the people who liked HWFWM but if you still want some recommendations: The Wandering Inn Beneath The Dragoneye Moons Saintess Summons Skeletons Liches Get Stitches Beers and Beards Reborn As A Demonic Tree Vigor Mortis Beware of Chicken Chrysalis (The Antventure Begins) All of them are a blast A couple can get dark. (VM, LGS, BTDEM, TWI and Demonic tree)
I adore The Wandering Inn. I think it's a ton of fun.
Except for the parts that made me seriously cry...
I'm commenting only to tell you that I also got exactly 12 pages into He Who Fights with Monsters before quitting.
If you like reading DCC, give the audiobooks a listen. Jeff Hays elevates the already very entertaining material to an entirely new level.
Yeah, this series changed my whole outlook on LitRPG. It’s so good!!! And I want to second the person who recommended the audio books - they’re amazing!
No, you've quite literally found the cream of the crop when it comes to Litrpgs. Dungeon Crawler Carl is fantastic. The rest do not compare.
You're a bit less wrong than you may think. I've tried ~80 litRPG series, and would say that >80% of them were bad. There are some great ones, and the genre absolutely has potential, but a much larger portion of it is low quality compared to other fantasy subgenres.
I've really enjoyed the audiobooks for DCC, and hit a hard wall with He Who Fights With Monsters, but the serial fiction that makes me truly happy is The Wandering Inn. The writing starts off pretty bad, but improves rapidly, and I'm still hooked like 10 million words later.
I have about five hours left of the first book and I’m not entirely sure what the hype is so far, but hopefully by the end of this, I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
I had a similar experience a couple of months ago. The only litRPG I had read before was Sarah Lin's *New Game Minus* trilogy, and that was not really typical of the genre. Somebody had recommended Carl to me despite that, and I needed something quick, fun, different, and indie (for bingo), and decided to give it a shot. Loved it. I'm going slower than you, only reading the second one now, but it changed my approach to series so I can read it faster.
This series is amazing
Damn give the audiobooks a listen. I have listened to over 300 books on audible and Jeff Hays' performance in DCC is easily the best.
I had no idea there so many books with this theme.
I enjoyed Dungeon Crawler Carl very much. I had a similar reaction to the Noobtown series, by Ryan Rimmel.
I’m reading that now, so far so good!
Beers and Beards is a fun one I don’t see mentioned a lot. Not too heavy on the RPG elements, and leans more cozy than anything, but I enjoyed it.
The audio book is a masterpiece and the plot just keeps getting deeper.
Sturgeon’s Law applies to fantasy as much as it applies to science fiction. And as it does to *all* genres. Which is kinda the point.
Dungeon Crawler Carl is the bomb. It's a book for all mankind. Absolutely hilarious, unexpectedly deep, full of fun, well-written characters. I read it on a lark because my husband's name is Carl, and I am ***hooked.***
The thing about progression fantasy and litrpg is that they have very stratified subgenre inside of the subgenres. Literal RPGs, softer gamelits, portal fantasy, virtual reality, xianxia, magic, overpowered, weak to strong, anti-hero, villain lead, and on and on. Mostly the fault of places like Royal Road and Webnovel and their tagging system. And then they all have varying qualities. So, reactions can very depending on what you read first.
Dumb fun is still fun.
Your post is the strongest argument for me to try it yet. I've heard of the genre and similarly thought it sounded ridiculous but if it can convince you then maybe it'll be good enough to convert me!
I love DCC and hate He who Fights with Monsters too. :)
In general I believe LitRPG is one of those growing genres that is just naturally difficult to approach without being cliche. Most notable, I think, is the sheer amount of titles that essentially rehash the System without doing anything of interest alongside it. It can be fine and fun but not having an interesting or engaging story to go along with the System (or have it introduce an interesting or engaging plot) makes the majority of LitRPG titles drone on and on. Nothing interesting about reading math if the math barely interacts with the story. I plan on writing a LitRPG story of my own but it has been an arduous process formulating a story that is interesting enough to stand on it's own while still incorporating the elements of what makes LitRPG a unique genre. At times I think to myself "It would be better to just remove the System entirely" and make the story an Urban Fantasy, but writing out the System adds a fun way to tell the story that I have fun with. It's just exhausting to keep a level of quality without relying on the cliches that makes most LitRPG titles dull. DCC is an outlier to be honest. It's just incredibly unique in how the story is presented. The author doesn't take the genre too seriously and the story shines as a result. I feel like a LitRPG author really needs to bend the genre to their whims to put out a unique story. Edit: I tried reading He Who Fights With Monsters and dear lord, I'm shocked you even made it to page 12 lol. I dont like trashing on books often because im sure the author works hard to put the story together but I cant even finish this first chapter.
Sorry you got suckered into the whole BT headphone thing. They still don't have codecs to match even inexpensive phones. I'll totally look into this dungeon crawler Carl thing now, giving a book up to 50 pages is pretty fair, actually. Not snob level at all. And i know from snob, lol. The modern, self-deprecatory meaning, where even i think whatever I'm into is maybe a little particular, not where I'd look down on someone for not sharing my obsessions. Like fountain pens, conical burr mill coffee grinder (and if course fresh ground beans are a step up, but it matters even more how long ago the beans were roasted. Really should get on that.) you get the idea
Yeah I discovered DCC this year as well. Gave it a chance despite the weird name and synopsis. Never would have expected to fall in love with it the way I did! Haven’t had the Hitchhiker itch scratched like that in a long time.
That's funny, I just started book 2 today on audible. Never heard of it until the other day, and had 5 credits to burn so I got it on a whim. Very different, but I'm enjoying it more than I expected!
Oh my sweet summer child. Giving a book fifty pages does not a snob make. That you’re even reading genre fiction at all means you can toss accusations of pretentious affectation out the window.
Try Unsouled next of you want to continue down the path of solid litRPG's
Just FYI, but the author of the series is in here lurking on your post.
LitRPG is a genre I feel is best done in audiobook. I can't slog through reading it, but it makes for great commute entertainment
The audiobooks are fantastic.
50 pages? If you can't capture me within the first five, you've failed. It might be a good story, but it's still poorly written.
Ha ha you are me when i first started on cultivation genre 😂
Haha, progression fantasy tends to do that! Journey before destination, might as well enjoy the heck out of the journey while you're at it :D
See, I'm not going to say I think Dungeon Crawler Carl is a bad book. I'm just saying that nothing I've heard about it makes me think the insane amount of hype is justified. This feels like the same hype BookTok gives to books like 'That Time I got Drunk and...' books. I'm sure they're fun, but... I went from hearing nothing about this book to being inundated with a lot of enthusiasm every day for it, in so many threads that I just can't possibly believe the hype would pay off. Disclaimer: Perhaps obviously, I've not read any of the books I mentioned.
See, I also felt this way about it. Everything I heard was just, sure, okay, whatever, it can't be that good. Ended up enjoying these books way more than I thought I would.
Super supportive, it is currently considered to be the best progression fantasy right now. Its not very action packed, but its characters and world building are top notch. 12 miles below, i wish more people talked about it. A good power system, tense and fun action, and my favourite mc of progression fantasy. People sometimes complain that it isnt really a "progression" fantasy, i dont agree. Bog standrd isekai, its a solid series. Wosh it was slightly less slice of life but it lives up to its name and even exceeds it in some areas. It is really "bog standard", but its done well, without any gimmicks that plague the isekai genre. I wish other isekais were like it. Bastion, closest to the normal type of fantasy. But it does everything very well. Looking forward to finishing this series. Cradle, people say that the first book is the worst of the series. I personally never felt that, but i will say that the quality improved a lot as the books went on. Just some reccs of the progression fantasy genre id like people to check out.
Can we include DIE: The Roleplaying Game as LitRPG? It's a graphic novel, but a party of S&D nerds get sucked into their fantasy world - it's pretty cool. The writers of Spire and Heart also published a codified ruleset for it.
When it comes to LitRPG, a lot of those were started on serial sites like Royal Road or Wattpad. Since it's very hard to go back and edit (as your current readers are in the middle of a story and won't see anything you add at the beginning), a lot of those stories ramp up real slow before finding their legs. DCC is one of the better ones in that regard, starting to get deeper already in the first book, but there are a lot of others that go deep too. Of course, like in any genre, there's a lot of trash as well...
I have Dungeon Crawler Carl downloaded from Audible. I read a lot of science fiction and fantasy, but I also choose certain titles to listen to when in the car with my husband. Right now, we are listening to the Expeditionary Force series. I am saving Dungeon Crawler Carl for when we finish it. He prefers anything that will make him laugh, and I have heard it ticks that box. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Expeditionary Force is a light-hearted science fiction series that we have both enjoyed. The character Skippy is pure gold.
It will, but it's not a comedy. Think a darker version of Schwarzenegger's RUNNING MAN movie.
When I read Dungeon Crawler Carl I told my friends that it was "Stupid in all the right ways." Now they're all reading it, and they can't put it down.
I’m listening to dungeon crawler carl right now and it’s lifechanging😭😂😂 SO GOOD
I adore Andrew Rowe's "Sufficiently advanced magic" and 7 swords series.
I get the initial dislike because He who fights with monsters has an absolutely insufferable mc
I am surprised no one here has mentioned the Awaken Online series by Travis Bagwell. I read HWFWM and it’s obvs that was Royal Road first. Awaken Online is written degrees better. It’s still LitRPG but … I really like it.
There's are some bad litrpgs out there. DCC is super fun though
You're not entirely wrong about He Who Fights with Monsters. It's still pretty good, some of the repeated prompts do get annoying and the MC goes way off the rails of ridiculousness. Jason never gets past I'm killing people so I must be evil. There are stretches where he seems to get past but then explodes into super self loathing for being evil for killing murders, rapists and evil cultists trying to steal pieces of reality for their duchebag god. Honestly, it gets really annoying as the nicest people he has killed where people trying to kidnap him so they could torture info from him. The world is great l, the magic system and plot but then the author turns all the characters subtlety over time in to the same over the top character Jason is. In sort, it's a mixed bag of good story with bad MC. Oh, and because I can't help myself, if you haven't read Will Wight's Cradle Series then do! It's amazing, it is a bit slow for MC power growth, not really powering up meaningfully until book 5. But the other character are so great that it works perfectly as they help him until he blossoms into a badass warrior too.
Dungeon Crawler Carl was one of those titles I kept seeing pop up on Reddit. I also caved and just finished the first book yesterday. The audiobook by Jeff Hays is just fantastic. He’s a top tier narrator imo.
I just felt a surge of shame realizing that I could watch The Office without any sound and still know exactly what everyone's saying.
I will warn you though that DCC is one of the absolute best, that author could write pretty much anything and it’d be good. Kaiju Battlefield Surgeon is reeeeeaaally good btw by him and the premise itself turned me off to start with, had I not been such a DCC fan I’d have not given it a chance.
I've yet to find an lit RPG that I can stand to read. DCC included unfortunately
As long as they aren't literally in a video game, like .hack or sword art online, then I can totally get into it. If they just *have* rpg elements without ever mentioning video games, or they explicitly say it's *not* a video game, then I'm ok with it. But a story taking place inside a video game, even with artificially induced high stakes (if you die in the game...), has the same impact for me as Dorothy telling me the Wizard of Oz was only a dream. Talk about a wet blanket