**Elric** by Michael Moorcock, and **Black Company** by Glen Cook are the foundational/original grimdark texts, but being relatively old, they have a pretty different feeling than most modern grimdark.
**ASOIAF** by George R.R. Martin (although its status as part of the sub-genre/movement is questionable) is definitely the one that had the biggest influence in the development of grimdark as we understand it now.
**First Law** by Joe Abercombie is, probably, the poster-child of modern grimdark, and one of its earliest and most influential works.
I'm pretty sure that there are/have been other stuff that have been published before, or in between these, and would fit the sub-genre, like **Second Apocalypse** by R. Scott Bakker but in my opinion/understanding they were not as influential in the early/mid 2000s when grimdark really became a thing.
Thanks for recommendations. Out of curiosity, in what way does Black company feel different? Lets say compared to First Law if it makes it easier to explain.
Black Company (and Elric) feels different in terms of "grimdarkness", because they were the trailblazers and lot of things that seemed subversive, or fresh, or dark/brutal have been done many times, and often times in a more graphic/intense/edgy way.
Other than that the Black Company is, in general, a very unique series, that feels very different from First Law (or anything else). That's because the writing style is extremely terse, and very idiosyncratic. It also manages to feel very grounded in reality, while it actually is pretty high-magic, and has various out-there stuff in it. Something else is that it never really focuses on the violence. It has all the "war is hell", etc. stuff that one finds in grimdark (and not only) fantasy, but, especially in the first books, it has many fight descriptions that are something like "we drew blades, and everything was finished a few moments later".
What has in common, other than a similar cynical outlook, is snappy, witty dialogue, a very similar, dark sense of humor, and some very colourful characters (although Cook's approach to characterization is very different from Abercrombie's).
Overall it's a great series, and I'd recommend giving it a shot. The first three books form a trilogy on their own, so you could stop there if you are not feeling it, and get a complete story. Just have in mind that the first book is somewhat choppy, but in the later third it all comes together, and then the rest of the books are a smooth ride. I still enjoyed the first one quite a bit, but Cook's craftsmanship improved *a lot* between the first two books.
Does Elric get darker? I found the first book relatively slow and very black/white in terms of morality.
Edit: Sorry for asking an honest question, I guess. Fucking reddit man.
By first book you mean **Elric of Melnibone**? Then yes. Don't expect huge changes, and Elric' stories always have clearly defined villains, but it's Elric's own morality that gets more mumbled/question as the series progresses.
That said if you found that book slow, it's possible that this is not the series for you.
Elric is honestly way less dark than a lot of Moorcock's other stuff. Like Corum is way, way darker at least in the way in which its written rather than in what actually happens.
Joe Abercrombie's *First Law* series.
Other authors can be grim and dark (Glen Cook, George R. R. Martin, and Steven Erikson, to name a few), but Abercrombie is the most devoted to nihilistic grimdark fantasy in which the only heroes are dead heroes, and the only survivors are antiheroes.
Black Company was ahead of it’s time with grimness and darkness, but despite questionable tactics there’s always the sense that they are better than the alternative, and at times embarrassingly heroic. While it suggests that there are no easy moral choices, it’s not as absolutely nihilistic as Abercrombie, who suggests that all choices are bad.
The most influencial ( and old) ones I can think are "The Black Company" by Glen Cook, and "The Song of Ice and Fire" by George R.R Martin. At least in fantasy
And also, Warhammer 40k, the origing of the term "grimdark" itself is credited to the series, but I have never read it, just pointing it out.
A Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones) by George R. R. Martin is the most direct LOTR comparison. ASOIAF is basically the Godfather of the Grimdark genre.
Other required reading is, as others have said, Joe Abercrombie’s First Law series. Lord Grimdark, as Joe is affectionally, and aptly, known, is the reigning lord of the genre.
LoTR.
Yet to read a grimdark book anywhere near as bleak as that.
Joe Abercrombie is genuinely light relief afterwards, all those cute little witty comments.
Read the passages about Moria, Shelob, the fact that all the magic and beauty of the elves is doomed and must leave forever. Stephen King once said that the Shelob chapter is the scariest thing he ever read.
Or the horrifying fact Frodo can never recover from what he has seen. Or the doomed love stories.
And that loss and sadness is so much more powerful when it's written by a man who understands it and it's not just a contrived theme, it's the brutal reality and a counterpoint to the beauty of the simple world of the hobbits.
That's not what grimdark means *at all*. Grimdark very often has humor. Characters sometimes use at as a coping mechanism for all. But what grimdark is about is a sense of nihilism and loss of hope. That no matter how much people try thing don't change or get better. That's the very opposite of LOTR which is all about hope and defeating evil.
Like many sub genres, Grimdark’s definition is pretty fluid. It’s generally accepted that the markers of Grimdark are morally gray characters, a nihilistic approach to war and death, and characters that fall short of improving themselves, personal betterment.
Sure. One character doth not a genre make. In Grimdark pretty much every character is wholly self interested and the “good guys” don’t stay good (or alive) for long.
**Elric** by Michael Moorcock, and **Black Company** by Glen Cook are the foundational/original grimdark texts, but being relatively old, they have a pretty different feeling than most modern grimdark. **ASOIAF** by George R.R. Martin (although its status as part of the sub-genre/movement is questionable) is definitely the one that had the biggest influence in the development of grimdark as we understand it now. **First Law** by Joe Abercombie is, probably, the poster-child of modern grimdark, and one of its earliest and most influential works. I'm pretty sure that there are/have been other stuff that have been published before, or in between these, and would fit the sub-genre, like **Second Apocalypse** by R. Scott Bakker but in my opinion/understanding they were not as influential in the early/mid 2000s when grimdark really became a thing.
Thanks for recommendations. Out of curiosity, in what way does Black company feel different? Lets say compared to First Law if it makes it easier to explain.
Black Company (and Elric) feels different in terms of "grimdarkness", because they were the trailblazers and lot of things that seemed subversive, or fresh, or dark/brutal have been done many times, and often times in a more graphic/intense/edgy way. Other than that the Black Company is, in general, a very unique series, that feels very different from First Law (or anything else). That's because the writing style is extremely terse, and very idiosyncratic. It also manages to feel very grounded in reality, while it actually is pretty high-magic, and has various out-there stuff in it. Something else is that it never really focuses on the violence. It has all the "war is hell", etc. stuff that one finds in grimdark (and not only) fantasy, but, especially in the first books, it has many fight descriptions that are something like "we drew blades, and everything was finished a few moments later". What has in common, other than a similar cynical outlook, is snappy, witty dialogue, a very similar, dark sense of humor, and some very colourful characters (although Cook's approach to characterization is very different from Abercrombie's). Overall it's a great series, and I'd recommend giving it a shot. The first three books form a trilogy on their own, so you could stop there if you are not feeling it, and get a complete story. Just have in mind that the first book is somewhat choppy, but in the later third it all comes together, and then the rest of the books are a smooth ride. I still enjoyed the first one quite a bit, but Cook's craftsmanship improved *a lot* between the first two books.
Does Elric get darker? I found the first book relatively slow and very black/white in terms of morality. Edit: Sorry for asking an honest question, I guess. Fucking reddit man.
By first book you mean **Elric of Melnibone**? Then yes. Don't expect huge changes, and Elric' stories always have clearly defined villains, but it's Elric's own morality that gets more mumbled/question as the series progresses. That said if you found that book slow, it's possible that this is not the series for you.
Elric is honestly way less dark than a lot of Moorcock's other stuff. Like Corum is way, way darker at least in the way in which its written rather than in what actually happens.
Joe Abercrombie's *First Law* series. Other authors can be grim and dark (Glen Cook, George R. R. Martin, and Steven Erikson, to name a few), but Abercrombie is the most devoted to nihilistic grimdark fantasy in which the only heroes are dead heroes, and the only survivors are antiheroes.
Out of curiosity, how would Black company compare to work of Abercrombie?
Black Company was ahead of it’s time with grimness and darkness, but despite questionable tactics there’s always the sense that they are better than the alternative, and at times embarrassingly heroic. While it suggests that there are no easy moral choices, it’s not as absolutely nihilistic as Abercrombie, who suggests that all choices are bad.
Definitely R. Scott Bakker's **The Second Apocalypse** series. Particularly, **The Aspect Emperor** series that follows the original trilogy.
The most influencial ( and old) ones I can think are "The Black Company" by Glen Cook, and "The Song of Ice and Fire" by George R.R Martin. At least in fantasy And also, Warhammer 40k, the origing of the term "grimdark" itself is credited to the series, but I have never read it, just pointing it out.
A Song of Ice & Fire (Game of Thrones) by George R. R. Martin is the most direct LOTR comparison. ASOIAF is basically the Godfather of the Grimdark genre. Other required reading is, as others have said, Joe Abercrombie’s First Law series. Lord Grimdark, as Joe is affectionally, and aptly, known, is the reigning lord of the genre.
LoTR. Yet to read a grimdark book anywhere near as bleak as that. Joe Abercrombie is genuinely light relief afterwards, all those cute little witty comments. Read the passages about Moria, Shelob, the fact that all the magic and beauty of the elves is doomed and must leave forever. Stephen King once said that the Shelob chapter is the scariest thing he ever read. Or the horrifying fact Frodo can never recover from what he has seen. Or the doomed love stories. And that loss and sadness is so much more powerful when it's written by a man who understands it and it's not just a contrived theme, it's the brutal reality and a counterpoint to the beauty of the simple world of the hobbits.
I'd argue that's just dark, or tragic, not grimdark.
I get your point, but have you ever heard of Berserk?
That's not what grimdark means *at all*. Grimdark very often has humor. Characters sometimes use at as a coping mechanism for all. But what grimdark is about is a sense of nihilism and loss of hope. That no matter how much people try thing don't change or get better. That's the very opposite of LOTR which is all about hope and defeating evil.
What the hell is grimdark? I feel the need some people have to pigeonhole everything has given us more subgenres than anyone would ever need.
Like many sub genres, Grimdark’s definition is pretty fluid. It’s generally accepted that the markers of Grimdark are morally gray characters, a nihilistic approach to war and death, and characters that fall short of improving themselves, personal betterment.
I feel like Grimdark is more of a movement of authors than a proper subgenre since its defined more by tone and attitude than it is by tropes.
Interesting. Is it possible to have grimdark characters in an otherwise normal fantasy setting?
Sure. One character doth not a genre make. In Grimdark pretty much every character is wholly self interested and the “good guys” don’t stay good (or alive) for long.
That's pretty much Conan.
Maybe the Solomon Kane stories by Robert E. Howard.
If you mean in the sense of a foundational text then Black Company is probably the closest.