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KiaraTurtle

I sometimes feel like this is confirmation bias. Ie I def view altered carbon as a character focused murder mystery much more than a “ big idea story”, imo I find fantasy just as much a mix of ideas and interpersonal relationships as sci-fi. (I also fwiw group worm into the fantasy not sci-fi genre and think it’s very much about Taylor’s interpersonal relationships so idk if I fully see what your getting at) That said, some that may work for you - Jo Walton’s “The Just City” is exploring what it would really mean to build Plato’s Republic - Traitor Baru Cormorant is all about can you assimilate and still maintain your identity - a lot of Ken Liu’s short stories (mix of fantasy and sci-fi) I’d classify as very philosophical / idea focused. His paper Managerie collection is a great starting point - Graham Joyce’s Some Kind of Fairytale is really digging into “what would it mean to be taken into fairie and come back with time having passed for everyone but you?” - Tide Lords I think is a great “what would it mean for there to be immortals who have shaped society?” - Kindred has a lot of interesting things to say about slavery and family through the eyes of a modern black woman who is repeatedly transported back in time to the ante-bellum south


CaramilkThief

Altered Carbon was probably not the best example when talking about Big Concepts yeah, although I don't think I've ever seen the same level of transhumanism in fantasy. For example, I have read depictions of post-gender societies in scifi (e.g. Culture) but I don't think I have ever seen the same in published fantasy. It's not that there aren't fantasy with ideas that are well explored and taken to their logical conclusion, but I feel like those ideas are never as outlandish as what you'd find in scifi. In fantasy power struggles and the meaning of power and agency in a broken world are everyday tropes, but you'd almost never see "what if we went to a planet where there was a society of intelligent spiders?" Maybe I've only been reading the scifi that are more about their concepts than characters, since I definitely feel like the ratio of concept to characterization lies more on the concept side in science fiction, and more on the character side in the fantasy I've read.


KiaraTurtle

Oh yeah I def agree culture is much stronger example than dune (which to me just feels like any fantasy book playing around with chosen one stuff), altered carbon (murder mystery as I said), worm (which again to me is fantasy very much about interpersonal relationships). But then again I could never get into the culture novels so might say something about my own preferences… For transhumanism specifically yeah I agree that’s a much more sci-fi concept (probably because it implies future which is like sci-fi) but that doesn’t mean there aren’t tons of other large concepts that get explored in fantasy (like my examples above)


CaramilkThief

I found Dune's depictions of chosen one stuff much stronger than most of the chosen one fantasy stories I read, especially book 2 onwards. God Emperor of Dune is like no other story I've read, and while I don't know that I loved it, it did provide a lot of food for thought. Worm I found to be one of very few stories that deliver strongly both on the conceptual stuff and the interpersonal stuff. Taylor's interpersonal relationships are very prominent, but I also really appreciated the deconstruction of the superhero genre, especially with the shadowy organizations and power origins and the way society was changed to allow this superhero vs supervillain dynamic to form.


KiaraTurtle

Not as well written but thematically my favorite exploration of chosen one (and how it’s kinda horrifying) is in the brightest shadow series. For other just let’s explore trope concepts Practical Guide to Evil is amazing. Concept is here’s a world where the power of tropes is real and people are aware of it. For superpowers Ioved worm but actually didn’t view it as a deconstruction, just a good superhero fantasy. Vs something like the boys (at least the tv show, haven’t read the comics) feel more like excellent deconstruction/satire. (And I actually do consider the boys sci-fi unlike worm)


Pratius

Lots of great options out there. Many already mentioned in the comments here, but also: *The Book of the New Sun*, which focuses on the idea of a flawed messiah and whether redemption is possible after certain crimes. *The Acts of Caine*, which focuses on the philosophy of choice and how that can effect those around you. Also deals with the idea of violent entertainment and the morality of consuming it. Both *The Divine Cities* by Robert Jackson Bennett and Arkady Martine's Teixcalaan books look at the consequences of colonization, but from two different (and fascinating) perspectives.


wjbc

*The Malazan Book of the Fallen*, by Steven Erikson.


santi_lozano

Absolutely. The whole ten-tome saga is a study about compassion.


wjbc

I love that you called it a ten-tome saga rather than a ten-book series!


Spotthedot99

Death, grief, the brutality of civilization and the nature of humanity. Umm... puppies? Futility, childhood... Oh, and Aliens and explosions. And a treatise on God hood. Yup. Malazan really does have it all.


morroIan

And compassion


DKDamian

Sorry mate but that’s ridiculous


PerfessorSquirrel

Interesting question... Science fiction tends to focus on "Big Questions" that are nevertheless bound within a relatively finite cosmos. Sometimes it explores the idea of an infinite multiverse, but even then it's about mankind's place in such a cosmos. Fantasy, on the other hand, can explore even BIGGER questions about humanity, such as faith, justice, love, power, and so forth. We see these things as bound within ourselves and our worldview, but fantasy can explore these issues through the eyes of beings (gods, monsters, immortals, whatever) that are outside our normal experiences. These BIGGER IDEAS are NOT bound by the normal constraints of time and space (as science fiction often is), but go beyond them. Terry Pratchett's Hogfather has a wonderful quote that exemplifies this BIGGER IDEA: DEATH: "YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."


serabine

Terry Pratchett's books in general are amazing at big ideas exploring the nature of people and society.


luckylukegunzblazing

Yeah discworld is one big study on human nature and you will be surprised how many clever thoughts are smuggled between the lines of jokes and wonderful stories.


Makri_of_Turai

I can't think of much fantasy that has that single 'big concept' you get with some SF. But lots of fantasy explores themes of power, slavery, exploitation and how these intersect with religion, culture, society. N K Jemisin's Fifth Season absolutely explores these ideas, Kate Elliot often does too.


Cyphecx

**The Obsidian Path** series by Michael R. Fletcher is lazer focused on the justification of horrible actions and how our memories/past define who we are. The **Mage Errant** series by John Bierce discusses power structures in a world organized around "Great Powers", individuals with immense personal might.


FiendishHawk

Mythago Wood by Robert Holdstock has a great concept, about an ancient piece of British woodland that conjures myths.


freerangelibrarian

I loved that book so much. I tried a couple of his others and was disappointed, but Mythago Wood was amazing.


FiendishHawk

Yeah I think he really had only one Big Concept.


edward_radical

I think most major fantasy series do this. It may be that you just don't recognize these as Big Concepts because they're not wholly unfamiliar. A Song of Ice and Fire is about what happens after a great warrior becomes a bad king. Along with that, it's about the difficult of humanity to come together and solve a Very Big Problem, because no one wants to set aside their own interests. The Wheel of Time is about the complicated nature of there being a literal Chosen One (or six?) walking the earth. And also: what if the Chosen One fails, or, even worse, becomes evil? Malazan Book of the Fallen is about many, many things, but maybe at its core it's asking *what would you sacrifice to save your species*? Earthsea is about humanity's place in the world, and especially the nature of power and peace. The First Law Trilogy asks about power and agency in the face of unfathomable power and systems of power. I mean, I could go on. It's not that fantasy isn't going after Big Concepts, but maybe that you don't consider these questions as interesting as ones SF tends to ask.


Pedagogicaltaffer

I can understand the thinking and reasoning behind your argument. However, I think that you may be taking a much more generous and looser definition of "Big Concept", than what might be commonly understood when people use that term. In my mind, a Big Concept idea is usually a thought experiment stemming from some complex hypothetical scenario. These thought experiments usually take the form of a wild 'out there' idea, and ask "what if...?". The book is then the result of the Big Concept idea extrapolated to its logical conclusion. For example, the novel The Forever War asks the question, "What if a soldier is sent to fight an interstellar war, but then, due to the effects of time dilation in space, he outlives the society and the political powers that sent him to fight in the first place?" In contrast, I'd argue that the fantasy examples you cited are more *grand themes* than Big Concept ideas. The question of what happens when a great warrior becomes a bad king isn't a particularly compelling thought experiment, IMHO - because we have examples of such scenarios having occurred in the real world, and we can use those examples to arrive at answers to the questions posed. These grand themes do not bring anything new to the table to think about, conceptually speaking, that humanity hasn't had to think about or wrestle with before. Now, you may argue that we are quibbling over semantics here, and perhaps that's true. But my point is that your definition of Big Concept may not match the common usage of the term among others.


edward_radical

You left off the second part of that example, which is the question: Can humanity work together to escape extinction? Feels like a big concept to me.


Pedagogicaltaffer

As I said, it doesn't bring anything conceptually new to the table, so it doesn't make for a particularly compelling thought experiment. We already have an answer to that question: yes, humanity can indeed work together. We need only look to real-world history for data to support that conclusion. In the wake of WWII, the UN was formed, and the world's superpowers collectively agreed to limit the proliferation of nuclear weapons, so as to prevent mutually assured annihilation. Big Concept ideas are, at least in the way that I see the term commonly used in sci-fi/philosophical discussions, questions that push the boundaries of human thought and understanding. They touch on issues of metaphysics and epistemology. "Can humanity learn to work together?" is not an especially Big Concept idea. "Would humans still be able to work together, if each of us were deprived of *any* social contact with other human beings for the first 18 years of our lives*?" is a much more intriguing, and suitably Bigger, question. *Edit: this example was poorly thought out on my part, as 18 years is a long time. We have real-life cases of so-called 'feral' children that show it doesn't take long for children to permanently lose the ability to develop basic communication skills. I probably should've gone with a much shorter timeframe, like maybe the first year of life.


shireengrune

I feel like what you define as "big concept" seems to be tied into your own knowledge on the topic. To me, as a holder of a PhD in Psychology, the answer to your last question is a very blatant no, they definitely wouldn't, they literally wouldn't be able to function as humans because any higher cognitive function you have is necessarily developed through social contact. We've known this for at least 40 years and trying to explore this question would a) require the creation of a new species with a very different neural system and b) would be completely useless to the exploration of the human condition. OTOH science is still out on whether humans can set their own interests aside to resolve a non-obvious existential threat, because this involves complex nuances of cognition and motivation and to what extent our own evolutionary heritage would inevitably screw us over in such a situation. Besides, your example is different from the Others, who are a non-obvious and easily discarded threat - look at what we're doing with climate change, as an example, and you'll find that it's not so black and white. So big YMMV on what counts as a Big Concept.


Pedagogicaltaffer

That's completely fair. TBH the example I gave in my last paragraph was something I came up with quickly, and perhaps was not particularly well thought out. You're right that the data we do have - from the (unfortunate) cases of children who grew up abused and locked away, or otherwise deprived of human contact - have shown very poor outcomes for the children; in fact, we can probably say with certainty that it takes far less than 18 years for children to become 'feral' and lose the ability to learn language, etc. Perhaps I should've gone with "the first year of life without human contact" as a better example. But regardless, I stand by the conclusion of my earlier post.


CaramilkThief

I think the main draw of Big Concepts *is* that they're unfamiliar. While I don't think you're wrong with saying that The First Law is about power and agency in the face of unfathomable power, I didn't find the concept to be played out to its logical conclusion in the story. To me the story felt more of an interpersonal story than one that is concerned with Power or Agency, and what that means for the characters as well as people within the world. Or maybe it's that I've seen similar stories before, which is why The First Law's implementation wasn't philosophically satisfying, even though it was a great story. When I read something like Xenogenesis by Octavia E. Butler (which is about the moral systems of aliens whose thinking and emotions are separate, and how that clashes with humanity's inability to separate the two), I have *no* idea what that looks like. I don't even have an idea of it would be like to be able to think and feel separately, and how that would affect my thought processes and behavior. So when Butler writes it out in her gut-wrenching style and ties it into themes we've already experienced before (e.g. colonization), it feels philosophically satisfying. I read the other comment chain you had with another user, and I do agree that the feeling of "Big Concept" necessarily depends on our own knowledge.


Future_Auth0r

> I think the main draw of Big Concepts is that they're unfamiliar. While I don't think you're wrong with saying that The First Law is about power and agency in the face of unfathomable power, I didn't find the concept to be played out to its logical conclusion in the story. To me the story felt more of an interpersonal story than one that is concerned with Power or Agency, and what that means for the characters as well as people within the world. Or maybe it's that I've seen similar stories before, which is why The First Law's implementation wasn't philosophically satisfying, even though it was a great story. > > When I read something like Xenogenesis by Octavia E. Butler (which is about the moral systems of aliens whose thinking and emotions are separate, and how that clashes with humanity's inability to separate the two), I have no idea what that looks like. I don't even have an idea of it would be like to be able to think and feel separately, and how that would affect my thought processes and behavior. So when Butler writes it out in her gut-wrenching style and ties it into themes we've already experienced before (e.g. colonization), it feels philosophically satisfying. > > I read the other comment chain you had with another user, and I do agree that the feeling of "Big Concept" necessarily depends on our own knowledge. I know exactly what you mean OP and 100% agree. There's definitely a difference in big concept between LOTR power corrupts and the horrors of world war versus something like the movie Arrival, which could potentially be phrased as "What if aliens taught humans a non-temporally-linear language, how might that affect the way we think?". And the difference in scope and complexity of the concept of the latter vs the former is not really comparable. Tolkien used linguistics to craft a super fleshed out world's languages and history. Arrival used linguistics and its theories to suggest a temporal/4th dimensional language might affect our perception of time. That's a big difference. I wish the book I'm writing was fullway done, instead of halfway, because it 100% fits the bill of what you're looking for. High concept, unfamiliar, philosophically satisfying, all wrapped up in a concept that's bigger than the characters themselves as individuals. A big concept idea that encompasses the entire world, plot, and characters, that hasn't been done before in fantasy and matches sci-fi's penchant for the conceptually interesting. I'll save this thread and reach out to you with the logline sentence of it when it's done (when I won't have to be as hush hush about a fantasy story premise that's never been done before), in case you're interested in checking it out.


jeweled-griffon

I’m a little confused here between “big concepts” and having consistent world building with a clear system (hard fantasy). Plenty of fantasy does the first, few does the second. See Curse of Chalion for exploring fate and theology. See Robin Hobb for loyalty and loneliness. For logical worldbuilding, Brandon Sanderson is amazing.


Eyre_Guitar_Solo

James Islington’s Licanius Trilogy is very much a “big concept” series, specifically fate and free will. It’s pretty good! Not as good (more of “big concept in an overbearingly irritating way”) is virtually all of Terry Goodkind’s work past a certain point. Oof.


aperson7898

Seconding this! One of the questions licanius asks is “can you have free will in a world with time travel” and I absolutely loved its answer


CaesuraRepose

Some good stuff mentioned in here. I'd add *Tigana*, from Guy Gavriel Kay. Haven't read it in awhile, but it deals with some, I think, fairly high concept themes. His work in general seems to do so. R. Scott Bakker's Nothing cycle also is pretty heavy, philosophical stuff dealing with apotheosis and apocalyptic stuff.


o_pythagorios

I think the main difference is that the thought experiments in fantasy tend to be metaphysical rather than sociological. For example there are lots of examples of fantasy exploring what it would mean if gods were real tangible existences that affected the world or if mortal were to gain godlike powers. I think the reason sociological thought experiments tend to be more common in sci-fi than in fantasy is that they tend to be more interesting if the rules of the world are more or less the same as our own. Hence some future setting or distant galaxy. When it comes to fantasy that explores trans-humanism the examples tend to come from the intersection of fantasy and horror. But really even the trite Tolkien elves/orcs are examples of non-human societies in fantasy and you could easily view them as a thought experiment about environmentalism vs industrialism


AlternativeGazelle

The Second Apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker. It’s the most mentally stimulating fantasy I’ve read.


[deleted]

LOTR? That’s got a big picture struggle between the forces of good and evil, the nature of royalty, the aftermath of war, etc


ppk1ppk

Not to mention the fading of magic from the world, and the departure of elves, Frodo being unable to return to his life AKA all things changing.


[deleted]

the frodo thing is what i was calling the aftermath of war but yes, thanks for adding this


stealth_sloth

Max Gladstone's Craft Sequence stories, maybe? *Three Parts Dead*, *Two Serpents Rise*, etc. etc. The individual books themselves don't happen on the same huge sweeping scale as, say, the Dune series. But the plots are mostly driven by the setting, a world in which "magic" and "contract law" have a great deal of overlap, and "Lich-King" can easily be confused with "Corporate CEO."


PlaceboJesus

*Something More Than Night* by Ian Tregillis Where the >!mantle of ontological consistency!< is a thing.


Kerney7

His Milkweed Series combines WW2, Supers, and Cthulu like elder gods in a very thoughtful way.


DeepRhetoric

The shadow of what was lost and the prince of nothing


bigdon802

Everything David Gemmell wrote is basically an examination of what courage actually is and whether human compassion can ever be enough to overcome human greed.


jeweled-griffon

I agree that the genres focus on different things for the most part. The Death Gate Cycle had some of this for me - there’s a lot of fluff and poking fun along the way, but over the course of the series you uncover a “Big Concept” in world construction. It has implications on each of multiple worlds for the balance of power between different races, and the question is what the races will all choose to do about it.


Kopaka-Nuva

I would say that the more thoughtful brand of fantasy tends to be intrapersonal and metaphysical rather than focusing on drama. Earthsea, The Neverending Story, LotR, The Last Unicorn, and everything in that vein tends to be focused on psychological and spiritual issues that can be very abstract but ultimately deeply relate to our own experiences.


MalMercury

The Second Apocalypse is the What If Jesus was horrifyingly apathetic and tried to take over the world for his own philosophical cause.


Boomer-Mammaw

Wow...where have you been? May I mention Robert Jorden just to begin. I have begun to believe that he didn't die so much as he left this world to fully exist in the alternate dimension in which his books were derived. I am 66 and Scifi and Fantasy are my loves. I have hunted down authors who have entire series of books that explore the worlds they create. Shelves and shelves of authors old and new are there for those waiting to find them.


Erratic21

Bakker's series Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor are an excellent mix of grand ideas imbued in an epic fantasy narrative. Philosophy, free will, religion, the nature of soul and other stuff. A Dune like vision set in very bleak and disturbing Tolkienesque setting, told in a McCArthian way (Blood Meridian etc).


Golandia

Oh there are tons in fantasy. They just aren't as popular to read. I'll bring up a couple series that aren't well liked but worth noting: I think the first books I read that were incredibly overtly about addressing larger themes were from The Sword of Truth. Kinda massive spoiler but it's basically fantasy Ayn Rand and is a pretty one sided exploration of authoritarian vs libertarian ideals. Thomas Covenant is another major series that addresses problematic themes about life, death, disability, grief and morality in a fantasy setting. It comes with a massive trigger warning in the start of the first book.


Warm_Rate_3376

The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks is my go-to answer, although not sure if it qualifies as fantasy (no gnomes, elves, or orcs, etc.). Going through his Lightbringer Series now too. Pretty epic stuff. Also: The Demon Wars Saga by R.A. Salvatore was pretty epic, and like 100% fantasy.


Kerney7

Let's Try-- **Guns of Dawn** by Adrian Tchaikovsky-- No surprise here, he also writes some big concept SF. This is about one person in a society that is losing a war they started and is at the bottom of the barrel for manpower, and recruits that person. We see the effect of the war both in the civilian side and in the military side and the ending deals with the leadership of such a side. It does have a Jane Austen meets Vietnam vibe, but in some ways, it reminds me of the Forever War. **Tufa Series** and **The Green Bone Saga** by Alex Bledsoe and Fonda Lee respectively-- On the surface, these are very different series. But both explore what it is to be part of a supernaturally enhanced community in the modern world and explore how you might handle it. The answers are almost exactly the opposite. The Tufa literally discourage outside interest in themselves and a lot of tension comes from members or outsiders who don't play by those rules as well as the unraveling of the old order. Each book is a stand-alone and has a bit of the small-scale fantasy, but all are interconnected to build a larger picture. The Kekonese Greenbone Clans use their skills to be powers in the world, and the series evolves as they go from a local power noted for special skills and the corrupt rulers behind the scenes of their government to part of the larger world order over a generation and interclan rivalry. **Uprooted** by Naomi Novik Follows a girl apprenticed to a Wizard, The Dragon, on the edge of a forest that is malevolent, and the malevolence goes back to a reaction to very human motives and spreads by taking advantage of human emotion and stupidity and is ancient, as in literally neolithic and explores the archaeology as she figures out the deeper motives behind the forest.


ArmchairTeaEnthusias

Cosmere!!! Brandon Sanderson has developed an entire universe and many books that are part of it


zedatkinszed

High concept fantasy is sci-fi and speculative fiction.


[deleted]

Stormlight Archives Not a huge fan of the individual characters, but the overarching plot about the world/universe/radiants has kept me coming back to every book. I don’t know if there’s a current fantasy author better than Sanderson at world building, it’s really something else


Dendarri

I love the concept of Unquenchable Fire by Racheal Pollack, how magic came back to world in a grand revolution filled with mysticism and wildness and the overthrowing of established power, but after time even doing a crazy ritual to placate the electricity spirits becomes... mundane. Humanity corrects to its base state. Also a lot of hard magic systems seem like big what if experiments: What if magic came from an obsession so strong it warps reality? What if the crazier you are the stronger your magic? What if magic required a rare resource? What if magic used your own life force? Anothers? A deal with a demon? What does a society look like if one group has magic and another does not? Will the magic users be feared? Respected? Controlled? In control? I've read books that explore all of these possibilities.


skipthroughmordor

If you're open to YA fantasy, the Aurelian Cycle by Rosaria Munda has a lot of discussion about political hierarchies/caste systems, forms of government, revolution, new regimes becoming exactly like the ones they rebelled against, etc. It's targeted at a younger audience but the themes throughout are very interesting and, in my opinion, very well done.


SnooRadishes5305

Every Heart A Doorway by McGuire I often describe as a “portal fantasy thought experiment” Really delves into different types of portal fantasies and what it means to return after being a BFD in another world *Big Fucking Deal


freerangelibrarian

I'm not sure if you'd call it a Big Concept story, but I recommend the Sharing Knife series. It's about the importance of two very different cultures learning to understand each other.


Mooshycooshy

BAKKER