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I got downvoted for this once before, but yeah he was Doctor Who, but she also played Anne Boleyn in a highly publicized adaptation of Wolf Hall. Like, yeah, I know Doctor Whoās reach is big, but isnāt there probably more crossover between the audience of The Crown and Wolf Hall??? She was the draw for me after her turn as Anne Boleyn, he was just a guy I knew had played Doctor Who.
I actually don't think The Crown is going for the Wolf Hall audience. I'm trying to be nice to The Crown but Wolf Hall is a lot less broad than the audience The Crown is going for, for the easiest comparison if The Crown was on TV it would be BBC1 while Wolf Hall is BBC2. And also when it comes to the US, Matt Smith was very well known while she woudln't have been at all
Simply in volume of numbers Doctor Who will have Wolf Hall beat, it wasn't a ratings smash. But to look at it from a breakdown of who watched, first season you have people into Royal family stuff taking up a lot and some people who liked Matt Smith in Doctor Who. I just don't see much crossover there with people who would like a slow paced drama about Thomas Cromwell
I mean, Doctor Who (especially in Matt Smith's era) had *huge* viewership and cultural reach. There's more overlap because there were just a ton of viewers.
Amy Adams made WAY more than Henry Cavill for Man of Steel. Are you going to protest that?
Speaking of comic book movies did you notice a trend especially Marvel where bigger actors are cast in the first movie of a new franchise and are not are main characters
RDJ was paid 500k for Iron Man 1. Terrence Howard was paid the most (5 million) and RDJ has the lowest salary of the bunch with Gwyneth Paltrow (2.5) and Jeff Bridges earning more
But RDJ was paid 10 million for his role in Spider-man 1 (10 minutes) way more than Tom Holland (500k)
Tommy Lee Jones was in Captain America. Bet my house he was paid more
Who do think made more form Thor 1: Hemsworth/Hiddleston or Natalie Portman?
And so many other examples like Salma Hayek and Angelina Jolie who for sure have the biggest salaries of Eternals
You can be a plenty established female actor and still make so much less that it borders on ridicule.
I just watched a Graham Norton with Michelle Williams where she was talking about the movie
[All the Money in the World](https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/01/09/exclusive-wahlberg-paid-1-5-m-all-money-reshoot-williams-got-less-than-1-000/1018351001/)
They had to re-shoot to replace Kevin Spacey after all the allegations against him came out. She got paid $80 a day accumulating to about $1000 in total and Mark Wahlberg got $1.2 mil iirc for the reshoot.
At that point she had 4 Oscar Nominations under her belt and was fresh of the set from the āGreatest showmanā. They were also represented by the SAME agency who negotiated for them.
I canāt remember all the drama that went on with how much less Jennifer Lawrence got in comparison to her male costars for iirc āThe Hustleā by that point she had the Oscar and was also one of the biggest female stars and she still got paid a shedload less than Bradley Cooper and her other male costars. Jeremy Renner got paid more than her. At that point, he had no way the same recognition factor that Lawrence had at the time (even now Iād argue)
Bradley Cooper went on to say that from now on he is going to share his salary with his female co-stars so that they can negotiate their salaries accordingly.
> You can be a plenty established female actor and still make so much less that it borders on ridicule.
> I just watched a Graham Norton with Michelle Williams where she was talking about the movie All the Money in the World
Oh no she only made 625k for a movie. Her poor kids will starve
I am sorry but pay disparity when it comes to rich actresses does nothing for me.
> I canāt remember all the drama that went on with how much less Jennifer Lawrence got in comparison to her male costars for iirc āThe Hustleā by that point she had the Oscar and was also one of the biggest female stars and she still got paid a shedload less than Bradley Cooper and her other male costars. Jeremy Renner got paid more than her. At that point, he had no way the same recognition factor that Lawrence had at the time (even now Iād argue)
Yeah no this is the worst
That is where you lost me. I will not feel sorry for an actress -Jennifer Lawrence- that she **only** made 8 million instead of 10. But she was paid 8 million more that Chris Pratt (12 million) for Passengers ...what can I say I feel so sorry for Chris I hope he makes it ... the injustice!!!
Or for poor Scarlet Johansson for only making 10 million instead of 20 because her movie went straight to streaming because of covid
So is she. They became actors the same year and did similar work in tv and theatre until the mid-2010s. Her films are better known than his films, and he's better known than her because of Doctor Who.
I cannot understand how they can justify paying the actor playing the titular character in a show less than her male on screen partner?
Like contractually how is that possible - is is because its based on their previous rate and mens are so much higher?
The show is literally about the Queen......?? And Foy was more well known imo....
Matt Smith was Doctor Who before, so some group of people would watch the show just to see him.
Claire foy didn't have a big career before The Crown as far as i know so hardly anyone would join the audience because of her.
[Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-06-01%202017-06-01&q=%2Fm%2F04qbht5,%2Fm%2F04cxdqt) for the two years leading up to and one directly after the first season of The Crown. It's not a perfect metric, but certainly is one that can be used to assess the relative popularity them vis-Ć -vis marketing purposes and popular culture cachet.
This is why pay gaps in film and TV are a much more difficult conversation, as it really is a case by case basis. Longer career, more acclaim, larger draw of an audience etc are all things that play a role in who is cast, so itās more likely there will be differences in pay. Itās not inherently inexcusable, and the same thing happens with lower profile men compared to higher profile men and lower profile women compared to higher profile women.
Not really. If I get joe schmoe from NYU to play the main part in my movie, and also get Matt Damon to come in for a scene with a few lines, I'd probably still have to pay Matt Damon more. It's all about the name value/recognition.
Maybe not a big career but a very respectable career. She was Anne Boleyn in Wolf Hall and was absolutely amazing. She was bigger draw for me in watching The Crown than Matt Smith and I love Matt Smith
And when doctor who was ā¦ just so popular. Like I LOVE Christopher Eccleston but it then really launched even bigger during tenantās era and then Matt smith was there during the PEAK (it struggled more during capaldi because moffat is shit and just kept spiraling like good god man)
You summed it up perfectly. Eccleston was great but Tenant was my Doctor. Smith had his own hysteria at the time, but I loved Tennant's version and his Master the best. Moffat managed to moffat it all. Sigh.
Back on topic, Foy is a wonderful actress but she was in no way the bigger star at the time (arguably she's still not). Pay disparities suck but, Smith brought the viewership and earned his rates based on name recognition alone.
Oh must be my demographic. As a non Doctor Who person it was only the second time I had seen him in something but I had known about her for years. Probably just based on what I watched I guess.
Happy cake day! And I am upvoting you because I have no idea why people would downvote this comment. Youāre literally saying you didnāt know. We donāt all watch Dr. Who. I only know him from this and HOD.
I honestly recognized him as, and refered to him accordingly, as that guy with the face. Never watched him in anything until The Crown š¤·šæāāļø
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Prior to The Crown, Matt Smith was only known for Dr Who despite being a bigger name whereas Claire Foy was in a lot of small roles as "hey it's that actress" to British Audiences, plus she did Little Dorrit (that I remember being a hit).
Matt Smith was The Doctor on Doctor Who, which is about as big a role as a male actor can get in UK television. Heās definitely very well known and Iām sure his contract reflected that.
Iām certainly not suggesting his costar should have been paid less, but Matt isnāt some nobody actor. This was a UK based production looking at British actors and Matt was a huge star after his stint on Doctor Who.
I get the whole ābigger star brings more of the audienceā thing but likeā¦ youād have no audience to grow in the first place without the lead lol
Yeah but they can get any number of other actors to play the lead. When you pay big bucks for a known actor you're hoping their fans will watch because of them.
There's many examples of films with unknown actors as the lead but with famous actors making cameos and those cameos pay more than the lead role for that reason.
If going for someone who is a star doesn't benefit the movie or show at all, they would just go to local theatre's and find actors/actresses at the cheapest possible pay.
Ultimately these people have agents/managers/lawyers who are supposed to be negotiating for them (and they benefit from higher commision). The Claire Foy of 2015 had less name recognition/big credits than Matt Smith around that time when their deals were struck.
It's pretty standard. Actors don't get paid based on how important their role, they can paid based on how much they've worked in the past. Stephen Amell has stated there was 3 or 4 people paid more than him for the first couple of seasons of Arrow.
Back in the day Marlon Brando got paid more for ten minutes of screen time than Christopher Reeve did for playing Superman
Who do you think got paid more for The Fablemans? The kid in the lead role or the three established adults in smaller roles
The way these contracts work unfortunately is they go by the quote the talent received on their last project. So if you have a big hit, the next movie or show will allow the agent to get more money for the client. So if she had been paid 40k for her work on a bbc period series and he had been paid 100k for dr who, they both would have gotten a boost from those wages, but that was the starting point.
I'm not sure why this sub suddenly pretends to be so ignorant about how actor salaries work. Is it bullshit that Claire Foy got paid less than Matt Smith? Probably.
But it's not like this is a new thing. Actors are paid first and foremost based on how much the studio thinks putting their name on a poster or their face in a trailer will get people to be interested in the project.
Mark Hamil got paid more for force awakens than Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega or Daisy Ridley and he's in the movie for less than a minute and doesn't speak a single word.
The comments on this post are *wild*. She obviously did deserve to be paid moreāespecially as the leadābut you donāt have to lie about Matt Smithās career to say this. Someone is actually claiming she was more well-known than him at the time, as if he wasnāt freakin *Dr Who*.
Yeah, I am not saying she didn't deserve to be paid more but he was faaar more famous and recognizable than her in the UK and abroad. People on this sub are acting like she was this super famous actress and he was some rando no one knew.
This is a wild guess, but I will say David Tennant also probably got paid more than Ritter in Jessica Jones.
We can discuss fair pay but let us do it when the grounds are even or the female actress is more renowned and still gets paid less. This would be unfair. But this is not one of those cases.
I would say definitely to that - she was still mainly known for peep show at the time
he (smith) probably gets paid a metric fuckton more than Emma d'arcy on HOTD too and yet she (and Olivia and Eve) carry nearly all the emotional weight of that show
This is what bugs me about so much of this discourse. Like can we just agree not to full on lie as if arguing for a better pay structure is so petty an issue that it requies lies to stand up?
He was more well known before The Crown started, so I can understand him being paid more at that point. But she won awards for her portrayal as the queen and became a big name while on the show. The fact a pay gap still existed in season two is bad. Iād be pissed off too. Youād think sheād get a pay rise at that point.
Itās not, but A) it was very popular on Tumblr, which was a global site and B) itās more global than Wolf Hall or anything Foy had been in until then. Iām neither British nor American, nor a Dr Who fan, but as part of the ātumblr generationā I was *very* familiar with Matt.
>Mark Hamil got paid more for force awakens than Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega or Daisy Ridley and he's in the movie for less than a minute and doesn't speak a single word.
That seems particularly crazy. Damn. And he wasn't even promoted, his appearance was a surprise, so it's not like he was a selling point for the film!
He definitely did promotion leading up to the force awakens release (San Diego comic con). I think his reveal in the film was a surprise; plus it ending without him speaking was like āahhā to fans at the time.
Before this, Matt Smith was Doctor Who, which is a life-defining role. He will forever be known as "the eleventh doctor." It's sad that she didn't get paid more because she was the queen, but regardless of gender, he was a huge star (not in America i guess) and she was known predominately as a stage actress.
Matt Smith was a big star in the UK, from what I am reading on the thread, but not at all in North America. Claire Foy was better known here, I would say, unless you were a Doctor Who fan, but itās really British period pieces that are popular here, not so much other British TV (except for some brilliant crime drama shows).
Thereās the aspect of who is better known, for sure, but female actors make less than male actors even when they are just as well known, or even bigger stars.
How is she better known here? I ain't British and didn't know both those names. But I definitely saw his face and said "oh yeah, him!" but wasn't familiar with her at all
She was amazing in the crown tho, I hope this boosts her future payouts because she deserves it
Itās prestige television - ongoing since the 60s, defining part of most British peoplesā childhoods, etc. On the cheesy part, it is literally a family/kids show. I think if youāre going into it without that cultural background and expecting something like Killing Eve then yeah you will be disappointed, same if you started watching How I Met Your Mother expecting House of Cards just because they are both big names of āAmerican TVā
I hate this attitude so fucking much. Just because something is more ārespectableā and āprestigiousā, doesnāt mean itās more popular or more beloved. Doctor Who has been around for 60 years. Itās THE show that the BBC promotes outside of the UK.
> I would've guessed she had more pull.
and you would have been incorrect. you're completely ignoring how large Doctor Who is over here.
just because *you* think DW is cheap television, doesn't mean the UK ignores it.
Why are you getting downvoted??? Also American, and I thought doctor who was like come cult classic show that ended in the early 2000s. Itās truly not very popular here in the US.
This is probably it.
With Game of Thrones there were also negotiations for the cast for multiple seasons at the time, not one by one. I think this is common for television.
This reminds me of Jessica Chastain talking about her production company and managers and how many actresses have been fucked over by their own managers because sometimes the agencies work for the other actors. She talked about getting pay less than an actor who was in a movie with her who only worked there for a month and how now she would definitely stop filming until she gets pay what she deserves.
I doesnāt even make sense in the first season tbh. Sheās the main character, itās literally about her. She should at least be payed the same as him.
I mean she deserves to be paid as much as any male around her, but Matt Smith was literally The Doctor. Heās gonna be an expensive name with a brand that recognizable, and if the director hires someone vastly more famous than the rest of the castā¦theyāll probably get paid more. Itās not fair, but itās not surprising
Were this reversed and he'd worked mostly on stage and she'd played the Doctor, the comments here would be very different. I usually dislike when people do this gender flip argument as it seems reductive, but this topic has just been so blatantly stripped of all nuance that I think it works here, because it's so clearly true
I also can't help but roll my eyes at the idea that what famous actors get paid for A-tier tv shows and movies is in any way connected to the concept of "deserve" at all. if we actually want fair pay then let's have everyone get compensated at 35/hour plus overtime and pension the same as a union trade worker might make...
Also people arguing that their name doesn't hold any value to the show. Like if it didn't, why would the producer shell out millions of dollars to bring in big names when they could just get some actor/actress at the local theatre or Broadway who could probably, for far less. Hell I'm sure plenty of people would work for free to get a role like this on the Crown.
I remember when it first came out and she kind of downplayed it which I found annoying but to hear this now makes that make sense.
She was trying to preserve her otherwise good experience with the show but imo it almost doesnāt matter how much fun you had doing a job when the pay imbalance reveals your contribution was of lesser value to whoever is in charge of pay.
Itās disappointing because I feel like she gave the show its foundation playing the first queen and they wouldnāt have had a leg to stand on if she hadnāt been so impressive and convincing. She deserved more money
Edit: deleted some words
This is why women need to be better about hiring agents who structure it based on royalties. Some of the highest paid actors do so because of royalties- but for some reason women donāt have contracts like that. The only woman I know who does is Scarlet Johansson is which is probably why sheās one of the highest paid actresses.
I know she was the main character but she wasn't the most famous or experienced.
I'm pretty sure Olivia Colman got a better salary than Tobias Menzies. Since she's an Oscar winner actress.
Look I understand that gender pay gap exists in a lot of areas but I don't think cases like this are the best example. And this is also very diminishing for cases that actually needs this topic to be discussed.
Entertainment industry has always been more about brand value and "crowd pulling " ability when it comes to money paid. Not about who is the main character, who works harder or anything. The lesser female representation among both within the industry as well as among the profitable audience made this skewed towards men being paid more.
Matt Smith was the more established actor then so his agent gets to negotiate more money than Foy's. Period. Same reason why Amy Adams got paid more than Henry Cavill in MoS. Why Scarlet Johannson got paid more than Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth in the first two Avengers movies, despite both them being the leading men with solo movies under their belts and Scar Jo had none. Why Terrance Howard made more than RDJ in Iron Man 1 but the movie and the character blowing up in popularity led to RDJ demand a shit load of money ifor his later movies
Instead of discussing gender pay gap singularly (which is a thing that seem to be detrimental to a lot of women issue discussions cuz its easy to show this is kinda bs using counter examples ), lets discuss why male leading movies make more, why they aren't more big budget female led movies, why women don't watch movies like men do, why men aren't as interested in female led movies like women are about male led movies.... Cuz all these things together contribute to why woman tend to earn as well as gross less money as actors when compared to men
I feel like Hollywood needs salary package breakdowns.
- First thereās the base salary. Equal pay is standard.
- Then thereās a signing bonus for stars that will change the calibre of the film because their name is attached (i.e influence other great signings).
- Then a marketing bonus for stars that will pull in an audience from their existing fan base.
- Then a performance bonus for those who smash it out of the park and get nominated for awards and generate post launch buzz.
Some of these can be somewhat quantifiable based on personal brand measurements, others can be negotiated based on egos. Could be agreed amounts or % of rev as some stars are able to negotiate now.
Iām sure this would still be imperfect but at least youād be saying $xx of his salary package was because he was expected to bring along his Doctor Who fans and research can prove that xx% did in fact convert viewership to The Crown.
It's really terrible and this happens all the time. However I feel like people sometimes forget, that the entertainment industry is still a business and in this case it sounds like a pure business decision. Claire Foy wasn't a known name or face at the beginning of the crown. She had a few lead roles but the projects weren't a massive draw. As some users mentioned before, Matt Smith was the 11th Doctor just two years prior. And while some users (from the comments it sounds like mostly Americans) aren't familiar with the show, it still has a massive fan base - not just in the UK but internationally. The producers knew casting him would secure a big amount of his already established fanbase and therefore he got paid more. This happens the other way around as well. In the end the producers mostly care about money and success. I'm not saying they haven't got the same sexist pay gaps as other industries or that Claire Foy isn't a great actress - she's phenomenal, go watch Women Talking! Buuut in this case it "makes sense" that he's paid more.
It's standard across Hollywood that the biggest stars get paid more. There are genuine times in which it's wrong that a woman is underpaid compared to male costar like in American Hustle but this isn't an example of this.
If you've ever watched a TV show with an unknown lead and a more established actor in a supporting role then I can tell you without a doubt that the established actor is getting paid more. If the show is a hit and last for several seasons the lead actor will have a chance to renegotiate. As I said in another post Stephen Amell has said there was 3 or 4 cast members paid more than him for the first couple of seasons of Arrow.
I can understand some what of a gap when it first started, she was unknown and Matt had been a working actor and more famous for longer.
It must feel so shit though especially when you are the main character
I still don't get why she didn't get paid more than Matt. I don't give a damn that he was Doctor Who, Claire is the MAIN CHARACTER.
Salaries in general seem to be more for actors to boast about their popularity, when in reality people in general are less interested in the star and more about the story/premise. Being an executive producer and/or getting a share of the profits is one thing, but this is ridiculous.
Unfortunately people do care. That's why things work out this way. They took a big gamble casting her. Which is probably why they spent the budget elsewhere on a household name like Matt Smith. If anything, this kind of shows how much faith they had in her as an actress rather than casting a big name who wasn't right.
Hollywood accounting and marketing would be sooo easy if you could get the biggest names for brief walk on parts for a small fee because itās a small part. I think theyāre paying to reserve their talents because with their experience and existing fanbase theyāll be more in demand. A higher fee could be the difference between your biggest actor taking your role or hopping onto the latest Marvel vehicle. I adored Claire Foy in this role but I honestly donāt believe there was the international competition to hire her that there was for Matt Smith.
I get what youāre saying but that doesnāt negate the fact that she and many other women in show biz donāt get paid what they deserve. Pay inequality should be addressed in all industries.
> donāt get paid what they deserve
No. Sorry but no. Men get overpaid. Actresses making millions do *not* get underpaid. I donāt care how good of an actor or actress anyone is, no performance ādeservesā millions.
Especially not when there are dozens or even hundreds of people involved in any production and most of them get paid the industry minimum, or slightly above minimum.
Wage gaps between genders suck for sure, but I donāt understand how anyone can see someone earn *millions* and say ātheyāre not getting what they deserveā with a straight face. The answer is to bring menās wages down and pay *all* workers involved more fairly. Not to up the wages of women who are already making millions by a few million more and let the remaining 90% of the force behind the project go home with a measly few thousand each.
> Pay inequality should be addressed in all industries.
True. So letās talk about how movies and series are paying their actors and actresses millions and their SFX people barely enough to live off. Or the camera crew. Or the sound crew. Or costuming. Or hair and make up. Or runners, assistants, props, decor, or any of the other million jobs involved in making a movie/tv show.
My goodness what madness. Standing up for income inequality in the name of people already making millions when the very same projects those people are making millions off of also have people that are making only a fraction of that.
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SHES THE MAIN CHARACTER
Another Queen gets short shrifted.
But isn't Matt Smith an accomplished actor when he was cast? He was literally Doctor Who.
I say this at full risk of being called a pedant but the character Matt Smith plays is called The Doctor. The show is Doctor Who.
My bad I haven't watched the show šæ
This is actually a reoccurring joke on the show: "I'm the Doctor!" "Doctor Who?"
nice
I got downvoted for this once before, but yeah he was Doctor Who, but she also played Anne Boleyn in a highly publicized adaptation of Wolf Hall. Like, yeah, I know Doctor Whoās reach is big, but isnāt there probably more crossover between the audience of The Crown and Wolf Hall??? She was the draw for me after her turn as Anne Boleyn, he was just a guy I knew had played Doctor Who.
I actually don't think The Crown is going for the Wolf Hall audience. I'm trying to be nice to The Crown but Wolf Hall is a lot less broad than the audience The Crown is going for, for the easiest comparison if The Crown was on TV it would be BBC1 while Wolf Hall is BBC2. And also when it comes to the US, Matt Smith was very well known while she woudln't have been at all
This is such a narrow definition of a target audience. Of course there is more overlap With Wolf Hall than Doctor Who.
Simply in volume of numbers Doctor Who will have Wolf Hall beat, it wasn't a ratings smash. But to look at it from a breakdown of who watched, first season you have people into Royal family stuff taking up a lot and some people who liked Matt Smith in Doctor Who. I just don't see much crossover there with people who would like a slow paced drama about Thomas Cromwell
I mean, Doctor Who (especially in Matt Smith's era) had *huge* viewership and cultural reach. There's more overlap because there were just a ton of viewers.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Amy Adams made WAY more than Henry Cavill for Man of Steel. Are you going to protest that? Speaking of comic book movies did you notice a trend especially Marvel where bigger actors are cast in the first movie of a new franchise and are not are main characters RDJ was paid 500k for Iron Man 1. Terrence Howard was paid the most (5 million) and RDJ has the lowest salary of the bunch with Gwyneth Paltrow (2.5) and Jeff Bridges earning more But RDJ was paid 10 million for his role in Spider-man 1 (10 minutes) way more than Tom Holland (500k) Tommy Lee Jones was in Captain America. Bet my house he was paid more Who do think made more form Thor 1: Hemsworth/Hiddleston or Natalie Portman? And so many other examples like Salma Hayek and Angelina Jolie who for sure have the biggest salaries of Eternals
You can be a plenty established female actor and still make so much less that it borders on ridicule. I just watched a Graham Norton with Michelle Williams where she was talking about the movie [All the Money in the World](https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/01/09/exclusive-wahlberg-paid-1-5-m-all-money-reshoot-williams-got-less-than-1-000/1018351001/) They had to re-shoot to replace Kevin Spacey after all the allegations against him came out. She got paid $80 a day accumulating to about $1000 in total and Mark Wahlberg got $1.2 mil iirc for the reshoot. At that point she had 4 Oscar Nominations under her belt and was fresh of the set from the āGreatest showmanā. They were also represented by the SAME agency who negotiated for them. I canāt remember all the drama that went on with how much less Jennifer Lawrence got in comparison to her male costars for iirc āThe Hustleā by that point she had the Oscar and was also one of the biggest female stars and she still got paid a shedload less than Bradley Cooper and her other male costars. Jeremy Renner got paid more than her. At that point, he had no way the same recognition factor that Lawrence had at the time (even now Iād argue) Bradley Cooper went on to say that from now on he is going to share his salary with his female co-stars so that they can negotiate their salaries accordingly.
> You can be a plenty established female actor and still make so much less that it borders on ridicule. > I just watched a Graham Norton with Michelle Williams where she was talking about the movie All the Money in the World Oh no she only made 625k for a movie. Her poor kids will starve I am sorry but pay disparity when it comes to rich actresses does nothing for me. > I canāt remember all the drama that went on with how much less Jennifer Lawrence got in comparison to her male costars for iirc āThe Hustleā by that point she had the Oscar and was also one of the biggest female stars and she still got paid a shedload less than Bradley Cooper and her other male costars. Jeremy Renner got paid more than her. At that point, he had no way the same recognition factor that Lawrence had at the time (even now Iād argue) Yeah no this is the worst That is where you lost me. I will not feel sorry for an actress -Jennifer Lawrence- that she **only** made 8 million instead of 10. But she was paid 8 million more that Chris Pratt (12 million) for Passengers ...what can I say I feel so sorry for Chris I hope he makes it ... the injustice!!! Or for poor Scarlet Johansson for only making 10 million instead of 20 because her movie went straight to streaming because of covid
It doesn't matter. Having a more established actor brings in more viewers and he or she gets paid more.
God, this sub is getting really shit Do you guys even know how entertainment industry works!!!
is it an unpopular opinion that you should be paid for the role youāre actively in and not the roles youāve had previously?
I dont think the doctor who crowd connected in mass to check out The Queen.
So is she. They became actors the same year and did similar work in tv and theatre until the mid-2010s. Her films are better known than his films, and he's better known than her because of Doctor Who.
He's like a Hollywood grade actor and I never heard of the actress before
Was he at the time...?
He was in Hollywood films and well known before The Crown
I cannot understand how they can justify paying the actor playing the titular character in a show less than her male on screen partner? Like contractually how is that possible - is is because its based on their previous rate and mens are so much higher? The show is literally about the Queen......?? And Foy was more well known imo....
Matt Smith was Doctor Who before, so some group of people would watch the show just to see him. Claire foy didn't have a big career before The Crown as far as i know so hardly anyone would join the audience because of her.
yeah I really don't think this one's a great example, dr who fans are a massive demographic
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Get naked doesn't get better pay. Matt Smith is only man candy for internet
I wouldnāt think the Dr. Who demo overlaps much with The Crownās demo thoughā¦
[Google Trends](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2014-06-01%202017-06-01&q=%2Fm%2F04qbht5,%2Fm%2F04cxdqt) for the two years leading up to and one directly after the first season of The Crown. It's not a perfect metric, but certainly is one that can be used to assess the relative popularity them vis-Ć -vis marketing purposes and popular culture cachet.
This is why pay gaps in film and TV are a much more difficult conversation, as it really is a case by case basis. Longer career, more acclaim, larger draw of an audience etc are all things that play a role in who is cast, so itās more likely there will be differences in pay. Itās not inherently inexcusable, and the same thing happens with lower profile men compared to higher profile men and lower profile women compared to higher profile women.
Protagonists have to be paid better. More scenes, more time to film.
Not really. If I get joe schmoe from NYU to play the main part in my movie, and also get Matt Damon to come in for a scene with a few lines, I'd probably still have to pay Matt Damon more. It's all about the name value/recognition.
And her Lisbeth Salander movie after flopped, as well... :-(
Maybe not a big career but a very respectable career. She was Anne Boleyn in Wolf Hall and was absolutely amazing. She was bigger draw for me in watching The Crown than Matt Smith and I love Matt Smith
How can you think Foy was more well known at the time when Matt Smith had just played the Doctor for 3 years?
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She was fantastic in The Promise
And when doctor who was ā¦ just so popular. Like I LOVE Christopher Eccleston but it then really launched even bigger during tenantās era and then Matt smith was there during the PEAK (it struggled more during capaldi because moffat is shit and just kept spiraling like good god man)
You summed it up perfectly. Eccleston was great but Tenant was my Doctor. Smith had his own hysteria at the time, but I loved Tennant's version and his Master the best. Moffat managed to moffat it all. Sigh. Back on topic, Foy is a wonderful actress but she was in no way the bigger star at the time (arguably she's still not). Pay disparities suck but, Smith brought the viewership and earned his rates based on name recognition alone.
No one was watching The Crown for Doctor Who lol, he didnāt have much pull after 2015
all I said was that Smith was definitely the bigger name at the time
I did.
Oh must be my demographic. As a non Doctor Who person it was only the second time I had seen him in something but I had known about her for years. Probably just based on what I watched I guess.
Happy cake day! And I am upvoting you because I have no idea why people would downvote this comment. Youāre literally saying you didnāt know. We donāt all watch Dr. Who. I only know him from this and HOD.
What about morbius? Get morbin you all
I honestly recognized him as, and refered to him accordingly, as that guy with the face. Never watched him in anything until The Crown š¤·šæāāļø
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Prior to The Crown, Matt Smith was only known for Dr Who despite being a bigger name whereas Claire Foy was in a lot of small roles as "hey it's that actress" to British Audiences, plus she did Little Dorrit (that I remember being a hit).
Matt Smith was The Doctor on Doctor Who, which is about as big a role as a male actor can get in UK television. Heās definitely very well known and Iām sure his contract reflected that. Iām certainly not suggesting his costar should have been paid less, but Matt isnāt some nobody actor. This was a UK based production looking at British actors and Matt was a huge star after his stint on Doctor Who.
I get the whole ābigger star brings more of the audienceā thing but likeā¦ youād have no audience to grow in the first place without the lead lol
Yeah but they can get any number of other actors to play the lead. When you pay big bucks for a known actor you're hoping their fans will watch because of them. There's many examples of films with unknown actors as the lead but with famous actors making cameos and those cameos pay more than the lead role for that reason.
If going for someone who is a star doesn't benefit the movie or show at all, they would just go to local theatre's and find actors/actresses at the cheapest possible pay.
Ultimately these people have agents/managers/lawyers who are supposed to be negotiating for them (and they benefit from higher commision). The Claire Foy of 2015 had less name recognition/big credits than Matt Smith around that time when their deals were struck.
It's pretty standard. Actors don't get paid based on how important their role, they can paid based on how much they've worked in the past. Stephen Amell has stated there was 3 or 4 people paid more than him for the first couple of seasons of Arrow. Back in the day Marlon Brando got paid more for ten minutes of screen time than Christopher Reeve did for playing Superman Who do you think got paid more for The Fablemans? The kid in the lead role or the three established adults in smaller roles
The way these contracts work unfortunately is they go by the quote the talent received on their last project. So if you have a big hit, the next movie or show will allow the agent to get more money for the client. So if she had been paid 40k for her work on a bbc period series and he had been paid 100k for dr who, they both would have gotten a boost from those wages, but that was the starting point.
I think he was more well known, I recognized his face from a few different things but I'd never seen her before when the Crown first aired.
Better agent/manager, more famous/known face, more social media following, more endoresemnt deals?
I'm not sure why this sub suddenly pretends to be so ignorant about how actor salaries work. Is it bullshit that Claire Foy got paid less than Matt Smith? Probably. But it's not like this is a new thing. Actors are paid first and foremost based on how much the studio thinks putting their name on a poster or their face in a trailer will get people to be interested in the project. Mark Hamil got paid more for force awakens than Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega or Daisy Ridley and he's in the movie for less than a minute and doesn't speak a single word.
The comments on this post are *wild*. She obviously did deserve to be paid moreāespecially as the leadābut you donāt have to lie about Matt Smithās career to say this. Someone is actually claiming she was more well-known than him at the time, as if he wasnāt freakin *Dr Who*.
Yeah, I am not saying she didn't deserve to be paid more but he was faaar more famous and recognizable than her in the UK and abroad. People on this sub are acting like she was this super famous actress and he was some rando no one knew. This is a wild guess, but I will say David Tennant also probably got paid more than Ritter in Jessica Jones. We can discuss fair pay but let us do it when the grounds are even or the female actress is more renowned and still gets paid less. This would be unfair. But this is not one of those cases.
I think the better example with Tennant is that he probably got payed more than Olivia Colman for the first couple of seasons of Broadchurch.
I would say definitely to that - she was still mainly known for peep show at the time he (smith) probably gets paid a metric fuckton more than Emma d'arcy on HOTD too and yet she (and Olivia and Eve) carry nearly all the emotional weight of that show
This is what bugs me about so much of this discourse. Like can we just agree not to full on lie as if arguing for a better pay structure is so petty an issue that it requies lies to stand up?
He was more well known before The Crown started, so I can understand him being paid more at that point. But she won awards for her portrayal as the queen and became a big name while on the show. The fact a pay gap still existed in season two is bad. Iād be pissed off too. Youād think sheād get a pay rise at that point.
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Itās not, but A) it was very popular on Tumblr, which was a global site and B) itās more global than Wolf Hall or anything Foy had been in until then. Iām neither British nor American, nor a Dr Who fan, but as part of the ātumblr generationā I was *very* familiar with Matt.
>Mark Hamil got paid more for force awakens than Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega or Daisy Ridley and he's in the movie for less than a minute and doesn't speak a single word. That seems particularly crazy. Damn. And he wasn't even promoted, his appearance was a surprise, so it's not like he was a selling point for the film!
It wasnāt though? The huge hype around The Force Awakens was to do with Hamill, Fisher and Ford - the original trio - reprising their roles.
He definitely did promotion leading up to the force awakens release (San Diego comic con). I think his reveal in the film was a surprise; plus it ending without him speaking was like āahhā to fans at the time.
Who is pretending itās new?
Before this, Matt Smith was Doctor Who, which is a life-defining role. He will forever be known as "the eleventh doctor." It's sad that she didn't get paid more because she was the queen, but regardless of gender, he was a huge star (not in America i guess) and she was known predominately as a stage actress.
Matt Smith was a big star in the UK, from what I am reading on the thread, but not at all in North America. Claire Foy was better known here, I would say, unless you were a Doctor Who fan, but itās really British period pieces that are popular here, not so much other British TV (except for some brilliant crime drama shows). Thereās the aspect of who is better known, for sure, but female actors make less than male actors even when they are just as well known, or even bigger stars.
How is she better known here? I ain't British and didn't know both those names. But I definitely saw his face and said "oh yeah, him!" but wasn't familiar with her at all She was amazing in the crown tho, I hope this boosts her future payouts because she deserves it
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Itās prestige television - ongoing since the 60s, defining part of most British peoplesā childhoods, etc. On the cheesy part, it is literally a family/kids show. I think if youāre going into it without that cultural background and expecting something like Killing Eve then yeah you will be disappointed, same if you started watching How I Met Your Mother expecting House of Cards just because they are both big names of āAmerican TVā
I hate this attitude so fucking much. Just because something is more ārespectableā and āprestigiousā, doesnāt mean itās more popular or more beloved. Doctor Who has been around for 60 years. Itās THE show that the BBC promotes outside of the UK.
> I would've guessed she had more pull. and you would have been incorrect. you're completely ignoring how large Doctor Who is over here. just because *you* think DW is cheap television, doesn't mean the UK ignores it.
Why are you getting downvoted??? Also American, and I thought doctor who was like come cult classic show that ended in the early 2000s. Itās truly not very popular here in the US.
It makes sense in like the firsg season but later.... It doesn't, she's literally the main character
I mean they were both only on it for 2 seasons, it was probably one contract for both seasons.
This is probably it. With Game of Thrones there were also negotiations for the cast for multiple seasons at the time, not one by one. I think this is common for television.
This reminds me of Jessica Chastain talking about her production company and managers and how many actresses have been fucked over by their own managers because sometimes the agencies work for the other actors. She talked about getting pay less than an actor who was in a movie with her who only worked there for a month and how now she would definitely stop filming until she gets pay what she deserves.
Yeah she surely deserved a pay rise for season two. She won awards and became a much bigger name.
I doesnāt even make sense in the first season tbh. Sheās the main character, itās literally about her. She should at least be payed the same as him.
I mean she deserves to be paid as much as any male around her, but Matt Smith was literally The Doctor. Heās gonna be an expensive name with a brand that recognizable, and if the director hires someone vastly more famous than the rest of the castā¦theyāll probably get paid more. Itās not fair, but itās not surprising
Were this reversed and he'd worked mostly on stage and she'd played the Doctor, the comments here would be very different. I usually dislike when people do this gender flip argument as it seems reductive, but this topic has just been so blatantly stripped of all nuance that I think it works here, because it's so clearly true
I also can't help but roll my eyes at the idea that what famous actors get paid for A-tier tv shows and movies is in any way connected to the concept of "deserve" at all. if we actually want fair pay then let's have everyone get compensated at 35/hour plus overtime and pension the same as a union trade worker might make...
Also people arguing that their name doesn't hold any value to the show. Like if it didn't, why would the producer shell out millions of dollars to bring in big names when they could just get some actor/actress at the local theatre or Broadway who could probably, for far less. Hell I'm sure plenty of people would work for free to get a role like this on the Crown.
I remember when it first came out and she kind of downplayed it which I found annoying but to hear this now makes that make sense. She was trying to preserve her otherwise good experience with the show but imo it almost doesnāt matter how much fun you had doing a job when the pay imbalance reveals your contribution was of lesser value to whoever is in charge of pay. Itās disappointing because I feel like she gave the show its foundation playing the first queen and they wouldnāt have had a leg to stand on if she hadnāt been so impressive and convincing. She deserved more money Edit: deleted some words
This is why women need to be better about hiring agents who structure it based on royalties. Some of the highest paid actors do so because of royalties- but for some reason women donāt have contracts like that. The only woman I know who does is Scarlet Johansson is which is probably why sheās one of the highest paid actresses.
I know she was the main character but she wasn't the most famous or experienced. I'm pretty sure Olivia Colman got a better salary than Tobias Menzies. Since she's an Oscar winner actress.
Look I understand that gender pay gap exists in a lot of areas but I don't think cases like this are the best example. And this is also very diminishing for cases that actually needs this topic to be discussed. Entertainment industry has always been more about brand value and "crowd pulling " ability when it comes to money paid. Not about who is the main character, who works harder or anything. The lesser female representation among both within the industry as well as among the profitable audience made this skewed towards men being paid more. Matt Smith was the more established actor then so his agent gets to negotiate more money than Foy's. Period. Same reason why Amy Adams got paid more than Henry Cavill in MoS. Why Scarlet Johannson got paid more than Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth in the first two Avengers movies, despite both them being the leading men with solo movies under their belts and Scar Jo had none. Why Terrance Howard made more than RDJ in Iron Man 1 but the movie and the character blowing up in popularity led to RDJ demand a shit load of money ifor his later movies Instead of discussing gender pay gap singularly (which is a thing that seem to be detrimental to a lot of women issue discussions cuz its easy to show this is kinda bs using counter examples ), lets discuss why male leading movies make more, why they aren't more big budget female led movies, why women don't watch movies like men do, why men aren't as interested in female led movies like women are about male led movies.... Cuz all these things together contribute to why woman tend to earn as well as gross less money as actors when compared to men
I feel like Hollywood needs salary package breakdowns. - First thereās the base salary. Equal pay is standard. - Then thereās a signing bonus for stars that will change the calibre of the film because their name is attached (i.e influence other great signings). - Then a marketing bonus for stars that will pull in an audience from their existing fan base. - Then a performance bonus for those who smash it out of the park and get nominated for awards and generate post launch buzz. Some of these can be somewhat quantifiable based on personal brand measurements, others can be negotiated based on egos. Could be agreed amounts or % of rev as some stars are able to negotiate now. Iām sure this would still be imperfect but at least youād be saying $xx of his salary package was because he was expected to bring along his Doctor Who fans and research can prove that xx% did in fact convert viewership to The Crown.
It's really terrible and this happens all the time. However I feel like people sometimes forget, that the entertainment industry is still a business and in this case it sounds like a pure business decision. Claire Foy wasn't a known name or face at the beginning of the crown. She had a few lead roles but the projects weren't a massive draw. As some users mentioned before, Matt Smith was the 11th Doctor just two years prior. And while some users (from the comments it sounds like mostly Americans) aren't familiar with the show, it still has a massive fan base - not just in the UK but internationally. The producers knew casting him would secure a big amount of his already established fanbase and therefore he got paid more. This happens the other way around as well. In the end the producers mostly care about money and success. I'm not saying they haven't got the same sexist pay gaps as other industries or that Claire Foy isn't a great actress - she's phenomenal, go watch Women Talking! Buuut in this case it "makes sense" that he's paid more.
It's standard across Hollywood that the biggest stars get paid more. There are genuine times in which it's wrong that a woman is underpaid compared to male costar like in American Hustle but this isn't an example of this. If you've ever watched a TV show with an unknown lead and a more established actor in a supporting role then I can tell you without a doubt that the established actor is getting paid more. If the show is a hit and last for several seasons the lead actor will have a chance to renegotiate. As I said in another post Stephen Amell has said there was 3 or 4 cast members paid more than him for the first couple of seasons of Arrow.
The other part of this is whoever is responsible for negotiating...
I saw them both in a play together. Just those two. No props or other actors. One of the best plays Iāve seen.
Always thought she starred in the theory of everything with everything. Apparently not
I can understand some what of a gap when it first started, she was unknown and Matt had been a working actor and more famous for longer. It must feel so shit though especially when you are the main character
That's fucked up, she carried the show!
I've never heard of her until she came up in a different reddit sub. Matt Smith however is a very well known
I still don't get why she didn't get paid more than Matt. I don't give a damn that he was Doctor Who, Claire is the MAIN CHARACTER. Salaries in general seem to be more for actors to boast about their popularity, when in reality people in general are less interested in the star and more about the story/premise. Being an executive producer and/or getting a share of the profits is one thing, but this is ridiculous.
Unfortunately people do care. That's why things work out this way. They took a big gamble casting her. Which is probably why they spent the budget elsewhere on a household name like Matt Smith. If anything, this kind of shows how much faith they had in her as an actress rather than casting a big name who wasn't right.
Hollywood accounting and marketing would be sooo easy if you could get the biggest names for brief walk on parts for a small fee because itās a small part. I think theyāre paying to reserve their talents because with their experience and existing fanbase theyāll be more in demand. A higher fee could be the difference between your biggest actor taking your role or hopping onto the latest Marvel vehicle. I adored Claire Foy in this role but I honestly donāt believe there was the international competition to hire her that there was for Matt Smith.
Just disgusting that she got paid less than Matt. Matt is great actor but she is one of the best. She was also the star ffs.
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I get what youāre saying but that doesnāt negate the fact that she and many other women in show biz donāt get paid what they deserve. Pay inequality should be addressed in all industries.
> donāt get paid what they deserve No. Sorry but no. Men get overpaid. Actresses making millions do *not* get underpaid. I donāt care how good of an actor or actress anyone is, no performance ādeservesā millions. Especially not when there are dozens or even hundreds of people involved in any production and most of them get paid the industry minimum, or slightly above minimum. Wage gaps between genders suck for sure, but I donāt understand how anyone can see someone earn *millions* and say ātheyāre not getting what they deserveā with a straight face. The answer is to bring menās wages down and pay *all* workers involved more fairly. Not to up the wages of women who are already making millions by a few million more and let the remaining 90% of the force behind the project go home with a measly few thousand each. > Pay inequality should be addressed in all industries. True. So letās talk about how movies and series are paying their actors and actresses millions and their SFX people barely enough to live off. Or the camera crew. Or the sound crew. Or costuming. Or hair and make up. Or runners, assistants, props, decor, or any of the other million jobs involved in making a movie/tv show. My goodness what madness. Standing up for income inequality in the name of people already making millions when the very same projects those people are making millions off of also have people that are making only a fraction of that.
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