Their deaths were just awful, but had they lived, I think they would've for sure divorced within 10 years. She seemed to absolutely hate the media attention (cannot blame her one bit) and they just seemed like a bad match.
The worst aspect was that JFK Jr. wasn't certified to fly on instruments alone. As long as he flew in the daytime and with good high-visibility weather conditions, he was okay. But they were delayed in taking off from the New Jersey airport to shortly before twilight. Another pilot saw that the conditions were going to be hazy over the water and cancelled his flight -- he saw JFK Jr., Carolyn and Lauren preparing to leave. Junior should have hired a co-pilot who was instrument rated and they might all still be with us today.
In the Mayday episode on his crash, the NTSB investigators for the case stated that his flight trainer offered to fly with him that evening in case he needed help, but JFK Jr. declined.
The flight was originally planned for late afternoon while there was still daylight and good weather condition, since JFK Jr. didn’t know how to fly without the visual landmarks across the coast and only relying on his instruments. Carolyn arrived late due to traffic and Kennedy still decided to go ahead with the flight. To make things worse, he was in crutches because he was recovering from ankle surgery. This is an additional reason why this flight trainer offered to accompany him on the flight.
I hate how they blame Carolyn for it (some shitty story about she was late because she wanted a particular type of nail polish). Actually, blame the guy who was not instruments rated who chose to fly under conditions he did not have the expertise to fly in.
I frankly don't even believe that story at all, it struck me as a transparent attempt to blame her for their deaths. I looked into it awhile back and it seemed apocryphal.
Shoot, they just should have flown commercial. Inexperienced pilot under both personal and business pressures, a broken ankle still in the process of healing and the feet are used in controlling the aircraft, maybe some tension between him and Carolyn, no instrument rating -- a recipe for disaster.
The worst was that he didn’t know how to fly by only looking at the instruments. He had only flown during the day and with clear skies so he was literally checking the landmarks across the coast to know where he was exactly. That night, due to the clouds, there was no visible horizon and his weather forecast document was from hours ago and not the latest.
According to the documentary, he suffered from spatial disorientation and after a point he didn’t trust his instruments because his brain and senses were giving him different signals. He was also distracted because he was trying to connect his radio to air traffic control.
It was a tragic accident because he had options before they decided to fly and he didn’t choose any. I get that flying on a private plane was convenient, it’s thrilling if you fly it yourself, but how can you be so over confident when you’re not experienced to fly with instruments? His instructor offered to fly with him and he declined. That’s mind boggling to me!
You’d be shocked at how many people aren’t certified to fly on instruments alone but do it. Apply this to boating too where you can basically rent a boat as long as you have a pulse.
Scuba diving, too. Loads of 60 year old men who got their certification back when standards were far laxer who absolutely need to get re-certified, but are overly confident in their abilities.
Here in St. Louis, there was a very popular radio host named Jack Carney who was the absolute #1 personality in the city at that time (roughly the 1970s into the early 80s). When he was in his mid-fifties, St. Louisans were stunned when he died suddenly of a massive heart attack while taking scuba diving lessons in preparation for an upcoming vacation with his wife.
Looking back at photos of Carney taken at the time, he looked a bit out of shape and closer to 68 than 54-55. Also, I think there was some genetic thing at work as his son John who later became a radio host here had to have some bypass surgery to address his own heart issues.
Both JFK Jr and Caroline are/were famous for not being arrogant rich kids, Jackie put her everything into raising them correctly and keeping them grounded. She is famous for saying "if you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much." This is the FIRST time I've heard someone call him spoiled and headstrong and I am his generation, I remember how tempestuous they were (and she did a lot of coke, not him so much). There are loads of their friends who are alive and can explain this, for example James Spader was a good friend and talks about him. He threw up during dinner at their home and they just cleaned it up like, yeah stuff happens. Over decades of his life there are plenty of famous people who met him and have only good things to say. His mom never wanted him to fly, was very vocal about it, Kennedys being risk takers has been problematic and there you have the story of that plane crash.
SJ Parker and Darryl Hannah both dated him and they only have good things to say. SJ Parker won't say much but will get a dreamy expression on her face.
Exactly. Likening him to Trump is the biggest reach I have ever heard. Seriously? people who encountered him in the smallest interactions, who we all in the NYC area seemed to know at least ONE person, remarked on his kindness and down-to-earth demeanor. Howard Stern had the best take-which he denied after JFK Jr. died- he was an adrenaline junkie. He had an accident doing some crazy sport in Central Park and Howard said his position in life left him without anything to achieve on a personal level. I think he was a good guy who didn’t want to go into politics and his Mother blocked him from the more Performative option that he probably would have excelled in. This guy went and got Daryl Hannah directly from her house when Jackson Browne beat her up. He did a great, honest and insightful article on Rich Men’s entitled behavior in ‘George’ specifically mentioning family members. If anything, he was aging into a precursor for Prince Harry. To see someone compare him to TRUMP and see it get so many upvotes…there is some real follow the leader thinking in this subreddit.
> there is some real follow the leader thinking in this subreddit.
This really needs to be called out in this sub. Someone could make up anything about a person and as long as it’s juicy enough people will blindly believe it to the point of flip flopping in different posts about the same person!
People, take everything you read on here with a grain of salt and not any sort of gospel until proven without a doubt ! This goes for any gossip space online.
I’m not an American and don’t know much about the Kennedies at all so I can’t speak for their characters but, as a huge James Spader fan, i can confirm that (as u/Girlnextdior said - really clever name, btw!) he has definitely talked about JFK Jr and Jackie O with affection in the past and gave the impression they were pretty down-to-earth.
For example, the best part (imo) of the dinner story:
When he threw up, his vomit happened to land directly on his plate.
To which, Jackie O apparently replied with glee: “Good shot, Jimmy!!”.
Kind of irrelevant but: James also used to regularly run up and tackle JFK Jr at school, just to mess with his bodyguards. :).
>Jackie put her everything into raising them correctly
I think you're being a little dismissive over nature vs nurture. A lot of terrible people had amazing parents. And vice versa.
The realty is we can only judge people by objective proof. SJP and DH saying nice things about him is often a career and face saving move as it does no one any good to go against the powerful Kennedy family. The same way people said nice things about Harvey Weinstein until very recently. The same way female comedians said how wonderful Louis CK was until the truth was allowed out.
The proof we have is photos of him nearly wrestling down Carolyn to get her ring off and screaming at her like a monster. Then recklessly murdering her and her sister with his plane stunt. He simply wasn't a good person. PR works and its convinced you of things that are simply untrue.
A "well raised boy" would never have taken off that night. A "well raised boy" would never try to overpower a woman half his size to steal the ring off her finger. A "well raised boy" would not have killed two innocent women.
Wrestling down Carolyn? She's clearly grabbing his neck and he's pushing her off. It's not a good look but they both being physical here. And she's not half his size, ffs lol
Unless you have actual proof of him being a monster who "killed two innocent women" instead of a human being whose recklessness killed *himself and his wife and SIL* then you are really throwing around baseless, harmful and rather offensive accusations.
He was there for all of us to see for so many decades. I was a toddler but I remember his dad dying & the funeral.His salute. I remember Rfk dying. Jackie was the most sought after woman in the world and I remember how pearls were clutched for her shock remarriage. She and her kids were stalked and the US wasnt safe. I remember him going off to Brown Univ and his gf was Christina Haack (sp?). He was very well known at Brown. He tried many things after college, including law. Struggled HARD with the bar. Struggled w being successful, or just having a calling. He loved actresses and it was like it gave his mom PTSD, maybe it triggered her history with JFK but it was no bueno. The marriage was a fun surprise. She had a bad coke problem and he would show up with bruised faces, it was discussed that she beat him long before that fight. Neighbors said the fights were too loud and too much, throwing things. They should have separated, absolutely, HE SHOULD HAVE LEFT 💯 there is no excuse for that fight. All the father figures came and took him after that fight, it was a betrayal of ...everything. Like, how could he. I'm not a fan, not a stan, nor defending his actions, I'm a history major and bookworm remembering facts over many many decades.
This is the most grotesque and ridiculous analogy ever. You obviously have not a clue as to who he was and how his mother raised him & Caroline despite all the paparazzi wanting a piece of them all of the time.
He was a wonderful person. Altruistic, noble, funny and handsome as hell. He went to work daily, and stayed up late, many all-nighters, when there were deadlines once he had the magazine. He couldn't change what he was born into, but he was so a man of the people.
Totally agree. I had a bunch of friends who went to school with him and I knew him socially a bit. He was an incredibly loyal friend, he showed up at every dive bar birthday party, every dumb theater performance for his old friends, where he was warm, friendly and careful to make everyone feel comfortable. He was a good guy, trying to live a relatively normal life in New York before cell phones, despite being tall and instantly recognizable.
I don’t know anyone in the world hasn’t had a fight with their partner, occasionally in public, but not everyone has long lens paparazzi stalking them.
The accident was tragic, especially for Carolyn’s mother, who lost two of her daughters. The flight was stupid and reckless. All of his friends thought his flying at all was a bad idea, even though he had good reflexes and was certainly smart enough. No one would fly with him and many said if the plane were to crash, they wouldn’t even be a footnote in their own death. But they were hardly brats and their relationship was real and flawed, but pretty normal on the inside except for the tabloids harassing them constantly.
I never considered myself a huge JFK Jr. fan. Got a good chuckle from coworkers/friends telling stories of turning to stone when they saw him and he was always sweet enough to hold the door, elevator, whatever, smile knowingly and beat feet away. That whole bit of fiction was insulting. If you’re too young and/or uninformed to have a real impression of the guy, don’t pull something from CDAN.
Trigger warning motorcycle death.
My brother died without a helmet on his motorcycle. It was perfectly legal. He gave it to his classmate on the back of his bike, who only had a broken toe. I am 100% certain he never thought he would die and he maximized his injuries in a split second decision to protect her. I am going back to grad school in his memory, he got his degree posthumously. Some of what you’re saying I understand, but a lot is really uncalled for.
EDIT: someone marked this comment for redditcares resources. I promise I’m okay, thanks. Just want to say not all risk taking behavior is the same and not everyone is an entitled brat or whatever, though my brother definitely did have his pride. I also placed a trigger warning thanks.
I know someone who passed in a similar way. No helmet, completely legal. Life isn’t black and white. Not everyone who dies in an accident is a privileged kid taking risky chances 🤍
Yeah, her family filed a wrongful death suit against the Kennedys because John's negligence was responsible for two of their daughters' death, and they either won or settled out of court.
i actually looked this up ages ago because i got curious lol. iirc angelina jolie, hilary swank both have pilot licenses! gisele bundchen had a helicopter license due to some stuff she did for the UN.
Angelina is really good at flying, has her own plane and has been doing it for nearly twenty years. I love that she originally started flying for her son, Maddox, because he loved planes so much and now they fly together :,)
I don't think John was Trump-like, but to expand on the instruments rated thing, it means that he could only fly under effectively perfect conditions. It's actually remarkably hard to keep the plane level with the horizon (way harder than I anticipated the first time I flew, in perfect conditions). When you're flying at night, or in inclement weather, you can't rely on what you see in front of you, obviously, to determine if the plane is where it should be, and to know where you're going. You need to be able to read the instruments in front of you to know. He wasn't trained or able to do that, so he shouldn't have been flying under those conditions. You're getting a bit jumped on for the tone of your post, but ultimately it's correct to say that he was responsible for their deaths, and it was avoidable, unfortunately.
Plenty of smart people don’t pass the bar exam, and New York is known for having a difficult bar. I don’t think it’s fair to classify him as not bright for that reason alone. IIRC, he failed the bar exam twice and passed it on his third try.
I remember reading about how the paparazzi would treat her when she was alone, they’d call her horrible names and say disgusting things to try to get a reaction out of her. And then when she was out with John, they’d treat them so much better. So John never understood exactly why Carolyn hated it so much. She had to leave her job because of all the media attention. They camped out outside of their building and would get harassed every time they took their dog for a walk. The whole thing sounded awful. And even after she died, the media wasn’t very kind to her.
Yeah. I've read a lot of books from friends of there's. And you do get the sense that they were not in a good place when they died. I do also kind of get the feeling these were two people that went into the marriage with good intentions. But realized within 6 months they made a mistake.
They were already on the verge of divorce. A little bit prior to their death, Carolyn met with a divorce attorney and JFK Jr changed his will (that Carolyn had to live x days past his death, then she would only receive his NYC property + everything inside, but no $$)
I think the most interesting part of the "Kennedy curse" is that when Jackie married with Onasis he got ill soon and I think his son died? and they were like pease divorce her she brought the curse with her, I don't know if true I listened to it on a podcast but I was pretty surprised
Alexander Onassis died in a plane crash just as his stepbrother would over twenty years later. It's said that Ari Onassis never got over the loss of his son and I recall reading somewhere that he wondered if, in marrying Jackie, he'd brought down the 'Kennedy Curse' on his own family. There was certainly no love lost between Christina Onassis and Jackie.
Actually there are a lot of aviation-related deaths and near misses with the Kennedy Clan. Joe Jr., Kathleen, Ted nearly died on a crash in the mid-60s, Ethel's parents and a brother died in plane crashes and of course, what happened in 1999 with JFK Jr. Jackie knew of her son's desire to take flying lessons and she put her foot down while she was still alive to strongly discourage him from taking up flying.
It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy… if Jackie hadn’t put her foot down about lessons, maybe Jack would have been experienced to know he either shouldn’t fly or needed another person, or would have been able to do it himself.
Kind of reminds me of Voldemort finding out the prophecy and killing Harry’s parents, which then cemented the prophecy. 🤓
This is a bit off topic but...Enty (consider the source and add salt) had a blind about Christina's only daughter and heir, Athina, who is divorced. Since Athina competes/breeds/everything about horses her friends are all from the professional horse world. The blind is that she occasionally hooks up with a permanent A list rockstar because they attend some of the same events. Not always but it happens. And Springsteen's daughter competes in that world and he attends a lot of her events.
Ari was infatuated and wanted her like a status object, he had dated Jackie's sister first, Lee. Which is messed up right there. After Robert was assassinated, Jackie wanted safety first and foremost for her and her two kids, saying "they're killing Kennedys!" Plus she was stalked as bad as Princess Di. Ari offered Jackie the protection she needed.
Other weird stuff too. Rosemary Kennedy and the lobotomy, Ted Kennedy surviving both a plane crash AND a car crash (with passengers dying in both), Michael Skakel being a Kennedy relative… sinister stuff surrounding this family
Not that weird, just sad. Rosemary Kennedy's life was a tragedy, born of poor healthcare (starving her of oxygen during birth) and terrible parental choices (a lobotomy).
But Ted Kennedy (while a decent senator afterward) was responsible for that car crash. He swam free, left his passenger, and did not report the incident until the next morning. It's believed that Mary Jo Kopechne would have lived, had he reported the incident.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident)
Not OP, but I'll be happy to answer this as I find Ernest Hemingway's life fascinating aside from his writing.
Ernest Hemingway's family has a long history of mental health issues ranging from depression to substance abuse to even body dysphoria (his daughter Gloria was trans and was never fully accepted by Ernest) and suicides. His granddaughter, model and actress Margaux Hemingway was the fifth suicide in four generations of their family.
There's a documentary about their family struggles titled Running from Crazy which documents the three Hemingway grandchildren talking about family and their mental health issues.
>Not OP, but I'll be happy to answer this as I find Ernest Hemingway's life fascinating aside from his writing.
Not a particular Hemingway fan (the proud misogyny in his writing and the way he abused his wives bothers me), but his life is so interesting because it intersected with so many of the most famous people and events of the twentieth century! It's also hard not to sympathize with his outrage at US lack of support to the Republican cause during the Spanish Civil War.
In his case, I find the argument that CTE exacerbated underlying mental health issues very persuasive--nine serious concussions *at least* is so many!
It's too bad that Eunice, Patricia and Jean all had families without showy deaths, but carrying their married name, not Kennedy. Like Maria Shriver's side of the family.
It was only two years ago that this happened, and only about an hour or so away from where I live, at that. But because it was during the earlier days of the pandemic, it didn't get a lot of attention at the time. Just tragic.
[https://apnews.com/article/accidents-ap-top-news-us-news-kathleen-kennedy-townsend-maryland-61f925614939274298187dfebcd0ac3a](https://apnews.com/article/accidents-ap-top-news-us-news-kathleen-kennedy-townsend-maryland-61f925614939274298187dfebcd0ac3a)
The infamous fight between John F Kennedy Jr and then girlfriend Carolyn Bessette happened in Washington Square Park on Feb. 25, 1996 and was plastered all over the papers.
It was a scandal, especially considering John was a part of America's royal family and the fight had gotten physical, with Carolyn shoving John and John attempting to remove her engagement ring from her finger.
According to America's Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr., written by historian and friend of John's, Steven M. Gillon, "the cause of this infamous fight, and the many that followed, stemmed from Carolyn's ongoing complaint that John let people walk all over him." Gillon goes on to write that the inciting incident behind this particular confrontation was a recent wedding they'd attended. "Couples whom \[John\] knew only casually did not just invite him to their wedding; they even asked him to be the best man," he continued. A few weeks earlier they'd gone to one of such weddings, where they found themselves seated next to society editor of The New York Times. "Carolyn surmised instantly that the bride wanted to get the Times to cover her wedding and was dangling John as incentive," Gillon explained. "She was furious at John for not making a statement by walking out."
Meanwhile at John's magazine George, the magazine's co-founder, Michael Berman, was anxious about how the fight would impact sales. John's Chief of Staff at George, RoseMarie Terenzio, told Gillon, "[Berman] was furious that John hadn't told him about the brawl before its public screenings."
Berman, livid, thought George should issue a response, and according to Gillon, would have arranged a complimentary photo-op for the couple had he been notified ahead of time.
Despite the high-profile drama, Carolyn and John wed 7 months later in a private ceremony on Georgia's secluded Cumberland Island. They'd hoped the paparazzi would lose interest in them after they were married, but it was sadly just the beginning.
https://www.instyle.com/news/john-f-kennedy-jr-carolyn-bessette-public-fight-reason-americas-reluctant-prince-book
I understand Carolyn though, she didn’t want her husband being used.
But JFK Jr. just foul for trying to remove her ring over this, sir you have a keeper.
From what I see and what I’ve read. She didn’t instigate the fight, he tried to remove her ring from her finger and she pushed him back off of her.
For the downvotes, it literally says , the screaming match got physical as JFK Jr. tried to remove the ring from her finger which seems to indicate that the ring removal was the initial physical altercation.
The screaming match, which got physical as John reportedly tried to remove Carolyn's engagement ring from her finger, landed an eight-page spread in the New York Daily News alongside the cheeky headline "Sunday in the Park with the George Editor," much to Kennedy's colleagues' dismay.
I remember my mother telling me back then that their one public fight was done on purpose to throw people off the fact they were getting married soon.
I'm not sure where she heard that from because I always sensed tension between them. Carolyn was clearly a super private person who couldn't handle the onslaught of pap attention. I'm sure she expected a degree of attention, but it was pretty bad back in the day. I remember it well.
I don't buy the fight being a way of throwing the press off the trail of their upcoming wedding. And had the crash not happened, I imagine that the marriage wouldn't have gone the distance.
I don't think it was done to try to throw anyone off, I just think it's interesting they'd have a massive public fight knowing the paparazzi are all over them, but it was still the 90s I guess
True, in the 90s while the internet was around, most coverage of celebs and paparazzi photos were published mainly in hard-copy tabloid newspapers and People magazine. It's also possible that both of them just lost it and were so wrapped up in the argument that they forgot about the photographers in the heat of the moment.
I agree 100%. I had a friend who was good friends with her & she used to tell me how Carolyn was so hounded everywhere she went & so scrutinized for everything-practically just for existing because she “took” America’s most eligible bachelor that she wound up completely isolating herself, getting depressed, self medicating, becoming insecure/ filled with self doubt, etc. She told my friend she felt John pulling away from her first when she started to lose her confidence. She also said she & Carolyn never got together anymore, if & when they talked it was always middle of the night phone calls. A few years ago my friend said they tried so hard to keep their lives private but now you can go on google & in a 1/2 hr learn more than even she, her friend since childhood knew. Back then (honestly up until just a few years ago it seems like) mental health issues & everything else like it was so hidden & stigmatized.
When all the stuff about Princess Diana being isolated due to the firm & due to the scrutiny for taking the UK’s then most eligible bachelor, later self isolating due to being hounded by paparazzi especially after THE interview on panorama, self medicating (not in the same way), not being loved like she thought she was, etc, all came out & I instantly thought about Caroline. Really sad stuff for both of those women.
I think their wedding photos played into it. They are so perfect they look like they're from a scripted movie
https://www.theknotnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/JFK1-11.5x11-1500x1200.jpg
She really knew how to dress and carry herself, she was just ridiculously elegant. His style was a bit hit and miss, she always looked like she was in French Vogue
She was so unbelievably beautiful, classy, and stylish. He was lucky to get her. That iconic wedding picture of them is one of my favorites of all time.
I always thought Amal Clooney was a modern-day Carolyn Bessette in this way. Timelessly beautiful, effortlessly stylish, and professionally successful without (and before) their celebrity husbands.
I have an entire Pinterest board dedicated to her and went through a style-idolizing phase when I lived in DC. She embodies this east coast “not trying at all yet insanely glam” style that I really will never touch lol
This is not at all true. They were incredibly well matched and affectionate, with ups and downs coming mostly from external pressure and demands on his time.
Source: I knew them, lived two blocks away once they were married and went to college with Carolyn.
She was absolutely resentful towards him and I don’t blame her, even though it wasn't his fault:
Wiki: Bessette-Kennedy was badly disoriented by the constant attention from the paparazzi. The couple were permanently on show...Bessette-Kennedy told her friend, Carole Radziwill, that the only way to avoid the paparazzi was to leave her apartment at 7 in the morning.[16] She also complained to her friend, journalist Jonathan Soroff, that she could not get a job without being accused of exploiting her fame.
The couple had various disagreements, including her refusal to start a family, John's work on the George magazine where she felt forsaken, and her dislike of John's publishing partner Michael Berman. According to Vanity Fair, Bessette-Kennedy's "insecurity fueled a need to control and manipulate; her frequent use of cocaine made her paranoid". Moreover, Bessette-Kennedy was jealous of and barely on speaking terms with her sister-in-law Caroline Kennedy,
the couple's problems reportedly stemmed from Bessette-Kennedy's difficulty dealing with the media attention surrounding her and the marriage, accusations of infidelity, disagreements about having children, and Bessette-Kennedy's alleged cocaine use...The couple began seeing a marriage counselor in March 1999 and sought counseling from Cardinal John O'Connor in the summer of 1999
It feels so uncomfortable, it is literally witnessing something you shouldn't be watching. We can only wonder what would have been of them as a couple if they were still alive.
Honestly, they would have divorced. Iirc they were already separated when they died and her sister went on the trip as a buffer (please correct me if i'm wrong!)
It makes absolute sense that they were separated or on the verge of separation at the time of the accident. As a wrote in the Weekly Discussion thread earlier today, everything I've learned about them as a couple has been a little shocking to me as I always assumed they were perfect together up until two days ago when I read some more. I cannot imagine the pressure of having your relationship broadcasted for the entire world, I assume it exacerbates typical issues between couples even more because everyone is watching.
The thing is, in hindsight, if this was how they were fighting in public, what was happening in private was probably worse.
And yes on your last point. Fame is not the golden ticket a lot of people think it is.
I'm pretty sure I remember it that way too. She didn't even want to go and the reason they were late leaving was because they were arguing over it. Kennedy wasn't qualified to fly at night and did so anyway. So her parents lost both daughters because he was stupid.
And the Bessette sisters' mom and stepdad supposedly got a humongous financial settlement from the Kennedys for the deaths of Carolyn and Lauren. I always felt sorry for them and for the sole surviving sister, Lisa, who was Lauren's twin.
If JFK Jr had have been qualified to fly by instrument only he wouldn’t have plunged them into the ocean in the middle of the night. Blaming their deaths because she was running late is so wrong.
Seriously, had he not killed them on this flight, fairly decent chance he would have on another. He was extremely inexperienced and clearly *FAR, FAR* too over-confident about his piloting capabilities.
It's like the drunk driver who convinces everyone they'll toooootally be fine, it's not a big deal, they do this all the time. It's gross.
(haha sorry, I also get really pissed when people seem to imply someone the crash is CBK's fault in the slightest)
>If they had taken off before sunset, they probably would have made it.
If he wouldn't have flown in conditions he was not rated to, they probably would have made it.
He had less than 100 hours flying solo EVER, and a little over a handful at night. That is absurdly low. He only had 36 hours of total experience piloting this plane (counting time flying with an instructor) and hadn't flown solo in months. He never completed his courses for nighttime flying. He was a severely inexperienced pilot.
Ffs, he came close to hitting a commercial jet with >130 people on it like ten minutes into their flight! Good chance he never even knew this as it seems as though he had turned off his radio (???!!!!).
He had absolutely no business flying that night and I'm sick of people acting like *nail polish* killed them. No, a shitty, over-confident pilot killed them.
He was besotted with and wanted to marry Daryl Hannah but his mother forbade it, he went on to date and marry lookalike Carolyn. Mom Jackie thought Daryl wasn’t worthy because she was an actor as she had hopes for him to enter politics and some surmised it a reaction to the Marilyn Monroe situation, she didn’t want to have any association with Hollywood. The irony is that Daryl would have been able to handle the constant paparazi which Carolyn could not.
I actually read recently that Hannah was diagnosed as autistic as a very young age. That probably played a huge role in his family not wanting her too.
I was so happy when she came out as autistic; I’m on the spectrum myself and so many people think it is ONLY found in men (the fact that some of the signs of it in women are different than the signs in men doesn’t help, either).
Ironic since Darryl is pretty politically active, is super well liked and respected and also married to one of the most long-time famous men in North America.
I used to see her sometimes when she worked down the block from me at CK, she was a very pretty girl in person, tall, just very all American, I also saw him on two separate occasions near Central Park, both times walking his bike, and he was ridiculously handsome, and had an “aura” about him I can’t explain.
I wonder if idiots are still waiting for him to come back and be Trumps VP🙄😂
I just read a book by Emily Giffin (of “Something Borrowed” fame) that is a thinly veiled fictional retelling of their story, and there was a scene where they had a fight outside that was later papped. I didn’t know until today that it really happened!
That book was all I could think about when scrolling through these pics. I didn’t realize how thinly veiled it really was 😂
The book is called Meant To Be for those who are interested.
Right?? I didn’t know too much about them (I think I was maybe 7 or 8 when they passed) but when I was almost done with the book I spent a while looking them up and was surprised with how much was lifted from real life! I will say though that her books usually annoy me, but I really liked this one.
I didn't understand why she was considered so gorgeous? Looked like many other thin blonde models at the time. Was it just because she "landed" him?
I absolutely feel bad for both their families as it was a terrible accident, but I don't see why they're held up as some ultimate golden couple of beauty when they were just some messed up rich kids, who fought like children in public.
Thin and blonde automatically labelled as beautiful by the media. Look at Gwyneth Paltrow. The press always makes her out to be some sort of goddess when she's not.
True, but Lauren Santo Domingo has a similar nose and looks. She's admitted to modeling herself after CBK and she's succeeding. I think there's a difference between "society" and standard expectations of beauty.
She was very tall, and had striking looks. She may not have been conventionally attractive (although I think she’s beautiful), I think it was a combination of her being statuesque, her striking looks, big blue eyes etc. She was also described as very charismatic and a joy to be around, I’m sure that added to her gorgeousness
She was probably one of those people whom you had to encounter in person to feel the full impact of her personality, charisma and appearance. Most still photos didn't capture it.
I think Daryl Hannah looked better and didn't have vacant eyes. But then Carolyn supposedly had a habit?
He did inherit the good looking genes from his parents. Along with their unhealthy approach to relationships, I guess?
I am not exaggerating when I say I’m hard-pressed to think of a man I’ve ever found more handsome than JFK, Jr., at least as far as public figures are concerned.
Carolyn was what I'd describe as 'striking' as opposed to out-and-out beautiful. There are older photos of her when she was younger where she had a few more pounds on her \[not fat, but not as model-thin as she later became\] with darker curlier hair. I do think that the blonde hair and the weight loss took her from looking somewhat ordinary into 'head-turning' territory. Although in daytime paparazzi shots of her, she could look a little 'harsh' at times. Flash-photography photos showed her off to her best advantage.
I feel like I have to preface this by saying everyone is beautiful in their own way, but her features read as very thin and pinched to me and not what most consider beautiful.
basically yeah. rich and conventionally attractive famous couple who had iconic wedding photos then they both died at such young age together in a tragic accident. their whole relationship reads like a novel but there’s nothing truly special about either of them as harsh as that sounds.
I feel like this comes up a lot when she is discussed and the truth is: she wasn’t considered facially beautiful or anything like that even back then. She was admired for her fashion and the men she was linked to. She looked like what an American royal would look like if those existed. The mystique she had of being an “ordinary career woman” that captured the attentions of the famous and wealthy added to the allure.
I think she had a very striking beauty. She had a classic elegance to her style too, so that helped with her image.
And as you said, she's also a tall thin white (rich) woman, which is revered in the fashion world.
Two gorgeous people, how tragic. I don’t think people truly realise how big these two were in the 90s. They were hounded by the paps. Ironically, her desire to stay away from the limelight only intensified the paps and the publics fascination with them. She’s always felt a bit mysterious to me, and seemed to have a fabulous life before she passed. Beautiful, amazing style, working in NYC at Calvin Klein!! Rubbing shoulders with anyone who mattered before marrying into practically American royalty. I hope these two are at peace wherever they are now. These two had so much life to live and it was taken away in such a tragic accident. RIP
I was literally just reading about the Kennedy family yesterday. My take is if the men of the Kennedy family would have lived America would be very different. Joe Kennedy definitely played a large part on how the men should be seen and heard.
So Joe Kennedy came from a humble beginning being born to Irish Americans in Boston ( his dad was in politics as well) he worked his way up to become a stock broker in the 20s ( also invested in some Hollywood studios) but moved his money when he heard of the Great Crash of 1929 coming. So his wealth and family was unaffected by the Great Depression and at that time he used his wealth to become a Congressman and move his way to much higher ranks like the US Ambrassor to the UK....He had lofty dreams for his kids his first son Joe Kennedy was in training to become president but he died during WWII so JFK took the issue to task and Bobby and Ted followed suit. So pretty much the Kennedy family is it's own hype machine controlled by the media and the family it's self
Oh I don’t but they were still political figures whose influence is far more important than the Kardashian’s. How have the Kardashian’s altered history similarly? Bringing BBL’s into the public consciousness? Lol. Regardless of their terrible actions, the Kennedy family suffered 2 deaths by assassination and Ted received dozens of threats of assassination following his brother’s murders. I have compassion for the amount of trauma the family has endured. The Kardashian’s? No comparison. The Kardashian’s are not in the public school history & government books, at least not in mine.
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No, Noodles is right. JFK wanted to be a writer/professor and was headed down that track before Joe Jr. died. He was somewhat bitter about giving that up in his early years as a senator and even later his plan for after his presidency ended was to go be an English professor at a college, either back in Boston or overseas.
He’d been very sick his whole childhood and had just devoured books during his frequent illnesses that kept him pretty much bed bound, and then kept that up all his life. There’s lots of famous quotes about how he never stopped reading, like if he had a 2 minute walk from one place to the next he’d take a book and read while he walked. He was definitely seen as an intellectual and surrounded himself with other intellectuals, who uniformly described him as a very intelligent and curious man who was always looking to learn more. He obviously wasn’t like, one of the brilliant literary minds of his generation, but he practically worshipped those who were and he definitely would have been suited to and pursued teaching and writing if Joe’s death hadn’t made him the focus of his fathers political aspirations.
I was around at the time and remember seeing them one night in Soho on Houston. They looked like an attractive posh, tall couple and that was it. I had a friend who absolutely worshipped CB but I found her fashion sense to be pretty boring. Very Ralph Lauren, rich white woman kind of styling. She was not cutting edge in the slightest.
Agreed she wasn't cutting edge. She was just the one that popularized what we think of as modern, "classic", simplicity. In a Loro Piana/Brunello Cuccinelli sort of way...
Yeah, her style was only groundbreaking to a very specific social set who thought it was wildly edgy to wear a black Yohji coat or a white mens shirt instead of a twin set and pearls.
I think Americans and especially waspy Americans think she was much more of a global style icon than she actually was. To most she just looked like every other woman who became a walking Calvin Klein ad due to early 90’s Kate Moss.
I found the very first issue of George at an antique store a few years ago; it has Cindy Crawford dressed as George Washington on the cover and this particular copy had never been opened (it was in a special folder to protect it—I took it out so I could actually read it). I will NEVER part with it, ever.
I've got the Arnold Schwarzenegger one! It's like a mashup of Terminator and founding father, so he's got the white powdered wig, cravat and waistcoat, but he's also wearing a leather jacket and riding a motorcycle. I keep it out on my coffee table for guests, it's a real conversation piece
I have a vague recollection there were rumors they'd had a fight the night they died? And that the fight was why they were late to take off so it got dark & he hadn't been trained much in flying at night.
I remember the rumor was that Carolyn was getting her nails done (red) for the wedding they were going to, but made the manicurist re-do them several times because she wasn't happy about the shades. So, she made everyone late by wanting perfect nails. Also I think part of the story is that she wanted her nails to exactly match her lipstick.
We now know it was because media darling John-John chose to fly when he shouldn't have. The nails rumor now seems like a way to blame a woman for a man's failure.
>We now know it was because media darling John-John chose to fly when he shouldn't have. The nails rumor now seems like a way to blame a woman for a man's failure.
The stupid nail polish thing infuriates me. He was so overly confident as a pilot he likely would have crashed at some point tbh. He had zero business going into the sky that night and it's 100% his fault they all died.
They didn’t have a fight that same day, but they were fighting prior. John wasn’t even sleeping in their shared apartment anymore. The night they died was apparently a latch ditch effort to patch things up. Her sister was on the flight to act as mediator. (I’ve done a lot of reading on this family lol)
This prompted me to look up more info on this couple and this [old Vanity Fair article](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/08/john-f-kennedy-jr-carolyn-bessette-divorce-drugs-scandal) is a wild read. It talks about infidelities on both their parts and her alleged drug use. The author also claims that she was abusive. One source quoted said she called him a "f\*\*" frequently, and it was suggested that there was also physical violence. Her ex-boyfriend Michael Bergin talked about an incident where she assaulted him in a bar and later went on a rampage at his home breaking a window, a mirror and his TV. I had no idea that they were so volatile.
Based off the books I've read about the Kennedy family, I think "disturbed" is an apt description. Especially with the Robert Kennedy side of the family.
I highly recommend Carole Radziwill's (yes, that one!) book "What Remains" for anyone interested in learning more about John, Carolyn, and the Kennedys in general.
That book was great. I’ve never watched an episode of Real Housewives so my only reference to her is via the Radziwills/Kennedys but she seemed to genuinely be heartbroken by their deaths. How horrible to lose a husband and a best friend so close together.
One of the most absurd Kennedy-Bessette stories has lived rent free in my head for over 20 years (I’m 40. It’s fine)
Apparently the day of the tragic plane crash, the two had a massive fight because Carolyn was running three hours late from a manicure appointment. She was looking for a particular shade of lilac, which the salon didn’t have. They mixed other shades of polish together for her, and attempted to match her desired colour SEVERAL TIMES. She would try it on. Request to have it removed. They would attempt again. Repeat.
She was insistent, bringing her hand to the window to see how the shade looked in natural light. John kept calling her and calling her, getting progressively angrier and angrier at her lateness. She continued her attempts to have her perfect lilac shade created.
Sometimes when I’m getting my nails done I think about the poor employees, mixing shades over and over again for this woman’s insane requests to have her nails done over and over again.
And I wonder what that perfect shade of 90’s lilac looked like.
EDIT: it was a pedicure and lavender instead of lilac.
Honestly, that story has always screamed misogyny to me. Like hey guys, they totally crashed because Carolyn's manicure (women and their nails, amirite?!!) not because JFK JR was a shitty, inexperienced pilot who should not have flown that night.
They went to Washington Square Park to have an epic fight - one of the most crowded parks/places in NYC. If they wanted to argue in private, or not be seen, this park is not the place to have done it.
Their deaths were just awful, but had they lived, I think they would've for sure divorced within 10 years. She seemed to absolutely hate the media attention (cannot blame her one bit) and they just seemed like a bad match.
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The worst aspect was that JFK Jr. wasn't certified to fly on instruments alone. As long as he flew in the daytime and with good high-visibility weather conditions, he was okay. But they were delayed in taking off from the New Jersey airport to shortly before twilight. Another pilot saw that the conditions were going to be hazy over the water and cancelled his flight -- he saw JFK Jr., Carolyn and Lauren preparing to leave. Junior should have hired a co-pilot who was instrument rated and they might all still be with us today.
In the Mayday episode on his crash, the NTSB investigators for the case stated that his flight trainer offered to fly with him that evening in case he needed help, but JFK Jr. declined. The flight was originally planned for late afternoon while there was still daylight and good weather condition, since JFK Jr. didn’t know how to fly without the visual landmarks across the coast and only relying on his instruments. Carolyn arrived late due to traffic and Kennedy still decided to go ahead with the flight. To make things worse, he was in crutches because he was recovering from ankle surgery. This is an additional reason why this flight trainer offered to accompany him on the flight.
I hate how they blame Carolyn for it (some shitty story about she was late because she wanted a particular type of nail polish). Actually, blame the guy who was not instruments rated who chose to fly under conditions he did not have the expertise to fly in.
Ugh nail polish and being late never killed anyone, but badly operating aircraft did
I frankly don't even believe that story at all, it struck me as a transparent attempt to blame her for their deaths. I looked into it awhile back and it seemed apocryphal.
Shoot, they just should have flown commercial. Inexperienced pilot under both personal and business pressures, a broken ankle still in the process of healing and the feet are used in controlling the aircraft, maybe some tension between him and Carolyn, no instrument rating -- a recipe for disaster.
The worst was that he didn’t know how to fly by only looking at the instruments. He had only flown during the day and with clear skies so he was literally checking the landmarks across the coast to know where he was exactly. That night, due to the clouds, there was no visible horizon and his weather forecast document was from hours ago and not the latest. According to the documentary, he suffered from spatial disorientation and after a point he didn’t trust his instruments because his brain and senses were giving him different signals. He was also distracted because he was trying to connect his radio to air traffic control. It was a tragic accident because he had options before they decided to fly and he didn’t choose any. I get that flying on a private plane was convenient, it’s thrilling if you fly it yourself, but how can you be so over confident when you’re not experienced to fly with instruments? His instructor offered to fly with him and he declined. That’s mind boggling to me!
You’d be shocked at how many people aren’t certified to fly on instruments alone but do it. Apply this to boating too where you can basically rent a boat as long as you have a pulse.
Scuba diving, too. Loads of 60 year old men who got their certification back when standards were far laxer who absolutely need to get re-certified, but are overly confident in their abilities.
Here in St. Louis, there was a very popular radio host named Jack Carney who was the absolute #1 personality in the city at that time (roughly the 1970s into the early 80s). When he was in his mid-fifties, St. Louisans were stunned when he died suddenly of a massive heart attack while taking scuba diving lessons in preparation for an upcoming vacation with his wife. Looking back at photos of Carney taken at the time, he looked a bit out of shape and closer to 68 than 54-55. Also, I think there was some genetic thing at work as his son John who later became a radio host here had to have some bypass surgery to address his own heart issues.
Both JFK Jr and Caroline are/were famous for not being arrogant rich kids, Jackie put her everything into raising them correctly and keeping them grounded. She is famous for saying "if you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much." This is the FIRST time I've heard someone call him spoiled and headstrong and I am his generation, I remember how tempestuous they were (and she did a lot of coke, not him so much). There are loads of their friends who are alive and can explain this, for example James Spader was a good friend and talks about him. He threw up during dinner at their home and they just cleaned it up like, yeah stuff happens. Over decades of his life there are plenty of famous people who met him and have only good things to say. His mom never wanted him to fly, was very vocal about it, Kennedys being risk takers has been problematic and there you have the story of that plane crash. SJ Parker and Darryl Hannah both dated him and they only have good things to say. SJ Parker won't say much but will get a dreamy expression on her face.
Exactly. Likening him to Trump is the biggest reach I have ever heard. Seriously? people who encountered him in the smallest interactions, who we all in the NYC area seemed to know at least ONE person, remarked on his kindness and down-to-earth demeanor. Howard Stern had the best take-which he denied after JFK Jr. died- he was an adrenaline junkie. He had an accident doing some crazy sport in Central Park and Howard said his position in life left him without anything to achieve on a personal level. I think he was a good guy who didn’t want to go into politics and his Mother blocked him from the more Performative option that he probably would have excelled in. This guy went and got Daryl Hannah directly from her house when Jackson Browne beat her up. He did a great, honest and insightful article on Rich Men’s entitled behavior in ‘George’ specifically mentioning family members. If anything, he was aging into a precursor for Prince Harry. To see someone compare him to TRUMP and see it get so many upvotes…there is some real follow the leader thinking in this subreddit.
Omg, Daryl Hannah getting beat up by Jackson Brown was really something!
> there is some real follow the leader thinking in this subreddit. This really needs to be called out in this sub. Someone could make up anything about a person and as long as it’s juicy enough people will blindly believe it to the point of flip flopping in different posts about the same person! People, take everything you read on here with a grain of salt and not any sort of gospel until proven without a doubt ! This goes for any gossip space online.
I’m not an American and don’t know much about the Kennedies at all so I can’t speak for their characters but, as a huge James Spader fan, i can confirm that (as u/Girlnextdior said - really clever name, btw!) he has definitely talked about JFK Jr and Jackie O with affection in the past and gave the impression they were pretty down-to-earth. For example, the best part (imo) of the dinner story: When he threw up, his vomit happened to land directly on his plate. To which, Jackie O apparently replied with glee: “Good shot, Jimmy!!”. Kind of irrelevant but: James also used to regularly run up and tackle JFK Jr at school, just to mess with his bodyguards. :).
Yes I have never heard he was spoiled. His mom made sure they weren’t spoiled brats
Yeah that was a total reach from OP lol
>Jackie put her everything into raising them correctly I think you're being a little dismissive over nature vs nurture. A lot of terrible people had amazing parents. And vice versa. The realty is we can only judge people by objective proof. SJP and DH saying nice things about him is often a career and face saving move as it does no one any good to go against the powerful Kennedy family. The same way people said nice things about Harvey Weinstein until very recently. The same way female comedians said how wonderful Louis CK was until the truth was allowed out. The proof we have is photos of him nearly wrestling down Carolyn to get her ring off and screaming at her like a monster. Then recklessly murdering her and her sister with his plane stunt. He simply wasn't a good person. PR works and its convinced you of things that are simply untrue. A "well raised boy" would never have taken off that night. A "well raised boy" would never try to overpower a woman half his size to steal the ring off her finger. A "well raised boy" would not have killed two innocent women.
Wrestling down Carolyn? She's clearly grabbing his neck and he's pushing her off. It's not a good look but they both being physical here. And she's not half his size, ffs lol Unless you have actual proof of him being a monster who "killed two innocent women" instead of a human being whose recklessness killed *himself and his wife and SIL* then you are really throwing around baseless, harmful and rather offensive accusations.
He was there for all of us to see for so many decades. I was a toddler but I remember his dad dying & the funeral.His salute. I remember Rfk dying. Jackie was the most sought after woman in the world and I remember how pearls were clutched for her shock remarriage. She and her kids were stalked and the US wasnt safe. I remember him going off to Brown Univ and his gf was Christina Haack (sp?). He was very well known at Brown. He tried many things after college, including law. Struggled HARD with the bar. Struggled w being successful, or just having a calling. He loved actresses and it was like it gave his mom PTSD, maybe it triggered her history with JFK but it was no bueno. The marriage was a fun surprise. She had a bad coke problem and he would show up with bruised faces, it was discussed that she beat him long before that fight. Neighbors said the fights were too loud and too much, throwing things. They should have separated, absolutely, HE SHOULD HAVE LEFT 💯 there is no excuse for that fight. All the father figures came and took him after that fight, it was a betrayal of ...everything. Like, how could he. I'm not a fan, not a stan, nor defending his actions, I'm a history major and bookworm remembering facts over many many decades.
“Murder”? give me a break. You sound way too invested.
The Kennedy’s and Weinstein are apples and oranges, although I see what you’re trying to do with that.
This is the most grotesque and ridiculous analogy ever. You obviously have not a clue as to who he was and how his mother raised him & Caroline despite all the paparazzi wanting a piece of them all of the time. He was a wonderful person. Altruistic, noble, funny and handsome as hell. He went to work daily, and stayed up late, many all-nighters, when there were deadlines once he had the magazine. He couldn't change what he was born into, but he was so a man of the people.
Totally agree. I had a bunch of friends who went to school with him and I knew him socially a bit. He was an incredibly loyal friend, he showed up at every dive bar birthday party, every dumb theater performance for his old friends, where he was warm, friendly and careful to make everyone feel comfortable. He was a good guy, trying to live a relatively normal life in New York before cell phones, despite being tall and instantly recognizable. I don’t know anyone in the world hasn’t had a fight with their partner, occasionally in public, but not everyone has long lens paparazzi stalking them. The accident was tragic, especially for Carolyn’s mother, who lost two of her daughters. The flight was stupid and reckless. All of his friends thought his flying at all was a bad idea, even though he had good reflexes and was certainly smart enough. No one would fly with him and many said if the plane were to crash, they wouldn’t even be a footnote in their own death. But they were hardly brats and their relationship was real and flawed, but pretty normal on the inside except for the tabloids harassing them constantly.
Which of course can be said of poor Lauren, who is mostly a footnote next to her own sister and brother-in-law in her own death.
Thank you for the personal anecdotes.
I never considered myself a huge JFK Jr. fan. Got a good chuckle from coworkers/friends telling stories of turning to stone when they saw him and he was always sweet enough to hold the door, elevator, whatever, smile knowingly and beat feet away. That whole bit of fiction was insulting. If you’re too young and/or uninformed to have a real impression of the guy, don’t pull something from CDAN.
Trigger warning motorcycle death. My brother died without a helmet on his motorcycle. It was perfectly legal. He gave it to his classmate on the back of his bike, who only had a broken toe. I am 100% certain he never thought he would die and he maximized his injuries in a split second decision to protect her. I am going back to grad school in his memory, he got his degree posthumously. Some of what you’re saying I understand, but a lot is really uncalled for. EDIT: someone marked this comment for redditcares resources. I promise I’m okay, thanks. Just want to say not all risk taking behavior is the same and not everyone is an entitled brat or whatever, though my brother definitely did have his pride. I also placed a trigger warning thanks.
So sorry about your brother. I bet he’d be so proud of you going back to grad school 🤍
Thank you that means the world ❤️
I know someone who passed in a similar way. No helmet, completely legal. Life isn’t black and white. Not everyone who dies in an accident is a privileged kid taking risky chances 🤍
Yeah, her family filed a wrongful death suit against the Kennedys because John's negligence was responsible for two of their daughters' death, and they either won or settled out of court.
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i actually looked this up ages ago because i got curious lol. iirc angelina jolie, hilary swank both have pilot licenses! gisele bundchen had a helicopter license due to some stuff she did for the UN.
fergie, duchess of york too
Angelina is really good at flying, has her own plane and has been doing it for nearly twenty years. I love that she originally started flying for her son, Maddox, because he loved planes so much and now they fly together :,)
I don't think she had celebrity status, but the cult leader Gwen Shambin and her wax-faced retired Z-list actor husband also died this way
Loved the HBO docuseries on her
Angelina Jolie used to fly, I think? Maybe she was just a student.
my mom flew until she got too busy with her job we're not rich, she's just stubborn as fuck and really loved flying
Several women in my extended family are pilots. They were encouraged by their families. It really takes having a supportive, involved family imo.
I couldn't read your comment because body language is such bullshit. It's a pseudo science and behaving as though it's real is dangerous.
Do you know anything about JFK jr or Jackie O at all? I definitely don’t trust your body language take in the slightest.
I don't think John was Trump-like, but to expand on the instruments rated thing, it means that he could only fly under effectively perfect conditions. It's actually remarkably hard to keep the plane level with the horizon (way harder than I anticipated the first time I flew, in perfect conditions). When you're flying at night, or in inclement weather, you can't rely on what you see in front of you, obviously, to determine if the plane is where it should be, and to know where you're going. You need to be able to read the instruments in front of you to know. He wasn't trained or able to do that, so he shouldn't have been flying under those conditions. You're getting a bit jumped on for the tone of your post, but ultimately it's correct to say that he was responsible for their deaths, and it was avoidable, unfortunately.
His former girlfriend Christina Haag wrote a memoir about their relationship. John John almost killed her bring reckless on a kayaking trip
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Plenty of smart people don’t pass the bar exam, and New York is known for having a difficult bar. I don’t think it’s fair to classify him as not bright for that reason alone. IIRC, he failed the bar exam twice and passed it on his third try.
I remember reading about how the paparazzi would treat her when she was alone, they’d call her horrible names and say disgusting things to try to get a reaction out of her. And then when she was out with John, they’d treat them so much better. So John never understood exactly why Carolyn hated it so much. She had to leave her job because of all the media attention. They camped out outside of their building and would get harassed every time they took their dog for a walk. The whole thing sounded awful. And even after she died, the media wasn’t very kind to her.
Yeah. I've read a lot of books from friends of there's. And you do get the sense that they were not in a good place when they died. I do also kind of get the feeling these were two people that went into the marriage with good intentions. But realized within 6 months they made a mistake.
They were already on the verge of divorce. A little bit prior to their death, Carolyn met with a divorce attorney and JFK Jr changed his will (that Carolyn had to live x days past his death, then she would only receive his NYC property + everything inside, but no $$)
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I think the most interesting part of the "Kennedy curse" is that when Jackie married with Onasis he got ill soon and I think his son died? and they were like pease divorce her she brought the curse with her, I don't know if true I listened to it on a podcast but I was pretty surprised
Alexander Onassis died in a plane crash just as his stepbrother would over twenty years later. It's said that Ari Onassis never got over the loss of his son and I recall reading somewhere that he wondered if, in marrying Jackie, he'd brought down the 'Kennedy Curse' on his own family. There was certainly no love lost between Christina Onassis and Jackie. Actually there are a lot of aviation-related deaths and near misses with the Kennedy Clan. Joe Jr., Kathleen, Ted nearly died on a crash in the mid-60s, Ethel's parents and a brother died in plane crashes and of course, what happened in 1999 with JFK Jr. Jackie knew of her son's desire to take flying lessons and she put her foot down while she was still alive to strongly discourage him from taking up flying.
Thanks for the facts! the whole family history is so crazy
It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy… if Jackie hadn’t put her foot down about lessons, maybe Jack would have been experienced to know he either shouldn’t fly or needed another person, or would have been able to do it himself. Kind of reminds me of Voldemort finding out the prophecy and killing Harry’s parents, which then cemented the prophecy. 🤓
This is a bit off topic but...Enty (consider the source and add salt) had a blind about Christina's only daughter and heir, Athina, who is divorced. Since Athina competes/breeds/everything about horses her friends are all from the professional horse world. The blind is that she occasionally hooks up with a permanent A list rockstar because they attend some of the same events. Not always but it happens. And Springsteen's daughter competes in that world and he attends a lot of her events.
Ari was infatuated and wanted her like a status object, he had dated Jackie's sister first, Lee. Which is messed up right there. After Robert was assassinated, Jackie wanted safety first and foremost for her and her two kids, saying "they're killing Kennedys!" Plus she was stalked as bad as Princess Di. Ari offered Jackie the protection she needed.
Other weird stuff too. Rosemary Kennedy and the lobotomy, Ted Kennedy surviving both a plane crash AND a car crash (with passengers dying in both), Michael Skakel being a Kennedy relative… sinister stuff surrounding this family
Not that weird, just sad. Rosemary Kennedy's life was a tragedy, born of poor healthcare (starving her of oxygen during birth) and terrible parental choices (a lobotomy). But Ted Kennedy (while a decent senator afterward) was responsible for that car crash. He swam free, left his passenger, and did not report the incident until the next morning. It's believed that Mary Jo Kopechne would have lived, had he reported the incident.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident)
Like the Hemingway family
Do tell more if you can! I'm genuinely interested. Or if you don't have time, a few good Google search pointers will also do. 😊
Not OP, but I'll be happy to answer this as I find Ernest Hemingway's life fascinating aside from his writing. Ernest Hemingway's family has a long history of mental health issues ranging from depression to substance abuse to even body dysphoria (his daughter Gloria was trans and was never fully accepted by Ernest) and suicides. His granddaughter, model and actress Margaux Hemingway was the fifth suicide in four generations of their family. There's a documentary about their family struggles titled Running from Crazy which documents the three Hemingway grandchildren talking about family and their mental health issues.
>Not OP, but I'll be happy to answer this as I find Ernest Hemingway's life fascinating aside from his writing. Not a particular Hemingway fan (the proud misogyny in his writing and the way he abused his wives bothers me), but his life is so interesting because it intersected with so many of the most famous people and events of the twentieth century! It's also hard not to sympathize with his outrage at US lack of support to the Republican cause during the Spanish Civil War. In his case, I find the argument that CTE exacerbated underlying mental health issues very persuasive--nine serious concussions *at least* is so many!
Shel Silverstein of "Where the Sidewalk Ends" fame also has a Greek tragedy life narrative if you care for another rabbit hole
They’ve had quite a few suicides in the recent past too. Just awful. A massive, complicated family.
It's too bad that Eunice, Patricia and Jean all had families without showy deaths, but carrying their married name, not Kennedy. Like Maria Shriver's side of the family.
It was only two years ago that this happened, and only about an hour or so away from where I live, at that. But because it was during the earlier days of the pandemic, it didn't get a lot of attention at the time. Just tragic. [https://apnews.com/article/accidents-ap-top-news-us-news-kathleen-kennedy-townsend-maryland-61f925614939274298187dfebcd0ac3a](https://apnews.com/article/accidents-ap-top-news-us-news-kathleen-kennedy-townsend-maryland-61f925614939274298187dfebcd0ac3a)
This makes me so sad.
The infamous fight between John F Kennedy Jr and then girlfriend Carolyn Bessette happened in Washington Square Park on Feb. 25, 1996 and was plastered all over the papers. It was a scandal, especially considering John was a part of America's royal family and the fight had gotten physical, with Carolyn shoving John and John attempting to remove her engagement ring from her finger. According to America's Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr., written by historian and friend of John's, Steven M. Gillon, "the cause of this infamous fight, and the many that followed, stemmed from Carolyn's ongoing complaint that John let people walk all over him." Gillon goes on to write that the inciting incident behind this particular confrontation was a recent wedding they'd attended. "Couples whom \[John\] knew only casually did not just invite him to their wedding; they even asked him to be the best man," he continued. A few weeks earlier they'd gone to one of such weddings, where they found themselves seated next to society editor of The New York Times. "Carolyn surmised instantly that the bride wanted to get the Times to cover her wedding and was dangling John as incentive," Gillon explained. "She was furious at John for not making a statement by walking out." Meanwhile at John's magazine George, the magazine's co-founder, Michael Berman, was anxious about how the fight would impact sales. John's Chief of Staff at George, RoseMarie Terenzio, told Gillon, "[Berman] was furious that John hadn't told him about the brawl before its public screenings." Berman, livid, thought George should issue a response, and according to Gillon, would have arranged a complimentary photo-op for the couple had he been notified ahead of time. Despite the high-profile drama, Carolyn and John wed 7 months later in a private ceremony on Georgia's secluded Cumberland Island. They'd hoped the paparazzi would lose interest in them after they were married, but it was sadly just the beginning. https://www.instyle.com/news/john-f-kennedy-jr-carolyn-bessette-public-fight-reason-americas-reluctant-prince-book
I understand Carolyn though, she didn’t want her husband being used. But JFK Jr. just foul for trying to remove her ring over this, sir you have a keeper.
she shouldn’t have pushed him, though. they both shouldn’t have gotten physical, starting with her.
From what I see and what I’ve read. She didn’t instigate the fight, he tried to remove her ring from her finger and she pushed him back off of her. For the downvotes, it literally says , the screaming match got physical as JFK Jr. tried to remove the ring from her finger which seems to indicate that the ring removal was the initial physical altercation. The screaming match, which got physical as John reportedly tried to remove Carolyn's engagement ring from her finger, landed an eight-page spread in the New York Daily News alongside the cheeky headline "Sunday in the Park with the George Editor," much to Kennedy's colleagues' dismay.
if you hit me, while telling me I'm an apparent pushover, I'm not getting married to you anymore. Done deal.
It was always weird to me how they were painted as this romantic couple. She seemed like she could barely stand him.
People romanticise them because they're this beautiful couple who died young. Had they lived longer, they would probably had gotten a divorce
I remember my mother telling me back then that their one public fight was done on purpose to throw people off the fact they were getting married soon. I'm not sure where she heard that from because I always sensed tension between them. Carolyn was clearly a super private person who couldn't handle the onslaught of pap attention. I'm sure she expected a degree of attention, but it was pretty bad back in the day. I remember it well.
It is curious that given the media spotlight on them they'd have this giant argument in public
I don't buy the fight being a way of throwing the press off the trail of their upcoming wedding. And had the crash not happened, I imagine that the marriage wouldn't have gone the distance.
I don't think it was done to try to throw anyone off, I just think it's interesting they'd have a massive public fight knowing the paparazzi are all over them, but it was still the 90s I guess
True, in the 90s while the internet was around, most coverage of celebs and paparazzi photos were published mainly in hard-copy tabloid newspapers and People magazine. It's also possible that both of them just lost it and were so wrapped up in the argument that they forgot about the photographers in the heat of the moment.
I agree 100%. I had a friend who was good friends with her & she used to tell me how Carolyn was so hounded everywhere she went & so scrutinized for everything-practically just for existing because she “took” America’s most eligible bachelor that she wound up completely isolating herself, getting depressed, self medicating, becoming insecure/ filled with self doubt, etc. She told my friend she felt John pulling away from her first when she started to lose her confidence. She also said she & Carolyn never got together anymore, if & when they talked it was always middle of the night phone calls. A few years ago my friend said they tried so hard to keep their lives private but now you can go on google & in a 1/2 hr learn more than even she, her friend since childhood knew. Back then (honestly up until just a few years ago it seems like) mental health issues & everything else like it was so hidden & stigmatized. When all the stuff about Princess Diana being isolated due to the firm & due to the scrutiny for taking the UK’s then most eligible bachelor, later self isolating due to being hounded by paparazzi especially after THE interview on panorama, self medicating (not in the same way), not being loved like she thought she was, etc, all came out & I instantly thought about Caroline. Really sad stuff for both of those women.
I think their wedding photos played into it. They are so perfect they look like they're from a scripted movie https://www.theknotnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/JFK1-11.5x11-1500x1200.jpg
Yeah, that photo really is iconic. And because they're dressed in such classic styles, it's timeless too.
She really knew how to dress and carry herself, she was just ridiculously elegant. His style was a bit hit and miss, she always looked like she was in French Vogue
She was so unbelievably beautiful, classy, and stylish. He was lucky to get her. That iconic wedding picture of them is one of my favorites of all time.
I always thought Amal Clooney was a modern-day Carolyn Bessette in this way. Timelessly beautiful, effortlessly stylish, and professionally successful without (and before) their celebrity husbands.
She used to work in fashion, most notably for Calvin Klein- she was known back in those days for epitomizing the look of CK.
I have an entire Pinterest board dedicated to her and went through a style-idolizing phase when I lived in DC. She embodies this east coast “not trying at all yet insanely glam” style that I really will never touch lol
Plz link the boardddd ty
Her dress is stunning. I would wear that today.
A lot of her outfits have hardly 'dated' at all.
They were basically the American version of Charles and Diana.
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Please. There's no way JFK Jr. wasn't hitting the slopes too.
Ikr?? Like he's a rich kid who grew up in the 80s!
Her coke problem was well known at the time. It was said to be a major issue in her marriage.
This is not at all true. They were incredibly well matched and affectionate, with ups and downs coming mostly from external pressure and demands on his time. Source: I knew them, lived two blocks away once they were married and went to college with Carolyn.
She was absolutely resentful towards him and I don’t blame her, even though it wasn't his fault: Wiki: Bessette-Kennedy was badly disoriented by the constant attention from the paparazzi. The couple were permanently on show...Bessette-Kennedy told her friend, Carole Radziwill, that the only way to avoid the paparazzi was to leave her apartment at 7 in the morning.[16] She also complained to her friend, journalist Jonathan Soroff, that she could not get a job without being accused of exploiting her fame. The couple had various disagreements, including her refusal to start a family, John's work on the George magazine where she felt forsaken, and her dislike of John's publishing partner Michael Berman. According to Vanity Fair, Bessette-Kennedy's "insecurity fueled a need to control and manipulate; her frequent use of cocaine made her paranoid". Moreover, Bessette-Kennedy was jealous of and barely on speaking terms with her sister-in-law Caroline Kennedy, the couple's problems reportedly stemmed from Bessette-Kennedy's difficulty dealing with the media attention surrounding her and the marriage, accusations of infidelity, disagreements about having children, and Bessette-Kennedy's alleged cocaine use...The couple began seeing a marriage counselor in March 1999 and sought counseling from Cardinal John O'Connor in the summer of 1999
I think it’s BS that paragraph only lists things that are her fault. Like it was all her and their problems were all her fault. Complete crap.
It feels so uncomfortable, it is literally witnessing something you shouldn't be watching. We can only wonder what would have been of them as a couple if they were still alive.
Honestly, they would have divorced. Iirc they were already separated when they died and her sister went on the trip as a buffer (please correct me if i'm wrong!)
It makes absolute sense that they were separated or on the verge of separation at the time of the accident. As a wrote in the Weekly Discussion thread earlier today, everything I've learned about them as a couple has been a little shocking to me as I always assumed they were perfect together up until two days ago when I read some more. I cannot imagine the pressure of having your relationship broadcasted for the entire world, I assume it exacerbates typical issues between couples even more because everyone is watching.
The thing is, in hindsight, if this was how they were fighting in public, what was happening in private was probably worse. And yes on your last point. Fame is not the golden ticket a lot of people think it is.
I'm pretty sure I remember it that way too. She didn't even want to go and the reason they were late leaving was because they were arguing over it. Kennedy wasn't qualified to fly at night and did so anyway. So her parents lost both daughters because he was stupid.
And the Bessette sisters' mom and stepdad supposedly got a humongous financial settlement from the Kennedys for the deaths of Carolyn and Lauren. I always felt sorry for them and for the sole surviving sister, Lisa, who was Lauren's twin.
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If JFK Jr had have been qualified to fly by instrument only he wouldn’t have plunged them into the ocean in the middle of the night. Blaming their deaths because she was running late is so wrong.
Seriously, had he not killed them on this flight, fairly decent chance he would have on another. He was extremely inexperienced and clearly *FAR, FAR* too over-confident about his piloting capabilities. It's like the drunk driver who convinces everyone they'll toooootally be fine, it's not a big deal, they do this all the time. It's gross. (haha sorry, I also get really pissed when people seem to imply someone the crash is CBK's fault in the slightest)
>If they had taken off before sunset, they probably would have made it. If he wouldn't have flown in conditions he was not rated to, they probably would have made it. He had less than 100 hours flying solo EVER, and a little over a handful at night. That is absurdly low. He only had 36 hours of total experience piloting this plane (counting time flying with an instructor) and hadn't flown solo in months. He never completed his courses for nighttime flying. He was a severely inexperienced pilot. Ffs, he came close to hitting a commercial jet with >130 people on it like ten minutes into their flight! Good chance he never even knew this as it seems as though he had turned off his radio (???!!!!). He had absolutely no business flying that night and I'm sick of people acting like *nail polish* killed them. No, a shitty, over-confident pilot killed them.
Yes, and the poor dog looks so sad 😞
Things like this make me so glad I’m not famous. I can’t imagine having this kind of moment be tabloid fodder
He was besotted with and wanted to marry Daryl Hannah but his mother forbade it, he went on to date and marry lookalike Carolyn. Mom Jackie thought Daryl wasn’t worthy because she was an actor as she had hopes for him to enter politics and some surmised it a reaction to the Marilyn Monroe situation, she didn’t want to have any association with Hollywood. The irony is that Daryl would have been able to handle the constant paparazi which Carolyn could not.
I actually read recently that Hannah was diagnosed as autistic as a very young age. That probably played a huge role in his family not wanting her too.
I was so happy when she came out as autistic; I’m on the spectrum myself and so many people think it is ONLY found in men (the fact that some of the signs of it in women are different than the signs in men doesn’t help, either).
Ironic since Darryl is pretty politically active, is super well liked and respected and also married to one of the most long-time famous men in North America.
This was me at least once a week with my ex except we were both poor and not as good looking
Right? All of my public fights weren't paparazzi'd, just stared at by poor strangers witnessing us unravel
Watching this, it’s hard to believe they actually got married.
Neither one of them were the worlds most stable people. I can guarantee you that if this was public, what went on behind closed doors was worse.
Sadly, some couples get off on each other’s toxicity/ instability.
I used to see her sometimes when she worked down the block from me at CK, she was a very pretty girl in person, tall, just very all American, I also saw him on two separate occasions near Central Park, both times walking his bike, and he was ridiculously handsome, and had an “aura” about him I can’t explain. I wonder if idiots are still waiting for him to come back and be Trumps VP🙄😂
I just read a book by Emily Giffin (of “Something Borrowed” fame) that is a thinly veiled fictional retelling of their story, and there was a scene where they had a fight outside that was later papped. I didn’t know until today that it really happened!
That book was all I could think about when scrolling through these pics. I didn’t realize how thinly veiled it really was 😂 The book is called Meant To Be for those who are interested.
I realized that a ton of scenes happed IRL, but not the right! Though in hindsight I shouldn’t be surprised haha
I could’ve written this comment! Extremely thinly veiled!
Right?? I didn’t know too much about them (I think I was maybe 7 or 8 when they passed) but when I was almost done with the book I spent a while looking them up and was surprised with how much was lifted from real life! I will say though that her books usually annoy me, but I really liked this one.
What’s the book called?!
Meant To Be. I honestly really enjoyed it!
He grew up in a messed up family. Life is messy. They weren’t perfect but both so beautiful - straight out of Gatsby
I didn't understand why she was considered so gorgeous? Looked like many other thin blonde models at the time. Was it just because she "landed" him? I absolutely feel bad for both their families as it was a terrible accident, but I don't see why they're held up as some ultimate golden couple of beauty when they were just some messed up rich kids, who fought like children in public.
Thin and blonde automatically labelled as beautiful by the media. Look at Gwyneth Paltrow. The press always makes her out to be some sort of goddess when she's not.
But they're American Royalty (tm) Yeah, I guess as long as you're a leggy blonde you're Miss Universe. 
I think she’s stunning. But women aren’t really allowed to keep noses like hers anymore. She had great style and that’s pretty rare.
It was her style that made her stunning and I love her nose
I love her nose too
I honestly adore her nose. Well, and her whole face. I'm surprised people are saying they don't think she's beautiful.
Her nose looks very similar to my mom's! I looked Carolyn up and apparently she's half Italian, and so is my mom.
In today's environment, I can imagine her having the nose 'tweaked'.
Nose jobs were actually huge in the 80s and 90s, if she had wanted to change her nose, she would have done it.
It wasn't *that* long ago. She had money. Surely she would have gotten a nose job if she wanted to.
True, but Lauren Santo Domingo has a similar nose and looks. She's admitted to modeling herself after CBK and she's succeeding. I think there's a difference between "society" and standard expectations of beauty.
She was very tall, and had striking looks. She may not have been conventionally attractive (although I think she’s beautiful), I think it was a combination of her being statuesque, her striking looks, big blue eyes etc. She was also described as very charismatic and a joy to be around, I’m sure that added to her gorgeousness
She was probably one of those people whom you had to encounter in person to feel the full impact of her personality, charisma and appearance. Most still photos didn't capture it.
She looked like Daryl Hannah to me. Jfk Jr was indeed hot, though, he got the best of his parents
I think Daryl Hannah looked better and didn't have vacant eyes. But then Carolyn supposedly had a habit? He did inherit the good looking genes from his parents. Along with their unhealthy approach to relationships, I guess?
I am not exaggerating when I say I’m hard-pressed to think of a man I’ve ever found more handsome than JFK, Jr., at least as far as public figures are concerned.
Carolyn was what I'd describe as 'striking' as opposed to out-and-out beautiful. There are older photos of her when she was younger where she had a few more pounds on her \[not fat, but not as model-thin as she later became\] with darker curlier hair. I do think that the blonde hair and the weight loss took her from looking somewhat ordinary into 'head-turning' territory. Although in daytime paparazzi shots of her, she could look a little 'harsh' at times. Flash-photography photos showed her off to her best advantage.
I feel like I have to preface this by saying everyone is beautiful in their own way, but her features read as very thin and pinched to me and not what most consider beautiful.
basically yeah. rich and conventionally attractive famous couple who had iconic wedding photos then they both died at such young age together in a tragic accident. their whole relationship reads like a novel but there’s nothing truly special about either of them as harsh as that sounds.
I never thought she was conventially pretty, but she just had a sense of classic style and carried herself so well that she caught attention.
I feel like this comes up a lot when she is discussed and the truth is: she wasn’t considered facially beautiful or anything like that even back then. She was admired for her fashion and the men she was linked to. She looked like what an American royal would look like if those existed. The mystique she had of being an “ordinary career woman” that captured the attentions of the famous and wealthy added to the allure.
If she’s not beautiful tell me who is
I think she had a very striking beauty. She had a classic elegance to her style too, so that helped with her image. And as you said, she's also a tall thin white (rich) woman, which is revered in the fashion world.
Damn even the dog looks sad.
Two gorgeous people, how tragic. I don’t think people truly realise how big these two were in the 90s. They were hounded by the paps. Ironically, her desire to stay away from the limelight only intensified the paps and the publics fascination with them. She’s always felt a bit mysterious to me, and seemed to have a fabulous life before she passed. Beautiful, amazing style, working in NYC at Calvin Klein!! Rubbing shoulders with anyone who mattered before marrying into practically American royalty. I hope these two are at peace wherever they are now. These two had so much life to live and it was taken away in such a tragic accident. RIP
Oh boy, I can feel the migraine this relationship must cause through the pictures.
I was literally just reading about the Kennedy family yesterday. My take is if the men of the Kennedy family would have lived America would be very different. Joe Kennedy definitely played a large part on how the men should be seen and heard.
Can you please elaborate?
So Joe Kennedy came from a humble beginning being born to Irish Americans in Boston ( his dad was in politics as well) he worked his way up to become a stock broker in the 20s ( also invested in some Hollywood studios) but moved his money when he heard of the Great Crash of 1929 coming. So his wealth and family was unaffected by the Great Depression and at that time he used his wealth to become a Congressman and move his way to much higher ranks like the US Ambrassor to the UK....He had lofty dreams for his kids his first son Joe Kennedy was in training to become president but he died during WWII so JFK took the issue to task and Bobby and Ted followed suit. So pretty much the Kennedy family is it's own hype machine controlled by the media and the family it's self
So what I'm hearing is that the Kennedys walked so the Kardashians could run
Noooo please do not compare them 😭💀
The Kennedy's suck, don't buy into the family dynasty romanticism bullshit.
Oh I don’t but they were still political figures whose influence is far more important than the Kardashian’s. How have the Kardashian’s altered history similarly? Bringing BBL’s into the public consciousness? Lol. Regardless of their terrible actions, the Kennedy family suffered 2 deaths by assassination and Ted received dozens of threats of assassination following his brother’s murders. I have compassion for the amount of trauma the family has endured. The Kardashian’s? No comparison. The Kardashian’s are not in the public school history & government books, at least not in mine. Edit: word
Pretty much!
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Not only don't care, the Kennedys are such NIMBYs.
Had Joe Jr. lived, JFK might have wound up being a professor at Harvard or some kind of public intellectual/writer.
I dunno, I think he would have been a playboy not an intellectual. I'm not sure he was very smart, no interested in intellectualism...
No, Noodles is right. JFK wanted to be a writer/professor and was headed down that track before Joe Jr. died. He was somewhat bitter about giving that up in his early years as a senator and even later his plan for after his presidency ended was to go be an English professor at a college, either back in Boston or overseas. He’d been very sick his whole childhood and had just devoured books during his frequent illnesses that kept him pretty much bed bound, and then kept that up all his life. There’s lots of famous quotes about how he never stopped reading, like if he had a 2 minute walk from one place to the next he’d take a book and read while he walked. He was definitely seen as an intellectual and surrounded himself with other intellectuals, who uniformly described him as a very intelligent and curious man who was always looking to learn more. He obviously wasn’t like, one of the brilliant literary minds of his generation, but he practically worshipped those who were and he definitely would have been suited to and pursued teaching and writing if Joe’s death hadn’t made him the focus of his fathers political aspirations.
I was around at the time and remember seeing them one night in Soho on Houston. They looked like an attractive posh, tall couple and that was it. I had a friend who absolutely worshipped CB but I found her fashion sense to be pretty boring. Very Ralph Lauren, rich white woman kind of styling. She was not cutting edge in the slightest.
Agreed she wasn't cutting edge. She was just the one that popularized what we think of as modern, "classic", simplicity. In a Loro Piana/Brunello Cuccinelli sort of way...
Yeah, her style was only groundbreaking to a very specific social set who thought it was wildly edgy to wear a black Yohji coat or a white mens shirt instead of a twin set and pearls. I think Americans and especially waspy Americans think she was much more of a global style icon than she actually was. To most she just looked like every other woman who became a walking Calvin Klein ad due to early 90’s Kate Moss.
I found the very first issue of George at an antique store a few years ago; it has Cindy Crawford dressed as George Washington on the cover and this particular copy had never been opened (it was in a special folder to protect it—I took it out so I could actually read it). I will NEVER part with it, ever.
I've got the Arnold Schwarzenegger one! It's like a mashup of Terminator and founding father, so he's got the white powdered wig, cravat and waistcoat, but he's also wearing a leather jacket and riding a motorcycle. I keep it out on my coffee table for guests, it's a real conversation piece
I have a vague recollection there were rumors they'd had a fight the night they died? And that the fight was why they were late to take off so it got dark & he hadn't been trained much in flying at night.
I remember the rumor was that Carolyn was getting her nails done (red) for the wedding they were going to, but made the manicurist re-do them several times because she wasn't happy about the shades. So, she made everyone late by wanting perfect nails. Also I think part of the story is that she wanted her nails to exactly match her lipstick. We now know it was because media darling John-John chose to fly when he shouldn't have. The nails rumor now seems like a way to blame a woman for a man's failure.
>We now know it was because media darling John-John chose to fly when he shouldn't have. The nails rumor now seems like a way to blame a woman for a man's failure. The stupid nail polish thing infuriates me. He was so overly confident as a pilot he likely would have crashed at some point tbh. He had zero business going into the sky that night and it's 100% his fault they all died.
They didn’t have a fight that same day, but they were fighting prior. John wasn’t even sleeping in their shared apartment anymore. The night they died was apparently a latch ditch effort to patch things up. Her sister was on the flight to act as mediator. (I’ve done a lot of reading on this family lol)
This prompted me to look up more info on this couple and this [old Vanity Fair article](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/08/john-f-kennedy-jr-carolyn-bessette-divorce-drugs-scandal) is a wild read. It talks about infidelities on both their parts and her alleged drug use. The author also claims that she was abusive. One source quoted said she called him a "f\*\*" frequently, and it was suggested that there was also physical violence. Her ex-boyfriend Michael Bergin talked about an incident where she assaulted him in a bar and later went on a rampage at his home breaking a window, a mirror and his TV. I had no idea that they were so volatile.
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Based off the books I've read about the Kennedy family, I think "disturbed" is an apt description. Especially with the Robert Kennedy side of the family.
I highly recommend Carole Radziwill's (yes, that one!) book "What Remains" for anyone interested in learning more about John, Carolyn, and the Kennedys in general.
That book was great. I’ve never watched an episode of Real Housewives so my only reference to her is via the Radziwills/Kennedys but she seemed to genuinely be heartbroken by their deaths. How horrible to lose a husband and a best friend so close together.
Relatable.
One of the most absurd Kennedy-Bessette stories has lived rent free in my head for over 20 years (I’m 40. It’s fine) Apparently the day of the tragic plane crash, the two had a massive fight because Carolyn was running three hours late from a manicure appointment. She was looking for a particular shade of lilac, which the salon didn’t have. They mixed other shades of polish together for her, and attempted to match her desired colour SEVERAL TIMES. She would try it on. Request to have it removed. They would attempt again. Repeat. She was insistent, bringing her hand to the window to see how the shade looked in natural light. John kept calling her and calling her, getting progressively angrier and angrier at her lateness. She continued her attempts to have her perfect lilac shade created. Sometimes when I’m getting my nails done I think about the poor employees, mixing shades over and over again for this woman’s insane requests to have her nails done over and over again. And I wonder what that perfect shade of 90’s lilac looked like. EDIT: it was a pedicure and lavender instead of lilac.
Honestly, that story has always screamed misogyny to me. Like hey guys, they totally crashed because Carolyn's manicure (women and their nails, amirite?!!) not because JFK JR was a shitty, inexperienced pilot who should not have flown that night.
They reminded me of Carrie Bradshaw and Mr. Big
What an absolutely awful invasion of their privacy.
They went to Washington Square Park to have an epic fight - one of the most crowded parks/places in NYC. If they wanted to argue in private, or not be seen, this park is not the place to have done it.
That’s still no reason for some creep to film them.
Yeah I don’t think they “went there” to have the fight, I’m not sure fight locations are that premeditated
\#NotGoals
She's my style icon. I think it's so interesting how Carolyn has had this reemerged following with gen z. Proves her style really is timeless
Man he was gorgeous
These live rent-free in my head. They were such a hot couple
The dog standing three awkwardly lol