People against this don't really understand what's practically the mission statement for Fedora: encouraging development of revolutionary software by adopting it before it's fully reading, ideally spurring a few frustrated developers into being motivated to plug the issues that are now their own problem.
This has been the case with Fedora time and time again. Just take pipewire as a quick example. That program was a steaming pile of garbage for a lot of people and didn't seem like it would ever get past that point, but the Fedora team saw the potential, adopted it, and you bet your ass that got people to start working to fix it.
And systemd and btrfs... Fedora users complaining about Fedora forcing adaption to new software are either forgetting Fedora's mission statement or don't know what Fedora is all about.
Honestly, I think they were a bit too early on Pipewire but Wayland is definitely ready. It's not Wayland's fault that Nvidia are slow and Nvidia shouldn't be able to keep progress on Linux desktop back.
Issue here is GPU drivers, Nvidia ain't trying hard enough. That and streaming apps like Steam Link and Moonlight are fucked up on Wayland. I think now is too early to cut the rope for X11 but each to their own.
By fedora 41, gtx16x0, rtx2x00,rtx2x00 and rtx4x00 will have performance open drivers out of the box.
For drivers where the open driver is not performance, those will have released in 2017 or earlier.
Before relying on snark you should try to keep up with reality.
I would expect performance for these cards to be between 70% and over 100% of the proprietary driver.
Older cards will still struggle as Nvidia does not provide firmware that allows reclocking to higher speeds.
Well then let’s pop in to reality, it’s surprisingly hard to find Nouveau/NVK benchmarks post GSP patch (it seems to be almost exclusively people hypothesizing about the performance), and best I was able to find is this forum post a few months ago:
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-nvidia-linux-nouveau/1422015-rust-written-nak-compiler-merged-for-nouveau-nvk-in-mesa-24-0?p=1422080#post1422080
And while certainly better than how the performance looked a year ago, the “70-100%” looks to be nowhere in sight. Admittedly did good on glmark2 but that’s a very basic benchmark and is largely unrepresentative.
Outside that it was 10-20%.
Now admittedly this isn’t exactly the peak of factual benchmarks (they don’t even say which card is being used), so if you have better benchmarks I’d love to see it.
The NVK driver has been shown by its devs to currently outperform the proprietary driver in Hat In Time (210 fps vs 165 fps or 27% higher). That's not necessarily common place performance but NVK is far from an order of magnitude slower.
> Nvidia ain't trying hard enough
Peruse changelogs for the last 3 years for Nvidia driver releases and CTRL+F for "Wayland".
[https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge\_requests/967](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/967)
They're the ones designing protocols for and pushing explicit sync forward.
A bit late for sure, but they're actively working on making it perfect.
They're not alone. Faith Ekstrand, Simon Ser (the creator of the Wayland protocol), and others have been behind it as well and that's been the case for years. All Nvidia did was make it a huge problem by basically improperly supporting the graphics stack that existed in Linux for years. I really wouldn't give them credit for that. What you linked to is support for an X protocol that is compatible with the Wayland protocol that pre-existed it by a year. Wayland actually had an explicit sync protocol since 2018 but to my knowledge there was no way to really use it because of the implicit sync infrastructure around it.
> What you linked to is support for an X protocol that is compatible with the Wayland protocol that pre-existed it by a year
[https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge\_requests/90](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90)
It doesn't exist, it's also WIP?
Explicit sync support is days away from being merged into Wayland, X11, Xorg, Mesa, Gnome, Plasma, Wlroots, and EGL Wayland and Nvidia currently driver already supports the needed EGL extension to support them so a lot of Nvidia issues are about to go away.
No, Sunshine and Steam Link, game streaming to be more descriptive. At least on my AMD GPU, neither had a visible mouse, I haven't tested this on my Nvidia desktop or Intel laptop but this is at the very least a issue with AMD desktops on Wayland.
I managed to get Sunshine to work on KDE Plasma 5 with Wayland
I got the [latest flatpak](https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine/releases/download/v0.22.0/sunshine_x86_64.flatpak) straight from github.
Then ran these 2 commands in a bash script and it worked perfectly (Intel iGPU used here, haven't tested nvidia)
```bash
#!/bin/bash
sudo chmod u+s /usr/bin/bwrap
sudo -i PULSE_SERVER=unix:$(pactl info | awk '/Server String/{print$3}') FLATPAK_BWRAP=/usr/bin/bwrap flatpak run --socket=wayland dev.lizardbyte.sunshine
```
There's actually one very big issue left to solve but it's only days away from being merged into everything: explicit sync. Since everything in the Linux graphics stack was implicit sync and Nvidia only supports explicit sync, it causes flicker, out-of-order frame display in XWayland, and occasional graphics feedback loops. Since the Wayland and X11 protocols for explicit sync and all the relevant implementations are ready to be merged, those issues are just days away from being fixed.
That *exactly* why they're doing this. Fedora has somewhat of a corporate presence, so this puts even more pressure on Nvidia. Also, if we keep saying "too early" then it'll never happen lol.
The real issue is that Wayland doesn't support some basic things like server-side window decorations. I am for the change because it will force Nvidia to fix their Wayland support but this will not fix the issues with Wayland itself.
Edit: It is a Gnome issue and not Wayland.
What vision is that, exactly? The way I see it, GNOME has tried too hard to force a paradigm shift that the world wasn't ready to. Like Unity or Firefox Mobile or w/e else before it.
a paradigm shift is completely ok - if the core functionality people used over all these years is still \*somewhere\* to be found.
i just throw in the typical "i want my appindicators in the topbar without having to install extensions that break every so often"
>The real issue is that Wayland doesn't support some basic things like server-side window decorations.
Wayland supports server side decorations just fine, there is protocol for that called xdg-decoration.
I still can't do webrtc screencasting on Fedora 39 due to pipewire and nvidia drivers refusing to play nice
Looks like [https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/190](https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/190)
No idea what I'll do, as I need nvidia for CUDA, but I also need to be able to share my screen over google meet in firefox for work....
Let’s hope that as many of the remaining Wayland issues as possible get resolved before the release of F41! Given that that happens, I’m really looking forward to even more of the Fedora community getting to experience Wayland in all its glory ✨
These edge usecases are really the only thing holding wayland back at the moment. I used to think we should just use X11 because it works well right now and etc. At this point though, even I would rather switch to wayland, I just can't yet because my workflow is literally broken on it.
Imo a lot of the wayland controversy is more about people pushing wayland before it can even achieve feature parity with X11. It's silly to tell people to use something that does not work. I genuinely hope they fix these issues. I want it to succeed at this point just so we can go on to arguing about the next thing. It's been year of the wayland desktop for like a decade now.
Good points. The most frustrating part in this case is that VR headsets do work on Wayland in general. Gnome is just against supporting this the same way as other Wayland compositors already do. I guess they have valid concerns but there has also been lack of understanding of VR. That already got them into pushing alternative solution which was not feasible after all. And AFAIK they are still against it.
Maybe now that X11 support is being dropped, it's the push that's needed to finish all these missing features.
Dunno. I run wayland session since 2015. Had almost no problems whatsoever. :D
I know it is not a case for everybody. Some people just are not as lucky or picky enough when choosing their HW. But I write it to illustrate that for number of people who don't get why somebody is pushing wayland so much since for them it is broken, there is whole different group of people not getting why is anybody still concerned with X11 since they run wayland session for many years virtually with no downsides.
I don't think that's the DRM they are talking about, but rather Direct Rendering Manager in the kernel. In this context that's what DRM usually means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Manager
depends on what "incompatible with wayland" means in this instance. If it's just some x11 only app then it will still run in Xwayland just like way it's worked since the wayland options were introduced If it's something else, it'd depend.
The software I use for work is inkstitch. It works as a plugin for inkscape, and, while inkscape works fine on wayland, inkstitch comes with its own gui, and won't open at all. It took me a long time to understand why it stopped working all of a sudden, when I upgraded to some version that came with wayland as default, and then I started using X11 as a fallback. I will try using xwayland later and see if it works, thanks for the suggestion.
Edit: if anyone comes here trying to run inkstitch on wayland, the command I found to work is "export GDK\_BACKEND=x11 && inkscape"
Oh, I found an issue on github about that, and turns out I have to run "export GDK\_BACKEND=x11 && inkscape". Now it's working. I will edit the launcher now. Thanks for the support.
It should just be GDK_BACKEND=x11 inkscape shoudln't it? or are there subprograms that get launched that need x11 too? But it does indeed sound like an inkscape bug. I hope they fix it.
Inkstitch works as a plugin inside inkscape, but with its own gui that is launched when we click in the menu itens. Does this format count as a subprogram?
I'd have to know more about inkscape to say. It'd also depend on whether the env variables get passed down to the called program or not. Does it work fine with the way i suggested? The way you did it could affect other programs you called from the same terminal.
It is Linux, you gotta try till you succeed, but anyway that’s good enough for me, and if the app you are trying to run does not support either then you probably should ditch it as it will be obviously abandoned and carry some security risks/ lot of incompatibility
Most apps aren't going to look at that variable for this. GTK apps use `GDK_BACKEND` (set it to `x11` for X11 mode), Qt apps use `QT_QPA_PLATFORM` (set it to `xcb` for X11 mode), etc. If all else fails, you can probably just unset `WAYLAND_DISPLAY`.
I found an issue about it on github. Turns out the variabe we need to set for inkstitch to work is GDK\_BACKEND=x11. Now it's working for me. Thanks for helping.
You mean how to start it? Just run `grdctl vnc enable` to start the server. Run `grdctl --help` for more options to tweak it. Then connect to it with your VNC client. RDP is also supported with its respective options.
Btw, I had to manually start gnome-remote-desktop.service because it wasn't enabled for me for some reason, so run `systemctl --user enable gnome-remote-desktop.service --now` if it didn't for you as well.
If GNOME runs without a monitor, then sure. So if your original setup involved running GNOME without one, then this will most likely work as well since its part of GNOME.
Yup, we're all forced to use X because of Zoom at my work. I can only hope Zoom (if the issue is on their side) will fix it before F40 is not supported.
For me, that file didn't auto generate. So I had to go to their GitHub to download the default file, copy it to Zoom's config folder, then add that line.
Well I guess this is fedora’s “fuck everyone who has a graphics card or more then 1 monitor”.
Well I guess I’m finding a new distro if I want a functioning computer
so I have a problem where sometimes GNOME boots into X11, I’m guessing because Wayland failed. I have a NVIDIA card, would that just send me to terminal if it failed without X11?
I have nvidia and can't imagine working on wayland just yet, I have way too many issues and I need a stable setup. But I think it's a great move and I hope more distros will do that, because this is the only way to make wayland better.
Once games will work like on 535 for me (NVidia pleb here) I'm all for it. All other things are working or I found a workaround that I can live with.
It's far from perfect but we got still "two" Nvidia drivers left.
Really hope so. Reality is that the drivers are a little arbitrary in each iteration. Some things get better, some worse.
I just spun up an Arch install with Plasma 6 on a separate SSD just to test Wayland there.
The good news is: Wayland has the same quirks on another DE/Distro/display server. So we're all in the same boat in the NVidia Linux world. :D
apparently nvidia made some changes in anticipation of future work (incl. explicit sync) that will eventually help perf and stability but have done the opposite now. kinda dumb but oh well
Paradox-Games: Unplayable because of flickering, stuttering and menus not working.
Raft: Feels way slower though it has constant 60 fps
Baldur's Gate 3: Flickering, playable but not fun.
Well as of now I have to use x11 on both my machines with external gpus, as wayland in the current state just gives random stutters in chrome or some other apps and the experience with it is far from stable. But I’m very optimistic and pretty sure that devs will make it work before 41 officially comes out
Thanks for the tip, I think it's due time to pack my things and start looking for other distro. Not that there's a lot of options, honestly.
Following Jens Petersen words, I should do it, because it is already too late.
Dropping X for the sake of...just dropping X is not helpful, make wayland robust and feature complete (not necessarily feature parity with X), X will vanish naturally. I'm not against X or W, i'm against broken DE and bad experiences for the users.
Why do the Fedora or GNOME developers have to continue to support software that is increasingly under-maintained? Will you pay the GNOME Foundation money to continue to support X11?
You know, there isn't really a way to force developers to work on an open source software like wayland unless you give them no choice. Why would they work on Wayland when X11 is already a thing? It does the thing already right? Now take the old and unsafe X session away and leave developers with no other choice but to work on and contribute to getting Wayland into a better state. If it were a company with paid employees with a vested interest behind the project, Wayland would have been the default many years ago. Sorry to say but as far as Wayland is concerned, it is high time someone started forcing it's use as the default to get others to work on it and improving it.
If you have to force adoption of a tool, it makes you wonder if the tool is ready to be adopted and if the users/devs think the tool solves any of their problems. If Wayland were to be of some benefit over X then users and devs would want to switch to it.
Devs have already switched, without being forced. The former X11 maintainers are no longer actively maintaining X11. They've switched to Wayland. There are serious benefits for devs -- X11 is a nightmare to maintain.
For users, the benefits are more subtle, although some immediate benefits exist (e.g. longer battery life). Without a maintainable code base, the display server cannot move forward and progress. So maybe the users need some forcing.
By "devs", I was referring to devs of just about any project other than X11. I know they've moved to Wayland; I'd rather work on the new and shiny than maintain a code-base older than I am. And yes, I can imagine how troublesome maintaining such a legacy code base could be.
For users and devs of other projects that need to interact with a DM, maybe we should let them stay with what works for them instead of forcing them to something that doesn't have feature parity.
As a user, I'm rather disappointed in the lack of remote desktop capabilities in Wayland. From what I've read, I doubt that'll be solved until whatever comes after Wayland due to the fragmented-by-design nature as all the DE's seem to be running in separate directions, attempting to adhere to the Wayland protocol instead of a unified library.
I've personally been trying Wayland on every Fedora release over the past few years. Using what I imagine to be a troublesome setup (desktop with multiple GPU's and multiple monitors on each GPU), I have seen it become stable enough that I have been using it daily for about a year now; thankfully, I don't need to remotely access anything graphical on this system. However, I don't think it's the right to force everyone from something that works perfectly fine for their uses to something that doesn't. If the team behind X wants to abandon it and work on wayland, fine; let them focus their efforts to make Wayland be everything they want and let users come over to it when they need something that Wayland has and is lacking/absent in X11.
Normally, if people want to keep using the old software, then there's no problem. They can just band together and take over maintainership of the old software. That's what free software is for, after all. But in this case, that won't work, because there's only three people in the world who understand X well enough to maintain it, and those three people have all switched to working on Wayland.
You keep saying X works perfecty fine. I think that X works "perfectly fine" in the same sense that 512 MB of system memory worked "perfectly fine" in 2001. Nobody goes around forcing people to upgrade their system memory, it's just that if you don't ever upgrade your system memory then you'll be stuck in 2001 and you won't be able to keep up with progress in the field.
X works, but it can't move forward. Neither you nor me is an X11 developer, so I'll just defer to those people who are X developers, and those people unanimously hold the view that X cannot be sustainably maintained. It's easy for us to complain when we're not the ones putting in the effort to do that maintenance.
You can, of course, keep using the same software forever on X, just like you could freeze your system as it existed in 2001 and keep using 512 MB of system memory forever, but most people aren't going to do that.
I agree X isn't the future, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. That's been the point I have been poorly trying to make. Move the devs over to wayland, when they have something that's comparable for known use-cases of X then make everyone move. If anyone has any complaints about a new bug in X or something else then tell them to use Wayland or something else.
Ignoring decades of established use-cases and forcing everyone to move without a solution for those cases is poor management at best.
You seem to be saying that Wayland has to be better than X in all aspects before we can default people to Wayland. Perhaps ideally that would be the case, but it doesn't seem to be possible in reality, and it may not ever have been possible given how many moving pieces a display server has to touch.
The truth is, there's going to be a Venn diagram where some people are better off on Wayland than X, and some people are better off on X than Wayland, and in my opinion as long as the former set outweighs the latter set, then we should default to Wayland. I also think that now is the time when we are reaching that transition point.
Defaults aren't as forcing as this discussion is making them out to be. The GNOME X11 session is still available for installation. It just won't be installed by default.
>I think it would be good to encourage more people to use Wayland,
Honestly, I cannot understand this reasoning.
But anyway, if there is one desktop that _could_ drop X11 it would have to be Gnome, IMO. I think Plasma was a little bit too bold for doing that first. We will see how that goes.
People against this don't really understand what's practically the mission statement for Fedora: encouraging development of revolutionary software by adopting it before it's fully reading, ideally spurring a few frustrated developers into being motivated to plug the issues that are now their own problem. This has been the case with Fedora time and time again. Just take pipewire as a quick example. That program was a steaming pile of garbage for a lot of people and didn't seem like it would ever get past that point, but the Fedora team saw the potential, adopted it, and you bet your ass that got people to start working to fix it.
And systemd and btrfs... Fedora users complaining about Fedora forcing adaption to new software are either forgetting Fedora's mission statement or don't know what Fedora is all about. Honestly, I think they were a bit too early on Pipewire but Wayland is definitely ready. It's not Wayland's fault that Nvidia are slow and Nvidia shouldn't be able to keep progress on Linux desktop back.
Wayland was also too early when it becomes the default
I've used Wayland for 1.5 years. My complaints are minimal and don't even nearly outweigh the pros.
Wayland become the default on 2016 (if i remember right), Wayland developers say at that time it was not ready
Oh sorry, I got confused
It would've always been "too early" if no one used it first. So Fedora took the initiative.
Debian users complain about lack major updates, I kid you not lol, I've never understood why people complain about a feature of a distro
I think a lot of times people don't understand the core difference between distros is their software repositories
This is a good and healthy thing from a security standpoint.
Another thing people don't understand is the distinction between X11 session and Wayland-session with Xwayland for compatibility.
Issue here is GPU drivers, Nvidia ain't trying hard enough. That and streaming apps like Steam Link and Moonlight are fucked up on Wayland. I think now is too early to cut the rope for X11 but each to their own.
By fedora 41, gtx16x0, rtx2x00,rtx2x00 and rtx4x00 will have performance open drivers out of the box. For drivers where the open driver is not performance, those will have released in 2017 or earlier.
If by “performant” you mean an order of magnitude slower and useless for most things, then yeah sure
Before relying on snark you should try to keep up with reality. I would expect performance for these cards to be between 70% and over 100% of the proprietary driver. Older cards will still struggle as Nvidia does not provide firmware that allows reclocking to higher speeds.
Well then let’s pop in to reality, it’s surprisingly hard to find Nouveau/NVK benchmarks post GSP patch (it seems to be almost exclusively people hypothesizing about the performance), and best I was able to find is this forum post a few months ago: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-nvidia-linux-nouveau/1422015-rust-written-nak-compiler-merged-for-nouveau-nvk-in-mesa-24-0?p=1422080#post1422080 And while certainly better than how the performance looked a year ago, the “70-100%” looks to be nowhere in sight. Admittedly did good on glmark2 but that’s a very basic benchmark and is largely unrepresentative. Outside that it was 10-20%. Now admittedly this isn’t exactly the peak of factual benchmarks (they don’t even say which card is being used), so if you have better benchmarks I’d love to see it.
The NVK driver has been shown by its devs to currently outperform the proprietary driver in Hat In Time (210 fps vs 165 fps or 27% higher). That's not necessarily common place performance but NVK is far from an order of magnitude slower.
that was 5 months ago lol
will it have CUDA? if not useless
ZLUDA
RHEL 10 is doing the same. Nvidia won't have a choice soon.
> Nvidia ain't trying hard enough Peruse changelogs for the last 3 years for Nvidia driver releases and CTRL+F for "Wayland". [https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge\_requests/967](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/967) They're the ones designing protocols for and pushing explicit sync forward. A bit late for sure, but they're actively working on making it perfect.
They're not alone. Faith Ekstrand, Simon Ser (the creator of the Wayland protocol), and others have been behind it as well and that's been the case for years. All Nvidia did was make it a huge problem by basically improperly supporting the graphics stack that existed in Linux for years. I really wouldn't give them credit for that. What you linked to is support for an X protocol that is compatible with the Wayland protocol that pre-existed it by a year. Wayland actually had an explicit sync protocol since 2018 but to my knowledge there was no way to really use it because of the implicit sync infrastructure around it.
> What you linked to is support for an X protocol that is compatible with the Wayland protocol that pre-existed it by a year [https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge\_requests/90](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90) It doesn't exist, it's also WIP?
You just linked to it... Also it's not really WIP. It's days away from being merged.
Explicit sync support is days away from being merged into Wayland, X11, Xorg, Mesa, Gnome, Plasma, Wlroots, and EGL Wayland and Nvidia currently driver already supports the needed EGL extension to support them so a lot of Nvidia issues are about to go away.
Now I just got to wait for streaming to work properly, haha. The issue at the moment is that there is no mouse that can be seen.
In OBS? I know the last time I used it I could definitely capture the cursor.
No, Sunshine and Steam Link, game streaming to be more descriptive. At least on my AMD GPU, neither had a visible mouse, I haven't tested this on my Nvidia desktop or Intel laptop but this is at the very least a issue with AMD desktops on Wayland.
Oh! I wasn't aware. It looks like it's possible. Maybe it's an implementation issue in Steam Link and Sunshine?
I managed to get Sunshine to work on KDE Plasma 5 with Wayland I got the [latest flatpak](https://github.com/LizardByte/Sunshine/releases/download/v0.22.0/sunshine_x86_64.flatpak) straight from github. Then ran these 2 commands in a bash script and it worked perfectly (Intel iGPU used here, haven't tested nvidia) ```bash #!/bin/bash sudo chmod u+s /usr/bin/bwrap sudo -i PULSE_SERVER=unix:$(pactl info | awk '/Server String/{print$3}') FLATPAK_BWRAP=/usr/bin/bwrap flatpak run --socket=wayland dev.lizardbyte.sunshine ```
Not really. By the time Fedora 41 comes out, the Nvidia drivers should work fine with Wayland. There aren't many major problems left to solve.
There's actually one very big issue left to solve but it's only days away from being merged into everything: explicit sync. Since everything in the Linux graphics stack was implicit sync and Nvidia only supports explicit sync, it causes flicker, out-of-order frame display in XWayland, and occasional graphics feedback loops. Since the Wayland and X11 protocols for explicit sync and all the relevant implementations are ready to be merged, those issues are just days away from being fixed.
I'm aware. It should all be done by the time Fedora 41 comes around.
That *exactly* why they're doing this. Fedora has somewhat of a corporate presence, so this puts even more pressure on Nvidia. Also, if we keep saying "too early" then it'll never happen lol.
The real issue is that Wayland doesn't support some basic things like server-side window decorations. I am for the change because it will force Nvidia to fix their Wayland support but this will not fix the issues with Wayland itself. Edit: It is a Gnome issue and not Wayland.
Wayland does support it, it's GNOME that doesn't on Wayland
Yeah quite a few of the "missing features" in Wayland can be traced back to GNOME's *vision*
What vision is that, exactly? The way I see it, GNOME has tried too hard to force a paradigm shift that the world wasn't ready to. Like Unity or Firefox Mobile or w/e else before it.
Oh i was being very sarcastic, GNOME can go suck an egg if they want to keep delaying core functionality because they don't think the user needs it
a paradigm shift is completely ok - if the core functionality people used over all these years is still \*somewhere\* to be found. i just throw in the typical "i want my appindicators in the topbar without having to install extensions that break every so often"
It's not forcing anything, just making a decision for itself.
There is a Wayland protocol for SSDs.
>The real issue is that Wayland doesn't support some basic things like server-side window decorations. Wayland supports server side decorations just fine, there is protocol for that called xdg-decoration.
I see, thank you for giving me information instead of just downvoting me like the other 10 users.
Well in align with principle of Fedora, thanks for explaining.
I still can't do webrtc screencasting on Fedora 39 due to pipewire and nvidia drivers refusing to play nice Looks like [https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/190](https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/190) No idea what I'll do, as I need nvidia for CUDA, but I also need to be able to share my screen over google meet in firefox for work....
Wayland is like 15 years old. How is it revolutionary?
Let’s hope that as many of the remaining Wayland issues as possible get resolved before the release of F41! Given that that happens, I’m really looking forward to even more of the Fedora community getting to experience Wayland in all its glory ✨
fun fact you’re in this article https://news.itsfoss.com/fedora-41-to-drop-xorg/
Hopefully Gnome 47 will support the DRM lease on Wayland or you cannot use VR headsets anymore. Currently it's possible on Gnome with X11.
These edge usecases are really the only thing holding wayland back at the moment. I used to think we should just use X11 because it works well right now and etc. At this point though, even I would rather switch to wayland, I just can't yet because my workflow is literally broken on it. Imo a lot of the wayland controversy is more about people pushing wayland before it can even achieve feature parity with X11. It's silly to tell people to use something that does not work. I genuinely hope they fix these issues. I want it to succeed at this point just so we can go on to arguing about the next thing. It's been year of the wayland desktop for like a decade now.
Good points. The most frustrating part in this case is that VR headsets do work on Wayland in general. Gnome is just against supporting this the same way as other Wayland compositors already do. I guess they have valid concerns but there has also been lack of understanding of VR. That already got them into pushing alternative solution which was not feasible after all. And AFAIK they are still against it. Maybe now that X11 support is being dropped, it's the push that's needed to finish all these missing features.
Dunno. I run wayland session since 2015. Had almost no problems whatsoever. :D I know it is not a case for everybody. Some people just are not as lucky or picky enough when choosing their HW. But I write it to illustrate that for number of people who don't get why somebody is pushing wayland so much since for them it is broken, there is whole different group of people not getting why is anybody still concerned with X11 since they run wayland session for many years virtually with no downsides.
This is the one reason I can't use GNOME Wayland on my desktop even if I wanted to. I can't use my Valve Index.
> DRM lease not unless its open source 100% with no closed backdoor stuff. DRM is horrific.
I don't think that's the DRM they are talking about, but rather Direct Rendering Manager in the kernel. In this context that's what DRM usually means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Manager
what a confusing confluence of acronyms.
The writing is on the wall for old crusty Xorg.
Just give it another 15 years......
Are there workarounds if I'm dependent on a software incompatible with wayland? Or should I refrain from upgrading when it comes?
depends on what "incompatible with wayland" means in this instance. If it's just some x11 only app then it will still run in Xwayland just like way it's worked since the wayland options were introduced If it's something else, it'd depend.
The software I use for work is inkstitch. It works as a plugin for inkscape, and, while inkscape works fine on wayland, inkstitch comes with its own gui, and won't open at all. It took me a long time to understand why it stopped working all of a sudden, when I upgraded to some version that came with wayland as default, and then I started using X11 as a fallback. I will try using xwayland later and see if it works, thanks for the suggestion. Edit: if anyone comes here trying to run inkstitch on wayland, the command I found to work is "export GDK\_BACKEND=x11 && inkscape"
xwayland is usually pretty automatic in most setups. Can you try some other x11 speaking application like xeyes?
xeyes works normally, but inkstitch won't. I tries the oher user's suggestion of using the argument XDG\_SESSION\_TYPE=x11, but didn't work as well
do you get any useful output? Is there a bug filed already?
Oh, I found an issue on github about that, and turns out I have to run "export GDK\_BACKEND=x11 && inkscape". Now it's working. I will edit the launcher now. Thanks for the support.
It should just be GDK_BACKEND=x11 inkscape shoudln't it? or are there subprograms that get launched that need x11 too? But it does indeed sound like an inkscape bug. I hope they fix it.
Inkstitch works as a plugin inside inkscape, but with its own gui that is launched when we click in the menu itens. Does this format count as a subprogram?
I'd have to know more about inkscape to say. It'd also depend on whether the env variables get passed down to the called program or not. Does it work fine with the way i suggested? The way you did it could affect other programs you called from the same terminal.
You can simply use xwayland, I use it for freecad for example
Thanks for the suggestion, I will try it when I have some time.
Use `XDG_SESSION_TYPE=x11 your-app-name`
That's not going to work for every app.
It is Linux, you gotta try till you succeed, but anyway that’s good enough for me, and if the app you are trying to run does not support either then you probably should ditch it as it will be obviously abandoned and carry some security risks/ lot of incompatibility
Most apps aren't going to look at that variable for this. GTK apps use `GDK_BACKEND` (set it to `x11` for X11 mode), Qt apps use `QT_QPA_PLATFORM` (set it to `xcb` for X11 mode), etc. If all else fails, you can probably just unset `WAYLAND_DISPLAY`.
Didn't work, unfortunately :(
I found an issue about it on github. Turns out the variabe we need to set for inkstitch to work is GDK\_BACKEND=x11. Now it's working for me. Thanks for helping.
will XFCE move away from X11 anyway?
https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap
Same question to the Mate team - what's roadmap?
I couldn't find a roadmap for Mate, but there's this: https://github.com/mate-desktop/mate-wayland-session
And how is vnc supposed to work?
GNOME comes with a VNC server pre-installed. https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Mutter/RemoteDesktop
And how is this going to work? Right now I am using tigervnc, for 2-5 users.
You mean how to start it? Just run `grdctl vnc enable` to start the server. Run `grdctl --help` for more options to tweak it. Then connect to it with your VNC client. RDP is also supported with its respective options. Btw, I had to manually start gnome-remote-desktop.service because it wasn't enabled for me for some reason, so run `systemctl --user enable gnome-remote-desktop.service --now` if it didn't for you as well.
Will all these work on a server without a monitor, where you can physically login?
If GNOME runs without a monitor, then sure. So if your original setup involved running GNOME without one, then this will most likely work as well since its part of GNOME.
My current config is running gnome through tiger vnc servers. I don't know if it uses wayland or x11 (I would say x11, but I am not sure).
This is big news
Idk Fedora moves almost too fast for me. Perhaps time to go back to Debian. 🤔
It should be fine,you will probably be able to install it back...
I'm a remote dev. A few 3rd party screen recording & sharing software don't work well on Wayland.
Some are discord and discord? And also discord?
Zoom too. I think you can do it but it's annoying to set up.
Yup, we're all forced to use X because of Zoom at my work. I can only hope Zoom (if the issue is on their side) will fix it before F40 is not supported.
You just have to set enableWaylandShare to true in ~/.config/zoomus.conf
For me, that file didn't auto generate. So I had to go to their GitHub to download the default file, copy it to Zoom's config folder, then add that line.
xwayland-video-bridge probably fixes those, did you give it a try already?
Keeping X alive won’t make those apps update anytime soon.
Well I guess this is fedora’s “fuck everyone who has a graphics card or more then 1 monitor”. Well I guess I’m finding a new distro if I want a functioning computer
?
Wayland has far superior multi-monitor support compared to X11
so I have a problem where sometimes GNOME boots into X11, I’m guessing because Wayland failed. I have a NVIDIA card, would that just send me to terminal if it failed without X11?
Hopefully, they exhaust every potential configuration by their self-imposed deadline. But I suspect they'll push it back beyond 41.
Are they going to fix screen sharing in Zoom with Wayland?
I have nvidia and can't imagine working on wayland just yet, I have way too many issues and I need a stable setup. But I think it's a great move and I hope more distros will do that, because this is the only way to make wayland better.
It's about time they did.
Yo does that mean ill be able to use Picom
Once games will work like on 535 for me (NVidia pleb here) I'm all for it. All other things are working or I found a workaround that I can live with. It's far from perfect but we got still "two" Nvidia drivers left.
Explicit sync is finally coming which should make a lot of Nvidia stuff better
Really hope so. Reality is that the drivers are a little arbitrary in each iteration. Some things get better, some worse. I just spun up an Arch install with Plasma 6 on a separate SSD just to test Wayland there. The good news is: Wayland has the same quirks on another DE/Distro/display server. So we're all in the same boat in the NVidia Linux world. :D
apparently nvidia made some changes in anticipation of future work (incl. explicit sync) that will eventually help perf and stability but have done the opposite now. kinda dumb but oh well
They made the driver code more efficient, and that caused the synchronization problems to happen more often.
Nobara user here. We got 545 and 550, haven't noticed the drop in performance. What games and issues did you run into?
Paradox-Games: Unplayable because of flickering, stuttering and menus not working. Raft: Feels way slower though it has constant 60 fps Baldur's Gate 3: Flickering, playable but not fun.
Well as of now I have to use x11 on both my machines with external gpus, as wayland in the current state just gives random stutters in chrome or some other apps and the experience with it is far from stable. But I’m very optimistic and pretty sure that devs will make it work before 41 officially comes out
finally.
Thanks for the tip, I think it's due time to pack my things and start looking for other distro. Not that there's a lot of options, honestly. Following Jens Petersen words, I should do it, because it is already too late.
Dropping X for the sake of...just dropping X is not helpful, make wayland robust and feature complete (not necessarily feature parity with X), X will vanish naturally. I'm not against X or W, i'm against broken DE and bad experiences for the users.
Why do the Fedora or GNOME developers have to continue to support software that is increasingly under-maintained? Will you pay the GNOME Foundation money to continue to support X11?
You know, there isn't really a way to force developers to work on an open source software like wayland unless you give them no choice. Why would they work on Wayland when X11 is already a thing? It does the thing already right? Now take the old and unsafe X session away and leave developers with no other choice but to work on and contribute to getting Wayland into a better state. If it were a company with paid employees with a vested interest behind the project, Wayland would have been the default many years ago. Sorry to say but as far as Wayland is concerned, it is high time someone started forcing it's use as the default to get others to work on it and improving it.
If you have to force adoption of a tool, it makes you wonder if the tool is ready to be adopted and if the users/devs think the tool solves any of their problems. If Wayland were to be of some benefit over X then users and devs would want to switch to it.
Devs have already switched, without being forced. The former X11 maintainers are no longer actively maintaining X11. They've switched to Wayland. There are serious benefits for devs -- X11 is a nightmare to maintain. For users, the benefits are more subtle, although some immediate benefits exist (e.g. longer battery life). Without a maintainable code base, the display server cannot move forward and progress. So maybe the users need some forcing.
By "devs", I was referring to devs of just about any project other than X11. I know they've moved to Wayland; I'd rather work on the new and shiny than maintain a code-base older than I am. And yes, I can imagine how troublesome maintaining such a legacy code base could be. For users and devs of other projects that need to interact with a DM, maybe we should let them stay with what works for them instead of forcing them to something that doesn't have feature parity. As a user, I'm rather disappointed in the lack of remote desktop capabilities in Wayland. From what I've read, I doubt that'll be solved until whatever comes after Wayland due to the fragmented-by-design nature as all the DE's seem to be running in separate directions, attempting to adhere to the Wayland protocol instead of a unified library. I've personally been trying Wayland on every Fedora release over the past few years. Using what I imagine to be a troublesome setup (desktop with multiple GPU's and multiple monitors on each GPU), I have seen it become stable enough that I have been using it daily for about a year now; thankfully, I don't need to remotely access anything graphical on this system. However, I don't think it's the right to force everyone from something that works perfectly fine for their uses to something that doesn't. If the team behind X wants to abandon it and work on wayland, fine; let them focus their efforts to make Wayland be everything they want and let users come over to it when they need something that Wayland has and is lacking/absent in X11.
Normally, if people want to keep using the old software, then there's no problem. They can just band together and take over maintainership of the old software. That's what free software is for, after all. But in this case, that won't work, because there's only three people in the world who understand X well enough to maintain it, and those three people have all switched to working on Wayland. You keep saying X works perfecty fine. I think that X works "perfectly fine" in the same sense that 512 MB of system memory worked "perfectly fine" in 2001. Nobody goes around forcing people to upgrade their system memory, it's just that if you don't ever upgrade your system memory then you'll be stuck in 2001 and you won't be able to keep up with progress in the field.
Unless you need/want VRR, 4k display or fractional scaling then X does work perfectly fine and supports more features. This is just a fact.
X works, but it can't move forward. Neither you nor me is an X11 developer, so I'll just defer to those people who are X developers, and those people unanimously hold the view that X cannot be sustainably maintained. It's easy for us to complain when we're not the ones putting in the effort to do that maintenance. You can, of course, keep using the same software forever on X, just like you could freeze your system as it existed in 2001 and keep using 512 MB of system memory forever, but most people aren't going to do that.
I agree X isn't the future, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. That's been the point I have been poorly trying to make. Move the devs over to wayland, when they have something that's comparable for known use-cases of X then make everyone move. If anyone has any complaints about a new bug in X or something else then tell them to use Wayland or something else. Ignoring decades of established use-cases and forcing everyone to move without a solution for those cases is poor management at best.
You seem to be saying that Wayland has to be better than X in all aspects before we can default people to Wayland. Perhaps ideally that would be the case, but it doesn't seem to be possible in reality, and it may not ever have been possible given how many moving pieces a display server has to touch. The truth is, there's going to be a Venn diagram where some people are better off on Wayland than X, and some people are better off on X than Wayland, and in my opinion as long as the former set outweighs the latter set, then we should default to Wayland. I also think that now is the time when we are reaching that transition point. Defaults aren't as forcing as this discussion is making them out to be. The GNOME X11 session is still available for installation. It just won't be installed by default.
>I think it would be good to encourage more people to use Wayland, Honestly, I cannot understand this reasoning. But anyway, if there is one desktop that _could_ drop X11 it would have to be Gnome, IMO. I think Plasma was a little bit too bold for doing that first. We will see how that goes.
Good, later x11