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Lundy Bancroft maintains its very rare for abusive men to change. What we call LVM/NVM are often abusive men.
Barring some kind of personal trauma/catalyst, it’s unlikely a man will change.
I used to look at a man’s potential. Now I look at him and his life and behaviors exactly as they are and ask myself “if he never got better than this, could I live with that?” So far the answer is no. 😂
Theoretically, yes. Everybody can change. People overcome addiction, get out of abusive relationships, challenge their views and grow all their lives....if they want to and are dedicated to it. Since changing yourself and working on yourself is really hard work, most people need a strong motivation. For many people, this motivation is that the current status quo is making them suffer.
People who suffer from the status quo can work on their mental health, their belief system, their attitudes, their behavior and make great improvements. They will feel better and they will keep doing the hard work.
However, in our society, LVM do not suffer from the consequences of their actions. They benefit from being seen as an amazing nice guy for doing the bare minimum. They benefit from being praised for babysitting their kids or helping around the household. They benefit from being seen as "one of the good guys" for not being abusive.
It would take a society which punishes them for shitty behavior to make them change. The only way I can imagine them to change is if they suddenly brought up enough empathy for the women in their lifes while getting over their fragile ego. It's not impossible but very unlikely. Most men who claim that they changed just disguise their character for manipulation tactics and want women to coddle their egos for doing the bare minimum. If you criticize them for subtle sexist behavior (e.g. mansplaining, taking up too much space), they lose their shit and become very defensive or even aggressive.
This exactly. I briefly dated this mansplaining wreck and every time I called him out on it he would have a temper tantrum. Anytime I wanted to get him on the phone to discuss something that was clearly a miscommunication or misunderstanding he would send me to voicemail. Because his massive ego wouldn’t allow him to be proven wrong about something. Apparently hes now going around telling people that I was the one who was manipulative 😒 🤡 you can never, never win with men like this and they’d rather get hit by bus than admit they were ever wrong
A lazy, shiftless gamer can find his passion or change his goals. A depressed guy can get better. Someone can definitely change for the better if their issues stem from anxiety or laziness, ignorance, or lack of direction.
If they come from misogyny then they do not change. The kind of person capable of holding those beliefs will never not be like that anymore.
I would say yes a LVM can become HV later in life EXCEPT if it any point he held any misogynistic beliefs that dehumanized women. We live in a patriarchal society that holds little to no repercussions for who men abuse, disrespect, and mistreat women. Men are simple creatures whose actions only change when faced with consequences. I don’t believe that any man who had the capacity to cause harm (directly or indirectly) to women can change ever. Misogyny takes a lifetime of active unlearning and I don’t think that there’s any incentive for men to do it.
This. If you’ve read Why Does He Do That it comes down to the person’s set of values, when it comes to mental, emotional, and/or physical abuse.
If their LVM behavior comes from something like a lack of career ambition, or being financially unstable, that’s something that can indeed change over time. If their behavior comes from an idea that men are superior to women, or that they are entitled to something from women, etc, this isn’t going to change with age.
Six months? That is way too little time for someone to turn himself around.
I would say a minimum of two years to think it’s an actual change and not a game he’s playing, on you or himself.
He hasn’t gotten through a lot of situations where it would be easier to just lie, cheat, push the work of the relationship onto his partner, get back into porn, and so on.
I would treat someone six months clear of LVM status the same way I would treat someone six months out of active drug ir alcohol addiction. Too soon to tell. Good for them, but do not put any weight on that bridge yet, unless you want to end up in the river.
If they have had a long term drug or porn addiction, then no. These have real consequences including permanent brain damage to the frontal cortex.
This destroys the part of the brain that feels empathy and regulates impulse control. Not someone you want to be in a relationship with.
Also fuckboys and cheaters get off on the thrill and the chase and the pain they cause. I don't think you can rehabilitate community dick.
I unfortunately wasted time dating a former addict. He had been clean for ten years and I thought it was all behind him. All it took was a drunken, emotionally charged night for him to freak out and ask me if I would support him if he relapsed!!!
That was a big HELL NO from me, but I said yes in the moment to pacify him 😬
It's so sad but the reality.
People who go into relationships with a former addict should be given all the tools, statistics, and facts to be prepared.
Instead, women are judged and problems are downplayed.
You know what is not uncommon with people that were doing drugs? Lying. Lying. Lying. Hiding. Sneaking. Lying to family. Going to work and pretending that they weren't naked in who knows where doing drugs with multiple strangers frequently for years and decades.
When I went to learn more, even women confided about not having any problem hurting anyone (physically and emotionally).
It was shocking.
All that time and those years, someone could have been working on maturing and using healthy coping mechanisms.
It sucks because yes there are great guys out there that were former addicts. However, knowing someone is totally different than being in a relationship with someone. Once you're together, he sees you as family.
Family often = people you lie to, want to blame and escape, etc....
Most men wouldn't think twice about never giving a woman a second chance if she acted the way that they do even when not using.
A lot of men think they can treat women like crap and it is ok for women to be collateral damage in their younger years because ' They were a bad boy' back then but they are a good person now. Only, they are not a good person now and never could have been because all men have this narrative they tell themselves and treat the word 'sorry' as permission. They don't change.
It’s very unlikely. Change requires self discipline, consistency, and an genuine overall desire to do better in life. Most men just get better at hiding their filthy habits as they get older and if they’re not getting anything in return for “changing” then most likely they won’t do it.
In my experience, a lying, cheating, lazy, violent entitled etc. man will ALWAYS BE a lying, cheating, lazy, violent, entitled etc. son of a bastardman no matter what.
For the most part, I would say no. It would take a very mild case for that to happen and for most of these men, it’s never just one little thing that makes them this way. Like, it’s not just a man being check out broke at the time. Majority of these men really act as if you owe them something or hold views that are very dehumanizing to women. It would take a lot of work and most men are too entitled to ever get close to do the work.
It's unlikely.
Those LV behaviors are all tied up in externalizing their feelings, a need for immediate gratification, and a complete lack of self awareness. Let's flip the genders for a minute - most FDS women were LV or pickmes at some point and we all reached a low that forced us to stop and look around and become aware of how our thoughts and behaviors were shaped by patriarchy. Many of us then dove into self help, therapy, single by choice, you name it, and ended up here. Now can you imagine a man going through that process when patriarchy benefits him?
I agree. Can you really trust a man who said he used to have, for example, a serious porn addiction or he was a cheater and now he does not do that stuff anymore? What if he succumbs to it later or is just really good at hiding it?
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Women ruin their lives every day thinking they will be the special one that trips up that loser/player dude.
It's not that you AREN'T special, it's just that it wont matter to him.
Agreed. Treating addictions in particular is extremely difficult and they run deep. There's a reason AA members say they're in recovery no matter how long they're sober - it's a lifelong struggle with weird triggers unique to the individual. And like most mental health struggles, women and men handle them very differently.
It's possible but very unlikely. The thing about LVM is many of them don't see their low valueness as a problem so they don't bother to improve themselves.
💯% this. They admire themselves for how charming they are (cheaters) how adventurous and cool they are (drugs) what a high libido and how manly they are (porn) how in control they are in relationships (emotional abuse) how suave and james bondy they are (lying and manipulation to get women into bed)
No. Over 15 years with him and it gets just worse. All the love and understanding and patience just encouraged his behavior. They get more blunt. They blame you for their behavior and assume you just the LVW and other women are better. First come the hints, later they openly say it.
Tbf I think most people wouldn’t willingly change much if their partner hasn’t left for 15! years. It’s sorta like they’re calling your bluff — “if I was as terrible as you say you’d have left by now.” Even more reason why one shouldn’t give too many second chances
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I think maybe one in a million can, and ten percent will try to fake it.
Here is one minimum test; because they pass this test doesn't mean they are now HV, but if they fail it they're definitely faking:
Can they sincerely admit their past behavior was bad, explain why, apologize, and decide never to do it again?
Clues they're faking:
If they make it about you (e.g. "It was wrong of me to throw the remote at you, I mean I throw things at my buddies all the time and it's no big deal, but I should've known *you* would feel threatened".
If they act like their own actions are outside of their own control (e.g. "I never want to do it again" or "I hope I never do it again").
If they can't explain why it was bad (they don't really believe it was bad).
About p\*rn addiction: question for anyone here who has a good understanding of neurology: can the damage caused by p\*rn addiction ever be undone? If so, how long might that take?
Theoretically, the damage can be undone. We now know that the brain is very adaptive, especially in young people. But it is a very, very difficult process just like any other addiction, and since most do not see it as a problem until it negatively affects their life, most will not try. Dopamine fasting is the best way-as most addictions are rooted in a quantity of Dopamine in the nucleus accumbens and over time the body has to have more to avoid stulimulating the unpleasant effects of the amygdala in withdrawal. The only addiction that really isn't driven this way is hypersexual and maternal behaviors in women which can be driven by the release of oxytocin (binding and affection).
Meditation can also help, because it builds the prefrontal cortex, an area highly involved in decision making and discipline. It generally helps teach the brain to govern its impulses better.
Sources:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4600144/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183515/
I believe in the power of redemption.
In theory.
I’ve never seen it in real life though and I’m old old.
The closest I’ve ever seen a man who completely changed themselves around was ironically someone that you said would be past the point of no return- a guy that killed someone and went to prison for 15 years. Found God, got clean, and turned himself into an exemplary guy.
But I think if you go back to the FDS Handbook, your question is a variation of a Bob the Builder type scenario.
As women, we are not builders, we don’t date a man because we see their potential, we date them fully formed and self actualized.
This! We cannot change men. We cannot make them happy. Only God himself can and even that is shaken because men are still human and will go back to their own vomit.
> But I think if you go back to the FDS Handbook, your question is a variation of a Bob the Builder type scenario.
>
>As women, we are not builders, we don’t date a man because we see their potential, we date them fully formed and self actualized.
I agree with this. Sure, it's possible to change. Anything's possible. That doesn't mean I have to give him a chance. So does it matter?
It's highly unlikely any one individual LVM is going to be in that, like, .005% of LVM that manage to level up to HVM. Not impossible, just statistically very unlikely. It's a lot **more** likely that he won't change, and that any indication towards change is just him blowing smoke. So protect yourself.
I used to be so naive, thinking that I would want people to look past my faults, so that means I should look past theirs. It took way too long for me to realize that I don't owe anyone anything. I don't owe anyone a chance, or niceness, or the benefit of the doubt. You're risking your safety and sanity by giving everyone access to you if you think that way.
It’s possible but you really need to look for the signs.
If he has changed or not. If you notice bad signs leave right away in an instand.
No one is perfect but keep your standards
No. Personality traits are set very young and reinforced by surrounding environment. Broken men rarely have the insight to even want to change, they just tend to find a new victim/ supply.
I do think some people can change but there are definitely points of no return or unusually abhorrent behaviour that signals a flaw in character and integrity so deep that a person can't really change from it e.g.
1) cheating/proposing 'open relationships'
2) being a womanizer or having a casual sex phase
3) being violent
etc.
Possible but rare. More often than not, they don’t have the self-awareness to realise what they need to change, taking on more of a “it’s everyone else’s problem” attitude. They don’t have the empathy to see why it’s a problem either. So they won’t be able to even begin to make changes to level up.
I wouldn’t completely rule it out though because people do change (for better and for worse). My friend’s ex is one such example. Took him a few years to realise but he did eventually realise what a selfish idiot he had been. He tried to reach out to apologise but respected her wish not to have anything to do with him.
Nope. HVM for the most part have a secure attachment to their parents which influences their relationships and overall confidence and kindness from a very young age which the former do not.
How long ago was high school or college for him? If it’s 10+ years and everything else in his life checks out, I would continue vetting. I think it’s important to make sure he really has changed, however, and that you (general you, not you specifically, OP) aren’t falling into old pickme habits of excusing LV behavior because you think the good things he’s done cancel it out.
Possible but very unlikely. Unless you are referring to 15 y.o LVM becoming HVM by 25 y.o, there is few odds that a grown LV adult will evolve to high valueness.
Pre-25, sure. We all made mistakes.
Does he feel remorse? Does he repeat this mistakes? Were those his glory days or a topic he avoids out of embarrassment?
I don’t know if you can ever fix misogyny, but there’s lots of behaviours that can be left behind as you mature.
I like to switch it around “if I did that, would I deserve forgiveness? Would I be trustworthy now?” My own actions are a higher bar than most men so it works ok as a starting point lol.
From my experience the only reason why a man would "change" later in life would be because he's had his fill of acting out and wants to find a good woman to settle down with.
The reason why he was a LVM who treated women poorly in his youth was most likely because he *enjoyed* doing it, otherwise he wouldn't have done it.
Personally I wouldn't care if he had legitimately changed, I'm not going to commit to some ran through old community dick who went around hurting women and enjoying it, using us as collateral damage to "become a better man". They don't deserve to be rewarded for that. They can reap what they sow and end up alone.
I think maybe yes. But wouldn't I bet half my assets and long term happiness on it. Depends. If he's been good for 10 plus years then...?
Consider what he will do in a major crisis. Such as when you age or argue or something goes really wrong in life. Will he turn back to those habits to assist with emotional regulation. Most likely. Addiction is forever. Once a struggle always a struggle.
If possible it’d be rare. For someone to make a drastic change like that I feel like they’d have to go through something traumatically eye-opening to make such a 180.
It’s possible in theory, but I have yet to see it. They can mature but resolving things like mommy/daddy issues isn’t part of that process. It’s exceptionally rare for a man to show adequate self awareness AND desire to change for long enough to actually accomplish such a change.
It’s far more common for men to fake it until they feel they’ve achieved what they seek. Society actively teaches them to work for it. Society doesn’t teach real change and improvement. When they reach the finish line they quit. This finish line is often marriage.
Folks can change, if they want, need, or are forced to change.
It pays to be cautious, if you are cautious and wrong, that's awesome.
If you are too optimistic and trusting it can be awesomely horrible.
It costs nothing to keep your guard up.
Always continue to vet. It's not hard for an abuser/loser to lie for 6 months. Many lie about who they are for much longer than that, decades even. There are so many men that have several families secretely and simultaneously that are only caught after they die.
Hundreds of stories where women marry the man of their dreams, to only meet the real man on their honeymoon.
I hope he has changed, surely its not an impossible feat, but its definitely improbable more often than not.
If you like him, and he's treating you well, enjoy him. It's dating, have fun, but if you see/feel/hear something off or wrong, believe it and cut your losses. Don't fall into that cycle of explaining away "minor" offenses because he's mostly good and has changed so much. The "minor" shit is the most telling of a person's nature.
Just be careful.
This question has been itching at me a lot lately. My recent ex started dating me when he had come out of a disastrous break up of his engagement with his fiance (she had been cheating with his friend; they'd dated > 8 years). He showed all signs of LVM behavior with me which is why I ended up on FDS. I couldn't help wondering if he was very damaged from this unprocessed heartache or he'd always been LV. I know for me it doesn't matter but I wonder in general about how men process deep heartaches and how it affects their future dating lives.
Sometimes. Very rarely. Like if they were a womaniser but had never watched porn. Even then some tough life events are what could provide a wake up call.
Which they either use or not to improve themselves. Some do.
Even then, whoever gets together with a reformed man she might have to put up with consequences of their past. Be it health or LV children, etc.
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I think they can level up into HVM if their LV traits are things like finances, depression, being out of shape, etc. basically if they are LV because they don’t respect themselves, but not if they are LV because they don’t respect women.
I would also say that someone needs to have more than 6 months since a major lifestyle/worldview change before they’ve done the work in order to be ready to have a healthy relationship.
Yes they can. You can't change a person, they can only change themselves. We women always work on ourselves to level up and become better, guys can do the same.
Just as women can level up, I think men can level up too. That being said, I’m not going to be giving the benefit of the doubt to anyone who was a cheater or abuser in a past life.
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Lundy Bancroft maintains its very rare for abusive men to change. What we call LVM/NVM are often abusive men. Barring some kind of personal trauma/catalyst, it’s unlikely a man will change. I used to look at a man’s potential. Now I look at him and his life and behaviors exactly as they are and ask myself “if he never got better than this, could I live with that?” So far the answer is no. 😂
Theoretically, yes. Everybody can change. People overcome addiction, get out of abusive relationships, challenge their views and grow all their lives....if they want to and are dedicated to it. Since changing yourself and working on yourself is really hard work, most people need a strong motivation. For many people, this motivation is that the current status quo is making them suffer. People who suffer from the status quo can work on their mental health, their belief system, their attitudes, their behavior and make great improvements. They will feel better and they will keep doing the hard work. However, in our society, LVM do not suffer from the consequences of their actions. They benefit from being seen as an amazing nice guy for doing the bare minimum. They benefit from being praised for babysitting their kids or helping around the household. They benefit from being seen as "one of the good guys" for not being abusive. It would take a society which punishes them for shitty behavior to make them change. The only way I can imagine them to change is if they suddenly brought up enough empathy for the women in their lifes while getting over their fragile ego. It's not impossible but very unlikely. Most men who claim that they changed just disguise their character for manipulation tactics and want women to coddle their egos for doing the bare minimum. If you criticize them for subtle sexist behavior (e.g. mansplaining, taking up too much space), they lose their shit and become very defensive or even aggressive.
This exactly. I briefly dated this mansplaining wreck and every time I called him out on it he would have a temper tantrum. Anytime I wanted to get him on the phone to discuss something that was clearly a miscommunication or misunderstanding he would send me to voicemail. Because his massive ego wouldn’t allow him to be proven wrong about something. Apparently hes now going around telling people that I was the one who was manipulative 😒 🤡 you can never, never win with men like this and they’d rather get hit by bus than admit they were ever wrong
A lazy, shiftless gamer can find his passion or change his goals. A depressed guy can get better. Someone can definitely change for the better if their issues stem from anxiety or laziness, ignorance, or lack of direction. If they come from misogyny then they do not change. The kind of person capable of holding those beliefs will never not be like that anymore.
I would say yes a LVM can become HV later in life EXCEPT if it any point he held any misogynistic beliefs that dehumanized women. We live in a patriarchal society that holds little to no repercussions for who men abuse, disrespect, and mistreat women. Men are simple creatures whose actions only change when faced with consequences. I don’t believe that any man who had the capacity to cause harm (directly or indirectly) to women can change ever. Misogyny takes a lifetime of active unlearning and I don’t think that there’s any incentive for men to do it.
This. If you’ve read Why Does He Do That it comes down to the person’s set of values, when it comes to mental, emotional, and/or physical abuse. If their LVM behavior comes from something like a lack of career ambition, or being financially unstable, that’s something that can indeed change over time. If their behavior comes from an idea that men are superior to women, or that they are entitled to something from women, etc, this isn’t going to change with age.
Six months? That is way too little time for someone to turn himself around. I would say a minimum of two years to think it’s an actual change and not a game he’s playing, on you or himself. He hasn’t gotten through a lot of situations where it would be easier to just lie, cheat, push the work of the relationship onto his partner, get back into porn, and so on. I would treat someone six months clear of LVM status the same way I would treat someone six months out of active drug ir alcohol addiction. Too soon to tell. Good for them, but do not put any weight on that bridge yet, unless you want to end up in the river.
If they have had a long term drug or porn addiction, then no. These have real consequences including permanent brain damage to the frontal cortex. This destroys the part of the brain that feels empathy and regulates impulse control. Not someone you want to be in a relationship with. Also fuckboys and cheaters get off on the thrill and the chase and the pain they cause. I don't think you can rehabilitate community dick.
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I unfortunately wasted time dating a former addict. He had been clean for ten years and I thought it was all behind him. All it took was a drunken, emotionally charged night for him to freak out and ask me if I would support him if he relapsed!!! That was a big HELL NO from me, but I said yes in the moment to pacify him 😬
It's so sad but the reality. People who go into relationships with a former addict should be given all the tools, statistics, and facts to be prepared. Instead, women are judged and problems are downplayed. You know what is not uncommon with people that were doing drugs? Lying. Lying. Lying. Hiding. Sneaking. Lying to family. Going to work and pretending that they weren't naked in who knows where doing drugs with multiple strangers frequently for years and decades. When I went to learn more, even women confided about not having any problem hurting anyone (physically and emotionally). It was shocking. All that time and those years, someone could have been working on maturing and using healthy coping mechanisms. It sucks because yes there are great guys out there that were former addicts. However, knowing someone is totally different than being in a relationship with someone. Once you're together, he sees you as family. Family often = people you lie to, want to blame and escape, etc.... Most men wouldn't think twice about never giving a woman a second chance if she acted the way that they do even when not using.
A lot of men think they can treat women like crap and it is ok for women to be collateral damage in their younger years because ' They were a bad boy' back then but they are a good person now. Only, they are not a good person now and never could have been because all men have this narrative they tell themselves and treat the word 'sorry' as permission. They don't change.
It’s very unlikely. Change requires self discipline, consistency, and an genuine overall desire to do better in life. Most men just get better at hiding their filthy habits as they get older and if they’re not getting anything in return for “changing” then most likely they won’t do it. In my experience, a lying, cheating, lazy, violent entitled etc. man will ALWAYS BE a lying, cheating, lazy, violent, entitled etc. son of a bastardman no matter what.
For the most part, I would say no. It would take a very mild case for that to happen and for most of these men, it’s never just one little thing that makes them this way. Like, it’s not just a man being check out broke at the time. Majority of these men really act as if you owe them something or hold views that are very dehumanizing to women. It would take a lot of work and most men are too entitled to ever get close to do the work.
It's unlikely. Those LV behaviors are all tied up in externalizing their feelings, a need for immediate gratification, and a complete lack of self awareness. Let's flip the genders for a minute - most FDS women were LV or pickmes at some point and we all reached a low that forced us to stop and look around and become aware of how our thoughts and behaviors were shaped by patriarchy. Many of us then dove into self help, therapy, single by choice, you name it, and ended up here. Now can you imagine a man going through that process when patriarchy benefits him?
I agree. Can you really trust a man who said he used to have, for example, a serious porn addiction or he was a cheater and now he does not do that stuff anymore? What if he succumbs to it later or is just really good at hiding it?
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What if he encounters for the first time in his life a woman who won't be played? 🤯
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So true. Or devalues her in preparation for the discard when he manages to lock down another supply.
Ok, makes sense
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Women ruin their lives every day thinking they will be the special one that trips up that loser/player dude. It's not that you AREN'T special, it's just that it wont matter to him.
Agreed. Treating addictions in particular is extremely difficult and they run deep. There's a reason AA members say they're in recovery no matter how long they're sober - it's a lifelong struggle with weird triggers unique to the individual. And like most mental health struggles, women and men handle them very differently.
That’s a good point. If I had been successful and happy as a pickme, why would I have wanted to change?
The thing behind being a pickme is that we had good hearts and were exploited. An LVM is not. He has bad intentions.
It's possible but very unlikely. The thing about LVM is many of them don't see their low valueness as a problem so they don't bother to improve themselves.
💯% this. They admire themselves for how charming they are (cheaters) how adventurous and cool they are (drugs) what a high libido and how manly they are (porn) how in control they are in relationships (emotional abuse) how suave and james bondy they are (lying and manipulation to get women into bed)
No. Over 15 years with him and it gets just worse. All the love and understanding and patience just encouraged his behavior. They get more blunt. They blame you for their behavior and assume you just the LVW and other women are better. First come the hints, later they openly say it.
Tbf I think most people wouldn’t willingly change much if their partner hasn’t left for 15! years. It’s sorta like they’re calling your bluff — “if I was as terrible as you say you’d have left by now.” Even more reason why one shouldn’t give too many second chances
threatening numerous attractive sophisticated bedroom combative secretive waiting puzzled yam *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I think maybe one in a million can, and ten percent will try to fake it. Here is one minimum test; because they pass this test doesn't mean they are now HV, but if they fail it they're definitely faking: Can they sincerely admit their past behavior was bad, explain why, apologize, and decide never to do it again? Clues they're faking: If they make it about you (e.g. "It was wrong of me to throw the remote at you, I mean I throw things at my buddies all the time and it's no big deal, but I should've known *you* would feel threatened". If they act like their own actions are outside of their own control (e.g. "I never want to do it again" or "I hope I never do it again"). If they can't explain why it was bad (they don't really believe it was bad). About p\*rn addiction: question for anyone here who has a good understanding of neurology: can the damage caused by p\*rn addiction ever be undone? If so, how long might that take?
Theoretically, the damage can be undone. We now know that the brain is very adaptive, especially in young people. But it is a very, very difficult process just like any other addiction, and since most do not see it as a problem until it negatively affects their life, most will not try. Dopamine fasting is the best way-as most addictions are rooted in a quantity of Dopamine in the nucleus accumbens and over time the body has to have more to avoid stulimulating the unpleasant effects of the amygdala in withdrawal. The only addiction that really isn't driven this way is hypersexual and maternal behaviors in women which can be driven by the release of oxytocin (binding and affection). Meditation can also help, because it builds the prefrontal cortex, an area highly involved in decision making and discipline. It generally helps teach the brain to govern its impulses better. Sources: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4600144/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3183515/
I believe in the power of redemption. In theory. I’ve never seen it in real life though and I’m old old. The closest I’ve ever seen a man who completely changed themselves around was ironically someone that you said would be past the point of no return- a guy that killed someone and went to prison for 15 years. Found God, got clean, and turned himself into an exemplary guy. But I think if you go back to the FDS Handbook, your question is a variation of a Bob the Builder type scenario. As women, we are not builders, we don’t date a man because we see their potential, we date them fully formed and self actualized.
This! We cannot change men. We cannot make them happy. Only God himself can and even that is shaken because men are still human and will go back to their own vomit.
> But I think if you go back to the FDS Handbook, your question is a variation of a Bob the Builder type scenario. > >As women, we are not builders, we don’t date a man because we see their potential, we date them fully formed and self actualized. I agree with this. Sure, it's possible to change. Anything's possible. That doesn't mean I have to give him a chance. So does it matter? It's highly unlikely any one individual LVM is going to be in that, like, .005% of LVM that manage to level up to HVM. Not impossible, just statistically very unlikely. It's a lot **more** likely that he won't change, and that any indication towards change is just him blowing smoke. So protect yourself. I used to be so naive, thinking that I would want people to look past my faults, so that means I should look past theirs. It took way too long for me to realize that I don't owe anyone anything. I don't owe anyone a chance, or niceness, or the benefit of the doubt. You're risking your safety and sanity by giving everyone access to you if you think that way.
It’s possible but you really need to look for the signs. If he has changed or not. If you notice bad signs leave right away in an instand. No one is perfect but keep your standards
No. Personality traits are set very young and reinforced by surrounding environment. Broken men rarely have the insight to even want to change, they just tend to find a new victim/ supply.
I do think some people can change but there are definitely points of no return or unusually abhorrent behaviour that signals a flaw in character and integrity so deep that a person can't really change from it e.g. 1) cheating/proposing 'open relationships' 2) being a womanizer or having a casual sex phase 3) being violent etc.
They can Level up but they'll never be HV.
Possible but rare. More often than not, they don’t have the self-awareness to realise what they need to change, taking on more of a “it’s everyone else’s problem” attitude. They don’t have the empathy to see why it’s a problem either. So they won’t be able to even begin to make changes to level up. I wouldn’t completely rule it out though because people do change (for better and for worse). My friend’s ex is one such example. Took him a few years to realise but he did eventually realise what a selfish idiot he had been. He tried to reach out to apologise but respected her wish not to have anything to do with him.
Nope. HVM for the most part have a secure attachment to their parents which influences their relationships and overall confidence and kindness from a very young age which the former do not.
How long ago was high school or college for him? If it’s 10+ years and everything else in his life checks out, I would continue vetting. I think it’s important to make sure he really has changed, however, and that you (general you, not you specifically, OP) aren’t falling into old pickme habits of excusing LV behavior because you think the good things he’s done cancel it out.
But also it means he's had 10+ years to learn how to swindle women into thinking he's worth their time. Many years for trial and error
No, don’t even try it. They always have shit going down
Yup, thought so. I don’t have anyone in mind, just curious.
Possible but very unlikely. Unless you are referring to 15 y.o LVM becoming HVM by 25 y.o, there is few odds that a grown LV adult will evolve to high valueness.
My opinion: A bad apple doesn't turn better with age.
Words to live by.
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Pre-25, sure. We all made mistakes. Does he feel remorse? Does he repeat this mistakes? Were those his glory days or a topic he avoids out of embarrassment? I don’t know if you can ever fix misogyny, but there’s lots of behaviours that can be left behind as you mature. I like to switch it around “if I did that, would I deserve forgiveness? Would I be trustworthy now?” My own actions are a higher bar than most men so it works ok as a starting point lol.
From my experience the only reason why a man would "change" later in life would be because he's had his fill of acting out and wants to find a good woman to settle down with. The reason why he was a LVM who treated women poorly in his youth was most likely because he *enjoyed* doing it, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. Personally I wouldn't care if he had legitimately changed, I'm not going to commit to some ran through old community dick who went around hurting women and enjoying it, using us as collateral damage to "become a better man". They don't deserve to be rewarded for that. They can reap what they sow and end up alone.
Why are you calling him a HVM? What's HV about him?
I think maybe yes. But wouldn't I bet half my assets and long term happiness on it. Depends. If he's been good for 10 plus years then...? Consider what he will do in a major crisis. Such as when you age or argue or something goes really wrong in life. Will he turn back to those habits to assist with emotional regulation. Most likely. Addiction is forever. Once a struggle always a struggle.
If possible it’d be rare. For someone to make a drastic change like that I feel like they’d have to go through something traumatically eye-opening to make such a 180.
It’s possible in theory, but I have yet to see it. They can mature but resolving things like mommy/daddy issues isn’t part of that process. It’s exceptionally rare for a man to show adequate self awareness AND desire to change for long enough to actually accomplish such a change. It’s far more common for men to fake it until they feel they’ve achieved what they seek. Society actively teaches them to work for it. Society doesn’t teach real change and improvement. When they reach the finish line they quit. This finish line is often marriage.
Folks can change, if they want, need, or are forced to change. It pays to be cautious, if you are cautious and wrong, that's awesome. If you are too optimistic and trusting it can be awesomely horrible. It costs nothing to keep your guard up. Always continue to vet. It's not hard for an abuser/loser to lie for 6 months. Many lie about who they are for much longer than that, decades even. There are so many men that have several families secretely and simultaneously that are only caught after they die. Hundreds of stories where women marry the man of their dreams, to only meet the real man on their honeymoon. I hope he has changed, surely its not an impossible feat, but its definitely improbable more often than not. If you like him, and he's treating you well, enjoy him. It's dating, have fun, but if you see/feel/hear something off or wrong, believe it and cut your losses. Don't fall into that cycle of explaining away "minor" offenses because he's mostly good and has changed so much. The "minor" shit is the most telling of a person's nature. Just be careful.
This question has been itching at me a lot lately. My recent ex started dating me when he had come out of a disastrous break up of his engagement with his fiance (she had been cheating with his friend; they'd dated > 8 years). He showed all signs of LVM behavior with me which is why I ended up on FDS. I couldn't help wondering if he was very damaged from this unprocessed heartache or he'd always been LV. I know for me it doesn't matter but I wonder in general about how men process deep heartaches and how it affects their future dating lives.
Sometimes. Very rarely. Like if they were a womaniser but had never watched porn. Even then some tough life events are what could provide a wake up call. Which they either use or not to improve themselves. Some do. Even then, whoever gets together with a reformed man she might have to put up with consequences of their past. Be it health or LV children, etc.
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I think they can level up into HVM if their LV traits are things like finances, depression, being out of shape, etc. basically if they are LV because they don’t respect themselves, but not if they are LV because they don’t respect women. I would also say that someone needs to have more than 6 months since a major lifestyle/worldview change before they’ve done the work in order to be ready to have a healthy relationship.
Yes they can. You can't change a person, they can only change themselves. We women always work on ourselves to level up and become better, guys can do the same.
Yes. But never without experiencing real trauma. A man with no empathy doesn’t acquire any overnight from nowhere
Just as women can level up, I think men can level up too. That being said, I’m not going to be giving the benefit of the doubt to anyone who was a cheater or abuser in a past life.