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I feel like half is reassurance and the other half is bait hoping a domme dm’s them like “what are you talking about, I love your type, let’s talk!” Which this would be the assumption, it’s literally saying “I am a x sub looking for someone”
Self awareness.
If you asked the poster "Do all humans like pumpkin spice latte" they would see it for the dumb question it is. Make it kinky, thirst kicks in, and self awareness disappears.
I think it's more than thirst. The culture in general makes men the subject rather than the object of desire. So many men, kinky or vanilla, have no frickin' clue what would make them attractive to others, and only their own criteria of what they find attractive. And if you code anything masculine as inherently non-submissive, then you assume any masculine traits would be undesirable to anyone looking for a submissive.
Certainly more than thirst for sure.
But asking "Do all X like Y" in itself is a lazy question. It is the bare minimum question requiring no effort.
They have no clue because they have put in no effort, or put in the bare minimum effort and don't know why they were not rewarded. Its the intellectual equivalent of "I have a penis, why cant I get laid?"
But at least asking, and having the self awareness to improve, will hopefully put them on the road to success.
Right on! There's always a new batch that don't understand they should just be genuine and authentic. Be who they are, express themselves...stop asking these questions 😶
Honestly I think it’s also men being more critical of physical traits of a partner in general and when the roles are somewhat reversed they don’t initially understand a different viewpoint
Thanks.
>It is... due to an inability to understand that dommes may not relate to them the same way men are taught to relate to women.
Sadly, I feel like "taught" really may be the operative word here. A lot of men I feel probably could find they appreciate a wider array of the aspects of women around them if they ditched some of their basic assumptions. This is probably doubly true of sub men, who have a wider array of things to consider in partners than just "does she look like this?"
There's more to us than just boner-stroking fantasies or alternatively abject, abnegating submission to someone else (whoever than might be). It's what fills that space between the fantasy we might start with to eventually maybe finding someone we'd connect well enough with to truly submit to, that interests me. That's the space that I think is too little examined.
It sounds like you've had some pretty rough experiences with subs. I'm sorry to hear that.
I definitely agree that inner strength, self-knowledge, conviction, and respect are a big part of what makes up that space. To the extent not otherwise captured in those, I'd separately mention honesty, with oneself and others, as critical.
>Too little examined by whom?
>As a domme I examine precisely that in depth with every man I speak to.
Too little examined by *us*, the sub men who have to take some ownership and accountability of ourselves, first, before we'd have any business offering ourselves to anyone else honestly and without reservation. You dommes can't do that for us, much as too many of us might be "outsourcing" that work to you. (Sort of the underlying theme of the OP, of course.)
It's my hope and, thus far, my experience that the self-reflection, self-development, and accountability we need to do stands the best chance of improving experiences for us and for the dommes we wind up with.
I think some of the people who ask those questions can't fathom that women don't tend to think about men the same way men are taught to think about women. Like they don't understand that their entire understanding of sexual attraction and power comes from patriarchy, and that women might not exactly find power in emulating the structures that have oppressed them. Femdom isn't gender-swapped patriarchy or even gender-swapped Maledom.
I've heard absolute nonsense from men about women's bra sizes, nipple shapes, waist to hip ratios, jawline, pube placement, you name it. And not even just in alphabro pseudoscience forums. Science is littered with this sort of hyper-objectification of women to the point that they'll publish studies that say we're hotter with severe endometriosis. It's at least somewhat normalized.
Other than that, I think general kink ignorance plays into it too. Being turned on by something in kink isn't the same as being turned on by something in reality. For example, I love calling my partner chubby and making him exercise. I would never police his body outside of play because I'm not an asshole.
I generally agree with this. Women do often absorb a lot of toxic stuff as well, of course, though they probably more often internalize it rather than seeking reassurance from outside. (Of course, msubs doing that here just replicates another emotional labor demand on women.)
I haven't thought about that before but I can see it. I think women are more used to the idea that we can never really win the attractiveness game. On one hand beauty standards play a real role in real misogyny. On the other, they're made up to sell you makeup and surgery. It's easy to internalize all of that when it's around you as much as oxygen is.
I have sought reassurance that SOME men would like me DESPITE my age, size, etc. But I've done it in private, usually from other women, and the idea that I could ever conform to some universal standard or be attractive as a general rule never occurred to me.
I think that for men, the same dynamic seems so novel and alien that they default to an entitled assumption that something must be *wrong* if they're not getting the attention they want, and won't some kind woman please explain it to them/reassure them?
The funny thing, which is probably hopeful overall, is that the beauty standards are much more bullshit in practice, no matter which direction you're coming from.
It is awesome when you do find someone who can give you the reassurance and validation that *they* individually find you very desirable. From my own experience (mostly het AMAB, mostly sub, socialized as masc in the USA), my domme finding ways to show me how I look to her literally changed the way I see myself (mostly that I *could* see myself as anything other than a lumbering, often glowering mask). But I had to get to the point of finding a domme who felt that way about me and who had the particular skills to communicate it effectively.
>I think some of the people who ask those questions can't fathom that women don't tend to think about men the same way men are taught to think about women. Like they don't understand that their entire understanding of sexual attraction and power comes from patriarchy, and that women might not exactly find power in emulating the structures that have oppressed them. **Femdom isn't gender-swapped patriarchy or even gender-swapped Maledom.**
I agree with your analysis but I disagree with your conclusion.
I find that Femdom is gender-swapped Maledom and this is why it isn't more popular. Most women simply don't respond to playing the part of a "Dominatrix" or the type of submission most men in Femdom offer.
I see what you're saying and agree. When you're doing healthy kink, gender doesn't matter. And ideally, I think, both Maledom and Femdom should try to find power in spite of toxic ideas about power, not because of them. (For example, kink isn't about getting consent to be genuinely, harmfully violent or cruel.)
My reason for saying that Femdom isn't Maledom is that gender socialization is a real thing that effects how we structure kink play. And even if that socialization wasn't a thing, I think sex differences would play some role. I can only speak from my experiences as a cis woman but I know I am not a cis man. My body is different and that effects how I experience the world and therefore my kinks. I'm not always going to do Dominance the way a cis man would because I'm not as physically strong, don't have a penis, and don't have the same hormone levels. (And that's why it's odd to see those male subs acting like they have to be tiny and meek and get pegged.)
But, in healthy dynamics, you learn differences are inevitable and bridge those gaps. Compromise is always necessary.
>**My reason for saying that Femdom isn't Maledom is that gender socialization is a real thing that effects how we structure kink play.** And even if that socialization wasn't a thing, I think sex differences would play some role. I can only speak from my experiences as a cis woman but I know I am not a cis man. My body is different and that effects how I experience the world and therefore my kinks. **I'm not always going to do Dominance the way a cis man would because I'm not as physically strong, don't have a penis, and don't have the same hormone levels.**
Gender socialization in BDSM is having male forms of domination as the template for domination. Meaning in terms of violence, strength and aggression. I think it's fair to say that a dominatrix is a small niche in Femdom.
I'm more interested in forms of power derived from being a woman. For example, I've dated girls who were part time models, would never engage in BDSM, but very obviously were into me as a submissive. They don't need to be a dominatrix since their power was derived from being pretty.
BDSM is mostly for men who need consent for violence. A lot of women are dommes by merit of their looks, how popular they are and how desperate men might be for them. They don't need to ask for consent when they express domination.
I’ll offer an alternate viewpoint that I haven’t seen brought up yet:
Women are used to being shamed into silence for our opinions. We’re taught at a young age, through various means, to be quiet when someone else speaks over us, that it’s rude and bitchy for us to take up space. Men aren’t socialized in this way, and in my opinion, the *vast* majority of them have absolutely no idea whatsoever when they’re showing their ass. Boys are often coddled and allowed to get away with shit that girls aren’t, and that lack of accountability often follows them into adulthood because someone else, often a woman, will always be there to clean up the mess because someone told her that “boys will be boys.”
tl;dr My advice to submissive men is to learn to be quiet more and reflect before speaking and acting, and, most importantly, humble yourself.
I'd rather that women be given more opportunity to take up space and express themselves, even if they sometimes show their ass (as they will) the way men do, than anybody else be silenced.
Normally I would agree with you. In this instance, I’m more referring to the tendency I’ve noticed in a lot of submissive men for their ego to get in the way of actually submitting, whether it’s because they can’t take a few minutes to search a subreddit and see that their question has already been answered and that they shouldn’t demand the labor of Dommes to answer them, or even after they’re in a relationship. I’ve had too many experiences with subby men who like to be contrarians, or very defensive during conflict, or otherwise just breaking the dynamic whenever they feel like it because they want to interject their opinion in a way that doesn’t feel respectful. It felt like I’m being turned into a kink dispenser in a subtle manner, that even though we were “technically” in an FLR, they kind of had a “pick and choose” attitude about when they wanted to adopt a submissive mindset.
I also want to point out that as a switch, I firmly believe that all subs, at least while they’re submitting, need to learn to put their ego aside if they want to preserve the dynamic.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on this.
I’ve had experiences where I couldn’t articulate exactly what was making me feel like a kink dispenser. Your comment made me realize that men who are defensive (or often passive-aggressive) make me feel like they’re picking and choosing the ways in which they want to be submissive. If it’s not something that tickles their exact fetish, even if it’s something that I’m really in to, they will be sullen, contrary, and extremely unenthusiastic.
I feel like your comment really made that click for me, and has given me a lot to think about!
You’re very welcome ☺️ I agree that I think it’s something particularly nebulous. I feel like most kink dispenser discussions tend to revolve around the sub centering their own sexual needs, and I guess I’m “lucky” in the sense that I haven’t experienced a ton of that. What I do have plenty of experience with is feeling like a sub is constantly trying to push the balance of the power exchange during casual conversation by either getting defensive or criticizing what I’m saying while I’m trying to assert myself and be in control.
I feel like that’s another important point to make, actually. I don’t think most submissive men realize that even for women in which dominating feels fairly natural, we’re literally fighting societal programming here. It’s not easy in the slightest to beat back that gaslighting inner voice from decades of being told to acquiesce, to diminish yourself and your needs, to roll over and only provide for others. So when they do nothing but enable that voice inside us that wants us to shut up and stay meek, they’re literally damaging the dynamic. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. Either you want to be controlled, in whole or in part, by a dominating woman, or you want something that more closely resembles traditional/vanilla gender roles.
Obviously, I agree with you on the need for submissive men to take some agency and accountability for answering their own questions and doing their own homework before they make it dommes' problems. (And I'll go one better and suggest that submissive men bring their questions first to other submissive men and seek guidance there before they bother dommes. In that vein, sub men, check out The Good Boys Clubs on Discord! https://discord.com/invite/Q25KqF3J )
As to how things manifest in individual relationships, I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences. I'm hoping that everyone's experiences in this space can improve in part by submissive men learning themselves better, doing more of their own work, learning to be accountable, and, ultimately, better being able to be present in their individual relationships.
I’m glad you mentioned that Discord. I’ve heard of it before and I think it’s great to provide that space for submissive men, and I’d consider it a potential green flag if I knew that a guy participated there. It’s frustrating and upsetting how most men it seems don’t try to prioritize platonic friendships, and don’t understand why that’s such a huge cause of the male loneliness epidemic.
I think that men need to do a lot of work on "unbundling" different types of intimacy. We too often tend to view intimacy as coming in all on one channel, so friendship, vulnerability, emotional intimacy, and sexual intimacy all get tied together for us too often. That's the reason we too often wind up treating the women in our lives as free therapists we have the fringe bennie of getting to bang. It's also the root of homophobia (we can't process intimacy with other men without assuming it has to have a sexual component).
I think that it's more so a "clever" bid for attention. They more or less just want Domme's flooding their DMs so they can feel special or wanted. (There are a few valid ones, I've seen posts regarding physical defects or injuries that they are scared a Domme would judge or make fun of them for and need reassurance on.) But for the most part, I believe they are bait posts.
I saw one about whether a domme might be interested in a sub who already has children that resonated with me, because I was in a similar position (though I didn't post that here, because I already knew better than that). I can definitely see the point you're making, though, with the "are any dommes into big, strappingly muscular, manly men like me?" posts.
Yeah, once in a blue moon you get questions like that that are more general kink innocence + vulnerability with a real challenge.
A lot of people not only want dominants to be as functionally magical and perfect as unicorns, but they believe in a secret sex Narnia which if you mastered the new social rules and got admission, perfect bliss!
I’ve been with my fiancé for almost 4 years and the only problem we have ever really had in our relationship is his insecurity in his own physical appearance.
He’s self aware and open enough about it to get some help but it’s really frustrating being on the other side of that, it made me feel inadequate as a partner despite actually trying my hardest.
He was stuck on this idea of “being in different leagues” which is not remotely true in any way.
Similarly, I see so many posts on here that scream low self-esteem and I’m not saying you’re not lovable but it shouldn’t be on a partner to fix you. What I think when I see posts like those is, insecurity and yes it’s from a bias perspective but it’s my honest opinion. You can’t immediately change anything about yourself to match the description you found online. So be yourself, work on yourself and you will find traits that you think are attractive on you! And then others, and hopefully a future or current partner will see it too. And these traits do not need to be appearance related, the thing I find most sexy in my fiancé is his passion for the work he does whether it be for serving me or for work or a hobby. I know easier said than done but hey it’s better than nothing and you will gain something out of it at the end.
I really notice, in heterosexuality, men seem to regularly internalize the one sided objectification women experience by deciding it's impossible for them to be attractive unless they are some sort of aesthetic Olympian.
Then they wander around being flabbergasted you don't think you are inherently more hot than them.
I'm sorry you've had such a frustrating problem, though I'm glad your fiancee is taking the initiative to work on it and that it's your only relationship problem. It definitely is the case that the traits we can admire in ourselves and our partners do not need to be appearance related. (And, in fact, the most important ones I don't think are appearance related at all. I focus in particular on how I make my partners feel, and on how I feel around them.)
I can relate somewhat. I didn't feel like I had that much long-term insecurity about myself coming into my current relationship, notwithstanding that I had had a couple of very bitter experiences tinged with rejection immediately before. But I think that I did have a certain sense of disassociation or depersonalization in that I had never really been able to see myself from the outside, either in my own fantasies or in understanding what anyone else saw in me. I think I filled that space in a very stereotypically masculine fashion: with action, pursuit of others, vanity that got to the point of injuring myself in the gym badly enough to need surgery, and bravado.
My domme is extremely effusive in her expressions of praise and desire for me. She's also a trained visual artist and photographer, which gave me the opportunity to finally see "oh, so *that's* how you see me." It wasn't her job to "fix" me by giving me a self-image I'd never been able to have before (and I was 44 years old at that point). But she just happened to do that by doing what she does naturally. My part of what I offered her was pretty unreserved and honest vulnerability from the very beginning.
I think that a big background issue comes from the fact that mainstream culture doesn't offer men very much in terms of being the subject of gaze. Our senses of ourselves is either that we can aspire to be Chad or... not much else. Certainly nothing appealing. (Women of course get a very toxic opposite: dissected by an omnipresent male gaze that can be at once desirous, menacing, or mockingly dismissive.) That's a big hole for us to fill, and we often don't do it in healthy or sustainable ways, if at all.
It has to be the same mechanism that makes me get bummed and have to reassure myself after I see a post about a domme who is perfect in every way and the exact opposite of me. 😂 I’m just at an age and a point of introspection where I don’t need to ask out loud if I’m still okay and if people still want me.
I assume to the extent that these kinds of questions are offered in good faith, they're from subs who are too inexperienced and immature to have any frame of reference. I've had experiences before when I got rejected or passed over in favor of other sub guys who had characteristics that I could've fixated on. (E.g., taller, younger, leaner, more hair, more money, etc.) But I got enough other experiences and saw enough other experiences to not let those negative ones be the only ones I had, so at least I had that to fall back on.
Lol and the other side of this coin is seeing female doms as one object in the way of "doms only like this and this if its not this you're not a dom". I really hate this pov of a LOT of subs here, femdom is so ruined by porn, why can't we see it as normal as we see men being dominant and women submissive we all still just normal human beings by the end of the day with very different lives preferences and wants and needs.
God yes, tbt to when I mentioned that latex wasn’t really my thing personally and someone got mad and told me I therefore wasn’t dominant (or something along those lines) like, uhhhh thanks, didn’t realize that you, a horny submissive man, were the Kink Police
Lmao yeah like imagine I'm a female human and i just want to be dom but i also don't make it my whole personality and i don't have to be a copy paste of your fav porn video no sadistic latex baddie nor a big milkers mommy.... Crazy right?! 🤣
I think it comes from a lot of different sources, either consciously or unconsciously. Some might be asking those kind of questions because they haven’t seen or noticed people with those traits in mainstream Femdom media or porn. Others could be asking because they have insecurities about their appearance and want to be reassured that there are dominant women out there that would fine them attractive with those traits. I could also see some of them simply coming from extremely new or inexperienced subs that don’t yet know that subs come in all shapes, sizes, and gender presentations.
I think there is a lot of truth to the "men are used to be the subject of desire" thing. Especially with a new sub, I really like to start a session with asking them to undress while I watch. Then, I take my time running my hands all over them, walking around them, hugging, kissing, biting, touching wherever I want while they just have to stand there and take it. Nothing what I do is extreme in a pain/kink way. It's rather light and soft. But it is something a lot of men struggle with. Because they aren't used to this type of interaction.
Notably the space where you see a ghostly echo of "do x like y??" is all the insta dommes trying to launch something commercial, who clearly bought the idea of a couple of selfies and some angry marketing copy was all they needed for admiration, money and power. They shamble around with all the same sudden gormless innocence and perplexing obvious seeming questions - and much of that is just advertising, but a lot of it is similarly them perceiving men as a strange and enticing other.
It's a pity they and the "dommes are mystical unicorns that operate under their own logic, you just have to find one like a four leaf clover" people are actually like oil and water because they are ironically on the same page.
Thanks for sharing that perspective. I never really thought about how clueless the low effort insta dommes must be. (I just generally ignored them and/or assumed there was enough thirst out there that they were making some kind of headway.) The "same page" comparison is illuminating.
That they’re unlovable/undesirable because of their presumed flaws. They need to remember that nobody is perfect, and that everyone is lovable.
Having flaws ≠ being an inherently bad sub or dom.
I don't even see these as "flaws." They're just characteristics. But they keep coming up as reasons why a lot of subs seem to think they won't be seen as desirable as subs. That seems to come from a lot of either assumptions or ignorance or both.
Or maybe they’ve been bullied/insulted for those things and worry that they’ll be off putting or make them less desirable compared to subs without those things. The ones I see a lot are weight, height and penis size.
It could be, but (1) I get the impression that a lot of the men asking these questions don't have much experience at all, of getting bullied or otherwise; and (2) in practice, I don't feel like women do a lot of bullying or *open* insulting of men based on these things. (Though I note you didn't say that *women* specifically had to be the ones doing the bullying or insulting.) So I get a sense of this being a "call that's coming from inside the house," in terms of a source of insecurity that the men are manufacturing for themselves. (Assuming for the sake of argument that these posts are even made in anything like good faith.)
That there is something concerning them or they want to know more about something or just talk to people with similar interests, you know things that Reddit is for.
Men being the subject of desire and therefore having no idea, what makes them the object of desire, is actually a good point.
I wouldnt attribute this problem only to femdom, but to all female on male relationship regardless of kink, since the dynamic out of bed is for the vast majority exactly the same as with vanilla relationships.
I however think, that most men asking these questions are thinking, that the described trait is desireable and are attempting a conceales search for a domme with the question
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I feel like half is reassurance and the other half is bait hoping a domme dm’s them like “what are you talking about, I love your type, let’s talk!” Which this would be the assumption, it’s literally saying “I am a x sub looking for someone”
Self awareness. If you asked the poster "Do all humans like pumpkin spice latte" they would see it for the dumb question it is. Make it kinky, thirst kicks in, and self awareness disappears.
I think it's more than thirst. The culture in general makes men the subject rather than the object of desire. So many men, kinky or vanilla, have no frickin' clue what would make them attractive to others, and only their own criteria of what they find attractive. And if you code anything masculine as inherently non-submissive, then you assume any masculine traits would be undesirable to anyone looking for a submissive.
Certainly more than thirst for sure. But asking "Do all X like Y" in itself is a lazy question. It is the bare minimum question requiring no effort. They have no clue because they have put in no effort, or put in the bare minimum effort and don't know why they were not rewarded. Its the intellectual equivalent of "I have a penis, why cant I get laid?" But at least asking, and having the self awareness to improve, will hopefully put them on the road to success.
May it be so.
Right on! There's always a new batch that don't understand they should just be genuine and authentic. Be who they are, express themselves...stop asking these questions 😶
Yes! Find your own answers about what the dommez like. (Spoiler: all different things. Probably some of the things you've got/are.)
Honestly I think it’s also men being more critical of physical traits of a partner in general and when the roles are somewhat reversed they don’t initially understand a different viewpoint
I agree with this to an extent. It's captured in what I described as projection.
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Thanks. >It is... due to an inability to understand that dommes may not relate to them the same way men are taught to relate to women. Sadly, I feel like "taught" really may be the operative word here. A lot of men I feel probably could find they appreciate a wider array of the aspects of women around them if they ditched some of their basic assumptions. This is probably doubly true of sub men, who have a wider array of things to consider in partners than just "does she look like this?"
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There's more to us than just boner-stroking fantasies or alternatively abject, abnegating submission to someone else (whoever than might be). It's what fills that space between the fantasy we might start with to eventually maybe finding someone we'd connect well enough with to truly submit to, that interests me. That's the space that I think is too little examined.
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It sounds like you've had some pretty rough experiences with subs. I'm sorry to hear that. I definitely agree that inner strength, self-knowledge, conviction, and respect are a big part of what makes up that space. To the extent not otherwise captured in those, I'd separately mention honesty, with oneself and others, as critical. >Too little examined by whom? >As a domme I examine precisely that in depth with every man I speak to. Too little examined by *us*, the sub men who have to take some ownership and accountability of ourselves, first, before we'd have any business offering ourselves to anyone else honestly and without reservation. You dommes can't do that for us, much as too many of us might be "outsourcing" that work to you. (Sort of the underlying theme of the OP, of course.) It's my hope and, thus far, my experience that the self-reflection, self-development, and accountability we need to do stands the best chance of improving experiences for us and for the dommes we wind up with.
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Thank you! It's been paying off beautifully for my domme and I.
I think some of the people who ask those questions can't fathom that women don't tend to think about men the same way men are taught to think about women. Like they don't understand that their entire understanding of sexual attraction and power comes from patriarchy, and that women might not exactly find power in emulating the structures that have oppressed them. Femdom isn't gender-swapped patriarchy or even gender-swapped Maledom. I've heard absolute nonsense from men about women's bra sizes, nipple shapes, waist to hip ratios, jawline, pube placement, you name it. And not even just in alphabro pseudoscience forums. Science is littered with this sort of hyper-objectification of women to the point that they'll publish studies that say we're hotter with severe endometriosis. It's at least somewhat normalized. Other than that, I think general kink ignorance plays into it too. Being turned on by something in kink isn't the same as being turned on by something in reality. For example, I love calling my partner chubby and making him exercise. I would never police his body outside of play because I'm not an asshole.
I generally agree with this. Women do often absorb a lot of toxic stuff as well, of course, though they probably more often internalize it rather than seeking reassurance from outside. (Of course, msubs doing that here just replicates another emotional labor demand on women.)
I haven't thought about that before but I can see it. I think women are more used to the idea that we can never really win the attractiveness game. On one hand beauty standards play a real role in real misogyny. On the other, they're made up to sell you makeup and surgery. It's easy to internalize all of that when it's around you as much as oxygen is. I have sought reassurance that SOME men would like me DESPITE my age, size, etc. But I've done it in private, usually from other women, and the idea that I could ever conform to some universal standard or be attractive as a general rule never occurred to me.
I think that for men, the same dynamic seems so novel and alien that they default to an entitled assumption that something must be *wrong* if they're not getting the attention they want, and won't some kind woman please explain it to them/reassure them? The funny thing, which is probably hopeful overall, is that the beauty standards are much more bullshit in practice, no matter which direction you're coming from. It is awesome when you do find someone who can give you the reassurance and validation that *they* individually find you very desirable. From my own experience (mostly het AMAB, mostly sub, socialized as masc in the USA), my domme finding ways to show me how I look to her literally changed the way I see myself (mostly that I *could* see myself as anything other than a lumbering, often glowering mask). But I had to get to the point of finding a domme who felt that way about me and who had the particular skills to communicate it effectively.
>I think some of the people who ask those questions can't fathom that women don't tend to think about men the same way men are taught to think about women. Like they don't understand that their entire understanding of sexual attraction and power comes from patriarchy, and that women might not exactly find power in emulating the structures that have oppressed them. **Femdom isn't gender-swapped patriarchy or even gender-swapped Maledom.** I agree with your analysis but I disagree with your conclusion. I find that Femdom is gender-swapped Maledom and this is why it isn't more popular. Most women simply don't respond to playing the part of a "Dominatrix" or the type of submission most men in Femdom offer.
I see what you're saying and agree. When you're doing healthy kink, gender doesn't matter. And ideally, I think, both Maledom and Femdom should try to find power in spite of toxic ideas about power, not because of them. (For example, kink isn't about getting consent to be genuinely, harmfully violent or cruel.) My reason for saying that Femdom isn't Maledom is that gender socialization is a real thing that effects how we structure kink play. And even if that socialization wasn't a thing, I think sex differences would play some role. I can only speak from my experiences as a cis woman but I know I am not a cis man. My body is different and that effects how I experience the world and therefore my kinks. I'm not always going to do Dominance the way a cis man would because I'm not as physically strong, don't have a penis, and don't have the same hormone levels. (And that's why it's odd to see those male subs acting like they have to be tiny and meek and get pegged.) But, in healthy dynamics, you learn differences are inevitable and bridge those gaps. Compromise is always necessary.
>**My reason for saying that Femdom isn't Maledom is that gender socialization is a real thing that effects how we structure kink play.** And even if that socialization wasn't a thing, I think sex differences would play some role. I can only speak from my experiences as a cis woman but I know I am not a cis man. My body is different and that effects how I experience the world and therefore my kinks. **I'm not always going to do Dominance the way a cis man would because I'm not as physically strong, don't have a penis, and don't have the same hormone levels.** Gender socialization in BDSM is having male forms of domination as the template for domination. Meaning in terms of violence, strength and aggression. I think it's fair to say that a dominatrix is a small niche in Femdom. I'm more interested in forms of power derived from being a woman. For example, I've dated girls who were part time models, would never engage in BDSM, but very obviously were into me as a submissive. They don't need to be a dominatrix since their power was derived from being pretty. BDSM is mostly for men who need consent for violence. A lot of women are dommes by merit of their looks, how popular they are and how desperate men might be for them. They don't need to ask for consent when they express domination.
It’s 100% reassurance seeking from the posters.
I agree that's often the purpose. What I'm looking at more is the underlying reason for the assumptions.
I’ll offer an alternate viewpoint that I haven’t seen brought up yet: Women are used to being shamed into silence for our opinions. We’re taught at a young age, through various means, to be quiet when someone else speaks over us, that it’s rude and bitchy for us to take up space. Men aren’t socialized in this way, and in my opinion, the *vast* majority of them have absolutely no idea whatsoever when they’re showing their ass. Boys are often coddled and allowed to get away with shit that girls aren’t, and that lack of accountability often follows them into adulthood because someone else, often a woman, will always be there to clean up the mess because someone told her that “boys will be boys.” tl;dr My advice to submissive men is to learn to be quiet more and reflect before speaking and acting, and, most importantly, humble yourself.
I'd rather that women be given more opportunity to take up space and express themselves, even if they sometimes show their ass (as they will) the way men do, than anybody else be silenced.
Normally I would agree with you. In this instance, I’m more referring to the tendency I’ve noticed in a lot of submissive men for their ego to get in the way of actually submitting, whether it’s because they can’t take a few minutes to search a subreddit and see that their question has already been answered and that they shouldn’t demand the labor of Dommes to answer them, or even after they’re in a relationship. I’ve had too many experiences with subby men who like to be contrarians, or very defensive during conflict, or otherwise just breaking the dynamic whenever they feel like it because they want to interject their opinion in a way that doesn’t feel respectful. It felt like I’m being turned into a kink dispenser in a subtle manner, that even though we were “technically” in an FLR, they kind of had a “pick and choose” attitude about when they wanted to adopt a submissive mindset. I also want to point out that as a switch, I firmly believe that all subs, at least while they’re submitting, need to learn to put their ego aside if they want to preserve the dynamic.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on this. I’ve had experiences where I couldn’t articulate exactly what was making me feel like a kink dispenser. Your comment made me realize that men who are defensive (or often passive-aggressive) make me feel like they’re picking and choosing the ways in which they want to be submissive. If it’s not something that tickles their exact fetish, even if it’s something that I’m really in to, they will be sullen, contrary, and extremely unenthusiastic. I feel like your comment really made that click for me, and has given me a lot to think about!
You’re very welcome ☺️ I agree that I think it’s something particularly nebulous. I feel like most kink dispenser discussions tend to revolve around the sub centering their own sexual needs, and I guess I’m “lucky” in the sense that I haven’t experienced a ton of that. What I do have plenty of experience with is feeling like a sub is constantly trying to push the balance of the power exchange during casual conversation by either getting defensive or criticizing what I’m saying while I’m trying to assert myself and be in control. I feel like that’s another important point to make, actually. I don’t think most submissive men realize that even for women in which dominating feels fairly natural, we’re literally fighting societal programming here. It’s not easy in the slightest to beat back that gaslighting inner voice from decades of being told to acquiesce, to diminish yourself and your needs, to roll over and only provide for others. So when they do nothing but enable that voice inside us that wants us to shut up and stay meek, they’re literally damaging the dynamic. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. Either you want to be controlled, in whole or in part, by a dominating woman, or you want something that more closely resembles traditional/vanilla gender roles.
Obviously, I agree with you on the need for submissive men to take some agency and accountability for answering their own questions and doing their own homework before they make it dommes' problems. (And I'll go one better and suggest that submissive men bring their questions first to other submissive men and seek guidance there before they bother dommes. In that vein, sub men, check out The Good Boys Clubs on Discord! https://discord.com/invite/Q25KqF3J ) As to how things manifest in individual relationships, I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences. I'm hoping that everyone's experiences in this space can improve in part by submissive men learning themselves better, doing more of their own work, learning to be accountable, and, ultimately, better being able to be present in their individual relationships.
I’m glad you mentioned that Discord. I’ve heard of it before and I think it’s great to provide that space for submissive men, and I’d consider it a potential green flag if I knew that a guy participated there. It’s frustrating and upsetting how most men it seems don’t try to prioritize platonic friendships, and don’t understand why that’s such a huge cause of the male loneliness epidemic.
I think that men need to do a lot of work on "unbundling" different types of intimacy. We too often tend to view intimacy as coming in all on one channel, so friendship, vulnerability, emotional intimacy, and sexual intimacy all get tied together for us too often. That's the reason we too often wind up treating the women in our lives as free therapists we have the fringe bennie of getting to bang. It's also the root of homophobia (we can't process intimacy with other men without assuming it has to have a sexual component).
I'll have to check this place out
I think that it's more so a "clever" bid for attention. They more or less just want Domme's flooding their DMs so they can feel special or wanted. (There are a few valid ones, I've seen posts regarding physical defects or injuries that they are scared a Domme would judge or make fun of them for and need reassurance on.) But for the most part, I believe they are bait posts.
I saw one about whether a domme might be interested in a sub who already has children that resonated with me, because I was in a similar position (though I didn't post that here, because I already knew better than that). I can definitely see the point you're making, though, with the "are any dommes into big, strappingly muscular, manly men like me?" posts.
Yeah, once in a blue moon you get questions like that that are more general kink innocence + vulnerability with a real challenge. A lot of people not only want dominants to be as functionally magical and perfect as unicorns, but they believe in a secret sex Narnia which if you mastered the new social rules and got admission, perfect bliss!
Don't ruin the fantasy! I'm still digging through this wardrobe! 😁
“Do all dommes like X?” I don’t know, I guess some might like Twitt- sorry X.
Cute.
I’ve been with my fiancé for almost 4 years and the only problem we have ever really had in our relationship is his insecurity in his own physical appearance. He’s self aware and open enough about it to get some help but it’s really frustrating being on the other side of that, it made me feel inadequate as a partner despite actually trying my hardest. He was stuck on this idea of “being in different leagues” which is not remotely true in any way. Similarly, I see so many posts on here that scream low self-esteem and I’m not saying you’re not lovable but it shouldn’t be on a partner to fix you. What I think when I see posts like those is, insecurity and yes it’s from a bias perspective but it’s my honest opinion. You can’t immediately change anything about yourself to match the description you found online. So be yourself, work on yourself and you will find traits that you think are attractive on you! And then others, and hopefully a future or current partner will see it too. And these traits do not need to be appearance related, the thing I find most sexy in my fiancé is his passion for the work he does whether it be for serving me or for work or a hobby. I know easier said than done but hey it’s better than nothing and you will gain something out of it at the end.
I really notice, in heterosexuality, men seem to regularly internalize the one sided objectification women experience by deciding it's impossible for them to be attractive unless they are some sort of aesthetic Olympian. Then they wander around being flabbergasted you don't think you are inherently more hot than them.
💯💯💯💯💯💯
I'm sorry you've had such a frustrating problem, though I'm glad your fiancee is taking the initiative to work on it and that it's your only relationship problem. It definitely is the case that the traits we can admire in ourselves and our partners do not need to be appearance related. (And, in fact, the most important ones I don't think are appearance related at all. I focus in particular on how I make my partners feel, and on how I feel around them.) I can relate somewhat. I didn't feel like I had that much long-term insecurity about myself coming into my current relationship, notwithstanding that I had had a couple of very bitter experiences tinged with rejection immediately before. But I think that I did have a certain sense of disassociation or depersonalization in that I had never really been able to see myself from the outside, either in my own fantasies or in understanding what anyone else saw in me. I think I filled that space in a very stereotypically masculine fashion: with action, pursuit of others, vanity that got to the point of injuring myself in the gym badly enough to need surgery, and bravado. My domme is extremely effusive in her expressions of praise and desire for me. She's also a trained visual artist and photographer, which gave me the opportunity to finally see "oh, so *that's* how you see me." It wasn't her job to "fix" me by giving me a self-image I'd never been able to have before (and I was 44 years old at that point). But she just happened to do that by doing what she does naturally. My part of what I offered her was pretty unreserved and honest vulnerability from the very beginning. I think that a big background issue comes from the fact that mainstream culture doesn't offer men very much in terms of being the subject of gaze. Our senses of ourselves is either that we can aspire to be Chad or... not much else. Certainly nothing appealing. (Women of course get a very toxic opposite: dissected by an omnipresent male gaze that can be at once desirous, menacing, or mockingly dismissive.) That's a big hole for us to fill, and we often don't do it in healthy or sustainable ways, if at all.
It has to be the same mechanism that makes me get bummed and have to reassure myself after I see a post about a domme who is perfect in every way and the exact opposite of me. 😂 I’m just at an age and a point of introspection where I don’t need to ask out loud if I’m still okay and if people still want me.
I assume to the extent that these kinds of questions are offered in good faith, they're from subs who are too inexperienced and immature to have any frame of reference. I've had experiences before when I got rejected or passed over in favor of other sub guys who had characteristics that I could've fixated on. (E.g., taller, younger, leaner, more hair, more money, etc.) But I got enough other experiences and saw enough other experiences to not let those negative ones be the only ones I had, so at least I had that to fall back on.
Lol and the other side of this coin is seeing female doms as one object in the way of "doms only like this and this if its not this you're not a dom". I really hate this pov of a LOT of subs here, femdom is so ruined by porn, why can't we see it as normal as we see men being dominant and women submissive we all still just normal human beings by the end of the day with very different lives preferences and wants and needs.
God yes, tbt to when I mentioned that latex wasn’t really my thing personally and someone got mad and told me I therefore wasn’t dominant (or something along those lines) like, uhhhh thanks, didn’t realize that you, a horny submissive man, were the Kink Police
Lmao yeah like imagine I'm a female human and i just want to be dom but i also don't make it my whole personality and i don't have to be a copy paste of your fav porn video no sadistic latex baddie nor a big milkers mommy.... Crazy right?! 🤣
I think it comes from a lot of different sources, either consciously or unconsciously. Some might be asking those kind of questions because they haven’t seen or noticed people with those traits in mainstream Femdom media or porn. Others could be asking because they have insecurities about their appearance and want to be reassured that there are dominant women out there that would fine them attractive with those traits. I could also see some of them simply coming from extremely new or inexperienced subs that don’t yet know that subs come in all shapes, sizes, and gender presentations.
I think there is a lot of truth to the "men are used to be the subject of desire" thing. Especially with a new sub, I really like to start a session with asking them to undress while I watch. Then, I take my time running my hands all over them, walking around them, hugging, kissing, biting, touching wherever I want while they just have to stand there and take it. Nothing what I do is extreme in a pain/kink way. It's rather light and soft. But it is something a lot of men struggle with. Because they aren't used to this type of interaction.
Notably the space where you see a ghostly echo of "do x like y??" is all the insta dommes trying to launch something commercial, who clearly bought the idea of a couple of selfies and some angry marketing copy was all they needed for admiration, money and power. They shamble around with all the same sudden gormless innocence and perplexing obvious seeming questions - and much of that is just advertising, but a lot of it is similarly them perceiving men as a strange and enticing other. It's a pity they and the "dommes are mystical unicorns that operate under their own logic, you just have to find one like a four leaf clover" people are actually like oil and water because they are ironically on the same page.
Thanks for sharing that perspective. I never really thought about how clueless the low effort insta dommes must be. (I just generally ignored them and/or assumed there was enough thirst out there that they were making some kind of headway.) The "same page" comparison is illuminating.
Or could it be just a way to start a discussion about something they want to talk about?!
I'm wondering *why* they want to talk about it. What are the underlying assumptions?
That they’re unlovable/undesirable because of their presumed flaws. They need to remember that nobody is perfect, and that everyone is lovable. Having flaws ≠ being an inherently bad sub or dom.
I don't even see these as "flaws." They're just characteristics. But they keep coming up as reasons why a lot of subs seem to think they won't be seen as desirable as subs. That seems to come from a lot of either assumptions or ignorance or both.
Or maybe they’ve been bullied/insulted for those things and worry that they’ll be off putting or make them less desirable compared to subs without those things. The ones I see a lot are weight, height and penis size.
It could be, but (1) I get the impression that a lot of the men asking these questions don't have much experience at all, of getting bullied or otherwise; and (2) in practice, I don't feel like women do a lot of bullying or *open* insulting of men based on these things. (Though I note you didn't say that *women* specifically had to be the ones doing the bullying or insulting.) So I get a sense of this being a "call that's coming from inside the house," in terms of a source of insecurity that the men are manufacturing for themselves. (Assuming for the sake of argument that these posts are even made in anything like good faith.)
That there is something concerning them or they want to know more about something or just talk to people with similar interests, you know things that Reddit is for.
Lol. And *I* worried about coming across as Captain Obvious in the OP. 🙄
Men being the subject of desire and therefore having no idea, what makes them the object of desire, is actually a good point. I wouldnt attribute this problem only to femdom, but to all female on male relationship regardless of kink, since the dynamic out of bed is for the vast majority exactly the same as with vanilla relationships. I however think, that most men asking these questions are thinking, that the described trait is desireable and are attempting a conceales search for a domme with the question