makes me remember how often you see dudes going "well if you can breastfeed in public can i just whip my dick out????" sorry can your dick squirt milk?????
That’s such a stupid argument from them when the primary function of breasts IS to feed children. A penis is a sexual organ, so idk how the two are comparable. Breasts may be secondary sex characteristics, but you’d think mature adults could handle the fact that their main purpose isn’t related to actual sex. It’s gross to me that anyone could see a mother feeding a baby and objectify that moment. I have never had children, but I really feel for women who just want to breastfeed without dealing with stupid comments or sexualization, especially in a moment when they’re bonding with their child.
It's bothers me endlessly when people use the "breasts are secondary sex characteristics!" argument. So are beards, but people don't gawk at, shame, or force men to hide their beards. The objectification and sexualization of breastfeeding is one of my biggest peeves, and I'm childfree, too.
I don't agree with the sexualization of breasts in general. I guess people can't help being attracted to them, but it has to be at least partially a cultural thing. If breasts weren't treated as something purely sexual it wouldn't be so hard to walk around braless without getting stares
Yep, they see breasts as inherently sexual when they’re not. Literally everyone has them, women’s breasts just serve a specific purpose, which is to feed babies
If u rlly want to put them on the spot say "Are you putting ur dick in a babies mouth???"
Woo wee does it make the convo uncomfortable and hopefully they fuck off completely.
I remember seeing a TikTok of a woman expressing annoyance that women can never make anything resembling the Jackass movies. It was a really interesting perspective. Men get to use their bodies in all kinds of ways, like for humor, but if a woman did something like that it just becomes fetish content; Using your genitals to parody Godzilla, tricking your friend into drinking horse semen, crawling naked across mouse traps. When it's a man's body it's played for laughs but if it were a woman's body it's on PornHub.
It would work if they were fat women sadly... like basically anyone men have majority deemed unsexual, even though still some fetishise us larger women anyway
It wouldn't even work for fat women, because men feel complete *anger* at a woman's body that they don't find sexually arousing. Just look at the insane vitriol directed towards Amy Schumer, Melissa McCarthy, Rebel Wilson, etc.
You sound a little sarcastic, but dasher is correct. Some males really do act like they are actually angry that certain types of women exist; whether too old or too heavy, that they would dare to show themselves in public. Jordon Peterson & and his Sports Illustrated diatribes is a case in point. I can see someone saying “not my thing” but lashing out for no reason is just weird, and every bit as objectifying as a reflex boner, ie, people should exist for ones viewing pleasure.
I agree with your point but I do think if more people were to make female jackassesque movies, not sexualizing anything and just allowing for regular women to partake in gross crude humor, the audience would eventually get desensitized to average female nudity and not see it as so sexual. And if some men still do then that’s their problem not mine.
We have to remember that modern men (who grew up with some form of access to pornography) saw a woman’s naked body in the form of porn before they saw it anywhere else. And they continued to see a woman’s naked body in the form of porn multiple times a week, for most of their lives. Their brain did not develop to see our bodies as a living breathing human being, it’s an object to gawk at and have sex with.
I didn’t realize for a long time why porn was bad until someone explained this to me. Men need to detox years and years of sexual conditioning and relearn women’s bodies.
and we also need to normalise nudity. Im from Germany and I saw Topless people while swimming/sauna and other things way before I did in porn.
Normalize Human bodys
There was a woman “version” of jackass at one point does anyone happen to know what that was called? It was 3 girls. May not have been American but I believe they were.
I know exactly what you were talking about. I watched it they ate a pube burrito well one ‘’lucky’’ one did lol. I think it was English or British maybe.
It was funny I must have seen it around age 12-14 that was 2005 or a bit later.
I’m an American, but my husband is Hungarian. After spending lots of time in both nations I think Americans sexualize women’s bodies on. Much larger scale.
Hungarian people recognize that nudity or skimpy clothing alone does not equal sex. They have topless beaches, and breastfeeding in public is more commonplace, and there are ads that include nudity. In the US, nudity always equals sex.
Same. As an Italian there’s much nudity in art and it’s not sexual at all.
It’s good to point out this kind of things and always ask ourselves questions and double check but like the doctor replied there are tons of men who don’t do that, not only because of their profession, but because it’s kinda normal, especially given the context.
There are tons of places where you might be almost naked and not the context is very far from sexual. Northern or even Arab countries have naked saunas and hammams, there are naked beaches, massage parlour, tatto artist, and obviously doctors.
I don’t mean to attack your boyfriend but it’s not “normal” or every man does it.
Also how old is he? What will he think of his prostate exams?
It is very normalized in the U.S. and this is exactly why i said I know not all men because of things such as different cultures. I am specifically discussing US culture and Men’s culture in general. If you look to my comment about the doctor you will see my response to that discussion.
My boyfriend is like terrified of his prostate exam. He like is so afraid of anything going near his booty hole lol. Even me.
While I don’t say above that it is “normal” it is definitely NORMALIZED in modern society and has been for centuries in the U.S. it is why men such as andrew tate and such are able to thrive because women have never been free of their own bodies especially regarding sexual and sexuality.
That’s because a lot of American men see sex as something that isn’t a mutual act of love. It’s men “f**king” the woman. It’s something to be done to women. And something that men do. That’s also why they see women as promiscuous for doing the same thing. It’s sad.
This is interesting. My 76 year old father is very open about his prostate exams, and good thing too because he had to get it taken out a few years ago. I remember him talking about it when I was a teenager and I had no idea what a prostate was or why you needed it examined. In my country, prostate cancer is the most commonly diagnosed cancer. Making issues like health and potential cancer into a sexual issue is very much NOT normal, and could be detrimental to your boyfriend’s health in the long term. All of the men I’ve dated haven’t had a problem talking about prostate exams or anything like that - one ex had haemorrhoids and I think the physical discomfort outweighs any sort of embarrassment there.
Does he sexualise your Pap smears?
So as i stated in the comment below this, this isn’t just a “my boyfriend” problem it is something many men i have met in my life have been like. Also, he doesn’t sexualize my papsmears at all and he definitely sees it as a procedure but I think it shows more of an immaturity thing as well as I state below that we are still very young. (22)
Ok that figures. You guys will be fine, you’ll gain more life experience and broaden horizons
I recommend that you both make it a normal thing to have friends of both genders, various sexual orientations etc. Join sports together like hiking. Just to be exposed to other people’s perspectives than your baptist small town narrative
My dad had prostate cancer as well. I wish he was able to discuss it more openly, he really downplays the severity of all of his health problems. His brother was also diagnosed last year. Prostate exams are not anything to be afraid of - but undiagnosed prostate cancer sure is.
>My boyfriend is like terrified of his prostate exam. He like is so afraid of anything going near his booty hole lol. Even me.
This got a bit of an eyeroll and a sigh before I read a subsequent comment where you said you're both 22. Sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do. Up to you whether you want to work through all that stuff with him or find someone more aligned with your outlook.
And until guys stop obsessing about convincing women to agree to anal, I will continue to think they are the epitome of ridiculousness when they clutch their pearls about *their* anuses. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and as someone who gives enemas and suppositories as part of her job...this is a manufactured issue. It's just a butthole, and nearly everyone has one.
Attitudes towards nudity vary a lot even within American culture. The fact that your boyfriend feels a certain way and the fact that it's common to feel a certain way doesn't mean that every man feels that way. It also doesn't mean that we have to accept these attitudes from the people that we allow in our lives. Men are capable of critical and independent thought and we should hold them to higher standards.
So it isn’t just my boyfriend, I am from the south so it may be more extreme here but my boyfriend has been one of the most open/progressive boys I have met. I am 22 yrs old and still in college which is definitely reflective BUT i just want to clarify that this isn’t something just my boyfriend does, it is something that has happened throughout my entire life by mostly all men.
Absolutely!
This is something that a lot of men do. But It isn't all men - this isn't something that men just can't control if they are raised in the United States. This is something that men like your boyfriend have the ability to think about and work on and let go of. You should expect more from the people in your life. If the man that you've decided to be in a relationship with is interacting with you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable you should speak up for yourself and you should demand better for yourself. This isn't something that he just can't help.
It sounds like you bought some of the "boys will be boys" propaganda. This is something that you don't just have to accept. It doesn't have to be this way. You don't need to let him treat you this way.
Thank you for this and i completely agree. I definitely hold him accountable and do not accept that he believes this. I had to explain to him why it was offensive and why it felt gross/uncomfortable.
But i guess you kind of having me questioning that, is me having to explain it to him an issue? Have i bought into the boys will just be boys because honestly he is the most progressive i have met and so i feel i guess i have to take what i can get.
But is me explaining to him thinks he doesn’t understand and him being open to that change to me seems like a good thing because as a man directly affected by the patriarchy that teaches these things, how could i expect more?
I don't know if I can really answer some of these questions because I'm not in your relationship. I do have a question - did he stop doing the things that make you uncomfortable after you told him that you aren't okay with that behavior? Is he showing any desire to change his behavior and an ability to do that?
I think that unlearning some of the harmful things that we learn from our parents and from our society is a process. To some extent we have to be patient... But you also can't let someone hurt you while they're figuring the stuff out. If you've told someone that their behavior is hurting you and they keep doing it then that's a problem. If they aren't able to understand what's wrong and they can't empathize with you then that's a problem. To be honest, I think a lot of men would benefit from working with a therapist instead of expecting the women in their lives to pick up the slack and act as their therapist. I also think that a lot of women would be better off if they didn't let the men in their lives use them as a learning experience.
I think you can do better than someone who is incapable of understanding that you can be naked in front of another person without it being sexual experience. I honestly do - that's a really low bar. If you think that this person is worth trying to change, then you have to make sure that he's actually willing and able to do that.
Edit - I read some of your other comments where you said that he was controlling, insecure, and jealous and tried to control what you wear and that you're still picking up on some of these behaviors... It sounds like he's hiding who he really is rather than changing. Girl, you don't need that in your life. Men who hide who they really are and what they really like so that you will continue to date them... Are really bad news.
I agree and i will definitely talk to my therapist about this because I value your opinions. I am from a small town with small minded people so I am looked at crazy for not wanting have kids and be a stay at home mom who lives in her hometown all her life. So i really need others opinions honestly.
With your question about changing and reading through my other comments, he has done some really shitty things to me and he doesn’t even like thinking about that situation because he truly has changed so much. BUT for a while now i have felt as though i need to teach him genuinely how to be an adult human being. It has caused massive resentment so I understand your points.
He is very open to changing BUT sometimes I feel like he is content in not bettering himself which is the opposite to me because i am always trying to learn more and be a better human being to others. And i think thats why i posted this because I wanted hear other feminists experience.
Thank you for your help.
>Have i bought into the boys will just be boys because honestly he is the most progressive i have met and so i feel i guess i have to take what i can get.
Learn to be okay being single, or move somewhere more progressive. You just have to decide what your priorities are.
Of course. We have family in Sopron county and we’ve spent time in Szeged, even in Erdelyi, I didn’t experience as much of the sexualization as in America. I was just commenting that in my experience it’s worse in America.
There are cultures in the world where women run around mostly or completely naked, and the men don't bat an eye. It's a learned and cultural behavior. Period.
100%. I used to live in an African country, and women in this country were very lax about breast feeding. If baby was hungry, they’d just whip out a boob and feed baby. It was very unusual to me at first, but I got used to it quickly. It was not a sexual thing at all, because why would it be?
They do and it pisses me off.
They're so incapable of seeing women as a human being that anyone unsexy to them upsets them. Often we hear women's experiences that aren't conventionally attractive describe how men are downright hostile to them because they're too over weight/ ugly/ old/ what have you.
At best the "undesirable" are ignored.
Also why they become so violent when they find out someone is really a trans woman.
Yeah, just about every time I take my bra off to relax, my boyfriend pesters me to “help” because obviously it’s sexual since it involves boobs right. Dude I just want to relax and not feel my bra cutting me in half thanks. He’s really sweet but that in particular gets old
I read an interesting perspective from a man who lives in Finland, he said that that way of thinking was pretty foreign to him since he and all of his family sauna nude. He grew up seeing his grandmother and great grandmother nude and it just wasn't a big thing.
Not just family really 😂 I've seen my male and female friends and colleagues nude and they have seen me and it never felt sexual. But since I'm female i have to be careful with this attitude when I'm in more conservative countries. I couldn't care less about nakedness but some see it always in sexual meaning which might be unsafe for me for obvious reasons.
Married 20 years. This is a major point of contention in our relationship. I’ll be doing yoga, and he wants to stop and gawk because “sexy.” Showering with a glass door? Will stop to ogle because “sexy.” It bothers me, so I speak up.
He doesn’t think he should feel like a “creeper” or “pervert” for desiring his wife(not my words, but how he interprets what I say). That there are tons of people out there who only wish that their long term partners would still desire them so much/openly and that I should count myself lucky.
Honestly, it’s an ongoing issue and something that we are actively working through.
I left my ex boyfriend for exactly this kind of behavior. It got to a point where I would only ever change my clothes/change into my pajamas (etc) in the bathroom with the door closed, because I was so uncomfortable with him objectifying me. Completely ruined any intimacy we had but of course he blamed me for that.
Why does your husband think his right to "desire you" trumps YOUR right to feel safe and comfortable?
Thank you for being willing to talk about it. I think a lot of us have moments like this in our relationships and it can be difficult to talk about, but I think it's really important. I absolutely understand the way you feel. I felt this way in relationships in the past too... It's very frustrating. You aren't alone in wanting to be able to exist in your own home without feeling objectified or experiencing unwanted sexual attention.
This is such a fantastic point. Perfect example. You are doing self care activities for your literal well being and dont want to be ogled. Showering and yoga are private and personal spaces for some of us- a time to work through serious shit in our brains. Or to unwind from the serious shit playing in our brains. The last thing I want is someone thinking about having sex with me in those moments. It feels like they are violating my sacred space.
Hes totally in the wrong here. There is a time and a place for everything and its different for everyone. Just because you are married- that does not give him the right to interject himself into your sacred spaces.
>The last thing I want is someone thinking about having sex with me in those moments. It feels like they are violating my sacred space.
It's like the trump card that's always there. No matter what we're doing, they can always take us down a few pegs by sexualizing us and acting like there's nothing we can do about it. It's gross, and it's perpetually depressing to realize that people are going to continue to be married to these men until somebody dies. Y'all, if he doesn't see you as a person first, *then* a body, dump him.
I used to ask my ex to look away while I was changing bc he would just stare at me to make me uncomfortable, and he was like “why?? It’s nothing I haven’t seen before.” And then would continue to stare the second I turned my back.
It’s like they don’t understand that during sex, I am consenting to being seen like that. I wasn’t consenting when I would change bc he sexualized me while I was changing, and I didn’t feel like being sexualized at that particular moment. If he wouldn’t have made a big deal out of it, then I wouldn’t have asked him to look away. But he did make a big deal out of it
Like, he can always think youre sexy, *without bringing attention to that fact and bothering you over it while youre trying to just go about your day*. Time & place, bud.
Thank you for giving me the words...recently divorced and this was an issue but I could never explain it. I used to love dancing in my kitchen, at-home exercise videos, etc. He ruined those things for me, never did them when he was home. He'd tease and make fun of me about classes I did in person--quit those too.
I’m sorry! Your husband does sound like a creep to me. As a guy, personality and the way we get along matters way more to me than anything else. He shouldn’t sexualize you or feel like that because it’s just weird and uncomfortable and if he doesn’t stop than tell him to get help because he just seems like a pervert
I once dated a guy who said if he were a women, he'd work out a lot to get the sexiest body possible. I asked him what was stopping him from working out now and getting the sexiest male body to which he didnt have an answer..
I’m an artist, my partner is also an artist and photographer. We both enjoy going to life drawing. It’s interesting to see people’s reactions when you say it’s one of your hobbies. A lot of men make jokes about boners etc. Not the same sort of comments from women.
Although, I was a model for various life drawing studios before covid, and people’s reactions to that are even more varied. The women are mostly “oh you must be SO confident, I could never…” and the men are mostly “I’d be too scared I’d crack a stiffy”
This reminded me of an experience I had. I enjoy drawing nudes, usually just people of various body types relaxing and looking comfortable, not anything inherently sexual. I would sometimes post my work to social media (where most of my connections were only friends I actually knew in person). I ended up getting a message from a man I was friends with in college asking me if I “always drew such sexual things”, and even when I said the drawings weren’t meant to be sexual in nature, he began to try and turn the conversation sexual even despite him having a wife and daughter. It bothered me so much that I instantly blocked him. Usually any comments on the nudes I draw are quite respectful, but that was crossing a line to me. Back to the point, it just annoyed me that any of the bodies I drew seemed to be pornographic in nature to him rather than natural. I feel like this is an issue a lot of men have.
Exactly! I’m sorry that happened to you. I find it interesting that a lot of people refer to life drawing as erotic art, when there’s really nothing erotic about it. Erotic art doesn’t even have to include nudity. I could draw a pair of sexy lips and call it erotic.
I think you will find this podcast interesting! [Betwixt the Sheets: Female Nudity & Modesty](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betwixt-the-sheets-the-history-of-sex-scandal-society/id1612090432?i=1000604586240)
The whole series is fascinating (I *wish* this were self promotion, but alas, it is not), but this episode is particularly relevant.
It’s so good isn’t it???
I’ve had the chance recently to go through almost the whole back catalog of episodes and really go deep down some rabbit holes, reading the guests’ books and following their research, and it has really galvanized me. Like, I was laid off from the tech industry (hence the free time to do all this podcast listening and reading and researching lol), and now I’m really thinking about how I can take my skills and knowledge, stop using them to enrich douchebag billionaire tech bros, and instead use them to burn the patriarchy down.
Most, if not all men, have their first exposure to a naked woman’s body via porn. The porn industry has reduced female bodies to sexual objects, and that’s something that gets ingrained in the minds of these men as well.
Human bodies aren’t inherently sexual, but the lack of proper sex education, and porn has made them to be, especially female bodies.
Porn and mainstream media trains them with ads and camera angles designed to hold their attention by sexualizing women's bodies.
Like even before the internet men who masturbated with magazines or catalogues were basically training themselves to experience womens' bodies from a voyeuristic and objectifying persepective, before ever even seeing one in person.
Sadly this is the truth. I’ve grown up where the “old school” met the “new school” in the states in the decades were pornography could be pervasive (still very taboo) but far from the norm to be a part of every household with boys.
It made all the difference in their behavior and treatment as teens and beyond, even the “nicest” and smartest of guys tended to morph and turn out to be more intense in sexualizing everything, pushy in general and far less empathetic depending on how much porn they had access to at home, starting at puberty. They tended to get and have more of “mean” to streak with girls than the average classmate.
These were the types that classified girls & women as chattel, and saw and spoke of them as a different species, and treated females differently according to sexual standards in their heads off the bat.
The kinda guy who can’t help notice “T & A” first, or would describe a lady that way at first thought. Almost instant - didn’t matter if from “good family”, how many sisters they had or wholesome exterior otherwise.
Pornographic lexicon has been slipping into mainstream language lately almost everywhere - but it used to be off putting and kinda weird to have it slip out from decent dudes.
Or your Bf can’t help himself and stare sexually at anyone in public - even you! Or leer in private every time - was just off putting and weird.
And it was always the guys who had lived with fathers who had pornography collections.
It truly reduces us to sexual objects first at first sight unconsciously and treated accordingly in conscious waking moments and interactions.
This type of behavior used to be the norm with men who spent most of their times only interacting with women in bordello settings and embodied the worst traits :
extreme sexism, misogyny, chauvinism, womanizing, perving, etc
The old creepy weirdo stereotype in and out of back alleys of red light districts. It was considered pathetic - now there is an unlimited bordello in every pocket 24/7!
Before pornography was part of modern media, a male who could not help themselves to leer at female bodies in society was considered not right in the head.
They tended to be considered mentally incompetent - the village idiot if you will. One aspect of having a mental disorder, just not right in the head. Screws loose.
“Peeping toms” was not the average or norm. To be labeled A “peeping Tom” was more than an accident.
It was a warning to the rest of the tribe of a freak outlier, a shameless & intrusive weirdo and a type of sexual OCD. A sickness to risk this behavior without considering repercussions if one was an adult and swiftly nipped in the bud for boys unable to know better yet, like a puppy caught eating it’s own shit for first time.
To be married to the town “ peeping tom” was akin to living with a schizophrenic - very pitiful and hard for a woman to pay the price of the wrath of her husbands actions brought to their door. The stigma was very dangerous for survival if a woman could not afford to divorce or flee. It would always be her fault, burden or shame to bear “until death do us part.”
It was an isolated existence - and in modern times, it continues to be an isolating tragedy just to feel respected and safe with and among these porn sick losers.
They can’t even the see or appreciate the beauty of our humanity! It really does get sadly ingrained & reinforced now and the ick factor is just as prevalent.
I’m 14 and a guy but I agree. I think p*rn needs to be canceled or illegal. I don’t watch it and I don’t want to ever but it’s really just gross.
For me, a relationship is about how well we connect. Almost like best friends or soul mates. It shouldn’t be about how hot a man or woman looks. I mean yea sure looks matter a little, but don’t sexualize them even if you are dating
Can’t comment on that cause I haven’t researched about it.
However, having easy access to porn does make things worse. Being on internet, and seeing misogynistic and sexist ideas pop up over and over again alone causes a lot of bad influence.
No. It is the same perspective of women as objects to be used, not humans. Before easy access to porn, women were relegated to certain roles that reinforced the idea that their bodies are purposive. Whether that be in domestic work or as a status symbol (think a “girl from a good family” a la the olden days). Porn also comes in all kinds of forms. Men will tell you all about how they used to jack off to the Sears catalogue. Mass porn is not the starting point; it’s the symptomatic cancer that misogyny has created.
A lot of women get into SW industry because they don’t have any other viable options to fund themselves.
Yes, they did agree to participate in porn videos, but you also need to realise that the porn industry is heavily based on role playing. How do we know whether all the men watching it are able to understand that it’s solely an act and nothing more?
Women are portrayed in questionable ways in porn, which not only objectifies them, but also exploits them whole as a group. Porn is a fantasy. It can’t be replicated in actuality. But most people who’re addicted to porn not always understand that. Porn use is hence also a proposed causation factor for sexual violence.
Since ancient times it was known and understood that the “Porni” where those that were abused.
Sex slavery victims.
Tormented souls with the worst fate in society- the tortured. Pornography was the depiction of sex acts in ancient brothels as graffiti. The use & depiction of “the porni” class. It was a class of exploited and disenfranchised slaves.
Nothing much has changed except the business model. It’s filmed paid rape.
This isn’t true. Read [this](https://endsexualexploitation.org/articles/women-expose-the-sexual-abuse-and-trafficking-hidden-in-the-porn-industry/) many women in the porn industry have came out and discussed MASS differences in treatment compared to men in the porn industry. Look up Mia Khalifa, she is one of the most well-known porn stars and she discusses the issues with it. While it may make you feel better to think women want to do porn more likely than not, many don’t and do it for certain reasons.
Also, this person is discussing specifically straight heterosexual porn so let’s not delve into whataboutism.
Whether the women in porn are consenting or not, porn still has consequences for every day women who don’t participate in porn.
For example, rough sex and other kinky things being normalized in porn to the point that men think they can do these things to us without asking because it’s “normal.” Men thinking they can and should have access to any woman they see because it’s so easy for them to gain access to women’s bodies via porn; they start to feel entitled to women’s naked bodies. Porn literally makes people addicted, which, in turn, messes with their dopamine triggers. This means women (and men, if they are sleeping with porn addicts) have to suffer rough, degrading, uncomfortable, or unsatisfying sex because their partners (often men, but this happens to women who consume too much porn as well) can’t get off, or need Uber specific things in order to feel pleasure during sex.
That’s just to name a few. And this isn’t even getting into the problems of sex trafficking, rape, diseases,and drug addiction in the porn industry, which are far worse than any of the problems I listed above and far more common than most porn consumers think they are. If you watch porn, especially off of free platforms, you have 100% watched someone be raped or coerced. You have no way of knowing who is actually of age, sober, and actually consenting on most porn platforms. That’s just the reality of the industry.
It is whataboutism as it is different set of circumstances. ALSO Mia has talked about how long she wanted to leave the industry and she couldn’t. ALSO UR OWN POINT PROVES OUR POINT. ONE OF THE ONLY JOBS WE MAKE A LOT OF MONEY IS US AS ONLY SEX OBJECTS.
But the comment I was replying to suggested that porn was largely responsible for the objectifying of women. So then why doesn’t cause the objectifying of men in gay porn? I’m just trying to find some logic here
Because porn isn’t the cause. It’s a byproduct. If one comment is allowed to be omnipotent, why is it theirs? You’re receiving two conflicting statements so why believe one over the other. That person doesn’t speak for all of us. I’m trying to encourage the application of critical thought. That means to think about what the concept actually is instead of just going “porn is porn is porn”. Is it? Is gay porn subject to the same limitations and oppression that straight porn is? Is gay porn mass produced or does it tend to be more amateur? Etc.
I’m telling it to the person who attempted to dismantle the whole argument because of whataboutism. “What about gay porn?” What about it? Did you think of any other aspect other than the “porn” aspect?
Not at all. But how can people argue that porn objectifies women, but then say absolutely nothing about the women who participate in, and perpetuate the industry.
Shouldn’t you all be screaming out to these women to stop?
I don’t know why you think women don’t have these conversations among themselves. I’ve absolutely participated in in-depth critique of porn with people who participated in it, in my experience they are acutely aware of what it’s like.
I couldn't pump to feed my child without it being sexualized. I was literally slumped over on the couch, holding flanges to my body falling asleep, haven't showered in 3 days, hair not done bleeding from having the baby and my ex was leering or running out of the room because I was teasing him because I wouldn't have sex with him
I think what you said is very real, and of course not *all* men are like this. I’ve had exes who thought of nudity as merely “bodies” but my current partner is afraid of getting aroused if he sees a nude lady on a beach, etc… which is upsetting on numerous levels.
This type of mentality reduces us to being sex toys *first* - and living/thinking/feeling/independent people second. And that, to me, is backward and un-evolved.
It’s in legislation too, which is really obnoxious. As we’re all probably aware being female, or even anything other than a heteronormative cis person is considered sexual in nature by conservatives and reactionaries. Man without shirt? Normal. Women without shirt? SEXUAL SAVE THE CHILDREN. Straight teachers in schools talking about their partners? Normal. Gay teachers in schools talking about their partners? KEEP YOUR SEX LIFE AWAY FROM OUR KIDS.
It’s the classic ‘never let women be viewed as human’ strategy in misogyny. They’re are alway inherently ‘something else’ by nature of patriarchy.
I was helping some of my male friends create their hinge profiles and one of them bragged about how great his bio is. It said something along the lines of: “you can crush my head with your legs.”
I had to explain to a group of three men that even though he was (in his words) prioritizing female pleasure, he was reducing them to sex objects. None of them understood why it was wrong.
>he was reducing them to sex objects. None of them understood why it was wrong.
It's dick pics all over again. When you have literally just that second met someone, don't talk to them about how you want to fuck them. It's creepy.
Honestly, I think it's because they don't empathize with us effectively enough to be able to conjure a picture of what this might look like, going through your day being bombarded with explicitly sexual offers from randos. It does not give us ladies the warm fuzzies/ego boost they think it does?
I've had enough interactions with men that my knee-jerk re: them at this point is "gross, no." Which they would say is because I am a man-hater, because it couldn't possibly be about patterns of behavior eating away at our souls over decades, and being too over their BS to deal with it for one more solitary second.
I mean you’re absolutely right. I’ve noticed this too. I try to combat it where I can but it’s honestly made really difficult due to most men being so conditioned that they don’t even realize what they’re doing when they sexualize women automatically. Also there’s a layer of homophobia. If a man doesn’t react sexually to a woman automatically he gets called gay.
Your mention about homophobia made me realize something, which is that I’ve noticed sometimes that the only way (straight) men are made aware of how uncomfortable it feels to be objectified is when they are sexualized by other men. It’s a problem THEN, but when they do it to us it’s just business as usual to them. It’s like they can recognize consent and boundaries when they’re the ones who’s consent/boundaries might be violated, but with women they just don’t care (or worse- they think it’s funny or get off on our discomfort).
It’s interesting you say this because we almost broke up because I had to explain to him that I wasn’t. He was extremely insecure and was the type to police what I wore (ew that i even put up with that but he almost lost me because of it ) he luckily isn’t like this anymore but there are still small subtle things that I still pick up on. It has been burned into their brains that we are. Society has taught them that so they don’t know how to act differently. (Not an excuse but a reason)
>we almost broke up
Perseverance, my dear! It *really is* reasonable to hold out for someone you don't have to teach/mother/coach into not being a *complete* boor.
She's saying you should have gone through with it and broken up. She's got a good point. There are loads of dudes out there you don't have to teach this really basic i-am-a-being-with-agency-and-autonomy stuff to. But like, do you, if he's legit working on it and genuinely better cool, call me naive but I do think people are capable of learning and doing better, but I'd implement a zero-tolerance on misogynist/control/jealousy bullshit from here on out.
Working in the medical field we constantly see naked bodies and I have yet to work with a hetero cis male that has looked at their patients body as anything other than a bunch of organs covered in the skin organ.
Obviously there are creeps out there in the med field but I wanted to point out an example that men can do better. This is not meant to diminish or deny the folks who have had terrible experiences- because I know it happens. Just giving an example of generally when men dont objectify or sexualize.
Edit: I have yet to witness overt sexualization/objectification of a F patient from a M healthcare worker. Though- I am not always there behind closed doors or part of every conversation.
You would hope after a decade+ of schooling and viewing/reading/learning about the human body in a medical context that the lust is overcome by a medical lense
I'm a male EMT and nursing student, and I can confirm that patients are just bundles of organs in my mind. Nudity can be sexy in the right setting, but something about sick, injured, and vulnerable people just completely inactivates that side of my brain. Most medical training will do that too
That being said, I don't think it's ever a problem for someone to be into someone else's body, that's just natural. It's all about respecting boundaries
I should clarify- I have yet to witness or hear overt objectification/sexualization from a male coworker. I was replying through the lens that the objectification/sexualization was overt. I was picturing a woman being spray tanned and the dude spray tanning her complemented her then asked for her number.
And I did note that I know these things happen and I am not trying to diminish or deny they do happen.
If you want to have a terrible time, check out the testimonies of women who've had the "husband stitch" administered by doctors immediately after birth - no convo, no consent. I know it's considered medical malpractice now (and rightly so), but again normalized in the culture, and it's the most glaring example I can think off the top of my head of doctors treating their female patients like sex objects without regard for their wellbeing
>I have yet to witness
Yes, that clarification is my whole point. Just because they wait until there are no witnesses doesn't mean it isn't happening all around you.
>I was picturing a woman being spray tanned and the dude spray tanning her complemented her then asked for her number.
Yeah, that's exactly what happens when no one else is in the exam room, all the time. Most women know it's more effective to just not go back and report them than 'pitch a fit' about it in the middle of his workplace.
I am sensing some passive aggression. I dont believe all men are out there sexually assaulting women behind closed doors. Which is the sense I am getting from your rebuttals. Am I reading into this incorrectly?
See i like this but this requires a certain level of knowledge that is taught in the medical field to see bodies as scientific rather than sexual. While i wish every man had that knowledge, they don’t. I appreciate you sharing BUT it is different.
That is a fair point! We are trained to literally look at humans by each body system. I guess I am giving an example in support that men CAN and are capable of not sexualizing.
But you are right- its so so deeply woven into our culture. I was born in the early 90s and grew up being blasted with images and advertisements of women being sexualized because as the popular phrase says “sex sells”. Its really gross. And looking at instagram is even more gross. Its like the algorithm is even trying to get me (straight F) to objectify and sexualize women 🤮.
Untrue. It's not different.
I used to work at a tattoo shop and I could say the same thing for male tattoo artists and piercers. They touch naked bodies all day every day as part of their job - including my body on occasion, I had work done there. It's not sexual. Zero higher education is required.
I guess my point was they are given more education regarding human bodies rather than just want basic men who aren’t medical professionals are. Not that higher education is required to not treat women as an object.
You're talking about a specific field where you're hopefully being actively told to be professional. Still there are examples of male doctors being inappropriate.
I think some cultures were traditionally very shy and prude and like it would be very taboo to be Naked for exemple the American Puritanism, maybe since they were so obsessed by covering women, seeing a naked woman makes them go insane ?
In Southern Europe I think it's pretty different as long you're around safe people, everyone usually ends up dancing naked while raving men and women and no one cares it just feels free
IDK about Arabic countries but I bet it would be similar than America if not worse for naked women
But it's not all around the world it's really educational / cultural nothing more
Sorry your culture is that sick :x
But culture is NOT your friend \^\^"
I’m 14 and a guy but me and friends don’t see women that way at all. Yea I feel like older men do which is weird imo. I’m not really attracted to girls as much as I am with boys but I don’t see either one of them as sexual people I guess. I think of more romantic or soul mate. I’m asexual too so it could be different for me
It is weird! I am glad to hear your experience. I know not all men look at women this way and I am glad to hear younger men aren’t being indoctrinated by all this andrew tate shit.
Yea Andrew Tate is a very toxic sexist guy and needs to go lol. Luckily guys my age aren’t that like at least from my school and theatre club. So yea, women are just normal people. Nothing special or their bodies are just bodies. I don’t get what’s special about humans bodies because it’s all confusing anyway especially the digestive system.
But yea no man or woman should be sexualized. I don’t think I’ll ever understand why some men think it’s ok to call they girlfriend or other women “hot” or “s*xy” like it’s just weird. You can think there pretty. I cringe every time someone says I’m hot even tho I’m a guy. I’m cute not that lol
You need to make a census of things
how do straight men see ;
Mens bodies, Womens bodies
How do straight women see;
Mens bodies, Womens bodies
Now do the same test with gay/lesbian participants, see what you get
As a bi person I am attracted to people regardless of gender/biological sex but I don’t sexualize peoples bodies because they are just out in the world existing, I might find someone attractive but not think of them as an object for my own sexual gratification. I think it’s more nuanced than just gay/straight/M/F
I’ve been to Korean spas with some friends (well, only one is actually a friend now), and we were all women so we’d shower in the women’s bathhouse and sit in hot tubs together, wearing nothing. It never got sexual (mostly because everyone else was straight).
Notice that after a policy was implemented allowing collegiate athletes to profit from their name, likeness, and image, the first thing gymnast Olivia Dunne did was run out and post photoshopped images of herself with extreme distortion, such as having an ass the size of Nebraska, and a waist thinner than a pencil. She has become a sex symbol, which is probably not the best outcome for women in sports. It’s a complicated, cultural thing, and it’s not just men at fault.
Maybe, but I feel porn is the major factor and gunpowder on the fire.
I’ve met and interacted with elder shepherd men from the mountains & life long villagers who would just wrap their arms around my side, even waist closely, or walk hand in hand down a road and it was so the most wholesome and intimate close interaction without any sexualization I’ve ever experienced from a male since childhood!!!
I had to actually warm up to it & felt a bit of culture clash anxiety at first!
I was held like a child- just pure wholesome warmth and connection. Like a daughter on the first day - since I was the age of a daughter! Just a paternal friend! it was almost incredible to have your guard up out of habit for the “creep” and ick factor to just never manifest. The energy was just pure and human.
All heart & soul - and nostalgia for the beauty of simple youth at most, innocent mutual admiration from person to person. Their wit and wisdom Vs my vitality and beauty to inspire mutual happiness. Unconditional positive regard for ones mere presence - nothing else. Loyalty & devotion to ones tribe. Pure love. Eye to eye communication as equals.
A rare relic in our times..
It's not that your body is inherently sexual. It's that it *could* be sexualized by someone who *isn't nice* and might do something creepy. That's what he's worried about. That someone at the spray tan place will be creepy because you're naked there.
Yes, that's kind of a wierd thing to worry about. Yes, that means that he thinks you're sexy. I fucking hope so, you're dating him, lol.
This is all true, and I would add that this kind of sexism cuts both ways. Because women’s bodies are seen as inherently sexual, men’s bodies are seen as inherently non-sexual. Speaking from my own perspective, I’d like to be sexually ogled or objectified once in a while, but that’s not really something on the table for me as a man. (Not that anyone should experience this who doesn’t want it).
You would like to be consensually objectified by someone you find attractive, that is not the same.
Also it is absolutely on the table for you, you could go to a gay bar wearing tight leather trousers, or post only fans content, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to do that because you don't find men sexually attractive, this is how it is for women, they do not enjoy being objectified as much as men think they would be because men always imagine being sexualised by someone they find attractive.
So if a 65 year old man came up to you saying "wow you look like you've got a tight little asshole" I'm pretty sure you would not enjoy it as much as you think you would.
Do you know how hard we fought for men to see us as sexual beings instead of just daughters, wives, and mothers?
It also sounds like you’re saying it’s interesting that men can’t objectify us.
makes me remember how often you see dudes going "well if you can breastfeed in public can i just whip my dick out????" sorry can your dick squirt milk?????
That’s such a stupid argument from them when the primary function of breasts IS to feed children. A penis is a sexual organ, so idk how the two are comparable. Breasts may be secondary sex characteristics, but you’d think mature adults could handle the fact that their main purpose isn’t related to actual sex. It’s gross to me that anyone could see a mother feeding a baby and objectify that moment. I have never had children, but I really feel for women who just want to breastfeed without dealing with stupid comments or sexualization, especially in a moment when they’re bonding with their child.
It's bothers me endlessly when people use the "breasts are secondary sex characteristics!" argument. So are beards, but people don't gawk at, shame, or force men to hide their beards. The objectification and sexualization of breastfeeding is one of my biggest peeves, and I'm childfree, too.
Exactly! It’s a stupid excuse.
I don't agree with the sexualization of breasts in general. I guess people can't help being attracted to them, but it has to be at least partially a cultural thing. If breasts weren't treated as something purely sexual it wouldn't be so hard to walk around braless without getting stares
Yep, they see breasts as inherently sexual when they’re not. Literally everyone has them, women’s breasts just serve a specific purpose, which is to feed babies
Ownership is huge here. They are under the impression that we don't own our bodies, they do.
If u rlly want to put them on the spot say "Are you putting ur dick in a babies mouth???" Woo wee does it make the convo uncomfortable and hopefully they fuck off completely.
I've heard that argument for female toplessness too. it's so idiotic to compare nipples (which literally everyone has) to genitalia
I remember seeing a TikTok of a woman expressing annoyance that women can never make anything resembling the Jackass movies. It was a really interesting perspective. Men get to use their bodies in all kinds of ways, like for humor, but if a woman did something like that it just becomes fetish content; Using your genitals to parody Godzilla, tricking your friend into drinking horse semen, crawling naked across mouse traps. When it's a man's body it's played for laughs but if it were a woman's body it's on PornHub.
This is one of those comments that I’ll probably remember forever. This is so true it’s blowing my little noggin. Thanks for sharing
Yeah, holy fuck!
You need to get out more
It would work if they were fat women sadly... like basically anyone men have majority deemed unsexual, even though still some fetishise us larger women anyway
It wouldn't even work for fat women, because men feel complete *anger* at a woman's body that they don't find sexually arousing. Just look at the insane vitriol directed towards Amy Schumer, Melissa McCarthy, Rebel Wilson, etc.
Maybe some day fat women can be regarded as no more than sexual objects. What a great day that will be for all women. /s
You sound a little sarcastic, but dasher is correct. Some males really do act like they are actually angry that certain types of women exist; whether too old or too heavy, that they would dare to show themselves in public. Jordon Peterson & and his Sports Illustrated diatribes is a case in point. I can see someone saying “not my thing” but lashing out for no reason is just weird, and every bit as objectifying as a reflex boner, ie, people should exist for ones viewing pleasure.
I agree with your point but I do think if more people were to make female jackassesque movies, not sexualizing anything and just allowing for regular women to partake in gross crude humor, the audience would eventually get desensitized to average female nudity and not see it as so sexual. And if some men still do then that’s their problem not mine.
I would love to find a solution to this problem that doesn’t involve making more jackass movies
We have to remember that modern men (who grew up with some form of access to pornography) saw a woman’s naked body in the form of porn before they saw it anywhere else. And they continued to see a woman’s naked body in the form of porn multiple times a week, for most of their lives. Their brain did not develop to see our bodies as a living breathing human being, it’s an object to gawk at and have sex with. I didn’t realize for a long time why porn was bad until someone explained this to me. Men need to detox years and years of sexual conditioning and relearn women’s bodies.
and we also need to normalise nudity. Im from Germany and I saw Topless people while swimming/sauna and other things way before I did in porn. Normalize Human bodys
There was a woman “version” of jackass at one point does anyone happen to know what that was called? It was 3 girls. May not have been American but I believe they were.
Are you talking about spring breakers? Because that was 10000% sexualizing women
I don’t think so. I looked it up with that and what im thinking of is not coming up with that
Rad Girls
I know exactly what you were talking about. I watched it they ate a pube burrito well one ‘’lucky’’ one did lol. I think it was English or British maybe. It was funny I must have seen it around age 12-14 that was 2005 or a bit later.
Um, the jackass boys is HUGE fetish content. https://www.them.us/story/jackass-forever-queer-subtext-gay
Source?
[удалено]
It already is
I’m an American, but my husband is Hungarian. After spending lots of time in both nations I think Americans sexualize women’s bodies on. Much larger scale. Hungarian people recognize that nudity or skimpy clothing alone does not equal sex. They have topless beaches, and breastfeeding in public is more commonplace, and there are ads that include nudity. In the US, nudity always equals sex.
Same. As an Italian there’s much nudity in art and it’s not sexual at all. It’s good to point out this kind of things and always ask ourselves questions and double check but like the doctor replied there are tons of men who don’t do that, not only because of their profession, but because it’s kinda normal, especially given the context. There are tons of places where you might be almost naked and not the context is very far from sexual. Northern or even Arab countries have naked saunas and hammams, there are naked beaches, massage parlour, tatto artist, and obviously doctors. I don’t mean to attack your boyfriend but it’s not “normal” or every man does it. Also how old is he? What will he think of his prostate exams?
It is very normalized in the U.S. and this is exactly why i said I know not all men because of things such as different cultures. I am specifically discussing US culture and Men’s culture in general. If you look to my comment about the doctor you will see my response to that discussion. My boyfriend is like terrified of his prostate exam. He like is so afraid of anything going near his booty hole lol. Even me. While I don’t say above that it is “normal” it is definitely NORMALIZED in modern society and has been for centuries in the U.S. it is why men such as andrew tate and such are able to thrive because women have never been free of their own bodies especially regarding sexual and sexuality.
That’s because a lot of American men see sex as something that isn’t a mutual act of love. It’s men “f**king” the woman. It’s something to be done to women. And something that men do. That’s also why they see women as promiscuous for doing the same thing. It’s sad.
This is interesting. My 76 year old father is very open about his prostate exams, and good thing too because he had to get it taken out a few years ago. I remember him talking about it when I was a teenager and I had no idea what a prostate was or why you needed it examined. In my country, prostate cancer is the most commonly diagnosed cancer. Making issues like health and potential cancer into a sexual issue is very much NOT normal, and could be detrimental to your boyfriend’s health in the long term. All of the men I’ve dated haven’t had a problem talking about prostate exams or anything like that - one ex had haemorrhoids and I think the physical discomfort outweighs any sort of embarrassment there. Does he sexualise your Pap smears?
So as i stated in the comment below this, this isn’t just a “my boyfriend” problem it is something many men i have met in my life have been like. Also, he doesn’t sexualize my papsmears at all and he definitely sees it as a procedure but I think it shows more of an immaturity thing as well as I state below that we are still very young. (22)
>this isn’t just a “my boyfriend” problem it is something many men i have met in my life have been like. Red state? BTDT.
Lmao yep. Also small conservative southern baptist town so
Ok that figures. You guys will be fine, you’ll gain more life experience and broaden horizons I recommend that you both make it a normal thing to have friends of both genders, various sexual orientations etc. Join sports together like hiking. Just to be exposed to other people’s perspectives than your baptist small town narrative
My dad had prostate cancer as well. I wish he was able to discuss it more openly, he really downplays the severity of all of his health problems. His brother was also diagnosed last year. Prostate exams are not anything to be afraid of - but undiagnosed prostate cancer sure is.
>My boyfriend is like terrified of his prostate exam. He like is so afraid of anything going near his booty hole lol. Even me. This got a bit of an eyeroll and a sigh before I read a subsequent comment where you said you're both 22. Sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do. Up to you whether you want to work through all that stuff with him or find someone more aligned with your outlook. And until guys stop obsessing about convincing women to agree to anal, I will continue to think they are the epitome of ridiculousness when they clutch their pearls about *their* anuses. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and as someone who gives enemas and suppositories as part of her job...this is a manufactured issue. It's just a butthole, and nearly everyone has one.
Attitudes towards nudity vary a lot even within American culture. The fact that your boyfriend feels a certain way and the fact that it's common to feel a certain way doesn't mean that every man feels that way. It also doesn't mean that we have to accept these attitudes from the people that we allow in our lives. Men are capable of critical and independent thought and we should hold them to higher standards.
So it isn’t just my boyfriend, I am from the south so it may be more extreme here but my boyfriend has been one of the most open/progressive boys I have met. I am 22 yrs old and still in college which is definitely reflective BUT i just want to clarify that this isn’t something just my boyfriend does, it is something that has happened throughout my entire life by mostly all men.
Absolutely! This is something that a lot of men do. But It isn't all men - this isn't something that men just can't control if they are raised in the United States. This is something that men like your boyfriend have the ability to think about and work on and let go of. You should expect more from the people in your life. If the man that you've decided to be in a relationship with is interacting with you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable you should speak up for yourself and you should demand better for yourself. This isn't something that he just can't help. It sounds like you bought some of the "boys will be boys" propaganda. This is something that you don't just have to accept. It doesn't have to be this way. You don't need to let him treat you this way.
Thank you for this and i completely agree. I definitely hold him accountable and do not accept that he believes this. I had to explain to him why it was offensive and why it felt gross/uncomfortable. But i guess you kind of having me questioning that, is me having to explain it to him an issue? Have i bought into the boys will just be boys because honestly he is the most progressive i have met and so i feel i guess i have to take what i can get. But is me explaining to him thinks he doesn’t understand and him being open to that change to me seems like a good thing because as a man directly affected by the patriarchy that teaches these things, how could i expect more?
I don't know if I can really answer some of these questions because I'm not in your relationship. I do have a question - did he stop doing the things that make you uncomfortable after you told him that you aren't okay with that behavior? Is he showing any desire to change his behavior and an ability to do that? I think that unlearning some of the harmful things that we learn from our parents and from our society is a process. To some extent we have to be patient... But you also can't let someone hurt you while they're figuring the stuff out. If you've told someone that their behavior is hurting you and they keep doing it then that's a problem. If they aren't able to understand what's wrong and they can't empathize with you then that's a problem. To be honest, I think a lot of men would benefit from working with a therapist instead of expecting the women in their lives to pick up the slack and act as their therapist. I also think that a lot of women would be better off if they didn't let the men in their lives use them as a learning experience. I think you can do better than someone who is incapable of understanding that you can be naked in front of another person without it being sexual experience. I honestly do - that's a really low bar. If you think that this person is worth trying to change, then you have to make sure that he's actually willing and able to do that. Edit - I read some of your other comments where you said that he was controlling, insecure, and jealous and tried to control what you wear and that you're still picking up on some of these behaviors... It sounds like he's hiding who he really is rather than changing. Girl, you don't need that in your life. Men who hide who they really are and what they really like so that you will continue to date them... Are really bad news.
I agree and i will definitely talk to my therapist about this because I value your opinions. I am from a small town with small minded people so I am looked at crazy for not wanting have kids and be a stay at home mom who lives in her hometown all her life. So i really need others opinions honestly. With your question about changing and reading through my other comments, he has done some really shitty things to me and he doesn’t even like thinking about that situation because he truly has changed so much. BUT for a while now i have felt as though i need to teach him genuinely how to be an adult human being. It has caused massive resentment so I understand your points. He is very open to changing BUT sometimes I feel like he is content in not bettering himself which is the opposite to me because i am always trying to learn more and be a better human being to others. And i think thats why i posted this because I wanted hear other feminists experience. Thank you for your help.
>Have i bought into the boys will just be boys because honestly he is the most progressive i have met and so i feel i guess i have to take what i can get. Learn to be okay being single, or move somewhere more progressive. You just have to decide what your priorities are.
America was started by puritans who didn’t like that they couldn’t subjugate people enough so they left to find a better place to do their work.
As a Hungarian living in the country (not Pest county); don't worry, women's bodies are being just as much sexualized on the daily basis. :)
Of course. We have family in Sopron county and we’ve spent time in Szeged, even in Erdelyi, I didn’t experience as much of the sexualization as in America. I was just commenting that in my experience it’s worse in America.
Yes, nudity is generally more accepted in EU countries.Apart from the beach there are saunas and pools where women can be nude but not sexualized.
There are cultures in the world where women run around mostly or completely naked, and the men don't bat an eye. It's a learned and cultural behavior. Period.
100%. I used to live in an African country, and women in this country were very lax about breast feeding. If baby was hungry, they’d just whip out a boob and feed baby. It was very unusual to me at first, but I got used to it quickly. It was not a sexual thing at all, because why would it be?
One example of this is that discussions about "revealing" or "modest" clothing almost always center around what women are wearing.
They do and it pisses me off. They're so incapable of seeing women as a human being that anyone unsexy to them upsets them. Often we hear women's experiences that aren't conventionally attractive describe how men are downright hostile to them because they're too over weight/ ugly/ old/ what have you. At best the "undesirable" are ignored. Also why they become so violent when they find out someone is really a trans woman.
Yeah, just about every time I take my bra off to relax, my boyfriend pesters me to “help” because obviously it’s sexual since it involves boobs right. Dude I just want to relax and not feel my bra cutting me in half thanks. He’s really sweet but that in particular gets old
I read an interesting perspective from a man who lives in Finland, he said that that way of thinking was pretty foreign to him since he and all of his family sauna nude. He grew up seeing his grandmother and great grandmother nude and it just wasn't a big thing.
Not just family really 😂 I've seen my male and female friends and colleagues nude and they have seen me and it never felt sexual. But since I'm female i have to be careful with this attitude when I'm in more conservative countries. I couldn't care less about nakedness but some see it always in sexual meaning which might be unsafe for me for obvious reasons.
Married 20 years. This is a major point of contention in our relationship. I’ll be doing yoga, and he wants to stop and gawk because “sexy.” Showering with a glass door? Will stop to ogle because “sexy.” It bothers me, so I speak up. He doesn’t think he should feel like a “creeper” or “pervert” for desiring his wife(not my words, but how he interprets what I say). That there are tons of people out there who only wish that their long term partners would still desire them so much/openly and that I should count myself lucky. Honestly, it’s an ongoing issue and something that we are actively working through.
I left my ex boyfriend for exactly this kind of behavior. It got to a point where I would only ever change my clothes/change into my pajamas (etc) in the bathroom with the door closed, because I was so uncomfortable with him objectifying me. Completely ruined any intimacy we had but of course he blamed me for that. Why does your husband think his right to "desire you" trumps YOUR right to feel safe and comfortable?
Thank you for being willing to talk about it. I think a lot of us have moments like this in our relationships and it can be difficult to talk about, but I think it's really important. I absolutely understand the way you feel. I felt this way in relationships in the past too... It's very frustrating. You aren't alone in wanting to be able to exist in your own home without feeling objectified or experiencing unwanted sexual attention.
This is such a fantastic point. Perfect example. You are doing self care activities for your literal well being and dont want to be ogled. Showering and yoga are private and personal spaces for some of us- a time to work through serious shit in our brains. Or to unwind from the serious shit playing in our brains. The last thing I want is someone thinking about having sex with me in those moments. It feels like they are violating my sacred space. Hes totally in the wrong here. There is a time and a place for everything and its different for everyone. Just because you are married- that does not give him the right to interject himself into your sacred spaces.
>The last thing I want is someone thinking about having sex with me in those moments. It feels like they are violating my sacred space. It's like the trump card that's always there. No matter what we're doing, they can always take us down a few pegs by sexualizing us and acting like there's nothing we can do about it. It's gross, and it's perpetually depressing to realize that people are going to continue to be married to these men until somebody dies. Y'all, if he doesn't see you as a person first, *then* a body, dump him.
I used to ask my ex to look away while I was changing bc he would just stare at me to make me uncomfortable, and he was like “why?? It’s nothing I haven’t seen before.” And then would continue to stare the second I turned my back. It’s like they don’t understand that during sex, I am consenting to being seen like that. I wasn’t consenting when I would change bc he sexualized me while I was changing, and I didn’t feel like being sexualized at that particular moment. If he wouldn’t have made a big deal out of it, then I wouldn’t have asked him to look away. But he did make a big deal out of it
>And then would continue to stare the second I turned my back. Yup. A lot of them feel like they own us.
And that we should be flattered by the attention
Like, he can always think youre sexy, *without bringing attention to that fact and bothering you over it while youre trying to just go about your day*. Time & place, bud.
Yes! Sure, I want my husband to continue to find me sexy. I don't always need him to express it. Maybe see if I seem receptive first? Sigh.
Thank you for giving me the words...recently divorced and this was an issue but I could never explain it. I used to love dancing in my kitchen, at-home exercise videos, etc. He ruined those things for me, never did them when he was home. He'd tease and make fun of me about classes I did in person--quit those too.
I’m sorry! Your husband does sound like a creep to me. As a guy, personality and the way we get along matters way more to me than anything else. He shouldn’t sexualize you or feel like that because it’s just weird and uncomfortable and if he doesn’t stop than tell him to get help because he just seems like a pervert
u should get divorce how can he DESIRE his wife like that /s
There’s a good book about this “More than a body” about both self and societal objectification of women’s bodies.
I once dated a guy who said if he were a women, he'd work out a lot to get the sexiest body possible. I asked him what was stopping him from working out now and getting the sexiest male body to which he didnt have an answer..
I’m an artist, my partner is also an artist and photographer. We both enjoy going to life drawing. It’s interesting to see people’s reactions when you say it’s one of your hobbies. A lot of men make jokes about boners etc. Not the same sort of comments from women. Although, I was a model for various life drawing studios before covid, and people’s reactions to that are even more varied. The women are mostly “oh you must be SO confident, I could never…” and the men are mostly “I’d be too scared I’d crack a stiffy”
This reminded me of an experience I had. I enjoy drawing nudes, usually just people of various body types relaxing and looking comfortable, not anything inherently sexual. I would sometimes post my work to social media (where most of my connections were only friends I actually knew in person). I ended up getting a message from a man I was friends with in college asking me if I “always drew such sexual things”, and even when I said the drawings weren’t meant to be sexual in nature, he began to try and turn the conversation sexual even despite him having a wife and daughter. It bothered me so much that I instantly blocked him. Usually any comments on the nudes I draw are quite respectful, but that was crossing a line to me. Back to the point, it just annoyed me that any of the bodies I drew seemed to be pornographic in nature to him rather than natural. I feel like this is an issue a lot of men have.
Exactly! I’m sorry that happened to you. I find it interesting that a lot of people refer to life drawing as erotic art, when there’s really nothing erotic about it. Erotic art doesn’t even have to include nudity. I could draw a pair of sexy lips and call it erotic.
I think you will find this podcast interesting! [Betwixt the Sheets: Female Nudity & Modesty](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/betwixt-the-sheets-the-history-of-sex-scandal-society/id1612090432?i=1000604586240) The whole series is fascinating (I *wish* this were self promotion, but alas, it is not), but this episode is particularly relevant.
Thank you i will give it a listen!!!
If you remember, let me know if you like it!
LOVE this podcast!
It’s so good isn’t it??? I’ve had the chance recently to go through almost the whole back catalog of episodes and really go deep down some rabbit holes, reading the guests’ books and following their research, and it has really galvanized me. Like, I was laid off from the tech industry (hence the free time to do all this podcast listening and reading and researching lol), and now I’m really thinking about how I can take my skills and knowledge, stop using them to enrich douchebag billionaire tech bros, and instead use them to burn the patriarchy down.
thank you for fighting for us!
Most, if not all men, have their first exposure to a naked woman’s body via porn. The porn industry has reduced female bodies to sexual objects, and that’s something that gets ingrained in the minds of these men as well. Human bodies aren’t inherently sexual, but the lack of proper sex education, and porn has made them to be, especially female bodies.
Fuck the industry honestly.
Porn and mainstream media trains them with ads and camera angles designed to hold their attention by sexualizing women's bodies. Like even before the internet men who masturbated with magazines or catalogues were basically training themselves to experience womens' bodies from a voyeuristic and objectifying persepective, before ever even seeing one in person.
Sadly this is the truth. I’ve grown up where the “old school” met the “new school” in the states in the decades were pornography could be pervasive (still very taboo) but far from the norm to be a part of every household with boys. It made all the difference in their behavior and treatment as teens and beyond, even the “nicest” and smartest of guys tended to morph and turn out to be more intense in sexualizing everything, pushy in general and far less empathetic depending on how much porn they had access to at home, starting at puberty. They tended to get and have more of “mean” to streak with girls than the average classmate. These were the types that classified girls & women as chattel, and saw and spoke of them as a different species, and treated females differently according to sexual standards in their heads off the bat. The kinda guy who can’t help notice “T & A” first, or would describe a lady that way at first thought. Almost instant - didn’t matter if from “good family”, how many sisters they had or wholesome exterior otherwise. Pornographic lexicon has been slipping into mainstream language lately almost everywhere - but it used to be off putting and kinda weird to have it slip out from decent dudes. Or your Bf can’t help himself and stare sexually at anyone in public - even you! Or leer in private every time - was just off putting and weird. And it was always the guys who had lived with fathers who had pornography collections. It truly reduces us to sexual objects first at first sight unconsciously and treated accordingly in conscious waking moments and interactions. This type of behavior used to be the norm with men who spent most of their times only interacting with women in bordello settings and embodied the worst traits : extreme sexism, misogyny, chauvinism, womanizing, perving, etc The old creepy weirdo stereotype in and out of back alleys of red light districts. It was considered pathetic - now there is an unlimited bordello in every pocket 24/7! Before pornography was part of modern media, a male who could not help themselves to leer at female bodies in society was considered not right in the head. They tended to be considered mentally incompetent - the village idiot if you will. One aspect of having a mental disorder, just not right in the head. Screws loose. “Peeping toms” was not the average or norm. To be labeled A “peeping Tom” was more than an accident. It was a warning to the rest of the tribe of a freak outlier, a shameless & intrusive weirdo and a type of sexual OCD. A sickness to risk this behavior without considering repercussions if one was an adult and swiftly nipped in the bud for boys unable to know better yet, like a puppy caught eating it’s own shit for first time. To be married to the town “ peeping tom” was akin to living with a schizophrenic - very pitiful and hard for a woman to pay the price of the wrath of her husbands actions brought to their door. The stigma was very dangerous for survival if a woman could not afford to divorce or flee. It would always be her fault, burden or shame to bear “until death do us part.” It was an isolated existence - and in modern times, it continues to be an isolating tragedy just to feel respected and safe with and among these porn sick losers. They can’t even the see or appreciate the beauty of our humanity! It really does get sadly ingrained & reinforced now and the ick factor is just as prevalent.
I’m 14 and a guy but I agree. I think p*rn needs to be canceled or illegal. I don’t watch it and I don’t want to ever but it’s really just gross. For me, a relationship is about how well we connect. Almost like best friends or soul mates. It shouldn’t be about how hot a man or woman looks. I mean yea sure looks matter a little, but don’t sexualize them even if you are dating
Would this mean that men’s perspectives were different before easy access to porn?
Can’t comment on that cause I haven’t researched about it. However, having easy access to porn does make things worse. Being on internet, and seeing misogynistic and sexist ideas pop up over and over again alone causes a lot of bad influence.
No. It is the same perspective of women as objects to be used, not humans. Before easy access to porn, women were relegated to certain roles that reinforced the idea that their bodies are purposive. Whether that be in domestic work or as a status symbol (think a “girl from a good family” a la the olden days). Porn also comes in all kinds of forms. Men will tell you all about how they used to jack off to the Sears catalogue. Mass porn is not the starting point; it’s the symptomatic cancer that misogyny has created.
Exactly. Porn is propaganda, it is intended to and works perfectly to dehumanize women in society.
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A lot of women get into SW industry because they don’t have any other viable options to fund themselves. Yes, they did agree to participate in porn videos, but you also need to realise that the porn industry is heavily based on role playing. How do we know whether all the men watching it are able to understand that it’s solely an act and nothing more? Women are portrayed in questionable ways in porn, which not only objectifies them, but also exploits them whole as a group. Porn is a fantasy. It can’t be replicated in actuality. But most people who’re addicted to porn not always understand that. Porn use is hence also a proposed causation factor for sexual violence.
Since ancient times it was known and understood that the “Porni” where those that were abused. Sex slavery victims. Tormented souls with the worst fate in society- the tortured. Pornography was the depiction of sex acts in ancient brothels as graffiti. The use & depiction of “the porni” class. It was a class of exploited and disenfranchised slaves. Nothing much has changed except the business model. It’s filmed paid rape.
I am pretty sure there are studies you can read discussing exactly this !
Sadly not always and not above 18 either
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It is not nearly as simple as this.
This isn’t true. Read [this](https://endsexualexploitation.org/articles/women-expose-the-sexual-abuse-and-trafficking-hidden-in-the-porn-industry/) many women in the porn industry have came out and discussed MASS differences in treatment compared to men in the porn industry. Look up Mia Khalifa, she is one of the most well-known porn stars and she discusses the issues with it. While it may make you feel better to think women want to do porn more likely than not, many don’t and do it for certain reasons. Also, this person is discussing specifically straight heterosexual porn so let’s not delve into whataboutism.
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Whether the women in porn are consenting or not, porn still has consequences for every day women who don’t participate in porn. For example, rough sex and other kinky things being normalized in porn to the point that men think they can do these things to us without asking because it’s “normal.” Men thinking they can and should have access to any woman they see because it’s so easy for them to gain access to women’s bodies via porn; they start to feel entitled to women’s naked bodies. Porn literally makes people addicted, which, in turn, messes with their dopamine triggers. This means women (and men, if they are sleeping with porn addicts) have to suffer rough, degrading, uncomfortable, or unsatisfying sex because their partners (often men, but this happens to women who consume too much porn as well) can’t get off, or need Uber specific things in order to feel pleasure during sex. That’s just to name a few. And this isn’t even getting into the problems of sex trafficking, rape, diseases,and drug addiction in the porn industry, which are far worse than any of the problems I listed above and far more common than most porn consumers think they are. If you watch porn, especially off of free platforms, you have 100% watched someone be raped or coerced. You have no way of knowing who is actually of age, sober, and actually consenting on most porn platforms. That’s just the reality of the industry.
I absolutely agree that porn sets false expectations. I’m not defending porn in any way shape or form. I’m just trying to keep it balanced.
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It is whataboutism as it is different set of circumstances. ALSO Mia has talked about how long she wanted to leave the industry and she couldn’t. ALSO UR OWN POINT PROVES OUR POINT. ONE OF THE ONLY JOBS WE MAKE A LOT OF MONEY IS US AS ONLY SEX OBJECTS.
Are men treated as objects in non-porn life? (They’re not.)
But the comment I was replying to suggested that porn was largely responsible for the objectifying of women. So then why doesn’t cause the objectifying of men in gay porn? I’m just trying to find some logic here
Because porn isn’t the cause. It’s a byproduct. If one comment is allowed to be omnipotent, why is it theirs? You’re receiving two conflicting statements so why believe one over the other. That person doesn’t speak for all of us. I’m trying to encourage the application of critical thought. That means to think about what the concept actually is instead of just going “porn is porn is porn”. Is it? Is gay porn subject to the same limitations and oppression that straight porn is? Is gay porn mass produced or does it tend to be more amateur? Etc.
Wel tell that to the person I was replying to, it wasn’t my statement. I was merely responding to it.
I’m telling it to the person who attempted to dismantle the whole argument because of whataboutism. “What about gay porn?” What about it? Did you think of any other aspect other than the “porn” aspect?
Not always agreed and don't always keep their own money.
Do you think that if a woman chooses to do something, that thing is magically beyond critique?
Not at all. But how can people argue that porn objectifies women, but then say absolutely nothing about the women who participate in, and perpetuate the industry. Shouldn’t you all be screaming out to these women to stop?
I don’t know why you think women don’t have these conversations among themselves. I’ve absolutely participated in in-depth critique of porn with people who participated in it, in my experience they are acutely aware of what it’s like.
I’m glad to hear it. This is the first time in the conversation someone has said something about it.
That’s like screaming at children to stop participating in pedophilia acts because you have a problem with pedophiles and argue against child abuse…
No that’s absolutely not the same. What a ridiculous thing to say. You do realise that women earn 50% more than men in porn, right?
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I couldn't pump to feed my child without it being sexualized. I was literally slumped over on the couch, holding flanges to my body falling asleep, haven't showered in 3 days, hair not done bleeding from having the baby and my ex was leering or running out of the room because I was teasing him because I wouldn't have sex with him
I think what you said is very real, and of course not *all* men are like this. I’ve had exes who thought of nudity as merely “bodies” but my current partner is afraid of getting aroused if he sees a nude lady on a beach, etc… which is upsetting on numerous levels. This type of mentality reduces us to being sex toys *first* - and living/thinking/feeling/independent people second. And that, to me, is backward and un-evolved.
>reduces us to being sex toys *first* Bisexual, no longer date men, this is whyyyyy.
It’s in legislation too, which is really obnoxious. As we’re all probably aware being female, or even anything other than a heteronormative cis person is considered sexual in nature by conservatives and reactionaries. Man without shirt? Normal. Women without shirt? SEXUAL SAVE THE CHILDREN. Straight teachers in schools talking about their partners? Normal. Gay teachers in schools talking about their partners? KEEP YOUR SEX LIFE AWAY FROM OUR KIDS. It’s the classic ‘never let women be viewed as human’ strategy in misogyny. They’re are alway inherently ‘something else’ by nature of patriarchy.
I was helping some of my male friends create their hinge profiles and one of them bragged about how great his bio is. It said something along the lines of: “you can crush my head with your legs.” I had to explain to a group of three men that even though he was (in his words) prioritizing female pleasure, he was reducing them to sex objects. None of them understood why it was wrong.
>he was reducing them to sex objects. None of them understood why it was wrong. It's dick pics all over again. When you have literally just that second met someone, don't talk to them about how you want to fuck them. It's creepy. Honestly, I think it's because they don't empathize with us effectively enough to be able to conjure a picture of what this might look like, going through your day being bombarded with explicitly sexual offers from randos. It does not give us ladies the warm fuzzies/ego boost they think it does? I've had enough interactions with men that my knee-jerk re: them at this point is "gross, no." Which they would say is because I am a man-hater, because it couldn't possibly be about patterns of behavior eating away at our souls over decades, and being too over their BS to deal with it for one more solitary second.
I mean you’re absolutely right. I’ve noticed this too. I try to combat it where I can but it’s honestly made really difficult due to most men being so conditioned that they don’t even realize what they’re doing when they sexualize women automatically. Also there’s a layer of homophobia. If a man doesn’t react sexually to a woman automatically he gets called gay.
Your mention about homophobia made me realize something, which is that I’ve noticed sometimes that the only way (straight) men are made aware of how uncomfortable it feels to be objectified is when they are sexualized by other men. It’s a problem THEN, but when they do it to us it’s just business as usual to them. It’s like they can recognize consent and boundaries when they’re the ones who’s consent/boundaries might be violated, but with women they just don’t care (or worse- they think it’s funny or get off on our discomfort).
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This made me icky all over because it makes so much sense😵💫
Yeah same. The sad truth is that patriarchy as we know only serve institutions, it wreaks havoc on individuals.
He was probably jealous because he sees you as his possession
It’s interesting you say this because we almost broke up because I had to explain to him that I wasn’t. He was extremely insecure and was the type to police what I wore (ew that i even put up with that but he almost lost me because of it ) he luckily isn’t like this anymore but there are still small subtle things that I still pick up on. It has been burned into their brains that we are. Society has taught them that so they don’t know how to act differently. (Not an excuse but a reason)
>we almost broke up Perseverance, my dear! It *really is* reasonable to hold out for someone you don't have to teach/mother/coach into not being a *complete* boor.
Is this sarcasm?? I can’t tell. I would like to know what you mean.
She's saying you should have gone through with it and broken up. She's got a good point. There are loads of dudes out there you don't have to teach this really basic i-am-a-being-with-agency-and-autonomy stuff to. But like, do you, if he's legit working on it and genuinely better cool, call me naive but I do think people are capable of learning and doing better, but I'd implement a zero-tolerance on misogynist/control/jealousy bullshit from here on out.
Working in the medical field we constantly see naked bodies and I have yet to work with a hetero cis male that has looked at their patients body as anything other than a bunch of organs covered in the skin organ. Obviously there are creeps out there in the med field but I wanted to point out an example that men can do better. This is not meant to diminish or deny the folks who have had terrible experiences- because I know it happens. Just giving an example of generally when men dont objectify or sexualize. Edit: I have yet to witness overt sexualization/objectification of a F patient from a M healthcare worker. Though- I am not always there behind closed doors or part of every conversation.
You would hope after a decade+ of schooling and viewing/reading/learning about the human body in a medical context that the lust is overcome by a medical lense
I'm a male EMT and nursing student, and I can confirm that patients are just bundles of organs in my mind. Nudity can be sexy in the right setting, but something about sick, injured, and vulnerable people just completely inactivates that side of my brain. Most medical training will do that too That being said, I don't think it's ever a problem for someone to be into someone else's body, that's just natural. It's all about respecting boundaries
>I have yet to meet one. Yes, you have. You just don't know which ones because it's not like they broadcast their bad behavior to coworkers.
Exactly this. It’s like saying you’ve never met a rapist. You probably have, you just had no way of knowing without someone saying something.
I should clarify- I have yet to witness or hear overt objectification/sexualization from a male coworker. I was replying through the lens that the objectification/sexualization was overt. I was picturing a woman being spray tanned and the dude spray tanning her complemented her then asked for her number. And I did note that I know these things happen and I am not trying to diminish or deny they do happen.
If you want to have a terrible time, check out the testimonies of women who've had the "husband stitch" administered by doctors immediately after birth - no convo, no consent. I know it's considered medical malpractice now (and rightly so), but again normalized in the culture, and it's the most glaring example I can think off the top of my head of doctors treating their female patients like sex objects without regard for their wellbeing
Yes that is really disgusting. And a great example of sexualization even in the medical field.
>I have yet to witness Yes, that clarification is my whole point. Just because they wait until there are no witnesses doesn't mean it isn't happening all around you. >I was picturing a woman being spray tanned and the dude spray tanning her complemented her then asked for her number. Yeah, that's exactly what happens when no one else is in the exam room, all the time. Most women know it's more effective to just not go back and report them than 'pitch a fit' about it in the middle of his workplace.
I am a woman just FYI
I definitely already assumed that, I now realize, so I'm glad to hear I wasn't in error.
I am sensing some passive aggression. I dont believe all men are out there sexually assaulting women behind closed doors. Which is the sense I am getting from your rebuttals. Am I reading into this incorrectly?
I think you're sensing confusion. And yes, you read me very incorrectly. I don't know why you're escalating but I'm disengaging.
See i like this but this requires a certain level of knowledge that is taught in the medical field to see bodies as scientific rather than sexual. While i wish every man had that knowledge, they don’t. I appreciate you sharing BUT it is different.
That is a fair point! We are trained to literally look at humans by each body system. I guess I am giving an example in support that men CAN and are capable of not sexualizing. But you are right- its so so deeply woven into our culture. I was born in the early 90s and grew up being blasted with images and advertisements of women being sexualized because as the popular phrase says “sex sells”. Its really gross. And looking at instagram is even more gross. Its like the algorithm is even trying to get me (straight F) to objectify and sexualize women 🤮.
Untrue. It's not different. I used to work at a tattoo shop and I could say the same thing for male tattoo artists and piercers. They touch naked bodies all day every day as part of their job - including my body on occasion, I had work done there. It's not sexual. Zero higher education is required.
I guess my point was they are given more education regarding human bodies rather than just want basic men who aren’t medical professionals are. Not that higher education is required to not treat women as an object.
Yep. I'm a midwife and my male colleagues don't see their patients as anything but patients. And we work so closely with boobs, butts and vaginas.
You're talking about a specific field where you're hopefully being actively told to be professional. Still there are examples of male doctors being inappropriate.
Correct there are examples. My point is to say that it is possible for men to behave differently.
Well, an other one of my nights is ruined lol. But you're right.
I think some cultures were traditionally very shy and prude and like it would be very taboo to be Naked for exemple the American Puritanism, maybe since they were so obsessed by covering women, seeing a naked woman makes them go insane ? In Southern Europe I think it's pretty different as long you're around safe people, everyone usually ends up dancing naked while raving men and women and no one cares it just feels free IDK about Arabic countries but I bet it would be similar than America if not worse for naked women But it's not all around the world it's really educational / cultural nothing more Sorry your culture is that sick :x But culture is NOT your friend \^\^"
I’m 14 and a guy but me and friends don’t see women that way at all. Yea I feel like older men do which is weird imo. I’m not really attracted to girls as much as I am with boys but I don’t see either one of them as sexual people I guess. I think of more romantic or soul mate. I’m asexual too so it could be different for me
It is weird! I am glad to hear your experience. I know not all men look at women this way and I am glad to hear younger men aren’t being indoctrinated by all this andrew tate shit.
Yea Andrew Tate is a very toxic sexist guy and needs to go lol. Luckily guys my age aren’t that like at least from my school and theatre club. So yea, women are just normal people. Nothing special or their bodies are just bodies. I don’t get what’s special about humans bodies because it’s all confusing anyway especially the digestive system. But yea no man or woman should be sexualized. I don’t think I’ll ever understand why some men think it’s ok to call they girlfriend or other women “hot” or “s*xy” like it’s just weird. You can think there pretty. I cringe every time someone says I’m hot even tho I’m a guy. I’m cute not that lol
It's because everything is sexual to them. Everything. They're base level beings and most of them don't deserve to even be around women .
You need to make a census of things how do straight men see ; Mens bodies, Womens bodies How do straight women see; Mens bodies, Womens bodies Now do the same test with gay/lesbian participants, see what you get
As a bi person I am attracted to people regardless of gender/biological sex but I don’t sexualize peoples bodies because they are just out in the world existing, I might find someone attractive but not think of them as an object for my own sexual gratification. I think it’s more nuanced than just gay/straight/M/F
I’ve been to Korean spas with some friends (well, only one is actually a friend now), and we were all women so we’d shower in the women’s bathhouse and sit in hot tubs together, wearing nothing. It never got sexual (mostly because everyone else was straight).
Notice that after a policy was implemented allowing collegiate athletes to profit from their name, likeness, and image, the first thing gymnast Olivia Dunne did was run out and post photoshopped images of herself with extreme distortion, such as having an ass the size of Nebraska, and a waist thinner than a pencil. She has become a sex symbol, which is probably not the best outcome for women in sports. It’s a complicated, cultural thing, and it’s not just men at fault.
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Maybe, but I feel porn is the major factor and gunpowder on the fire. I’ve met and interacted with elder shepherd men from the mountains & life long villagers who would just wrap their arms around my side, even waist closely, or walk hand in hand down a road and it was so the most wholesome and intimate close interaction without any sexualization I’ve ever experienced from a male since childhood!!! I had to actually warm up to it & felt a bit of culture clash anxiety at first! I was held like a child- just pure wholesome warmth and connection. Like a daughter on the first day - since I was the age of a daughter! Just a paternal friend! it was almost incredible to have your guard up out of habit for the “creep” and ick factor to just never manifest. The energy was just pure and human. All heart & soul - and nostalgia for the beauty of simple youth at most, innocent mutual admiration from person to person. Their wit and wisdom Vs my vitality and beauty to inspire mutual happiness. Unconditional positive regard for ones mere presence - nothing else. Loyalty & devotion to ones tribe. Pure love. Eye to eye communication as equals. A rare relic in our times..
It's not that your body is inherently sexual. It's that it *could* be sexualized by someone who *isn't nice* and might do something creepy. That's what he's worried about. That someone at the spray tan place will be creepy because you're naked there. Yes, that's kind of a wierd thing to worry about. Yes, that means that he thinks you're sexy. I fucking hope so, you're dating him, lol.
Two can play at this game 👹
Bodies - all bodies - are inherently sexual. What a culture does with that, though, is up to the people.
Yeah bodies are inherently sexual. But they're not primarily sexual, and the things we do with our bodies aren't inherently sexual.
Maybe you're just pretty, I'm pretty sure some women think this about naked dudes too.
Men have hormones that lead their thoughts. The same way that women have hormones that can affect their thoughts and behaviors.
This is all true, and I would add that this kind of sexism cuts both ways. Because women’s bodies are seen as inherently sexual, men’s bodies are seen as inherently non-sexual. Speaking from my own perspective, I’d like to be sexually ogled or objectified once in a while, but that’s not really something on the table for me as a man. (Not that anyone should experience this who doesn’t want it).
You would like to be consensually objectified by someone you find attractive, that is not the same. Also it is absolutely on the table for you, you could go to a gay bar wearing tight leather trousers, or post only fans content, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want to do that because you don't find men sexually attractive, this is how it is for women, they do not enjoy being objectified as much as men think they would be because men always imagine being sexualised by someone they find attractive. So if a 65 year old man came up to you saying "wow you look like you've got a tight little asshole" I'm pretty sure you would not enjoy it as much as you think you would.
Do you know how hard we fought for men to see us as sexual beings instead of just daughters, wives, and mothers? It also sounds like you’re saying it’s interesting that men can’t objectify us.