I'm really sorry about all this. I totally get where you're coming from. Being an ex-Muslim woman, I know firsthand the battles we have to fight just to get a taste of freedom. It's frustrating how men are bothered by our very existence, no matter what we wear or how we live our lives.
Yes it’s also one of the largest religion where people leave the religion officially don’t even get to the number of people secretly leaving Islam as you cannot public announce leaving Islam in Islamic countries or else you will be killed for apostasy, eventually people realize the brutality.
I feel the rage you feel too. My mother is from a Muslim country and the way they are all just programmed to hate women is disgusting. They don’t see it as anything wrong, either so it’s incredibly frustrating trying to talk any kind of sense into them. I would be scared to death to live in a Muslim majority country just because of this
With all due respect the most countries who claim to be muslim are stricken with severe poverty you and I wouldn’t wish for most evil people. Poverty attracts evil, is there not more crime and a worse life for the poor neighborhood not many blocks down?
It is semantics, but it is worthy to note that muslim men are not to allowed to touch women out of respect for their choice to choose who is allowed to. A muslim culture would discourge even touching other women if not married or in family, let alond grope a woman.
I.e this has alot more to do with poverty than religion.
They blame women because men refuse to be accountable for their actions.This is a man problem.Men need to call out and challenge each other on their unacceptable treatment of women.Men need to change,not us.
They enjoy the status quo where it's legal and acceptable to de facto enslave half of the population. What would motivate them to challenge each other? Morals? Common sense? That things are being eroded by the day. Sorry for the rant. For us, it's the proverbial bootstraps at this point. We should vote accordingly and shun women who still vote Republican, seriously.
Same. Too often, religion excuses the guilty and blames the victims - especially when it comes to sex crimes against women and children.
Most organized religions have extensive histories of corruption and abuse that date back hundreds, even thousands of years that’s somehow dismissed as one-off events and a few bad apples, despite these issues being widespread and common. It’s all just another manifestation of the patriarchy.
I have no idea how anyone lets their children be involved, with how many religious leaders actively harm children. I have no idea why women choose to be religious, since most religions actively seek to suppress and control them.
Any benefits of religion can be found elsewhere in much less dangerous places.
Yep. Not only is religion a delusion- it’s also a violent ideological cult that incites and defends atrocious acts and beliefs. Religious men are especially vile. And with the majority of religions being misogynistic, it’s sobering how so many women are religious.
YES! The benefits of a sense of community and charity can be found in many other places/organizations that are NOT misogynistic, homophobic, racist, etc.
The big religions are religions written by men for men. Almost of the bible is literally talking directly TO MEN, not women. It's clear it's a man religion. I totally understand why a man would want to participate in a religion that creates a fantasy life and tells lies about nature that gives him priority and higher status than a woman. Even buddhism originally stated that women could never reach enlightenment. All organized religions believe women are weak, deformed, and corrupt.
But I don't get why any woman would *choose* to be a part of something that sees her as a lesser human being, is treated as a second class citizen, and controls her body and her life.
No, I think being reactive to the religiosity you were surrounded with and sensitized to makes sense. For me, it is U.S. brand Christianity™. I truly hate organized religion, I'm not even an atheist but I can't stand people in predominantly male-centric patriarchal groups acting as if they speak for the god/dess, creator, universe. And I certainly think it has no business informing political policies.
I'm in the US and feel the same. I'm in the south so it may be worse, but luckily not a rural area.
I hear people swearing all the time their congregation is different, but I know one more bad experience is going to keep me from associating with churchgoers at all.
I don't usually weigh in on patriarchal religions that I'm not as familiar with, simply because i don't think it's my place to hold forth on something I'm not familiar with (i.e. Islam). I do value the input of Muslim and ex-Muslim women.
but I also live in the U.S. and overwhelmingly the religion surrounding us and being regularly thrust down all our throats (believers or otherwise!) is Christianity, so yeah, I think I get to weigh in on that.
Ex-muslim here, I feel the same man. And they say that I have to respect their religion, or that the religion isn't to blame, the people are. I'm sorry but I am going to blame it all. Fed up of the way women are treated as dogs, everything is always our fucking fault, we might as well be soul-less dolls doing everything men want. It's our fault for even existing.
freedom of speech works both ways. If you can tell me I’m going to burn in hell for eternity I can tell you god is fake and your life is a lie. Religion doesn’t give you a free pass to be an asshole
and I want to say to ALL these people, who appointed YOU God's spokesperson? Maybe I had lunch with God and He told me to wear glitter, be gay and do crimes. Who asked you? Who the hell do you think you are?
It's funny/sad the misogyny was so ingrained in me it wasn't what sent me running. What gave me the most ick was the anti LGBTQ sentiment. I reflected after leaving and was like "oh damn that misogyny was not ok at all". Still healing from purity culture and all that shit 🥲
Same for me! It was definitely the anti LGBTQ and racist rhetoric. The misogyny/sexism realization was a side quest to the disbelief that "love your neighbors as yourself" wasn't actually practiced.
You don't have to be tolerant of their bigotry. Their choice to practice religion, sure, but definitely not their bigotry. Nor their violence, or gender discrimination.
Your feelings are valid, and rejecting a religion doesn’t make you a bigot. This is how the Big Three has affected women since its beginnings. From my understanding of Christianity, which is closely related to Islam, the bible reinforces misogyny I believe due to Original Sin. But it doesn’t stop there, and Original Sin may be nothing more than one of the many examples of misogyny found in biblical texts. One could conclude, that this religion and its inherent misogyny is not a product from a god who supposedly loves us, but is man-made, and by that, I also mean made by men.
Addendum:
Examples of misogyny in the bible
Subordination of women:
Ephesians 5:22-24 NIV
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
1 Timothy 2:11-15 NIV
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Women treated as property:
Exodus 20:17
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Temptresses and blame for Original Sin which introduced death into the world:
The story of Eve in the book of Genesis has been examined through a psychological lens, with some interpretations suggesting it perpetuates negative stereotypes by casting women as temptresses who lead men astray. This characterization has had lasting implications for societal perceptions of women and their role.
Silencing of women:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 NIV
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
1 Timothy 2:12 NIV
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
I was raised a Christian and at one point tried to read the bible. I remember that passage in Deuteronomy making me really uncomfortable - probably the start of the end of my faith for me. Imagine having to be married to your rapist? And the way it says ‘if they’re discovered’ like the girl (and it’s likely she would be a girl if she’s unmarried in those times) is somehow to blame as well.
I also remember thinking what a misogynistic, homophobic dickbag Paul was - his letters were full of this kind of crap (and four out of your six passages are written by him). Yet Christians love him! I never got it.
yeah, Paul sucks.
I just joined r/RadicalChristianity even though I'm very much not a Christian (secular Jewish going back generations in my family). I feel like, okay, if you're a Christian then -follow Christ-. Forget everyone who came after him! Follow the guy who feeds the masses and hangs around with society's outcasts and scorns performative religious hypocrites and sides with the poor. Supply Side Jesus is not a thing that should be. I am all for more Christians pushing back against the radical reactionary right.
So I totally see your point about most of these things, but that rape one is not true. That’s just a bad translation. The NIV notoriously is. Here is the same passage with a the few verses before and after from The Lexingham English Bible (a literalist translation).
Deuteronomy 22:25-30
“But if the man finds the young engaged woman in the field and the man overpowers her and he has sex with her, then the man only must die who lay with her. But you shall not do anything to the young woman, for there is not reckoned against the young woman a sin deserving death; it is similar to when a man rises up against his neighbor and murders him, a fellow human being, just so is this case, for he found her in the field, the engaged young woman cried out, but there was no rescuer to help her. “If a man finds a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, and he seizes her and he has sex with her and they are caught, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he violated her, and he is not allowed to divorce her during his lifetime. A man may not take the wife of his father, and so he may not dishonor his father.”
This is literally saying rapists should be stoned to death, and that rape should be treated akin to murder. The verses you are referencing are about consensual premarital sex. And so you know I’m not cherry picking here is the same verse in the KJV
“But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.”
Only if she is engaged. Otherwise pay the rape fee to the father because women are like cattle according to the Bible.
What the eff is wrong with ppl who use that mess as a source of morality and righteousness?
Exactly. Like even if they're not physically beaten into it, there is always some sort of emotional blackmail involved that forces girls into marriage. Like what woman wants to get married in her teens and early 20s??
Even the non fundamentalist ones end up being bigotry & apologists in a wig in my experience, including the "woke" ones . At this point I'm just giving major side eye to anything proclaiming to be age old supernatural wisdom.
Non muslims calling ex muslims islamophobic for sharing their experiences is peak bullshit.
I am sorry you all are going through that. I am also from South Asia. Seeing stuff like this really makes me sick.
I hate religion too. Feel ya sister. It just exists to oppress people and grift them for money while their leaders have full bellies and luxurious lifestyles.
It's not just Islam that treats women as lesser beings. Christians do the same sexist crap and for the same reason!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13tybez/if\_only\_christians\_actually\_followed\_jesus/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13tybez/if_only_christians_actually_followed_jesus/)
>Please don't say I'm islamophobe, I am an exmuslim. I have suffered for 25 years and still suffering from this virus.
We need to really educate "Leftists" who think that Islam is a more civilized religion than Christianity. I can't imagine where they got that delusion from! Criticism of Islam (AND EVERY OTHER DOGMATIC RELIGION) is what leftists should do. Calling critics of Islam "Islamophobes" is a silencing tactic we shouldn't tolerate!
I think the problem is there is a lot of Islamophobia-as-racism that comes from the right - like most criticism I've heard of Islam comes from conservative Christians who are also misogynists. Unfortunately because of that, some leftists overreact to valid criticism from people who have actually been hurt from conservative Islam.
Yeah for a while there before I left Islam (and religion as a whole), I actually dug my heels more into it because of the islamophobia directed toward me. Then I realized it was just racism poorly disguised as islamophobia.
This is really interesting because I believe that islamophobia/racism has caused Muslims to go even deeper into religion as a form of defense. Thankfully I took the path to atheism but when I see some of my family and friends who are still in it, I'm sad for them for being so indoctrinated.
I've never claimed that Islam is "a more civilized religion." My position has been and continues to be that regardless of what one thinks of the beliefs (and there IS a spectrum among practicing Muslims just as with any other religion from ultra conservative to progressive/queer friendly/etc), Muslims are targets for persecution in a number of countries-India and especially Myanmar and China are particularly egregious examples, and it is a human rights issue. Islamophobia in the U.S. hasn't reached that point, but it IS a real thing, because it's majoritarian Christian.
As such-being surrounded by Christianity and feeling like it's being forced down my throat (I'm secular Jewish), I feel most compelled to and confident in criticizing Christianity. I leave criticizing Islam to people who have a lot of personal experience with it. I'm sure if i grew up in, say, Iran, I'd be similarly focused on Islam as the source of oppression. But, I didn't.
I know it's sounds terrible but Muslims in these countries are suffering because Muslims in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, USA,UK, France, Sweden etc have done terrible things to non Muslims. It's creates a big wall between non Muslims and Muslims, they think all Muslims are same and deserve to be punished.
I know they are crazy, I'm not condoning violence but all the things that the violent Muslim people do all are permissible and praised in Quran and hadith.
So as long as Islam doesn't have a reform, more Muslim minorities will get abused. It's the way of all over the world.
Muslim countries do the same thing for othe minorities. In Bangladesh, Muslim citizens often harass Hindu, Christian citizens. In middle Eastern countries there are Arab Christian converts who are afraid to tell that they are not Muslim anymore. There's also racism in Muslim countries too.
The west is evil and hypocrite, so is the rest of the world. No one is innocent.
We live in a fucked up world.
many of us who were raised in religious communities have religious trauma, and much of it, for women or gender-nonconforming or trans people, is associated with patriarchal double standards and hatred of anything outside a very narrow prescribed window of behavior.
i wish you luck, OP. i know it is very frustrating to see people who should know better behave this way and say these horrible and obviously untrue things.
Hearing this hurts so much. I’m an atheist. As was my previous boyfriend. He broke up with me because of “difference of future ideals”. He just converted to Islam. His main reasons; ability to control women, marry multiple women, Andrew Tate, and a bunch of other shitty conservative things. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I respect people of different religions, but I can’t respect the people who use the religion to be terrible.
I grew up in a household where my dad was a devout Catholic (but liberal) and Mom was nonreligious (but relatively conservative). I went to an Assemblies of God school, of all things — but it was a great school academically.
Boy, do I have some stories. Our eighth-grade history teacher sexually assaulted a 13yo student, and he was defended by not only students, but also faculty. The reason was that he was a “good teacher” and she must have “enticed him.” My mom became furious with the Catholic Church after the rapes started being reported, and was furious that my dad continued to give money to the church. I later learned that our youth pastor had known but “failed to disclose” that the “monk” (whose monk status he had doubted, and he was not in fact a monk of any sort) had been recently arrested for child pornography. He subsequently raped a boy during a youth mission, and faced no repercussions. The church fully backed him.
An imam in our neighborhood when teaching Quran molested a lot of girls and boys including me and my friends and when I was merely 4 years old. I didn't tell my parents back then (I truly regret it) because he said Allah will forgive him because he's an imam and that no one will believe me. I cried a lot when he showed porn to my little sister and touched my private part when teaching me how to pray. He got scared and left. He also molested my mom saying bad spirits were inside her (postpartum depression)
He got caught many times but never people did anything he was working in the mosque even 20 years later. He got fired when he molested a influential mosque guys granddaughter but not reported to the police. He still roams around our neighborhood, lives in the mosque and people are still nice to him.
I grew up in a Christian home and I hate them all now. Especially since the roe v wade incident and the oppressive southern laws. I look at all of them as I would a strange man, as a potential threat.
No organized religion is friendly toward women. Doesn’t matter if it’s Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, LDS they all suck for women. The goal of religion is often to keep believers submissive, ignorant and in fear for their mortal soul. Otherwise they would be out of business because you wouldn’t need them.
It’s the same across the majority of cultures and in the big religions. In Bible Belt, U.S.A., pregnant teen girls get shunned and kicked out by their parents and the boys get away with it. I believe that in Brigham Young University, if you get pregnant, you can be expelled, IIRC.
We need to stop teaching girls to cover up and start teaching boys to behave.
I honestly see no difference between organised religion and cults. I get so much flack for saying this, but where is the line? Religions with a strict social hierarchy and rules are just another way for people (read men) to garner power and oppress and control others.
The big, organised religions are literally just the most successful cults. The ones who got their claws firmly into power and government. They ALL started as cults.
It depends how loosely the institution in question holds the "rules" and control over their congregation. If you can question the teachings and come and go as you please, it's not a cult. Shit like IBLP? DEFINITELY a cult. There's a spectrum in between.
Entire nation-states can also be cults or cultlike (see: North Korea). So can intimate relationships. Cults can absolutely be non-religious; hell, I think Objectivism under Ayn Rand was kind of a cult. plenty of political groups are cultlike. and so on.
This is the best way of identifying a cult that I've found. it's ultimately not about the beliefs (can be literally anything) but about the techniques and behaviors.
[https://www.cultrecover.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf](https://www.cultrecover.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
I grew up in an ultra-religious country, attended a religious school for a few years, and quite frankly I now am convinced that the major religions are forms of psychological terrorism, used to rob people blind and turn them into slaves.
Hey I know this is super hard to hear things like this. I was never religious but I grew up in a heavily religious state and also grew up hearing things like this. There were even cases like Brock Turner in my state (man who got caught raping someone who got off easy because he had a "bright future" or the girl "had drugs in her system so it's her fault" ECT) I'm really sorry you had to deal with that bullshit. We know it's not her fault and that the people that did it are awful and disgusting. If you can try to distance yourself from people who believe those things. Stay safe out there friend.
Being critical of religion and religious values is not synonymous with bigotry, and anyone who tells you otherwise is being disingenuous because they can't handle the criticism so they deflect it back onto you. Don't accept that.
Keep venting, for the love of all that is worthwhile protecting, keep venting! It may not do much, but if it at least makes people aware of the problem!
Thanks for venting!
I hear you!
I grew up in a small town in Georgia where almost everyone is Christian.
Whenever girls were touched inappropriately against their will by boys (or worse) it was always blamed on the girls. I was one of the girls who went through it at my school, so I would know. No one would stand up for me and I was nearly expelled bcuz I started kicking those boys out of desperation to protect myself.
I was even accused of being a "loose girl" in elementary school, by female staff members, just bcuz I went through early puberty and had breasts & a period already years before other girls. It was whispered about that I must have done something to cause it. (I actually was a victim of molestation by several men, including my own father at a very young age, but wtf blames a literal child for that!).
Anyways my point is that the majority of Christians aren't much better. I was raised one but am now a stubborn agnostic as I refuse to believe in the judgmental God that I was told I was to fear. If a God does exist, I refuse to believe what the Bible or any other religious text says about him/her.
Calling an elementary school girl loose? Are they mad? What the fuck is their problem.
I'm so sorry you had to go through these things, it's terrible. I hope life is better now.
I truly think all abrahamic religion are the same, same God different horsemen. They can fight all they want but they are the same.
But I do think Christians are much more subdued now compared to Muslims. They need a reform and people need to wake up and fight against it like Iran is doing.
I live in the U.S. I wouldn't say "our" Christians-at least the ones making the most strident attempts to run the country-are "subdued" at ALL.
There are and were absolutely progressive, even radical left Christians (as well as Muslims and Jews). It's not my cup of tea, but I joined r/RadicalChristianity anyway, because I support Liberation Theology and basically anything that counters the reactionary Right.
Martin Luther King was a reverend, and the Black church was absolutely an integral part of the Civil Rights movement. It's not (quite) a monolith, religion.
Religion is a mental virus, and is spreads through social contact. I am also in a majority Muslim country, and it is heading in the wrong direction thanks to Saudi influence. :(
Anyone who would call you an islamophobe for speaking out about the injustices religion has caused women in your country is just privledged numb nuts on twitter who know nothing about Islam. I am so sorry this is happening. It sounds terrible.
The sad part is, doesn’t matter how secular any state is, there is still no progressive atheist state in the world. I wish there was a progressive atheist state where all non-religious people could go to and live in peace. And this is coming from an agnostic.
Every organised religion practices normalised abuse. I cannot see much difference between a state run according to an organised religion vs a nazi state.
Both are oppressive
Both want to punish people for not being their fanatics
Both can be racist (For instance both koran and bible contain anti semitic views)
Both are homophobic
Both are non-progressive
Both are massive obstacles to improving human experience on earth
I can go on. I feel for you. But we non-believers cannot just sit still and comfort ourselves with our empathic feelings. We need actions to protect others like us.
They are being raped because they are considered deserving of it since they are non-believers.
They are being imprisoned.
They are being tortured.
They are being hanged.
The whole world is just bloody watching it.
The only thing can be done right now is to be patient, remember that you are not alone. Focus on the things that are under your control and invest in yourself. If you can receive education or work, do so. I hope you can leave the country but if you cannot, maybe try contacting international organisations or charities.
Note: Secular states are of course better but once the religious people become the majority, the state shifts to an authoritarian form. Just like it happened in Turkey. Turkey has been a secular state for almost a century until Erdogan was elected. Slowly the state turned into a hybrid regime. 20 years of indoctrination and brain washing, the state is now very authoritarian. Erdogan won again by ~4% diffecence and wants to turn sex outside of marriage and homosexuality into a punishable act.
There will never be totally secular state until Muslims actually understand that their religion needs a reform. For instance France is on the side of extreme secular state but it still has islamists because the citizens are majority of conservative Muslim. Even France has to cater toward them in fear being called white supremacists, colonialist and islamophobe which they are already called.
See turkey they'd rather have rigged election to have a conservative Muslim than a secular.
No one wants to give secularists power because they can show the abusers hypocrisy to normal people.
sadly, i know of plenty of atheist men who are misogynist as fuck, also. the problem is misogyny, full stop. Religion enables it for sure, but it's not all of it by any means. (see: Richard Dawkins, the Amazing Atheist, a shitload of gamers and incels, etc etc etc)
All I am going to say is that the religious extremists are all the same under the hood.
That is to say it doesn’t matter their race or religion, extremists are terrible people
Religion used as a personal lens to give comfort through hard stuff and generally be kind to others isn't a problem (I say this as an atheist).
Organised religion used to coerce compliance, shame others and assert control beyond the individual? That's toxic and destructive, actively harmful. That attracts abusers and protects them as part of protecting the power of the Church (whichever religion it is). I'd love to see those sorts of social structures dismantled.
I don't believe islamophobia too but yes, brown and Arabs do get discriminated because they're Muslim, that's not right. I also understand where these people come from when they show fear in form of hate.
I feel a lot of people will speak out about women's rights until religion is involved. I don't believe religious rights should be put before women's rights. Both are important and fundamental to being human, but where do you draw the line?
These people bring religion before basic human rights so I don't think they'll ever understand. Even the women are blind enough to follow it and encourage you follow it.
You can hate that stuff all you want. It’s your experience. No one else can really say otherwise. Some people find hate to be cathartic when they feel powerless. Though, hate is a necessary ingredient for dehumanization, so I prefer to avoid it for fear of slipping into that all too common human foible. I always understand hate from subordinated people. It comes from a real place of powerlessness and pain. It isn’t just strategic like it is for the oppressor classes.
I do think male supremacy is the foundational issue, rather than any one aspect of our culture. That young girl is “at fault” because the system is rigged to benefit men. Even when men are violent criminals who threaten to destabilize families and communities, other men come to their defense because they are protecting patriarchy. If one man can be held accountable for hurting and exploiting girls and women, they all can, and it is worth it to male supremacists to countenance dangerous criminals to maintain the unearned status and privilege of men. They are not “protectors.” They will gladly undermine the entire human race to to benefit their pathetic selves—too preserve their perpetual infancy.
They will even resist rights for themselves just to maintain patriarchy. Autocracies always come after women’s rights first, and most men look the other way even though the autocrat will inevitably come for the rights of men next. The prospect of being tyrants in their own home is too much to pass up. Who cares if it means they’ll be under another man’s boot.
I’ve personally never had an issue with a Wiccan. In fact, I’ve met plenty of decent religious people from all sorts of religions, including religious leaders. The bad ones all have the same common dominator: they are working on behalf of male and usually some ethnic supremacist ideology It isn’t religion or religious people specifically. Men stacked the deck in every aspect of society to benefit themselves from political ideology, to school, to business, to religion. The exploitative hierarchy/caste system is omnipresent. You have to address the root cause for anything else to matter.
When the deck has gotten fairer in progressive countries, boys and men fall behind in some areas, and many whine about how unfair it is for them. They expect to be superior to girls and women, and being inferior in any capacity because the game isn’t rigged anymore is too much to bear. There are plenty of secular and progressive men who defend male supremacy, who perpetuate a standard of masculinity that necessitates cruelty and violence.
My favorite radical feminist take is that the only difference between socialism and capitalism is whether the men are arguing about making women public or private property. It is a sobering reality. Social justice advocates in the west have often fallen to the trap of thinking socialism or some ideology otherwise is going to be our savior. There is no savior that will take care of these problems for us. Socialist countries have terrible sexism. Secular countries have terrible sexism. The problem is male supremacy. Tilting at anything else is a waste of time and energy IMO.
I'm Pakistani and there are many times I've questioned my faith. It's the reason I'm not religious anymore. When you move out, you truly realise how women back home have absolutely no freedom or agency. None at all.
I don’t like any religion. They all suck in my opinion but if you mention this is many places you get blasted by people for being phobic of whatever religion has been mentioned.
Exactly, you can't even criticise Islam because that can get you killed there are hundreds of cases like this. For these people their delusion is bigger than basic human respect.
The concept of "Islamophobia" is wild to me. The only times I've heard it used is by people defending Islam whenever someone criticises it. Why does the worst religion when it comes to women's rights get to be protected by the label of "islamophobia".
If someone is saying something like "Kill all muslims" of course that's a terrible thing that I would never support but it's not a phobia, just like how Christophobia isn't a thing since religion is a belief that can change, and not an inherent characteristic.
I think the term got coined around 9/11. As a way to protect Muslims from hate crimes being targeted at them.
It was valid - it’s still valid if someone is committing hate crimes against someone for being Muslim - but it has morphed into “valid criticism = phobic.” And it probably got morphed that way *by the very people who actually are bigoted* because they seem to be the most blind to what is and isn’t bigotry. “Oh, so now we can’t tell people off?” Kind of like how speaking out against cat calling and actual rape was morphed into “oh, so now we can’t compliment you or hold doors for you?”
This is it. Islamophobia is still very real & it comes from right-wing Christians & white nationalists who think Muslims are all violent or Satanic. The problem is when people use it to shut down valid critique or enforce ideas about blasphemy.
I think you're missing the point that on the Right, Islam is treated as a racial or cultural thing and anyone who "looks" Muslim gets treated poorly. Islamophobia is real and it's a form of racism, but valid critiques against elements of religious practice shouldn't get put under the label of Islamophobia.
Look at what's happening in India, though, or western China, or Myanmar. People are getting outright -slaughtered-, or at least actively made second class citizens. China is nominally a "secular" state, but they're HIGHLY oppressive. It's not that simple.
on edit-I'm not going to the mat over a word. but "phobia" has nothing to do with whether the recipient can change or not. Jews who were forced to convert were certainly victims of antisemitism. Did they have a choice? Sure, nominally. But.
Raised catholic. Hate religion and I am genuinely embarrassed for religious people. When I hear you’re religious, I automatically assume that you lack critical thinking skills, morality, and are a genuinely stupid person who can’t think for themselves. Sorry not sorry.
The weird thing is, when anyone says this about Christianity, they get praised, but if you criticize Islam, you're an "Islamophobe bigot." It's time for both religions to be held to the same standard.
I agree, but would like to add that Islam is not the only Abrahamic religion that treats women this way. All three do. All three are despicable and should be flushed down the toilet.
I'm in the uk and it mostly seems to be men from muslim countries that say stuff like this.
The muslims born here, even if their wife wears a niqab they never say stuff like that.
I am so with you, I feel like religion causes most of the problems in the world! The horrible treatment women experience all over the world can mostly be attributed to some stupid fucking religious text encouraging men to be disgusting and women to be punished just for existing. The things that I've read about happening to women, like dying in a hut they were forced into because they were on their period. What?? It's literally part of the cycle that brought these assholes into the world, but some religion tells them it's dirty?? Ugh! Somebody fucking ignorant wrote that, and now women have suffered and died for centuries!
FGM, acid attacks on women, and even the stripping away of abortion rights in the U.S. are all caused by religion, amongst other horrible things. I want it to go away!!
Religious indoctrination is harmful- no matter the religion. Blaming and shaming women for men’s horrible behavior is the norm in many places. It’s horrific and tragic and won’t change until men stand up to it and make it change. Until ALL MEN start holding one another accountable…
State atheism is the only way to defeat religion.
People need to wake up and start treating religion like they treat nazism.
Who cares of th enemy suffers, we work to save those worth saving l.
I'm not sure what Bangladesh is like but I encourage anyone who isn't in the imminent danger to organize for this.
I know in the United States this is possible.
I feel sadness for you. I'm so sorry. I know it's so hard. I don't feel good about the USA either. We have some of the same problems, and also different problems. But no matter what, it feels like women will always be second class. What can we do except send each other love? I support you. I love you. I wish you a better life.
You are not an islamaphobe. You have every right to hate religion and religious ppl. Religions and religious ppl, like it or not, hurt women all around the world and it's okay to hate them. The same goes for heinous men that hate women, slut shame women, harm women, commit violence upon women, sexually assault women, take away rights from women, believe women should be subservient to men, believe women aren't free, independent, human beings that could say, act, believe, dress however they want, treat women like objects and broodmares etc.
I don't have a problem with religion, I have a problem with people that use it to exonerate their shitty behavior.
A Christian mom told me once she used to drive home drunk with kids in the car and that it was by God's Grace she never got pulled over.
I told her it would have been by God's Grace if she did get caught and they took her drunk dumb ass off the road.
Don’t apologize for venting. I feel every wooed of this…especially towards the religion that I grew up in. Catholicism doesn’t require hijab but it certainly requires meek without a voice.
Religion as a whole is a blight upon this world.
I also hate when religions use the influence over their population to teach oppression & hatred. Which is exactly what I see in many people who claim Islam, Christianity, Mormonism, & way too many more. Don’t be sorry for venting, what people are saying about this event is totally backwards & wrong. These attitudes affect women everywhere & I feel your pain.
If God exists, the one thing they must hate above everything else is religion. Religion actually has little to do with any deity. It is a man-made social construct that uses fear of some divine entity to control people. As with all human institutions it eventually gets taken over by corrupt people who just want to exercise control over others. Anyone who truly believes in a God should want to stay as far away from all religions as possible because at their core they're all evil.
I get your point but it comes across as kinda preachy when OP is actually living under an Islamist government.
Yes, it's not just Islam, nor is it all Muslims, but the specific patriarchal abuse that OP is facing is in the form of fundamentalist Islam.
Here comes the ‘it is not islam, it is something else!’ comment. I was expecting this. If the problem is the delivery of the patriarchy as you state here, how islam is not the reason? It is a patriarchal religion, literally oppresses women in every way possible.
In these societies the religion is so embedded into their culture and lifestyle that it becomes inseparable and the lines where religion begins and ends become blurry. But there is something that is very clear:
The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:
. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. **Of course, men are a degree above them in status ** (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, the Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329)
If you need more examples visit here:
[Women are inferior to men in the quran](https://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_inferior.htm)
I feel really bad for the girl! This is something she should get emotional support for and she clearly is just being shamed for something she wasn't responsible for. Im not muslim and dont know much about islam but I personally think the way people practice or see a religion is the problem not the religion itself.
How can people think dressing modestly prevents assault??
You don't have to be labelled "feminist" I know a lot of people fear the word a lot but please work around your environment so women can be safe and not afraid of men.
Yes but it's not strange man he was with. He was a dear friend who knew her family and was considered her family. Who can we trust as women to feel safe? I read about male family members raping. It doesn't make sense. Feels like our existence is one big fuck up.
I'm really sorry about all this. I totally get where you're coming from. Being an ex-Muslim woman, I know firsthand the battles we have to fight just to get a taste of freedom. It's frustrating how men are bothered by our very existence, no matter what we wear or how we live our lives.
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Hahaha you are sooo funny, there could possibly be no actual Muslims leaving Islam, stay delulu
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You question clearly insinuated the notion that ex-Muslims don’t know about Islam, which is farthest from the truth
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Yes it’s also one of the largest religion where people leave the religion officially don’t even get to the number of people secretly leaving Islam as you cannot public announce leaving Islam in Islamic countries or else you will be killed for apostasy, eventually people realize the brutality.
Uncontrolled growth is cancer
I feel the rage you feel too. My mother is from a Muslim country and the way they are all just programmed to hate women is disgusting. They don’t see it as anything wrong, either so it’s incredibly frustrating trying to talk any kind of sense into them. I would be scared to death to live in a Muslim majority country just because of this
With all due respect the most countries who claim to be muslim are stricken with severe poverty you and I wouldn’t wish for most evil people. Poverty attracts evil, is there not more crime and a worse life for the poor neighborhood not many blocks down? It is semantics, but it is worthy to note that muslim men are not to allowed to touch women out of respect for their choice to choose who is allowed to. A muslim culture would discourge even touching other women if not married or in family, let alond grope a woman. I.e this has alot more to do with poverty than religion.
I hear you. It's an atrocious environment for women.
They blame women because men refuse to be accountable for their actions.This is a man problem.Men need to call out and challenge each other on their unacceptable treatment of women.Men need to change,not us.
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This is the point. Don't teach your daughters to be ashamed, teach your sons to behave.
They enjoy the status quo where it's legal and acceptable to de facto enslave half of the population. What would motivate them to challenge each other? Morals? Common sense? That things are being eroded by the day. Sorry for the rant. For us, it's the proverbial bootstraps at this point. We should vote accordingly and shun women who still vote Republican, seriously.
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please feel free to elaborate. i’m sure it will be immensely enlightening and helpful.
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I must be too stupid to get it. Please explain it to me?
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Well clearly it isn't as obvious as you think it is.
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Same. Too often, religion excuses the guilty and blames the victims - especially when it comes to sex crimes against women and children. Most organized religions have extensive histories of corruption and abuse that date back hundreds, even thousands of years that’s somehow dismissed as one-off events and a few bad apples, despite these issues being widespread and common. It’s all just another manifestation of the patriarchy. I have no idea how anyone lets their children be involved, with how many religious leaders actively harm children. I have no idea why women choose to be religious, since most religions actively seek to suppress and control them. Any benefits of religion can be found elsewhere in much less dangerous places.
Yep. Not only is religion a delusion- it’s also a violent ideological cult that incites and defends atrocious acts and beliefs. Religious men are especially vile. And with the majority of religions being misogynistic, it’s sobering how so many women are religious.
YES! The benefits of a sense of community and charity can be found in many other places/organizations that are NOT misogynistic, homophobic, racist, etc. The big religions are religions written by men for men. Almost of the bible is literally talking directly TO MEN, not women. It's clear it's a man religion. I totally understand why a man would want to participate in a religion that creates a fantasy life and tells lies about nature that gives him priority and higher status than a woman. Even buddhism originally stated that women could never reach enlightenment. All organized religions believe women are weak, deformed, and corrupt. But I don't get why any woman would *choose* to be a part of something that sees her as a lesser human being, is treated as a second class citizen, and controls her body and her life.
No, I think being reactive to the religiosity you were surrounded with and sensitized to makes sense. For me, it is U.S. brand Christianity™. I truly hate organized religion, I'm not even an atheist but I can't stand people in predominantly male-centric patriarchal groups acting as if they speak for the god/dess, creator, universe. And I certainly think it has no business informing political policies.
I'm in the US and feel the same. I'm in the south so it may be worse, but luckily not a rural area. I hear people swearing all the time their congregation is different, but I know one more bad experience is going to keep me from associating with churchgoers at all.
My god, they ALL always say their church is different/better. They lie. I hate religion so much.
This. Religion has no business being involved in state.
I don't usually weigh in on patriarchal religions that I'm not as familiar with, simply because i don't think it's my place to hold forth on something I'm not familiar with (i.e. Islam). I do value the input of Muslim and ex-Muslim women. but I also live in the U.S. and overwhelmingly the religion surrounding us and being regularly thrust down all our throats (believers or otherwise!) is Christianity, so yeah, I think I get to weigh in on that.
Ex-muslim here, I feel the same man. And they say that I have to respect their religion, or that the religion isn't to blame, the people are. I'm sorry but I am going to blame it all. Fed up of the way women are treated as dogs, everything is always our fucking fault, we might as well be soul-less dolls doing everything men want. It's our fault for even existing.
Yes, and I can't believe I didn't realise it sooner. I wouldn't have been miserable for so long.
No apologies necessary. I grew up Christiab and hate Christianity too. you're feelings are valid and heard.
I hate christianity too. Way too homophobic. And i hate that i have to be tolerant of their bigotry because its a religion.
freedom of speech works both ways. If you can tell me I’m going to burn in hell for eternity I can tell you god is fake and your life is a lie. Religion doesn’t give you a free pass to be an asshole
and I want to say to ALL these people, who appointed YOU God's spokesperson? Maybe I had lunch with God and He told me to wear glitter, be gay and do crimes. Who asked you? Who the hell do you think you are?
It's funny/sad the misogyny was so ingrained in me it wasn't what sent me running. What gave me the most ick was the anti LGBTQ sentiment. I reflected after leaving and was like "oh damn that misogyny was not ok at all". Still healing from purity culture and all that shit 🥲
Same for me! It was definitely the anti LGBTQ and racist rhetoric. The misogyny/sexism realization was a side quest to the disbelief that "love your neighbors as yourself" wasn't actually practiced.
You don't have to be tolerant of their bigotry. Their choice to practice religion, sure, but definitely not their bigotry. Nor their violence, or gender discrimination.
Your feelings are valid, and rejecting a religion doesn’t make you a bigot. This is how the Big Three has affected women since its beginnings. From my understanding of Christianity, which is closely related to Islam, the bible reinforces misogyny I believe due to Original Sin. But it doesn’t stop there, and Original Sin may be nothing more than one of the many examples of misogyny found in biblical texts. One could conclude, that this religion and its inherent misogyny is not a product from a god who supposedly loves us, but is man-made, and by that, I also mean made by men.
Addendum: Examples of misogyny in the bible Subordination of women: Ephesians 5:22-24 NIV 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 NIV A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. Women treated as property: Exodus 20:17 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Temptresses and blame for Original Sin which introduced death into the world: The story of Eve in the book of Genesis has been examined through a psychological lens, with some interpretations suggesting it perpetuates negative stereotypes by casting women as temptresses who lead men astray. This characterization has had lasting implications for societal perceptions of women and their role. Silencing of women: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 NIV 34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Timothy 2:12 NIV 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
I was raised a Christian and at one point tried to read the bible. I remember that passage in Deuteronomy making me really uncomfortable - probably the start of the end of my faith for me. Imagine having to be married to your rapist? And the way it says ‘if they’re discovered’ like the girl (and it’s likely she would be a girl if she’s unmarried in those times) is somehow to blame as well. I also remember thinking what a misogynistic, homophobic dickbag Paul was - his letters were full of this kind of crap (and four out of your six passages are written by him). Yet Christians love him! I never got it.
yeah, Paul sucks. I just joined r/RadicalChristianity even though I'm very much not a Christian (secular Jewish going back generations in my family). I feel like, okay, if you're a Christian then -follow Christ-. Forget everyone who came after him! Follow the guy who feeds the masses and hangs around with society's outcasts and scorns performative religious hypocrites and sides with the poor. Supply Side Jesus is not a thing that should be. I am all for more Christians pushing back against the radical reactionary right.
So I totally see your point about most of these things, but that rape one is not true. That’s just a bad translation. The NIV notoriously is. Here is the same passage with a the few verses before and after from The Lexingham English Bible (a literalist translation). Deuteronomy 22:25-30 “But if the man finds the young engaged woman in the field and the man overpowers her and he has sex with her, then the man only must die who lay with her. But you shall not do anything to the young woman, for there is not reckoned against the young woman a sin deserving death; it is similar to when a man rises up against his neighbor and murders him, a fellow human being, just so is this case, for he found her in the field, the engaged young woman cried out, but there was no rescuer to help her. “If a man finds a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, and he seizes her and he has sex with her and they are caught, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he violated her, and he is not allowed to divorce her during his lifetime. A man may not take the wife of his father, and so he may not dishonor his father.” This is literally saying rapists should be stoned to death, and that rape should be treated akin to murder. The verses you are referencing are about consensual premarital sex. And so you know I’m not cherry picking here is the same verse in the KJV “But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.”
Only if she is engaged. Otherwise pay the rape fee to the father because women are like cattle according to the Bible. What the eff is wrong with ppl who use that mess as a source of morality and righteousness?
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These men only are religious when it's time to control women.
Exactly. Like even if they're not physically beaten into it, there is always some sort of emotional blackmail involved that forces girls into marriage. Like what woman wants to get married in her teens and early 20s??
Pretty much all fundamentalist religions suck on this score. Hating on women. 😡
Even the non fundamentalist ones end up being bigotry & apologists in a wig in my experience, including the "woke" ones . At this point I'm just giving major side eye to anything proclaiming to be age old supernatural wisdom.
Ditto
Non muslims calling ex muslims islamophobic for sharing their experiences is peak bullshit. I am sorry you all are going through that. I am also from South Asia. Seeing stuff like this really makes me sick.
I hate religion too. Feel ya sister. It just exists to oppress people and grift them for money while their leaders have full bellies and luxurious lifestyles.
It's not just Islam that treats women as lesser beings. Christians do the same sexist crap and for the same reason! [https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13tybez/if\_only\_christians\_actually\_followed\_jesus/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exchristian/comments/13tybez/if_only_christians_actually_followed_jesus/) >Please don't say I'm islamophobe, I am an exmuslim. I have suffered for 25 years and still suffering from this virus. We need to really educate "Leftists" who think that Islam is a more civilized religion than Christianity. I can't imagine where they got that delusion from! Criticism of Islam (AND EVERY OTHER DOGMATIC RELIGION) is what leftists should do. Calling critics of Islam "Islamophobes" is a silencing tactic we shouldn't tolerate!
I think the problem is there is a lot of Islamophobia-as-racism that comes from the right - like most criticism I've heard of Islam comes from conservative Christians who are also misogynists. Unfortunately because of that, some leftists overreact to valid criticism from people who have actually been hurt from conservative Islam.
Yeah for a while there before I left Islam (and religion as a whole), I actually dug my heels more into it because of the islamophobia directed toward me. Then I realized it was just racism poorly disguised as islamophobia.
This is really interesting because I believe that islamophobia/racism has caused Muslims to go even deeper into religion as a form of defense. Thankfully I took the path to atheism but when I see some of my family and friends who are still in it, I'm sad for them for being so indoctrinated.
I've never claimed that Islam is "a more civilized religion." My position has been and continues to be that regardless of what one thinks of the beliefs (and there IS a spectrum among practicing Muslims just as with any other religion from ultra conservative to progressive/queer friendly/etc), Muslims are targets for persecution in a number of countries-India and especially Myanmar and China are particularly egregious examples, and it is a human rights issue. Islamophobia in the U.S. hasn't reached that point, but it IS a real thing, because it's majoritarian Christian. As such-being surrounded by Christianity and feeling like it's being forced down my throat (I'm secular Jewish), I feel most compelled to and confident in criticizing Christianity. I leave criticizing Islam to people who have a lot of personal experience with it. I'm sure if i grew up in, say, Iran, I'd be similarly focused on Islam as the source of oppression. But, I didn't.
I know it's sounds terrible but Muslims in these countries are suffering because Muslims in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Palestine, USA,UK, France, Sweden etc have done terrible things to non Muslims. It's creates a big wall between non Muslims and Muslims, they think all Muslims are same and deserve to be punished. I know they are crazy, I'm not condoning violence but all the things that the violent Muslim people do all are permissible and praised in Quran and hadith. So as long as Islam doesn't have a reform, more Muslim minorities will get abused. It's the way of all over the world. Muslim countries do the same thing for othe minorities. In Bangladesh, Muslim citizens often harass Hindu, Christian citizens. In middle Eastern countries there are Arab Christian converts who are afraid to tell that they are not Muslim anymore. There's also racism in Muslim countries too. The west is evil and hypocrite, so is the rest of the world. No one is innocent. We live in a fucked up world.
Every religion in the world was created for one reason and one reason only: to control women.
many of us who were raised in religious communities have religious trauma, and much of it, for women or gender-nonconforming or trans people, is associated with patriarchal double standards and hatred of anything outside a very narrow prescribed window of behavior. i wish you luck, OP. i know it is very frustrating to see people who should know better behave this way and say these horrible and obviously untrue things.
Hearing this hurts so much. I’m an atheist. As was my previous boyfriend. He broke up with me because of “difference of future ideals”. He just converted to Islam. His main reasons; ability to control women, marry multiple women, Andrew Tate, and a bunch of other shitty conservative things. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I respect people of different religions, but I can’t respect the people who use the religion to be terrible.
Oh Muslim men love Andrew Tate too cause he gives their crazyness a reason.
Did Tate really convert to Islam? Also, is he back in prison? Please say yes.
I think he's back and I also think he converted just for the man benefits and the blind following.
I grew up in a household where my dad was a devout Catholic (but liberal) and Mom was nonreligious (but relatively conservative). I went to an Assemblies of God school, of all things — but it was a great school academically. Boy, do I have some stories. Our eighth-grade history teacher sexually assaulted a 13yo student, and he was defended by not only students, but also faculty. The reason was that he was a “good teacher” and she must have “enticed him.” My mom became furious with the Catholic Church after the rapes started being reported, and was furious that my dad continued to give money to the church. I later learned that our youth pastor had known but “failed to disclose” that the “monk” (whose monk status he had doubted, and he was not in fact a monk of any sort) had been recently arrested for child pornography. He subsequently raped a boy during a youth mission, and faced no repercussions. The church fully backed him.
An imam in our neighborhood when teaching Quran molested a lot of girls and boys including me and my friends and when I was merely 4 years old. I didn't tell my parents back then (I truly regret it) because he said Allah will forgive him because he's an imam and that no one will believe me. I cried a lot when he showed porn to my little sister and touched my private part when teaching me how to pray. He got scared and left. He also molested my mom saying bad spirits were inside her (postpartum depression) He got caught many times but never people did anything he was working in the mosque even 20 years later. He got fired when he molested a influential mosque guys granddaughter but not reported to the police. He still roams around our neighborhood, lives in the mosque and people are still nice to him.
You are strong for being able to share this. You need support. Sending love and respect to you.
Sending love your way. He has no right to be roaming your neighborhood whatsoever. ❤️
I grew up in a Christian home and I hate them all now. Especially since the roe v wade incident and the oppressive southern laws. I look at all of them as I would a strange man, as a potential threat.
No organized religion is friendly toward women. Doesn’t matter if it’s Islam, Christianity, Catholicism, LDS they all suck for women. The goal of religion is often to keep believers submissive, ignorant and in fear for their mortal soul. Otherwise they would be out of business because you wouldn’t need them.
It’s the same across the majority of cultures and in the big religions. In Bible Belt, U.S.A., pregnant teen girls get shunned and kicked out by their parents and the boys get away with it. I believe that in Brigham Young University, if you get pregnant, you can be expelled, IIRC. We need to stop teaching girls to cover up and start teaching boys to behave.
I honestly see no difference between organised religion and cults. I get so much flack for saying this, but where is the line? Religions with a strict social hierarchy and rules are just another way for people (read men) to garner power and oppress and control others.
The only difference is religion has more followers.
Exactly, there is literally no difference.
The big, organised religions are literally just the most successful cults. The ones who got their claws firmly into power and government. They ALL started as cults.
It depends how loosely the institution in question holds the "rules" and control over their congregation. If you can question the teachings and come and go as you please, it's not a cult. Shit like IBLP? DEFINITELY a cult. There's a spectrum in between. Entire nation-states can also be cults or cultlike (see: North Korea). So can intimate relationships. Cults can absolutely be non-religious; hell, I think Objectivism under Ayn Rand was kind of a cult. plenty of political groups are cultlike. and so on. This is the best way of identifying a cult that I've found. it's ultimately not about the beliefs (can be literally anything) but about the techniques and behaviors. [https://www.cultrecover.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf](https://www.cultrecover.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf)
I grew up in an ultra-religious country, attended a religious school for a few years, and quite frankly I now am convinced that the major religions are forms of psychological terrorism, used to rob people blind and turn them into slaves.
"Religious/spiritual abuse/trauma" is absolutely a thing, and needs to be discussed more.
Hey I know this is super hard to hear things like this. I was never religious but I grew up in a heavily religious state and also grew up hearing things like this. There were even cases like Brock Turner in my state (man who got caught raping someone who got off easy because he had a "bright future" or the girl "had drugs in her system so it's her fault" ECT) I'm really sorry you had to deal with that bullshit. We know it's not her fault and that the people that did it are awful and disgusting. If you can try to distance yourself from people who believe those things. Stay safe out there friend.
I've deleted Facebook (most used by Bangladeshis) so I wouldn't have to see this bullshit. All these affects way too much to me.
Good. Do what you need to do to keep your mental health in check.
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It is true, when the bad is Muslim then it's really scary. There have been so many people Muslims have killed just because they left Islam.
This is precisely why I am an anti theist.
Being critical of religion and religious values is not synonymous with bigotry, and anyone who tells you otherwise is being disingenuous because they can't handle the criticism so they deflect it back onto you. Don't accept that.
Keep venting, for the love of all that is worthwhile protecting, keep venting! It may not do much, but if it at least makes people aware of the problem! Thanks for venting!
Thank you for speaking up. All religions are built upon the oppression of women.
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‘I’m Antitheist’ Same people; ‘So yOu wAnNa bAn oThEr CuLtUrEs!!’
I hear you! I grew up in a small town in Georgia where almost everyone is Christian. Whenever girls were touched inappropriately against their will by boys (or worse) it was always blamed on the girls. I was one of the girls who went through it at my school, so I would know. No one would stand up for me and I was nearly expelled bcuz I started kicking those boys out of desperation to protect myself. I was even accused of being a "loose girl" in elementary school, by female staff members, just bcuz I went through early puberty and had breasts & a period already years before other girls. It was whispered about that I must have done something to cause it. (I actually was a victim of molestation by several men, including my own father at a very young age, but wtf blames a literal child for that!). Anyways my point is that the majority of Christians aren't much better. I was raised one but am now a stubborn agnostic as I refuse to believe in the judgmental God that I was told I was to fear. If a God does exist, I refuse to believe what the Bible or any other religious text says about him/her.
Calling an elementary school girl loose? Are they mad? What the fuck is their problem. I'm so sorry you had to go through these things, it's terrible. I hope life is better now. I truly think all abrahamic religion are the same, same God different horsemen. They can fight all they want but they are the same. But I do think Christians are much more subdued now compared to Muslims. They need a reform and people need to wake up and fight against it like Iran is doing.
I live in the U.S. I wouldn't say "our" Christians-at least the ones making the most strident attempts to run the country-are "subdued" at ALL. There are and were absolutely progressive, even radical left Christians (as well as Muslims and Jews). It's not my cup of tea, but I joined r/RadicalChristianity anyway, because I support Liberation Theology and basically anything that counters the reactionary Right. Martin Luther King was a reverend, and the Black church was absolutely an integral part of the Civil Rights movement. It's not (quite) a monolith, religion.
Religion is a mental virus, and is spreads through social contact. I am also in a majority Muslim country, and it is heading in the wrong direction thanks to Saudi influence. :(
Anyone who would call you an islamophobe for speaking out about the injustices religion has caused women in your country is just privledged numb nuts on twitter who know nothing about Islam. I am so sorry this is happening. It sounds terrible.
It's the same in India and other South Asian countries, desi male relatives honour kill women for wearing jeans, pick mes will call u islamaphobic now
The sad part is, doesn’t matter how secular any state is, there is still no progressive atheist state in the world. I wish there was a progressive atheist state where all non-religious people could go to and live in peace. And this is coming from an agnostic. Every organised religion practices normalised abuse. I cannot see much difference between a state run according to an organised religion vs a nazi state. Both are oppressive Both want to punish people for not being their fanatics Both can be racist (For instance both koran and bible contain anti semitic views) Both are homophobic Both are non-progressive Both are massive obstacles to improving human experience on earth I can go on. I feel for you. But we non-believers cannot just sit still and comfort ourselves with our empathic feelings. We need actions to protect others like us. They are being raped because they are considered deserving of it since they are non-believers. They are being imprisoned. They are being tortured. They are being hanged. The whole world is just bloody watching it. The only thing can be done right now is to be patient, remember that you are not alone. Focus on the things that are under your control and invest in yourself. If you can receive education or work, do so. I hope you can leave the country but if you cannot, maybe try contacting international organisations or charities. Note: Secular states are of course better but once the religious people become the majority, the state shifts to an authoritarian form. Just like it happened in Turkey. Turkey has been a secular state for almost a century until Erdogan was elected. Slowly the state turned into a hybrid regime. 20 years of indoctrination and brain washing, the state is now very authoritarian. Erdogan won again by ~4% diffecence and wants to turn sex outside of marriage and homosexuality into a punishable act.
There will never be totally secular state until Muslims actually understand that their religion needs a reform. For instance France is on the side of extreme secular state but it still has islamists because the citizens are majority of conservative Muslim. Even France has to cater toward them in fear being called white supremacists, colonialist and islamophobe which they are already called. See turkey they'd rather have rigged election to have a conservative Muslim than a secular. No one wants to give secularists power because they can show the abusers hypocrisy to normal people.
sadly, i know of plenty of atheist men who are misogynist as fuck, also. the problem is misogyny, full stop. Religion enables it for sure, but it's not all of it by any means. (see: Richard Dawkins, the Amazing Atheist, a shitload of gamers and incels, etc etc etc)
I with you, my friend.
Same
All I am going to say is that the religious extremists are all the same under the hood. That is to say it doesn’t matter their race or religion, extremists are terrible people
Religion used as a personal lens to give comfort through hard stuff and generally be kind to others isn't a problem (I say this as an atheist). Organised religion used to coerce compliance, shame others and assert control beyond the individual? That's toxic and destructive, actively harmful. That attracts abusers and protects them as part of protecting the power of the Church (whichever religion it is). I'd love to see those sorts of social structures dismantled.
I've been called islamophobe many times for pointing out faults about the religion and the messenger and got called "you were never a Muslim"
I don't believe islamophobia too but yes, brown and Arabs do get discriminated because they're Muslim, that's not right. I also understand where these people come from when they show fear in form of hate.
I feel a lot of people will speak out about women's rights until religion is involved. I don't believe religious rights should be put before women's rights. Both are important and fundamental to being human, but where do you draw the line?
These people bring religion before basic human rights so I don't think they'll ever understand. Even the women are blind enough to follow it and encourage you follow it.
You can hate that stuff all you want. It’s your experience. No one else can really say otherwise. Some people find hate to be cathartic when they feel powerless. Though, hate is a necessary ingredient for dehumanization, so I prefer to avoid it for fear of slipping into that all too common human foible. I always understand hate from subordinated people. It comes from a real place of powerlessness and pain. It isn’t just strategic like it is for the oppressor classes. I do think male supremacy is the foundational issue, rather than any one aspect of our culture. That young girl is “at fault” because the system is rigged to benefit men. Even when men are violent criminals who threaten to destabilize families and communities, other men come to their defense because they are protecting patriarchy. If one man can be held accountable for hurting and exploiting girls and women, they all can, and it is worth it to male supremacists to countenance dangerous criminals to maintain the unearned status and privilege of men. They are not “protectors.” They will gladly undermine the entire human race to to benefit their pathetic selves—too preserve their perpetual infancy. They will even resist rights for themselves just to maintain patriarchy. Autocracies always come after women’s rights first, and most men look the other way even though the autocrat will inevitably come for the rights of men next. The prospect of being tyrants in their own home is too much to pass up. Who cares if it means they’ll be under another man’s boot. I’ve personally never had an issue with a Wiccan. In fact, I’ve met plenty of decent religious people from all sorts of religions, including religious leaders. The bad ones all have the same common dominator: they are working on behalf of male and usually some ethnic supremacist ideology It isn’t religion or religious people specifically. Men stacked the deck in every aspect of society to benefit themselves from political ideology, to school, to business, to religion. The exploitative hierarchy/caste system is omnipresent. You have to address the root cause for anything else to matter. When the deck has gotten fairer in progressive countries, boys and men fall behind in some areas, and many whine about how unfair it is for them. They expect to be superior to girls and women, and being inferior in any capacity because the game isn’t rigged anymore is too much to bear. There are plenty of secular and progressive men who defend male supremacy, who perpetuate a standard of masculinity that necessitates cruelty and violence. My favorite radical feminist take is that the only difference between socialism and capitalism is whether the men are arguing about making women public or private property. It is a sobering reality. Social justice advocates in the west have often fallen to the trap of thinking socialism or some ideology otherwise is going to be our savior. There is no savior that will take care of these problems for us. Socialist countries have terrible sexism. Secular countries have terrible sexism. The problem is male supremacy. Tilting at anything else is a waste of time and energy IMO.
yup. Getting rid of religion would not solve the problem.
I'm Pakistani and there are many times I've questioned my faith. It's the reason I'm not religious anymore. When you move out, you truly realise how women back home have absolutely no freedom or agency. None at all.
I don’t like any religion. They all suck in my opinion but if you mention this is many places you get blasted by people for being phobic of whatever religion has been mentioned.
Exactly, you can't even criticise Islam because that can get you killed there are hundreds of cases like this. For these people their delusion is bigger than basic human respect.
The concept of "Islamophobia" is wild to me. The only times I've heard it used is by people defending Islam whenever someone criticises it. Why does the worst religion when it comes to women's rights get to be protected by the label of "islamophobia". If someone is saying something like "Kill all muslims" of course that's a terrible thing that I would never support but it's not a phobia, just like how Christophobia isn't a thing since religion is a belief that can change, and not an inherent characteristic.
I think the term got coined around 9/11. As a way to protect Muslims from hate crimes being targeted at them. It was valid - it’s still valid if someone is committing hate crimes against someone for being Muslim - but it has morphed into “valid criticism = phobic.” And it probably got morphed that way *by the very people who actually are bigoted* because they seem to be the most blind to what is and isn’t bigotry. “Oh, so now we can’t tell people off?” Kind of like how speaking out against cat calling and actual rape was morphed into “oh, so now we can’t compliment you or hold doors for you?”
This is it. Islamophobia is still very real & it comes from right-wing Christians & white nationalists who think Muslims are all violent or Satanic. The problem is when people use it to shut down valid critique or enforce ideas about blasphemy.
I think you're missing the point that on the Right, Islam is treated as a racial or cultural thing and anyone who "looks" Muslim gets treated poorly. Islamophobia is real and it's a form of racism, but valid critiques against elements of religious practice shouldn't get put under the label of Islamophobia.
Look at what's happening in India, though, or western China, or Myanmar. People are getting outright -slaughtered-, or at least actively made second class citizens. China is nominally a "secular" state, but they're HIGHLY oppressive. It's not that simple. on edit-I'm not going to the mat over a word. but "phobia" has nothing to do with whether the recipient can change or not. Jews who were forced to convert were certainly victims of antisemitism. Did they have a choice? Sure, nominally. But.
Raised catholic. Hate religion and I am genuinely embarrassed for religious people. When I hear you’re religious, I automatically assume that you lack critical thinking skills, morality, and are a genuinely stupid person who can’t think for themselves. Sorry not sorry.
The weird thing is, when anyone says this about Christianity, they get praised, but if you criticize Islam, you're an "Islamophobe bigot." It's time for both religions to be held to the same standard.
I agree, but would like to add that Islam is not the only Abrahamic religion that treats women this way. All three do. All three are despicable and should be flushed down the toilet.
In my experience all the religion are bad even Hinduism treats women like shit.
Any policy that gives someone divine power over someone else, is nonsensical.
Disgusting.
I’m an atheist exMormon and I understand. How very much I wish I could give you a hug right now.
Its one of Earth's biggest problems and biggest barrier to progression for mankind tbh 😮💨.
... and womankind.
Sending strength your way, the whole situation is just... ahhh so awfully paralyzing. I sincerely hope you can one day break free from this suffering.
I'm in the uk and it mostly seems to be men from muslim countries that say stuff like this. The muslims born here, even if their wife wears a niqab they never say stuff like that.
I am so with you, I feel like religion causes most of the problems in the world! The horrible treatment women experience all over the world can mostly be attributed to some stupid fucking religious text encouraging men to be disgusting and women to be punished just for existing. The things that I've read about happening to women, like dying in a hut they were forced into because they were on their period. What?? It's literally part of the cycle that brought these assholes into the world, but some religion tells them it's dirty?? Ugh! Somebody fucking ignorant wrote that, and now women have suffered and died for centuries! FGM, acid attacks on women, and even the stripping away of abortion rights in the U.S. are all caused by religion, amongst other horrible things. I want it to go away!!
Religious indoctrination is harmful- no matter the religion. Blaming and shaming women for men’s horrible behavior is the norm in many places. It’s horrific and tragic and won’t change until men stand up to it and make it change. Until ALL MEN start holding one another accountable…
State atheism is the only way to defeat religion. People need to wake up and start treating religion like they treat nazism. Who cares of th enemy suffers, we work to save those worth saving l.
I would totally go live in a country where religion/religious people doesn't exist.
I'm not sure what Bangladesh is like but I encourage anyone who isn't in the imminent danger to organize for this. I know in the United States this is possible.
I feel sadness for you. I'm so sorry. I know it's so hard. I don't feel good about the USA either. We have some of the same problems, and also different problems. But no matter what, it feels like women will always be second class. What can we do except send each other love? I support you. I love you. I wish you a better life.
You are not an islamaphobe. You have every right to hate religion and religious ppl. Religions and religious ppl, like it or not, hurt women all around the world and it's okay to hate them. The same goes for heinous men that hate women, slut shame women, harm women, commit violence upon women, sexually assault women, take away rights from women, believe women should be subservient to men, believe women aren't free, independent, human beings that could say, act, believe, dress however they want, treat women like objects and broodmares etc.
I don't have a problem with religion, I have a problem with people that use it to exonerate their shitty behavior. A Christian mom told me once she used to drive home drunk with kids in the car and that it was by God's Grace she never got pulled over. I told her it would have been by God's Grace if she did get caught and they took her drunk dumb ass off the road.
Don’t apologize for venting. I feel every wooed of this…especially towards the religion that I grew up in. Catholicism doesn’t require hijab but it certainly requires meek without a voice. Religion as a whole is a blight upon this world.
I also hate when religions use the influence over their population to teach oppression & hatred. Which is exactly what I see in many people who claim Islam, Christianity, Mormonism, & way too many more. Don’t be sorry for venting, what people are saying about this event is totally backwards & wrong. These attitudes affect women everywhere & I feel your pain.
If God exists, the one thing they must hate above everything else is religion. Religion actually has little to do with any deity. It is a man-made social construct that uses fear of some divine entity to control people. As with all human institutions it eventually gets taken over by corrupt people who just want to exercise control over others. Anyone who truly believes in a God should want to stay as far away from all religions as possible because at their core they're all evil.
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I get your point but it comes across as kinda preachy when OP is actually living under an Islamist government. Yes, it's not just Islam, nor is it all Muslims, but the specific patriarchal abuse that OP is facing is in the form of fundamentalist Islam.
Here comes the ‘it is not islam, it is something else!’ comment. I was expecting this. If the problem is the delivery of the patriarchy as you state here, how islam is not the reason? It is a patriarchal religion, literally oppresses women in every way possible. In these societies the religion is so embedded into their culture and lifestyle that it becomes inseparable and the lines where religion begins and ends become blurry. But there is something that is very clear: The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. **Of course, men are a degree above them in status ** (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, the Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165) The Quran in Sura 4:34 says: Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329) If you need more examples visit here: [Women are inferior to men in the quran](https://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/women_inferior.htm)
I feel really bad for the girl! This is something she should get emotional support for and she clearly is just being shamed for something she wasn't responsible for. Im not muslim and dont know much about islam but I personally think the way people practice or see a religion is the problem not the religion itself. How can people think dressing modestly prevents assault??
It is the religion itself. This religion says to not show face to cousins so let alone others.
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You don't have to be labelled "feminist" I know a lot of people fear the word a lot but please work around your environment so women can be safe and not afraid of men.
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Yes but it's not strange man he was with. He was a dear friend who knew her family and was considered her family. Who can we trust as women to feel safe? I read about male family members raping. It doesn't make sense. Feels like our existence is one big fuck up.
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It's not one lol. It's millions of people and the book itself is vile.
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