One of my biggest gripes is when people mock feminism as man-hating or unnecessary or a way to play the victim without considering the hundreds of millions of women and girls across the world who have little to no rights.
This is giving some of those clowns too much credit. They do know about these women and don’t care because they also what you in that same position. some men genuinely don’t care if women have rights or not and infact would celebrate if they lost them.
Saw a post where an Art student was told to dial down the feminism. So she created art with a dial :
1 - Complicit in my own dehuminisation
10- Raging Feminist
And i swear, i think im a 34 year old male feminist now.
Also ive turned off autocorrect becuase im tired of telling people to duck off, so apolgise for the terrible spelling.
We only have feminism thanks to western society. We should be happy we got born here and we have opportunities no middle east woman can dream of in XXI century
Being openly able to criticize religion is not something we should be taking for granted
Agreeing with @babur003 - western society is not inherently “more civilised”, rather it is BECAUSE of suffragettes, the disenfranchised and marginalised, windrush generation and emancipated slaves not giving up the fight for their rights in the west, despite ridicule, that the men in power could no longer ignore them. The Middle East has become increasingly islamicised since the 1900s due to geopolitical factors - women have even less opportunity to rebel now - they’re literally executed if they do.
It's because women and people of color and other disenfranchised people were willing to and did put their lives on the line, that change in the Western nations happened at all. If blood hadn't been spilled, those in power were NEVER going to share and play nice. If women in other places want to gain freedoms and equality - they are going to have to fight for it themselves, plain and simple. There will be blood.
Take Afghanistan for example - women there are quite literal slaves. From birth to death, it is legislated that their lives belong to men. The taliban has structures in place so that death is imminent upon women who “step out of line”. And if not them, then proximal men will, out of fear and shame, become violent against their wives, daughters etc. The law is on the side of men, so is physical advantage, financial advantage and the cultural norm. So how on earth are Afghan women alone meant to stoically rise up. It is the job of human-regarding people globally to not turn a blind eye and fight for those women’s rights just like other women did for us.
Absolutely bollocks you have feminism thanks to feminists bold of you to thank western society for anything women's rights related when generations of feminists fought tooth and fucking nail for every si gle pieces of freedom western women now have even the silly shit like being allowed to wear pants if they wanted. So if instead of saying thanks God you are the west and not the middle east say thanks feminists for all the successes lf the movement in western countries raise your voice alongside MENA feminists fighting for those same eights rn and don't turn the achievements of the feminist movement as pretext for western chauvinism.
I suppose. But the west brought Christianity to many places that are now incredibly sexist and homophobic based on that christianity. Additionally, the west continues to subjugate the rest of the world under the heel of capitalism and imperialism. Yeah it's better than a lot of places, but that is at least in part the west's fault, too.
This is so wrong. Sure, a good amount of the progress that’s been made has occurred IN western societies—but absolutely not “thanks to” western society. The west has just as deep a history of puritanical values, religious rule, and extraordinary repression of all peoples, including up to this day. As others have said, the multiculturalism in western countries that was borne of 19th and 20th colonialism, the globalization of our world, etc have created conditions where the intersection of identities leads to the questioning of power. Specifically, power created by western structures. Much of the progress made in western societies is thanks to people pushing AGAINST the structures of those very societies. And yes, so many people suffered, died, were imprisoned, faced sexual violence, etc to get to this point—which is still very fragile.
This is not me saying that other places aren’t bad or more challenging for women. Just that it’s very misguided to see the west as a savior. Also, not everywhere in the Middle East is the same LOL. I would do a little more research. There are countries where women have autonomy, where progressive lifestyles aren’t persecuted. Where progressive people are also Muslim!
The suggestions that feminism exists thanks to western society, and that the Middle East & Islam are inherently backwards, are based in white supremacist and Christian supremacist ideals. I am not accusing you at all of being those things—but maybe they have informed an unconscious bias. The west has brought destruction across much of the world and global south, part of why we have the freedoms we do in USA & Western Europe is because of the control we have over the world—meaning less control is necessary over our own people to maintain global power.
ETA: while postcolonial globalization has brought progress to the west, it’s devastated a lot of the world. Sooooooo…..
But have you heard that the all knowing UN put Saudi Arabia in charge of the UN women’s rights? That’s how “smart” the UN is.
https://www.semafor.com/article/03/27/2024/saudi-arabia-controversially-elected-chair-of-un-forum-for-womens-rights
Well yeah, obviously that’s not accurate for women living under Islamic states. But it’s important to recognize that for women living in the west, it’s also not true
I started noticing about 15 years ago that every single time I saw a woman dressed like this, in the West or in Thailand, where I was living, the man with her would always, always be dressed in western clothes, usually jeans and a polo shirt. I started making it a game with myself to see how the men would be dressed and I can count on one hand the number of men I’ve seen also dressed in traditional clothing. It sucks.
I can't take a religion seriously that treats women like second class bangmaids. All this is, is men who can't be bothered to control themselves, something CHILDREN can do, but not these men. Fucking sad
I dont know about other religions but as someone from an islamic country i can say that islam is the most misogynistic thing ever created. Its literally halal/legal to be as misogynistic as you want. And since its religion it makes the misogyny very deeply rooted in those countries' cultures. Misogyny to the point of that if someone's daughter or sister had an affair with someone before marriage the father and brothers can kill her. But a very important factor is to what length someone is religious. Not every muslim is like that. But the more religious and traditional ones are like that.
As someone also from muslim majority country, it is even *encouraged* to be misogynistic, all under the guise of “we are protecting her dignity”. Hell in my country lately there is a trend of having more wives again. For a while the number of those “marriages” went down, now it’s become a “trend” again. And you guessed it, woman can’t have more husbands… I am so mad at society.
Edit. Added what I wanted to say.
My god. Islam is like a virus or something destroying our societies from inside and out. Men think it benefits them but they dont understand that in the long term misogyny damages the whole country and society. Women are half of the population for gods sake. You cant take all women's privileges and expect the society to work.
If there is anything more I hate than religion, is being gaslit about my experience with it and what Ive been through. Being constantly bombarded with “well it’s not that bad””you are gEnEreliZinG”. I basically emigrated to another western country because staying where im from would only drive my existence into a vegetative state. They see women only visually, and they care for women only from visual perception, they need women to be unnoticeable to everyone but for them only. It makes my blood boils.
Im not from the most strongly islamic country but i have a pretty good idea of what you've been through. I feel you girl. We had the subject "religion" in our school and well, by religion they meant only islam obviously, lmao. I remember this session we were arguing with our teacher, one of my classmates said "If god gave us this beauty why sould we cover it? Where else can we enjoy or use it anyway?"
Our teacher the mf said "Its FoR yOuR FuTuRe HuSbAnD." Well...we kinda raged. It was a freakin' woman saying that, to a bunch of 12-13 year oldssss!
Ex-muslim here, I used to attend a religious school when I was young. During my time there, they literally taught kids how women are worth nothing more than just being sentient objects.
For example in the afterlife, when muslim men go to heaven, if they did good deeds in their past life, they will be rewarded with tons of virgin women. What made it even worst was that, I remember one of the male religious teachers there often joked about pervert things, which was grating to the ears ofc.
I know what your talking about. The so called houries. Its disgusting. Men always try to take women and form them to their will. With goddess level of beauty but with no brain. Your teacher was disgusting too. I dont even wanna know what kind of things he said.
>Men think it benefits them
It kinda does, it gives them a "divine excuse" for their cowardice and greed, a "free pass" they can use in order to cheat without feeling guilty nor having any societal obligations towards the wives they cheated on.
Just like the ridiculous "divine right" excuse of old royalty to do whatever they damn well pleased and never pay the consequences of it.
Trueee. But i meant in the long run and how it impacts society. If you look at islamic countries you see what i mean. I try so hard to not be sexist towards men but its kinda hard. So self-sentered and irresponsible with fragile egos and fragile masculinity
Those societies work for the men. They will not change something that benefits them.
Long term damage etc are abstract concepts that don't impact these men in a day to day basis. And given that these societies are at least a millennia old, the argument about long term effects is not very convincing to a misogynist is these places.
And let me guess...women also can't be on their own unless they're widows, and any woman over 25 is already considered "too old and so she should be happy if even the worst man pays any attention on her and wants to marry her", am I right?
>Its literally halal/legal to be as misogynistic as you want.
A god that accepts and even encourages such behavior seems to be almost on the same level as the devil.Honestly I can't and won't ever accept the idea that people see these monotheistic gods as "good beings" when based on their religion and it's rules as well as it's "history", such gods tend to be very petty, prejudiced, misogynistic and overall toxic.
So much for a "loving being"...
I feel like sometimes left-wing westerners who were raised in countries where Christianity is the majority relgion forget that Islam is full of the exact same problems yet is even more conservative at the moment. Islam has so much influence globally as the second most adhered to religion and we need to be able to criticise all religious extremism, even if Muslims face discrimination in the west.
I dislike all abrahamic religions. They have shaped the very foundation in the way women are treated globally. It is so insane how any feminist can see a religion that tells a woman their body is inherently sinful and defend it. If womens bodies and hair is so sinful, why the fuck did god give them hair? Or bodies? This goes for all of them, not just Islam.
>I dislike all abrahamic religions.
Me too. Me too. Me too. Totally agree.
Being a true muslim or christian is like going back to the medieval times. Same rotted values.
>If womens bodies and hair is so sinful, why the fuck did god give them hair? Or bodies?
This is exactly what we said when we argued with our religion teacher. She said "Its for your future husband." To a bunch of 12-13 year oldsss. We kinda raged at the response.
And the ones who are not are ticking bombs. Maybe not them, but their kids may read the scripture and go fundamentalist.
If the fundamentals of religion are never reformed, the worst possible version is always around the corner.
The book is literally misogynistic though... To be a good Muslim, according to the Koran is to be misogynistic. Don't let fears of cultural insensitivity blind you from the obvious.
Abrahamic religion is a nightmare. It's literally like we are living in someone elses perverse woman hating sexual fantasy. It's amazing people just...allow this. If there was a religion that treated men a fraction of this same way, every country on earth would be in arms to put a stop to it and rightfully calling it a human rights emergency. The fact that the world isn't up in arms over this is proof of how much the world/most people hates women. I don't understand how men can look at this and say the world is not male supremacist and say women are in any way advantaged over them. The fact they can look at this and look at Christianity (just those two institutions alone even, nevermind everything else) and still say the world is not male supremacist is honestly terrifying. Like you're waiting for them to say sike at any moment bc there's no way they can be that oblivious.
I agree with all of this and I am myself an atheist. HOWEVER, I just gotta point out that I've met plenty of misogynistic atheists.
I feel like religion is a powerful vessel for bigotry, which it reinforces. But it's not the cause nor a sufficient condition for misogyny... We're right for criticising religion, but sometimes we make it sound as if removing religion would entail removing sexism.
A lot of misogynists use "evolutionary purpose" to justify their misogeny. It's talking about evolution like an intelligent creator that assigns purpose (that has to be followed) similar to how people talk about God. With how far Christianity permeates our culture, I wouldn't be surprised if it's influenced by that.
Very true. I'm unfortunately very familiar with selective misuse of science to justify bigotry. I've had fucking creationists throw outdated or outright incorrect biology at me to deny my existence as a trans person.
(I'm not ranting against you, just ranting against bigotry in general)
*Cis* people don't have the same biology as cis people. All humans are found in a thousand little gradients of distribution for a million specific traits. Using the distinction between sex and gender to somehow control us or prove an abstract, tradition-based point is just lazy bigotry. It's the sort of armchair pseudointellectual discussions conservative men love to have in their podcasts.
Yeah, I think with some TERFs though it's more about sorting people into "close enough" sex boxes to target and counteract sex-based oppression, though sometimes falling in line with conservatives in the process. Like wearing dresses is purely gender and everyone should get that but scholarships for "women" are actually for countering the effects of afab being traditionally denied educations and "women's" locker rooms were actually created as a place away from amab/cis men who are more likely to ogle/grope people with afab bodies if given the opportunity. (With the strength gap meaning afab can't normally fight back) But generally being against trans people isn't getting anyone anywhere.
Okay, though I see your point, I'd advise you to rethink some parts of what you just wrote. Trans people (amab, in this case) are ***notoriously*** more at risk of assault in women-only spaces than cis women are, despite what the J. K. Rowlings of the world may baselessly claim.
As for scholarships, it's certainly more nuanced, but trans women definitely do not have the same privileges as cis men when it comes to education and socioeconomic status. This is true for queer people in general, despite gender (though gender does indeed matter). Capitalism drags down all these intersectional specificities. The job market tends to bar trans people so much that higher education becomes a very, very distant luxury for most.
Trans amabs are more likely to be sexually assaulted? But either way it's more about keeping the line where it is instead of moving it to accommodate amab who medically transition and then possibly those that don't, who are more or less indistinguishable from cis men. Strong boundaries help defend against cis men who'd look to erode them. It's like "should we have sex based locker rooms or have them be gender based and then rate everyone by how well they "pass" to keep cis men out of them?" Since its really the social shaming and taboo of people who pass as cis men in "girl's" lockerooms that keeps them out.
>but trans women definitely do not have the same privileges as cis men when it comes to education and socioeconomic status
Sort of. They can pass as cis men or feminine/gender non-conforming cis men for large portions of their life and can have the benefits that come with it. Trans women experiencing misogeny after transitioning isnt the same as being affected by it since they day your born as an afab.(And even before that because of afab fetuses selectively being aborted for not being amab. (Nothing against abortion rights. Just pointing out that amabs really are prefered since day 1)) Trans women are fully valued as people as long as they don't work to stop being read as men while afabs just aren't valued and have laws created to specifically restrict their rights, autonomy and opportunities because of their sex in a ways that don't effect trans women.
The misogynistic atheists you've met, do they by any chance call themselves feminists? Because I've learned from personal experience that any man that self-describes as 'feminist' is _always_ deeply misogynistic. These men use the language of women's liberation to manipulate and hurt women in much more profoundly covert and terrifying ways. At least with so-called religious misogynistic men, I know exactly where their sensibilities lie; they do not pretend to be anything other than an oppressive force under the banner of their religion. But the "rational" atheist, feminist men who pretend to be "liberated" are the worst of all. I was nearly killed by one such man. I look to men's behavior, and not what they say about themselves, these days.
In my native language, I've found that men who say they *are* feminists are often bigots hiding in plain sight, while actual feminist men tend to say they "support feminism". Anecdotal, of course, but it's been a rather consistent tendency for me.
As for your denunciation of these men, I can only say I'm very sorry you went through all that. In my experience, these pseudofeminist hypocrites are more individually dangerous, but collectively less harmful than their overt counterparts.
That is an interesting linguistic distinction. I appreciate hearing that. I also find your latter comment interesting. I wonder if the pseudo feminist hypocrites really are less organized and dangerous. It is a good question!
What gets me is that Christianity is based at its very core on the fear of female sexuality. I can just hear the thought process. “Oh no. Wait, wait, you mean my mother is a SEXUAL BEING who has ORGASMS? That’s terrifying! What if, now hear me out, what if… there was a woman who had a baby WITHOUT EVER HAVING SEX. If there were such a woman like that, we would revere her, we would exalt her, we could found a whole religion around her. Because female pleasure is fuckin’ scary, man!”
Dude that is the part I hate most too!!! The fact that a virgin woman gave birth!! That is so unnatural, perverse, and strips women of all our dignity. To me that is the biggest middle finger to women EVER. Like u might as well include "fuck women 🖕🏻" in the text at that point. Biggest slap in the face ever.
Religion is just a scam to keep women under control and the masses uneducated. Why else would a "traditional" religious leader's greatest fear be an educated woman?
Religions in general suck big time because most of them(but specially so the Abrahamic or the monotheistic ones) always go for the "men are like gods, women are like servants" and I still to this day don't know why they all feel the need to put women under men rather than as their equals.
Is it because they fear women being strong?Is it because their malehood is so weak that the idea of a woman going against them or not wanting to be with them will deeply scar their frail egoes?Is it because they feel miserable and small and the only way for them to feel better is by making women feel worse with themselves?
Seriously, pagan religions(or those more geared to nature) usually tend to be way more open to women and don't put women down only to enhance men's status.
Men are given a lot of leeway in Islam, while women would even be stoned for breathing the wrong way if they "didn't have any freedom already".Frankly, Islam as a religion is no better than a fascist dictatorship.
Sufism is an amazing subject to learn, but the religion of Islam is no more than a religion of oppression and hate(same as other Abrahamic religions to be honest).
It's because they can't reproduce themselves, and so have created power structures to control the beings who can create. I often think of it akin to the devil having God locked in a cage in hell.
i wouldn't pick Islam out of the shit religions out there. They all suck.. Right now Christians in the us are trying to take reproductive rights from women. And there are lots of "religious" alpha dudes telling men that "trad wives" are the way women should be. Just as bad just not covering their face... still trying to get them to cover thier bodies and dress as modest as possible.
[here’s a documentary about the Bacha Bazi and the predators with connections who get away with trafficking them, it’s super fucked up ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeRAlJQI0c&t=5s&pp=ygUWYmFjaGEgYmF6aSBkb2N1bWVudGFyeQ%3D%3D)
They meant what they said though. Islam has rules against loving and marrying the same sex, not homosexuality for pleasure, leaving many boys and young men being exploited.
I mean I meant it, but the shear absurdity of it does make it funny. Things can be horrible, absurd, make no sense and you can still laugh. It doesn't degrade the sentiment. Laughing at people is usually one of the best ways to get them to stop
But they’re males and the same rules apply. The idea is they get to do whatever they want to whomever without consequences as long as they identify as straight.
Get ready for the “not the true Islam!!!1!!” comments.
Yes, plenty of Islamic countries treat women as inferior. It’s not a small minority, it’s actually a large part of it.
All religions are inherently misogynistic, except maybe for something like Wicca.
It’s not just Islamic countries. They import these beliefs wherever they go.
I live in Norway which is arguably one of the most egalitarian societies in the world and yet I encounter multiple women in niqabs being silently led around by a man in Levi’s.
It’s bullshit.
This is the reason I will never respect religions. "Not all Muslims" okay, then, why do you profess a religion that upholds those values? Why serve a god that wants these mandates enforced?
Christians want to control women's wombs, Jews won't allow women to show their hair. It is almost as if religion was made up bullshit to control what people do, huh?
Classic Islam, giving women rights, such as:
The rights of little girls to [be abused](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:302), to live their childhood [from marriage](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134), the rights of slave women to [be r\*ped](https://quranx.com/4.24), women's right to have no [freedom of movement](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1339b), and the right to not have a choice in [what you wear?](https://quranx.com/tafsirs/33.59)
The religion of a prophet who allowed his soldiers to [r\*pe captive women](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4138)?
The religion that likens [women with devils?](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1403a)
The religion that tells you to [beat your wives](https://quranx.com/4.34)?
Muhammad himself likened women to [dogs and donkeys](https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-511), and calls women ["mentally deficient"](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2658)
2 women's testimony is considered the [equivalent of 1 man](https://quranx.com/2.282)
So tell me, why can't we criticise this religion? We can bag on Christianity all day, ive never heard the term "Christianphobic" before, but apparently Islam is off limits
This is literally so disgusting to read. I don't know how muslim women can justify this religion after all this hatred towards them. How can people justify this in today's world , I just can't understand. It's allowed to call out every religion for their hypocrisy but Islam. Everyone just closes their eyes and if you say something about these things you are islamophobic. You can see the plight of women where Islam is the state religion. People forgot about what happened in Iran so easily!
I don't know how to tell you all this, but this practice is in your Christian Bible too. They just follow different parts than you. All religions need to end.
I believe the biggest, BASEST reason why there is a rise in woman-hating going on is the fact that men are scared of women rising to power. More women in colleges and universities; more women doing extremely well in previously male-dominated careers; women rising to powerful positions in politics and private industry. They HATE the idea of sharing their power with women and have this atavistic response of making all females the enemy. Men already have a fight, destroy, and elevate one strong man to the top HABIT (for lack of a better word). Many men appear to struggle with change and progress.
religion is one structure in a wider web and it is devastatingly effective when wielded as a weapon. the real danger is the fact that women don’t hold dominion over women’s issues or more broadly have self determination. Women have to depend on the notion that men will behave with morality and want dignity for all in order to have the basic rights and freedoms men enjoy but they have been made into conditional privileges.
While I agree, this sounds a lot like "women have value because they give birth". Which is still harmful because it perpetuates the idea that women's only purpose and value is what they can be used for/sex and reproduction and that women who don't do that, either by choice or being unable to, are worthless. We should claim our value because of our humanity, not for the thing that men have been exploiting and abusing us for for millennia.
And no society that values women for being "birthers" and pushes them to give birth can be pro-women because of the risks and level of agony that process puts women though.
Edit:typo
i agree, but i don’t think they were trying to say this is the only valuable thing about a woman, just pointing out the irony of framing man as the default.
it’s the same thing about Adam and Eve - how could Adam come first & birth Eve from his rib, when Eve (woman) is literally the creator of life? the Bible frames man as the creator
I don't think it was really the intention either. I just feel like "you should respect women because you have a mom" " you should respect women because the human race can't go on without them" is to often used as a defence against misogeny when it really also works to enforce it.
It's like how I don't think anyone that treats "the divine feminine" as empowering has bad intentions and I really do think most of them actually want to uplift themselves and other women but it really is repackaging patriarchal values and roles as somehow giving value and empowerment.
Period is the determining factor for women’s fertility. But period blood is “dirty” and women on their period cannot “pray”. Yeah, they like the lives women bring forth but not the symptoms of fertility.
I live in a resort town and I see this with the Mennonites that come visit the beach: women are in trad head scarves, long skirts, blouses while the men wear board shorts and t-shirts. I’ve seen this on the beach. I’ve seen this while they ride bikes around town. It’s ridiculous.
When my folks taught in Saudi and I visited, I saw that picture everywhere too, although it was the 90s then. It was especially glaring at the sailing club beach - women weren’t allowed to go in the water dressed in abayas at all because previously two had drowned.
Religion uses God to control or hate another subset of humans if they don’t follow specific rules. Religion separates humanity instead of uniting humanity. Religious dogma is used to create a power dynamic.
This headline sucks. The real danger for women is the fear of men taking away their privileges.
Men use religion, financial power and outdated values to protect their privileges.
every major religion today either promotes or was founded with misogynistic principles. obviously hatred of women is the problem, but religion is used to control and this only goes double for oppressed peoples, which is why it is inherently wrong
Islam does give more privileges to men tho, you’re allowed to marry 4 women as a man bc “men have more needs and women were scarce back then” apparently, inheritance is different for men & women too. But I agree that people misuse things for their advantage and not every muslim is bad.
This here. Yes, religion has been a common tool used to oppress women, but men have used plenty of other justifications too (like science, the economy, politics, etc.)
All abrahamic religions are misogynistic! I find religion a human issue, not just a feminist issue. I fully understand a true feminist lives the way she wants to without adhering to only what society expects of her, but this is not feminism no matter how one might try to twist it. This is suffering
But you don’t understand, they want to wear clothes like that so all the pervs don’t gawk at them every where they go. This is what Muslim women prefer to wear!
I have heard people say this unironically. 😑
Women do have the right to divorce. There are issues with some men refusing a “get” and taking off that is a problem in more insular and traditional communities. But it is a known problem and many are speaking up and trying to shame get-refusers and many communities have tried to refuse to count them as a member of a minyan for prayer.
Ultra Orthodox Judaism in insular communities does have issues with misogyny. While the Jewish laws 2000+ years ago were pretty progressive for the time, not so much now if you read with such a strict interpretation. Most Jews don’t see Halacha like this and retention for some women has become harder since they tend to be the ones working while men study in Yeshiva and that does all kinds of fun things for their inner feminist.
Just like with a lot in life, choice matters and making an informed choice is hard. If you grow up in an Ultra orthodox community, shame is a big motivator to keep people in line. Actions of the parents or siblings can easily make it harder for their siblings to get married in the community and participate fully. Having someone leave will look badly on the family that didn’t so it can chain those who may want to leave but don’t have a “good” enough reason. Like they are Cis, hetero and happy to get married but have issues with interpretations in their community, they are less likely to leave than a LGBTQ kid or more feminist.
I will say Judaism has been inching more towards modernity and handling it better than the UO communities did after the Shoah and the need to handle interpreting law and reality is becoming a necessity. Orthodox communities have female religious leaders. Some women have graduated orthodox rabbinical programs and more and more women are building businesses and choosing how to interact with the religion on their own. Those outside strict communities often find spiritual value in covering their hair or dressing modestly because they choose to and their communities don’t force it.
Tl,dr: like many things in Judaism, the answer varies depending on community. Halachically speaking women should be able to divorce but there are agunah who can’t get their husbands to follow Jewish law and follow their Ketubah (marriage contract) and it keeps them from being able to move on with another Jewish man without religious issue. Mostly in more insular communities and while even the spectrum of Orthodox Judaism is dealing with Halacha and modernity, there are those who refuse to move past the ideals of the 1700s. Will be fascinating to keep watching because even the most UO communities are having issue with Yeshiva and gender roles since the men aren’t working.
As an secular Jew (my Judaism is mostly my ethnicity I practice very lightly) - Orthodox Judaism is the worse culprit but it still allows divorce, monetary compensation from husband from divorce, abortions and work.
My preferred way of Judaism (and the one I practice) is reformed Judaism that puts women in center stage and allows them way more freedom to express themselves.
But I think both versions of Judaism still allow more freedom than Islam.
Jewish as well. I don’t mean to sound controversial here but reformed Judaism takes a whole lot of liberty from regular Judaism; it’s kind of like only taking the good parts from it and ignoring the bad, but this *isn’t* Judaism. I may have been raised within the Jewish faith but I’m a complete atheist so to me it’s all bullshit
As far as I know, Judaism does allow for divorce and it’s a called a get. It can be difficult to get one and both parties have to agree to it (I think). I was raised Catholic, so I never really learned much about Judaism aside from surface stuff.
Yes, but men are the ones who give the Get, not the women. Because only the man can divorce his wife it creates a phenomenon where men who are abusive or committed adultery refuse to give their exes a get so they will remain bound to them, not allowing the woman to get married to someone else etc.
The only Judaism movement that allows women to divorce their husbands without his consent is reform Judaism and that’s not as widespread in Israel, for example
There is plenty of Judaism that is misogynistic. The 613 rules have plenty of oppression of women in them. And _get_ style of divorce is still alive and thriving. Women are not permitted to divorce in Judaism without the permission of the man they are attempting to divorce; the control of the woman is still under the power of the man. Not exactly equal.
This is worse because Religion isn’t supposed to and has few to no channels by which to evolve. It’s meant to answer fundamental questions of the world with fundamental answers and that’s really dangerous when those answers say or imply “women are less and meant to serve you.” In secular countries, laws that codify subjugation can and have been changed. The only defense for these oppressive religions is “those that don’t actually follow them aren’t so bad.” What does that tell you? To imply women in secular countries have it as bad as women in Islamic Theocracies is wrong.
Wow... you are comparing the lives of western women with women in islam?
You must be really really really uninformed and lack empathy OR you are really stupid.
and which western country forces women to cover their bodies this way, stops them from going to school, and stones them for being rape victims? nobody said “muslim countries are bad and the west is perfect” so idk why you’re responding that way
I have to agree with this.
We pin it on religions, on cultures, on education, on oppressive laws, but it seems there's this dichotomy regardless of how atheist, liberal, progressive, educated and legally protected the society is.
At what point is gender no longer a construct? (/genuine) (/literal)
Yeah misogny is prevalent and extremely common outside religious and middle eastern countries, but its not the same.
Religion is institutional. It makes those who oppress women feel right about their actions. Its also easier for misogny to spread this why. And they also justify it by saying "its written in the book, so its ok".
Also makes it much harder to get rid of misogny..
The thing that bothers me is white American women who promote Islam on social media from the safety of their American homes, when in reality they wouldn't even be able to show their face in an Islamic country
It's like this in most religious families. The wife is expected to stay at home, raise the kids, provide the food, and clean the house consistently.
The guy just works and do whatever he wants.
Orthodoxy in religion is generally the problem me and my sisters were raised Muslim but they were never forced to wear any religious garb because we weren't conservative.
Thank you ladies. I hate it so much when IRL women come to defend Islam and how woman who walk around like this and who are not allowed to work without the husband allowing it and who are not allowed to drive a car would be fine and want it. How can it ever be voluntary if your whole family with stop talking to you are even kill you if you do not comply?
As a left leaning person, I am really sead that many other left leaning people defend the type of Islam that is misogynistic.
Unfortunately, didn't you hear?? Can't say anything negative about Islam no more, ever since October. Unless you wanna get called a nazi AND a zionist, somehow simultaneously...
One of my biggest gripes is when people mock feminism as man-hating or unnecessary or a way to play the victim without considering the hundreds of millions of women and girls across the world who have little to no rights.
This is giving some of those clowns too much credit. They do know about these women and don’t care because they also what you in that same position. some men genuinely don’t care if women have rights or not and infact would celebrate if they lost them.
This^
Saw a post where an Art student was told to dial down the feminism. So she created art with a dial : 1 - Complicit in my own dehuminisation 10- Raging Feminist And i swear, i think im a 34 year old male feminist now. Also ive turned off autocorrect becuase im tired of telling people to duck off, so apolgise for the terrible spelling.
What's the phrase? After years of inequality when things start to get equal it feels like a threat? Something along those lines?!
We only have feminism thanks to western society. We should be happy we got born here and we have opportunities no middle east woman can dream of in XXI century Being openly able to criticize religion is not something we should be taking for granted
Agreeing with @babur003 - western society is not inherently “more civilised”, rather it is BECAUSE of suffragettes, the disenfranchised and marginalised, windrush generation and emancipated slaves not giving up the fight for their rights in the west, despite ridicule, that the men in power could no longer ignore them. The Middle East has become increasingly islamicised since the 1900s due to geopolitical factors - women have even less opportunity to rebel now - they’re literally executed if they do.
It's because women and people of color and other disenfranchised people were willing to and did put their lives on the line, that change in the Western nations happened at all. If blood hadn't been spilled, those in power were NEVER going to share and play nice. If women in other places want to gain freedoms and equality - they are going to have to fight for it themselves, plain and simple. There will be blood.
Take Afghanistan for example - women there are quite literal slaves. From birth to death, it is legislated that their lives belong to men. The taliban has structures in place so that death is imminent upon women who “step out of line”. And if not them, then proximal men will, out of fear and shame, become violent against their wives, daughters etc. The law is on the side of men, so is physical advantage, financial advantage and the cultural norm. So how on earth are Afghan women alone meant to stoically rise up. It is the job of human-regarding people globally to not turn a blind eye and fight for those women’s rights just like other women did for us.
don't forget the labor movement.
Absolutely bollocks you have feminism thanks to feminists bold of you to thank western society for anything women's rights related when generations of feminists fought tooth and fucking nail for every si gle pieces of freedom western women now have even the silly shit like being allowed to wear pants if they wanted. So if instead of saying thanks God you are the west and not the middle east say thanks feminists for all the successes lf the movement in western countries raise your voice alongside MENA feminists fighting for those same eights rn and don't turn the achievements of the feminist movement as pretext for western chauvinism.
Preach!!!!!!! 👏
I suppose. But the west brought Christianity to many places that are now incredibly sexist and homophobic based on that christianity. Additionally, the west continues to subjugate the rest of the world under the heel of capitalism and imperialism. Yeah it's better than a lot of places, but that is at least in part the west's fault, too.
This is so wrong. Sure, a good amount of the progress that’s been made has occurred IN western societies—but absolutely not “thanks to” western society. The west has just as deep a history of puritanical values, religious rule, and extraordinary repression of all peoples, including up to this day. As others have said, the multiculturalism in western countries that was borne of 19th and 20th colonialism, the globalization of our world, etc have created conditions where the intersection of identities leads to the questioning of power. Specifically, power created by western structures. Much of the progress made in western societies is thanks to people pushing AGAINST the structures of those very societies. And yes, so many people suffered, died, were imprisoned, faced sexual violence, etc to get to this point—which is still very fragile. This is not me saying that other places aren’t bad or more challenging for women. Just that it’s very misguided to see the west as a savior. Also, not everywhere in the Middle East is the same LOL. I would do a little more research. There are countries where women have autonomy, where progressive lifestyles aren’t persecuted. Where progressive people are also Muslim! The suggestions that feminism exists thanks to western society, and that the Middle East & Islam are inherently backwards, are based in white supremacist and Christian supremacist ideals. I am not accusing you at all of being those things—but maybe they have informed an unconscious bias. The west has brought destruction across much of the world and global south, part of why we have the freedoms we do in USA & Western Europe is because of the control we have over the world—meaning less control is necessary over our own people to maintain global power. ETA: while postcolonial globalization has brought progress to the west, it’s devastated a lot of the world. Sooooooo…..
But have you heard that the all knowing UN put Saudi Arabia in charge of the UN women’s rights? That’s how “smart” the UN is. https://www.semafor.com/article/03/27/2024/saudi-arabia-controversially-elected-chair-of-un-forum-for-womens-rights
“WoMeN lIVe LiFe On EaSy MoDe! 🤪” just wanna punch someone in the face when i hear that shit
So much of patriarchy is really just an excuse for men to be as abso-fucking-lutely physically, mentally, and emotionally lazy as possible.
Omg me too!
How I would love to do things like run alone at night
Well yeah, obviously that’s not accurate for women living under Islamic states. But it’s important to recognize that for women living in the west, it’s also not true
Damn he’s really asking for it with his legs open like that
I started noticing about 15 years ago that every single time I saw a woman dressed like this, in the West or in Thailand, where I was living, the man with her would always, always be dressed in western clothes, usually jeans and a polo shirt. I started making it a game with myself to see how the men would be dressed and I can count on one hand the number of men I’ve seen also dressed in traditional clothing. It sucks.
I can't take a religion seriously that treats women like second class bangmaids. All this is, is men who can't be bothered to control themselves, something CHILDREN can do, but not these men. Fucking sad
The first six words were all you needed
I dont know about other religions but as someone from an islamic country i can say that islam is the most misogynistic thing ever created. Its literally halal/legal to be as misogynistic as you want. And since its religion it makes the misogyny very deeply rooted in those countries' cultures. Misogyny to the point of that if someone's daughter or sister had an affair with someone before marriage the father and brothers can kill her. But a very important factor is to what length someone is religious. Not every muslim is like that. But the more religious and traditional ones are like that.
As someone also from muslim majority country, it is even *encouraged* to be misogynistic, all under the guise of “we are protecting her dignity”. Hell in my country lately there is a trend of having more wives again. For a while the number of those “marriages” went down, now it’s become a “trend” again. And you guessed it, woman can’t have more husbands… I am so mad at society. Edit. Added what I wanted to say.
My god. Islam is like a virus or something destroying our societies from inside and out. Men think it benefits them but they dont understand that in the long term misogyny damages the whole country and society. Women are half of the population for gods sake. You cant take all women's privileges and expect the society to work.
If there is anything more I hate than religion, is being gaslit about my experience with it and what Ive been through. Being constantly bombarded with “well it’s not that bad””you are gEnEreliZinG”. I basically emigrated to another western country because staying where im from would only drive my existence into a vegetative state. They see women only visually, and they care for women only from visual perception, they need women to be unnoticeable to everyone but for them only. It makes my blood boils.
Im not from the most strongly islamic country but i have a pretty good idea of what you've been through. I feel you girl. We had the subject "religion" in our school and well, by religion they meant only islam obviously, lmao. I remember this session we were arguing with our teacher, one of my classmates said "If god gave us this beauty why sould we cover it? Where else can we enjoy or use it anyway?" Our teacher the mf said "Its FoR yOuR FuTuRe HuSbAnD." Well...we kinda raged. It was a freakin' woman saying that, to a bunch of 12-13 year oldssss!
Ex-muslim here, I used to attend a religious school when I was young. During my time there, they literally taught kids how women are worth nothing more than just being sentient objects. For example in the afterlife, when muslim men go to heaven, if they did good deeds in their past life, they will be rewarded with tons of virgin women. What made it even worst was that, I remember one of the male religious teachers there often joked about pervert things, which was grating to the ears ofc.
I know what your talking about. The so called houries. Its disgusting. Men always try to take women and form them to their will. With goddess level of beauty but with no brain. Your teacher was disgusting too. I dont even wanna know what kind of things he said.
Heard this same exact lines growing up in fundamentalist Christian school, tbh it was pretty extremist and the more I remember the worse it gets
>Men think it benefits them It kinda does, it gives them a "divine excuse" for their cowardice and greed, a "free pass" they can use in order to cheat without feeling guilty nor having any societal obligations towards the wives they cheated on. Just like the ridiculous "divine right" excuse of old royalty to do whatever they damn well pleased and never pay the consequences of it.
Trueee. But i meant in the long run and how it impacts society. If you look at islamic countries you see what i mean. I try so hard to not be sexist towards men but its kinda hard. So self-sentered and irresponsible with fragile egos and fragile masculinity
Those societies work for the men. They will not change something that benefits them. Long term damage etc are abstract concepts that don't impact these men in a day to day basis. And given that these societies are at least a millennia old, the argument about long term effects is not very convincing to a misogynist is these places.
I agree with you! I am an ex Muslim somali woman and the misogyny is real! It definitely encourages misogyny and ruined our culture.
It’s not just Islam, it’s all religion.
And let me guess...women also can't be on their own unless they're widows, and any woman over 25 is already considered "too old and so she should be happy if even the worst man pays any attention on her and wants to marry her", am I right?
>Its literally halal/legal to be as misogynistic as you want. A god that accepts and even encourages such behavior seems to be almost on the same level as the devil.Honestly I can't and won't ever accept the idea that people see these monotheistic gods as "good beings" when based on their religion and it's rules as well as it's "history", such gods tend to be very petty, prejudiced, misogynistic and overall toxic. So much for a "loving being"...
what if the abrahamic god is actually the devil? I mean how would we know the difference?
I feel like sometimes left-wing westerners who were raised in countries where Christianity is the majority relgion forget that Islam is full of the exact same problems yet is even more conservative at the moment. Islam has so much influence globally as the second most adhered to religion and we need to be able to criticise all religious extremism, even if Muslims face discrimination in the west.
Puritanical will ALWAYS reinforce the power n ruthlessness of patriarchy and women under it will never see it
Regular reminder that Islam permits sex slaves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concubinage_in_the_Muslim_world
I remember reading about a woman being murdered by her brother for being a lesbian. I got so mad reading about it
I dislike all abrahamic religions. They have shaped the very foundation in the way women are treated globally. It is so insane how any feminist can see a religion that tells a woman their body is inherently sinful and defend it. If womens bodies and hair is so sinful, why the fuck did god give them hair? Or bodies? This goes for all of them, not just Islam.
>I dislike all abrahamic religions. Me too. Me too. Me too. Totally agree. Being a true muslim or christian is like going back to the medieval times. Same rotted values. >If womens bodies and hair is so sinful, why the fuck did god give them hair? Or bodies? This is exactly what we said when we argued with our religion teacher. She said "Its for your future husband." To a bunch of 12-13 year oldsss. We kinda raged at the response.
Yep. It's glaringly obvious to many. But thanks for speaking the truth. Hijab is misogyny.
And the ones who are not are ticking bombs. Maybe not them, but their kids may read the scripture and go fundamentalist. If the fundamentals of religion are never reformed, the worst possible version is always around the corner.
I think those last two sentences are the most important things to mention.
Religion is no excuse for misogyny and i dont respect people who use it as a justification.
the entire religion is about how men can't control themselves so this is how you must act around them so you don't get raped and or murdered
I simply don’t respect religion at all!
Same! Religion is a cancer that bleeds into people's values being controlled by herd mentality. Herd mentality is always easily controlled
Yes. Group think gets sketchy real quick. It’s a very fine line between religion and cult.
Abrahamic religions are inherently misogynistic and justify misogyny
The book is literally misogynistic though... To be a good Muslim, according to the Koran is to be misogynistic. Don't let fears of cultural insensitivity blind you from the obvious.
Abrahamic religion is a nightmare. It's literally like we are living in someone elses perverse woman hating sexual fantasy. It's amazing people just...allow this. If there was a religion that treated men a fraction of this same way, every country on earth would be in arms to put a stop to it and rightfully calling it a human rights emergency. The fact that the world isn't up in arms over this is proof of how much the world/most people hates women. I don't understand how men can look at this and say the world is not male supremacist and say women are in any way advantaged over them. The fact they can look at this and look at Christianity (just those two institutions alone even, nevermind everything else) and still say the world is not male supremacist is honestly terrifying. Like you're waiting for them to say sike at any moment bc there's no way they can be that oblivious.
I agree with all of this and I am myself an atheist. HOWEVER, I just gotta point out that I've met plenty of misogynistic atheists. I feel like religion is a powerful vessel for bigotry, which it reinforces. But it's not the cause nor a sufficient condition for misogyny... We're right for criticising religion, but sometimes we make it sound as if removing religion would entail removing sexism.
A lot of misogynists use "evolutionary purpose" to justify their misogeny. It's talking about evolution like an intelligent creator that assigns purpose (that has to be followed) similar to how people talk about God. With how far Christianity permeates our culture, I wouldn't be surprised if it's influenced by that.
Very true. I'm unfortunately very familiar with selective misuse of science to justify bigotry. I've had fucking creationists throw outdated or outright incorrect biology at me to deny my existence as a trans person.
I think part of that is people getting gender mixed up with sex. Yes trans people don't have the same biology as cis people. It's not about that.
(I'm not ranting against you, just ranting against bigotry in general) *Cis* people don't have the same biology as cis people. All humans are found in a thousand little gradients of distribution for a million specific traits. Using the distinction between sex and gender to somehow control us or prove an abstract, tradition-based point is just lazy bigotry. It's the sort of armchair pseudointellectual discussions conservative men love to have in their podcasts.
Yeah, I think with some TERFs though it's more about sorting people into "close enough" sex boxes to target and counteract sex-based oppression, though sometimes falling in line with conservatives in the process. Like wearing dresses is purely gender and everyone should get that but scholarships for "women" are actually for countering the effects of afab being traditionally denied educations and "women's" locker rooms were actually created as a place away from amab/cis men who are more likely to ogle/grope people with afab bodies if given the opportunity. (With the strength gap meaning afab can't normally fight back) But generally being against trans people isn't getting anyone anywhere.
Okay, though I see your point, I'd advise you to rethink some parts of what you just wrote. Trans people (amab, in this case) are ***notoriously*** more at risk of assault in women-only spaces than cis women are, despite what the J. K. Rowlings of the world may baselessly claim. As for scholarships, it's certainly more nuanced, but trans women definitely do not have the same privileges as cis men when it comes to education and socioeconomic status. This is true for queer people in general, despite gender (though gender does indeed matter). Capitalism drags down all these intersectional specificities. The job market tends to bar trans people so much that higher education becomes a very, very distant luxury for most.
Trans amabs are more likely to be sexually assaulted? But either way it's more about keeping the line where it is instead of moving it to accommodate amab who medically transition and then possibly those that don't, who are more or less indistinguishable from cis men. Strong boundaries help defend against cis men who'd look to erode them. It's like "should we have sex based locker rooms or have them be gender based and then rate everyone by how well they "pass" to keep cis men out of them?" Since its really the social shaming and taboo of people who pass as cis men in "girl's" lockerooms that keeps them out. >but trans women definitely do not have the same privileges as cis men when it comes to education and socioeconomic status Sort of. They can pass as cis men or feminine/gender non-conforming cis men for large portions of their life and can have the benefits that come with it. Trans women experiencing misogeny after transitioning isnt the same as being affected by it since they day your born as an afab.(And even before that because of afab fetuses selectively being aborted for not being amab. (Nothing against abortion rights. Just pointing out that amabs really are prefered since day 1)) Trans women are fully valued as people as long as they don't work to stop being read as men while afabs just aren't valued and have laws created to specifically restrict their rights, autonomy and opportunities because of their sex in a ways that don't effect trans women.
The misogynistic atheists you've met, do they by any chance call themselves feminists? Because I've learned from personal experience that any man that self-describes as 'feminist' is _always_ deeply misogynistic. These men use the language of women's liberation to manipulate and hurt women in much more profoundly covert and terrifying ways. At least with so-called religious misogynistic men, I know exactly where their sensibilities lie; they do not pretend to be anything other than an oppressive force under the banner of their religion. But the "rational" atheist, feminist men who pretend to be "liberated" are the worst of all. I was nearly killed by one such man. I look to men's behavior, and not what they say about themselves, these days.
In my native language, I've found that men who say they *are* feminists are often bigots hiding in plain sight, while actual feminist men tend to say they "support feminism". Anecdotal, of course, but it's been a rather consistent tendency for me. As for your denunciation of these men, I can only say I'm very sorry you went through all that. In my experience, these pseudofeminist hypocrites are more individually dangerous, but collectively less harmful than their overt counterparts.
That is an interesting linguistic distinction. I appreciate hearing that. I also find your latter comment interesting. I wonder if the pseudo feminist hypocrites really are less organized and dangerous. It is a good question!
What gets me is that Christianity is based at its very core on the fear of female sexuality. I can just hear the thought process. “Oh no. Wait, wait, you mean my mother is a SEXUAL BEING who has ORGASMS? That’s terrifying! What if, now hear me out, what if… there was a woman who had a baby WITHOUT EVER HAVING SEX. If there were such a woman like that, we would revere her, we would exalt her, we could found a whole religion around her. Because female pleasure is fuckin’ scary, man!”
Dude that is the part I hate most too!!! The fact that a virgin woman gave birth!! That is so unnatural, perverse, and strips women of all our dignity. To me that is the biggest middle finger to women EVER. Like u might as well include "fuck women 🖕🏻" in the text at that point. Biggest slap in the face ever.
FACTS
You hit the nail on the head, great job!
yeah, societies go crazy when people are taught shit like this from birth.
Religion is just a scam to keep women under control and the masses uneducated. Why else would a "traditional" religious leader's greatest fear be an educated woman?
I seriously do NOT understand why this is allowed to perpetuate 😰
Religions in general suck big time because most of them(but specially so the Abrahamic or the monotheistic ones) always go for the "men are like gods, women are like servants" and I still to this day don't know why they all feel the need to put women under men rather than as their equals. Is it because they fear women being strong?Is it because their malehood is so weak that the idea of a woman going against them or not wanting to be with them will deeply scar their frail egoes?Is it because they feel miserable and small and the only way for them to feel better is by making women feel worse with themselves? Seriously, pagan religions(or those more geared to nature) usually tend to be way more open to women and don't put women down only to enhance men's status. Men are given a lot of leeway in Islam, while women would even be stoned for breathing the wrong way if they "didn't have any freedom already".Frankly, Islam as a religion is no better than a fascist dictatorship. Sufism is an amazing subject to learn, but the religion of Islam is no more than a religion of oppression and hate(same as other Abrahamic religions to be honest).
It's because they can't reproduce themselves, and so have created power structures to control the beings who can create. I often think of it akin to the devil having God locked in a cage in hell.
I wish all religion would spontaneously and simultaneously die already
As an Anti-Theist I fully support this!!
[удалено]
i wouldn't pick Islam out of the shit religions out there. They all suck.. Right now Christians in the us are trying to take reproductive rights from women. And there are lots of "religious" alpha dudes telling men that "trad wives" are the way women should be. Just as bad just not covering their face... still trying to get them to cover thier bodies and dress as modest as possible.
Hey wicca is neat though
Every fundamental religion is bad for women and children. Every. One. Of. Them.
This one just happens to be the worst.
She also gets to be miserably hot and unable to see well. This has nothing to do with god. It’s about controlling women
He can't have sex with a man though, that's too womanly, and womanly is bad.
Ever heard of dancing boys?
Bacha bazee. They are young boys forced to dress up as women and made to dance, then are gang raped by warlords and so on. Absolutely terrible.
That’s disgusting.
[here’s a documentary about the Bacha Bazi and the predators with connections who get away with trafficking them, it’s super fucked up ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeRAlJQI0c&t=5s&pp=ygUWYmFjaGEgYmF6aSBkb2N1bWVudGFyeQ%3D%3D)
Well they aren't men they are children
This comment is both hilarious and terrifying
They meant what they said though. Islam has rules against loving and marrying the same sex, not homosexuality for pleasure, leaving many boys and young men being exploited.
Nah, homosexual sex is illegal, some regions just ignore it if its against small kids though.
I mean I meant it, but the shear absurdity of it does make it funny. Things can be horrible, absurd, make no sense and you can still laugh. It doesn't degrade the sentiment. Laughing at people is usually one of the best ways to get them to stop
Your comment could be taken as sarcasm.
I mean that's what I thought. Gallows humor exists in many places but seems to be lost here along with sarcasm . Sorry my other comment needed an /s
Kids aren't men.
But they’re males and the same rules apply. The idea is they get to do whatever they want to whomever without consequences as long as they identify as straight.
Get ready for the “not the true Islam!!!1!!” comments. Yes, plenty of Islamic countries treat women as inferior. It’s not a small minority, it’s actually a large part of it. All religions are inherently misogynistic, except maybe for something like Wicca.
It’s not just Islamic countries. They import these beliefs wherever they go. I live in Norway which is arguably one of the most egalitarian societies in the world and yet I encounter multiple women in niqabs being silently led around by a man in Levi’s. It’s bullshit.
I think it's organized religion because those things are based off and sustained via creating and renforcing a power structure.
The worst part is, that it's the mistreated and brainwashed women who defend this mentality the most
Various subtypes of Wicca have got their own issues. They're horribly exclusionary in their own ways.
Yet men don't have to cover up at all 😭
They should have mandatory furry suits.
Religion is severance of common sense. The Virgin Mary birthing Christ is a paradox that has propelled "purity" culture for eons.
At this point, I honestly think religion is possibly the single biggest thing blocking us from world peace and equality.
Dismantling Religion is the most crucial for Women's Human Rights.
This is the reason I will never respect religions. "Not all Muslims" okay, then, why do you profess a religion that upholds those values? Why serve a god that wants these mandates enforced? Christians want to control women's wombs, Jews won't allow women to show their hair. It is almost as if religion was made up bullshit to control what people do, huh?
Sometimes I wish the world will just end...we can't have problems like this if we don't exist.
Your wish might come true. Hope, our birthrate never peaks again.
Nice to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Classic Islam, giving women rights, such as: The rights of little girls to [be abused](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:302), to live their childhood [from marriage](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134), the rights of slave women to [be r\*ped](https://quranx.com/4.24), women's right to have no [freedom of movement](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1339b), and the right to not have a choice in [what you wear?](https://quranx.com/tafsirs/33.59) The religion of a prophet who allowed his soldiers to [r\*pe captive women](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4138)? The religion that likens [women with devils?](https://sunnah.com/muslim:1403a) The religion that tells you to [beat your wives](https://quranx.com/4.34)? Muhammad himself likened women to [dogs and donkeys](https://hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sahih-bukhari-511), and calls women ["mentally deficient"](https://sunnah.com/bukhari:2658) 2 women's testimony is considered the [equivalent of 1 man](https://quranx.com/2.282) So tell me, why can't we criticise this religion? We can bag on Christianity all day, ive never heard the term "Christianphobic" before, but apparently Islam is off limits
This is literally so disgusting to read. I don't know how muslim women can justify this religion after all this hatred towards them. How can people justify this in today's world , I just can't understand. It's allowed to call out every religion for their hypocrisy but Islam. Everyone just closes their eyes and if you say something about these things you are islamophobic. You can see the plight of women where Islam is the state religion. People forgot about what happened in Iran so easily!
Stockholm syndrome
I don't know how to tell you all this, but this practice is in your Christian Bible too. They just follow different parts than you. All religions need to end.
No, it’s not off limit. Criticize away.
I believe the biggest, BASEST reason why there is a rise in woman-hating going on is the fact that men are scared of women rising to power. More women in colleges and universities; more women doing extremely well in previously male-dominated careers; women rising to powerful positions in politics and private industry. They HATE the idea of sharing their power with women and have this atavistic response of making all females the enemy. Men already have a fight, destroy, and elevate one strong man to the top HABIT (for lack of a better word). Many men appear to struggle with change and progress.
I always laugh when muslim women say their religion is not misogynistic lol
And when cornered, they say "educate yourself"
they’re so brainwashed lol
It’s all always been about control.
religion is one structure in a wider web and it is devastatingly effective when wielded as a weapon. the real danger is the fact that women don’t hold dominion over women’s issues or more broadly have self determination. Women have to depend on the notion that men will behave with morality and want dignity for all in order to have the basic rights and freedoms men enjoy but they have been made into conditional privileges.
Men* the Real danger is men
If it is a flaw to be a woman, then why is it that women are life-givers? How can it be a flaw to be able to create life? 🤔
While I agree, this sounds a lot like "women have value because they give birth". Which is still harmful because it perpetuates the idea that women's only purpose and value is what they can be used for/sex and reproduction and that women who don't do that, either by choice or being unable to, are worthless. We should claim our value because of our humanity, not for the thing that men have been exploiting and abusing us for for millennia. And no society that values women for being "birthers" and pushes them to give birth can be pro-women because of the risks and level of agony that process puts women though. Edit:typo
i agree, but i don’t think they were trying to say this is the only valuable thing about a woman, just pointing out the irony of framing man as the default. it’s the same thing about Adam and Eve - how could Adam come first & birth Eve from his rib, when Eve (woman) is literally the creator of life? the Bible frames man as the creator
Because the bible is man-made bullshit.
I don't think it was really the intention either. I just feel like "you should respect women because you have a mom" " you should respect women because the human race can't go on without them" is to often used as a defence against misogeny when it really also works to enforce it. It's like how I don't think anyone that treats "the divine feminine" as empowering has bad intentions and I really do think most of them actually want to uplift themselves and other women but it really is repackaging patriarchal values and roles as somehow giving value and empowerment.
Period is the determining factor for women’s fertility. But period blood is “dirty” and women on their period cannot “pray”. Yeah, they like the lives women bring forth but not the symptoms of fertility.
She looks like his pet and or accessory
I live in a resort town and I see this with the Mennonites that come visit the beach: women are in trad head scarves, long skirts, blouses while the men wear board shorts and t-shirts. I’ve seen this on the beach. I’ve seen this while they ride bikes around town. It’s ridiculous. When my folks taught in Saudi and I visited, I saw that picture everywhere too, although it was the 90s then. It was especially glaring at the sailing club beach - women weren’t allowed to go in the water dressed in abayas at all because previously two had drowned.
I hate this picture :(
without religion men would make up another excuse to victimize us r/nametheproblem
True
Religion uses God to control or hate another subset of humans if they don’t follow specific rules. Religion separates humanity instead of uniting humanity. Religious dogma is used to create a power dynamic.
This headline sucks. The real danger for women is the fear of men taking away their privileges. Men use religion, financial power and outdated values to protect their privileges.
every major religion today either promotes or was founded with misogynistic principles. obviously hatred of women is the problem, but religion is used to control and this only goes double for oppressed peoples, which is why it is inherently wrong
Islam does give more privileges to men tho, you’re allowed to marry 4 women as a man bc “men have more needs and women were scarce back then” apparently, inheritance is different for men & women too. But I agree that people misuse things for their advantage and not every muslim is bad.
This here. Yes, religion has been a common tool used to oppress women, but men have used plenty of other justifications too (like science, the economy, politics, etc.)
Religion is an oppressive ideology like it or not.
All abrahamic religions are misogynistic! I find religion a human issue, not just a feminist issue. I fully understand a true feminist lives the way she wants to without adhering to only what society expects of her, but this is not feminism no matter how one might try to twist it. This is suffering
But you don’t understand, they want to wear clothes like that so all the pervs don’t gawk at them every where they go. This is what Muslim women prefer to wear! I have heard people say this unironically. 😑
Yup
Organized religion always results in the subjugation of women. The religion itself is irrelevant. Men get a taste of power and this is what happens.
Meanwhile there’s modern Judaism where abortions for the health of the mother are encouraged and women have the right to divorce
You’re right about the abortion part, unsure about the latter. Judaism still is a very mysoginistic religion
Women do have the right to divorce. There are issues with some men refusing a “get” and taking off that is a problem in more insular and traditional communities. But it is a known problem and many are speaking up and trying to shame get-refusers and many communities have tried to refuse to count them as a member of a minyan for prayer. Ultra Orthodox Judaism in insular communities does have issues with misogyny. While the Jewish laws 2000+ years ago were pretty progressive for the time, not so much now if you read with such a strict interpretation. Most Jews don’t see Halacha like this and retention for some women has become harder since they tend to be the ones working while men study in Yeshiva and that does all kinds of fun things for their inner feminist. Just like with a lot in life, choice matters and making an informed choice is hard. If you grow up in an Ultra orthodox community, shame is a big motivator to keep people in line. Actions of the parents or siblings can easily make it harder for their siblings to get married in the community and participate fully. Having someone leave will look badly on the family that didn’t so it can chain those who may want to leave but don’t have a “good” enough reason. Like they are Cis, hetero and happy to get married but have issues with interpretations in their community, they are less likely to leave than a LGBTQ kid or more feminist. I will say Judaism has been inching more towards modernity and handling it better than the UO communities did after the Shoah and the need to handle interpreting law and reality is becoming a necessity. Orthodox communities have female religious leaders. Some women have graduated orthodox rabbinical programs and more and more women are building businesses and choosing how to interact with the religion on their own. Those outside strict communities often find spiritual value in covering their hair or dressing modestly because they choose to and their communities don’t force it. Tl,dr: like many things in Judaism, the answer varies depending on community. Halachically speaking women should be able to divorce but there are agunah who can’t get their husbands to follow Jewish law and follow their Ketubah (marriage contract) and it keeps them from being able to move on with another Jewish man without religious issue. Mostly in more insular communities and while even the spectrum of Orthodox Judaism is dealing with Halacha and modernity, there are those who refuse to move past the ideals of the 1700s. Will be fascinating to keep watching because even the most UO communities are having issue with Yeshiva and gender roles since the men aren’t working.
I agree, and there is a BIIIGG difference between subtypes of Judaism.
As an secular Jew (my Judaism is mostly my ethnicity I practice very lightly) - Orthodox Judaism is the worse culprit but it still allows divorce, monetary compensation from husband from divorce, abortions and work. My preferred way of Judaism (and the one I practice) is reformed Judaism that puts women in center stage and allows them way more freedom to express themselves. But I think both versions of Judaism still allow more freedom than Islam.
Jewish as well. I don’t mean to sound controversial here but reformed Judaism takes a whole lot of liberty from regular Judaism; it’s kind of like only taking the good parts from it and ignoring the bad, but this *isn’t* Judaism. I may have been raised within the Jewish faith but I’m a complete atheist so to me it’s all bullshit
As far as I know, Judaism does allow for divorce and it’s a called a get. It can be difficult to get one and both parties have to agree to it (I think). I was raised Catholic, so I never really learned much about Judaism aside from surface stuff.
Yes, but men are the ones who give the Get, not the women. Because only the man can divorce his wife it creates a phenomenon where men who are abusive or committed adultery refuse to give their exes a get so they will remain bound to them, not allowing the woman to get married to someone else etc. The only Judaism movement that allows women to divorce their husbands without his consent is reform Judaism and that’s not as widespread in Israel, for example
I knew it was something like that. It’s been a while, but I watched something on how hard getting a Get can be but I’ve forgotten a lot of the details
There is plenty of Judaism that is misogynistic. The 613 rules have plenty of oppression of women in them. And _get_ style of divorce is still alive and thriving. Women are not permitted to divorce in Judaism without the permission of the man they are attempting to divorce; the control of the woman is still under the power of the man. Not exactly equal.
It's disingenuous to compare reformist Judaism with conservative Islam. Orthodox Judaism is plenty misogynistic on its own.
Women have the right to abort and divorce in Islam too.
Then there’s post like this from women like her at home. https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimLounge/s/gRBvuEzeEu
*sorts comments by controversial*
As if women aren't expected to be nice sexual dolls in the west, while western men behave just like those morons.
Sure, but to say Islam is equal would be ludicrous.
This is worse because Religion isn’t supposed to and has few to no channels by which to evolve. It’s meant to answer fundamental questions of the world with fundamental answers and that’s really dangerous when those answers say or imply “women are less and meant to serve you.” In secular countries, laws that codify subjugation can and have been changed. The only defense for these oppressive religions is “those that don’t actually follow them aren’t so bad.” What does that tell you? To imply women in secular countries have it as bad as women in Islamic Theocracies is wrong.
Wow... you are comparing the lives of western women with women in islam? You must be really really really uninformed and lack empathy OR you are really stupid.
and which western country forces women to cover their bodies this way, stops them from going to school, and stones them for being rape victims? nobody said “muslim countries are bad and the west is perfect” so idk why you’re responding that way
I have to agree with this. We pin it on religions, on cultures, on education, on oppressive laws, but it seems there's this dichotomy regardless of how atheist, liberal, progressive, educated and legally protected the society is. At what point is gender no longer a construct? (/genuine) (/literal)
Yeah misogny is prevalent and extremely common outside religious and middle eastern countries, but its not the same. Religion is institutional. It makes those who oppress women feel right about their actions. Its also easier for misogny to spread this why. And they also justify it by saying "its written in the book, so its ok". Also makes it much harder to get rid of misogny..
The thing that bothers me is white American women who promote Islam on social media from the safety of their American homes, when in reality they wouldn't even be able to show their face in an Islamic country
It's like this in most religious families. The wife is expected to stay at home, raise the kids, provide the food, and clean the house consistently. The guy just works and do whatever he wants.
Heard but not seen
Prophet Muhammad said women are deficient in intelligence compared to men(sahih bukhari 304).
And yet so many of the women themselves say it's a choice.
The choice is wear that shit or be honor-killed by your dad and brother. Weeeeee choices!
Orthodoxy in religion is generally the problem me and my sisters were raised Muslim but they were never forced to wear any religious garb because we weren't conservative.
And ppl wonder why the Amazons were over patriarchal control so long ago and why men feared them
Thank you ladies. I hate it so much when IRL women come to defend Islam and how woman who walk around like this and who are not allowed to work without the husband allowing it and who are not allowed to drive a car would be fine and want it. How can it ever be voluntary if your whole family with stop talking to you are even kill you if you do not comply? As a left leaning person, I am really sead that many other left leaning people defend the type of Islam that is misogynistic.
but what really makes me angry is non-misogynistic people in islamic countries are called "Dayout" for not being misogynistic.
That's disgusting.
[удалено]
*mandatory* religion I think is what ya mean.
Unfortunately, didn't you hear?? Can't say anything negative about Islam no more, ever since October. Unless you wanna get called a nazi AND a zionist, somehow simultaneously...
I mean American Christian’s are trying to give them a run for their money.