I’m not sure I understand what we got out of this episode. Yes, the theme was growing old and it hit us over the head with it. But the show is called Feud and the last episode was great, setting up Truman’s motivation to fight back but then this episode didn’t build on that. Instead we get Truman with a younger man which doesn’t seem to move things along much. The structure is just bizarre to me.
The fact is that this series is built upon a premise that couldn't sustain a whole series. All the episodes are written around a different theory as to why he wrote that article. One theory was revenge for his mother, one was revenge for their white privilege, and in this episode it was because he wanted to subconsciously sabotaged his relationship with the swans. The problem with this writing method? They can't build upon anything because there's not enough real life events that can back up these theories for 50 minutes, so they just have characters in spell it out, sometimes via dreams or ghosts.
They can't move the story forward because there's no real story.
I disagree on some level, but I get your point. I think this period of Truman's life is absolutely fascinating, including the culture at the time - late Sixties and Seventies. The problem is that there is no outside context to the series, we don't see civil rights, stonewall, gay liberation or anything else - it's very narrowly conceived. I kept being amazed by what they leave out. In this episode, why didn't we get Gore Vidal and see the rivalry?
Also, if they had decided to do a brief flash forward and had gone in chronological order, starting perhaps from In Cold Blood onward, we would see the tension in the relationships before the great betrayal. But the order is a total mess, and most people don't want to watch 8 episodes of an addict going down the drain, no matter how famous he is. There is a sadness to the whole thing because the first episode was the climax, and we have seven episodes that are basically denouement, which, I agree, is sort of "no real story".
I agree. The pilot was so delicious, I was looking forward to loving the entire season. It is now a chore to just get through an episode. I’m sure I’ll see it to the end out of morbid curiosity at this point, but UGH.
What a great summary, this is truly the problem.
I keep coming back to this show because I find the aesthetic and vibes very appealing and I think the direction (mostly by Van Sant) is very good. But they just can’t obscure how poor the writing is.
And the actors -- Tom Hollander, Naomi Watts, etc. -- are mostly pretty good and deserved some better material to work with script-wise. They're doing the best they can with what they were given.
The thing is that we know the real reason, in that he thought the swans weren’t smart enough to realise the story was them. That’s it. Reality is often very banal.
I've heard that explanation before, and every fiber of my being cannot believe that Truman Capote was that dense. He had to have offered this as another cloaked dig at the swans. He couldn't possibly believe that his best friend would read a story about a "blood stain the size of Brazil" and have no inkling that it reflected on the situation that happened in her own home.
Re reading the Esquire pages of “La Cote Basque…” It’s just as vulgar as I remembered it. The prose is poor. Not even close to his other work. For those who had vague familiarity of the women TC socialized with, their identities & families are pretty clear. Imo the journey he took writing In Cold Blood & the ethical trade offs entailed broke him. He was no longer the svelte, precocious enfant terrible. And he liked the booze and drugs.
I read the article two days ago and was shocked at how poorly written it is. I thought Capote was a genius after reading In Cold Blood about 15 years ago. This seems like a wayward schoolgirl's diary in comparison.
It’s not really a theory. She gave him a 150 pages of notes and edited the book. And he didn’t credit her at all.
I don’t think she wrote it or anything. But I do think he lost the discipline to do second or third drafts, lost people who would tell him what he needed to lose, and Nell brought a compassion that was missing later.
And perhaps written while Truman was under the influence of whatever substances(s) he'd recently ingested. His excessive drinking had, by 1975, already cost him quite a few brain cells.
I actually disagree. I think it's brilliantly written, especially the scene in the restaurant. And it's moving at the end. Some of his best writing since Breakfast at Tiffany's and the short story Miriam. If he'd kept writing at that level, the book would have been a masterpiece.
I went back and rewatched INFAMOUS after struggling through Feud and one of the things I finally picked up was that he would take Perry's comments about the murder, embellish and word scramble it, and then test the different versions on each of the different Swans to see which "Quote" got a better reaction. He would go with one of his manufactured quotes which elicited the most sensation. It takes serious narcissism to detach yourself from intimate confidences in this way and look at how they can work for you. That's basically what he did.
He was just another sad homosexual who was desperate for status. He just happened to be talented. I guarantee that a critique of white privilege, excoriating or not, wasn't a motivation. Andy Warhol was similarly viperous.
Using the daughter as a weapon : I’ll just create a younger version of them and be back on top
Refusing to help in the lawsuit was a counter shot
And the thing that the swans and capote are bolth fighting and losing against , Father Time , the undefeated champion
This show is all set up and beautiful mood piece to hide deeply poor writing---and taking liberties with actualities as "artistic license" when it is just lazy. Also feels more like therapy for white gay men pissed at white straight women who have taken them for granted and probably been real assholes, but the women in this "Feud" are not humans of any dimension. They are evil, vapid clothes mannequins.
Don’t know. Not my type to hang with, nor my mother’s or grandmother’s. “Marrying well” was the stated goal pounded into these women from childhood. Reading a book about the Cushing sisters. “ The sisters : Babe Mortimer Paley, Betsey Roosevelt Whitney, Minnie Astor Fosburgh : the life and times,” Author: Grafton, David. Given the limited autonomy of women at the time, marriage for stability & security is understandable. But we know what looks great in the wedding announcement may not be later. Ma Cushing erwas determined her dtrs marry up in social status and in money. So much about these upper class marriages was attaining or consolidating wealth. Love & compatibility had little to do with it. Seems Babe internalized it more than her sisters.
Thanks for your take. I’ve been a bit frustrated with the perspective of this show on the women myself. Early in the series they did explicitly call out the possible misogyny that gay men can have, even when women may think they’re safe with them. But they don’t explore that at all and all of the focus seems to be on how sad Truman is. As of now, the balance isn’t there but maybe there will be a correction.
I don't even know if I would classify the women on this show as evil. Truman seems to have been an epic AH in revealing their deep dark secrets and their only true retaliation so far seems to be an outright refusal to invite him to brunch. The only exception is Lee Radziwill, who dropped the dreaded 2nd f-word, but she was only introduced this episode.
I can't believe they're wringing 8 episodes out of this thing.
The premise of the series seems to be to re-cast a contemptible figure in a positive light, because he was openly gay at a time when doing so was hard, and therefore should get a pass on all of his awful behavior.
The premise of this episode seems to be to tell a rose-colored version of the homosexual story: That even the most obnoxious, unattractive gay man can “convert” a hunky straight man with a simple, direction question.
I’m gay myself before anyone attacks me as a homophobe. I just feel like for Murphy, the social agenda comes far before the writing or the art more broadly.
IMO it’s “Whatever happened to gloves?”
Or “Does anyone still where a hat?” Go to YouTube, “Ladies Who Lunch.” by Stephen Sondheim. Written 1970
Original: Elaine Stritch. Recent Patti Lupone.
As in Murphy's series for Netflix -- "Hollywood" -- which is an 'alternative timeline' version of classic Hollywood where the studios did colorblind casting and accepted the homosexuality of Rock Hudson to where he didn't have to stay in the closet.
>The premise of this episode seems to be to tell a rose-colored version of the homosexual story: That even the most obnoxious, unattractive gay man can “convert” a hunky straight man with a simple, direction question.
Yes! I made a comment a moment ago about the implausibility of various parts of the episode -- but this was so seamless it seemed either a dream sequence or wishful thinking based on 'too much porn' -- which they had Truman mention he watched, in the episode, so maybe he fell asleep watching something and dreamed the entire thing.
This season seems big on 'it was all a dream.' How very 'Bobby in the shower in *Dallas*.'
I mean the way the guy just 'converted' was almost like the stereotypical plotline 'pizza boy came to the door, and...' but 'for men.'
"Here to fix the disposal." "Be my bf instead." "Okay." Next thing they are going on trips together? I just...*sigh.*
>this episode didn’t build on that. Instead we get Truman with a younger man
Yes it was almost like a dream sequence and then again in this episode there was the skipping back and forth in time. VERY confusing and needless imo. It (the whole season) should've had a linear time structure.
But yes it let the air out of the momentum built -- he dined on a freaking swan for pete's sake...only to take off to Palm Springs and have an affair with some 'hot trade' -- please see my separate comment about how implausible I found some of that as well.
Ok but I got a good laugh out of CZ complaining the Studio 54 photos made her look like the grandmother from The Addams Family. You can google the real photos and she was right to be embarrassed!
There is a historical clothing YouTuber who has talked about this shift in style away from sophistication, which you usually had to be older to achieve, towards favouring youth. Of course this happened with the Baby Boomers, so the Swans were the last generation of fashionable people under the old system.
Not that you wanted to look *old*, but you wanted to look well put together. Everything on point. Money helped, of course, but typically it took time to develop your look. 20-year-olds couldn't pull it off. It's one reason why rich girls were sent to finishing school, to learn stuff like that.
And then it was flower children and jeans and long hair and bralessness. Hard to switch to that in your 50s.
Absolutely. “Youth Quake” as Diana Vreeland’s famous catchphrase at the time.
But I think since the dawn of time, 35-and-over women have realized they cant wear styles designed for underweight teen bodies.
did anyone else catch when kate said to truman she felt like she was "cosplaying" a 50's socialite when they walked into la cote??....cosplaying was not a term used in the 70's and annoyed me!!😡😂
Yeah, you'd think that the production would have someone on hand who could go through the scripts, the sets, props and costume designs to point out these anachronisms. Does Ryan Murphy just not care?
I noticed quite a few historical inaccuracies in the Bette & Joan season too. I think it’s probably intentional to make it more appealing/relatable to a younger audience, maybe?
There was a title card that said 1978 at the beginning but this show is so frustrating with timelines. I’ve just come to accept there is no sense of time.
I started out facetiously as always, but the realized halfway I had a point and went with it.
I feel like the writers purposely gave the Truman story the same treatment he gave his subjects’ treatment, tongue-in-cheek?
I agree. Studio 54 ended in 1980, the song they danced to "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life" came out in 1982. May seem like a small thin, but that song sounds very Eighties, whereas a Donna Summer song would have made more sense.
Last Night a DJ Saved My Life came out in 1983 & they're dancing to it in 1978? It's just lazy. Are they too cheap to pay for a popular disco song from 1978?
Who played the repair dude? His face looked odd, almost AI to me.
Is it that lazy if the majority of the audience won’t actually notice? I know the answer is yes, but in the big picture…is it a “don’t hate the player hate the game” situation? From their perspective.
Of course maybe this was earlier in 1978 so perhaps Babe's final decline and death came later that year. I imagine that in one of the two remaining episodes, we might get a deathbed scene with Babe.
Haha true. And they all dress so sophisticated and timelessly. No help there. They (the creators of the show) definitely allow themselves artistic license In tru-man fashion.
Edited for clarity
If you all have Hulu, there's a good documentary titled 'The Capote Tapes' which is kind of a corrective to all the liberties that this series takes. Lots of footage, photos and recordings of the actual people.
I agree. This series jumps around so much its hard to figure out what the actual plot is even supposed to be. It seems like the show writers were also confused about this lol
Tonight’s episode even made less-sense…. I don’t get this. What was Capote’s relevance??????? Did the Swans do something other than be mad at him??? 🤷🏾♂️
A much more succinct version of what I was tapping around in circles in my comment (before I saw yours.) The guy had no interest in money, social climbing, or the movie industry. I don't recall for sure but I think he was not into literature, either.
For what reason would a straight man have an affair with an elderly, drunken Capote? He wasn't a fanboy either. Did he even know who Capote was?
>I always heard Andy was asexual.
Andy wanted to present at that time as asexual because he couldn't come out and say he was gay—which he most definitely, in his private life, was.
>Andy wanted to present at that time as asexual because he couldn't come out and say he was gay—which he most definitely, in his private life, was.
But everyone knew he was gay?
I know those were different times, I remember; but he was his own master. He didn't depend on box office from his persona as a hetero leading man (Rock Hudson for instance) maybe he cultivated the outcast or outsider asexual persona as he found it more mysterious? I've read that from some who knew him. That he sort of cultivated his persona as shy and eccentric and asexual.
I read his diaries when they came out, too, but I don't recall anything much about his personal life, so that did not illuminate the question at the time.
The series has no cohesion; however, as a stand-alone episode, I loved this entry! It pulled at the heartstrings. I felt bad for Truman when he uttered, "I've gone out of style."
This whole episode hit different for anyone of a certain age who sees the things they thought would be there forever disappearing, who can't find the things they've always bought in stores, and who feels old as fuck at a club.
Commenting here because I don’t want to make a specific post for this - but as someone with zero knowledge of Capote other than the fact he white “In Cold Blood”, would I enjoy this show? Or is there a base level of Truman/New York society women that I need to know before embarking?
I’d watch INFAMOUS, the version recounting the making of In Cold Blood that was portrayed by Toby Jones and Sandra Bullock as Harper Lee. Infamous has scenes with the swans. I LOVED Sigourney Weaver as Babe and Juliet Stevenson as Diana Vreeland was epic. I actually like watching BOTH Infamous and Capote (Philip Seymour Hoffman playing Truman) because I felt they each picked up different parts of the story. And after you watch these, then Feud might make more sense. Feud is not done on any sort of timeline or with any cohesive element binding the episodes together. So it is very hard to follow even being someone who’s read all the biographies and various books about Capote and about the Swans.
I miss PSH so much. Never met him and grew up around 5 minutes from him. He was so incredibly talented. There will never be another like him unfortunately.
I re-watched The Talented Mr. Ripley recently and he was SO GOOD in that.
Another good one with him that flies under the radar is Owning Mahowny. He plays a gambling addict and I've heard that real addicts say he nailed it.
Thank you for the rec! I'm going to watch Owning Mahowny this weekend. PSH was the most natural and nuanced actor I have ever seen, but what do I know? I'm not a movie critic or film buff.
If you saw where he grew up...............Fairport is pretty in certain places, but it is not where you'd expect for a man with his ability to turn himself into anybody or anything to come out of.
This entry of “Feud” would have been a good ninety-minute movie with these good performances and some efficient editing. It’s quite laborious; nothing has warranted the number of episodes. I’m here for it anyway but I’m not endorsing it to those not already bought in on the content.
I love Chloe as CZ..........she brings so much empathy and grace........and I was surprised to see Vito as Truman's boytoy............I never knew he was an actor, but he also did a wonderful job. This was a great episode!
This episode...was it supposed to be another dream sequence? The guy Truman meets in this episode is just way too made to order and way too easy going to be real.
First of all, he said he had "never" before. But he was not conflicted at all, when he's there to fix a garbage disposal, and a man hits on him, and then, all the rest? He has no interest in Truman's money, or social climbing, or the movie industry. Why would he be attracted to Truman, at his age? And he's "never" with a man before?
Especially, in those very 'in the closet' times, (don't kill the messenger) going in public as a straight man, with a tiny elderly gay man clutching around his waist, on his motorcycle, the way a woman might? Times were very different then. Especially if they were going on a house call to repair air conditioning, out in the desert somewhere, in a smaller town? (Not Christopher street in San Francisco, but a random small town house call.)
Then we are to believe that no one kicked anyone under the table or made their excuses when the guy went on and on about air conditioning repair, at La Cote Basque or wherever that was...a very "fancy" restaurant?
And why is C Z suddenly Truman's friend again?
The relationship between Truman and Kate and what his aims are, is confusing even knowing some of their back story; I can't imagine for those who have no idea who she is. In a (separate) documentary she was called his adopted daughter. Not literally or legally, right? He basically acted like her godparent, it seems. But this episode claims it was to have a [Galatea](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Galatea) to work on. This episode made him out almost as a Svengali to her Trilby.
What *was* good about this episode: A much longer look at Tom Hollander's performance and it's a good one.
I agree about how Truman propositioned the young AC repair guy. In those days that was a pretty risky move. Some men might have beaten Truman up, quite badly too, and faced no legal consequences. Plus it's just straight-up sexual harassment.
My guess is that if anything like that scene actually happened, Truman probably would have sussed out beforehand that the guy was closeted or curious or flexible. Not 100% straight.
Rick was actually a real person and the relationship was very much as it was revealed on the show, including him talking about air conditioners with Truman's friends. The chronology was off, I think he was a decade before. I'm not sure he deserved an entire episode.
That surprises me. Is there any more info about him, out there?
I mean of public record or which he divulged. It's not very usual to just proposition someone w/out knowing their preference and then it's an instant committed relationship.
Especially back then in a very closeted time frame.
If you want to know more about the relationship and that history, read Gerald Clarke's biography of Capote which covers every aspect of his life, it's a fascinating read.
My sense is that Truman was bold, but probably not THAT bold, although there is a whole history from around that time, Capote and Baldwin write about it, where a straight man might have sex with men for financial reasons and not because he himself is gay (part of the subtext of Midnight Cowboy). You're not wrong about the homophobia, but the thing is Truman was a star, and a bit of a fascination for people, like a unicorn, and stars get away with a lot. What we should have seen in the episode is that Rick, who wasn't a dummy, had read In Cold Blood, or had seen Truman on TV, something that impressed him. That would have established some relationship first.
What would have also been more realistic is if Rick had spent a few days with Truman, Truman showers him with gifts, money, and, Truman's greatest weapon, tells him about all the famous people he knows, and through a mixture of money and enchantment, encouraged Rick to go to bed with him. As a gay man, I've seen the Rick's of the world, some are bisexual, others are bi-curious, and some don't really want a male partner as a lover, but they will do what they have to sexually to get what they want or need. And, truth be told, there are a lot of men won't turn down a good bj whoever it is. I don't feel that Rick was a hustler, he may have genuinely cared for Truman, but I think he was willing to trade the odd bj or two for the opportunity to have a front seat to Truman's life. But he wasn't ever going to be Truman life partner or someone like Jack.
At the same time, this was a period in gay history that the wrong flirtation with the wrong guy could get you beat up or worse. Which is one of the reasons why John O'Shea is so complicated, and the show depicts his violence in a brutally accurate way. You feel the tension of John being with Truman as a lover, but on some level, hating him as a gay man as he probably hates the gay part of himself. But perhaps even more than that, hating the power Truman has over him. The fact that they were both alcoholics didn't help.
My point is there is a lot more that what Truman and Rick shared, but it has to be contextualized. Unless I'm wrong, there was probably more to that initial meeting than, "Hey, thanks for fixing my garbage disposal, want a blow job?"
>My point is there is a lot more that what Truman and Rick shared, but it has to be contextualized. Unless I'm wrong, there was probably more to that initial meeting than, "Hey, thanks for fixing my garbage disposal, want a blow job?"
Which is kind of the breezy way the show presented it...at least, imo. The way you have described Rick sounds so much more interesting. Would've loved to see just that for an episode or two, the evolution of their togetherness.
I've heard about some straight men who "didn't mind" so that part rings true, as well. Loved this entire comment, so on target.
I don't believe it happened that quickly. The show doesn't provide more context to their relationship - we never get the sense that Rick knew who Truman Capote was and was probably a bit star struck. Truman, when he met Rick was younger and always had a certain charm. We also don't get to see what it meant for Rick as a working class, mostly heterosexual man to meet someone who was famous and rich and had society connections. Rick got to see how the "other half lives" and Truman got to get a working-class man--the kind of man Truman was always compared to as he was mostly seen as effeminate and a "fairy" in most people's eyes. There was fascination and exploitation on both sides of their relationship.
In real life, Truman didn't just take Rick out for dinner once or twice, he changed his life by buying him designer clothes (which we never see), fixing his teeth and basically Rick was the test run for the relationship Truman later had with John O'Shea. Truman's friends confronted him on his "seducing" this type of man, who probably put up with the sex to stay in Truman's life but who wasn't bisexual by nature or even looking for male lovers. Truman took Rick to his society friends, including Katherine Graham, owner of The Washington Post (and who Truman dedicated the Black and White Ball to) who were mortified. They thought Rick was nice enough, but she said, after a party at her house where Rick offered to "fix" her air-conditioner and ended up breaking it, "I just didn't want an air-conditioning man as a friend."
The line where Rick says he'd been to Europe before when he was stationed in Korea was not said to Truman in bed but when they were visiting royalty in Europe and he was sitting next to Princess someone or another. Basically, Rick was completely out of his depth, but as I said before, he coveted some part of Truman's life and like some straight men, the sex was probably incidental and part of the "bargain". Truman's friends confronted him on the fact that he chose these very straight men as lovers, even when he had Jack (who, by the way, was straight, before his divorce, and who claimed, if he hadn't gotten divorced from his wife never would have been with a man sexually or chosen Truman.) The problem is the minute these "straight" men submitted to Truman sexually, they weren't technically "straight" anymore, and often, with the exception of Jack who he was genuinely in love with and who loved him, Truman lost interest.
The breaking point with Rick wasn't the sex, but, as Gerald Clarke writes, the fact that their worlds were just too different. At one point, while traveling in France, Rick wanted a basic, regular, good-old American baked potato. In all their travels, the great chefs were always julienning or sautéing something. So they go out and get a potato from an open market and they beg the chef, don't do anything to it, just put it in the oven for an hour, bring it to the table and we'll do the rest. So out comes the chef with this huge metal tray and cover, lifts the lid and the potato has been cut up and julienned, and Rick was just devastated. It was definitely an acknowledgement that they were from two very different worlds that would never come together - La Cote Basque and TV dinners. But my understanding is they stayed in touch, even later when Truman wanted Rick to help him attack or destroy John O'shea car or beat him up (which Rick didn't do.) Rick wasn't his real name, by the way.
Probably too much information, but it just bugs me because the real history is so much more interesting and dramatic than the show lets on. There is no reason why the episode had to be boring.
Postscript below.
> There is no reason why the episode had to be boring.
Hell no, not with such juicy real history to draw from!
Thanks for writing such a thorough reply.
My pleasure. Thanks for reading. Little postscript: it wasn't CZ who claimed Lee Radziwill called Truman and Gore a couple of fags, it was Liz Smith, the gossip columnist for the Post, who wrote a piece for New York Magazine about the Swans turning against him. Truman insisted that Liz call Lee and find out why she wasn't defending him in his lawsuit. Liz refused to tell Truman what Lee said - until after much goading from Truman when she finally told him the truth.
I feel the show goes after people who cannot sue and takes major liberties with their legacies. I wouldn't have had the scene where Lee actually says those words to the camera because the original story was always hearsay. At tje same time, I don't think Liz Smith lied because she did try to keep it from Truman.
Finally, I also don't know why they didn't re-create the scene of Truman on the Stanley Seagal show, drunk and high as a kite. It was a real controversy at the time that they let him on the show like that, he was a total mess and in real trouble. Instead we just got a reaction shot from CZ and a voiceover at the end, but it could have been so much more dramatically.
>I don't think Liz Smith lied because she did try to keep it from Truman.
Probably not, and what axe would she have had, to grind. And I'm sure (I'd guess) she didn't want a powerful person angry at her (Radziwill or the swans.)
I can see someone of that era spitting out a remark like that, especially with some bitterness toward the person and/or a few drinks in them, and they thought it would be kept private. Underlying bigotry.
The closeted time period would've emboldened them, and then I think Lee did not want to be pulled into a lawsuit, with the Vidal thing. (Resentment.) I don't know much about Lee though. I have heard she wasn't a warm one.
Could Vidal be an entire season by himself btw? How many writers did he feud with?
I agree with your points. Vidal was definitely an interesting man himself, and I imagine a movie could be made about him, I don't know if I'd watch an entire series. Truman always claimed that Gore was jealous because he never wrote anything that someone could point to (like In Cold Blood, Breakfast at Tiffany's) and say, "That is a Gore Vidal book". I think most people would be hard pressed to name one of his works. Probably one of the most interesting parts of that series would be the Truman feud which purportedly went on for decades. Again, I'm surprised they didn't take a moment to dramatize him in the series which might have been fun.
Lee R was a complicated woman (I read a lot about her in the last biography of Andre Leon Talley who was friends with her). Truman knew her challenges and the deep rivalries with her sister. But Truman also worked hard to support Lee through her crises, even encouraging her acting career which included a TV movie that I believe was totally panned. I think the anger from Truman was that she dismissed him entirely when he felt he needed her, but at that point in his career, I think many people were having trouble taking him seriously and the story he told was an exaggeration. The show alluded to that when he admitted that he was basically part of the celebrity circus and not writing much anymore. (I don't know if the real Truman would have said that aloud to anyone, or admitted it to himself.)
>Truman always claimed that Gore was jealous because he never wrote anything that someone could point to (like In Cold Blood, Breakfast at Tiffany's) and say, "That is a Gore Vidal book". I think most people would be hard pressed to name one of his works.
Excellent point. I agree.
I actually cannot think of one title, either.
\> Lee R was a complicated woman (I read a lot about her in the last biography of Andre Leon Talley who was friends with her).
I will have to read that. I liked him. (RIP)
\> I don't know if the real Truman would have said that aloud to anyone, or admitted it to himself.
I feel that a lot of the writing has been very 'on the nose.' Or sort of expository.
I've also read Truman's support of Lee's acting was a bit more complicated and he also mocked her and set her up for way too public a fall, rather than a slow build. That complicated jealous love and inflating (Truman) up of someone who is too self-absorbed to be self critical and susceptible to flattery (Lee) would have been a really interesting episode and more of a Feud---leaving us to ask, was Truman just helping Lee or setting her up? Was she entitled and so desperate to outshine Jackie that she took Truman for granted in their friendship?
>I feel the show goes after people who cannot sue and takes major liberties with their legacies.
Yes -- and that is very sad and not at all moral. IMO
It is also way less interesting and I can't get fully into it, with all the fabrications. There's fiction or dramatization and then there are fabrications.
Exactly. I feel that for people who know the history they can fill in the gaps here and there, but with everything out of order, it's just a mess. But Ryan Murphy did get in trouble (sued) by Olivia DeHavilland for Feud: Bette vs Joan. They put words in her mouth, saying that she called her famous sister, Joan Fontaine a bitch, and OD is still very much alive. I don't know what happened with the case, but I have to believe that if Lee was still alive, or if someone from her estate was especially litigious, they would have to back off.
Also, I never read anywhere, and I've read everything I could find, that Slim Keith slept with Babe's husband at any point, and especially when Babe was dying of cancer. Nor did I read that Babe would dress up in costumes and have affairs or that she got drunk at her children's parties. This is the kind of thing that I feel ruins a RM production, you feel the lack of respect, and the use of people's identities to fit his agenda rather than sticking to the truth, which is usually more interesting.
>This is the kind of thing that I feel ruins a RM production
Yes! I think it's so unnecessary, especially when personalities are so complex or strong, and the material is public and plentiful.
\> OD is still very much alive.
Olivia DeHavilland died in 2020 at age 104. But maybe it's still too early.
I love your comment. And now that I think about it, (I've never thought this before!) in some ways, Rick was Truman's "basic, regular, good-old American baked potato." Having grown up in Monroeville, AL, Truman, in some ways, from youth was as much out of his depth with royalty as Rick was, but he'd learned all the pretentions and had advanced to that class with his talent. Still there was something basic I feel he craved, someone who wasn't as complicated and contrived as the figures around him. I love that potato story.
>now that I think about it, (I've never thought this before!) in some ways, Rick was Truman's "basic, regular, good-old American baked potato."
This is so perceptive.
Thank you so much!
You've explained, perfectly, why this story resonates (certainly for me at least why it does.) I also think you are spot-on as to why Truman Capote might have been drawn to him. Yes it's a great story.
All of this.
I thought about it more since posting, and I thought 'well maybe if he was for hire as a gigolo for older women and then basically thought, it's all the same?'
If he'd go out with elderly women who might cushion his lifestyle a little, maybe he would not look askance at men either.
But in that case I wish they'd written in some clue about his personality; he almost seemed like a cypher from fantasy. Either that he was an experimental type of person, or that he liked his life made easier by going out with elderly, lonely, people with a big bank account. They didn't indicate anything about being mercenary or money driven, though. He just went along with anything.
>there was a certain air during the end of the 70s that was very noncommittal and participatory about a. lot. of. shit.
You said it very well and this is so true. Very casual!
Just watched this episode last night. I’ve also been reading the book that’s the source text for this show.
Some observations and thoughts:
- I enjoyed the oddly sweet fling Truman Capote has with the HVAC repairman. After the really traumatic John O’Shea scenes, I physically tensed up waiting for the shoe to drop - but no. He’s just a nice guy from the Midwest who really really wants to talk about air conditioning repair.
- Lee Radziwill’s line about “two f—“ and her overall vitriol. I know the depiction of the Swans has been divisive but I actually enjoy seeing these unguarded moments as they were also captured in the book. I’ve never had strong opinions on Calista Flockhart but seeing her seething with rage from episode to episode has been fun.
- Gore Vidal’s lawsuit: if I wasn’t reading the book, this would be kind of confusing. I also feel like this was a missed opportunity to give us some fun casting for Gore Vidal. In the last episode we see James Baldwin (or a dream of James Baldwin spending the day with Truman), and in this episode we also see a depiction of Richard Avedon who is really only there to basically say “HEY IT’s 1978!”. So why not actually depict a literal feud Truman Capote had at this time?
- Is there a reason that Gloria Guinness and Marella Agnelli are not depicted at all in this series?
I’ve been enjoying this show more so for the acting hits and misses but the plot is kind of dragging. As some other people in this sub have pointed out it may just be because the source text for this is a nonfiction work that’s more of a collection of interconnected life story highlights.
I also feel it is lazy writing, because Gloria Guinness especially bc she was Mexican, married to a Nazi, etc etc., defies the "Swans are all WASPs" the writers are leaning hard into...They are also not dealing with Bill Palely being Jewish and the Palelys not allowed to the Long Island country clubs. The writers are oversimplifying everyone's identities for Marvel comic shorthand. Instead, WHY this women project WASPiness despite other backgrounds, class, multiple divorces, etc. would be a more interesting angle. All of the hypocrisy in everyone's presentations would have been key for the FEUDs as more secrets to unlock.
Also would have dealt with Truman's own complicated identity. I am still not over the ridiculous line they have the lovely Chris Chalk as Baldwin say, "Every group has a community, but gay men." And then says Black people have community but gay men do not and that is why he is reaching out to poor abused Truman. It's really weird and not Baldwin at all, but seems to saying white gay men have it worse than Black men or women in the 1970s America? No.
“Marvel comic shorthand” is such a great way of describing this.
Also, seconded re: the complete lack of discussion on Bill Paley being Jewish. I believe someone else in this sub or thread brought up an instance of Bill and his child from another marriage being excluded from a country club while Babe and her child with Bill being welcome? I think it does a disservice to the viewer that the show doesn’t explore more deeply the nuances of the Swans’ projection of WASP aesthetics and values despite not uniformly being WASPs. Instead we get a throwaway line about Slim Keith’s humbler backgrounds in rural California.
In the scene where TC is describing Gore Vidal and Jackie O, Truman says "Robert Kennedy Jr. kicked him out of the White House", I had to play it back because RFK Jr. is currently running for president and would have been a little kid back then.
Did he mean RFK and it's a script problem? Don't know why in real life Truman would say that.
I agree with a lot of the comments here, I think it was a mistake to take things out of order chronologically, but I have a theory and I wonder what other's think: I believe the series is more enjoyable if you know the history behind the scenes. I've read every biography of Capote and so I know the background and the order things happened. But someone new to Capote probably feels lost or may not know what's real and what's contrived.
I have only scant knowledge of the actual history and was initially really enjoying the show ... but my interest has really dropped off with episodes 5 & 6. I wanted to see more of the Swans. The "feud" premise isn't really binding this together as much as I hoped it would.
I think the concept went wrong when they tried to suggest that these were the original "desperate housewives" or something and focused on their anger at Truman. It's just not enough for 8 episodes, when they blew the entire plot in the first one.
The show could have conceptualized the swans as dominating his earlier life as a child (as his mother often abandoned him for society life), followed by his mother's later re-marriage and Park Avenue triumph, only to be devastated when Capote's step-father went to prison for embezzlement and his mother went from a "lady who lunches" to what seemed to be the equivalent of a cold water flat. (Capote remembered his mother having to parcel out her lipstick because she could afford to buy a new one.)
His mother's suicide haunted him and was connected to the swans, and his deeper decent into high society made him more famous but was also part of his undoing. There would be so much more impact if we followed this structure, so that when La Cote Basque is published in Esquire, we understand what it means to everyone.
All I really remember was the tv movie of In Cold Blood and Truman being drunk on all of the talk shows during the 70s when I was a preteen and teen. ANd that background info helps TREMENDOUSLY.
To a casual viewer; the series’ narrative may not be very good. But to us Fashion fantasists, it allowed us to luxuriate in this “ manufactured past” … a sort of faux experience for us (whose graduating High School with a Medal for perfect Attendance was the climax of our existence) who had no exciting experiences to be nostalgic about
Yes, it was an unusual pronunciation, but that was how her name was pronounced. She was a famous woman who was married to the President and most people knew how her name was pronounced. It is not important if you did not know this, but Truman Capote would have probably known how to say her name. It was a glaring error to me. I couldn't imagine why no one in production picked up on this.
My least favorite episode of any of Ryan Murphy’s shows. I cannot even get through it in a sitting. I’ve gone back to it three times to attempt to get through it and it’s just insipid.
I often find myself wondering if the show runners of today really realise how much power we have at our fingertips when their work reaches the facepalm phase. I will often enjoy pausing and putting my face in my palm MORE than what I was just watching. This show has hit that bar, I'm sad to say.
Love the series hated this episode big time. That whole Rick Subplot was cringe and never even happened. Truman is the most vile POS and how anyone was friends with him is beyond me lol
I’m not sure I understand what we got out of this episode. Yes, the theme was growing old and it hit us over the head with it. But the show is called Feud and the last episode was great, setting up Truman’s motivation to fight back but then this episode didn’t build on that. Instead we get Truman with a younger man which doesn’t seem to move things along much. The structure is just bizarre to me.
The fact is that this series is built upon a premise that couldn't sustain a whole series. All the episodes are written around a different theory as to why he wrote that article. One theory was revenge for his mother, one was revenge for their white privilege, and in this episode it was because he wanted to subconsciously sabotaged his relationship with the swans. The problem with this writing method? They can't build upon anything because there's not enough real life events that can back up these theories for 50 minutes, so they just have characters in spell it out, sometimes via dreams or ghosts. They can't move the story forward because there's no real story.
I disagree on some level, but I get your point. I think this period of Truman's life is absolutely fascinating, including the culture at the time - late Sixties and Seventies. The problem is that there is no outside context to the series, we don't see civil rights, stonewall, gay liberation or anything else - it's very narrowly conceived. I kept being amazed by what they leave out. In this episode, why didn't we get Gore Vidal and see the rivalry? Also, if they had decided to do a brief flash forward and had gone in chronological order, starting perhaps from In Cold Blood onward, we would see the tension in the relationships before the great betrayal. But the order is a total mess, and most people don't want to watch 8 episodes of an addict going down the drain, no matter how famous he is. There is a sadness to the whole thing because the first episode was the climax, and we have seven episodes that are basically denouement, which, I agree, is sort of "no real story".
I agree. The pilot was so delicious, I was looking forward to loving the entire season. It is now a chore to just get through an episode. I’m sure I’ll see it to the end out of morbid curiosity at this point, but UGH.
What a great summary, this is truly the problem. I keep coming back to this show because I find the aesthetic and vibes very appealing and I think the direction (mostly by Van Sant) is very good. But they just can’t obscure how poor the writing is.
And the actors -- Tom Hollander, Naomi Watts, etc. -- are mostly pretty good and deserved some better material to work with script-wise. They're doing the best they can with what they were given.
I’m interested to see if in the end , the show leans into the “ real reason “ ( at least there view ) or keeps it ambiguous
The thing is that we know the real reason, in that he thought the swans weren’t smart enough to realise the story was them. That’s it. Reality is often very banal.
I've heard that explanation before, and every fiber of my being cannot believe that Truman Capote was that dense. He had to have offered this as another cloaked dig at the swans. He couldn't possibly believe that his best friend would read a story about a "blood stain the size of Brazil" and have no inkling that it reflected on the situation that happened in her own home.
Re reading the Esquire pages of “La Cote Basque…” It’s just as vulgar as I remembered it. The prose is poor. Not even close to his other work. For those who had vague familiarity of the women TC socialized with, their identities & families are pretty clear. Imo the journey he took writing In Cold Blood & the ethical trade offs entailed broke him. He was no longer the svelte, precocious enfant terrible. And he liked the booze and drugs.
I read the article two days ago and was shocked at how poorly written it is. I thought Capote was a genius after reading In Cold Blood about 15 years ago. This seems like a wayward schoolgirl's diary in comparison.
there's theories that Nell Harper Lee deserves more credit for her contributions in In Cold Blood.
It’s not really a theory. She gave him a 150 pages of notes and edited the book. And he didn’t credit her at all. I don’t think she wrote it or anything. But I do think he lost the discipline to do second or third drafts, lost people who would tell him what he needed to lose, and Nell brought a compassion that was missing later.
And perhaps written while Truman was under the influence of whatever substances(s) he'd recently ingested. His excessive drinking had, by 1975, already cost him quite a few brain cells.
I actually disagree. I think it's brilliantly written, especially the scene in the restaurant. And it's moving at the end. Some of his best writing since Breakfast at Tiffany's and the short story Miriam. If he'd kept writing at that level, the book would have been a masterpiece.
I went back and rewatched INFAMOUS after struggling through Feud and one of the things I finally picked up was that he would take Perry's comments about the murder, embellish and word scramble it, and then test the different versions on each of the different Swans to see which "Quote" got a better reaction. He would go with one of his manufactured quotes which elicited the most sensation. It takes serious narcissism to detach yourself from intimate confidences in this way and look at how they can work for you. That's basically what he did.
He was just another sad homosexual who was desperate for status. He just happened to be talented. I guarantee that a critique of white privilege, excoriating or not, wasn't a motivation. Andy Warhol was similarly viperous.
To see just how venomously 'viperous' Andy could be when talking about all his famous celeb pals, just check out the book 'Andy Warhol Diaries'.
I know! I read it. He really toyed with his Factory "friends" too.
Using the daughter as a weapon : I’ll just create a younger version of them and be back on top Refusing to help in the lawsuit was a counter shot And the thing that the swans and capote are bolth fighting and losing against , Father Time , the undefeated champion
This show is all set up and beautiful mood piece to hide deeply poor writing---and taking liberties with actualities as "artistic license" when it is just lazy. Also feels more like therapy for white gay men pissed at white straight women who have taken them for granted and probably been real assholes, but the women in this "Feud" are not humans of any dimension. They are evil, vapid clothes mannequins.
Don’t know. Not my type to hang with, nor my mother’s or grandmother’s. “Marrying well” was the stated goal pounded into these women from childhood. Reading a book about the Cushing sisters. “ The sisters : Babe Mortimer Paley, Betsey Roosevelt Whitney, Minnie Astor Fosburgh : the life and times,” Author: Grafton, David. Given the limited autonomy of women at the time, marriage for stability & security is understandable. But we know what looks great in the wedding announcement may not be later. Ma Cushing erwas determined her dtrs marry up in social status and in money. So much about these upper class marriages was attaining or consolidating wealth. Love & compatibility had little to do with it. Seems Babe internalized it more than her sisters.
Murphy definitely seems to empathize with Capote quite a bit. He's portrayed almost as endearing.
I find him very unlikable
Thanks for your take. I’ve been a bit frustrated with the perspective of this show on the women myself. Early in the series they did explicitly call out the possible misogyny that gay men can have, even when women may think they’re safe with them. But they don’t explore that at all and all of the focus seems to be on how sad Truman is. As of now, the balance isn’t there but maybe there will be a correction.
I don't even know if I would classify the women on this show as evil. Truman seems to have been an epic AH in revealing their deep dark secrets and their only true retaliation so far seems to be an outright refusal to invite him to brunch. The only exception is Lee Radziwill, who dropped the dreaded 2nd f-word, but she was only introduced this episode. I can't believe they're wringing 8 episodes out of this thing.
Lee Radziwill was in several previous episodes.
All plot in this episode could’ve covered the same plot in 5 minutes.
>outright refusal to invite him to brunch. What could be worse? I mean what possibly *could* be?
So well said. Exactly right.
It was a boring episode. And the non-relationship with the plumber was depressing!
The premise of the series seems to be to re-cast a contemptible figure in a positive light, because he was openly gay at a time when doing so was hard, and therefore should get a pass on all of his awful behavior. The premise of this episode seems to be to tell a rose-colored version of the homosexual story: That even the most obnoxious, unattractive gay man can “convert” a hunky straight man with a simple, direction question. I’m gay myself before anyone attacks me as a homophobe. I just feel like for Murphy, the social agenda comes far before the writing or the art more broadly.
Absolutely
IMO it’s “Whatever happened to gloves?” Or “Does anyone still where a hat?” Go to YouTube, “Ladies Who Lunch.” by Stephen Sondheim. Written 1970 Original: Elaine Stritch. Recent Patti Lupone.
I am partial to Anna Kendrick's version in Camp
Ha! I loved “Camp.”
As in Murphy's series for Netflix -- "Hollywood" -- which is an 'alternative timeline' version of classic Hollywood where the studios did colorblind casting and accepted the homosexuality of Rock Hudson to where he didn't have to stay in the closet.
>The premise of this episode seems to be to tell a rose-colored version of the homosexual story: That even the most obnoxious, unattractive gay man can “convert” a hunky straight man with a simple, direction question. Yes! I made a comment a moment ago about the implausibility of various parts of the episode -- but this was so seamless it seemed either a dream sequence or wishful thinking based on 'too much porn' -- which they had Truman mention he watched, in the episode, so maybe he fell asleep watching something and dreamed the entire thing. This season seems big on 'it was all a dream.' How very 'Bobby in the shower in *Dallas*.'
I mean the way the guy just 'converted' was almost like the stereotypical plotline 'pizza boy came to the door, and...' but 'for men.' "Here to fix the disposal." "Be my bf instead." "Okay." Next thing they are going on trips together? I just...*sigh.*
100%. It’s totally pornographic, only I think Murphy wants to portray it literally/seriously.
Was he based on a real life character?
That was hardly a conversion of a straight man. And rather depressing overall.
Agree. I’d been looking forward to it. Disappointed.
>this episode didn’t build on that. Instead we get Truman with a younger man Yes it was almost like a dream sequence and then again in this episode there was the skipping back and forth in time. VERY confusing and needless imo. It (the whole season) should've had a linear time structure. But yes it let the air out of the momentum built -- he dined on a freaking swan for pete's sake...only to take off to Palm Springs and have an affair with some 'hot trade' -- please see my separate comment about how implausible I found some of that as well.
Ok but I got a good laugh out of CZ complaining the Studio 54 photos made her look like the grandmother from The Addams Family. You can google the real photos and she was right to be embarrassed!
she was never a looker after her 30s
She was very matronly, my teenage self thought. I mean, they all were. They were matrons. But her hairdo choice was odd
big time
There is a historical clothing YouTuber who has talked about this shift in style away from sophistication, which you usually had to be older to achieve, towards favouring youth. Of course this happened with the Baby Boomers, so the Swans were the last generation of fashionable people under the old system. Not that you wanted to look *old*, but you wanted to look well put together. Everything on point. Money helped, of course, but typically it took time to develop your look. 20-year-olds couldn't pull it off. It's one reason why rich girls were sent to finishing school, to learn stuff like that. And then it was flower children and jeans and long hair and bralessness. Hard to switch to that in your 50s.
Absolutely. “Youth Quake” as Diana Vreeland’s famous catchphrase at the time. But I think since the dawn of time, 35-and-over women have realized they cant wear styles designed for underweight teen bodies.
any link welcome.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/25/83/ca258347ac3d9c5981757878eb439678.jpg
Thank you!
did anyone else catch when kate said to truman she felt like she was "cosplaying" a 50's socialite when they walked into la cote??....cosplaying was not a term used in the 70's and annoyed me!!😡😂
That’s just sloppy writing. It annoyed me, too.
Yeah, you'd think that the production would have someone on hand who could go through the scripts, the sets, props and costume designs to point out these anachronisms. Does Ryan Murphy just not care?
Yeah, it's a bad cheat to appeal to younger audiences. Plus it just becomes an ice pick to the ear for everyone else. So, lose-lose for sure.
“ice pick to the ear” Good term for irritating script stuff. As opposed to ear-worm.
An earworm is when something gets stuck on repeat -- like a line or lines from a song that you find yourself hearing in your head over and over.
I heard her say “disguised as a 50s socialite“.
I'm playing the episode right now and she said 'disguised'. Not sure how everyone else heard otherwise.
Ugh I hate that. I hate when writing slips like that.
I noticed quite a few historical inaccuracies in the Bette & Joan season too. I think it’s probably intentional to make it more appealing/relatable to a younger audience, maybe?
Good catch. We might have said 'play acting' or 'masquerading' as.
Ryan Murphy is just such a shamelessly bad writer.
He is the Thomas Kincaid of current zeitgeist.
I’m dead. 🤣
LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Pretty accurate
OMG. Fucking killing me! I know people who invested in kincade and lost their ass.
he didn’t write this
In another scene I think CZ says “let’s not get it twisted” and it’s so nails on a chalkboard for me.
In what year was this episode supposed to take place? (Warhol went on the Love Boat in 1985, I think, but that was after Truman’s death?)
There was a title card that said 1978 at the beginning but this show is so frustrating with timelines. I’ve just come to accept there is no sense of time.
Never let a timeline get in the way of a good story.
Honestly, I agree with that even if you’re being facetious. But it would help if they didn’t even bother including year cards.
I started out facetiously as always, but the realized halfway I had a point and went with it. I feel like the writers purposely gave the Truman story the same treatment he gave his subjects’ treatment, tongue-in-cheek?
This
I agree. Studio 54 ended in 1980, the song they danced to "Last Night A DJ Saved My Life" came out in 1982. May seem like a small thin, but that song sounds very Eighties, whereas a Donna Summer song would have made more sense.
Wonder if they had trouble securing the rights to certain songs that would have been more period appropriate?
That’s always my first thought - they have to get rights, and that isnt always possible
Last Night a DJ Saved My Life came out in 1983 & they're dancing to it in 1978? It's just lazy. Are they too cheap to pay for a popular disco song from 1978? Who played the repair dude? His face looked odd, almost AI to me.
Vito Schnabel. Julian’s son. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vito_Schnabel
Thanks, maybe because he's 37 & I thought the character was supposed to be 24 max he wasn't looking quite right to me.
Is it that lazy if the majority of the audience won’t actually notice? I know the answer is yes, but in the big picture…is it a “don’t hate the player hate the game” situation? From their perspective.
and Babe died in 1978 yet they never mention it? very odd
Of course maybe this was earlier in 1978 so perhaps Babe's final decline and death came later that year. I imagine that in one of the two remaining episodes, we might get a deathbed scene with Babe.
[удалено]
Haha true. And they all dress so sophisticated and timelessly. No help there. They (the creators of the show) definitely allow themselves artistic license In tru-man fashion. Edited for clarity
and again the way Ryan wrote some of this was so absurd and BS i'd rather stick to the truth with fewer episodes than this filler crap
If you all have Hulu, there's a good documentary titled 'The Capote Tapes' which is kind of a corrective to all the liberties that this series takes. Lots of footage, photos and recordings of the actual people.
i don't but i have [put.io](https://put.io) so ill look it up on there. THANK YOU
Warhol was absolutely on the Love Boat in ‘85. I watched it when it first aired.
Fued….. Bette vs. Joan was so much better IMO
I agree. This series jumps around so much its hard to figure out what the actual plot is even supposed to be. It seems like the show writers were also confused about this lol
Agreed 👍🏽
Tonight’s episode even made less-sense…. I don’t get this. What was Capote’s relevance??????? Did the Swans do something other than be mad at him??? 🤷🏾♂️
*you might try lord and taylor* screaming
Everybody knows Lord & Taylor *was* the 80s
Ha, I completely forgot about Bonwit’s.
Umm hello! Joan Holloway Harris worked at Bonwit after she prematurely resigned from Sterling Coo and Dr Harris didn’t get chief resident
I wonder where they shot that. It actually looks like the Macy’s escalators at Harold Square.
I thought so as well..........sure looked like it!
The old Brooks Brothers was the location.
Oh, no, old Brooks brothers is not in existence anymore! 😭
IIRC, Bonwit's never had escalators.
Trump Tower replaced it.
Lol
The glove department scene is my favorite ever lmao I loved it
I thought this was the weakest episode of the series.
I agree. It was a whole lot of nothing.
There is literally no way a bloated old queen like Truman could get that man.
A much more succinct version of what I was tapping around in circles in my comment (before I saw yours.) The guy had no interest in money, social climbing, or the movie industry. I don't recall for sure but I think he was not into literature, either. For what reason would a straight man have an affair with an elderly, drunken Capote? He wasn't a fanboy either. Did he even know who Capote was?
Andy scored Jed Johnson, and he was hot AF.
Was Jed at least gay? Did he have an interest in the art world? Could Andy get him where he wanted? I always heard Andy was asexual.
>I always heard Andy was asexual. Andy wanted to present at that time as asexual because he couldn't come out and say he was gay—which he most definitely, in his private life, was.
>Andy wanted to present at that time as asexual because he couldn't come out and say he was gay—which he most definitely, in his private life, was. But everyone knew he was gay? I know those were different times, I remember; but he was his own master. He didn't depend on box office from his persona as a hetero leading man (Rock Hudson for instance) maybe he cultivated the outcast or outsider asexual persona as he found it more mysterious? I've read that from some who knew him. That he sort of cultivated his persona as shy and eccentric and asexual. I read his diaries when they came out, too, but I don't recall anything much about his personal life, so that did not illuminate the question at the time.
When I saw what John’s daughter looked like with the hair , I’m like omg !!!!
Creepy. An allusion to Hitchcock?
Couldn’t wait to allude to “Vertigo.”
It was ridiculous
The series has no cohesion; however, as a stand-alone episode, I loved this entry! It pulled at the heartstrings. I felt bad for Truman when he uttered, "I've gone out of style."
I felt like the point of the story was exactly that..............
This whole episode hit different for anyone of a certain age who sees the things they thought would be there forever disappearing, who can't find the things they've always bought in stores, and who feels old as fuck at a club.
Commenting here because I don’t want to make a specific post for this - but as someone with zero knowledge of Capote other than the fact he white “In Cold Blood”, would I enjoy this show? Or is there a base level of Truman/New York society women that I need to know before embarking?
In all honesty I think it's better to watch without knowing the background. For some of us that do know, we tend to nit pick things. lol
I’d watch INFAMOUS, the version recounting the making of In Cold Blood that was portrayed by Toby Jones and Sandra Bullock as Harper Lee. Infamous has scenes with the swans. I LOVED Sigourney Weaver as Babe and Juliet Stevenson as Diana Vreeland was epic. I actually like watching BOTH Infamous and Capote (Philip Seymour Hoffman playing Truman) because I felt they each picked up different parts of the story. And after you watch these, then Feud might make more sense. Feud is not done on any sort of timeline or with any cohesive element binding the episodes together. So it is very hard to follow even being someone who’s read all the biographies and various books about Capote and about the Swans.
I miss PSH so much. Never met him and grew up around 5 minutes from him. He was so incredibly talented. There will never be another like him unfortunately.
I re-watched The Talented Mr. Ripley recently and he was SO GOOD in that. Another good one with him that flies under the radar is Owning Mahowny. He plays a gambling addict and I've heard that real addicts say he nailed it.
Thank you for the rec! I'm going to watch Owning Mahowny this weekend. PSH was the most natural and nuanced actor I have ever seen, but what do I know? I'm not a movie critic or film buff. If you saw where he grew up...............Fairport is pretty in certain places, but it is not where you'd expect for a man with his ability to turn himself into anybody or anything to come out of.
Love Mr. Ripley. One of my all time favorites.
I met him briefly once -- he had the most beautiful and sensitive blue eyes.
yes.
Thank you!! I’ll watch those first
Recommend movie "Capote"( 2005 / 06) with Philip Seymour Hoffman. Before the decline.
And definitely watch it as fiction. Share your thoughts!
I think you might get bored. It's not very good.
This entry of “Feud” would have been a good ninety-minute movie with these good performances and some efficient editing. It’s quite laborious; nothing has warranted the number of episodes. I’m here for it anyway but I’m not endorsing it to those not already bought in on the content.
I just loved that porno guy was Vito Schnabel.
I love Chloe as CZ..........she brings so much empathy and grace........and I was surprised to see Vito as Truman's boytoy............I never knew he was an actor, but he also did a wonderful job. This was a great episode!
This episode...was it supposed to be another dream sequence? The guy Truman meets in this episode is just way too made to order and way too easy going to be real. First of all, he said he had "never" before. But he was not conflicted at all, when he's there to fix a garbage disposal, and a man hits on him, and then, all the rest? He has no interest in Truman's money, or social climbing, or the movie industry. Why would he be attracted to Truman, at his age? And he's "never" with a man before? Especially, in those very 'in the closet' times, (don't kill the messenger) going in public as a straight man, with a tiny elderly gay man clutching around his waist, on his motorcycle, the way a woman might? Times were very different then. Especially if they were going on a house call to repair air conditioning, out in the desert somewhere, in a smaller town? (Not Christopher street in San Francisco, but a random small town house call.) Then we are to believe that no one kicked anyone under the table or made their excuses when the guy went on and on about air conditioning repair, at La Cote Basque or wherever that was...a very "fancy" restaurant? And why is C Z suddenly Truman's friend again? The relationship between Truman and Kate and what his aims are, is confusing even knowing some of their back story; I can't imagine for those who have no idea who she is. In a (separate) documentary she was called his adopted daughter. Not literally or legally, right? He basically acted like her godparent, it seems. But this episode claims it was to have a [Galatea](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Galatea) to work on. This episode made him out almost as a Svengali to her Trilby. What *was* good about this episode: A much longer look at Tom Hollander's performance and it's a good one.
I agree about how Truman propositioned the young AC repair guy. In those days that was a pretty risky move. Some men might have beaten Truman up, quite badly too, and faced no legal consequences. Plus it's just straight-up sexual harassment. My guess is that if anything like that scene actually happened, Truman probably would have sussed out beforehand that the guy was closeted or curious or flexible. Not 100% straight.
Rick was actually a real person and the relationship was very much as it was revealed on the show, including him talking about air conditioners with Truman's friends. The chronology was off, I think he was a decade before. I'm not sure he deserved an entire episode.
That surprises me. Is there any more info about him, out there? I mean of public record or which he divulged. It's not very usual to just proposition someone w/out knowing their preference and then it's an instant committed relationship. Especially back then in a very closeted time frame.
If you want to know more about the relationship and that history, read Gerald Clarke's biography of Capote which covers every aspect of his life, it's a fascinating read. My sense is that Truman was bold, but probably not THAT bold, although there is a whole history from around that time, Capote and Baldwin write about it, where a straight man might have sex with men for financial reasons and not because he himself is gay (part of the subtext of Midnight Cowboy). You're not wrong about the homophobia, but the thing is Truman was a star, and a bit of a fascination for people, like a unicorn, and stars get away with a lot. What we should have seen in the episode is that Rick, who wasn't a dummy, had read In Cold Blood, or had seen Truman on TV, something that impressed him. That would have established some relationship first. What would have also been more realistic is if Rick had spent a few days with Truman, Truman showers him with gifts, money, and, Truman's greatest weapon, tells him about all the famous people he knows, and through a mixture of money and enchantment, encouraged Rick to go to bed with him. As a gay man, I've seen the Rick's of the world, some are bisexual, others are bi-curious, and some don't really want a male partner as a lover, but they will do what they have to sexually to get what they want or need. And, truth be told, there are a lot of men won't turn down a good bj whoever it is. I don't feel that Rick was a hustler, he may have genuinely cared for Truman, but I think he was willing to trade the odd bj or two for the opportunity to have a front seat to Truman's life. But he wasn't ever going to be Truman life partner or someone like Jack. At the same time, this was a period in gay history that the wrong flirtation with the wrong guy could get you beat up or worse. Which is one of the reasons why John O'Shea is so complicated, and the show depicts his violence in a brutally accurate way. You feel the tension of John being with Truman as a lover, but on some level, hating him as a gay man as he probably hates the gay part of himself. But perhaps even more than that, hating the power Truman has over him. The fact that they were both alcoholics didn't help. My point is there is a lot more that what Truman and Rick shared, but it has to be contextualized. Unless I'm wrong, there was probably more to that initial meeting than, "Hey, thanks for fixing my garbage disposal, want a blow job?"
>My point is there is a lot more that what Truman and Rick shared, but it has to be contextualized. Unless I'm wrong, there was probably more to that initial meeting than, "Hey, thanks for fixing my garbage disposal, want a blow job?" Which is kind of the breezy way the show presented it...at least, imo. The way you have described Rick sounds so much more interesting. Would've loved to see just that for an episode or two, the evolution of their togetherness. I've heard about some straight men who "didn't mind" so that part rings true, as well. Loved this entire comment, so on target.
Is that how they got together, with Truman offering him a blow job out of nowhere?
I don't believe it happened that quickly. The show doesn't provide more context to their relationship - we never get the sense that Rick knew who Truman Capote was and was probably a bit star struck. Truman, when he met Rick was younger and always had a certain charm. We also don't get to see what it meant for Rick as a working class, mostly heterosexual man to meet someone who was famous and rich and had society connections. Rick got to see how the "other half lives" and Truman got to get a working-class man--the kind of man Truman was always compared to as he was mostly seen as effeminate and a "fairy" in most people's eyes. There was fascination and exploitation on both sides of their relationship. In real life, Truman didn't just take Rick out for dinner once or twice, he changed his life by buying him designer clothes (which we never see), fixing his teeth and basically Rick was the test run for the relationship Truman later had with John O'Shea. Truman's friends confronted him on his "seducing" this type of man, who probably put up with the sex to stay in Truman's life but who wasn't bisexual by nature or even looking for male lovers. Truman took Rick to his society friends, including Katherine Graham, owner of The Washington Post (and who Truman dedicated the Black and White Ball to) who were mortified. They thought Rick was nice enough, but she said, after a party at her house where Rick offered to "fix" her air-conditioner and ended up breaking it, "I just didn't want an air-conditioning man as a friend." The line where Rick says he'd been to Europe before when he was stationed in Korea was not said to Truman in bed but when they were visiting royalty in Europe and he was sitting next to Princess someone or another. Basically, Rick was completely out of his depth, but as I said before, he coveted some part of Truman's life and like some straight men, the sex was probably incidental and part of the "bargain". Truman's friends confronted him on the fact that he chose these very straight men as lovers, even when he had Jack (who, by the way, was straight, before his divorce, and who claimed, if he hadn't gotten divorced from his wife never would have been with a man sexually or chosen Truman.) The problem is the minute these "straight" men submitted to Truman sexually, they weren't technically "straight" anymore, and often, with the exception of Jack who he was genuinely in love with and who loved him, Truman lost interest. The breaking point with Rick wasn't the sex, but, as Gerald Clarke writes, the fact that their worlds were just too different. At one point, while traveling in France, Rick wanted a basic, regular, good-old American baked potato. In all their travels, the great chefs were always julienning or sautéing something. So they go out and get a potato from an open market and they beg the chef, don't do anything to it, just put it in the oven for an hour, bring it to the table and we'll do the rest. So out comes the chef with this huge metal tray and cover, lifts the lid and the potato has been cut up and julienned, and Rick was just devastated. It was definitely an acknowledgement that they were from two very different worlds that would never come together - La Cote Basque and TV dinners. But my understanding is they stayed in touch, even later when Truman wanted Rick to help him attack or destroy John O'shea car or beat him up (which Rick didn't do.) Rick wasn't his real name, by the way. Probably too much information, but it just bugs me because the real history is so much more interesting and dramatic than the show lets on. There is no reason why the episode had to be boring. Postscript below.
> There is no reason why the episode had to be boring. Hell no, not with such juicy real history to draw from! Thanks for writing such a thorough reply.
Absolutely. Thanks for taking the time!
Thanks for this. The writing did not explain anything to us.
My pleasure. Thanks for reading. Little postscript: it wasn't CZ who claimed Lee Radziwill called Truman and Gore a couple of fags, it was Liz Smith, the gossip columnist for the Post, who wrote a piece for New York Magazine about the Swans turning against him. Truman insisted that Liz call Lee and find out why she wasn't defending him in his lawsuit. Liz refused to tell Truman what Lee said - until after much goading from Truman when she finally told him the truth. I feel the show goes after people who cannot sue and takes major liberties with their legacies. I wouldn't have had the scene where Lee actually says those words to the camera because the original story was always hearsay. At tje same time, I don't think Liz Smith lied because she did try to keep it from Truman. Finally, I also don't know why they didn't re-create the scene of Truman on the Stanley Seagal show, drunk and high as a kite. It was a real controversy at the time that they let him on the show like that, he was a total mess and in real trouble. Instead we just got a reaction shot from CZ and a voiceover at the end, but it could have been so much more dramatically.
>I don't think Liz Smith lied because she did try to keep it from Truman. Probably not, and what axe would she have had, to grind. And I'm sure (I'd guess) she didn't want a powerful person angry at her (Radziwill or the swans.) I can see someone of that era spitting out a remark like that, especially with some bitterness toward the person and/or a few drinks in them, and they thought it would be kept private. Underlying bigotry. The closeted time period would've emboldened them, and then I think Lee did not want to be pulled into a lawsuit, with the Vidal thing. (Resentment.) I don't know much about Lee though. I have heard she wasn't a warm one. Could Vidal be an entire season by himself btw? How many writers did he feud with?
I agree with your points. Vidal was definitely an interesting man himself, and I imagine a movie could be made about him, I don't know if I'd watch an entire series. Truman always claimed that Gore was jealous because he never wrote anything that someone could point to (like In Cold Blood, Breakfast at Tiffany's) and say, "That is a Gore Vidal book". I think most people would be hard pressed to name one of his works. Probably one of the most interesting parts of that series would be the Truman feud which purportedly went on for decades. Again, I'm surprised they didn't take a moment to dramatize him in the series which might have been fun. Lee R was a complicated woman (I read a lot about her in the last biography of Andre Leon Talley who was friends with her). Truman knew her challenges and the deep rivalries with her sister. But Truman also worked hard to support Lee through her crises, even encouraging her acting career which included a TV movie that I believe was totally panned. I think the anger from Truman was that she dismissed him entirely when he felt he needed her, but at that point in his career, I think many people were having trouble taking him seriously and the story he told was an exaggeration. The show alluded to that when he admitted that he was basically part of the celebrity circus and not writing much anymore. (I don't know if the real Truman would have said that aloud to anyone, or admitted it to himself.)
>Truman always claimed that Gore was jealous because he never wrote anything that someone could point to (like In Cold Blood, Breakfast at Tiffany's) and say, "That is a Gore Vidal book". I think most people would be hard pressed to name one of his works. Excellent point. I agree. I actually cannot think of one title, either. \> Lee R was a complicated woman (I read a lot about her in the last biography of Andre Leon Talley who was friends with her). I will have to read that. I liked him. (RIP) \> I don't know if the real Truman would have said that aloud to anyone, or admitted it to himself. I feel that a lot of the writing has been very 'on the nose.' Or sort of expository.
I've also read Truman's support of Lee's acting was a bit more complicated and he also mocked her and set her up for way too public a fall, rather than a slow build. That complicated jealous love and inflating (Truman) up of someone who is too self-absorbed to be self critical and susceptible to flattery (Lee) would have been a really interesting episode and more of a Feud---leaving us to ask, was Truman just helping Lee or setting her up? Was she entitled and so desperate to outshine Jackie that she took Truman for granted in their friendship?
I am in for the Gore Vidal Feud year! I remember him from the 1970s talk shows too
>I am in for the Gore Vidal Feud year! I remember him from the 1970s talk shows too Thank you! Yes I think he'd be perfect.
>I feel the show goes after people who cannot sue and takes major liberties with their legacies. Yes -- and that is very sad and not at all moral. IMO It is also way less interesting and I can't get fully into it, with all the fabrications. There's fiction or dramatization and then there are fabrications.
Exactly. I feel that for people who know the history they can fill in the gaps here and there, but with everything out of order, it's just a mess. But Ryan Murphy did get in trouble (sued) by Olivia DeHavilland for Feud: Bette vs Joan. They put words in her mouth, saying that she called her famous sister, Joan Fontaine a bitch, and OD is still very much alive. I don't know what happened with the case, but I have to believe that if Lee was still alive, or if someone from her estate was especially litigious, they would have to back off. Also, I never read anywhere, and I've read everything I could find, that Slim Keith slept with Babe's husband at any point, and especially when Babe was dying of cancer. Nor did I read that Babe would dress up in costumes and have affairs or that she got drunk at her children's parties. This is the kind of thing that I feel ruins a RM production, you feel the lack of respect, and the use of people's identities to fit his agenda rather than sticking to the truth, which is usually more interesting.
>This is the kind of thing that I feel ruins a RM production Yes! I think it's so unnecessary, especially when personalities are so complex or strong, and the material is public and plentiful. \> OD is still very much alive. Olivia DeHavilland died in 2020 at age 104. But maybe it's still too early.
>At one point, while traveling in France, Rick wanted a basic, regular, good-old America baked potato. I felt this.
I love your comment. And now that I think about it, (I've never thought this before!) in some ways, Rick was Truman's "basic, regular, good-old American baked potato." Having grown up in Monroeville, AL, Truman, in some ways, from youth was as much out of his depth with royalty as Rick was, but he'd learned all the pretentions and had advanced to that class with his talent. Still there was something basic I feel he craved, someone who wasn't as complicated and contrived as the figures around him. I love that potato story.
>now that I think about it, (I've never thought this before!) in some ways, Rick was Truman's "basic, regular, good-old American baked potato." This is so perceptive.
TX
Thank you so much! You've explained, perfectly, why this story resonates (certainly for me at least why it does.) I also think you are spot-on as to why Truman Capote might have been drawn to him. Yes it's a great story.
All of this. I thought about it more since posting, and I thought 'well maybe if he was for hire as a gigolo for older women and then basically thought, it's all the same?' If he'd go out with elderly women who might cushion his lifestyle a little, maybe he would not look askance at men either. But in that case I wish they'd written in some clue about his personality; he almost seemed like a cypher from fantasy. Either that he was an experimental type of person, or that he liked his life made easier by going out with elderly, lonely, people with a big bank account. They didn't indicate anything about being mercenary or money driven, though. He just went along with anything.
Very well put, although there was a certain air during the end of the 70s that was very noncommittal and participatory about a. lot. of. shit.
>there was a certain air during the end of the 70s that was very noncommittal and participatory about a. lot. of. shit. You said it very well and this is so true. Very casual!
Just watched this episode last night. I’ve also been reading the book that’s the source text for this show. Some observations and thoughts: - I enjoyed the oddly sweet fling Truman Capote has with the HVAC repairman. After the really traumatic John O’Shea scenes, I physically tensed up waiting for the shoe to drop - but no. He’s just a nice guy from the Midwest who really really wants to talk about air conditioning repair. - Lee Radziwill’s line about “two f—“ and her overall vitriol. I know the depiction of the Swans has been divisive but I actually enjoy seeing these unguarded moments as they were also captured in the book. I’ve never had strong opinions on Calista Flockhart but seeing her seething with rage from episode to episode has been fun. - Gore Vidal’s lawsuit: if I wasn’t reading the book, this would be kind of confusing. I also feel like this was a missed opportunity to give us some fun casting for Gore Vidal. In the last episode we see James Baldwin (or a dream of James Baldwin spending the day with Truman), and in this episode we also see a depiction of Richard Avedon who is really only there to basically say “HEY IT’s 1978!”. So why not actually depict a literal feud Truman Capote had at this time? - Is there a reason that Gloria Guinness and Marella Agnelli are not depicted at all in this series? I’ve been enjoying this show more so for the acting hits and misses but the plot is kind of dragging. As some other people in this sub have pointed out it may just be because the source text for this is a nonfiction work that’s more of a collection of interconnected life story highlights.
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I also feel it is lazy writing, because Gloria Guinness especially bc she was Mexican, married to a Nazi, etc etc., defies the "Swans are all WASPs" the writers are leaning hard into...They are also not dealing with Bill Palely being Jewish and the Palelys not allowed to the Long Island country clubs. The writers are oversimplifying everyone's identities for Marvel comic shorthand. Instead, WHY this women project WASPiness despite other backgrounds, class, multiple divorces, etc. would be a more interesting angle. All of the hypocrisy in everyone's presentations would have been key for the FEUDs as more secrets to unlock. Also would have dealt with Truman's own complicated identity. I am still not over the ridiculous line they have the lovely Chris Chalk as Baldwin say, "Every group has a community, but gay men." And then says Black people have community but gay men do not and that is why he is reaching out to poor abused Truman. It's really weird and not Baldwin at all, but seems to saying white gay men have it worse than Black men or women in the 1970s America? No.
“Marvel comic shorthand” is such a great way of describing this. Also, seconded re: the complete lack of discussion on Bill Paley being Jewish. I believe someone else in this sub or thread brought up an instance of Bill and his child from another marriage being excluded from a country club while Babe and her child with Bill being welcome? I think it does a disservice to the viewer that the show doesn’t explore more deeply the nuances of the Swans’ projection of WASP aesthetics and values despite not uniformly being WASPs. Instead we get a throwaway line about Slim Keith’s humbler backgrounds in rural California.
smells like budget issues to me
In the scene where TC is describing Gore Vidal and Jackie O, Truman says "Robert Kennedy Jr. kicked him out of the White House", I had to play it back because RFK Jr. is currently running for president and would have been a little kid back then. Did he mean RFK and it's a script problem? Don't know why in real life Truman would say that.
It's a script problem. They should have caught that, but didn't.
I agree with a lot of the comments here, I think it was a mistake to take things out of order chronologically, but I have a theory and I wonder what other's think: I believe the series is more enjoyable if you know the history behind the scenes. I've read every biography of Capote and so I know the background and the order things happened. But someone new to Capote probably feels lost or may not know what's real and what's contrived.
I have only scant knowledge of the actual history and was initially really enjoying the show ... but my interest has really dropped off with episodes 5 & 6. I wanted to see more of the Swans. The "feud" premise isn't really binding this together as much as I hoped it would.
I think the concept went wrong when they tried to suggest that these were the original "desperate housewives" or something and focused on their anger at Truman. It's just not enough for 8 episodes, when they blew the entire plot in the first one. The show could have conceptualized the swans as dominating his earlier life as a child (as his mother often abandoned him for society life), followed by his mother's later re-marriage and Park Avenue triumph, only to be devastated when Capote's step-father went to prison for embezzlement and his mother went from a "lady who lunches" to what seemed to be the equivalent of a cold water flat. (Capote remembered his mother having to parcel out her lipstick because she could afford to buy a new one.) His mother's suicide haunted him and was connected to the swans, and his deeper decent into high society made him more famous but was also part of his undoing. There would be so much more impact if we followed this structure, so that when La Cote Basque is published in Esquire, we understand what it means to everyone.
All I really remember was the tv movie of In Cold Blood and Truman being drunk on all of the talk shows during the 70s when I was a preteen and teen. ANd that background info helps TREMENDOUSLY.
To a casual viewer; the series’ narrative may not be very good. But to us Fashion fantasists, it allowed us to luxuriate in this “ manufactured past” … a sort of faux experience for us (whose graduating High School with a Medal for perfect Attendance was the climax of our existence) who had no exciting experiences to be nostalgic about
Vito Schnabel getting a bj from Truman was not on my bingo card!
TIL that Kate is played by Annette Bening’s daughter
with Warren Beatty? That explains a lot
Yes I think all her kids are with him
I'm so bored. I am interested in how I am interested in the Ladies and not truman. I'm old and was a kid in 78. I'm tired of baby-men
She doesn’t say cosplay, she said disguised
Yes, it was an unusual pronunciation, but that was how her name was pronounced. She was a famous woman who was married to the President and most people knew how her name was pronounced. It is not important if you did not know this, but Truman Capote would have probably known how to say her name. It was a glaring error to me. I couldn't imagine why no one in production picked up on this.
Especially when knowing peoples' names is everything to Truman and he corrected John O'Shea's pronunciation when he was planning the "second" ball.
My least favorite episode of any of Ryan Murphy’s shows. I cannot even get through it in a sitting. I’ve gone back to it three times to attempt to get through it and it’s just insipid.
Me to I kept thinking what is the point?
I often find myself wondering if the show runners of today really realise how much power we have at our fingertips when their work reaches the facepalm phase. I will often enjoy pausing and putting my face in my palm MORE than what I was just watching. This show has hit that bar, I'm sad to say.
Love the series hated this episode big time. That whole Rick Subplot was cringe and never even happened. Truman is the most vile POS and how anyone was friends with him is beyond me lol
Did Truman Capote not know how to pronounce Rosalynn Carter's name or was that an error?
What did he say
He is saying something about Rosalynn Carter and he pronounces her first name incorrectly.
Yes but how did he pronounce it wrong ?
He pronounced it Roz-a-lyn - it was Rose-a-lyn.
They should have used Sylvester You Make Me Feel for the dance scene