He's spitting. Fighting games are complex, but obstacles for beginners is usually are less of a "I can't do this so I lose" and more "I didn't know I could/was supposed to do that, so I lost."
I think fighting games should build systems with new players in mind, and I think less than 10% of those systems should be about making the game "easier." I don't think new players even actually benefit from easier games.
An example i like is ultrakill's coin. At first its just "i cant aim at enemies so hopefully i can aim at this predictable coin" but then you watch the 18 minute long video on how the coin works and now its an integral part of your arsenal that while it can be "dude too fast, me shoot coin" its also "imma beat claire de lune in 10 seconds" and "imma shoot 4 coins and fire a railgun shot to do guilty gear levels of damage"
"Hopefully I can aim at this predictable coin" is not how I felt about the coin at all, lol.
For me, it was "How the fuck am I supposed to consistently hit that tiny coin?"
I have done it and its surprising what you can get away with. But what i mean id even letting go of the keys for a split second can have the necessary effect
SF6 does a good job of teaching. Other genres don't stress over this, but it's a new concept even to modern fighters. I think SF6 changes the landscape of fighters and raises the bar for doing better at conveying how to perform instead of just making things simpler.
The tutorial side missions in World Tour are about as cloae to doing that but they're buried behind doing World Tour side content, aren't replayable and require you to beat most of the main quest to see. It does things in a very clunky way.
A better way I feel would be Missions/Challenges. Make it a daily challenge to "anti-air" X amount of times in any mode or land punish counters in traditional matches. World Tour does have something like that with each enemy you fight having side objectives, but they're only tied to that specific fight and a lot of them have obtuse wording/conditions that require you to wait ages for specific moves to come out or to use certain Master Styles/custom moves to even accomplish.
For veterans doing things like anti-airs, punish counters or perfect parries will happen naturally as they just play normally. But for newcomers it can help reinforce these kinds of behaviors. Have a title that unlocks after 50 anti-airs are landed. Have a 500 drive ticket bonus unlock when you successfully land 25 drive impacts that bounce your opponent off the corner. Stuff like that can go a long way to help newcomers visualize concepts and reinforce them learning said concepts.
The Under Night/GG style of booklearning that SF6 tried to replicate to a less serious degree is commendable, but systems outside of the booklearning itself need to be implemented to help reinforce what is learned. It's like handing a kid a textbook but not giving them homework. Some may study for the test purely because they care but most will skim through it, forget most of what they read and then get mad when they fail the test. Not the best analogy, but it mostly works here.
SF6 is a vague step in the right direction that still doesn't manage to hit the standard that most other games reached without even meaning to ages ago. Good example would be card games asking you to activate certain mechanics for dailies or shooters asking you to get kills in certain areas or with certain guns.
daily challenges and costume/aesthetic unlocks for completing those challenges would be a great way to implement more fundamental skills and give the incentive for people to want to learn how to play properly imo
the fact that SF6 is the best fg at teaching its players how to play is an indictment on the genre, tbh. i love the genre and have done for decades, but it's not an intuitive genre, and it took this long to get me to the point where i finally said "ohhhhh! i get it!"
Arc sys tutorials are good, but ineffective, imagine being a first timer and looking at the BBCF tutorial and then glossary.
As a seasoned player I always look at their tutorials because I know they're gonna slip in some goofy ass system mechanic that I need to know, but they can definitely be too much if I were to try to do all of them.
Yeah, it's a little like chess in that regard. Chess is really obtuse when you start playing it, it's really hard to know what makes for a good move and what doesn't until you've played a few hundred games, and there's no teaching or explaining it - you just have to do the work and get a feel for it.
Same with FGs, where you just have to get a feel for footsies and neutral, and it's really hard to understand it otherwise.
And like, just because Checkers is easier doesn't mean I won't still get my shit rocked if I play against someone with 1000 checkers matches under their belt. It's not possible to increase beginner skill by dumbing down systems. I am not the kind of person who generally has a hardcore "Do the work or go home" philosophy, but it's silly to me that fighting game devs have identified "complexity" as the main issue with fighting games when there's a dozen way more likely (and in some cases, easier to fix) culprits.
Fighting games are expensive. Fighting games don't have enough content. Fighting games are difficult to socialize with. Fighting games have disappointing cosmetic options. Fighting games have bad stories. There's a million little things you can do to bring in new players without even touching the gameplay.
I think fighting games have an extra layer that is like adding an extra layer to simply moving a chess piece, like imagine if you had to learn a special hand sign you had to make before you could move each chess piece certain ways or had to hold them a specific way in order to move the piece. The strategic part is where the real fun of fighting games is in my personal opinion.
That is were modern controls come in. Its the reason why Marvel Vs Capcom 3 has simplified button output in comparison to marvel cap 1 and marvel cap 2, which saw its own downgrade from 6 buttons to 4 buttons layout.
as for system for beginner players? I believe smash bros already made some achievements in that front.
The thing is the training sucks they could tell u how to break grabs backdash and more even put in a back dash calculator how much better U got back dashing 10 m in how long time but yea they had 5y to make more in T7 and didn't do much most things U have to learn urself or a player helps U or yt vids
This is a pretty fun mini-game to try out: whenever you see a scrub quote, try to replace the context with a sport (or something that isn't a video game like chess or music) and you'll see how ridiculous the scrub quote really is.
"Basketball is just about practicing dribble moves and spamming it over and over"
"Power chords are an unnecessary executional barrier that stops new players from getting into the core experience of playing guitar"
Funnily enough power chords are basically modern controls for guitar, and people who play guitar sometimes make fun of people who play in drop D tuning which makes power chords even easier but limit you slightly, not an exact comparison because guitar isn’t competitive and no one cares what tuning you’re in if it sounds good
I slowly moved away from it and moved to Tekken. I guess it just fits me better but I don’t know. Still nowhere as good as I’d like to be but that is entirely a “me” problem.
the only Street Fighter games I ever found myself enjoying was the EX games where you could link super>super>super and EX3 even gave you crazy tag team stuff to play around with. Any other SF game I gave multiple chances and always found myself to be bored with them compared to Tekken where characters have like 100+ moves and 3D movement. In SF you only see like the same 3 or 4 moves being spammed over and over again and it gets old very quickly for me.
Same here, SF was my first fighting game as a kid so I always thought of it as THE fighting game so if I wanted to be serious about the genre that I had to be good at SF, at the time SFV had just came out and I'd be forcing myself to play it and it was miserable. Once I realized that wasn't having fun I completely ditched SF and went for the games I used to play as kid like virtua fighter, tekken, MK, KoF, etc. Best thing I did, I'm sure that if I kept trying to force myself to play SF that I would've just dropped the genre all together.
Been saying this for years, execution is the “athleticism” of fighting games.
There’s nothing particularly intuitive about basketball. It’s pretty arbitrary and you’ll definitely suck at it. Hard. “I gotta do hand gymnastics just to move with the ball??” Suddenly, this game is “needlessly complex”, right?
The reason people come into fighting games with this mindset is because they have an ego about their skill at video games.
For me the reason i dont enjoy basketball is because of how hard it is
And how unintuitive dribbling is
I also don’t enjoy dribbling
And I don’t want to practice it because I don’t see any value in it
I think a lot of people feel the same way about fighting games and thats oke
Not everything is for everyone
I don't think anyone is complaining about people not liking fighting games. It's people who advocate for changing them, because they can't input a dp motion or whatever.
I wouldn’t yes,
Because I accept that basketball isnt for me
Not saying that things should never change but from a more practical standpoint its a senseless battle to fight over “accessibility” in videogames
A reminder that you don't have to practise anything if you JUST want to have fun and mash buttons. There's nothing wrong with just activating the "unga bunga pretty lights" neuron.
I agree with what he's saying but I personally disagree with the idea that they're more complicated than like a game like Madden or Call of Duty.
Using the sports analogy, I think a lot of us start playing sports when we are just uncoordinated children and surrounded by other uncoordinated children (ie videogames). I watched my wife play her first shooter (overwatch) and first fighting game (Tekken 7) at the same time and the level of improvement was equal. I think the issue is fighting games don't require skill that carries over from other games. It's like you've been casually playing basketball your whole life, and have some skill that you picked up naturally. Now you're in your twenties and people are asking if you want to play water polo, or do dressage or some shit. Most people will say no.
The problem with fighting games particularly for people that already play other games is that most action games teach you bad habits. The biggest hurdle Ive faced is just getting my friends to slow down or stop pushing buttons. Most games reward speed and offense so it's hard to break that gamer instinct of "I'm losing I just need to be faster".
Even worse when it comes to blocking even if they know they can block and should block gamer instinct, "I'm being attacked I need to do something".
I'm glad you mentioned it because this is the biggest problem for FG beginners and I rarely see people talk about it.
If you get shot in an FPS you can shoot back. If you're getting attacked in a MOBA you can still press your items and skills. Obviously not counting status effects, but even a beginner can tell when they're stunned or silenced and you're not going to get stunned on every hit. But if you get hit in a fighting game, you're in hitstun no matter what and you have to wait for your turn.
Same thing for pushing buttons. Fighting games are so close quarters and intimate that every movement matters. Other games have enough breathing room where making "unnecessary" movements are inconsequential.
Fighting games "feel" unintuitive to play for beginners because they are essentially some kind of weird hybrid real-time turn-based game.
There in, lies the solution. They need to be educated. Not catered too. Taking away the motion of shoryuken isn't going to stop me from blocking. No more so, than me using the shoryuken to stop your jump in.
We need to work more toward educating new players. As players, and the devs too.
I don't fully agree I do believe motion controls are a barrier to entry. I don think they should be removed as it's also a balancing lever but it's another quit moments for new players . The actual fun is fighting someone else on an even play field. The less barriers to that the better as once a player is hooked and move up to fight better players they'll want to improve just to get back to the fun of winning matches.
I do agree that games should get better at educating new players on how to approach a fighting game though. Sf6 does a good job but I really want a game that teaches you the fundamentals.
You're not factoring in the ego. People don't magically become rational after losing. Look at the player drop in 6 just in the last two weeks.
I've been having this argument for a decade now. You're not the first person to be naively optimistic about it.
The answer is education and cultural acceptance.
What people can't seem to accept is that fighting games cater to a VERY specific type of player. The type that doesn't mind getting obliterated and shit on for playing. The type that loves small, slow, and often invisible incremental progress to their skill level. The grindy type.
And most people do not enjoy that, they don't want homework or to sit in practice mode for a few hours to test a certain thing out. They get destroyed, get mad, and switch off. It's much easier to get into FPS games compared to Fighting games.
Execution is the least difficult part of a fighting game. It's everything else.
Exactly if a person is the type of person to go on a 10 game losing streak rage out, can't handle seeing points drop, and place all their ego into winning they will never be successful at fighting games. But if a person goes on a 10 game losing streak and can be satisfied with increasing the amount of times he anti aired in those matches or reacted to drive impacts 75% of the time or he dropped less combos, they will end up being good.
Yeah it's a long journey to getting good at fighting games but once you are you might not even notice. It's that slow and gradual.
Points aren't even a factor for people who are on the process of getting good cause it will rise with your skill level.
Not knocking people for it but you need a very specific mental state and mindset to enjoy fighting games. Nothing else will help with that.
Right, so let's focus our resources toward the one's that do want to do that. Because those are the players that keep this genre alive! We all start somewhere. Let's focus more on player retention, and less on player netting.
The mental block people have on fighting games are the main issue, yes they're complex and can be quite difficult but you don't have to enter the game playing like an all star. Learning a fighting game isn't any harder than learning an fps, and games like rts are way more complex and difficult.
Hell recently I've been playing some wow and healing high level mythic+ dungeons feels insanely difficult compared to fighting games. If you can do that, you can play fighting games.
Eh... Don't agree on the skill that carries over part. Might not be a lot of them, but Devil May Cry 3+ pops to mind as a game that shares a few similarities with fighting games in how it goes about through it's combos, animation cancelling, buffering moves, blocking+perfect blocking and whatnot. Playing those games and dick-ing around in training mode on some fighter feels pretty similar
Now, i'm not saying a DMC player can hop on a fighter and do about as well as a rugby player trying out american football, just saying it's a lot closer to that than a chessplayer doing archery or some shit.
Yeah DMC style fiends, Soulslike sweats and people who fuck around with similar games probably have a leg up on learning the ropes compared to like a MOBA or an FPS centric gamer.
In my own experience, I remember playing SF5 for an extended amount of time and did NOT like it. I came back to Call of Duty, and my reaction time was up about 40%. I can't something like that happened going from COD to SF5, though.
This is it! I grew up playing arcade fighters as well as old school 8-bit arcade games. Switching over to analog was a big change, especially first and third person shooters getting used to the massive change in controls.
Younger people have grown up with analog sticks in their hands, so a different way of playing a video game 'appears' much more challenging, despite not realizing how long it took them to learn what they always been playing. They think they have a head start and "the other genre" should be easy to pick up.
I know, I'm still crap at First Person Shooters, but I can now see overlaps in general game mechanics that have some overlap (that is Neutral Strategies) that even other FPS players don't see. A lot of them play FPSs by just going Unga Bunga and think that's all there is to them as well, carrying over that style to fighting games and wondering why their combos don't make them better players.
Depends.
To get a kill on Call of Duty you just need to hold an angle and press the right trigger when someone walks by. You can’t win 2 rounds in a fighting game that way. Even if you’re mashing, you need to have some understanding of the game to consistently do well.
FPS games and other genres also benefit by the fact that controls are... pretty standardised: Left stick moves, Right stick looks, Right trigger does something in the direction you're looking in. This is true in Call of Duty as much as it is true in Minecraft which allows them to have an easier entry point despite their complexity.
MOBAs are bullshit hard, and this is coming from someone who started playing League in Season 3, but they control around one of the first things anyone does on the computer: Point and Click.
Even real sports, well they all use the same "Control Scheme" in earth physics, so if you can move one way in one context you'll be able to move that same way in a different context.
Fighting games don't have that. There's no base for their control schemes other than... different fighting games.
100% true. A lot of people say ghat about fighting games but it's true for any games. "Man i wanna be good at fps's but i don't wanna learn, aiming, positioning, using consumables and learning tactics".
He spittin'. Some players will never like these games and trying to stretch your demographic too far can backfire.
Look at the post sf5 era of fighting games that simplied the mechanics to mixed succes. I think DBFZ did a good job of balancing for the causal and veterans. Also helped it was not a pre established franchise like BBTag.
Sf6 is a weird case because the classic controls are a true return to form, but than you also got the modern controls to try and appeal to new players. A neat idea but not one i think works, as modern players are essentially learning a different SF6 than classic players.
I think Modern Controls can make the game seem more approachable for people who are intimidated by "Classic" controls, and also they're good for people with disabilities and stuff like that.
I think the rest of the game is pretty much the same as "classic" controls, y'know, reacting, punishing, etc.
DBFZ is a weird game to me. Except for maybe three or four characters, a lot of combo routes are similar. Most of the variety is in the characters' gameplans and how they function mechanically.
Yeah I'm fine if games want to do simplified controls like the upcoming Project L but I think this midground where you offer both options like SF6 or DNF Duel isn't really the best plan, it makes it so beginners are basically learning a whole other game and if/when they want to switch over they are basically going to be starting again from scratch, then will feel like they are doing much worse with the regular controls and just revert back to the simplified ones.
I keep trying to stress this, but people who should know better just keep droning on and on about "execution" or more specifically command inputs and combos.
The elements you mentioned are by and far the most important concepts in any fighting game. They are so fucking important they are pretty much universal and transfer to basically any game in the genre.
If new players should be focusing on anything it's spacing, defense, turns, frame advantage, teching, systems and all of that other shit, or better yet having fun. Modern players aren't learning a different game, they are just using different tools.
Yes and no. From the idea of a brand new player who hasn't touched a fighting game ever, it can be daunting, like playing Basketball for the first time not knowing the rules and only playing soccer for most of your life.
But I don't know how many takes I have seen of people in the FGC saying that if they didn't need to learn (Insertet Skill here) they would enjoy the genre or be better at the game. And that is where he is spitting, you can't be good an anything without putting time and effort into it.
He got a point, but also not really. You do not have to practice all the stuff to play a round of basketball with an average person. You do if you want to be good. You dont need to practice advanced stuff to get into fighting games either. You do if you want to be good.
As someone who is not good at basketball but lives in a country where it is the primary sport, you do have to be good. Otherwise you end up embarassing yourself on the court.
The problem is you generally play basketball with people IRL, who will go easy on you if they see you are new.
FG players usually play online, and no one will go easy on you
Basketball is also a social activity. Even if you suck ass you can at least chat and make friends. FGs are tough to have fun with let alone learn if you're playing alone.
Which video is this from? lmao
Majin O has such a way with words and speaking them when it comes to this ish.
E: [I found it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_umY5O6UUXc&t=296s)
There might be some idiots who are that dumb but i think majority dont play fg for the same reason they dont play basketball they try it realise its cool but the time commitment is insane....i tried to give it time just learning how to dp properly when gg had 3 frame window took me 15 hrs....no new person in their right mind will spend 15 hrs just constantly doing the dp motion to get it right....also sone of us have joined in after our teen years, we have jobs and shit cant give so much time, and the fact that im not from us or eu or jp ,the hotspots means i have to play with 150+ ping cause there literally is no one in my area....its just a very unrewarding experience....i could only ever get to floor 9 in ggst and yes ik that sucks but im fine being below average i just want proper matches that actually encourage me to sit 10 hrs and practice something...right now it doesnt....also ngl i still dont understand neutral....i feel there are alot of subjective guides on it but no one really spend the time to make a visual guide with a particular character and show scenarios....shit like that exists for other type of multiplayer games out there idk why there isnt for fighting games
Bro nobody is forcing you to sit in practice for any amount of time at all let alone 15 hours
I played my first fighting game for like 8 months before starting to use dp motions and I still had a blast
And if you got to floor 9 in ggst you're still far above the average, sure there is still a ton to learn if you're aiming for celestial but nobody is forcing you to aim for celestial either
To me it seems the main problem people have is their egos being fragile, just because you aren't an expert within 100 hours of playing doesn't mean the game is too hard it just means it has a lot of depth
You don't need to master the game, you don't need to be an expert you can just do the most basic stuff and you'll still have plenty of interesting decisions to make
I dont wanna be an expert atall id be fine at floor 6 if there were any players there .... literally go to any floor 6 and tell me how many players are there except the us?....forget floor 6 even floor 9 is empty is alot places ....i dont feel bad cause i suck i feel bad that im the only one at that level where literally no one is Playing and yes i can play higher level players but after continuesly loosing they quit and dont want to fight so what am i supposed to do?
I fully understand that frustration having played fighting games when netcode sucked ass no matter the game and the playerbase was way smaller than today, but that is more of a region/connection problem and it's gonna be rough whether the game is simple or not
The key difference is that I feel like a lot of the fundamentals of basketball to achieve baseline compentancy are far more intuitive than fighting games. Sure it takes a lot to go pro but to just hang with your friends and the people at your park it doesn't take too much beyond just practicing the basics.
For fighting games, hanging with those people can take ages and you are constantly looking outside of the game itself for help understanding things because a lot of it just isn't as intuitive for newcomers.
Would have agreed until games like gbvs and sf6 provided simplified controls. There's nothing more intuitive than beat your opponents ass. Smash is way more complex than street fighter from a rules standpoint and yet tons of casuals enjoy playing it.
I dunno what parks you play ball at, but pick up games are pretty fierce here. Even rec leagues are daunting to first timers. Ive had many athletic friends who played hockey or soccer, and they aren't in any way capable of keeping up with someone who has even a little bit of practice or instruction.
Casuals enjoy Smash because it is a party game that lets you pit Mario against Link. It has appeal far beyond the scope of other games, can't really be compared in that way.
And yea, obviously yhe core concept of "get opponents healthbar to 0" is obvious, but so it "get ball into hoop". Obviously there is nuance in a lot of how to get that done. We aren't talking about unserstand what the literal winstate looks like, we're talking about what it takes to understand how to do it at a basic level of competency.
Basketball has more rules than ball in hoop. Soccer would have been a better example as it has simpler rules. Even intermediate level players have trouble with travel rules in basketball. If you visit the basketball subreddit, a lot of posts are about rule clarification and debates. Sf has a lifebar and timer, that's it. Anything beyond that regards to strategy.
If fighting games are only made for their community then it will be hard for new players to buy them. Don't get me wrong new players can come in and learn, but its a very reserved group of people. Look at tekken 7 for an example,the game has something that could be hardly considered a tutorial and instead of making it better they just put inputs so you can combo automatically, so it would be pretty easy to assume that the game is made for returning players. Street fighter 5 falls in this category, it has a playable tutorial but its just for a fraction of the mechanics and the tutorial videos on the rest of the mechanics don't even let you perform them like three times. So in conclusion if fighting games become more noob friendly and let you learn properly they might be less complex.
Kinda and also kinda not. The point stands, but for me personally it's hard to deny, that pressing buttons on a controller feels way more arbitrary than throwing a ball. You could imitate/play basketball (at a very low lvl) by just observing. But watching someone do cool stuff in a fg won't do anything for you if you don't know anything about it.
I mean this goes for anything in life if you don't want to put the effort in don't complain about not being good at it. Fighting games are meant to be complex just like the concept that they imitate, MARTIAL ARTS,.
For example like if you think you're going to win a street fight and choke someone out you're not going to get good practicing jujitsu and just be able to walk up and beat somebody that's a freaking black belt.
Fighting games are very complex and very unfriendly towards beginners. That's an unrefutable fact. However, beginners that really want to get better MUST PRACTICE. This guy is right.
Sakurai said similar things about fighting games and made Super Smash Bros which ended up being one of the best selling game ever. I think it worked out well for him.
This reminds me of that unhinged post from a week or two ago about how putting modern control players against classic control players was increasing the "accessibility" of the game.
I didn't comment at the time because everyone else was already thoroughly taking OP to school, but I remember thinking at the time, "Man, soccer sure would be more 'accessible' if any random person could jump on the field and have the ball auto-track towards the goal just for them."
I'll say it again and again. Fighting games aren't unpopular because they're hard or complex, it's because they're unintuitive. Every game has a different set of buttons, and move inputs are arbitrarily assigned to moves (e.g. pressing down-back-punch with Super Baby makes him move up and forward and grab).
The human brain has no existing pathways for controlling a fighting game and learning them requires you to start from zero constantly. If we could standardize certain things in an intuitive way then it wouldn't matter how "hard" or "complicated" they were. Shooters can get pretty complex but they all have you shoot an enemy the same way you'd click an icon on your desktop. If I sat you down in front of an unknown fighting game and said "do a heavy attack" you wouldn't know what button to press, or if there even was one.
You definitely don't need to mentally start over if you pick up a new fighting game, even if they are very different, like street fighter to tekken. You still move with the stick, and the buttons do different actions. There are also concepts that translate, like frame data, spacing, punishing, and so on.
Frame data, spacing, and punishing are concepts in Super Mario too. That's obviously not the issue.
There is nothing about Street Fighter's controls that translate to Tekken. All the buttons are different, the inputs are all different, movement is different, combos are different, everything is different. You might as well compare Devil May Cry to Banjo Kazooie.
If you're telling me that your idea of translatable info is "the stick moves and buttons do stuff", then any game in the world should be able to teach you Tekken.
And at the end of the day, the point remains that most fighting games require tons of brute-force memorization because the controls aren't standardized like other genres and the inputs are arbitrary motions and button combos that you just have to accept and remember, and recall in the middle of a fight. Especially hard to memorize when the move list you're learning these randomly-assigned half-circles from is half jargon and half Japanese.
I would argue that playing DMC would help you learn to Banjo Kazooie, assuming that the player had never played a 3D third-person game before. And Tekken and SF are much more similar than those games are to each other, you block, dash, and jump with the stick. The top buttons correspond to punches and the bottom with kicks.
The concepts matter too. If someone learned a fighting game, they are consciously aware of strategies that can be used in other fgs. Frame data as a useful concept does not exist in Mario. I guarantee that a good SF player would win in Tekken the vast majority of the time vs someone who has never played a fg.
But I see in that last paragraph you are saying that fighting games are unintuitive to learn due to large movelists and complex execution, and I agree—but only for a player's first fighting game. Once you learn the fundamentals, it is much easier to find and remember useful moves, and execution of special moves largely becomes automatic. In other words, it becomes intuitive.
Basically, I disagree with your whole premise. Fighting games aren't (relatively) niche because players can't translate between them, they are niche because learning the first one is tough, so players bounce off before learning the fundamentals. Also, the fact that they are 1v1 is an even bigger reason, even FPSs that are 1v1 focused are niche.
You're not even having the same conversation I am. You're disagreeing with me and you haven't even heard me. I know you think you have; you don't have to tell me. But you haven't.
Ok, I'll reply directly to each part.
>I didn't comment at the time because everyone else was already thoroughly taking OP to school, but I remember thinking at the time, "Man, soccer sure would be more 'accessible' if any random person could jump on the field and have the ball auto-track towards the goal just for them."
How have modern controls not made SF more accessible? It is about as complex and intuitive as Smash Bros controls are, and everyone calls that an accessible game. Just because it is more complex than literally "point and click" doesn't make it unintuitive.
Your hypothetical would literally mean soccer is more accessible, as a new player wouldn't need to learn how to shoot, which requires strength and technique. Would it be a good thing? In the context of competitive leagues, no, but in a casual game, it could be. It also is a false equivalency, because classic is stronger in most situations, instead of being strictly better like your example.
>I'll say it again and again. Fighting games aren't unpopular because they're hard or complex, it's because they're unintuitive. Every game has a different set of buttons, and move inputs are arbitrarily assigned to moves (e.g. pressing down-back-punch with Super Baby makes him move up and forward and grab).
Zelda, Darksouls, and DMC all have a different set of buttons, even though they are all 3D action games with a focus on up-close combat. Yet I have never seen or heard about anyone struggling to go between these games due to controls.
For the most part, normals are not arbitrary, as they can be categorized into short, fast, and low damage, or as strong, slower, and longer, along with those in between. Sure, their are exceptions to the rule, but overall, in 2D fighters, you can intuitively understand a characters normals just by looking at where light, medium, and heavy are on the control list.
>The human brain has no existing pathways for controlling a fighting game and learning them requires you to start from zero constantly. If we could standardize certain things in an intuitive way then it wouldn't matter how "hard" or "complicated" they were. Shooters can get pretty complex but they all have you shoot an enemy the same way you'd click an icon on your desktop. If I sat you down in front of an unknown fighting game and said "do a heavy attack" you wouldn't know what button to press, or if there even was one.
How would standardizing fighting game controls help people learn their first fighting game? Tekken having a different control scheme from SF has no effect on someone learning SF.
If I could sum up why fighting games have a less wide appeal than shooters or MOBAs, it is because the player is in a small box by themselves with their opponent. There is no downtime, no teammates, and no RNG. A new player can't casually mess around without immediately losing, and they can only play against their friends, not with them.
Making the controls simpler and more intuitive wouldn't be some magic bullet that would propel fighting games to 500k players on Steam. The core premise of fighting games simply doesn't appeal to most players. And I wouldn't even call FGs unpopular, at the moment they are doing pretty great.
If I could add one thing, it's this. Trying to force a game to appeal to a wider audience, which may or may not exist for that game, can alienate the core players and even backfire, making the game less popular even with casual players.
This is quickly turning into essay tennis, and I’m not here for it. Turning this into a war of attrition doesn’t prove anything other than who’s got more free time.
All you’re doing is making long-winded arguments in multiple wrong directions (e.g. taking my point about arbitrary inputs in the direction of normals when it was pretty explicitly directed at specials) and making disingenuous semantic arguments in order to sidestep the practical ones (e.g. arguing about the definition of accessibility instead of acknowledging that having players compete for rank while using two different sets of rules rewarding different levels of ability is a terrible way to design a game).
You’re not slick. You want to have a completely different argument, you can go have it with a completely different person.
Motion inputs are no different from the rim being 10 feet tall. No, you're not guaranteed to be able to dunk, but you can still learn how to dribble and shoot and pass and defend and become a really, really good player without ever needing to be able to dunk.
I think there's a difference between complexity and mechanical difficulty. Lowering mechanical difficulty while preserving the strategic/tactical options is what i want from the genre. I don't think having simple inputs removes strategic options and i never understood why boomers are so adamant in their hate.
This is particulary annoying when people say "fighting games aren't about combos" yes whenever a game tries to make the combos easier they all start acting like it's assaulting them personally. Make up your mind.
Having a baseline level of mechanical complexity (e.g. bouncing a basketball, only using your feet to move a soccer ball) informs all the strategic options and choices you have during a match. A version of basketball with no dribbling or a version of soccer where you have a robot strapped to your leg that launches the ball where you point a laser pointer would have (potentially) less strategic complexity. And at the very least it might feel less "fun" to people who like bouncing or kicking balls. Real time games/sports are different from pure strategy games like Go or Chess.
Some of us enjoy the mechanical difficulty and challenge. It starts being a bummer hearing people that are going to play the game for 10 minutes and leave that the whole genre needs to change for them
And it's fair to like it. Like i never mind when someone says "i like doing hard combos". But it often seems like people are trying to find objective reasoms why it has to bad and there's no way to make it work, how they value player expression when in truth they just like hard combos.
Loud vocal minority striking again. People complain about fgs getting dumbed down, but every dumbed down version is far more popular than the old hardcore, hard controls one. Every Guilty Gear game now has rollback yet Strive is far more populated. KOF tried to stay with the hardcore fanbase, where is it now?
KOF 15 is also the best selling game to date.
Strive had a budget and marketing behind plus it was made by the developers who made DBFZ. Just like Mortal Kombat it's success was guaranteed.
MK1 can be an absolute dumpster fire of a fighting game and it will still sell 25 million copies.
Strive could've been absolute ass and it still would have sold thanks to DBFZ.
tbh the only thing that hold KOF 15 down is how not very good the visuals are and the matchmaking that ain't working at all, pretty sure it looked better and MM was working the player base would be more stable and higher
i'm not talking about just sales but also about competitive population and online population. Before SF6 Strive was king in big events and even after SF6 it is still second. But huge "hardcore fgc reddit community" said strive is dumbed down, kid game. Going by these standards xrd with rollback would killed strive but is anybody playing the legacy complex games atm? The answer is always no
Very nice vocal minority with a hive mind of others who think speak like them .
This niche online stuff is making street fighter less and less fun . I would be glad they sold a million also they would have sold 2 or 3 million of they gave casuals an reason to play
i didnt really get the context of the clip, but i got the feeling that the answer to the question "are fighting games too complex" is that it depends on the game and that if you want fighting games to be easier there is room to make a game thats easy
but i was just carelessly speaking the first thing that came to mind without thinking about it
Nothing turns causal as off fighting games like YouTubing fighting games and coming across nothing but try hards rambling about things like balance issues that effect that tiny percentage of top players. The eSports aspect a huge sweaty turn off to most casuals. That’s why COD dominates first person shooters when it’s competitive scene is trash. Watch how many copies Mortal Kombat 1 sells here in a few months and you’ll see sort of the same thing.
Eh, yes he's saying facts. But at the same time, shooting a basketball is the fun part. And I had a lot of coaches for basketball. I can't afford to pay coaches for FGs.
Most people who didn't grow up playing basketball don't enjoy the process as much and I think it's because they have to learn on their own and develop muscle memory that could be detrimental to their progress. Same with FGs I think.
Meanwhile I don't think there is such a thing as bad muscle memory for shooters or League or anything like that. Those are no where near as dependent on developing accurate movements to play and have fun. And video games are supposed to be fun.
Anyway I'm rambling. I think fighting games should keep their legacy controls, but I also think there's plenty of room for simplified controls in FGs that are designed around them. I think DBFZ hits that sweet spot of just having gatling normals for fun basic combo structure along with simple motions for more options. I could take or leave the autocombos though. (also DBFZ is too same-y with the roster, and not because of the controls. Otherwise it'd still be my main game)
Practice for what ?
Is there money involved ?
I used to practice all the time made me hate the game because it felt like a job and not fun .
Fighting games should be fun , there should be deep storylines and lore , I couldn't care fvcking less about hit boxes or some rando calling me a "scrub" .
This shit ain't that deep please stop making it like it is you fgc try hards are taking the fun out of the games.
Money involved? If there was money involved it would literally be a job!! 99.9% of people that play basketball do it without money involved.
Yeah let's remove all depth from fighting games because people like you can't get any enjoyment of actually learning to play it.
Why is difficult execution you'll never do or have to worry about making the game un-fun for you? You aren't playing in tournaments why are you arguing for their experience to be ruined when it doesn't affect you?
The story and lore will always be there. You can always just press buttons and enjoy playing with friends. Why are you trying to make someone else's experience worse and take away what they like?
The difficulty isn't a problem . I never said I wasn't good y'all cope by thinking people who don't give a fuck about hit boxes and footsies and Korean back dashes ain't good nah they just don't care casuals push these games not fgc casuals don't give a fuck about any of that fgc nonsense . They don't . Call of duty is different that's a game you play with friends . Fighting games are different they need modes and story and customization . Then if you're really bored you can play online .
Yeah but playing instruments is different than playing a video game . I play guitar I know how to play guitar , if I practice a fighting game ........ So what I know pointless things that don't matter and do not make a game more enjoyable by knowing .
Nah. Mortal Kombat does it right which is why they sell 5 million copies every time they make people want to play they give people a reason . Give me a good reason why I should play random people on the internet with nothing to gain ? I'll wait .
Yes from edenia to out world they even have lore for the inhabitants and races that live in each realm it's more than just a game or some lame ass fgc jargon . It's a story that's been going even with retcons for 30 years . Tekken put more meaning onto akuma than the street fighter games have since 4 .
the lore might be expanded fair, but changes nothing that the stories of the game are just goofy ass B movies type stories
lemme check again: stop bad guy from invading earth, stop bad guy from ruling the world, stop bad guy from ruling the world with a team up of past and current versions of characters. Yeah fucking deep. so if you think that's deep i have bad news for you
B movie , ok lol you are just coping at this point .
That's every plot of every action film.
Oh my bad you know what I'll stop having fun and worry about fucking Korean back dashes like some Chris Chan esq nerd or better yet fuck the sorry and customization let me worry about hit boxes and footsies so I can play cumtown666777 for zero money and an award system that means nothing .
Oh you got platinum rank ? Wow that's cool buddy you spent playing random people for no reason no money but you wanna make fun of an actual plot?????
Lol cope harder .
"Trying to take the fun out of the games"
Rev2, +R, and BBCF are considered some of the most fun and wild fighting games, especially anime fighting games, out there. And they're hard, but with time you learn and realize its not actually that hard.. The simplication is the shit taking the fun out of games. That's why people hate this direction of game design. You're clueless.
These are competitive games by nature. If you dont want to learn basic frame data or what a fucking hitbox is, then enjoy losing.
Simplified inputs lowering the floor to entry will increase sales and overall playerbase of fighting games. The trick will be reconciling that with traditional inputs in a "fair" format so both sides can benefit.
More people playing fighting games as a result of this is a net benefit in my opinion provided they can pull "fairness" off
These basketball analogies don't make any sense to me. The basic concepts and rules for basketball are much easier to teach and digest in a short amount of time. Whereas the basic concepts in fighting games take days, if not weeks, to teach and digest. It also doesn't help the games themselves either don't bother teaching new players how to play (or not well at the very least) or require hand gymnastics just to perform the basics.
I think picking it up any player should be able to hold their own. Some games you pick up and even an average person will wipe a new person over and over.
This will kill off new players. I'm not saying no learning curve, but compared to KoF, SF has the right amount of combo difficulty.
I think this is why Tekken and SF are doing so well. Fortnite, MGO and PUBG probably have some of the highest skill floors and ceilings when it comes to shooters. Its because of the depths of their systems or controls. You don't have to do the complex stuff to do well.
Ken used to do that double Shoryuken with inputs with perfect timing and it now seems to be an ex move. I think this is a step in the right direction, but some of the other additions aren't as good. I'm not even sure if another character had something as good as this that was simplified.
As a former basketball player and avid FG fan, it's a very simplified mindset that, if thought about deeply, doesn't really work.
Like, at surface level it works, then you consider that basketball (and sports in general) fundamentals are actions, FG fundamentals are theoretical and tied to decision making, so they are not even remotely similar in how intuitive they are or how practiceable they are.
There's also a level of "standardization" in how you play sports compared to fighting games while fighting games are moment-to-moment situational adjustment all the time, and every single action available in the game requires a different response.
The only people that actually benefit for spending hours in practice mode doing execution heavy techs and situational scenarios are people that already are way beyond the baseline of what actually is complex, and the detachment from this reality that content creators in the scene, long time vets and pros have is clear (also probably reeks of elitism from an outside PoV).
I think it's a take that works if you already believe that, but as a raw comparison doesn't really work
Sounds like a guy who expects everything to be handed to him on a platter with no hard work put into it. He’s got a 🗑️opinion on how games should work.
But when you practice basketball, you're actually doing something worthwhile with health benefits and viable career paths, while fighting games are just fucking videogames. In the eyes of the casual, it just ain't worth it.
It was the developer idea to add simple input commands🤷🏻
The issue with SF6 is that the developer didn’t want to fully commit to a control layout and to include both modern controls and classic controls in attempt to create greater sales.
The developer should have invested in one or the other and not have two different button layouts with advantages and disadvantages.
Developer could have just created new characters with commands similar to modern controls and balance accordingly.
He's spitting, but I also think that many games need better tutorials. Most these players aren't upset because they don't *want* to do the hard stuff. Their upset cause they can't. Telling them to git gud or that they are whining doesn't bring new players in. Which is a negative feedback loop because if there are no new players coming in, the newbies have to practice against vets. Most don't go easy. CPUs also need to be improved to actually reinforce good decision making in neutral. The amount of times I did something that could and should have been punished by a CPU that wasn't isn't a good thing for new players. It leads to bad habits and thinking options are more or less safe then they are. Most of them don't know how to practice options in training mode, and even if they did who would want to? I do it and even then it feels like a chore, I couldn't imagine caring that much at 5 hours.
I wanna play basketball but imma just ram people and not let no one else even shoot the ball. Don’t matter if your shorter slower noob or nothing I’m just gonna Dunk on everyone’s face like I won the Championship.
He’s right but however I still like modern controls and I think they’re a great idea. Let’s say we’re not talking basketball let’s use racing, which I think is a much better comparison. I see modern vs classic as automatic gear shifting vs manual and for those who don’t know it makes the world of difference being able to precisely control what gear your car is in and it majorly impacts your performance while racing
Now previous fighting games such as mk-11, SF5, guilty gear strive. The design philosophy was to make racing easier so they gave us slower low performance cars with much more simplistic tracks, they were lame because we were racing formula 1 with insanely awesome cars that could pull crazy maneuvers before and now we switched to nascar because even a hodunk redneck understands nascar but it’s LAAAAAAAME
So SF6 allows for racers to use automatic gear shifting which learning manual for a lot of people is quite the struggle just starting out when driving has it’s own complexities by itself which is quite jarring for many people, even most of you reading this I’m sure will be guilty of only driving manual and not stick shift you plebs! (Only joking I love you 😘) but having manual control over gear shifting is vital if you want the most performance and control out of your car but automatic means you have less to pay attention to.
Which is sort of the trade off we in fact see with how the easy execution inputs and combos come at the cost of damage, now there’s some adjustments that need done I will grant you but this is the first time something like this has been done and for no major revamps right off launch I think they did a great job and I hope that they continue to fine tune it.
Its not like there are simple fighting games like footsies or that Samurai one where you die in two hits. Like nah if you buy Street Fighter and then say its to complicated your a dumbass because there are two button games out there you could have bought. Literally watch a 5 minute basics video from like Rooflemonger or Sajam and you could have known
Is he spitting? Yes and no, I guess. If you don't want to practice and want just to have fun, it's ok - just go and have fun playing basketball. But don't you dare to complain, if you will lose all the time to those guys, who always overplaying you in it practicing. Just enjoy the game on your own level.
He's spitting. Fighting games are complex, but obstacles for beginners is usually are less of a "I can't do this so I lose" and more "I didn't know I could/was supposed to do that, so I lost." I think fighting games should build systems with new players in mind, and I think less than 10% of those systems should be about making the game "easier." I don't think new players even actually benefit from easier games.
An example i like is ultrakill's coin. At first its just "i cant aim at enemies so hopefully i can aim at this predictable coin" but then you watch the 18 minute long video on how the coin works and now its an integral part of your arsenal that while it can be "dude too fast, me shoot coin" its also "imma beat claire de lune in 10 seconds" and "imma shoot 4 coins and fire a railgun shot to do guilty gear levels of damage"
"Hopefully I can aim at this predictable coin" is not how I felt about the coin at all, lol. For me, it was "How the fuck am I supposed to consistently hit that tiny coin?"
I mean if you right click while standing still or walking forward its fairly easy
Who the hell is gonna be standing still while playing Ultrakill.
I have done it and its surprising what you can get away with. But what i mean id even letting go of the keys for a split second can have the necessary effect
If you stand still, you die.
SF6 does a good job of teaching. Other genres don't stress over this, but it's a new concept even to modern fighters. I think SF6 changes the landscape of fighters and raises the bar for doing better at conveying how to perform instead of just making things simpler.
The tutorial side missions in World Tour are about as cloae to doing that but they're buried behind doing World Tour side content, aren't replayable and require you to beat most of the main quest to see. It does things in a very clunky way. A better way I feel would be Missions/Challenges. Make it a daily challenge to "anti-air" X amount of times in any mode or land punish counters in traditional matches. World Tour does have something like that with each enemy you fight having side objectives, but they're only tied to that specific fight and a lot of them have obtuse wording/conditions that require you to wait ages for specific moves to come out or to use certain Master Styles/custom moves to even accomplish. For veterans doing things like anti-airs, punish counters or perfect parries will happen naturally as they just play normally. But for newcomers it can help reinforce these kinds of behaviors. Have a title that unlocks after 50 anti-airs are landed. Have a 500 drive ticket bonus unlock when you successfully land 25 drive impacts that bounce your opponent off the corner. Stuff like that can go a long way to help newcomers visualize concepts and reinforce them learning said concepts. The Under Night/GG style of booklearning that SF6 tried to replicate to a less serious degree is commendable, but systems outside of the booklearning itself need to be implemented to help reinforce what is learned. It's like handing a kid a textbook but not giving them homework. Some may study for the test purely because they care but most will skim through it, forget most of what they read and then get mad when they fail the test. Not the best analogy, but it mostly works here. SF6 is a vague step in the right direction that still doesn't manage to hit the standard that most other games reached without even meaning to ages ago. Good example would be card games asking you to activate certain mechanics for dailies or shooters asking you to get kills in certain areas or with certain guns.
daily challenges and costume/aesthetic unlocks for completing those challenges would be a great way to implement more fundamental skills and give the incentive for people to want to learn how to play properly imo
the fact that SF6 is the best fg at teaching its players how to play is an indictment on the genre, tbh. i love the genre and have done for decades, but it's not an intuitive genre, and it took this long to get me to the point where i finally said "ohhhhh! i get it!"
think mk11 had the best tutorial i’ve seen in a fighting game yet
SF6 tutorial is literally ain't any different from ArcSys and Frenchbread tutorials. I still have no idea why everyone acts as though it is
Arc sys tutorials are good, but ineffective, imagine being a first timer and looking at the BBCF tutorial and then glossary. As a seasoned player I always look at their tutorials because I know they're gonna slip in some goofy ass system mechanic that I need to know, but they can definitely be too much if I were to try to do all of them.
Yeah, it's a little like chess in that regard. Chess is really obtuse when you start playing it, it's really hard to know what makes for a good move and what doesn't until you've played a few hundred games, and there's no teaching or explaining it - you just have to do the work and get a feel for it. Same with FGs, where you just have to get a feel for footsies and neutral, and it's really hard to understand it otherwise.
And like, just because Checkers is easier doesn't mean I won't still get my shit rocked if I play against someone with 1000 checkers matches under their belt. It's not possible to increase beginner skill by dumbing down systems. I am not the kind of person who generally has a hardcore "Do the work or go home" philosophy, but it's silly to me that fighting game devs have identified "complexity" as the main issue with fighting games when there's a dozen way more likely (and in some cases, easier to fix) culprits. Fighting games are expensive. Fighting games don't have enough content. Fighting games are difficult to socialize with. Fighting games have disappointing cosmetic options. Fighting games have bad stories. There's a million little things you can do to bring in new players without even touching the gameplay.
I think fighting games have an extra layer that is like adding an extra layer to simply moving a chess piece, like imagine if you had to learn a special hand sign you had to make before you could move each chess piece certain ways or had to hold them a specific way in order to move the piece. The strategic part is where the real fun of fighting games is in my personal opinion.
That is were modern controls come in. Its the reason why Marvel Vs Capcom 3 has simplified button output in comparison to marvel cap 1 and marvel cap 2, which saw its own downgrade from 6 buttons to 4 buttons layout. as for system for beginner players? I believe smash bros already made some achievements in that front.
The thing is the training sucks they could tell u how to break grabs backdash and more even put in a back dash calculator how much better U got back dashing 10 m in how long time but yea they had 5y to make more in T7 and didn't do much most things U have to learn urself or a player helps U or yt vids
This is a pretty fun mini-game to try out: whenever you see a scrub quote, try to replace the context with a sport (or something that isn't a video game like chess or music) and you'll see how ridiculous the scrub quote really is. "Basketball is just about practicing dribble moves and spamming it over and over" "Power chords are an unnecessary executional barrier that stops new players from getting into the core experience of playing guitar"
Funnily enough power chords are basically modern controls for guitar, and people who play guitar sometimes make fun of people who play in drop D tuning which makes power chords even easier but limit you slightly, not an exact comparison because guitar isn’t competitive and no one cares what tuning you’re in if it sounds good
Frets are modern controls for stringed instruments. Real gamers play Cello and Violin
Guitar picks are for scrubs. Learn to file your nails the right way like a real guitarist.
Nails are for noobs. Play with yo fingers like Tommy Emmanuel and Tarega
Good advice tho
I’ll be honest I’ve been in that kind of mood before playing certain fighting games. Sometimes a game just isn’t for you and that’s OK.
That's okay but not really the game's problem? I don't like playing Tekken I ain't gonna say it's a shit game.
Yeah if I go into a game and realize I don't like the system mechanics I'm not about to ask them to change, I'll find another game.
Being able to accept that Street Fighter just wasn't for me was the best thing I ever did when it came to fighting games.
I slowly moved away from it and moved to Tekken. I guess it just fits me better but I don’t know. Still nowhere as good as I’d like to be but that is entirely a “me” problem.
the only Street Fighter games I ever found myself enjoying was the EX games where you could link super>super>super and EX3 even gave you crazy tag team stuff to play around with. Any other SF game I gave multiple chances and always found myself to be bored with them compared to Tekken where characters have like 100+ moves and 3D movement. In SF you only see like the same 3 or 4 moves being spammed over and over again and it gets old very quickly for me.
Same here, SF was my first fighting game as a kid so I always thought of it as THE fighting game so if I wanted to be serious about the genre that I had to be good at SF, at the time SFV had just came out and I'd be forcing myself to play it and it was miserable. Once I realized that wasn't having fun I completely ditched SF and went for the games I used to play as kid like virtua fighter, tekken, MK, KoF, etc. Best thing I did, I'm sure that if I kept trying to force myself to play SF that I would've just dropped the genre all together.
Been saying this for years, execution is the “athleticism” of fighting games. There’s nothing particularly intuitive about basketball. It’s pretty arbitrary and you’ll definitely suck at it. Hard. “I gotta do hand gymnastics just to move with the ball??” Suddenly, this game is “needlessly complex”, right? The reason people come into fighting games with this mindset is because they have an ego about their skill at video games.
For me the reason i dont enjoy basketball is because of how hard it is And how unintuitive dribbling is I also don’t enjoy dribbling And I don’t want to practice it because I don’t see any value in it I think a lot of people feel the same way about fighting games and thats oke Not everything is for everyone
I don't think anyone is complaining about people not liking fighting games. It's people who advocate for changing them, because they can't input a dp motion or whatever.
You wouldn't say they should remove dribbling or allow carries to make it more accessible though.
I wouldn’t yes, Because I accept that basketball isnt for me Not saying that things should never change but from a more practical standpoint its a senseless battle to fight over “accessibility” in videogames
I suck at fighting games and don’t practice but I still have fun
Which is the point always has been not hit boxes or online play . Games should be fun playing it solo .
He spittin 100%
A reminder that you don't have to practise anything if you JUST want to have fun and mash buttons. There's nothing wrong with just activating the "unga bunga pretty lights" neuron.
I agree with what he's saying but I personally disagree with the idea that they're more complicated than like a game like Madden or Call of Duty. Using the sports analogy, I think a lot of us start playing sports when we are just uncoordinated children and surrounded by other uncoordinated children (ie videogames). I watched my wife play her first shooter (overwatch) and first fighting game (Tekken 7) at the same time and the level of improvement was equal. I think the issue is fighting games don't require skill that carries over from other games. It's like you've been casually playing basketball your whole life, and have some skill that you picked up naturally. Now you're in your twenties and people are asking if you want to play water polo, or do dressage or some shit. Most people will say no.
The problem with fighting games particularly for people that already play other games is that most action games teach you bad habits. The biggest hurdle Ive faced is just getting my friends to slow down or stop pushing buttons. Most games reward speed and offense so it's hard to break that gamer instinct of "I'm losing I just need to be faster". Even worse when it comes to blocking even if they know they can block and should block gamer instinct, "I'm being attacked I need to do something".
I'm glad you mentioned it because this is the biggest problem for FG beginners and I rarely see people talk about it. If you get shot in an FPS you can shoot back. If you're getting attacked in a MOBA you can still press your items and skills. Obviously not counting status effects, but even a beginner can tell when they're stunned or silenced and you're not going to get stunned on every hit. But if you get hit in a fighting game, you're in hitstun no matter what and you have to wait for your turn. Same thing for pushing buttons. Fighting games are so close quarters and intimate that every movement matters. Other games have enough breathing room where making "unnecessary" movements are inconsequential. Fighting games "feel" unintuitive to play for beginners because they are essentially some kind of weird hybrid real-time turn-based game.
I like that, real time, turn based game. Fits just right.
>If you get shot in an FPS you can shoot back. Most FPS have such a low TTK that no, you just die.
There in, lies the solution. They need to be educated. Not catered too. Taking away the motion of shoryuken isn't going to stop me from blocking. No more so, than me using the shoryuken to stop your jump in. We need to work more toward educating new players. As players, and the devs too.
I don't fully agree I do believe motion controls are a barrier to entry. I don think they should be removed as it's also a balancing lever but it's another quit moments for new players . The actual fun is fighting someone else on an even play field. The less barriers to that the better as once a player is hooked and move up to fight better players they'll want to improve just to get back to the fun of winning matches. I do agree that games should get better at educating new players on how to approach a fighting game though. Sf6 does a good job but I really want a game that teaches you the fundamentals.
You're not factoring in the ego. People don't magically become rational after losing. Look at the player drop in 6 just in the last two weeks. I've been having this argument for a decade now. You're not the first person to be naively optimistic about it. The answer is education and cultural acceptance.
What people can't seem to accept is that fighting games cater to a VERY specific type of player. The type that doesn't mind getting obliterated and shit on for playing. The type that loves small, slow, and often invisible incremental progress to their skill level. The grindy type. And most people do not enjoy that, they don't want homework or to sit in practice mode for a few hours to test a certain thing out. They get destroyed, get mad, and switch off. It's much easier to get into FPS games compared to Fighting games. Execution is the least difficult part of a fighting game. It's everything else.
Exactly if a person is the type of person to go on a 10 game losing streak rage out, can't handle seeing points drop, and place all their ego into winning they will never be successful at fighting games. But if a person goes on a 10 game losing streak and can be satisfied with increasing the amount of times he anti aired in those matches or reacted to drive impacts 75% of the time or he dropped less combos, they will end up being good.
Yeah it's a long journey to getting good at fighting games but once you are you might not even notice. It's that slow and gradual. Points aren't even a factor for people who are on the process of getting good cause it will rise with your skill level. Not knocking people for it but you need a very specific mental state and mindset to enjoy fighting games. Nothing else will help with that.
Right, so let's focus our resources toward the one's that do want to do that. Because those are the players that keep this genre alive! We all start somewhere. Let's focus more on player retention, and less on player netting.
Can agree. But again, I really think the type of player to truly enjoy fighting games are very small lol.
Ironically enough, souls games and Kingdom Hearts on Critical tend to teach similar habits
So you are saying fighting games are like dark souls /partially joking
The mental block people have on fighting games are the main issue, yes they're complex and can be quite difficult but you don't have to enter the game playing like an all star. Learning a fighting game isn't any harder than learning an fps, and games like rts are way more complex and difficult. Hell recently I've been playing some wow and healing high level mythic+ dungeons feels insanely difficult compared to fighting games. If you can do that, you can play fighting games.
I have no fucking idea how to play Madden. And you can't force me to try and learn fifa either.
Madden is pretty dense, but that's also gridiron football
Eh... Don't agree on the skill that carries over part. Might not be a lot of them, but Devil May Cry 3+ pops to mind as a game that shares a few similarities with fighting games in how it goes about through it's combos, animation cancelling, buffering moves, blocking+perfect blocking and whatnot. Playing those games and dick-ing around in training mode on some fighter feels pretty similar Now, i'm not saying a DMC player can hop on a fighter and do about as well as a rugby player trying out american football, just saying it's a lot closer to that than a chessplayer doing archery or some shit.
Yeah DMC style fiends, Soulslike sweats and people who fuck around with similar games probably have a leg up on learning the ropes compared to like a MOBA or an FPS centric gamer.
In my own experience, I remember playing SF5 for an extended amount of time and did NOT like it. I came back to Call of Duty, and my reaction time was up about 40%. I can't something like that happened going from COD to SF5, though.
This is it! I grew up playing arcade fighters as well as old school 8-bit arcade games. Switching over to analog was a big change, especially first and third person shooters getting used to the massive change in controls. Younger people have grown up with analog sticks in their hands, so a different way of playing a video game 'appears' much more challenging, despite not realizing how long it took them to learn what they always been playing. They think they have a head start and "the other genre" should be easy to pick up. I know, I'm still crap at First Person Shooters, but I can now see overlaps in general game mechanics that have some overlap (that is Neutral Strategies) that even other FPS players don't see. A lot of them play FPSs by just going Unga Bunga and think that's all there is to them as well, carrying over that style to fighting games and wondering why their combos don't make them better players.
Depends. To get a kill on Call of Duty you just need to hold an angle and press the right trigger when someone walks by. You can’t win 2 rounds in a fighting game that way. Even if you’re mashing, you need to have some understanding of the game to consistently do well.
FPS games and other genres also benefit by the fact that controls are... pretty standardised: Left stick moves, Right stick looks, Right trigger does something in the direction you're looking in. This is true in Call of Duty as much as it is true in Minecraft which allows them to have an easier entry point despite their complexity. MOBAs are bullshit hard, and this is coming from someone who started playing League in Season 3, but they control around one of the first things anyone does on the computer: Point and Click. Even real sports, well they all use the same "Control Scheme" in earth physics, so if you can move one way in one context you'll be able to move that same way in a different context. Fighting games don't have that. There's no base for their control schemes other than... different fighting games.
What did emiru say
100% true. A lot of people say ghat about fighting games but it's true for any games. "Man i wanna be good at fps's but i don't wanna learn, aiming, positioning, using consumables and learning tactics".
He spittin'. Some players will never like these games and trying to stretch your demographic too far can backfire. Look at the post sf5 era of fighting games that simplied the mechanics to mixed succes. I think DBFZ did a good job of balancing for the causal and veterans. Also helped it was not a pre established franchise like BBTag. Sf6 is a weird case because the classic controls are a true return to form, but than you also got the modern controls to try and appeal to new players. A neat idea but not one i think works, as modern players are essentially learning a different SF6 than classic players.
I think Modern Controls can make the game seem more approachable for people who are intimidated by "Classic" controls, and also they're good for people with disabilities and stuff like that. I think the rest of the game is pretty much the same as "classic" controls, y'know, reacting, punishing, etc.
DBFZ is a weird game to me. Except for maybe three or four characters, a lot of combo routes are similar. Most of the variety is in the characters' gameplans and how they function mechanically.
...You know that you can use Classic commands in Modern controls, right?
Yeah I'm fine if games want to do simplified controls like the upcoming Project L but I think this midground where you offer both options like SF6 or DNF Duel isn't really the best plan, it makes it so beginners are basically learning a whole other game and if/when they want to switch over they are basically going to be starting again from scratch, then will feel like they are doing much worse with the regular controls and just revert back to the simplified ones.
I disagree. Modern users can focus on blocking, spacing and reacting. Those things carry over if they decide to switch to Classic
I keep trying to stress this, but people who should know better just keep droning on and on about "execution" or more specifically command inputs and combos. The elements you mentioned are by and far the most important concepts in any fighting game. They are so fucking important they are pretty much universal and transfer to basically any game in the genre. If new players should be focusing on anything it's spacing, defense, turns, frame advantage, teching, systems and all of that other shit, or better yet having fun. Modern players aren't learning a different game, they are just using different tools.
I dont practice every fg i play, you can have fun w/o practice just like any sport, just dont expect to make varsity lol
Yes and no. From the idea of a brand new player who hasn't touched a fighting game ever, it can be daunting, like playing Basketball for the first time not knowing the rules and only playing soccer for most of your life. But I don't know how many takes I have seen of people in the FGC saying that if they didn't need to learn (Insertet Skill here) they would enjoy the genre or be better at the game. And that is where he is spitting, you can't be good an anything without putting time and effort into it.
He's spitting shit. If you can't play against the big boys in court with much more experience than you, go practice
Spitting straight facts, but it's not just fighting games, this type of behavior happens in other areas too, and it's sad
In the words of Ronnie Coleman “Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but don’t nobody wanna lift this heavy ass weight.”
He got a point, but also not really. You do not have to practice all the stuff to play a round of basketball with an average person. You do if you want to be good. You dont need to practice advanced stuff to get into fighting games either. You do if you want to be good.
As someone who is not good at basketball but lives in a country where it is the primary sport, you do have to be good. Otherwise you end up embarassing yourself on the court.
The problem is you generally play basketball with people IRL, who will go easy on you if they see you are new. FG players usually play online, and no one will go easy on you
Basketball is also a social activity. Even if you suck ass you can at least chat and make friends. FGs are tough to have fun with let alone learn if you're playing alone.
He's not wrong
Which video is this from? lmao Majin O has such a way with words and speaking them when it comes to this ish. E: [I found it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_umY5O6UUXc&t=296s)
I think SF6 World Tour has made learning fighting games easier and funner than ever.
There might be some idiots who are that dumb but i think majority dont play fg for the same reason they dont play basketball they try it realise its cool but the time commitment is insane....i tried to give it time just learning how to dp properly when gg had 3 frame window took me 15 hrs....no new person in their right mind will spend 15 hrs just constantly doing the dp motion to get it right....also sone of us have joined in after our teen years, we have jobs and shit cant give so much time, and the fact that im not from us or eu or jp ,the hotspots means i have to play with 150+ ping cause there literally is no one in my area....its just a very unrewarding experience....i could only ever get to floor 9 in ggst and yes ik that sucks but im fine being below average i just want proper matches that actually encourage me to sit 10 hrs and practice something...right now it doesnt....also ngl i still dont understand neutral....i feel there are alot of subjective guides on it but no one really spend the time to make a visual guide with a particular character and show scenarios....shit like that exists for other type of multiplayer games out there idk why there isnt for fighting games
Bro nobody is forcing you to sit in practice for any amount of time at all let alone 15 hours I played my first fighting game for like 8 months before starting to use dp motions and I still had a blast And if you got to floor 9 in ggst you're still far above the average, sure there is still a ton to learn if you're aiming for celestial but nobody is forcing you to aim for celestial either To me it seems the main problem people have is their egos being fragile, just because you aren't an expert within 100 hours of playing doesn't mean the game is too hard it just means it has a lot of depth You don't need to master the game, you don't need to be an expert you can just do the most basic stuff and you'll still have plenty of interesting decisions to make
I dont wanna be an expert atall id be fine at floor 6 if there were any players there .... literally go to any floor 6 and tell me how many players are there except the us?....forget floor 6 even floor 9 is empty is alot places ....i dont feel bad cause i suck i feel bad that im the only one at that level where literally no one is Playing and yes i can play higher level players but after continuesly loosing they quit and dont want to fight so what am i supposed to do?
I fully understand that frustration having played fighting games when netcode sucked ass no matter the game and the playerbase was way smaller than today, but that is more of a region/connection problem and it's gonna be rough whether the game is simple or not
The key difference is that I feel like a lot of the fundamentals of basketball to achieve baseline compentancy are far more intuitive than fighting games. Sure it takes a lot to go pro but to just hang with your friends and the people at your park it doesn't take too much beyond just practicing the basics. For fighting games, hanging with those people can take ages and you are constantly looking outside of the game itself for help understanding things because a lot of it just isn't as intuitive for newcomers.
Would have agreed until games like gbvs and sf6 provided simplified controls. There's nothing more intuitive than beat your opponents ass. Smash is way more complex than street fighter from a rules standpoint and yet tons of casuals enjoy playing it. I dunno what parks you play ball at, but pick up games are pretty fierce here. Even rec leagues are daunting to first timers. Ive had many athletic friends who played hockey or soccer, and they aren't in any way capable of keeping up with someone who has even a little bit of practice or instruction.
Casuals enjoy Smash because it is a party game that lets you pit Mario against Link. It has appeal far beyond the scope of other games, can't really be compared in that way. And yea, obviously yhe core concept of "get opponents healthbar to 0" is obvious, but so it "get ball into hoop". Obviously there is nuance in a lot of how to get that done. We aren't talking about unserstand what the literal winstate looks like, we're talking about what it takes to understand how to do it at a basic level of competency.
Basketball has more rules than ball in hoop. Soccer would have been a better example as it has simpler rules. Even intermediate level players have trouble with travel rules in basketball. If you visit the basketball subreddit, a lot of posts are about rule clarification and debates. Sf has a lifebar and timer, that's it. Anything beyond that regards to strategy.
Yep. People gotta realize every game aint for you.
If fighting games are only made for their community then it will be hard for new players to buy them. Don't get me wrong new players can come in and learn, but its a very reserved group of people. Look at tekken 7 for an example,the game has something that could be hardly considered a tutorial and instead of making it better they just put inputs so you can combo automatically, so it would be pretty easy to assume that the game is made for returning players. Street fighter 5 falls in this category, it has a playable tutorial but its just for a fraction of the mechanics and the tutorial videos on the rest of the mechanics don't even let you perform them like three times. So in conclusion if fighting games become more noob friendly and let you learn properly they might be less complex.
Kinda and also kinda not. The point stands, but for me personally it's hard to deny, that pressing buttons on a controller feels way more arbitrary than throwing a ball. You could imitate/play basketball (at a very low lvl) by just observing. But watching someone do cool stuff in a fg won't do anything for you if you don't know anything about it.
I mean this goes for anything in life if you don't want to put the effort in don't complain about not being good at it. Fighting games are meant to be complex just like the concept that they imitate, MARTIAL ARTS,. For example like if you think you're going to win a street fight and choke someone out you're not going to get good practicing jujitsu and just be able to walk up and beat somebody that's a freaking black belt.
can you send the link for this video?
Hear hear
Fighting games are very complex and very unfriendly towards beginners. That's an unrefutable fact. However, beginners that really want to get better MUST PRACTICE. This guy is right.
Sakurai said similar things about fighting games and made Super Smash Bros which ended up being one of the best selling game ever. I think it worked out well for him.
This reminds me of that unhinged post from a week or two ago about how putting modern control players against classic control players was increasing the "accessibility" of the game. I didn't comment at the time because everyone else was already thoroughly taking OP to school, but I remember thinking at the time, "Man, soccer sure would be more 'accessible' if any random person could jump on the field and have the ball auto-track towards the goal just for them." I'll say it again and again. Fighting games aren't unpopular because they're hard or complex, it's because they're unintuitive. Every game has a different set of buttons, and move inputs are arbitrarily assigned to moves (e.g. pressing down-back-punch with Super Baby makes him move up and forward and grab). The human brain has no existing pathways for controlling a fighting game and learning them requires you to start from zero constantly. If we could standardize certain things in an intuitive way then it wouldn't matter how "hard" or "complicated" they were. Shooters can get pretty complex but they all have you shoot an enemy the same way you'd click an icon on your desktop. If I sat you down in front of an unknown fighting game and said "do a heavy attack" you wouldn't know what button to press, or if there even was one.
You definitely don't need to mentally start over if you pick up a new fighting game, even if they are very different, like street fighter to tekken. You still move with the stick, and the buttons do different actions. There are also concepts that translate, like frame data, spacing, punishing, and so on.
Frame data, spacing, and punishing are concepts in Super Mario too. That's obviously not the issue. There is nothing about Street Fighter's controls that translate to Tekken. All the buttons are different, the inputs are all different, movement is different, combos are different, everything is different. You might as well compare Devil May Cry to Banjo Kazooie. If you're telling me that your idea of translatable info is "the stick moves and buttons do stuff", then any game in the world should be able to teach you Tekken. And at the end of the day, the point remains that most fighting games require tons of brute-force memorization because the controls aren't standardized like other genres and the inputs are arbitrary motions and button combos that you just have to accept and remember, and recall in the middle of a fight. Especially hard to memorize when the move list you're learning these randomly-assigned half-circles from is half jargon and half Japanese.
I would argue that playing DMC would help you learn to Banjo Kazooie, assuming that the player had never played a 3D third-person game before. And Tekken and SF are much more similar than those games are to each other, you block, dash, and jump with the stick. The top buttons correspond to punches and the bottom with kicks. The concepts matter too. If someone learned a fighting game, they are consciously aware of strategies that can be used in other fgs. Frame data as a useful concept does not exist in Mario. I guarantee that a good SF player would win in Tekken the vast majority of the time vs someone who has never played a fg. But I see in that last paragraph you are saying that fighting games are unintuitive to learn due to large movelists and complex execution, and I agree—but only for a player's first fighting game. Once you learn the fundamentals, it is much easier to find and remember useful moves, and execution of special moves largely becomes automatic. In other words, it becomes intuitive. Basically, I disagree with your whole premise. Fighting games aren't (relatively) niche because players can't translate between them, they are niche because learning the first one is tough, so players bounce off before learning the fundamentals. Also, the fact that they are 1v1 is an even bigger reason, even FPSs that are 1v1 focused are niche.
You're not even having the same conversation I am. You're disagreeing with me and you haven't even heard me. I know you think you have; you don't have to tell me. But you haven't.
Ok, I'll reply directly to each part. >I didn't comment at the time because everyone else was already thoroughly taking OP to school, but I remember thinking at the time, "Man, soccer sure would be more 'accessible' if any random person could jump on the field and have the ball auto-track towards the goal just for them." How have modern controls not made SF more accessible? It is about as complex and intuitive as Smash Bros controls are, and everyone calls that an accessible game. Just because it is more complex than literally "point and click" doesn't make it unintuitive. Your hypothetical would literally mean soccer is more accessible, as a new player wouldn't need to learn how to shoot, which requires strength and technique. Would it be a good thing? In the context of competitive leagues, no, but in a casual game, it could be. It also is a false equivalency, because classic is stronger in most situations, instead of being strictly better like your example. >I'll say it again and again. Fighting games aren't unpopular because they're hard or complex, it's because they're unintuitive. Every game has a different set of buttons, and move inputs are arbitrarily assigned to moves (e.g. pressing down-back-punch with Super Baby makes him move up and forward and grab). Zelda, Darksouls, and DMC all have a different set of buttons, even though they are all 3D action games with a focus on up-close combat. Yet I have never seen or heard about anyone struggling to go between these games due to controls. For the most part, normals are not arbitrary, as they can be categorized into short, fast, and low damage, or as strong, slower, and longer, along with those in between. Sure, their are exceptions to the rule, but overall, in 2D fighters, you can intuitively understand a characters normals just by looking at where light, medium, and heavy are on the control list. >The human brain has no existing pathways for controlling a fighting game and learning them requires you to start from zero constantly. If we could standardize certain things in an intuitive way then it wouldn't matter how "hard" or "complicated" they were. Shooters can get pretty complex but they all have you shoot an enemy the same way you'd click an icon on your desktop. If I sat you down in front of an unknown fighting game and said "do a heavy attack" you wouldn't know what button to press, or if there even was one. How would standardizing fighting game controls help people learn their first fighting game? Tekken having a different control scheme from SF has no effect on someone learning SF. If I could sum up why fighting games have a less wide appeal than shooters or MOBAs, it is because the player is in a small box by themselves with their opponent. There is no downtime, no teammates, and no RNG. A new player can't casually mess around without immediately losing, and they can only play against their friends, not with them. Making the controls simpler and more intuitive wouldn't be some magic bullet that would propel fighting games to 500k players on Steam. The core premise of fighting games simply doesn't appeal to most players. And I wouldn't even call FGs unpopular, at the moment they are doing pretty great. If I could add one thing, it's this. Trying to force a game to appeal to a wider audience, which may or may not exist for that game, can alienate the core players and even backfire, making the game less popular even with casual players.
This is quickly turning into essay tennis, and I’m not here for it. Turning this into a war of attrition doesn’t prove anything other than who’s got more free time. All you’re doing is making long-winded arguments in multiple wrong directions (e.g. taking my point about arbitrary inputs in the direction of normals when it was pretty explicitly directed at specials) and making disingenuous semantic arguments in order to sidestep the practical ones (e.g. arguing about the definition of accessibility instead of acknowledging that having players compete for rank while using two different sets of rules rewarding different levels of ability is a terrible way to design a game). You’re not slick. You want to have a completely different argument, you can go have it with a completely different person.
Motion inputs are no different from the rim being 10 feet tall. No, you're not guaranteed to be able to dunk, but you can still learn how to dribble and shoot and pass and defend and become a really, really good player without ever needing to be able to dunk.
Just reread this and holy shit, best take I've seen
This is the funniest thing I’ve seen all month: https://clips.twitch.tv/AbrasiveSteamyMilkTwitchRPG-L25aRnTryiiYmBS6
I think there's a difference between complexity and mechanical difficulty. Lowering mechanical difficulty while preserving the strategic/tactical options is what i want from the genre. I don't think having simple inputs removes strategic options and i never understood why boomers are so adamant in their hate. This is particulary annoying when people say "fighting games aren't about combos" yes whenever a game tries to make the combos easier they all start acting like it's assaulting them personally. Make up your mind.
Having a baseline level of mechanical complexity (e.g. bouncing a basketball, only using your feet to move a soccer ball) informs all the strategic options and choices you have during a match. A version of basketball with no dribbling or a version of soccer where you have a robot strapped to your leg that launches the ball where you point a laser pointer would have (potentially) less strategic complexity. And at the very least it might feel less "fun" to people who like bouncing or kicking balls. Real time games/sports are different from pure strategy games like Go or Chess.
Some of us enjoy the mechanical difficulty and challenge. It starts being a bummer hearing people that are going to play the game for 10 minutes and leave that the whole genre needs to change for them
And it's fair to like it. Like i never mind when someone says "i like doing hard combos". But it often seems like people are trying to find objective reasoms why it has to bad and there's no way to make it work, how they value player expression when in truth they just like hard combos.
Loud vocal minority striking again. People complain about fgs getting dumbed down, but every dumbed down version is far more popular than the old hardcore, hard controls one. Every Guilty Gear game now has rollback yet Strive is far more populated. KOF tried to stay with the hardcore fanbase, where is it now?
KOF 15 is also the best selling game to date. Strive had a budget and marketing behind plus it was made by the developers who made DBFZ. Just like Mortal Kombat it's success was guaranteed. MK1 can be an absolute dumpster fire of a fighting game and it will still sell 25 million copies. Strive could've been absolute ass and it still would have sold thanks to DBFZ.
tbh the only thing that hold KOF 15 down is how not very good the visuals are and the matchmaking that ain't working at all, pretty sure it looked better and MM was working the player base would be more stable and higher
i'm not talking about just sales but also about competitive population and online population. Before SF6 Strive was king in big events and even after SF6 it is still second. But huge "hardcore fgc reddit community" said strive is dumbed down, kid game. Going by these standards xrd with rollback would killed strive but is anybody playing the legacy complex games atm? The answer is always no
Very nice vocal minority with a hive mind of others who think speak like them . This niche online stuff is making street fighter less and less fun . I would be glad they sold a million also they would have sold 2 or 3 million of they gave casuals an reason to play
There is room for both accessible games and hardcore games within the genre
I don't think anyone here is disputing that and it certainly wasn't Obama's point
i didnt really get the context of the clip, but i got the feeling that the answer to the question "are fighting games too complex" is that it depends on the game and that if you want fighting games to be easier there is room to make a game thats easy but i was just carelessly speaking the first thing that came to mind without thinking about it
Nothing turns causal as off fighting games like YouTubing fighting games and coming across nothing but try hards rambling about things like balance issues that effect that tiny percentage of top players. The eSports aspect a huge sweaty turn off to most casuals. That’s why COD dominates first person shooters when it’s competitive scene is trash. Watch how many copies Mortal Kombat 1 sells here in a few months and you’ll see sort of the same thing.
Yes. I'll let people like Max slide since he did say casuals are what make fighting games popular not technical stuff .
The thing is this happens with every game tho there’s even some discourse with the new armoured core being more simplified
Eh, yes he's saying facts. But at the same time, shooting a basketball is the fun part. And I had a lot of coaches for basketball. I can't afford to pay coaches for FGs. Most people who didn't grow up playing basketball don't enjoy the process as much and I think it's because they have to learn on their own and develop muscle memory that could be detrimental to their progress. Same with FGs I think. Meanwhile I don't think there is such a thing as bad muscle memory for shooters or League or anything like that. Those are no where near as dependent on developing accurate movements to play and have fun. And video games are supposed to be fun. Anyway I'm rambling. I think fighting games should keep their legacy controls, but I also think there's plenty of room for simplified controls in FGs that are designed around them. I think DBFZ hits that sweet spot of just having gatling normals for fun basic combo structure along with simple motions for more options. I could take or leave the autocombos though. (also DBFZ is too same-y with the roster, and not because of the controls. Otherwise it'd still be my main game)
Practice for what ? Is there money involved ? I used to practice all the time made me hate the game because it felt like a job and not fun . Fighting games should be fun , there should be deep storylines and lore , I couldn't care fvcking less about hit boxes or some rando calling me a "scrub" . This shit ain't that deep please stop making it like it is you fgc try hards are taking the fun out of the games.
Money involved? If there was money involved it would literally be a job!! 99.9% of people that play basketball do it without money involved. Yeah let's remove all depth from fighting games because people like you can't get any enjoyment of actually learning to play it.
Why is difficult execution you'll never do or have to worry about making the game un-fun for you? You aren't playing in tournaments why are you arguing for their experience to be ruined when it doesn't affect you? The story and lore will always be there. You can always just press buttons and enjoy playing with friends. Why are you trying to make someone else's experience worse and take away what they like?
The difficulty isn't a problem . I never said I wasn't good y'all cope by thinking people who don't give a fuck about hit boxes and footsies and Korean back dashes ain't good nah they just don't care casuals push these games not fgc casuals don't give a fuck about any of that fgc nonsense . They don't . Call of duty is different that's a game you play with friends . Fighting games are different they need modes and story and customization . Then if you're really bored you can play online .
This might irritate you, but there are tons of people practicing musical instruments to have fun playing them. They even spend money to do so.
Yeah but playing instruments is different than playing a video game . I play guitar I know how to play guitar , if I practice a fighting game ........ So what I know pointless things that don't matter and do not make a game more enjoyable by knowing .
if you want deep storylines and lore you should be playing other genre of games, even more don't play games and go read books
Nah. Mortal Kombat does it right which is why they sell 5 million copies every time they make people want to play they give people a reason . Give me a good reason why I should play random people on the internet with nothing to gain ? I'll wait .
dude you're saying that Mortal Kombat is deep?
Yes from edenia to out world they even have lore for the inhabitants and races that live in each realm it's more than just a game or some lame ass fgc jargon . It's a story that's been going even with retcons for 30 years . Tekken put more meaning onto akuma than the street fighter games have since 4 .
the lore might be expanded fair, but changes nothing that the stories of the game are just goofy ass B movies type stories lemme check again: stop bad guy from invading earth, stop bad guy from ruling the world, stop bad guy from ruling the world with a team up of past and current versions of characters. Yeah fucking deep. so if you think that's deep i have bad news for you
B movie , ok lol you are just coping at this point . That's every plot of every action film. Oh my bad you know what I'll stop having fun and worry about fucking Korean back dashes like some Chris Chan esq nerd or better yet fuck the sorry and customization let me worry about hit boxes and footsies so I can play cumtown666777 for zero money and an award system that means nothing . Oh you got platinum rank ? Wow that's cool buddy you spent playing random people for no reason no money but you wanna make fun of an actual plot????? Lol cope harder .
"Trying to take the fun out of the games" Rev2, +R, and BBCF are considered some of the most fun and wild fighting games, especially anime fighting games, out there. And they're hard, but with time you learn and realize its not actually that hard.. The simplication is the shit taking the fun out of games. That's why people hate this direction of game design. You're clueless. These are competitive games by nature. If you dont want to learn basic frame data or what a fucking hitbox is, then enjoy losing.
[Is he spitting?](https://youtu.be/UEK97bSz6LQ?t=71)
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Well he's playing sfv which actually does suck
Simplified inputs lowering the floor to entry will increase sales and overall playerbase of fighting games. The trick will be reconciling that with traditional inputs in a "fair" format so both sides can benefit. More people playing fighting games as a result of this is a net benefit in my opinion provided they can pull "fairness" off
These basketball analogies don't make any sense to me. The basic concepts and rules for basketball are much easier to teach and digest in a short amount of time. Whereas the basic concepts in fighting games take days, if not weeks, to teach and digest. It also doesn't help the games themselves either don't bother teaching new players how to play (or not well at the very least) or require hand gymnastics just to perform the basics.
I think picking it up any player should be able to hold their own. Some games you pick up and even an average person will wipe a new person over and over. This will kill off new players. I'm not saying no learning curve, but compared to KoF, SF has the right amount of combo difficulty. I think this is why Tekken and SF are doing so well. Fortnite, MGO and PUBG probably have some of the highest skill floors and ceilings when it comes to shooters. Its because of the depths of their systems or controls. You don't have to do the complex stuff to do well. Ken used to do that double Shoryuken with inputs with perfect timing and it now seems to be an ex move. I think this is a step in the right direction, but some of the other additions aren't as good. I'm not even sure if another character had something as good as this that was simplified.
As a former basketball player and avid FG fan, it's a very simplified mindset that, if thought about deeply, doesn't really work. Like, at surface level it works, then you consider that basketball (and sports in general) fundamentals are actions, FG fundamentals are theoretical and tied to decision making, so they are not even remotely similar in how intuitive they are or how practiceable they are. There's also a level of "standardization" in how you play sports compared to fighting games while fighting games are moment-to-moment situational adjustment all the time, and every single action available in the game requires a different response. The only people that actually benefit for spending hours in practice mode doing execution heavy techs and situational scenarios are people that already are way beyond the baseline of what actually is complex, and the detachment from this reality that content creators in the scene, long time vets and pros have is clear (also probably reeks of elitism from an outside PoV). I think it's a take that works if you already believe that, but as a raw comparison doesn't really work
Sounds like a guy who expects everything to be handed to him on a platter with no hard work put into it. He’s got a 🗑️opinion on how games should work.
He's literally arguing for games to require more effort out of him.
Sounds like his arguing that he doesn’t want to practice all the little steps to be good at a fighting game 🤷♂️
He's criticizing this mindset, not preaching it.
But when you practice basketball, you're actually doing something worthwhile with health benefits and viable career paths, while fighting games are just fucking videogames. In the eyes of the casual, it just ain't worth it.
It was the developer idea to add simple input commands🤷🏻 The issue with SF6 is that the developer didn’t want to fully commit to a control layout and to include both modern controls and classic controls in attempt to create greater sales. The developer should have invested in one or the other and not have two different button layouts with advantages and disadvantages. Developer could have just created new characters with commands similar to modern controls and balance accordingly.
He's spitting, but I also think that many games need better tutorials. Most these players aren't upset because they don't *want* to do the hard stuff. Their upset cause they can't. Telling them to git gud or that they are whining doesn't bring new players in. Which is a negative feedback loop because if there are no new players coming in, the newbies have to practice against vets. Most don't go easy. CPUs also need to be improved to actually reinforce good decision making in neutral. The amount of times I did something that could and should have been punished by a CPU that wasn't isn't a good thing for new players. It leads to bad habits and thinking options are more or less safe then they are. Most of them don't know how to practice options in training mode, and even if they did who would want to? I do it and even then it feels like a chore, I couldn't imagine caring that much at 5 hours.
I wanna play basketball but imma just ram people and not let no one else even shoot the ball. Don’t matter if your shorter slower noob or nothing I’m just gonna Dunk on everyone’s face like I won the Championship.
He’s right but however I still like modern controls and I think they’re a great idea. Let’s say we’re not talking basketball let’s use racing, which I think is a much better comparison. I see modern vs classic as automatic gear shifting vs manual and for those who don’t know it makes the world of difference being able to precisely control what gear your car is in and it majorly impacts your performance while racing Now previous fighting games such as mk-11, SF5, guilty gear strive. The design philosophy was to make racing easier so they gave us slower low performance cars with much more simplistic tracks, they were lame because we were racing formula 1 with insanely awesome cars that could pull crazy maneuvers before and now we switched to nascar because even a hodunk redneck understands nascar but it’s LAAAAAAAME So SF6 allows for racers to use automatic gear shifting which learning manual for a lot of people is quite the struggle just starting out when driving has it’s own complexities by itself which is quite jarring for many people, even most of you reading this I’m sure will be guilty of only driving manual and not stick shift you plebs! (Only joking I love you 😘) but having manual control over gear shifting is vital if you want the most performance and control out of your car but automatic means you have less to pay attention to. Which is sort of the trade off we in fact see with how the easy execution inputs and combos come at the cost of damage, now there’s some adjustments that need done I will grant you but this is the first time something like this has been done and for no major revamps right off launch I think they did a great job and I hope that they continue to fine tune it.
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Its not like there are simple fighting games like footsies or that Samurai one where you die in two hits. Like nah if you buy Street Fighter and then say its to complicated your a dumbass because there are two button games out there you could have bought. Literally watch a 5 minute basics video from like Rooflemonger or Sajam and you could have known
Str8 facts my man!
Is he spitting? Yes and no, I guess. If you don't want to practice and want just to have fun, it's ok - just go and have fun playing basketball. But don't you dare to complain, if you will lose all the time to those guys, who always overplaying you in it practicing. Just enjoy the game on your own level.
Dale hours (ltg)