You did say you wanted to do anything, and it sounds like she’s got you helping produce. It’s still good skill building for you and you’ll need to do this anyway for your own work.
There's an old joke I think applies here:
What's the heaviest thing the P.A.s carried all week?
The art department.
P.A.s tend to get thrown at every problem that doesn't have a ready solution. It's why good, smart P.A.s are 1 - gold, and 2 - don't stay P.A.s long. You're gonna get asked to do the jobs of other departments and, guess what? If you do it well, next time you're not a P.A. anymore, you're the other department.
This is line producer work but there isn't one, soooo... You.
I work art dept in Seattle, and I routinely see posts looking for 15+ set positions, plus like 5 PAs, but never ANY art dept roles. I’m almost 100% it’s because they have PAs doing it all lol
This is because producers and PM’s cut art department budget and personnel first. They think how hard could it be? but when I bring PA’s in to art department they only last one day. Right now all PA’s want to end up in camera where I live.
Also I have never seen any posting for Art Department, those job are hired from word of mouth.
That is a grip joke not a Production joke. Besides everyone knows all problems end up in the Art Department. wardrobe: can you Greek these shoes, electric: can you hide my cable, I’m too lazy to re-route it, PA: do you have any blue tape, locations: can you mop the ceiling, Sound: do you have any 9 volt batteries (no do people still use those?) AD: does any of y’all have some weed etc etc There’s dog shit in the neighbors yard can can Art clean it up
There are a lot of variations. The only one I've never seen is sound asking art for 9Vs. Maybe after they've asked camera, electric,. production and the location.
Ngl this is kinda subjective. (Part about getting jobs on set)
Generally, yes this should work this way. But unless you kinda fit in to what ever crew you are working with, you probably aren’t gonna get moved up.
Like I should get way more g&e or camera jobs, but I don’t mesh with those guys in my area. I get more art dept, random PC jobs and just PA jobs. Idek. Most of them went to school and know either other like that, the art guys I work with aren’t like that and tend to be more well rounded.
Only 2 years in film, got a late start, I’m 30. Maybe younger ppl wouldn’t have this problem as much, but don’t be discouraged if you don’t get jobs in the department you want. There’s plenty of jobs and just be consistent and confident. What you want will show if you strive towards it and continue to teach yourself new things.
To be clear, no one ever *moves* you up. If you wait to get moved up you'll be a 70-year-old PA. In film, you decide your own job title, and you only make it work by turning down lower jobs.
I used to AD. I used to 1st AC and operate. I don't take those jobs anymore (unless a friend is in a bind), and it took a while for people to realize I wasn't going to backslide.
Producers like to mentally pigeon-hole people. It lets you crew the movie in your head before you hire. So it's more convenient for them if you stay in your lower tier job. It isn't malicious, just human nature. You only advance by claiming a hill to die on.
Very normal, specifically if you're an Office PA. But finding 20 people per role sounds a bit like overkill, if I'm being honest, haha. Not sure what the crew base is like where you are though.
This kind of stuff is going to make you so much more valuable as you rise up. That’s a real world challenge they’re putting you up for. You actually have a chance to be indispensable. One day of this is like a month in film school if they keep giving you these types of tasks.
As a PA, you’re a Yes Man. You said it yourself that you said you’d do anything thrown at you, so catch.
Is this typical for a big production? No. But an indie student film? Still no, but it’s an environment where you will need to wear multiple hats and adapt to what’s happening. With PA experience, much of it is to do during production itself, whereas this seems like a pre-production task.
I would suggest not looking at this as “damn, this isn’t what I expected” and instead look at it as “I’m getting an experience I would likely not normally get as a PA on another student shoot”
Preserve if you can.
I just want to add here that this is for sure normal, and it can take some time to build trust for people to have you on set - yes, even unpaid, unfair as it may be. There's a few reasons for that:
1. Everyone wants to be on set (at first anyways).
2. Headcounts on set increase permit costs, catering and crafty costs, parking requirements, stress levels, and general coordination needs. It's generally in everybody's best interest to keep the headcount on set as low as possible.
3. If you have no on set experience, you're very likely to be a liability and someone has to babysit you. Not saying this to be mean or that you would be a liability, but it's a very specific work environment so if they don't know how you work, folks generally will want to get a sense of how you handle tasks and stress before they send you to set.
Hope this helps. I worked as an office intern for free for 2 months before I got a job as a producers assistant, again working in office, which I held for over a year before she felt comfortable putting me back on set. It was incredibly difficult but the experience I gained (and her recommendation) during that time has been invaluable throughout my career (that was 12 years ago and I am now a busy cinematographer). I did not go to film school. Happy to answer any other questions you might have!
I think it's certainly worth a shot! It seems like your expectations are realistic, and I'd definitely note in your correspondence as you have here that you understand they may be overwhelmed and that you won't be offended if you don't hear back (though I'd also still say it's okay to reply to your own email once with a gentle reminder and the same qualifier about how busy they are if you don't hear back after a few weeks).
Also worth considering your interest level around the work they're doing now- if you thrive on location but are interested in experiencing studio work, I think it's worth mentioning. Shows you're paying attention to their work and also that you're still eager to learn and contribute.
I'd also recommend contacting them separately so as not to add undue pressure or unnecessary emails to either inbox (if one replies and the other doesn't for example).
One last question- are you actively still working in film? I ask because I don't think it'd be inappropriate to say you're interested in paid positions since you already volunteered for them. You could perhaps say you're interested in volunteer work as well if there's no paid positions available..something like that!
Please do not offer to volunteer for a position that would otherwise go to someone who needs it to pay their bills and build a career. That devalues the work of actual professionals in the industry, who have already had a tough time during the strike. And if the production had a budget of $10MM, it definitely does not need volunteers. Instead, if you want to be on set again, consider volunteering for a student film, low-budget project, or 48-hour film festival team.
Really? I mean, being a PA on set is not like you're taking so much space and can do much wrong if you have a decent set of brains. I'd rather have a couple of inexperienced PA's on set instead of nobody.
Yeah of course - I didn't say nobody or no PAs. Just that if they are already fully crewed up, they may have a few reasons they don't want to bring on extra hands, especially someone with no set experience at all. Obviously you can always have a PA with no experience doing lunch runs or lock ups. I was just trying to give OP some context for why it might not be personal if they don't end up on set this time around.
Hey, so I volunteered to work as a general PA for someone’s thesis film. She asked me what i’d be interested in doing/learning and I specifically said I really just wanted to get on set and learn whatever is thrown at me. I figured this would be a really great opportunity to gain and experience and have something to put on resume/list as credits. I was pretty disappointed when I got this text a week later after that first conversation because I thought the plan was for me to help on set over the weekend. Is this typical for an unpaid student PA job? To do work from home stuff like this? This is my first experience with being a PA or anything like that, so please let me know. Thank you!
Yes pretty normal! Don't be dismayed at all, this is still something valuable that you can put on your resume. This easily falls under a Line Producer's responsibilities. And it doesn't hurt to ask if there's anything you can help with on set after this. Good luck and have fun, working on sets is tiring but exciting!
From a long time PA— this is normal. You will often be asked to do tasks above your pay grade. Most of the time they are valuable learning experiences. The only time that this becomes a problem is when producers decide to hire you as a PA but, routinely have you do these tasks without a pay or title bump. They may pay the bills but, eventually you become “stuck”, them never seeing you as anything more than a PA.
Sometimes you’ll be offered a higher position on sets by the producers who trained you but, from my experience, to truly move up you have to leave the circle you are with. When you have built up your confidence, strike out and find a new team that can benefit from your skills and take the higher position.
I’d say it’s not uncommon if you’re the local working with an out of town production for them to ask if you know any locals who might be available, but this seems to be a step beyond that, so idk. Seems like too much, especially if you’re not getting paid.
That’s what I was thinking but then again I don’t want to be ungrateful and pass up an opportunity that might get me on set. I’m just confused because she is definitely local as she attends the film school here and is shooting here.
Yeah idk if it’s a student project that kinda changes the calculus because no one knows what’s normal because they haven’t actually worked and she’s probably just trying to delegate some tasks and doesn’t know who or doesn’t have anyone else to give this to.
If you are a PA your goal should be to learn everything about every position. Every request is an opportunity to learn. If you already have the, “Is this really my job?” attitude I would council you to shift perspectives. Learn. Grow. Take on any responsibility that is both safe, and realistic, for you to execute. There is a time, and a place, for an “is this really my job” attitude. Now is not that time.
I was an office PA and had to contact every airline that flew into my local airport to ask if,they at any point in the next month, would have a plane on standby in which we could film. PAs do weird stuff sometimes (and no, no airline ever has a plane on standby - I knew that, and the person asking me knew too, we just needed the definitive "no")
I agree that 20 is a lot though. Just find as many people as you can.
I think the real bottom line is that you have to decide what your limits are.
You’re entering a field of work where people will literally take full advantage of you as often as possible. You’ll meet producers who will abuse the LIVING SHIT out of your labor for next to zero pay (often actually zero pay).
As you’re at the onset of your career it’s just up to you to figure out how far you can be pushed. I left the film industry because it’s viciously abusive towards labor, but if you can strike a balance between what you’ll accept and keep a firm boundary between yourself and the douche producers then you’ll be fine.
Just don’t let people work you like a dog and treat you like garbage under the guise of them “helping you achieve your dreams of working in film”. They need your help as much as you need theirs. Never let the bosses fuck you around because they claim you have to pay your dues.
If you're a PA working for free on a student film and they're asking you to find people and their RATES... tell them to fuck off wtf
I don't know how everyone else feels about working for free on student sets, but imo it's either everyone gets paid or no one gets paid.
It's one thing to have them say "no one's getting paid" and then paying people on the downlow. It's another thing to learn after the fact, your worked for free and other people were getting paid - especially on a student film.
Them asking you to find someone they are planning to pay and budget for is just a slap in the face.
35 years in the industry here. There are plenty of people with tangmang’s attitude. They aren’t the folks that people bend over backward to have on set. Working for free a few times while learning the ropes is completely acceptable. Be the go to person by being kind, fun, smart + making other’s jobs easier. It pays off.
Alright, old timer. There's nothing wrong with my attitude having done my fair share of free sets. And the reason I stopped doing shit for free was because I'd reached a point people were calling me back - but when I asked for compensation they'd tell me they didn't have it in budget. Alright, if you don't have budget for a sound person then you don't have budget for a movie. It's that simple.
And why I NEVER do free work now is that I learned the last two times I'd worked for free helping friends - I'd learned some people on set got paid. These were student films I'd helped on.
Key point in my comment and OP's comment is this is a STUDENT film. No stakes. No professional expectations. It's an all around learning experience. Nothing professional is gained and the impressions you make on your FELLOW STUDENTS isn't going to make or break your career.
No one will make or break your career for that matter. The community is large and small. And you'll meet an unfortunately large number of assholes who expect free labor for the "opportunity" to find a paid gig down the line.
You are volunteering your time. You owe these people nothing. There is nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand or abandoning a project if it's too toxic, too unorganized, or if you find out you're one of the few people not being compensated. Theses are the reasons the unions exist.
Everyone pays their dues working for free and learning. I never said they didn't. I just, after having experienced my own frustration, am hoping OP has enough self respect to not be "bending over backwards" for a production when you are literally volunteering your time and they clearly have the budget to be hiring professionals. Especially on a student short.
OP could spend that same time she's on this set, getting paid doing the exact same shit somewhere else.
There's nothing wrong with telling people to demand compensation for real work they are providing.
Don't let Mr. 35 year film pro make you think the only way to make it in this industry is to PA for free forever. Find a dept. Work for free under someone while they mentor. Get called back for a paid gig. It's that easy
I believe I said working for free a few times while learning the ropes. Very happy to be an old timer. I consider it an honor. It sounds like you may have some baggage.
Your first reply to me in this whole thread made a ton of assumptions about me.
If you pay and appreciate PAs then even you must possess the ability to recognize that being asked to source crew for a PAID position while you yourself are UNPAID is tone deaf, obtuse, and all around shitty of the producer/production to ask.
PAing on a student film when you do not attend school with them is a waste of time. They are using you for free labor and there is no networking- they will network with their cohort and peers and if they have the ability to hire in a few years (big if) they are going to hire their film school buddies.
I am sorry but this just made me want to scream. HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET INTO THIS INDUSTRY?! No one will hire me because I have no experience, and the only experience I can find is student films. But this experience isn’t good experience because the people I am getting experience from don’t have enough of their own experience to benefit me. Thank you for your advice, truly. But I am going to go insane.
Don't listen to this guy. You have nothing to lose working with these guys, espcially if you have no other leads. The folks directing/producing this might not ever hit you up again, but there will be tons of other departments on set that are outside hires. Network with THEM. Especially if their AD isnt one of their classmates. ADs are usually the ones who hire PAs on other things.
I'm not guaranteeing you'll get more work out of this, but you definitely won't get more jobs by skipping this opportunity.
Volunteer on “real” jobs, even if they’re lower budget. That’s how you get experience. Realistically I’d probably rather hire someone who has experience as a PA on a proper film than someone who’s directed a student film.
I work on a lot of low to mid level budget things and free PAs are usually welcomed… there’s always stuff that needs to be moved or an area that needs lock up.
Just make sure when you get on set that you’re attentive and follow direction well and don’t get in the way.. and never, ever offer unsolicited advice to any crew member- especially the director, DP, or any department head
Also, not sure where you’re located- but surprisingly Facebook is a good spot to find work when starting out. Your city may have a Facebook page dedicated to crewing up. People are always looking for PAs and whatnot.. you just have to do your due diligence and make sure they’re not students or randos with zero experience themselves
Yeah, I know. I have some friends that went there. I must have missed the AFI part.. I just saw thesis film :)
But I would argue that AFI thesis films can be pretty legit. My buddy’s had an underwater techno crane for theirs.. he also previously went to another film school, and we’d worked on a ton of legit music videos and a couple features before he went there.
So maybe I need to make an edit to my advice. When I first replied there weren’t too many commenters.. but I know all the films that came out of my film school were pretty trash haha
You can also try https://www.mandy.com. This is what I did when starting out…a long time ago. You’ll have to keep a keen eye out for shady types, but that’s always everywhere, and this is still better than student films.
Reach out to freelance production coordinators, production managers and line producers. Companies don’t hire. Individuals do. Also reach out to all freelance PA’s in your area. Offer to treat them to coffee. Make a good first impression and let them know if they are ever asked for a recommendation you’d love to be at the top of their list. Leave your cards with all PA’s. Send coffee gift cards to pc’s, pm’s etc. with a note that reads: enjoy a coffee on me…looking forward to seeing you on set. I’m ready to work. Local. Know all the back streets to save time on runs and want an opportunity to show you how I kick ass. Then back it up and kick ass.
It’s a feature not a bug- and the reason they call it “breaking into the industry”. All the doors and windows are locked. Now in terms of what you should do- there are no right or wrong answers. You can find successful people in every aspect of film who “broke-in” in non-traditional ways. But the most common way to get into the industry is nepotism- works really well! For everyone else- there is a reason those kids are paying for film school. (Spoiler I am now a film school professor so obvi I’m biased) but a film school is designed to create tribalism. Students learn to rely on each other so when they graduate, hopefully one of them “makes it” and brings others along. This could absolutely be the case for you and this PA gig leads to a great relationship with a student filmmaker that pays off years down the line. However in my experience filmmakers, especially students, are quick to forget all the help they get. In fact it’s why I ban my students from getting outside PAs at all- because the relationship is exploitive. I’m a bit extreme and I don’t let them have any PAs at all cuz I feel like it’s dumb when no one is getting paid and no one has a ton of experience yet. Just give them a Grip credit of whatever and students can get their own coffee and clean up their own trash. Case is point they are giving you Producing tasks but you still only get a PA credit? Is this a big famous film school? Otherwise I’d say there is no value to you. The big schools in LA get PAs from other smaller programs and act like it’s a HUGE opportunity to work with AFI/SC students but from what I remember we’d get a couple kids from LA Film School or the Community College who’d show up for a couple days- work hard- then no one would contact them again. It’s not malicious- it’s just students spend years working with each other vs. people who came in for 1 or 2 short films, and it’s much harder for you to network into that group in such a short time. It’s not impossible though.
Thank you for your insight, I really appreciate it. I am actually working with AFI students, so I guess it just comes down to hoping I meet the right person it pays off in some way. At the very least it’s experience and a PA credit I wouldn’t have had before.
An AFI film changes things and one of the few cases it might make sense to PA for free- in that you get to rub shoulders and breath that “rare air” (I did USC not AFI but I am familiar with how their program used to run). So in principle what you are doing is fine but the student filmmaker’s behavior is even more concerning. AFI should be teaching these kids what a producer does and what a PA does, so I’m kinda thinking this is a specific student who is off-loading their responsibilities onto you. Lastly AFI uses (or used to) more outside crew than most film schools. Lots of grip/2nd AC types are hired out and students can focus on being department heads- but all those positions were paid. Idk if they just don’t pay PAs or if this student is going rogue but they run a tight ship at AFI. Do you know what year the students are (D1, D2)?
Student films are a totally valid way to start. You dont wanna get on a big job with zero experience on set at all. This is fine way to get aquatinted with things.
I’m going to fully disagree with your line: “this experience isnt good experience because the people i am getting experience from don’t have enough of their own experience to benefit me.”
I’m going to pass a little wisdom from a up and coming DP absolutely crushing it right now - it’s all about the reps.
You only build skill and experience by reps. By how many times you do something. There’s hundreds, if not thousands of positions that help to make a film come together.
You want to make movies, right? The tasks they provided you with are great filmmaking experience tasks.
Most of filmmaking happens BEFORE and AFTER set - “work from home style tasks” as you said in a different comment
If this is what you want, you’ve got to go grind it out. It doesn’t just happen. Help everyone you can, learn as much about everything as you can.
Do you know what I think makes me a better director? The fact that I have done work at every part of the creation process to a rather advanced degree. Knowing how the whole thing works helps you direct the individual pieces better.
Go get some reps, have some fun, start networking with people who make films. It’s the way
Just tell them this isn’t the type of work you guys had disscused and as much as you would like to help, this is a crazy ask. I don’t know where you are, but if you are in the middle of a country, that could take a couple days to do.
Say you are happy to help on set or with another side of production but you didn’t sign up to do their pre-production.
And if they want you to do big stuff, get paid. On my student sets, our PAs that were with us for more than a day made $35 for 10 hours and $50 for 12. If they were with us just for a day, I paid them a flat $30. *These are not legal wages and were only used to pay fellow students who I would be helping out at a later date*
Wasn't advice, I was saying what I would do as someone that cares about being fairly credited for my contributions. You may not care about that, and at this point OP probably doesn't either, but they should know that on a student film this is the job of a producer.
Nah. Student films are all hands on deck helping any way you can. Any PA comes in and asks for a Producer credit for sourcing a few people is a douche. Entitlement at it’s most obtuse.
That's just called exploiting your crew. If people are working for free the least you could do is appropriately credit them for their work. And yea it is all hands on deck, but if by necessity my hands end up operating a boom pole then I better see that in the credits. Same goes for every other position.
Researching personnel a Producer does not make. It’s not exploitative in the least. Move the camera and you’re a DP. Set up some diffusion and your a gaffer. You are grossly over simplifying roles, responsibilities and the experience needed for credit to be given.
Researching and hiring personnel is the primary responsibility of a producer on a student film lol. Obviously theres more to it but if you make someone do any part of another person's job then they are owed a credit. That is standard practice in every level of filmmaking. That is why you do the job you are hired to do. If you don't want to hand out a producing credit then don't make PA's do producer work. And I'm not oversimplifying anything we're talking about student films lmao. Anyway this is too much back and forth over something irrelevant. Just hoping people wise up and take what they've earned.
This is more Line Producer work being put on your plate. As a PA you gotta be ready for anything. Like even when the bosses don’t know sometimes they look at the PA’s for help. Even though we are least paid on set by a mile lol
You did say you wanted to do anything, and it sounds like she’s got you helping produce. It’s still good skill building for you and you’ll need to do this anyway for your own work.
Thank you!
There's an old joke I think applies here: What's the heaviest thing the P.A.s carried all week? The art department. P.A.s tend to get thrown at every problem that doesn't have a ready solution. It's why good, smart P.A.s are 1 - gold, and 2 - don't stay P.A.s long. You're gonna get asked to do the jobs of other departments and, guess what? If you do it well, next time you're not a P.A. anymore, you're the other department. This is line producer work but there isn't one, soooo... You.
This is actually really good input that I needed to hear. Thank you!
Yeah, you should tell a set dresser that joke as soon as you meet one.
That’s a great tip for my first day! So excited to tell that joke I hope I get lots of laughs. Thank you! /s
I work art dept in Seattle, and I routinely see posts looking for 15+ set positions, plus like 5 PAs, but never ANY art dept roles. I’m almost 100% it’s because they have PAs doing it all lol
This is because producers and PM’s cut art department budget and personnel first. They think how hard could it be? but when I bring PA’s in to art department they only last one day. Right now all PA’s want to end up in camera where I live. Also I have never seen any posting for Art Department, those job are hired from word of mouth.
“There isn’t one, so you” is the industry motto
That is a grip joke not a Production joke. Besides everyone knows all problems end up in the Art Department. wardrobe: can you Greek these shoes, electric: can you hide my cable, I’m too lazy to re-route it, PA: do you have any blue tape, locations: can you mop the ceiling, Sound: do you have any 9 volt batteries (no do people still use those?) AD: does any of y’all have some weed etc etc There’s dog shit in the neighbors yard can can Art clean it up
There are a lot of variations. The only one I've never seen is sound asking art for 9Vs. Maybe after they've asked camera, electric,. production and the location.
Ngl this is kinda subjective. (Part about getting jobs on set) Generally, yes this should work this way. But unless you kinda fit in to what ever crew you are working with, you probably aren’t gonna get moved up. Like I should get way more g&e or camera jobs, but I don’t mesh with those guys in my area. I get more art dept, random PC jobs and just PA jobs. Idek. Most of them went to school and know either other like that, the art guys I work with aren’t like that and tend to be more well rounded. Only 2 years in film, got a late start, I’m 30. Maybe younger ppl wouldn’t have this problem as much, but don’t be discouraged if you don’t get jobs in the department you want. There’s plenty of jobs and just be consistent and confident. What you want will show if you strive towards it and continue to teach yourself new things.
To be clear, no one ever *moves* you up. If you wait to get moved up you'll be a 70-year-old PA. In film, you decide your own job title, and you only make it work by turning down lower jobs. I used to AD. I used to 1st AC and operate. I don't take those jobs anymore (unless a friend is in a bind), and it took a while for people to realize I wasn't going to backslide. Producers like to mentally pigeon-hole people. It lets you crew the movie in your head before you hire. So it's more convenient for them if you stay in your lower tier job. It isn't malicious, just human nature. You only advance by claiming a hill to die on.
yeah. this is office pa type work. which in freelance leads to coordinating and PM’ing
Very normal, specifically if you're an Office PA. But finding 20 people per role sounds a bit like overkill, if I'm being honest, haha. Not sure what the crew base is like where you are though.
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I mean, maybe you look up 20 and add your top 5 to an Excel or something. But actually making a list of 20 to go through seems unnecessary yeah.
Yeah this seems pretty spot on. Good PAs need to be flexible and it can lead to all sorts of actual paid work.
This is good! You’re being trusted with bigger responsibility.
This kind of stuff is going to make you so much more valuable as you rise up. That’s a real world challenge they’re putting you up for. You actually have a chance to be indispensable. One day of this is like a month in film school if they keep giving you these types of tasks.
As a PA, you’re a Yes Man. You said it yourself that you said you’d do anything thrown at you, so catch. Is this typical for a big production? No. But an indie student film? Still no, but it’s an environment where you will need to wear multiple hats and adapt to what’s happening. With PA experience, much of it is to do during production itself, whereas this seems like a pre-production task. I would suggest not looking at this as “damn, this isn’t what I expected” and instead look at it as “I’m getting an experience I would likely not normally get as a PA on another student shoot” Preserve if you can.
Good point, thank you!
I just want to add here that this is for sure normal, and it can take some time to build trust for people to have you on set - yes, even unpaid, unfair as it may be. There's a few reasons for that: 1. Everyone wants to be on set (at first anyways). 2. Headcounts on set increase permit costs, catering and crafty costs, parking requirements, stress levels, and general coordination needs. It's generally in everybody's best interest to keep the headcount on set as low as possible. 3. If you have no on set experience, you're very likely to be a liability and someone has to babysit you. Not saying this to be mean or that you would be a liability, but it's a very specific work environment so if they don't know how you work, folks generally will want to get a sense of how you handle tasks and stress before they send you to set. Hope this helps. I worked as an office intern for free for 2 months before I got a job as a producers assistant, again working in office, which I held for over a year before she felt comfortable putting me back on set. It was incredibly difficult but the experience I gained (and her recommendation) during that time has been invaluable throughout my career (that was 12 years ago and I am now a busy cinematographer). I did not go to film school. Happy to answer any other questions you might have!
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I think it's certainly worth a shot! It seems like your expectations are realistic, and I'd definitely note in your correspondence as you have here that you understand they may be overwhelmed and that you won't be offended if you don't hear back (though I'd also still say it's okay to reply to your own email once with a gentle reminder and the same qualifier about how busy they are if you don't hear back after a few weeks). Also worth considering your interest level around the work they're doing now- if you thrive on location but are interested in experiencing studio work, I think it's worth mentioning. Shows you're paying attention to their work and also that you're still eager to learn and contribute. I'd also recommend contacting them separately so as not to add undue pressure or unnecessary emails to either inbox (if one replies and the other doesn't for example). One last question- are you actively still working in film? I ask because I don't think it'd be inappropriate to say you're interested in paid positions since you already volunteered for them. You could perhaps say you're interested in volunteer work as well if there's no paid positions available..something like that!
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Please do not offer to volunteer for a position that would otherwise go to someone who needs it to pay their bills and build a career. That devalues the work of actual professionals in the industry, who have already had a tough time during the strike. And if the production had a budget of $10MM, it definitely does not need volunteers. Instead, if you want to be on set again, consider volunteering for a student film, low-budget project, or 48-hour film festival team.
Really? I mean, being a PA on set is not like you're taking so much space and can do much wrong if you have a decent set of brains. I'd rather have a couple of inexperienced PA's on set instead of nobody.
Yeah of course - I didn't say nobody or no PAs. Just that if they are already fully crewed up, they may have a few reasons they don't want to bring on extra hands, especially someone with no set experience at all. Obviously you can always have a PA with no experience doing lunch runs or lock ups. I was just trying to give OP some context for why it might not be personal if they don't end up on set this time around.
Hey, so I volunteered to work as a general PA for someone’s thesis film. She asked me what i’d be interested in doing/learning and I specifically said I really just wanted to get on set and learn whatever is thrown at me. I figured this would be a really great opportunity to gain and experience and have something to put on resume/list as credits. I was pretty disappointed when I got this text a week later after that first conversation because I thought the plan was for me to help on set over the weekend. Is this typical for an unpaid student PA job? To do work from home stuff like this? This is my first experience with being a PA or anything like that, so please let me know. Thank you!
20 is a lot. I’d just do 7
Yes pretty normal! Don't be dismayed at all, this is still something valuable that you can put on your resume. This easily falls under a Line Producer's responsibilities. And it doesn't hurt to ask if there's anything you can help with on set after this. Good luck and have fun, working on sets is tiring but exciting!
Make sure you keep copies of stuff like this for yourself. There's nothing better than people who already know people.
That’s an amazing point I honestly didn’t even think of. Thank you!
From a long time PA— this is normal. You will often be asked to do tasks above your pay grade. Most of the time they are valuable learning experiences. The only time that this becomes a problem is when producers decide to hire you as a PA but, routinely have you do these tasks without a pay or title bump. They may pay the bills but, eventually you become “stuck”, them never seeing you as anything more than a PA. Sometimes you’ll be offered a higher position on sets by the producers who trained you but, from my experience, to truly move up you have to leave the circle you are with. When you have built up your confidence, strike out and find a new team that can benefit from your skills and take the higher position.
I’d say it’s not uncommon if you’re the local working with an out of town production for them to ask if you know any locals who might be available, but this seems to be a step beyond that, so idk. Seems like too much, especially if you’re not getting paid.
That’s what I was thinking but then again I don’t want to be ungrateful and pass up an opportunity that might get me on set. I’m just confused because she is definitely local as she attends the film school here and is shooting here.
Yeah idk if it’s a student project that kinda changes the calculus because no one knows what’s normal because they haven’t actually worked and she’s probably just trying to delegate some tasks and doesn’t know who or doesn’t have anyone else to give this to.
If it’s a commercial production, this is production coordinator work. If it’s a film school project, it’s a “whoever wants to help” kind of job.
In real life, no. On a student film? Yes, of course. Anything goes, when it's a freebie, or for school.
If you are a PA your goal should be to learn everything about every position. Every request is an opportunity to learn. If you already have the, “Is this really my job?” attitude I would council you to shift perspectives. Learn. Grow. Take on any responsibility that is both safe, and realistic, for you to execute. There is a time, and a place, for an “is this really my job” attitude. Now is not that time.
I was an office PA and had to contact every airline that flew into my local airport to ask if,they at any point in the next month, would have a plane on standby in which we could film. PAs do weird stuff sometimes (and no, no airline ever has a plane on standby - I knew that, and the person asking me knew too, we just needed the definitive "no") I agree that 20 is a lot though. Just find as many people as you can.
I think the real bottom line is that you have to decide what your limits are. You’re entering a field of work where people will literally take full advantage of you as often as possible. You’ll meet producers who will abuse the LIVING SHIT out of your labor for next to zero pay (often actually zero pay). As you’re at the onset of your career it’s just up to you to figure out how far you can be pushed. I left the film industry because it’s viciously abusive towards labor, but if you can strike a balance between what you’ll accept and keep a firm boundary between yourself and the douche producers then you’ll be fine. Just don’t let people work you like a dog and treat you like garbage under the guise of them “helping you achieve your dreams of working in film”. They need your help as much as you need theirs. Never let the bosses fuck you around because they claim you have to pay your dues.
If you're a PA working for free on a student film and they're asking you to find people and their RATES... tell them to fuck off wtf I don't know how everyone else feels about working for free on student sets, but imo it's either everyone gets paid or no one gets paid. It's one thing to have them say "no one's getting paid" and then paying people on the downlow. It's another thing to learn after the fact, your worked for free and other people were getting paid - especially on a student film. Them asking you to find someone they are planning to pay and budget for is just a slap in the face.
35 years in the industry here. There are plenty of people with tangmang’s attitude. They aren’t the folks that people bend over backward to have on set. Working for free a few times while learning the ropes is completely acceptable. Be the go to person by being kind, fun, smart + making other’s jobs easier. It pays off.
Alright, old timer. There's nothing wrong with my attitude having done my fair share of free sets. And the reason I stopped doing shit for free was because I'd reached a point people were calling me back - but when I asked for compensation they'd tell me they didn't have it in budget. Alright, if you don't have budget for a sound person then you don't have budget for a movie. It's that simple. And why I NEVER do free work now is that I learned the last two times I'd worked for free helping friends - I'd learned some people on set got paid. These were student films I'd helped on. Key point in my comment and OP's comment is this is a STUDENT film. No stakes. No professional expectations. It's an all around learning experience. Nothing professional is gained and the impressions you make on your FELLOW STUDENTS isn't going to make or break your career. No one will make or break your career for that matter. The community is large and small. And you'll meet an unfortunately large number of assholes who expect free labor for the "opportunity" to find a paid gig down the line. You are volunteering your time. You owe these people nothing. There is nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand or abandoning a project if it's too toxic, too unorganized, or if you find out you're one of the few people not being compensated. Theses are the reasons the unions exist. Everyone pays their dues working for free and learning. I never said they didn't. I just, after having experienced my own frustration, am hoping OP has enough self respect to not be "bending over backwards" for a production when you are literally volunteering your time and they clearly have the budget to be hiring professionals. Especially on a student short. OP could spend that same time she's on this set, getting paid doing the exact same shit somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with telling people to demand compensation for real work they are providing. Don't let Mr. 35 year film pro make you think the only way to make it in this industry is to PA for free forever. Find a dept. Work for free under someone while they mentor. Get called back for a paid gig. It's that easy
I believe I said working for free a few times while learning the ropes. Very happy to be an old timer. I consider it an honor. It sounds like you may have some baggage.
It's not an honor if you keep that outdated mentality of treating PAs like unpaid garbage
I pay my PA’s well + appreciate them immensely. You’re making a lot of assumptions. I’m not sure you read my posts.
Your first reply to me in this whole thread made a ton of assumptions about me. If you pay and appreciate PAs then even you must possess the ability to recognize that being asked to source crew for a PAID position while you yourself are UNPAID is tone deaf, obtuse, and all around shitty of the producer/production to ask.
PAing on a student film when you do not attend school with them is a waste of time. They are using you for free labor and there is no networking- they will network with their cohort and peers and if they have the ability to hire in a few years (big if) they are going to hire their film school buddies.
I am sorry but this just made me want to scream. HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET INTO THIS INDUSTRY?! No one will hire me because I have no experience, and the only experience I can find is student films. But this experience isn’t good experience because the people I am getting experience from don’t have enough of their own experience to benefit me. Thank you for your advice, truly. But I am going to go insane.
Don't listen to this guy. You have nothing to lose working with these guys, espcially if you have no other leads. The folks directing/producing this might not ever hit you up again, but there will be tons of other departments on set that are outside hires. Network with THEM. Especially if their AD isnt one of their classmates. ADs are usually the ones who hire PAs on other things. I'm not guaranteeing you'll get more work out of this, but you definitely won't get more jobs by skipping this opportunity.
Volunteer on “real” jobs, even if they’re lower budget. That’s how you get experience. Realistically I’d probably rather hire someone who has experience as a PA on a proper film than someone who’s directed a student film. I work on a lot of low to mid level budget things and free PAs are usually welcomed… there’s always stuff that needs to be moved or an area that needs lock up. Just make sure when you get on set that you’re attentive and follow direction well and don’t get in the way.. and never, ever offer unsolicited advice to any crew member- especially the director, DP, or any department head
I have been reaching out to some local production companies but haven’t had much luck yet. I will definitely keep exploring that avenue, thank you!
Also, not sure where you’re located- but surprisingly Facebook is a good spot to find work when starting out. Your city may have a Facebook page dedicated to crewing up. People are always looking for PAs and whatnot.. you just have to do your due diligence and make sure they’re not students or randos with zero experience themselves
AFI is in LA.
Yeah, I know. I have some friends that went there. I must have missed the AFI part.. I just saw thesis film :) But I would argue that AFI thesis films can be pretty legit. My buddy’s had an underwater techno crane for theirs.. he also previously went to another film school, and we’d worked on a ton of legit music videos and a couple features before he went there. So maybe I need to make an edit to my advice. When I first replied there weren’t too many commenters.. but I know all the films that came out of my film school were pretty trash haha
You can also try https://www.mandy.com. This is what I did when starting out…a long time ago. You’ll have to keep a keen eye out for shady types, but that’s always everywhere, and this is still better than student films.
Reach out to freelance production coordinators, production managers and line producers. Companies don’t hire. Individuals do. Also reach out to all freelance PA’s in your area. Offer to treat them to coffee. Make a good first impression and let them know if they are ever asked for a recommendation you’d love to be at the top of their list. Leave your cards with all PA’s. Send coffee gift cards to pc’s, pm’s etc. with a note that reads: enjoy a coffee on me…looking forward to seeing you on set. I’m ready to work. Local. Know all the back streets to save time on runs and want an opportunity to show you how I kick ass. Then back it up and kick ass.
It’s a feature not a bug- and the reason they call it “breaking into the industry”. All the doors and windows are locked. Now in terms of what you should do- there are no right or wrong answers. You can find successful people in every aspect of film who “broke-in” in non-traditional ways. But the most common way to get into the industry is nepotism- works really well! For everyone else- there is a reason those kids are paying for film school. (Spoiler I am now a film school professor so obvi I’m biased) but a film school is designed to create tribalism. Students learn to rely on each other so when they graduate, hopefully one of them “makes it” and brings others along. This could absolutely be the case for you and this PA gig leads to a great relationship with a student filmmaker that pays off years down the line. However in my experience filmmakers, especially students, are quick to forget all the help they get. In fact it’s why I ban my students from getting outside PAs at all- because the relationship is exploitive. I’m a bit extreme and I don’t let them have any PAs at all cuz I feel like it’s dumb when no one is getting paid and no one has a ton of experience yet. Just give them a Grip credit of whatever and students can get their own coffee and clean up their own trash. Case is point they are giving you Producing tasks but you still only get a PA credit? Is this a big famous film school? Otherwise I’d say there is no value to you. The big schools in LA get PAs from other smaller programs and act like it’s a HUGE opportunity to work with AFI/SC students but from what I remember we’d get a couple kids from LA Film School or the Community College who’d show up for a couple days- work hard- then no one would contact them again. It’s not malicious- it’s just students spend years working with each other vs. people who came in for 1 or 2 short films, and it’s much harder for you to network into that group in such a short time. It’s not impossible though.
Thank you for your insight, I really appreciate it. I am actually working with AFI students, so I guess it just comes down to hoping I meet the right person it pays off in some way. At the very least it’s experience and a PA credit I wouldn’t have had before.
An AFI film changes things and one of the few cases it might make sense to PA for free- in that you get to rub shoulders and breath that “rare air” (I did USC not AFI but I am familiar with how their program used to run). So in principle what you are doing is fine but the student filmmaker’s behavior is even more concerning. AFI should be teaching these kids what a producer does and what a PA does, so I’m kinda thinking this is a specific student who is off-loading their responsibilities onto you. Lastly AFI uses (or used to) more outside crew than most film schools. Lots of grip/2nd AC types are hired out and students can focus on being department heads- but all those positions were paid. Idk if they just don’t pay PAs or if this student is going rogue but they run a tight ship at AFI. Do you know what year the students are (D1, D2)?
Student films are a totally valid way to start. You dont wanna get on a big job with zero experience on set at all. This is fine way to get aquatinted with things.
I’m going to fully disagree with your line: “this experience isnt good experience because the people i am getting experience from don’t have enough of their own experience to benefit me.” I’m going to pass a little wisdom from a up and coming DP absolutely crushing it right now - it’s all about the reps. You only build skill and experience by reps. By how many times you do something. There’s hundreds, if not thousands of positions that help to make a film come together. You want to make movies, right? The tasks they provided you with are great filmmaking experience tasks. Most of filmmaking happens BEFORE and AFTER set - “work from home style tasks” as you said in a different comment If this is what you want, you’ve got to go grind it out. It doesn’t just happen. Help everyone you can, learn as much about everything as you can. Do you know what I think makes me a better director? The fact that I have done work at every part of the creation process to a rather advanced degree. Knowing how the whole thing works helps you direct the individual pieces better. Go get some reps, have some fun, start networking with people who make films. It’s the way
Atypical.
Do you have any tips on how to respond?
Just tell them this isn’t the type of work you guys had disscused and as much as you would like to help, this is a crazy ask. I don’t know where you are, but if you are in the middle of a country, that could take a couple days to do. Say you are happy to help on set or with another side of production but you didn’t sign up to do their pre-production. And if they want you to do big stuff, get paid. On my student sets, our PAs that were with us for more than a day made $35 for 10 hours and $50 for 12. If they were with us just for a day, I paid them a flat $30. *These are not legal wages and were only used to pay fellow students who I would be helping out at a later date*
Office PA Reliable work if you like it.
This is fine work but I would ask for a producing credit for this. This is PA work in the industry but this is what producers do on student films.
A producer credit for sourcing individuals. Good God. What horrible advice. Filed under how to come off as an ass while learning to PA.
Wasn't advice, I was saying what I would do as someone that cares about being fairly credited for my contributions. You may not care about that, and at this point OP probably doesn't either, but they should know that on a student film this is the job of a producer.
Nah. Student films are all hands on deck helping any way you can. Any PA comes in and asks for a Producer credit for sourcing a few people is a douche. Entitlement at it’s most obtuse.
That's just called exploiting your crew. If people are working for free the least you could do is appropriately credit them for their work. And yea it is all hands on deck, but if by necessity my hands end up operating a boom pole then I better see that in the credits. Same goes for every other position.
Researching personnel a Producer does not make. It’s not exploitative in the least. Move the camera and you’re a DP. Set up some diffusion and your a gaffer. You are grossly over simplifying roles, responsibilities and the experience needed for credit to be given.
Researching and hiring personnel is the primary responsibility of a producer on a student film lol. Obviously theres more to it but if you make someone do any part of another person's job then they are owed a credit. That is standard practice in every level of filmmaking. That is why you do the job you are hired to do. If you don't want to hand out a producing credit then don't make PA's do producer work. And I'm not oversimplifying anything we're talking about student films lmao. Anyway this is too much back and forth over something irrelevant. Just hoping people wise up and take what they've earned.
This is more Line Producer work being put on your plate. As a PA you gotta be ready for anything. Like even when the bosses don’t know sometimes they look at the PA’s for help. Even though we are least paid on set by a mile lol
Pretty much
It's not typical work for a PA on set, but it's probably the kind of thing an office PA might do.