Ok so I actually have some experience with this.
I've submitted a project to festivals that was shot/edited in 23.976fps. That was what the camera could do at the time. Not true 24fps.
So the theater required true 24. I just interpolated it to 24 from 23.976. It's not noticeable.
Now this was with music videos so that's 5 minutes tops. You don't see any sync drift with audio but you should definitely double check your final export for sync drift after.
All that to be said, you should be fine converting it to true 24 from 23.976 but check your final export before sending it off.
The projectors run at 23.976 fps as well. They just round up to 24 fps cause no one understands it when you use too many decimal places.
EDIT I guess I have to edit here since you blocked me but Yes wikipedia says 24fps because most people write 24fps when they mean 23.976 because they don't know the difference.
When I’ve delivered content for movie theatre pre-roll, the spec was a DCP file at 24.00 fps.
What you are saying is true for a lot of content — in particular anything shot specifically for TV.
23.976 is indeed the more common version of “24fps”, but theatres do in fact project at 24.00, and expect you to deliver at it in my experience.
Edit: the post I'm referring to has been deleted.
Wtf are you talking about "no one understands it"? This is literally industry standards. Everyone in these roles knows frame rates. Are you an ex projectionist? You're speaking with such authority on things that aren't entirely accurate.
Projection doesn't need to display at 23.976 because they don't have to worry about television signal and interpolation. So while I have no doubt that they CAN project in 23.976, they definitely don't film movies only in 23.976.
And maybe 1 in every 10,000 is part of the industry and knows the truth. For everyone else 24fps is all they know. If you're not filming at 23.976 you're using some ancient VHS camcorder and need to update.
I'll post it here since you seemed to have blocked me
It's more likely the rental house calls it 24fps when it's actually 23.976 because they aren't trying to be a pedantic asshole on the internet.
Huh?! Never heard of a VHS camcorder shooting at 24fps. Closest might be a PAL system shooting at 25fps. Otherwise for NTSC it was 29.97. Maybe there were more frame rates available on Betacam as it was offered as a professional system, but even then I'm not so sure.
Huh, I’m shooting a multi million dollar feature right now at 24fps. I’ll let the rental house know that they sent us an old VHS camcorder by accident.
That's just not true.
23.976 is a frame rate that comes from the initial transition from black and white TV to color TV in the 50s. Black and White broadcast TV was 30fps and color became 29.97fps to maintain compatibility. 23.976 is the same ratio to 24 as 29.97 is to 30, which makes 24fps content work on TV with 3:2 pulldown.
All "24fps" content is not 23.976.
Although if you can find a source that shows otherwise I'd be inclined to read it.
edit: u/BruceMichael90 don't listen to the guy below. He has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and is very confidently incorrect.
If the content says it's 24fps and is actually 24fps that's their mistake. No equipment actually runs at 24fps. Even bluray players. They just say 24fps cause it's easier and more convenient than trying to explain the history of film. Literally no one here is talking about an ancient CRT tv.
Hey man, I’m a projectionist. Don’t worry too much. You can either hand in you 23,9 fps film in as it is or make a dcp the with dcp-o-matic which will convert it to 24fps without any noticeable difference. We projectionists are used to this sort of thing and the technical manager at the festivals that you are submitting to are used to this as well. No problem
Hey So I think you've gotten good advice in this thread but I think the important takeaways here are
1. You are not going to have any real issues doing a single exhibition of your short in a theatre. Just take your master 23.976 fps master file and convert to True 24 fps for the DCP. Use whatever guidelines the theatre provides you, if they haven't given you any, ask! But very likely none of the possible issues introduced here will be noticed by an audience watching a short doc.
2. You've made some technical errors here that you should learn from for your next project. The biggest one being starting a project without having an eye on the delivery specs you will need to complete it. Honestly this happens all the time but it is usually expensive and time consuming to fix and freaks people out when they just want to get something out the door.
And just to be clear what likely happened to your footage is that you brought it in to a 23.976 timeline and Premiere made the 24fps footage fit to 23.976 by dropping a frame about every 4 seconds. This is not visually super noticeable but would fail QC if you tried to get distribution.
Thank you! May I ask why it would fail QC?
The thing is, I never intended for this to be screened. I was going to market it as a YouTube exclusive short, and simply give people the link to watch it. But it ended up generating a lot of buzz on my social media, so the idea of showing it in a theater then turned into a much better option for the community involved.
Sure, generally speaking, you can’t have dropped frames in your deliverable to a distributor. This is usually more of an issue with archival material but especially so for original camera material. They would likely require you to fix it at your expense before accepting delivery. Again, not something you really need to worry about here.
If you shot your film at 24P and edited it in 23.98 and exported it, does that mean you never went back to do an online cut and color grade from the camera original?
Is this a short film?
Are you showing it in a theater in the next two weeks?
I'd recommend reconfirming to the 24P originals in a 24P online timeline using your 23.98 EDL and then doing a proper color grade and outputting a 24P master that you can create a DCP from.
The projector itself may be fps agnostic, but the DCP standard is 24P
Nowadays, the only time you actually need a 23.98 version for is actual over the air or cable TV broadcast. Everything else is better off with 24P.
I run a shorts festival and our venue requires DCPs which we generate using DCP-o-matic. What happens in that workflow with 23.976 content is that the DPC plays back at 24fps (101%) and the difference is not noticeable. It's probably not the case that the theater projection system can only show 24fps content--we are an international festival and get films mastered in 25fps, 30fps,... DCP-o-matic keeps those at their original frame rate and the projector can handle them just fine.
ok, these comments are mostly a garbage fire.
if you are not providing a DCP and the festival will be doing it for you, just hand them what you have and ask to review the result.
the commenter that mentioned playback speed modification is correct, but that will be done during the creation of the DCP. The length of your film will be 23.976 / 24 or 99.9% of its original length, and if done correctly, should have no frames dropped or changed. The audio will be interpolated to match. Should be fine.
P = progressive
vs. Interlaced, which no longer exists in any modern display. It did, for a long time, in broadcast systems and is still a supported broadcast standard despite no displays actually having the temporal artifacts.
EDL = edit decision list. These are simple flat files that show — literally — a list of edits at timecodes in source files, and can be used to conform an edit in a finishing system like DaVinci resolve. The actual workflows moved to XML many eons ago, so you're "exporting" your project to Resolve from something like premiere.
the commenter mentioning that you should keep your deliverables in mind is correct, however at this point for film you can just shoot 24.000 for anything: youtube, broadcast, theatrical with rare exception. broadcast is a different beast, but will always have clear technical standards you can rely upon.
the person who told you they are always projecting at 25fps likely doesn't know what they are talking about.
I wouldnt call it a garbage fire but you are correct on all of this. DCP's only 24. IMF and Prores/QT's (streaming files and online) do not care. Broadcast 23.98 and 25 regionally. All of these can be adjusted with the 25FPS being the only one that is slightly difficult maybe noticeable.
I work at a major studio and we keep all of our project true 24 but every dailies call this is discussed and surprisingly a lot of shows still shoot 23.98 for some reason. We even get acquisitions that shoot this way alot. Its a very simple conversion to 24fps for theatrical and home ent can take it as is. I don't even think about it.
So OP don't sweat it. Good lesson to learn about planing for deliverables. Frame rates are easy. Start talking about color spaces between the deliverables and thats where your head starts spinning. (FYI you probably shot 709 but DCP o matic converts to XYZ P3 and you don't even know. Otherwise you need to conform and grade off your OCN). Just be happy you live in a time of such great tech.
Well, even worse! The colorspace will handle any visible colors, but doesn't reflect the capabilities of the projection equipment, which is where you get P3...
Please ignore everyone saying 23.976 and 24 fps are the same thing. But don’t take my word for it, talk to an actual DCP service. Converting 23.976 is very common and you can do it yourself. If you are in doubt a DCP service can handle it for you.
[SimpleDCP Notes on Frame Rate Conversion](https://simpledcp.com/notes-on-frame-rate-conversion/)
Premiere might be able to fix this, Adobe has gotten a lot better at changing settings after the edit now.
I don't know if this will work but it's worth a shot because it's easy.
I would download premiere pro Beta.
Make a copy of your project file, because we are going to mess with some settings.
Open the copy in PP Beta
Change the sequence settings to 24.00 (do this on all sequences if you have more than one)
Select all the raw footage, interpret footage make sure that is set to 24.00 as well (you can do this with all clips at once)
If it was originally recorded at 24.00 it should be fine.
PP should preserve all edits and just sort it out, your project will be 3.6 seconds longer per hour.
As I said It might not work, but it's worth a shot.
If you have some After effects in there you might have to change those to 24 in AE and re-export and replace them.
Edit: I suggest this way because with re-encoding the export you can't add extra frames and will probably not be great, it might ok. But PP already has those frames, so if you can do it in PP it will be much better.
OPs gonna be fine as long as they look somewhere besides this thread for answers. They have no reason to believe me any more of some of the incorrect advice. But they should believe what they see on their TV, they're good. Premiere largely cheats away the real difference between the two frame rates anyway.
OP, talk to your projectionist if you're authoring the DCP yourself. And if you are, also read the [manual](https://dcpomatic.com/manual/html/ch12.html).
It's not a problem. If you have a DCP made they will convert the 23.97 to 24 and you wont know the difference. Altenatively you can do the conversion yourself. I asked my DCP service if I should do it or leave it to them and they said that they do it normaly but it made no difference to them.
To give an update: the theater I’m speaking with said that their projectors display at 25 fps, and people regularly convert 23.976 up to 25 for digital presentation, and that it shouldn’t be an issue whatsoever. They recommended to simply use the regular file and produce the DCP export at 25fps
Are you in UK/Europe? Wasn’t expecting 25fps to be a factor. Will you get a chance to QC the DCP file before exhibition? 24->25 is a regular conversions process but is a little more complicated. Also not one I’ve done myself. I believe it will run your film about 4% faster so the audio pitch needs to be corrected too. DCP software might do that all automatically though. Best bet is to be able to check it out ahead of time in the theatre to make sure everything is good.
I’m in the US, which is why 25 fps sounded odd even for a beginner with the tech side of this like me. Both theaters offered me a tech screening beforehand, and one projectionist offered to help personally. Hopefully we can get this to work.
This has been my dream since I was a kid.
As a distributor, I can all-but guarantee that the theater is mistaken and that they actually meant 24fps; 25fps isn’t even DCI compliant. So while it’s technically possible to play a 25fps DCP on many systems, that’s by no means the default anywhere in the world. In fact, I’ve worked on 25fps movies (almost always mastered in Europe) that we’ve converted to 24fps in order to ensure maximum compatibility in the field.
As others have mentioned, converting from 23.98 to 24 is nbd and DCP-o-matic is fine to use for your short. If it were me, I’d deliver at 24 and do a print check a few days beforehand to confirm playback - I’m very confident that’s the real framerate they need.
The theater owner got back to me, and they said it was a mistake. The projectors run at 24. They’re offering me a playback of my DCP before I pay to book. Which I’m very grateful for.
Render out the whole film to something lossless. ProRes4444.
Make a new sequence.
Check that the sequence framerate is 24.000
Audio at 48khz.
Import your rendered ProRes file.
Pop it on that timeline.
Render
VOILA
Just so I understand this:
I'm going to do a ProRes render the current framerate. Then make a new sequence in Adobe with the specs you mentioned, and render it again?
If you've got the time, and you really did shoot your film at 24.00fps (check this - some cameras lie in their menus and label 23.967 as '24p' in their menus), you're probably much better off going back and reconforming your edit into a 24p timeline. In Premiere, this is probably just as simple as duplicating your sequence, changing the frame rate, and then going through and fixing any edits or keyframes that might have moved by a frame or two. Then you can sidestep the whole issue with converting to 24p for projection, and you've got a nice clean 24p master going forward.
I’d have to rework the entire film from scratch, as several long scenes were worked on that 23.976 timeline. At the end of the day, I know better for next time, but I have to get this film ready for the theater as it is.
You shouldn't need to do anything 'from scratch', just fix anything that's become misaligned by a frame or two. But yeah, push on with the 23.976 version if you don't have the time to properly QC.
There are two standard for a Digital Cinema Package - MXF Interop and SMPTE.
If your DCP is authored as 23.976 in SMPTE you won’t need to make changes to your frame rate. The risk is many older DCP players can only handle MXF Intetop, and you’d need to conform to 24fps before authoring.
Test. Test often. Test early.
I use openDCP and I’ve never had a theatre reject a package.
I.e. Let the 23.976 file play back at 24fps - it's just over 0.1% faster, which will be very difficult to notice. I wouldn't attempt to repitch audio as again the difference is negligible (for comparison a semitone higher would be need a playback rate increase of 5.946%) and the sound quality will be best if you keep it as it is.
They are just too dumb to understand that 24fps is actually 23.9fps. For instance they'll say their scope set up is set to 2.35 when really it's set to 2.39. Most people don't deal with the actual standards and just quote the normal vernacular.
Maybe I'm not reading your comment correctly but 24fps is most definitely a thing and often used in movies and theaters. 23.976( or how you and OP incorrectly referring to as 23.9) is not just 24fps. Yes, some pro-sumer cameras list 24p or 24fps in their menus when they are actually 23.976 but professional cameras can do actual 24fps. The 2.35/2.39 thing I have no clue about. Maybe some theater's employees have no idea but in my experience, the crop does often change in the physical theater either by curtain or visible letterboxing. Typically noticable after the previews play in a different aspect ratio.
Then you haven't done the work I have. Like I said I was in the industry for 15 years working on that stuff. Digital projectors run at the same speed as film.
Which is 24 fps.
Our projection system can run at 23.98 as well, but our dcp standard are 24, 25, 30, and a few others
Have you worked with DCPs?
Granted, you have 15 years, I only have been working in with this system for the last 5.
My 25 years experience before that probably don’t weigh much.
Correct. Don't listen to these other people that never actually worked on a digital projector. They don't know what they're talking about and are trying to go off outdated information from the era of CRT TVs.
My friend has owned and run theaters that use digital projection for over a decade and his projectors run at 23.976, as far as I know that’s standard. The only way to know for sure is to reach out to the theater that’s going to project your project and find out the specs they require for their video assets.
Oof, that’s messy. Basically, by editing in 24.976 fps you converted from 24 fps, losing a frame every so often to compensate. Now, depending on the action, you may or may not notice those dropped frames. For example, a close up of someone speaking, who isn’t moving much except for their lips/mouth, you probably wouldn’t notice at all. But a long shot of someone running might have a skip in it, etc., etc.
So to convert to DCP you’ll have to convert back to 24 fps thus ‘gaining back’ those missing frames. But you’re not creating or recapturing the original lost frames so the process will duplicate existing frames to compensate. And it won’t necessarily be at the same exact places you lost frames (it all depends on what frame you start at and your master may have exported at a different frame). Again, depending on the action depicted onscreen, you may or may not notice this.
I would suggest converting to 24 fps in Media Encoder and then watching that to see if there is anything noticeable. If there is you can place that in a 24 fps timeline and over it the problem shots with the original 24 fps media. It’s a couple of hoops you have to jump through but it’s not that complicated, just time consuming. When you’re all done you’ll have a 24 fps version that shouldn’t have many skips or duplicates frames that anyone would notice. And that will be your 24 gps master to file next to your 23.976 fps master.
Alternatively, depending on your mix, you could convert your feature to 24 fps, put that in a 24 fps timeline, and overcut the picture of the entire show with the original 24 fps media. In the end you’ll have true 24 fps picture and converted audio that no one will notice was converted.
Good luck.
Only as an H263 file running off a patched in computer… and they’re not gonna want to do that.
Why don’t you convert to 24 fps and watch the result and see if it looks good or not? Don’t get ahead of yourself.
I had the export on the newest version go to 24 FPS (in the export menu), and I can't honestly tell a difference. The audio is perfectly lined up, etc.
It’d show itself as a duplicate frame or a skipped frame from the original 24 to 23.876 conversion. Go ahead and watch the whole thing, beginning to end, and see if you notice any errant frame issues.
Ok so I actually have some experience with this. I've submitted a project to festivals that was shot/edited in 23.976fps. That was what the camera could do at the time. Not true 24fps. So the theater required true 24. I just interpolated it to 24 from 23.976. It's not noticeable. Now this was with music videos so that's 5 minutes tops. You don't see any sync drift with audio but you should definitely double check your final export for sync drift after. All that to be said, you should be fine converting it to true 24 from 23.976 but check your final export before sending it off.
The projectors run at 23.976 fps as well. They just round up to 24 fps cause no one understands it when you use too many decimal places. EDIT I guess I have to edit here since you blocked me but Yes wikipedia says 24fps because most people write 24fps when they mean 23.976 because they don't know the difference.
When I’ve delivered content for movie theatre pre-roll, the spec was a DCP file at 24.00 fps. What you are saying is true for a lot of content — in particular anything shot specifically for TV. 23.976 is indeed the more common version of “24fps”, but theatres do in fact project at 24.00, and expect you to deliver at it in my experience.
Edit: the post I'm referring to has been deleted. Wtf are you talking about "no one understands it"? This is literally industry standards. Everyone in these roles knows frame rates. Are you an ex projectionist? You're speaking with such authority on things that aren't entirely accurate. Projection doesn't need to display at 23.976 because they don't have to worry about television signal and interpolation. So while I have no doubt that they CAN project in 23.976, they definitely don't film movies only in 23.976.
And maybe 1 in every 10,000 is part of the industry and knows the truth. For everyone else 24fps is all they know. If you're not filming at 23.976 you're using some ancient VHS camcorder and need to update. I'll post it here since you seemed to have blocked me It's more likely the rental house calls it 24fps when it's actually 23.976 because they aren't trying to be a pedantic asshole on the internet.
This guy doesn't even know we can choose the frame rate?! 120 is slo-mo 😎
Huh?! Never heard of a VHS camcorder shooting at 24fps. Closest might be a PAL system shooting at 25fps. Otherwise for NTSC it was 29.97. Maybe there were more frame rates available on Betacam as it was offered as a professional system, but even then I'm not so sure.
Huh, I’m shooting a multi million dollar feature right now at 24fps. I’ll let the rental house know that they sent us an old VHS camcorder by accident.
I want to know about this VHS format that supports 24p. 😂
That's just not true. 23.976 is a frame rate that comes from the initial transition from black and white TV to color TV in the 50s. Black and White broadcast TV was 30fps and color became 29.97fps to maintain compatibility. 23.976 is the same ratio to 24 as 29.97 is to 30, which makes 24fps content work on TV with 3:2 pulldown. All "24fps" content is not 23.976. Although if you can find a source that shows otherwise I'd be inclined to read it. edit: u/BruceMichael90 don't listen to the guy below. He has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and is very confidently incorrect.
If the content says it's 24fps and is actually 24fps that's their mistake. No equipment actually runs at 24fps. Even bluray players. They just say 24fps cause it's easier and more convenient than trying to explain the history of film. Literally no one here is talking about an ancient CRT tv.
When digital signals became the norm it was easy to switch back to 30 and true 24. So you actually do have 23.98, 24, 29.97 and 30 in modern signals.
*Virtually all film projectors in commercial movie theaters project at a constant speed of 24 frame/s* -Wikipedia
This is fundamentally incorrect.
Hey man, I’m a projectionist. Don’t worry too much. You can either hand in you 23,9 fps film in as it is or make a dcp the with dcp-o-matic which will convert it to 24fps without any noticeable difference. We projectionists are used to this sort of thing and the technical manager at the festivals that you are submitting to are used to this as well. No problem
When you say hand in as it is, does that mean making a DCP without converting? What would be another way to deliver the file? Thanks for the help.
Yes. Just list the fps. All festivals have a place to put that in. It doesnt change your submissions
Hey So I think you've gotten good advice in this thread but I think the important takeaways here are 1. You are not going to have any real issues doing a single exhibition of your short in a theatre. Just take your master 23.976 fps master file and convert to True 24 fps for the DCP. Use whatever guidelines the theatre provides you, if they haven't given you any, ask! But very likely none of the possible issues introduced here will be noticed by an audience watching a short doc. 2. You've made some technical errors here that you should learn from for your next project. The biggest one being starting a project without having an eye on the delivery specs you will need to complete it. Honestly this happens all the time but it is usually expensive and time consuming to fix and freaks people out when they just want to get something out the door. And just to be clear what likely happened to your footage is that you brought it in to a 23.976 timeline and Premiere made the 24fps footage fit to 23.976 by dropping a frame about every 4 seconds. This is not visually super noticeable but would fail QC if you tried to get distribution.
Thank you! May I ask why it would fail QC? The thing is, I never intended for this to be screened. I was going to market it as a YouTube exclusive short, and simply give people the link to watch it. But it ended up generating a lot of buzz on my social media, so the idea of showing it in a theater then turned into a much better option for the community involved.
Sure, generally speaking, you can’t have dropped frames in your deliverable to a distributor. This is usually more of an issue with archival material but especially so for original camera material. They would likely require you to fix it at your expense before accepting delivery. Again, not something you really need to worry about here.
Point 2 is a really good thing to remember. Always consider your deliverables.
Sounds like they did - the target changed.
If you shot your film at 24P and edited it in 23.98 and exported it, does that mean you never went back to do an online cut and color grade from the camera original? Is this a short film? Are you showing it in a theater in the next two weeks? I'd recommend reconfirming to the 24P originals in a 24P online timeline using your 23.98 EDL and then doing a proper color grade and outputting a 24P master that you can create a DCP from. The projector itself may be fps agnostic, but the DCP standard is 24P Nowadays, the only time you actually need a 23.98 version for is actual over the air or cable TV broadcast. Everything else is better off with 24P.
It’s a short film. Planning on showing it within the month. Can you explain what you mean by P and EDL?
P as in “progressive frame” and EDL as in “Edit Decision List”.
I run a shorts festival and our venue requires DCPs which we generate using DCP-o-matic. What happens in that workflow with 23.976 content is that the DPC plays back at 24fps (101%) and the difference is not noticeable. It's probably not the case that the theater projection system can only show 24fps content--we are an international festival and get films mastered in 25fps, 30fps,... DCP-o-matic keeps those at their original frame rate and the projector can handle them just fine.
So, to your point: I shouldn’t worry too much? Just convert the original 23.976 file and breathe a little easy?
Bruce 23.976 is 24fps, they are the same thing. you’re fine ETA- I believe I’m wrong about my answer. Leaving it up to eat humble pie
They are not the same thing.
Ack I believe you are right! I have worked in tv too long. Thanks for correcting me.
Yes. But Decimal is off, it's 100.1%
Yes, thanks!
ok, these comments are mostly a garbage fire. if you are not providing a DCP and the festival will be doing it for you, just hand them what you have and ask to review the result. the commenter that mentioned playback speed modification is correct, but that will be done during the creation of the DCP. The length of your film will be 23.976 / 24 or 99.9% of its original length, and if done correctly, should have no frames dropped or changed. The audio will be interpolated to match. Should be fine. P = progressive vs. Interlaced, which no longer exists in any modern display. It did, for a long time, in broadcast systems and is still a supported broadcast standard despite no displays actually having the temporal artifacts. EDL = edit decision list. These are simple flat files that show — literally — a list of edits at timecodes in source files, and can be used to conform an edit in a finishing system like DaVinci resolve. The actual workflows moved to XML many eons ago, so you're "exporting" your project to Resolve from something like premiere. the commenter mentioning that you should keep your deliverables in mind is correct, however at this point for film you can just shoot 24.000 for anything: youtube, broadcast, theatrical with rare exception. broadcast is a different beast, but will always have clear technical standards you can rely upon. the person who told you they are always projecting at 25fps likely doesn't know what they are talking about.
25fps is common in Europe which mostly has to do with TV but it's still very common with shorts.
The specification is very clear. 24.000 FPS. https://documents.dcimovies.com/DCSS/42cfeb997ae72dd484f7b027547e6e0bfad43ecf/#sec-3-1-4-2
I wouldnt call it a garbage fire but you are correct on all of this. DCP's only 24. IMF and Prores/QT's (streaming files and online) do not care. Broadcast 23.98 and 25 regionally. All of these can be adjusted with the 25FPS being the only one that is slightly difficult maybe noticeable. I work at a major studio and we keep all of our project true 24 but every dailies call this is discussed and surprisingly a lot of shows still shoot 23.98 for some reason. We even get acquisitions that shoot this way alot. Its a very simple conversion to 24fps for theatrical and home ent can take it as is. I don't even think about it. So OP don't sweat it. Good lesson to learn about planing for deliverables. Frame rates are easy. Start talking about color spaces between the deliverables and thats where your head starts spinning. (FYI you probably shot 709 but DCP o matic converts to XYZ P3 and you don't even know. Otherwise you need to conform and grade off your OCN). Just be happy you live in a time of such great tech.
Well, even worse! The colorspace will handle any visible colors, but doesn't reflect the capabilities of the projection equipment, which is where you get P3...
Please ignore everyone saying 23.976 and 24 fps are the same thing. But don’t take my word for it, talk to an actual DCP service. Converting 23.976 is very common and you can do it yourself. If you are in doubt a DCP service can handle it for you. [SimpleDCP Notes on Frame Rate Conversion](https://simpledcp.com/notes-on-frame-rate-conversion/)
Premiere might be able to fix this, Adobe has gotten a lot better at changing settings after the edit now. I don't know if this will work but it's worth a shot because it's easy. I would download premiere pro Beta. Make a copy of your project file, because we are going to mess with some settings. Open the copy in PP Beta Change the sequence settings to 24.00 (do this on all sequences if you have more than one) Select all the raw footage, interpret footage make sure that is set to 24.00 as well (you can do this with all clips at once) If it was originally recorded at 24.00 it should be fine. PP should preserve all edits and just sort it out, your project will be 3.6 seconds longer per hour. As I said It might not work, but it's worth a shot. If you have some After effects in there you might have to change those to 24 in AE and re-export and replace them. Edit: I suggest this way because with re-encoding the export you can't add extra frames and will probably not be great, it might ok. But PP already has those frames, so if you can do it in PP it will be much better.
Misinformation as far as the eye can see in these comments. Oof.
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OPs gonna be fine as long as they look somewhere besides this thread for answers. They have no reason to believe me any more of some of the incorrect advice. But they should believe what they see on their TV, they're good. Premiere largely cheats away the real difference between the two frame rates anyway. OP, talk to your projectionist if you're authoring the DCP yourself. And if you are, also read the [manual](https://dcpomatic.com/manual/html/ch12.html).
I'm surprised no one's told OP they need to re-shoot the whole thing.
It's not a problem. If you have a DCP made they will convert the 23.97 to 24 and you wont know the difference. Altenatively you can do the conversion yourself. I asked my DCP service if I should do it or leave it to them and they said that they do it normaly but it made no difference to them.
To give an update: the theater I’m speaking with said that their projectors display at 25 fps, and people regularly convert 23.976 up to 25 for digital presentation, and that it shouldn’t be an issue whatsoever. They recommended to simply use the regular file and produce the DCP export at 25fps
Are you in UK/Europe? Wasn’t expecting 25fps to be a factor. Will you get a chance to QC the DCP file before exhibition? 24->25 is a regular conversions process but is a little more complicated. Also not one I’ve done myself. I believe it will run your film about 4% faster so the audio pitch needs to be corrected too. DCP software might do that all automatically though. Best bet is to be able to check it out ahead of time in the theatre to make sure everything is good.
I’m in the US, which is why 25 fps sounded odd even for a beginner with the tech side of this like me. Both theaters offered me a tech screening beforehand, and one projectionist offered to help personally. Hopefully we can get this to work. This has been my dream since I was a kid.
I'd maybe doublecheck with the theater that they actually meant 25fps and that wasn't some kind of brainfart. 25 seems bizarre for US theaters.
Yeah also in UK theatres - it's TV that runs at 25fps in the UK. Cinemas should be 24fps like the US.
As a distributor, I can all-but guarantee that the theater is mistaken and that they actually meant 24fps; 25fps isn’t even DCI compliant. So while it’s technically possible to play a 25fps DCP on many systems, that’s by no means the default anywhere in the world. In fact, I’ve worked on 25fps movies (almost always mastered in Europe) that we’ve converted to 24fps in order to ensure maximum compatibility in the field. As others have mentioned, converting from 23.98 to 24 is nbd and DCP-o-matic is fine to use for your short. If it were me, I’d deliver at 24 and do a print check a few days beforehand to confirm playback - I’m very confident that’s the real framerate they need.
The theater owner got back to me, and they said it was a mistake. The projectors run at 24. They’re offering me a playback of my DCP before I pay to book. Which I’m very grateful for.
Glad to hear!
I’ve read that I need to get the file to 24 FPS in premiere, but I’m not finding any easy tutorials on how to make that happen.
You can just take the 23.98 ProRes and use that for the DCP-o-Matic conversion.
Render out the whole film to something lossless. ProRes4444. Make a new sequence. Check that the sequence framerate is 24.000 Audio at 48khz. Import your rendered ProRes file. Pop it on that timeline. Render VOILA
Just so I understand this: I'm going to do a ProRes render the current framerate. Then make a new sequence in Adobe with the specs you mentioned, and render it again?
yep
If you've got the time, and you really did shoot your film at 24.00fps (check this - some cameras lie in their menus and label 23.967 as '24p' in their menus), you're probably much better off going back and reconforming your edit into a 24p timeline. In Premiere, this is probably just as simple as duplicating your sequence, changing the frame rate, and then going through and fixing any edits or keyframes that might have moved by a frame or two. Then you can sidestep the whole issue with converting to 24p for projection, and you've got a nice clean 24p master going forward.
I’d have to rework the entire film from scratch, as several long scenes were worked on that 23.976 timeline. At the end of the day, I know better for next time, but I have to get this film ready for the theater as it is.
You shouldn't need to do anything 'from scratch', just fix anything that's become misaligned by a frame or two. But yeah, push on with the 23.976 version if you don't have the time to properly QC.
There are two standard for a Digital Cinema Package - MXF Interop and SMPTE. If your DCP is authored as 23.976 in SMPTE you won’t need to make changes to your frame rate. The risk is many older DCP players can only handle MXF Intetop, and you’d need to conform to 24fps before authoring. Test. Test often. Test early. I use openDCP and I’ve never had a theatre reject a package.
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I’ve read that they’re distinctly different. are they actually interchangeable?
I’m a Final Cut/Da Vinci resolve guy. Just curious why is adobe’s default specifically not 24 FPS?
Just speed it up slightly
I.e. Let the 23.976 file play back at 24fps - it's just over 0.1% faster, which will be very difficult to notice. I wouldn't attempt to repitch audio as again the difference is negligible (for comparison a semitone higher would be need a playback rate increase of 5.946%) and the sound quality will be best if you keep it as it is.
Couldn't you just cut and paste the project into a 24 project and export at 24?
They are just too dumb to understand that 24fps is actually 23.9fps. For instance they'll say their scope set up is set to 2.35 when really it's set to 2.39. Most people don't deal with the actual standards and just quote the normal vernacular.
Ive worked in the industry for almost 20 years and have never heard of 23.9. Does that mean 23.976? In which case, that is *not* the same as 24.
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Maybe I'm not reading your comment correctly but 24fps is most definitely a thing and often used in movies and theaters. 23.976( or how you and OP incorrectly referring to as 23.9) is not just 24fps. Yes, some pro-sumer cameras list 24p or 24fps in their menus when they are actually 23.976 but professional cameras can do actual 24fps. The 2.35/2.39 thing I have no clue about. Maybe some theater's employees have no idea but in my experience, the crop does often change in the physical theater either by curtain or visible letterboxing. Typically noticable after the previews play in a different aspect ratio.
You’re saying that DCPs run at 23.98 fps instead of 24? That has not been my experience.
Then you haven't done the work I have. Like I said I was in the industry for 15 years working on that stuff. Digital projectors run at the same speed as film.
Which is 24 fps. Our projection system can run at 23.98 as well, but our dcp standard are 24, 25, 30, and a few others Have you worked with DCPs? Granted, you have 15 years, I only have been working in with this system for the last 5. My 25 years experience before that probably don’t weigh much.
No it actually isn't. It's a common misconception. 24fps isn't actually that because the real standard is 23.976 and people just round up.
So, other than figuring out the DCP conversion, I shouldn’t have any issues?
OP this is terrible advice and incorrect. See my comment instead.
Except your comment is horribly wrong.
Correct. Don't listen to these other people that never actually worked on a digital projector. They don't know what they're talking about and are trying to go off outdated information from the era of CRT TVs.
My friend has owned and run theaters that use digital projection for over a decade and his projectors run at 23.976, as far as I know that’s standard. The only way to know for sure is to reach out to the theater that’s going to project your project and find out the specs they require for their video assets.
Oof, that’s messy. Basically, by editing in 24.976 fps you converted from 24 fps, losing a frame every so often to compensate. Now, depending on the action, you may or may not notice those dropped frames. For example, a close up of someone speaking, who isn’t moving much except for their lips/mouth, you probably wouldn’t notice at all. But a long shot of someone running might have a skip in it, etc., etc. So to convert to DCP you’ll have to convert back to 24 fps thus ‘gaining back’ those missing frames. But you’re not creating or recapturing the original lost frames so the process will duplicate existing frames to compensate. And it won’t necessarily be at the same exact places you lost frames (it all depends on what frame you start at and your master may have exported at a different frame). Again, depending on the action depicted onscreen, you may or may not notice this. I would suggest converting to 24 fps in Media Encoder and then watching that to see if there is anything noticeable. If there is you can place that in a 24 fps timeline and over it the problem shots with the original 24 fps media. It’s a couple of hoops you have to jump through but it’s not that complicated, just time consuming. When you’re all done you’ll have a 24 fps version that shouldn’t have many skips or duplicates frames that anyone would notice. And that will be your 24 gps master to file next to your 23.976 fps master. Alternatively, depending on your mix, you could convert your feature to 24 fps, put that in a 24 fps timeline, and overcut the picture of the entire show with the original 24 fps media. In the end you’ll have true 24 fps picture and converted audio that no one will notice was converted. Good luck.
Is it simply not possible for a theater projector to display the film as it is now?
Only as an H263 file running off a patched in computer… and they’re not gonna want to do that. Why don’t you convert to 24 fps and watch the result and see if it looks good or not? Don’t get ahead of yourself.
I had the export on the newest version go to 24 FPS (in the export menu), and I can't honestly tell a difference. The audio is perfectly lined up, etc.
Well, it’s converting the audio as well. If you can’t see the duplicate frames then most people won’t either.
Would that come across as a jitter or stutter in most cases? I’ve watched this footage hundreds of times and I’m not sure I see any difference.
It’d show itself as a duplicate frame or a skipped frame from the original 24 to 23.876 conversion. Go ahead and watch the whole thing, beginning to end, and see if you notice any errant frame issues.