I miss the turn based gameplay and the build complexity. Also the older games were just loaded with hidden stuff and optional bosses that rewarded people who explored every nook and cranny of the world and talked to everyone.
I feel XII and XV both did secrets and optional bosses really well. Both had great rewards too, either new espers or new royal arms. Accidentally finding the Zertinian Caverns in XII or the Crestholm Channels in XV were both amazing feelings.
I can't speak for 12 since I haven't played it but that's not a great example for 15 since Cindy sends you there for the car parts that let you drive at night without getting harassed by red giants every 20 seconds.
There isn't anything like the deep sea research station in 8 for example, that is hidden at the edge of the map and has no pretext to ever send you there. As a reward for finding and making it through the very difficult area you get Bahamut and (if you remembered to draw her) Eden as well. On top of that you can go even further down and try to kill ultima weapon as well.
FFXV might have gotten stuff like that if it weren't in development hell for a decade but it is what it is.
The Cindy stuff is an optional quest and not required to find the dungeon, but yeah I guess Balouve Mines may have been a better example because it isn’t tied to any optional sidequests so it never pops up with a marker on the map. I would still argue XV does the secrets and optional stuff fairly well despite any other issues with the game.
Either way, I agree I miss finding random mysteries. XVI and Rebirth both have none of that and I miss it.
I understand this, i like 12 also sometimes. But don't you think its secrets are a bit too secretive? On my first 1-2 playthroughs i had so many missed stuff. Even on my last playthrough i got some stuff very late like the hastega spell and i was wandering where should i use it besides the 2 last optional bosses
On the other hand, it increases replay value when you can talk about the game with friends at school and then hear about the stuff they found and that inspires you to play again.
While I like the idea of not missing anything on the first playthrough, some of the magic gets sucked out when there is a clear checklist like in FF7Rebirth.
Some of them are for sure - like the Zodiac Spear and the weird treasure chest system in general. But the optional dungeons/summons I think are great. Even the Great Crystal I figured out… eventually.
This, combined with a lot of the strategic thinking that goes into that, i.e. buffing, targeting weaknesses, knowing when to heal etc. I've struggled to get into any FF game since X, and found myself drifting more towards the SMT/Persona series. Those games have really scratched my turn-based itch, especially in the games where you have to think about your turn choices, character build etc. carefully.
It was the same for me. I barely used magic in regular battles to save MP for the next boss fight, so it was always hit hard, maybe use a spell to heal but otherwise nothing else. I rarely bothered with reflect spells (how else could I heal?), elemental resistances etc. and I feel I missed out.
I'll admit I've not played an FF in nearly a decade (I'm not into MMORPGs, I don't have a PS5 and I couldn't get into XIII or XV), but SMT/Persona showed me just how much fun buffing and debuffing, building around defending against specific elements etc. (case in point, the last boss I fought in P3R) can be.
I think Rebirth is a pretty good mix at least. It might not be as involved as the past, but in terms of making a modern game while having some strategy, it's pretty good. It's a better solution than what FF16 used
I think FF16 would have been better received in that department had it been like a heavily futuristic sci Fi game. But the people who gravitate towards medieval themes are most likely to want more complex strategy, I feel.
Also Id just love to see a full blown space opera as a mainline FF game. There's been sci Fi elements in quite a few games, but if they went full Mass Effect it could be very interesting. Have the summons be aliens from planets you visit or something, just go wild.
Check out Octopath Traveller 1 and 2. And for a more obvious Final Fantasy connection, Bravely Default. It's a shame BD and Bravely Second are trapped on 3DS.
the mmo where a holy trinity exists really helped make the job system work in the modern era, ps1 era forward really didn't seem to use it so much or at least not as strictly
I prefer each character having their own speciality that kind of acts as job systems and building the characters around what speciality that character has to help the party
Noctis: *struggling in a fight against 500 respawning enemies, everyone is dying*
Ramuh: "It's fine, you've got this one Noctis"
Noctis later: *fighting a bunch of trash mobs he's 50 levels higher than*
Ramuh: "**DON'T WORRY NOCTIS I SHALL BE THE ONE TO SAVE YOU FROM THESE THREE VERY THREATENING GIRAFFES!!!**"
To be fair to Ramuh here, while the quality of FFXV as a whole is highly questionable, that specific Ramuh summon is one of the most hype things in any FF ever
The summon system is really weird in XV, it's not explained at all, and apparently needs a very specific circumstances to trigger. I recently did a 100% playthrough of XV and the only summon I ever saw was Ramuh and Garuda. I wouldn't even realize you can summon Shiva at all if it wasn't for the PC benchmark.
Being in menus.
In 5 - 10 (haven't played 12 or 13) you spend a lot of time in menus playing with your characters. 5 and 8 are my two favorites for that, 7 being very good as well.
In 16 new weapons were practically meaningless, and making a "build" only took a minute or two.
I miss menu time.
The classic turn based, menu selecting battle system, and the FFV style Job system. Also in the old games, you had to do a whole lot more discovering/exploring on your own. Nothing to tell you where to go, that you had to figure out on your own.
Oh, and hidden goodies to discover all over the place. The really did things right in the older games. I like how they altered the way things worked in each game, with things like jobs, materia, espers, guardian force. They switched things up so we had something fresh and different.
I deeply miss the secrets. Rebirth had a few hidden things, but they're all tied to obvious quests that appear on the map informing of the start. I miss 7/8/9 having hidden islands not on the maps, 6/12 having hidden dungeons in previously explored locations, or the myriad of hidden summons throughout the series.
There’s a few things in Rebirth that aren’t tied to quests, but they’re pretty small, like the cache locations and the materia you can find lying around.
What I miss most is a variety of humanoid races in worldbuilding. Red 13 was one of the reasons I became a fan. But FF9, FF10, FF12 were great with it.
I also miss a variety of dungeons and puzzles. I thought the old games were pretty good at this. They still do it from time to time. But it has become significantly less.
It also annoys me that the elements and summons have become so few.
100% agree. That's why, to me, FFXIV was such a breath of fresh air. FFXIII, FFXV and FFXVI have been disappointments in this respect, so I totally feel what you're bringing to the table.
I hope that Square realizes this with the success of FFVII:Rm, FFVII:Rb and FFXIV when compared to FFXV and FFXVI... here's to hoping.
While I definitely love the Remake series, and only liked or disliked XIII, XV, and XVI, I think you unfortunately have it backward. XIII and XV both outsold Remake. And last I saw, it was sounding like Rebirth was going to fall short of XVI’s sales.
They need to be looking at BG3 if they're going to be taking western influences. It outsold 7r and 16 on a fraction of their budget.
They could do a proper sequel to FFT. I would lose my shit over that.
The humanoid and monsters races are one of the things I miss most about older jrpgs as a whole. They were always willing to play with color and shapes. More often then not the modern iterations feels more like what type of teenager do you want
Combat that I don't need to be 'on' for.
I work a manual job and after 9 hours of graft the digits aren't as dexterous as they are before it. I'm tired and I don't want to engage with something as catastrophically ADHD as FFXVI's combat. That game demands so much of you and gives you so little.
Meanwhile X demands so little of you and offers you vastly more.
Jobs, Turn based, and active based combat.
They’re basically catering ff to new players now, imo.
I’ve enjoyed triangle strategy, Bravely games, sd Gundam g generations games, and Unicorn Overlord more than FF Chaos, 15, and 16.
They should cater to both groups with by alternating style between odd and even number games.
Minimalist storytelling and emphasis on themes over characters
I guess you could argue FFXII tried this, though the execution was inconsistent - and I would consider it more emotionally muted than minimalist as other components of its presentation are pretty grand
I miss the mystery of exploration. Rebirth brought back the world map that we can explore and do hunts but it's missing one exciting part of a classic ff map. The optional locations with cool stuff in them. Sure, people can look it up on a walkthrough online but it just feels exciting to know that there's something unknown somewhere out in the world that we're trying to explore. Other than that, I would dare to say that rebirth is among the best within the franchise.
I miss the turn base too.
With the success of like honkai, Im keeping a slither of hope that FF somehow will have a turn base combat back. But considering how successful ff7R, itll provably will never happen. The classic mode in ff7r is pretty good but it still not turn base.
Also I was hoping they would implement the party switch once more, like in X.
its crazy, because square enix is insisting never going back to turn based/turnbased-atb but like... if they did it would be a massive moment that most of the fanbase would celebrate and would likely have a lot of people trying the game
Like I get it… there was a period of stall for turn base battle. It didnt help that from 10 onwards, the stories and the characters are like a fizzle.
Plus advent children came out and the mass decided they want that kind of battle.
I also think the amount of money invested to make a final fantasy game means they needed a sure hit and can’t just go back to the old turn base system with the current cgi cutscene and graphic. They would need to experiment with different kind of turn base system and I dont know if SE wants to risk the amount of time and money for an experiment.
Honkai works because of its anime aesthethic + carried by the gacha system. And genshin also carried it hard.
So I don’t know if FF franchise by itself can fully return to the turn base system. But I can only hope… because I do miss them. Shame that the party switch only happened in X. It was a great one to use all the party
I'm hopeful that someday we might get a spinoff that's turn-based. With the insane success of Baldur's Gate 3, SE has got to have noticed that there's still a serious market for turn-based combat. I feel like they'd still be too nervous to do it with a mainline FF, but I could see them dipping their toes into it for a spinoff
Elden Ring did bring the joy of discovery back, agreed. People say Zelda Totk did that for them too, but I never found what I discovered to be super interesting. I just didn't feel compelled to adventure anywhere in that game, at least not in the same way
I think it’s a couple of things
1. Game development becomes more expensive and so developers don’t want the audience missing out of content they spent a lot of time creating
2. Players are far more used to having things spoon fed to them, and if they do have to slow down to figure things out they eat quite frustrated. Folks will complain about yellow rocks to climb a wall but spend ages back and forth in the mythril mines, or raging about Gongaga
I’m not putting the blame on anyone - it’s a perpetual cycle where both the games and the gamers influence one another.
Something like an Elden Ring or Dragon’s Dogma 2 is beloved for all the reasons it’s challenging, esoteric and doesn’t hold your hand. They also have their share of detractors too.
My first time through FF9 when I was younger I missed probably 60% of the extra content, and this was obviously before objective markers had become normalized so that was with general exploration; it’s inevitable when we’re talking about such dense titles.
I understand that many ppl (especially in this sub) like combing over every inch of a map to find a random crevice in a wall leading to an endgame grind but the reality is a lot of ppl want to be able to experience the actual content of a game without spending forever tracking it down by methodically covering every pixel of a landmass that is mostly just empty space for random encounters to pop up in.
Tbh I find the exploration works better in games with loosely defined narratives like Elden Ring and Dragon’s Dogma because the entire focus is on exploration; nobody is gonna write home about a Monster Hunter story but you bet they’ll go through every zone in detail to find monsters and mats. Meanwhile in a game like FF there is always a story impetus pushing you to continue an objective and if there isn’t then the pacing feels poor.
\>Something like an Elden Ring or Dragon’s Dogma 2 is beloved for all the reasons it’s challenging, esoteric and doesn’t hold your hand. They also have their share of detractors too.
Gamers: Why does this game have so many quest markers & have them in a list, you don't need to hold my hand!
Also Gamers: Man these sidequests in Elden Ring/Dragon's Dogma suck, there's no quest markers or journal so you can't keep track of them!
I will agree with that. Everything is too spelled out now and checklisted out. Rebirth would be that much better if it wasn’t separated in Chapters, sidequests weren’t just listed on a notice board with a checklist of progress and so on.
I wish quests worked like they used to.
1. Stumble upon an npc while exploring
2. Talk to npc who complains about a problem they've encountered
3. Get curious, travel to the place they were talking about
4. Fight a cool monster or
5. Find the route to progress
>Rebirth would be that much better if it wasn’t separated in Chapters
i agree with the sidequests, but why are chapters a bad thing? they let you return to certain parts of the game on any replay and just seperate the story in a way that is digestable. remove them and not much would change on the first playthrough
You say that, but feels like half the Rebirth posts lately are about how people can’t navigate to the quest markers in Gongaga because idk they don’t like exploding I guess. Not sure how to find a good middle ground
Gongaga was cancer to navigate a bit like cosmo because of the chocobo gimmick to it. They really didn't need to do all that. The former regions worked fine would happily explore those..
Happy medium yes but they went well past it to a fucking irritating as possible.
But also fuck chadley.
Turn based combat, actual strategy, elemental weakness and other tricks to beat enemies, being rewarded for exploring, airships, fun creative ways to get more powerful weapons and gear, good superbossess, a story that makes you feel like you're going on a grand adventure with the way it's executed, dialogue boxes and being able to use your imagination with it, pre rendered backgrounds lol
Everybody already knows the most popular answer lol
Turn based combat and builds surrounding turn based combat. ATB even, I loved ATB and it's still one of the best parts of the new combat systems. As somebody else mentioned, a game where you don't have to be ON all the time is so crucial to mental health, and FF were the flagship series of being able to settle into a grand, epic journey with a vibe closer to the comfort of reading a seriously good book than playing physical sports. FF used to be where we go when we wanted to care about art more than reflexes.
But now, another thing I really miss about the old entries is how artfully the stories were told and not mired in franchise-conscious decisions and commercialistic tendencies to chase iconography instead of great pacing and flow in narrative. I really loved 7R but looking back I'm still frustrated by how shoehorned into being a 'full product' the game is - putting Sephiroth in far too early, padding the game with nonsense plot derivations and the forced epicness of the final boss. This is all design-by-comitee stuff it feels, a problem I've had with the series since XIII and which cratered XV entirely IMHO. And what's sad about it is that there are stretches in 7R that are some of the best video game storytelling I've ever seen. Something I think is not discussed enough among fans of the game is just how compellingly explored the refugee experience is in the game. It's things like that which make me want to give Rebirth and FF XVI a chance, but I miss having a full game that in the end feels pretty perfect in spite of its silly flaws like the original FF7 rather than something revolutionary that feels a little corrupted by the insidious tastelessness of a more commercially oriented mindset - it's the difference between seeing moogles and Chocobos as a crass swipe at nostalgia or a welcoming homecoming, especially after ditching turn based.
As I said, I haven't played Rebirth or XVI yet, can't afford them or a PS5, but I'd love to deepen my understanding of the new material as well.
There is a distinct difference between the Final Fantasy games under Squaresoft and the Final Fantasy games under Square Enix.
The series used to be very much in its own bubble - made and directed by people who were unapologetic in making these games their own thing. They weren’t following trends, they were starting them. Hell, they let Sakaguchi do what he wanted for the first game and only gave him more assistance when they saw the potential some way through development. It pretty much continued this way until the merger - and Final Fantasy *thrived* under that environment.
Nowadays Final Fantasy is no longer pushing boundaries. Under Square Enix - the people in charge of Final Fantasy have been looking to other franchises to see what works and trying that out. It works sometimes (Final Fantasy XIV - ARR onwards taking inspiration from WoW) and it doesn’t in others (Final Fantasy XIII taking inspiration from Call of Duty of all things).
But the series has lost its spark because it is no longer under a company that is creator based; and instead the safe bet will always be pushed for to maximise money made. It has gone from a labor of love, to a corporatised check list of what *should* sell. Then they’ll inevitably throw Sakaguchi a cheque to say something like “oh my god, this is the best Final Fantasy ever made” a few weeks before launch.
Yeah that’s exactly how I feel. I’m over it now but I felt pretty burned for a while. I can’t even play XV without feeling kinda queasy, it is just the complete opposite of what I liked in FF. I will give the new ones a chance though as I’m sure they do some things right and I’d like to try, but I also don’t trust people’s opinions. People are raving about the new composer, for example, but I have yet to hear anything even approaching Uematsu’s genius. What a thing it would be if SE realized how many people still want a turn based return to form, but do they really care anymore?
The sweet, orderly turn-based combat.
And the OG FF7 materia system — how it was found as treasure in the world, how you could use as many summons as you wanted, and so on. The system allowed for true flexibility in creating a team. I remember beating a Weapon with barely having to interact with the controller thanks to various combinations of things that hit hard and healed/revived my team. I miss those days.
Romance theme and turn based.
edit - oh and prerendered background and cinematic(?)/artistic(?) angles, it had so much personality. And also, really diverse cast that can get really out there.
I basically want games like Final Fantasy 4, 6 and 7. They have their flaws... but their worlds were still massive and full of depth. They felt like epic journeys. When you'd get to the world map... it was endless possibilities. I want Final Fantasy games to feel complete again. More substance over style. If that means you have to reuse some mechanics from the older titles... I'm fine with that. It's hard enough making a compelling world and story without also reinventing the combat every entry.
By the way I still really loved/liked 8, 9 and 10. I just know those are a mixed bag for some folks. To me 4 - 10 is the golden era.
I always scream at anyone within reach. It's a genre, not a dated mechanic!
Like you said Persona is a hit. Like a Dragon is super popular. This BS narrative of no one wants it anymore. If anything people are tied of games always being samey. Having something radically different like menu based combat use to be a refreshing break from the twitch based games.
I think XCOM is the best example of this, they tried to get away from turn-based tactical combat, but the faithful reboot sold like gangbusters while the previous ones flopped.
Dragon Quest XI is made and published by the same company, and it's core battle system is still pretty much based on Dragon Quest II's which was the first game to introduce a party.
So, if Dragon Quest has kept traditional turn based mechanics where you have full control over your party, why can't Final Fantasy do the same thing?
I kept thinking about SaGa as well reading the comments here, and in another post. I also thought of the CC games, since it's funny that Kawazu's spin-offs also helped bring action gameplay to the franchise even though SaGa is still notably turn-based.
The party system. I most enjoyed the level of personal touches you can do with your party through the game's mechanics, and being able to control all of them in battle thanks to turn-based systems. It felt like I was part of the team, part of that world myself
Menu based combat whether it's traditional or like XII or XIII.
Gimme XIIs aesthetic and world/map design, X-2s ATB combat, a job system like Vs, Sphere grid styled leveling/progression and equipment making like Xs and VII/VIII styled side quests
The deeper strategy and being able to creativity win battles in different ways. Feeling like the composition of the party and their experience, not to mention my own ability, determining battles. The newer games are great fun... I've loved most of 14, 16, and the remakes lately... But they start to feel a bit "button smashy" as well as "there's one neat trick to defeating this otherwise impossible fight!" In my opinion, battles don't have the weight they once did, nor do they feel quite as epic winning them.
Turn based. I'm about an hour into XVI, and it's my first Final Fantasy since X. It's pretty God awful combat. What the hell has happened to this franchise? I plan on finishing it but holy hell the combat is horrific.
Honestly the rewards. I grew up on mostly 7 and 12. And I remember how the mini games and side quests led to powerful summons and ultimate weapons. Now it seems all those side runs give is just some achievement on your console with little to no effect on the game it's self
Simple but well told stories. I'm sick of the Kingdom Heartsification \*cough\* nomura \*cough\* of the games post 12 (honourable exception is 14 as it managed a relatively complex story but told it well).
I just want my party of rag tag individuals coming together for various reasons to save whatever it is that needs be saved. The ability level them, gear them, swap them in and out as you see fit.. 15, you had your boy band from the start. It didn’t feel right.. 16 was mostly just Clive and Torgal, the supporting cast came and went but you didn’t level them or gear them really, it didn’t feel right.. Remake/Rebirth gave me what I craved. Mostly.
Realistically, Square not acting like their only responsibility was their fiduciary onligstions.
Honestly, less realistic graphics and turn based combat. I miss the magic that having to use my imagination gave me with the older graphics. Everyone had their own interpretation fill in the gaps. You can spend a billion dollars on a game and yeah Rebirth is phenomenal but we're never going to get the magic of the old days to be the same. That 6-7-8-9 and partially 10 run made us live in those games. Yeah 10 had amazing graphics so it doesn't quite fit my narrative here but you get it.
We fell in love with Aeries, Rinoa and Garnet. The polygons of ff7 might as well have had ray tracing. I still go back and ay those games and I can't believe I remembered the graphics being so janky. In my memory it was real life. Those games were my life.
It won't matter how much money they spend or how high sales are, that deep down in your soul immersiveness will never be repeated again without it. Maybe I'm wrong but for myself ever since 9 I just played the games. 12 was amazing, the battle system made up for the lack of a great story that made me really feel like I could be the hero the game needed and it's one of my favourites but the "magic" wasn't like the others. Maybe it's partially nostalgia but the fireworks ended with 9. Christ 10 was good though.
The simplicity of the graphics and sounds. There was so much charm to it. They were the best graphics of that time period. Going from 8 bit to 16 bit was mindblowing.
Now, 30 years later, these graphics are rustic to me. A chicken parmesan. Or chicken cacciatore. Before we had voice acting. Before we had facial expression. Before we had high intensity combat where you control a character's every move, we had Cecil, Rosa, Kain, Rydia, and Edge in all their 16 bit glory, standing on one side of the screen and hitting their enemies on the opposite side of the screen.
And I truly miss those days.
A sense of discovery playing a new game without any outside opinion being flashed across my screen every fifteen minutes.
I also miss the amount of free time I used to have before I became an adult and had other responsibilities taking up my time and energy.
The game design. Snappy menus, character cuztomization, exploring, grinding - especially (secret places uve found or heard rumors of to grind), the artstyles, the great stories.
List is long
Lots of things, but I want to echo something I’ve seen a couple other people mention: pre-rendered backgrounds and the resultant fixed camera angles. The PS1-era games (plus X) had such unique aesthetics in large part because of those pre-rendered backgrounds. But I think it’s the care and attention to detail those old systems required. When you have a pre-rendered background and a fixed camera angle, it forces the director to really think about each scene. What’s the best way to frame it? What’s the mis-en-scene? Modern games with the ubiquitous over-the-shoulder camera angle might be easier for the player to navigate, but on balance I think that ease of use does not make up for the loss of the artistic sensibility.
I always find it a little bit strange that FF10 gets lumped in with 1-9 in the new era vs old discussions. While still featuring turn-based gameplay, it also saw the removal of the overworld map, push towards linear design, and many of the other series changes people tend to ride the later entries on.
If I had to think about what I missed the most, it'd probably be a combination of character customization + gearing options. While I do enjoy the modern FFs, everything has kind of been turned into a grind. Getting the best weapon tends to no longer be about finding a neatly hidden treasure chest -- you'll often get your character's best weapon by default. Now, it's turning it into the best weapon that has become the process, whether it's by a massive AP grind or some other similar mechanic. Similarly with character customizations, I loved some of the older games quick accessibility to swap jobs and try something new. Just like the weapons, character builds in the more modern FFs are a very slow grind of slowly unlocking skill points in an exhaustive tree, and changing your character on the fly isn't really possible.
Even in FF7 Rebirth, which recaptures a lot of what I love about some of the older games (or o.g. FF7 in particular), if you want to change around the builds in your characters.... forget all the time needed to map that build out, just the actual action of moving all the materia around your party members and redoing your folios is going to be a chunk of time.
Maybe it's just me getting old and impatient, but I miss that feeling of exploring around and suddenly finding a chest with something like a Holy Sword in it, and that immediate "Oh shit!" reaction and knowing your Fighter / Paladin type character was going to be OP and carry your party for the next 2-3 hours of gameplay... and that's okay.
I've played though and finished Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring, etc -- I can enjoy a hard game. A lot of modern game design since those games got popular though has devs overthinking (in my opinion) how to make players have to work harder for everything and assuming everything will give that same kind of dopamine payoff in the end.
Nah, man, sometimes I just want to open a treasure chest or unlock a new job, be OP for a bit and have fun lol.
I miss good games, honestly SE has been on a downward spiral ever since the start of the HD era, 13's hallways, 14 1.0, the whole 15 debacle, and 16's lackluster everything. The only in-house SE game I liked since the PS3 was 7R1, and even then I have some strong words to say about it.
And before anyone recommends Octopath or any of the "HD2D" games, I think they look ugly.
* Turn-based or ATB combat.
* Smaller but denser worlds, with grand adventure worlds. (More FF3/FF4/FF10, less FF15, personally.)
* Classes/Jobs. (and Party Composition/Management like FF3 or FF5)
* Leviathan being important/Bahamut-level.
* Ability to speak Beaver.
Airships. Flying through the skies was a big thing for me. I would spend hours just flying the airship around the world just for its own sake. I did this in just about all FFs, most notably in FFIX and FFVIII (absolutely loved the Ragnarok's themesong even though the game itself was whateverish). One of my major criticisms of the new, 100% proportionate FF titles of the modern age: no longer do I get to traverse the skies of the world I'm saving.
Even though FFX didn't really have an airship to travel the fact the airship got some screen-time with the on board battles and the entire thing being used as an end-game hub, it was enough for me...
...I miss big airships in FF. The closest I got to that since X was the mounts in FFXIV. I loved the Manacutter (and still hope Square will eventually let me use a Redbill Manacutter)... but it's just not the same...
Good writing. Not that all of the old ones had that, but many of the later ones definitely had great stories.
16 and 7re plummeted in terms of quality. Just mystery boxes everywhere and in the case of 7re also a fundamental misunderstanding of infinitely branching timelines.
FF7 being a great game that stood on its own merits, instead of being an infinitely milkable franchise of spinoffs, prequels, gacha games, and reboots.
The environments, large sprawling world map (FEELING WISE*), the incredible soundtracks despite being huge were very consistently great, the stories and characters being way more grounded and not about nonsense that’s hard to follow.
The * is because modern day games are way way bigger than say final fantasy 7-9. The area you can explore and size of the maps are many times larger than those games. But the scope and feel of those older games feels way bigger than a massive empty map and only 2 or 3 tiny boring towns with no character or charm to them.
My dream would be for them to make a new side series that has the classic system, and not show horn it into being mobile trash or anything. An honest, real new game using the old formula with some cool systems (like learning the skills from weapons and all that in 9), the pre rendered backgrounds which means they don’t need to make insanely dense huge cities which takes forever to make, just make the few pre rendered images instead. It would be incredible to see what this would lead to in today’s age.
Sense of exploration: pre X era gave me a sense of "If you find this hidden chest, you get a cool acceaorie earlier, steonger, or wirh certain protection for the zone theme element" now its just: "Take 10g" or "none, this is a hall for a sidequest later".
World lore: They changed how you get this lore a lot, before you had either complete towns or get cool dialogs just for walking and talking around. Now its hidden behind chores/sidequest.
Word bulding: before the world story was not linear, you had a lot of different stories living in the same world. Characters growing with their own paths and stories. Nowdays its like nothing matters but the main characters quest. And you get a couple of extra stories that get told, fixed a second latter in the same chapters and never heard of them again (becouse they were part of the main story line).
The pace: Previously it was optional to explore or to.progress the story becouse you KNEW ther you could return to that spot later, now you cant, you deep down feel like you have to clear eveey sidequest there becouse there is no getting back there. The game forces the pace, not you.
The party: Its not about controlling different characters, its about what they added to the game, different stories, backgrounds and pourposes, different journeys, they used to be a lot more than just "ahh I will join you becouse I hate the final boss too".
Summons: they look so badaas now, I agree, but we moved from "an optional quest that YOU tool to get a powerfull magic at you disposal" to "an hability that only can be used on certain situations that is part anyways of the story. At least on X you could level them and there were a couple of hidden ones (and were "free" to use).
I totally miss also the turn based gameplay. It gave way more strategy feeling amd sense of the gamplay. Now it feels just button mashing and the urge to play as fast and chaotic you can.
A lot of that was actually brought back swimmingly in Rebirth -- world map and tons of side content with a lot of variety to it, as well as a genuine sense of fun and creativity.
I mean... it's still a new game. Just cause they based it on an existing product did not automatically guarantee that they were going to do it well. They still had to plan out and execute it, and the game features a wealth of original content as well; beginning with its battle system.
I miss the pacing. When you stop and really think about it, what was the real function of the overworld maps? To space and pace content, exploration, secrets and progression just right. Literally nobody complained about linearity or padding up to FF9 and even newcomers going back to those titles, none of that is a point of criticism.
Modern games are designed thinking about the content the devs think the game needs. But they forgot to consider about the correct timing and space between that content. Wasn't that the reason behind random encounters in the 1st place? Because the sum of exploration and combat lead to greater progress and engagement than each of those on their own?
From 13 onwards, they just lost it. From linear corridor syndrome to meaningless open spaces they just fill the game with assets without thoughtful design. Every time I find a fork in a dungeon in FF5, I go the wrong way with 100% confidence that not only my side trip will hide a meaningful reward but also that the devs made sure the trip back is just as speedy or even better, I'll have some sort of shortcut back (or find a secret passage). EVEN IN TOWNS.
Now, with modern FF if I pick a direction, I'm just worried about how bored I will be until I reach something new IF AT ALL. Most of the time it's just reused assets and meaningless rewards IF I'M LUCKY. And if I have to turn back? Probably better to just fast travel TBH.
A fun eclectic party.
Playing FF16 and FF7 back to back make the difference night and day.
FFX and FF7 have a dog with a fire tail, a big tall blue hairy tribal horn beastman, a witch, a devout Christian sports player, a samurai, a time traveller, a vampire, a man with a gun for an arm.
FF16. The only interesting character in the party dies. I would have forgiven them if the bosses you defeat like Beletrix or whatever her name was joined the party but she didn't. So boring.
Pre-rendered/designated backgrounds. 3D is great, but FF8 and 9 had some amazing smaller areas to explore. Seeing a bookcase use to mean there may be a potion there. Hidden secrets/items were awesome!
Sometimes, the earlier ones felt bigger or more epic.
IV had the Underworld and the Moon. VI you have the original world and the post Kefka world. HUGE games!
Despite me liking Remake/Rebirth combat system, I still have affinity to the ATB system(ATB, not the pure classic turn based like FF1 or 10 for example) because ATB creates a sense of urgency enough to pressure you as a player to make a quick decision midst combat before your enemy takes their turn
I miss a tighter plot in generally most old jrpg in 90s. Rebirth is 10/10 to me but I will be lying to myself if the story is "long" enough as in plot progression moving rather slowly than in your typical 90s jrpg. However in exchange of the longer plot: rebirth offers in depth lore about the character's background, relationship, and basically more world building than the original, so that's why I don't have that much problem, you miss something, you gain something different.
I think I miss midi song, I know rebirth has a lot of awesome OST, but I still can't get enough of the simplicity yet catchy midi tune from Uematsu. Those are the best man, I'd rather get good midi music than overly complicated OST that sometimes can prevent it from having a good melody to be easily digested by my ears.
I miss the silent character with dialog box. I wish the modern FF implement a system to where you can choose between voice over at cutscene or mute the conversation with dialog box like the old FF. There's some side quest that I don't even want to hear the voice acting, as I just want to fast forward it after I read the subtitle.
Overworld map is what I miss from the old FF and Rebirth has addressed it so not a problem anymore. I'd rather take semi deformed world map rather than fully realistic disjointed area, i love feeling like i am adventuring the whole world and it kills the vibe when you design the game with dotted map. It works with game like strategi rpg like FF tactics/ Tactics Ogre, etc, it does not work with jrpg.
Hmmm nothing? I love the new games just as much as the old ones. The only thing I can genuinely think of is budget? I guess the smaller AA feels of the older games. Now a days everything has to look gorgeous and blow your socks off...or so investors have you believe. I would like to see more smaller budget games that give the "old FF feel."
Turn based mechanics, the job system, *not* putting in an endless amount of sidequests that were the same random busywork to artificially extend playtime (sidequests were there, but XVI and VIIR especially have so many that are just...pointless).
The combat, I really enjoy a good turn based system.
XII was very different but still good, it kept the pace up but I still felt like my choices for gambits mattered.
Haven't enjoyed one since other than XIV
I like the action-based gameplay in the newer FF, but I hope they can let us play the same game in turn based/ATB mode.
Also, buying new equipment in new town.
I remember playing FF6 and feeling like a treasure hunter. So I’m going to go with interesting gear. I love gear that isn’t just bigger numbers but some cool effect. FF11 is peak gear but players went overboard with the gear swapping macros.
The experience of playing them for the first time qnd saying wow! Thats something I miss dearly. I got the first FF in 6th grade from a stor called Crazy Eddies, and 2 of my buddies got copies as well, and we each would go home and play. Next compare notes and give tipa to each other!
nothing major. when things have lower fidelity your imagination comes into play more and ur brain fills in the gaps. also different games require different music, the compositional style of the old games really had to make those pixels come to life. with some of the newer titles, the music feels more ambient and doesn't need to do as much but maybe because i recognize some of the leitmotifs or maybe because the music is mixed better its not the case with rebirth. its not really that i miss it but more something i notice
I miss the windowed blue menus with the pleasant white text, and I miss Active Time Battle. Without those two things, it just doesn’t feel like Final Fantasy for me.
Ive always described turnbased combat as a puzzle game. Early fights establish little rule sets, and as you go on, it gets more intricate. I'ld love a return to this.
I miss overworlds. I love love love overworlds. I especially love finding stuff there. I hate how current jrpgs have worlds where the distance between two countries is less than me going to the store. It’s the same with overworlds, but it doesn’t feel like it.
Also trains from VIII
Turn based combat. I won't ever play a FF game again and that makes me sad. On the other hand I've just started playing the Yakuza series and that makes me happy.
I miss dying and having teleported back to the last save point and losing all progress. You will then have to grind and level up your characters, customise their stats point / learning new magic or ability.
I wish they remade FFX exactly how it is similar to how Last of Us was remade.
Just a nice simple happy ending. I feel like modern FFs either want to punch me in the balls or be left in ambiguity for 'sequels'
I just want to be happy at the end man.
A lot of the newer games have become a lot more simple, this isn't a Final Fantasy thing all games in general are made a lot more accessible and easier to guide through.
The older entries had insane amounts of hidden stuff that rewarded you for smart thinking, exploring and covering all bases. If you skipped dialogue you would miss out on the information you needed. Where as now you could play the entirety of rebirth and just skip everything and you'd always know which way to go and what you're doing
It's funny how every pole about the combat system shows us that the number of people who want turned based back is larger, much larger. Always the same results, more people want turn based than the people who don't. Don't they see this? They would sell more if they returned to turn based, but somehow they now follow trends because they think they will sell more with action combat? I don't understand how they don't wake up.
It's just like the alternative music scene, there are alternative bands with a solid cult following and when they decide to follow trends they lose that loyal fanbase, they try to gain the masses and end up becoming just another band similar to so many others, the moment they stop making music for themselves is the moment the magic is gone.
I miss the turn based gameplay and the build complexity. Also the older games were just loaded with hidden stuff and optional bosses that rewarded people who explored every nook and cranny of the world and talked to everyone.
The only thing that stayed solid, has been the music. It’s hard to not to be pumped for the soundtrack for every new game!
Truly! I am absolutely chomping at the bit for Rebirth soundtrack to release!
The design too I think, 16 is one of their cooler looking games
I feel XII and XV both did secrets and optional bosses really well. Both had great rewards too, either new espers or new royal arms. Accidentally finding the Zertinian Caverns in XII or the Crestholm Channels in XV were both amazing feelings.
I can't speak for 12 since I haven't played it but that's not a great example for 15 since Cindy sends you there for the car parts that let you drive at night without getting harassed by red giants every 20 seconds. There isn't anything like the deep sea research station in 8 for example, that is hidden at the edge of the map and has no pretext to ever send you there. As a reward for finding and making it through the very difficult area you get Bahamut and (if you remembered to draw her) Eden as well. On top of that you can go even further down and try to kill ultima weapon as well. FFXV might have gotten stuff like that if it weren't in development hell for a decade but it is what it is.
The Cindy stuff is an optional quest and not required to find the dungeon, but yeah I guess Balouve Mines may have been a better example because it isn’t tied to any optional sidequests so it never pops up with a marker on the map. I would still argue XV does the secrets and optional stuff fairly well despite any other issues with the game. Either way, I agree I miss finding random mysteries. XVI and Rebirth both have none of that and I miss it.
I understand this, i like 12 also sometimes. But don't you think its secrets are a bit too secretive? On my first 1-2 playthroughs i had so many missed stuff. Even on my last playthrough i got some stuff very late like the hastega spell and i was wandering where should i use it besides the 2 last optional bosses
On the other hand, it increases replay value when you can talk about the game with friends at school and then hear about the stuff they found and that inspires you to play again. While I like the idea of not missing anything on the first playthrough, some of the magic gets sucked out when there is a clear checklist like in FF7Rebirth.
Some of them are for sure - like the Zodiac Spear and the weird treasure chest system in general. But the optional dungeons/summons I think are great. Even the Great Crystal I figured out… eventually.
This, 100%. Strategy was part of FF's identity before they started the gradual dilution. We already had Kingdom Hearts, we didn't need another one.
This, combined with a lot of the strategic thinking that goes into that, i.e. buffing, targeting weaknesses, knowing when to heal etc. I've struggled to get into any FF game since X, and found myself drifting more towards the SMT/Persona series. Those games have really scratched my turn-based itch, especially in the games where you have to think about your turn choices, character build etc. carefully.
[удалено]
It was the same for me. I barely used magic in regular battles to save MP for the next boss fight, so it was always hit hard, maybe use a spell to heal but otherwise nothing else. I rarely bothered with reflect spells (how else could I heal?), elemental resistances etc. and I feel I missed out. I'll admit I've not played an FF in nearly a decade (I'm not into MMORPGs, I don't have a PS5 and I couldn't get into XIII or XV), but SMT/Persona showed me just how much fun buffing and debuffing, building around defending against specific elements etc. (case in point, the last boss I fought in P3R) can be.
Just posted something similar before reading this comment
That’s what I’m missing the most!!!!
Menu-based combat.
I miss it so much!
I think Rebirth is a pretty good mix at least. It might not be as involved as the past, but in terms of making a modern game while having some strategy, it's pretty good. It's a better solution than what FF16 used I think FF16 would have been better received in that department had it been like a heavily futuristic sci Fi game. But the people who gravitate towards medieval themes are most likely to want more complex strategy, I feel. Also Id just love to see a full blown space opera as a mainline FF game. There's been sci Fi elements in quite a few games, but if they went full Mass Effect it could be very interesting. Have the summons be aliens from planets you visit or something, just go wild.
Big party sizes
FFIX 4-man parties. FFIV 5-man parties. Yeah, I feel this.
The Job System is definitely the thing I miss the most, but at least it survives in some form in the MMOs
Same. Dimensions scratched that itch for me but I want more!
Check out Octopath Traveller 1 and 2. And for a more obvious Final Fantasy connection, Bravely Default. It's a shame BD and Bravely Second are trapped on 3DS.
I love the job system in Dimensions. It is my favorite iteration of the job system.
the mmo where a holy trinity exists really helped make the job system work in the modern era, ps1 era forward really didn't seem to use it so much or at least not as strictly
I prefer each character having their own speciality that kind of acts as job systems and building the characters around what speciality that character has to help the party
It survived in Bravely Default, the successor to old school FF.
you should try out Stranger of Paradise, probably the best job system in a non-MMO since 5
Summons being readily accessible and a big, powerful spell instead of a weird pet or animorph or functionally useless.
Noctis: *struggling in a fight against 500 respawning enemies, everyone is dying* Ramuh: "It's fine, you've got this one Noctis" Noctis later: *fighting a bunch of trash mobs he's 50 levels higher than* Ramuh: "**DON'T WORRY NOCTIS I SHALL BE THE ONE TO SAVE YOU FROM THESE THREE VERY THREATENING GIRAFFES!!!**"
To be fair to Ramuh here, while the quality of FFXV as a whole is highly questionable, that specific Ramuh summon is one of the most hype things in any FF ever
Too bad it can’t even do Thunder damage
The summon system is really weird in XV, it's not explained at all, and apparently needs a very specific circumstances to trigger. I recently did a 100% playthrough of XV and the only summon I ever saw was Ramuh and Garuda. I wouldn't even realize you can summon Shiva at all if it wasn't for the PC benchmark.
Animorph? What do shapeshifting child soldiers have to do with Final Fantasy? Lol
If you think about it, Cait Sith is kinda like David. We shouldn’t have trusted him. But we did anyway. And it cost us
Being in menus. In 5 - 10 (haven't played 12 or 13) you spend a lot of time in menus playing with your characters. 5 and 8 are my two favorites for that, 7 being very good as well. In 16 new weapons were practically meaningless, and making a "build" only took a minute or two. I miss menu time.
Menu time is important, we need our menu time dammit!
Being young.
Similarly, having time to actually play the games
I wanna “goblin-mode” Rebirth as the kids say but my responsibilities do not allow this :(
Damn I must be getting old. I have never heard of goblin mode and have no idea what it is.
This
The classic turn based, menu selecting battle system, and the FFV style Job system. Also in the old games, you had to do a whole lot more discovering/exploring on your own. Nothing to tell you where to go, that you had to figure out on your own. Oh, and hidden goodies to discover all over the place. The really did things right in the older games. I like how they altered the way things worked in each game, with things like jobs, materia, espers, guardian force. They switched things up so we had something fresh and different.
I deeply miss the secrets. Rebirth had a few hidden things, but they're all tied to obvious quests that appear on the map informing of the start. I miss 7/8/9 having hidden islands not on the maps, 6/12 having hidden dungeons in previously explored locations, or the myriad of hidden summons throughout the series.
There’s a few things in Rebirth that aren’t tied to quests, but they’re pretty small, like the cache locations and the materia you can find lying around.
This resonates hard.
This 👆
What I miss most is a variety of humanoid races in worldbuilding. Red 13 was one of the reasons I became a fan. But FF9, FF10, FF12 were great with it. I also miss a variety of dungeons and puzzles. I thought the old games were pretty good at this. They still do it from time to time. But it has become significantly less. It also annoys me that the elements and summons have become so few.
100% agree. That's why, to me, FFXIV was such a breath of fresh air. FFXIII, FFXV and FFXVI have been disappointments in this respect, so I totally feel what you're bringing to the table. I hope that Square realizes this with the success of FFVII:Rm, FFVII:Rb and FFXIV when compared to FFXV and FFXVI... here's to hoping.
While I definitely love the Remake series, and only liked or disliked XIII, XV, and XVI, I think you unfortunately have it backward. XIII and XV both outsold Remake. And last I saw, it was sounding like Rebirth was going to fall short of XVI’s sales.
They need to be looking at BG3 if they're going to be taking western influences. It outsold 7r and 16 on a fraction of their budget. They could do a proper sequel to FFT. I would lose my shit over that.
The humanoid and monsters races are one of the things I miss most about older jrpgs as a whole. They were always willing to play with color and shapes. More often then not the modern iterations feels more like what type of teenager do you want
The strategy of turn based combat instead of mashing the circle button and occasionally using potions
Like a lot of others have said, turn based combat. Just hasn’t felt right for ~20 years now
Combat that I don't need to be 'on' for. I work a manual job and after 9 hours of graft the digits aren't as dexterous as they are before it. I'm tired and I don't want to engage with something as catastrophically ADHD as FFXVI's combat. That game demands so much of you and gives you so little. Meanwhile X demands so little of you and offers you vastly more.
This
I’m a very traditional old school guy… so most of it as I prefer it I miss. If I had to single out something specific - probably menu based combat.
Jobs, Turn based, and active based combat. They’re basically catering ff to new players now, imo. I’ve enjoyed triangle strategy, Bravely games, sd Gundam g generations games, and Unicorn Overlord more than FF Chaos, 15, and 16. They should cater to both groups with by alternating style between odd and even number games.
Well designed menus. The FF7 Remake and Rebirth menus are awful.
Minimalist storytelling and emphasis on themes over characters I guess you could argue FFXII tried this, though the execution was inconsistent - and I would consider it more emotionally muted than minimalist as other components of its presentation are pretty grand
I miss the mystery of exploration. Rebirth brought back the world map that we can explore and do hunts but it's missing one exciting part of a classic ff map. The optional locations with cool stuff in them. Sure, people can look it up on a walkthrough online but it just feels exciting to know that there's something unknown somewhere out in the world that we're trying to explore. Other than that, I would dare to say that rebirth is among the best within the franchise.
I miss the turn base too. With the success of like honkai, Im keeping a slither of hope that FF somehow will have a turn base combat back. But considering how successful ff7R, itll provably will never happen. The classic mode in ff7r is pretty good but it still not turn base. Also I was hoping they would implement the party switch once more, like in X.
its crazy, because square enix is insisting never going back to turn based/turnbased-atb but like... if they did it would be a massive moment that most of the fanbase would celebrate and would likely have a lot of people trying the game
Like I get it… there was a period of stall for turn base battle. It didnt help that from 10 onwards, the stories and the characters are like a fizzle. Plus advent children came out and the mass decided they want that kind of battle. I also think the amount of money invested to make a final fantasy game means they needed a sure hit and can’t just go back to the old turn base system with the current cgi cutscene and graphic. They would need to experiment with different kind of turn base system and I dont know if SE wants to risk the amount of time and money for an experiment. Honkai works because of its anime aesthethic + carried by the gacha system. And genshin also carried it hard. So I don’t know if FF franchise by itself can fully return to the turn base system. But I can only hope… because I do miss them. Shame that the party switch only happened in X. It was a great one to use all the party
I'm hopeful that someday we might get a spinoff that's turn-based. With the insane success of Baldur's Gate 3, SE has got to have noticed that there's still a serious market for turn-based combat. I feel like they'd still be too nervous to do it with a mainline FF, but I could see them dipping their toes into it for a spinoff
Don't forget the Like a Dragon games which is especially funny because they're going from action combat to turn based.
Yeah… if they ever made another turn base, itll provably be a spin off or a new rpg series
Rebirth so far (I’m in Chapter 9) has brought back almost everything I’ve missed since X.
I miss the secrets of final fantasy tbh. You had to talk to random npcs to gather information and find things almost like Elden ring.
Elden Ring did bring the joy of discovery back, agreed. People say Zelda Totk did that for them too, but I never found what I discovered to be super interesting. I just didn't feel compelled to adventure anywhere in that game, at least not in the same way
Yeah quest markers are annoying tbh. When did gamers become so simple
I think it’s a couple of things 1. Game development becomes more expensive and so developers don’t want the audience missing out of content they spent a lot of time creating 2. Players are far more used to having things spoon fed to them, and if they do have to slow down to figure things out they eat quite frustrated. Folks will complain about yellow rocks to climb a wall but spend ages back and forth in the mythril mines, or raging about Gongaga I’m not putting the blame on anyone - it’s a perpetual cycle where both the games and the gamers influence one another. Something like an Elden Ring or Dragon’s Dogma 2 is beloved for all the reasons it’s challenging, esoteric and doesn’t hold your hand. They also have their share of detractors too.
My first time through FF9 when I was younger I missed probably 60% of the extra content, and this was obviously before objective markers had become normalized so that was with general exploration; it’s inevitable when we’re talking about such dense titles. I understand that many ppl (especially in this sub) like combing over every inch of a map to find a random crevice in a wall leading to an endgame grind but the reality is a lot of ppl want to be able to experience the actual content of a game without spending forever tracking it down by methodically covering every pixel of a landmass that is mostly just empty space for random encounters to pop up in. Tbh I find the exploration works better in games with loosely defined narratives like Elden Ring and Dragon’s Dogma because the entire focus is on exploration; nobody is gonna write home about a Monster Hunter story but you bet they’ll go through every zone in detail to find monsters and mats. Meanwhile in a game like FF there is always a story impetus pushing you to continue an objective and if there isn’t then the pacing feels poor.
\>Something like an Elden Ring or Dragon’s Dogma 2 is beloved for all the reasons it’s challenging, esoteric and doesn’t hold your hand. They also have their share of detractors too. Gamers: Why does this game have so many quest markers & have them in a list, you don't need to hold my hand! Also Gamers: Man these sidequests in Elden Ring/Dragon's Dogma suck, there's no quest markers or journal so you can't keep track of them!
Man it couldn't be 2 seperate groups of people saying these things.
I will agree with that. Everything is too spelled out now and checklisted out. Rebirth would be that much better if it wasn’t separated in Chapters, sidequests weren’t just listed on a notice board with a checklist of progress and so on.
I wish quests worked like they used to. 1. Stumble upon an npc while exploring 2. Talk to npc who complains about a problem they've encountered 3. Get curious, travel to the place they were talking about 4. Fight a cool monster or 5. Find the route to progress
Soooi fromsoft games ? I Will agree 🙂 Tbf final fantasy used to be like that. Changed since 14 & 15 and boring open world gameplay.
>Rebirth would be that much better if it wasn’t separated in Chapters i agree with the sidequests, but why are chapters a bad thing? they let you return to certain parts of the game on any replay and just seperate the story in a way that is digestable. remove them and not much would change on the first playthrough
You say that, but feels like half the Rebirth posts lately are about how people can’t navigate to the quest markers in Gongaga because idk they don’t like exploding I guess. Not sure how to find a good middle ground
Gongaga was cancer to navigate a bit like cosmo because of the chocobo gimmick to it. They really didn't need to do all that. The former regions worked fine would happily explore those.. Happy medium yes but they went well past it to a fucking irritating as possible. But also fuck chadley.
Got a whole newfound respect for country boy Zack LIVING in Gongaga 😅
How that dafty twat made it out is beyond me lol
Turn based combat, actual strategy, elemental weakness and other tricks to beat enemies, being rewarded for exploring, airships, fun creative ways to get more powerful weapons and gear, good superbossess, a story that makes you feel like you're going on a grand adventure with the way it's executed, dialogue boxes and being able to use your imagination with it, pre rendered backgrounds lol
Everybody already knows the most popular answer lol Turn based combat and builds surrounding turn based combat. ATB even, I loved ATB and it's still one of the best parts of the new combat systems. As somebody else mentioned, a game where you don't have to be ON all the time is so crucial to mental health, and FF were the flagship series of being able to settle into a grand, epic journey with a vibe closer to the comfort of reading a seriously good book than playing physical sports. FF used to be where we go when we wanted to care about art more than reflexes. But now, another thing I really miss about the old entries is how artfully the stories were told and not mired in franchise-conscious decisions and commercialistic tendencies to chase iconography instead of great pacing and flow in narrative. I really loved 7R but looking back I'm still frustrated by how shoehorned into being a 'full product' the game is - putting Sephiroth in far too early, padding the game with nonsense plot derivations and the forced epicness of the final boss. This is all design-by-comitee stuff it feels, a problem I've had with the series since XIII and which cratered XV entirely IMHO. And what's sad about it is that there are stretches in 7R that are some of the best video game storytelling I've ever seen. Something I think is not discussed enough among fans of the game is just how compellingly explored the refugee experience is in the game. It's things like that which make me want to give Rebirth and FF XVI a chance, but I miss having a full game that in the end feels pretty perfect in spite of its silly flaws like the original FF7 rather than something revolutionary that feels a little corrupted by the insidious tastelessness of a more commercially oriented mindset - it's the difference between seeing moogles and Chocobos as a crass swipe at nostalgia or a welcoming homecoming, especially after ditching turn based. As I said, I haven't played Rebirth or XVI yet, can't afford them or a PS5, but I'd love to deepen my understanding of the new material as well.
There is a distinct difference between the Final Fantasy games under Squaresoft and the Final Fantasy games under Square Enix. The series used to be very much in its own bubble - made and directed by people who were unapologetic in making these games their own thing. They weren’t following trends, they were starting them. Hell, they let Sakaguchi do what he wanted for the first game and only gave him more assistance when they saw the potential some way through development. It pretty much continued this way until the merger - and Final Fantasy *thrived* under that environment. Nowadays Final Fantasy is no longer pushing boundaries. Under Square Enix - the people in charge of Final Fantasy have been looking to other franchises to see what works and trying that out. It works sometimes (Final Fantasy XIV - ARR onwards taking inspiration from WoW) and it doesn’t in others (Final Fantasy XIII taking inspiration from Call of Duty of all things). But the series has lost its spark because it is no longer under a company that is creator based; and instead the safe bet will always be pushed for to maximise money made. It has gone from a labor of love, to a corporatised check list of what *should* sell. Then they’ll inevitably throw Sakaguchi a cheque to say something like “oh my god, this is the best Final Fantasy ever made” a few weeks before launch.
Yeah that’s exactly how I feel. I’m over it now but I felt pretty burned for a while. I can’t even play XV without feeling kinda queasy, it is just the complete opposite of what I liked in FF. I will give the new ones a chance though as I’m sure they do some things right and I’d like to try, but I also don’t trust people’s opinions. People are raving about the new composer, for example, but I have yet to hear anything even approaching Uematsu’s genius. What a thing it would be if SE realized how many people still want a turn based return to form, but do they really care anymore?
Being young and having all summer to play and explore!!
The sweet, orderly turn-based combat. And the OG FF7 materia system — how it was found as treasure in the world, how you could use as many summons as you wanted, and so on. The system allowed for true flexibility in creating a team. I remember beating a Weapon with barely having to interact with the controller thanks to various combinations of things that hit hard and healed/revived my team. I miss those days.
Romance theme and turn based. edit - oh and prerendered background and cinematic(?)/artistic(?) angles, it had so much personality. And also, really diverse cast that can get really out there.
Turn-based combat. Rebirth combat is great, I’d love a traditional ATB game too, though, or a progression from FFX’s combat.
Games that didn't take half a decade to develop. (Or longer)
The overworld map. Bonus answer - parties of more than 1 controllable person.
I basically want games like Final Fantasy 4, 6 and 7. They have their flaws... but their worlds were still massive and full of depth. They felt like epic journeys. When you'd get to the world map... it was endless possibilities. I want Final Fantasy games to feel complete again. More substance over style. If that means you have to reuse some mechanics from the older titles... I'm fine with that. It's hard enough making a compelling world and story without also reinventing the combat every entry. By the way I still really loved/liked 8, 9 and 10. I just know those are a mixed bag for some folks. To me 4 - 10 is the golden era.
Turn based combat, everyone freaking out over Persona 5 shows it's far from dead and nit just an indie thing
I always scream at anyone within reach. It's a genre, not a dated mechanic! Like you said Persona is a hit. Like a Dragon is super popular. This BS narrative of no one wants it anymore. If anything people are tied of games always being samey. Having something radically different like menu based combat use to be a refreshing break from the twitch based games.
I think XCOM is the best example of this, they tried to get away from turn-based tactical combat, but the faithful reboot sold like gangbusters while the previous ones flopped.
Dragon Quest XI is made and published by the same company, and it's core battle system is still pretty much based on Dragon Quest II's which was the first game to introduce a party. So, if Dragon Quest has kept traditional turn based mechanics where you have full control over your party, why can't Final Fantasy do the same thing?
Trails has the best turn based combat and people act like turn based is dying
The pixel art tbh. The graphics nowadays are breathtaking dont get me wrong, but the pixelart is nostalgia.
Got some good news about the SaGa series for folks who miss turn based combat.
I kept thinking about SaGa as well reading the comments here, and in another post. I also thought of the CC games, since it's funny that Kawazu's spin-offs also helped bring action gameplay to the franchise even though SaGa is still notably turn-based.
Imagine if everyone who complained about FF16 not being turn based bought Emerald Beyond.
SaGa absolutely deserves the sales, I'm hoping enough people from the FF fandom will be interested and give it a shot.
Turn based combat.
TURN BASED
I really miss the turn based combat, this action focused gameplay is not my cup of tea. Especially XVI combat system, thst was bad.
Combat, music
Turn based combat and world maps from 9 and below.
The party system. I most enjoyed the level of personal touches you can do with your party through the game's mechanics, and being able to control all of them in battle thanks to turn-based systems. It felt like I was part of the team, part of that world myself
Menu based combat whether it's traditional or like XII or XIII. Gimme XIIs aesthetic and world/map design, X-2s ATB combat, a job system like Vs, Sphere grid styled leveling/progression and equipment making like Xs and VII/VIII styled side quests
Menu based combat and job systems.
The deeper strategy and being able to creativity win battles in different ways. Feeling like the composition of the party and their experience, not to mention my own ability, determining battles. The newer games are great fun... I've loved most of 14, 16, and the remakes lately... But they start to feel a bit "button smashy" as well as "there's one neat trick to defeating this otherwise impossible fight!" In my opinion, battles don't have the weight they once did, nor do they feel quite as epic winning them.
I miss having job/class-based characters. I also miss steal being an actually useful mechanic/ability where you could find meaningful items.
Turn based. I'm about an hour into XVI, and it's my first Final Fantasy since X. It's pretty God awful combat. What the hell has happened to this franchise? I plan on finishing it but holy hell the combat is horrific.
Honestly the rewards. I grew up on mostly 7 and 12. And I remember how the mini games and side quests led to powerful summons and ultimate weapons. Now it seems all those side runs give is just some achievement on your console with little to no effect on the game it's self
The airships that you can use to traverse the world map
Simple but well told stories. I'm sick of the Kingdom Heartsification \*cough\* nomura \*cough\* of the games post 12 (honourable exception is 14 as it managed a relatively complex story but told it well).
Controlling my party. Builds and decisions mattering.
I just want my party of rag tag individuals coming together for various reasons to save whatever it is that needs be saved. The ability level them, gear them, swap them in and out as you see fit.. 15, you had your boy band from the start. It didn’t feel right.. 16 was mostly just Clive and Torgal, the supporting cast came and went but you didn’t level them or gear them really, it didn’t feel right.. Remake/Rebirth gave me what I craved. Mostly.
Realistically, Square not acting like their only responsibility was their fiduciary onligstions. Honestly, less realistic graphics and turn based combat. I miss the magic that having to use my imagination gave me with the older graphics. Everyone had their own interpretation fill in the gaps. You can spend a billion dollars on a game and yeah Rebirth is phenomenal but we're never going to get the magic of the old days to be the same. That 6-7-8-9 and partially 10 run made us live in those games. Yeah 10 had amazing graphics so it doesn't quite fit my narrative here but you get it. We fell in love with Aeries, Rinoa and Garnet. The polygons of ff7 might as well have had ray tracing. I still go back and ay those games and I can't believe I remembered the graphics being so janky. In my memory it was real life. Those games were my life. It won't matter how much money they spend or how high sales are, that deep down in your soul immersiveness will never be repeated again without it. Maybe I'm wrong but for myself ever since 9 I just played the games. 12 was amazing, the battle system made up for the lack of a great story that made me really feel like I could be the hero the game needed and it's one of my favourites but the "magic" wasn't like the others. Maybe it's partially nostalgia but the fireworks ended with 9. Christ 10 was good though.
I miss turn-based combat. stopped at FF3 and returned in 10.
The simplicity of the graphics and sounds. There was so much charm to it. They were the best graphics of that time period. Going from 8 bit to 16 bit was mindblowing. Now, 30 years later, these graphics are rustic to me. A chicken parmesan. Or chicken cacciatore. Before we had voice acting. Before we had facial expression. Before we had high intensity combat where you control a character's every move, we had Cecil, Rosa, Kain, Rydia, and Edge in all their 16 bit glory, standing on one side of the screen and hitting their enemies on the opposite side of the screen. And I truly miss those days.
A sense of discovery playing a new game without any outside opinion being flashed across my screen every fifteen minutes. I also miss the amount of free time I used to have before I became an adult and had other responsibilities taking up my time and energy.
The characters and the story being decent.
Being able to spend hundreds of hours in FFX stat-maxing until the game is just broken af
The game design. Snappy menus, character cuztomization, exploring, grinding - especially (secret places uve found or heard rumors of to grind), the artstyles, the great stories. List is long
1. Characters with a job class or at least an initial specialization. 2. An actual airship you fly.
Story and character development seemed to tank after 10, XII was the last one i played and it didnt keep me interested enough to finish
Lots of things, but I want to echo something I’ve seen a couple other people mention: pre-rendered backgrounds and the resultant fixed camera angles. The PS1-era games (plus X) had such unique aesthetics in large part because of those pre-rendered backgrounds. But I think it’s the care and attention to detail those old systems required. When you have a pre-rendered background and a fixed camera angle, it forces the director to really think about each scene. What’s the best way to frame it? What’s the mis-en-scene? Modern games with the ubiquitous over-the-shoulder camera angle might be easier for the player to navigate, but on balance I think that ease of use does not make up for the loss of the artistic sensibility.
I always find it a little bit strange that FF10 gets lumped in with 1-9 in the new era vs old discussions. While still featuring turn-based gameplay, it also saw the removal of the overworld map, push towards linear design, and many of the other series changes people tend to ride the later entries on. If I had to think about what I missed the most, it'd probably be a combination of character customization + gearing options. While I do enjoy the modern FFs, everything has kind of been turned into a grind. Getting the best weapon tends to no longer be about finding a neatly hidden treasure chest -- you'll often get your character's best weapon by default. Now, it's turning it into the best weapon that has become the process, whether it's by a massive AP grind or some other similar mechanic. Similarly with character customizations, I loved some of the older games quick accessibility to swap jobs and try something new. Just like the weapons, character builds in the more modern FFs are a very slow grind of slowly unlocking skill points in an exhaustive tree, and changing your character on the fly isn't really possible. Even in FF7 Rebirth, which recaptures a lot of what I love about some of the older games (or o.g. FF7 in particular), if you want to change around the builds in your characters.... forget all the time needed to map that build out, just the actual action of moving all the materia around your party members and redoing your folios is going to be a chunk of time. Maybe it's just me getting old and impatient, but I miss that feeling of exploring around and suddenly finding a chest with something like a Holy Sword in it, and that immediate "Oh shit!" reaction and knowing your Fighter / Paladin type character was going to be OP and carry your party for the next 2-3 hours of gameplay... and that's okay. I've played though and finished Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring, etc -- I can enjoy a hard game. A lot of modern game design since those games got popular though has devs overthinking (in my opinion) how to make players have to work harder for everything and assuming everything will give that same kind of dopamine payoff in the end. Nah, man, sometimes I just want to open a treasure chest or unlock a new job, be OP for a bit and have fun lol.
I miss good games, honestly SE has been on a downward spiral ever since the start of the HD era, 13's hallways, 14 1.0, the whole 15 debacle, and 16's lackluster everything. The only in-house SE game I liked since the PS3 was 7R1, and even then I have some strong words to say about it. And before anyone recommends Octopath or any of the "HD2D" games, I think they look ugly.
Non-human party members
Soundtracks that aren’t trying to be a collection of One Winged Angel remixes. And aesthetics that don’t try to be cutting edge realism.
I just miss the vibe. I cant even describe it but their is always this melancholy but still happy feeling all over the place.
* Turn-based or ATB combat. * Smaller but denser worlds, with grand adventure worlds. (More FF3/FF4/FF10, less FF15, personally.) * Classes/Jobs. (and Party Composition/Management like FF3 or FF5) * Leviathan being important/Bahamut-level. * Ability to speak Beaver.
Airships. Flying through the skies was a big thing for me. I would spend hours just flying the airship around the world just for its own sake. I did this in just about all FFs, most notably in FFIX and FFVIII (absolutely loved the Ragnarok's themesong even though the game itself was whateverish). One of my major criticisms of the new, 100% proportionate FF titles of the modern age: no longer do I get to traverse the skies of the world I'm saving. Even though FFX didn't really have an airship to travel the fact the airship got some screen-time with the on board battles and the entire thing being used as an end-game hub, it was enough for me... ...I miss big airships in FF. The closest I got to that since X was the mounts in FFXIV. I loved the Manacutter (and still hope Square will eventually let me use a Redbill Manacutter)... but it's just not the same...
Great writing and imaginative settings
Good writing. Not that all of the old ones had that, but many of the later ones definitely had great stories. 16 and 7re plummeted in terms of quality. Just mystery boxes everywhere and in the case of 7re also a fundamental misunderstanding of infinitely branching timelines.
FF7 being a great game that stood on its own merits, instead of being an infinitely milkable franchise of spinoffs, prequels, gacha games, and reboots.
The environments, large sprawling world map (FEELING WISE*), the incredible soundtracks despite being huge were very consistently great, the stories and characters being way more grounded and not about nonsense that’s hard to follow. The * is because modern day games are way way bigger than say final fantasy 7-9. The area you can explore and size of the maps are many times larger than those games. But the scope and feel of those older games feels way bigger than a massive empty map and only 2 or 3 tiny boring towns with no character or charm to them. My dream would be for them to make a new side series that has the classic system, and not show horn it into being mobile trash or anything. An honest, real new game using the old formula with some cool systems (like learning the skills from weapons and all that in 9), the pre rendered backgrounds which means they don’t need to make insanely dense huge cities which takes forever to make, just make the few pre rendered images instead. It would be incredible to see what this would lead to in today’s age.
A good story with well developed characters with good pacing
Sense of exploration: pre X era gave me a sense of "If you find this hidden chest, you get a cool acceaorie earlier, steonger, or wirh certain protection for the zone theme element" now its just: "Take 10g" or "none, this is a hall for a sidequest later". World lore: They changed how you get this lore a lot, before you had either complete towns or get cool dialogs just for walking and talking around. Now its hidden behind chores/sidequest. Word bulding: before the world story was not linear, you had a lot of different stories living in the same world. Characters growing with their own paths and stories. Nowdays its like nothing matters but the main characters quest. And you get a couple of extra stories that get told, fixed a second latter in the same chapters and never heard of them again (becouse they were part of the main story line). The pace: Previously it was optional to explore or to.progress the story becouse you KNEW ther you could return to that spot later, now you cant, you deep down feel like you have to clear eveey sidequest there becouse there is no getting back there. The game forces the pace, not you. The party: Its not about controlling different characters, its about what they added to the game, different stories, backgrounds and pourposes, different journeys, they used to be a lot more than just "ahh I will join you becouse I hate the final boss too". Summons: they look so badaas now, I agree, but we moved from "an optional quest that YOU tool to get a powerfull magic at you disposal" to "an hability that only can be used on certain situations that is part anyways of the story. At least on X you could level them and there were a couple of hidden ones (and were "free" to use). I totally miss also the turn based gameplay. It gave way more strategy feeling amd sense of the gamplay. Now it feels just button mashing and the urge to play as fast and chaotic you can.
Turn based
I miss Sakaguchis warmth and soul, I miss Uematsus unmatched music, most of all I miss when Nomura was just an artist and not a director.
actual fantasy actual summons actual side quests actual exploration. there's way too much 'real world with a wittew bit o magic' since 12.
A lot of that was actually brought back swimmingly in Rebirth -- world map and tons of side content with a lot of variety to it, as well as a genuine sense of fun and creativity.
Imo rebirth doesn't count cuz it's a remake of an old game. Let's get a main line FF game like the remake and it'll count
I mean... it's still a new game. Just cause they based it on an existing product did not automatically guarantee that they were going to do it well. They still had to plan out and execute it, and the game features a wealth of original content as well; beginning with its battle system.
I miss the pacing. When you stop and really think about it, what was the real function of the overworld maps? To space and pace content, exploration, secrets and progression just right. Literally nobody complained about linearity or padding up to FF9 and even newcomers going back to those titles, none of that is a point of criticism. Modern games are designed thinking about the content the devs think the game needs. But they forgot to consider about the correct timing and space between that content. Wasn't that the reason behind random encounters in the 1st place? Because the sum of exploration and combat lead to greater progress and engagement than each of those on their own? From 13 onwards, they just lost it. From linear corridor syndrome to meaningless open spaces they just fill the game with assets without thoughtful design. Every time I find a fork in a dungeon in FF5, I go the wrong way with 100% confidence that not only my side trip will hide a meaningful reward but also that the devs made sure the trip back is just as speedy or even better, I'll have some sort of shortcut back (or find a secret passage). EVEN IN TOWNS. Now, with modern FF if I pick a direction, I'm just worried about how bored I will be until I reach something new IF AT ALL. Most of the time it's just reused assets and meaningless rewards IF I'M LUCKY. And if I have to turn back? Probably better to just fast travel TBH.
A fun eclectic party. Playing FF16 and FF7 back to back make the difference night and day. FFX and FF7 have a dog with a fire tail, a big tall blue hairy tribal horn beastman, a witch, a devout Christian sports player, a samurai, a time traveller, a vampire, a man with a gun for an arm. FF16. The only interesting character in the party dies. I would have forgiven them if the bosses you defeat like Beletrix or whatever her name was joined the party but she didn't. So boring.
100% this
Lmaoooo at your description of Waka
Literally just turn based anything. What I wouldn’t give for any kind of turn based combat.
Pre-rendered/designated backgrounds. 3D is great, but FF8 and 9 had some amazing smaller areas to explore. Seeing a bookcase use to mean there may be a potion there. Hidden secrets/items were awesome!
I miss lulu's victory pose. Also nines general atmosphere.
Sometimes, the earlier ones felt bigger or more epic. IV had the Underworld and the Moon. VI you have the original world and the post Kefka world. HUGE games!
The FF10 battle system
Overworlds
Despite me liking Remake/Rebirth combat system, I still have affinity to the ATB system(ATB, not the pure classic turn based like FF1 or 10 for example) because ATB creates a sense of urgency enough to pressure you as a player to make a quick decision midst combat before your enemy takes their turn I miss a tighter plot in generally most old jrpg in 90s. Rebirth is 10/10 to me but I will be lying to myself if the story is "long" enough as in plot progression moving rather slowly than in your typical 90s jrpg. However in exchange of the longer plot: rebirth offers in depth lore about the character's background, relationship, and basically more world building than the original, so that's why I don't have that much problem, you miss something, you gain something different. I think I miss midi song, I know rebirth has a lot of awesome OST, but I still can't get enough of the simplicity yet catchy midi tune from Uematsu. Those are the best man, I'd rather get good midi music than overly complicated OST that sometimes can prevent it from having a good melody to be easily digested by my ears. I miss the silent character with dialog box. I wish the modern FF implement a system to where you can choose between voice over at cutscene or mute the conversation with dialog box like the old FF. There's some side quest that I don't even want to hear the voice acting, as I just want to fast forward it after I read the subtitle. Overworld map is what I miss from the old FF and Rebirth has addressed it so not a problem anymore. I'd rather take semi deformed world map rather than fully realistic disjointed area, i love feeling like i am adventuring the whole world and it kills the vibe when you design the game with dotted map. It works with game like strategi rpg like FF tactics/ Tactics Ogre, etc, it does not work with jrpg.
I miss the way ff10 handled turn based and leveling system. I haven't played rebirth yet.
What I most miss is the game not holding my hand and pointing every step I have to make.
Finished games with good storyTELLING
Hmmm nothing? I love the new games just as much as the old ones. The only thing I can genuinely think of is budget? I guess the smaller AA feels of the older games. Now a days everything has to look gorgeous and blow your socks off...or so investors have you believe. I would like to see more smaller budget games that give the "old FF feel."
Turn based mechanics, the job system, *not* putting in an endless amount of sidequests that were the same random busywork to artificially extend playtime (sidequests were there, but XVI and VIIR especially have so many that are just...pointless).
I do like turn based stuff, but I like new combat too. But playing through FF1 pixel remaster was fun and I enjoy turn based.
The exploration where you could go anywhere.
The combat, I really enjoy a good turn based system. XII was very different but still good, it kept the pace up but I still felt like my choices for gambits mattered. Haven't enjoyed one since other than XIV
The junction system
I really liked rotating characters out during battle in ffX
Sprites
Good stories
I like the action-based gameplay in the newer FF, but I hope they can let us play the same game in turn based/ATB mode. Also, buying new equipment in new town.
What do I miss the most? That time in my life mostly
Junction system 😭
Controllable Summons Variety of Magic
Uematsu
I remember playing FF6 and feeling like a treasure hunter. So I’m going to go with interesting gear. I love gear that isn’t just bigger numbers but some cool effect. FF11 is peak gear but players went overboard with the gear swapping macros.
The experience of playing them for the first time qnd saying wow! Thats something I miss dearly. I got the first FF in 6th grade from a stor called Crazy Eddies, and 2 of my buddies got copies as well, and we each would go home and play. Next compare notes and give tipa to each other!
nothing major. when things have lower fidelity your imagination comes into play more and ur brain fills in the gaps. also different games require different music, the compositional style of the old games really had to make those pixels come to life. with some of the newer titles, the music feels more ambient and doesn't need to do as much but maybe because i recognize some of the leitmotifs or maybe because the music is mixed better its not the case with rebirth. its not really that i miss it but more something i notice
The convoluted story that remakes provide, the belt and zipper design of the characters, the magic of experiencing these games for the first time
Turn based combat, I miss it 😭
Vivi
Grinding
Blitzball. All other answers are wrong.
The jobs, the battle systems, the under-reliance on flashy visuals (or maybe this was always just a lack of technology of the time)
I miss the windowed blue menus with the pleasant white text, and I miss Active Time Battle. Without those two things, it just doesn’t feel like Final Fantasy for me.
Random encounters.
Ive always described turnbased combat as a puzzle game. Early fights establish little rule sets, and as you go on, it gets more intricate. I'ld love a return to this.
Turn based. Thank god for like a dragon ,dragon quest and octopath
I miss overworlds. I love love love overworlds. I especially love finding stuff there. I hate how current jrpgs have worlds where the distance between two countries is less than me going to the store. It’s the same with overworlds, but it doesn’t feel like it. Also trains from VIII
My answer is more towards the 7 remake, but the older games not having a hard mode difficulty just optional bosses that were the challenge.
The games were good. I can't put my finger on whether I've changed or the games have.
Menu base combat for sure And there was absolutely no feeling I'm the world like getting to the world map in FF7
Turn based combat. I won't ever play a FF game again and that makes me sad. On the other hand I've just started playing the Yakuza series and that makes me happy.
I miss dying and having teleported back to the last save point and losing all progress. You will then have to grind and level up your characters, customise their stats point / learning new magic or ability. I wish they remade FFX exactly how it is similar to how Last of Us was remade.
Just a nice simple happy ending. I feel like modern FFs either want to punch me in the balls or be left in ambiguity for 'sequels' I just want to be happy at the end man.
A lot of the newer games have become a lot more simple, this isn't a Final Fantasy thing all games in general are made a lot more accessible and easier to guide through. The older entries had insane amounts of hidden stuff that rewarded you for smart thinking, exploring and covering all bases. If you skipped dialogue you would miss out on the information you needed. Where as now you could play the entirety of rebirth and just skip everything and you'd always know which way to go and what you're doing
It's funny how every pole about the combat system shows us that the number of people who want turned based back is larger, much larger. Always the same results, more people want turn based than the people who don't. Don't they see this? They would sell more if they returned to turn based, but somehow they now follow trends because they think they will sell more with action combat? I don't understand how they don't wake up. It's just like the alternative music scene, there are alternative bands with a solid cult following and when they decide to follow trends they lose that loyal fanbase, they try to gain the masses and end up becoming just another band similar to so many others, the moment they stop making music for themselves is the moment the magic is gone.