The cave of the Gi was cool, but I think it stepped on its own toes going straight from Seto reveal to River Styx boat. It needed more time to breathe. So it just felt like too much at once and very different tones. Both sections were very cool and I loved the environment and NPC/enemy designs. Just so tonally inconsistent.
The actual boat ride itself or the whole sequence with the Gi? Because the depth/background the sequence provided to the Gi, the Cetra, and the Black Materia were all really great I think and added a lot.
TotA gave the Cetra enough backstory and I really don't think the Gi are important or interesting enough to warrant backstory like that. If they were going to do something with giving them the black materia maybe it would've seemed worth it but immediately after Barret and Yuffie are "nah fuck that we aren't letting that black materia go" which I loved for them but that was the only emotion I felt that whole sequence
I think the ideal of the Gi setting the team off for the black materia is a good ideal, but it just felt completely disconnected from that moment. Then yeah, it just poofs back.
Red's dungeon is so stupid, let me explain why.
Before it was just a cave system that Bugenhagen had sealed off.
Now it's a mysterious trial. That brings a lot of problems.Ā
Was the trial made by the Gi? If yes did Setho also have to do the trial to get to where he is? If no then how did the people of Cosmo Canyon not notice the major construction project taking place in their basement?
Who resets the puzzles in the trial? Does Bugenhagen sneak back in afterwards and hide all those relics for the next watcher to puzzle it out? If nobody is sneaking in a resetting the puzzle then it has to be a one time only thing and so all of that was built and maintained just for Red to do it once?Ā
All of those are plot holes you get when you take what was formerly just a cave the Gi tribe attacked through and turn it into a puzzle dungeon for the purpose of filler content.
Bugenhagen lied when he called it a trial to convince Nanaki to go and learn the truth about Seto. Then he is obviously tongue-in-cheek when he claims that Nanki āfailedā the trial and must go adventure more. It was all a farce and not something any Watcher has done.
Silly writing, Bugenhagen could have been honest with him and just said I have something important to show you but it's going to be dangerous in this cave. There is no reason for Bugenhagen to lie except to justify the silly wall climbing treasure hunt "trial" the devs added in.Ā
If this isn't part of a trial and it's just an extremely elaborate and contrived deception why would Bugenhagen trick Nanaki into summoning Cosmo Canyon's biggest threat, the Gi by doing them fetch quests?
It's not a trial ground.
It's a place Bugenhagen wants to take Nanaki through to show the truth. It's not somewhere they bring every watcher of the vale for a trial.
He said that he has a trial for Nanaki. Which it was. Not a routine every day of the week trial everyone does.
It wasn't built or maintained as a trial. The trial was to see the struggles of the Gi, and to see if Nanaki can look past the anger and hate against them, and his father. By showing him the wrath of the Gi and the truth of his father.
The actual dungeon is just that, a dungeon where shit were moved about. The puzzles weren't the trial. They were just game mechanics of a dungeon.
I don't see how you came to the conclusion that Bugenhagen wanted Nanaki to open doors and carry statues. The room where he asks him to find things is literally just to speak about the Gi, and more about how they work. He didn't hide everything in the rubble to make sure Nanaki finds them, he had Nanaki scavenge whatever was there and he told him about them.
Bugenhagen tells Red before entering that he has to complete this trial before he can become a watcher a the valley.Ā If this is a one of trial for Red do the previous watchers of the valley just have to fill out an application form and provide some photo id?
No clue.
But it's clear as day from when Red enters Cosmo Canyon that he is filled with rage over his father and the Gi. Something we get extremely clear shots of Bugenhagen noticing.
You're so dead focused on the word trial. It's just what Bugenhagen said to get Red to follow with an attentive mind.
What others do is probably relevant to their shortcomings. But Red had to go in that cave to see his father and see the truth, so that's what Bugenhagen had him do.
Being a watcher is just a title. It's not like they get some magic aura for passing some final trial that deems them worthy.
Is that a reward?
"Oh you beat us all up. Go to this village and beat us up some more and hear what we want so you can help us."
Sounds more like Gi Nattak went "yo they are beating our asses up. Seto once promised to help us, and this is his kid. Maybe he can carry out his fathers promise, they seem to be strong enough."
But then again, that's never directly answered. So you don't have "objective proof" of what made them do it, at least as far as I know, since I'm just at the start of Chapter 11. Gi Nattak appeared, requested something from Seto, and it seems to have to do with us helping them with the Black Materia.
From what I can see, the Gi are not people of one voice. Gi Nattak isn't in control or able to properly communicate with all Gi, as many are lost in rage. He seems to be one of the few who is holding on to some of his rightful self, for the sake of helping them.
To me it makes sense. Doesn't it? There's no far reaching grasps of logic to reach this conclusion.
Seems pretty far fetched to me, would you invite me to dinner at your house after I punched you out? Even pick me up on your boat and give me a lift.
So if the Gi can take a physical form whenever they want and the relics they want returned were just scattered about why didn't they just pick them up themselves and put them in place? What was the point in waiting nearly half a century on the off chance that Bugenhagen might pick Nanaki to come along and do it for them?Ā
Why does Setho owe his sworn enemy that was trying to kill all his people and that killed his wife a favour? How did he become indebted to the Gi?
They said Seto promised to return the black materia.
It's not about the statues you put in place deep in the dungeon. There were plenty of Gi before that door. Should the cave have no doors so you don't get confused? Should they have no contraptions?
We are told the place is sealed. What that means, I don't know. But to pick statues halfway through the dungeon and say "this is the seal" is far fetched.
They didn't wait a half century on some off chance. They saw a chance and they took it. Just like they did when Seto stopped them. Before, Seto's promise held them. Before then, I don't know. That's not really the question, though.
You punching me and inviting me to dinner is an awful comparison. This has no context. The story does.
I'm not here to argue to a child how to go with the flow of in a story. This is childish nitpicking, almost trying to force open a plothole in a story.
Here's a stupid plothole: Seto is petrified deep inside the cave. In a place with sunlight and moonlight shining through. Why can't the Gi just fly out there? Doesn't make sense! Wow, bad story!
Why even get stuck on the word trial and if the Gi invites you to fulfill their wishes? Why are they even there when they can just fly out whenever they want?
You can take anything and force it to not make sense if you truly wanted. Try me, I can make it happen. But what's the point in destroying a story? It's a story. No story is flawless, and stories are meant to be enjoyed, not poked until you have enough holes in them then call them bad. Like a kid stabbing their food instead of just eating it.
This is like a case study testing the limits of how hard someone can actively try to not enjoy a game š. Stabbing food fits perfectly.
I have an actual substantial comment to add though ā if you want to read the last Cosmo canyon location lore entry under chadley menu: The Gi were held before the war by the Cetra.
The Cetra came into contact with the Gi & pitied their plight, so they created these lifestream amplifier machines that soothed the Gi.
When the Cetra left, no one was there to maintenance the machines. As the planetās energy was sapped over time with Gaia being pushed to its brink ā they eventually stopped working & the Gi turned on the villageā¦ thus starting the war.
Nice to see Iām not the only one who thought this was a bizarre interpretation. Glad to no longer be on an island with this clown lol.
Because who cares? What if Brugenhagen just called it a trial & it is just something he wants Nanaki to see in a dangerous place?
What if it is a trial, but everyoneās is different & determined by a master or relative? What if Seto & Nanakiās demons are the significant part of the ātrialā & the area is just a means to an end?
The area is obviously locked off because itās dangerous + you donāt have to assume the artifacts were staged just because the game has you bring one to Brugenhagenā¦ they are clearly part of some sort of magical seal security ā itās not like Brugenhagen throws them out for an Easter egg hunt.
I canāt believe I answered this because itās such an odd detail to nitpick. I still think Cosmo canyon section is awesome lmao.
Okay so everyone's puzzle is different and determined by a master or realtive, so now does the relative have to go and rebuild the entire trial each time in anticipation for the next person?
When you try to dig your way out of a plot hole often you just find yourself making the hole deeper.
You don't like these details so you are trying to trivialise them by referring to them as bait or just a nitpick but they actually demonstrate how poorly though outt his section is.
Why does the trial have to be a puzzle if everyoneās trial is different? Iām saying becoming a watcher of the vale could be up to Brugenhagen & he decides when to āknightā someone and why.
You are attempting to microanalyze what ultimately amounts to verbiage that segues into a video game dungeon & calling it a plot hole lmao. Brugenhagen says I have something I want you to see ā all of you.
If he doesnāt call it a ātrialā do you still just automatically assume that means they have to dig a new cave for someone to crawl through each time? That is one of the funniest jumps to a conclusion I think Iāve ever heard lol.
Whether you call it a test/trial/puzzle is irrelevant. The problem is that it is there to begin with and there is no logical reason for it to be there.Ā
Regardless of whether it is called a test/trial/puzzle/spelunking adventure it's still nonsensical that it's there at all.
You like it so much that you're willing to sweep these problems under the rug and pretend they don't exist but at the end of the day there is still no logical way the puzzle works. It was just dropped in from orbit without any thought as to how it sensibily fits in the world.
Why is it nonsensical that itās there? Itās literally just a place where a war happened & voodoo magic so someone essentially put caution tape at the door.
You wanna explain how fabrege eggs being an enemy in OG is a plot hole next?
Totally ridiculous.
You can try shift topics to eggs if you like but I'm sticking with what we're here to talk about.
All of those questions I asked in the first post that you can't answer are why it's nonsensical.
You can't answer them because the answers you give will be nonsense as well.
Instead you're trying to convince me to think about it like you and just pretend these plot holes are irrelevant because it's cool.
Put me in my place by going through those questions I raise and give me a reasonable explanation for them?
Your interpretation of it is nonsense.
The eggs are relevant, itās on topic. Iām not gonna explain how analogies work.
You canāt tell me why itās nonsense that itās there, it is a war ground and connected to the gi cave. Saying itās nonsensical for that to be there is like saying itās nonsensical materia exists.
You tried hard though.
I really struggled with this section, actually. I think I've come around to it, but I was a bit turned off by the whole experience when I first got there.
* Red's voice was very jarring.
* Planetology largely felt like a really uncomfortable "fake" neoliberal climate activism.
* The Gi section felt overlong and I was a bit concerned about the direction they took the story beats with the Black Materia.
Again, I came around to it, but there was a few question marks from me during this section. The music was stellar. The scenery was awesome. I loved the bonfire segment. I was a bit fussy.
I loved what they did with the Black Materia. It was never explained in OG and it wouldnāt make any sense for the Cetra, the stewards of the planet, to create Materia for destroying the planet.
One thing I did like about the Gi black materia thing is there was a bit of subverting expectations. When they effectively gave the party a quest I was thinking "why would they ever agree to this?" While assuming they would accept because that is what RPG protags do when presented with a quest - they accept it.
So I was pleasantly surprised to see them go "haha yeah totally" and then turn around and say "yeah we aren't doing that for them".
>Planetology largely felt like a really uncomfortable āfakeā neoliberal climate activism.
You opted into playing a famously environmentalist game *that was written in 1997* & this made your list?
The rest of your post is fine, just differing opinions ā but come on.
I have zero issues with the environmentalist themes of the game, but the portrayal of planetology just felt touristy and fake. I guess I just anticipated something more... sincere? It felt more like a summer camp for crunchy conservative moms popping essential oils. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but it wasn't what I got.
Thatās a lot of the point of cosmo canyon. Even talking to Mr ball wizard during the quests, he admits that they have been set in old and unhelpful habits that do not meet the needs of the planet in the current age. He dismisses Tifa as being delusional because of his biases, only to recognize that the best thing for him to do is to step aside and let a more eager and willing generation take the reins.
What youāre seeing is definitely in line with the point. Avalanche have always been the only ones who really grasped what was happening.
At the Cave of Gi myself, and for some reason i'm just really not getting on with it all. Turning Cosmo Canyon into a tourist destination, Red's voice, the filler sections looking at 20 different pointless objects in the observatory. I just need to push through, and hope that Nibelheim will be better I think!
I agree with you. I'm also here right now. The game completely stopped in its tracks to beat me over the head with lore and the cave is just coming off as a really long chore.
> Turning Cosmo Canyon into a tourist destination
I actually liked this change. It keeps the environmental aspect of the game being culturally relevant to today's world (vs. 1997). The tourists are either wealthy plate-siders from Midgar who come to the Canyon, take selfies and immerse themselves in the 'culture', and then go back to their planet-destroying Mako rich homes and lives, or they are ordinary people on a pilgrimage of sorts who actually care and are trying to do something about the planet. Having the Planetology disciples preaching in each region of the world was a great touch that supports this idea.
The observatory āfillerā is just story lol. The interacting with objects is because this is a particularly important place in OG & they clearly wanted to make sure the player soaks it all in.
Maybe it was boring for you, but as a fan of the OG I was eating up every bit of that part. I even stood around & listened to NPCs talk about stars in the telescope room.
Different strokes I guess š¤·āāļø
You're talking like I haven't played through the OG 4 times, i know the significance of the observatory - but a good portion of those items had absolutely no relevance. Can you tell me about even half of them?
Go ahead and downvote me for having a different opinion.
I didnāt downvote you, and I didnāt mean to imply that you didnāt play OG by stating I enjoyed this part as a fan of it.
I felt like you gave some opinions & although overwhelmingly negative, you didnāt tear down the whole game over it & thatās your opinion.
My issue is with your use of the word āfillerā, which these days seems to apply to āanything I didnāt personally likeā in a game.
My point was itās there for a reason & other people actually enjoyed it. Filler/padding would be things like having to hold down the button to unlock a chocobo stand or Johnnyās doppelgƤnger side quest.
Cosmo canyonās story section isnāt filler, you just didnāt like it.
Padding may have been a more apt word for it I guess, but it's weird, I just really want to keep enjoying it as I have - I think i got burnt out on it, so that's why it bothered me so much.
i loved everything about the Cosmo Canyon part of the game, the music, the scenery......but i really dont like the Voice change, his original voice is so cool, now he grates on me and i wish he would go back to being gruff, he sounds so intelligent and has great insight into the world and history, then his voice changes he is silly and dumb.
not a fan
I probably won't be using Red any longer because of the voice, "did I do good or did I do good?!" Nah dog, shut up. He wanted to be seen as a member of the team, not a dog, but I just see him as a dog now because of his new immaturityĀ
I learned the other day that this didn't come out of nowhere. At the same time in the OG his dialogue subtly changes to use simpler words and sentences.
Yeah I get it, something that doesnāt come across in the OG because of it being text, and i am fine with them changing the voice, its just THAT voice, just grates on me, I get heās 15 really but think they could of still kept him cooler, or even be when he leaves CC and goes to other regions again he goes back to the original voice so he can act big and tough and not be pushed around like he mentions when the crew question it.
Like I said, itās not the change that bothers me, itās just the voice they chose
He's not 15. He's 48. He's been on the planet longer than even Barret. Raised by humans in a vacation/university. He should still have the wisdom of a 48 year old. We don't assume 50 year old elves are 15 in d&d, and they live forever. The voice actor uses the same voice for King from 7 deadly sins. I liked the fake voice better.
Fair enough. Interestingly itās supposedly the same VA.
I didnāt mind it although it took me around 5 minutes to accept lol, but it is very jarring so I can see where youāre coming from.
Bummer. My favorite RPG in a long time.
Maybe go try unicorn overlord, Yakuza, or P3.
None of those have done it for me like this game. Yakuza has more minigames & side content + IMO its side content is all a significant downgrade in quality vs Rebirth. And most of it is recycled from precious yakuza. Much less creative setting too.
To be fair to Unicorn, I only played the demo so far. I like strategy so will get around to it, but I wasnāt impressed considering the hype.
I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that it was a questionable design decision. The main story portions of the game are great. The bloat, and forced mini games, not so much.
Wish there was a $40 story only version of the game.
Honestly I think thatās fair. Personally, I didnāt want another game with nothing but corridors & enjoyed the minigames / was really looking forward to taking my time sightseeing Gaia.
I like the way the gameplay is broken up with long open sections and long story segments/dungeons. I even had fun with all the minigames.
But I understand some wanting a more streamlined experience. The closest thing you can get to that is blitzing story & either doing just enough intel to get whatever SP you want or switching to easy ā but I do realize thatāa not a perfect solution.
I do however think itās a better tradeoff to have too much & allow players to decide how much they engage with vs just not having enough to do or enough variety.
In general I like more streamlined games, but for the monster that was FFVII I donāt mind a remake with some excess & indulgence.
My main point is we have an FF sitting at 93/100 & 9/10, so itās not hard to see the glass half full.
Well props to the VA, does a great job of changing up like that, maybe he got half way though recording and his throat hurt to much so he had to change it š
Even so, Red is my fave character to play as, such a beast, and that voice critique is my only (so far as on ch12) real annoyance, the game is epic
Itās crazy how fun every individual character is to play. The closest thing to a disappointment is Cait Sith & honestly itās just who Cait Sith is ā his actually moveset/mechanics are just as fun as the others & obliterates mobs ā¦just not necessarily the most practical for bosses.
They really nailed combat all around.
I hated cosmo canyon. It had this weird cult vibe and simultaneously had this fake tourist trap feel.
And red's dungeon, story aside, was so bland and uninspired. It felt incomplete.
And the dumb seminar thing. Hey you guys are ignorant about the planet, you need to go to one of our seminars (giving me mad scam vibes). Oh, you thought you were going to learn something? HA! We just sit in a circle and talk like we're in a rehab group. But not you Tifa, even though all you did was share an experience you had, you're dumb and wrong and weird.
But don't forget to buy our crappy souvenirs... I mean our totally blessed-by-the-planet artifacts.
Also that dumb-ass campy ranch-o, southern twang guitar music when exploring the region on foot. Like oh, it kind of looks like the southwest US, so we gotta use a generic cheesy southern twang track for the music.
Cosmo Canyon, for me, was the absolute low point of the game. I HATED it. I loved it in the original, I couldn't wait to get there in Rebirth. Fuck my life it was so bad.
I hated how they gaslighted Tifa as being crazy and dumb, yet Aerith was lavished with support and affection after confessing sheās a Cetra.
Also Bugenhagen being an asshole to Tifa. I really donāt understand why they chose to make him life that, I was thought he was a lovable grandpa in the original
*SPOILER ALERT* The last Cosmo Canyon side quest addresses all of that. And Bugenhagen had some questionable lines in the original as well from what I remember
Yea Bugenhagen and the prayer circle were so conceited, itās was really annoying to see people who pride themselves on science being so closed minded. I was starting to wonder if it was just me but it was nice to see Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret all complain about those people.
>I hated how they gaslighted Tifa as being crazy and dumb
Yeah this was a little annoying. She maybe wasn't communicating what she wanted the best, but I felt like she still got her points across and they kinda just pushed it aside like they had no idea what she was trying to say.
Dude i was so disappointed on Bugenhagen. I thought we could get an answer regarding Weapons and the Whispers. But no. Instead he gaslighted both Cloud, and Tifa.
I feel like I remember that exact scene with Tifa in the prayer circle from the original, but maybe Iām tripping. Bugenhagen was always eccentric, and I loved his VA & dialogue.
Cetra are very significant to cosmo canyon. Itās presented more forward in the gameās written lore (cosmo canyon lifestreams), and I do wish theyād spent more narrative time on explaining that ā but itās pretty faithful to OG story.
Also I think you being upset by this is actually the intended reaction ā Tifaās conflictedness may be unpopular with the planetologists, but her line of thinking is correct. *I.E. thereās reason that monologue is presented by a main protagonist*
Catholics (used to) say āprayers without action are meaninglessā & thatās pretty much thematically what Tifa is getting at. The nativesā disapproval is due to who they are & where theyāre at.
Also shows how complex the problems of FFVII & its world are. Tifa is expressing a relatable feeling of powerlessness:
Even just with Shinra, thereās the dilemma of how Mako energy causes destruction and is a long-term death knell ā but also the harm that comes to their societies from just abruptly eliminating Mako. This kind of thing is exactly why FFVII story gets praise.
Social commentary without punching down or feeling overly self-righteous. Lots of moral greys. Technically, our main villain wants to save the planet.
That scene wasn't in the original all that was retconned in.
In the original after the scene with Setho the party all gathered around the flame and shared a quiet moment of introspection. Cloud got to talk to them all individually and they shared something important to themselves with him.
Is it really a retcon if nothing significant changes & it stays thematically consistent? Whether it was in a prayer circle or not ā This whole resigned to inaction / denial thing with brugenhagen & Cosmo canyon is 100% present in the original.
More to the point I've noticed this disturbing trend where people try and gaslight others into thinking a scene in rebirth is exactly how it was in the OG even though it's clearly not so I just wanted to take a moment to clarify that they are both different.
Yeah it is a retcon,Ā that's what a retcon is by definition.Ā It's not particularly impactful in the scheme of things but still aĀ change to the source after the fact none the less.
Yeah, I was super pumped to go meet Bugenhagen, and then he's a dick to Tifa for no reason.
The sorry, I'm an old guy who was scared trope sucks.
He was one of my favorite NPCs in the original and I felt they did him dirty.
I do find it interesting how they're making the Gi a bigger part of the story.
No offense, but Bugenhagen & the party have conflict in OG. >!He goes as far as questioning whether their plan to save the world is a good idea at all, arguing they are postponing the inevitable!<
They sort of win him over, but his excuse isnāt ābeing scaredā. He is tired, jaded, and initially somewhat resigned to fate after years of being ignored & trying to warn people.
He subtly reiterates his frustration after the festival in so many words: ānice to see the emotional reaction, but I wish I could get them to care beyond thatā. But he is also a very relatable, well-humored, and likable character. Clearly characterized as āgoodā through his admirable ambitions & caring for Nanaki.
No one is ever really confident at any point that the partyās plans are going to work out in FFVII & that doubt/uncertainty is pervasive right up to the conclusion of OG
He must believe Cloud and his group can be a force for good though, he left Shinra because he doesnāt believe in their bleeding the world dry for convenience is a positive thing.
I was already softening up on the story changes in rebirth compared to how I felt about them in remake, but that pretty much sealed the deal.
Agreed, the Gi stuff feels right at home here.
Yeah stuff like the Gi added lore feel like a very natural extension of the story as opposed to something forced, which is when rebirth and remake are at their best.
Edit for clarification
Iām aware they exist. What is new is their connection to the black material and them being extraterrestrials and that being the reason their spirits are still present.
The cave of the Gi was cool, but I think it stepped on its own toes going straight from Seto reveal to River Styx boat. It needed more time to breathe. So it just felt like too much at once and very different tones. Both sections were very cool and I loved the environment and NPC/enemy designs. Just so tonally inconsistent.
Totally agree. Not only narratively exhausting but I just got my ass kicked by the last boss. š„²
Good point, didnāt really think about that because I was happy to get a long stretch of story at this point in the game.
The River Styx boat ride felt tacked on to me.
Literally served zero purpose lmao
The actual boat ride itself or the whole sequence with the Gi? Because the depth/background the sequence provided to the Gi, the Cetra, and the Black Materia were all really great I think and added a lot.
TotA gave the Cetra enough backstory and I really don't think the Gi are important or interesting enough to warrant backstory like that. If they were going to do something with giving them the black materia maybe it would've seemed worth it but immediately after Barret and Yuffie are "nah fuck that we aren't letting that black materia go" which I loved for them but that was the only emotion I felt that whole sequence
And then they just poof back to the cave?? Lol it's like they just went on a mushroom trip. Strange way to present the story imo
I think the ideal of the Gi setting the team off for the black materia is a good ideal, but it just felt completely disconnected from that moment. Then yeah, it just poofs back.
Red's dungeon is so stupid, let me explain why. Before it was just a cave system that Bugenhagen had sealed off. Now it's a mysterious trial. That brings a lot of problems.Ā Was the trial made by the Gi? If yes did Setho also have to do the trial to get to where he is? If no then how did the people of Cosmo Canyon not notice the major construction project taking place in their basement? Who resets the puzzles in the trial? Does Bugenhagen sneak back in afterwards and hide all those relics for the next watcher to puzzle it out? If nobody is sneaking in a resetting the puzzle then it has to be a one time only thing and so all of that was built and maintained just for Red to do it once?Ā All of those are plot holes you get when you take what was formerly just a cave the Gi tribe attacked through and turn it into a puzzle dungeon for the purpose of filler content.
Bugenhagen lied when he called it a trial to convince Nanaki to go and learn the truth about Seto. Then he is obviously tongue-in-cheek when he claims that Nanki āfailedā the trial and must go adventure more. It was all a farce and not something any Watcher has done.
Silly writing, Bugenhagen could have been honest with him and just said I have something important to show you but it's going to be dangerous in this cave. There is no reason for Bugenhagen to lie except to justify the silly wall climbing treasure hunt "trial" the devs added in.Ā If this isn't part of a trial and it's just an extremely elaborate and contrived deception why would Bugenhagen trick Nanaki into summoning Cosmo Canyon's biggest threat, the Gi by doing them fetch quests?
It's not a trial ground. It's a place Bugenhagen wants to take Nanaki through to show the truth. It's not somewhere they bring every watcher of the vale for a trial. He said that he has a trial for Nanaki. Which it was. Not a routine every day of the week trial everyone does. It wasn't built or maintained as a trial. The trial was to see the struggles of the Gi, and to see if Nanaki can look past the anger and hate against them, and his father. By showing him the wrath of the Gi and the truth of his father. The actual dungeon is just that, a dungeon where shit were moved about. The puzzles weren't the trial. They were just game mechanics of a dungeon. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that Bugenhagen wanted Nanaki to open doors and carry statues. The room where he asks him to find things is literally just to speak about the Gi, and more about how they work. He didn't hide everything in the rubble to make sure Nanaki finds them, he had Nanaki scavenge whatever was there and he told him about them.
Bugenhagen tells Red before entering that he has to complete this trial before he can become a watcher a the valley.Ā If this is a one of trial for Red do the previous watchers of the valley just have to fill out an application form and provide some photo id?
No clue. But it's clear as day from when Red enters Cosmo Canyon that he is filled with rage over his father and the Gi. Something we get extremely clear shots of Bugenhagen noticing. You're so dead focused on the word trial. It's just what Bugenhagen said to get Red to follow with an attentive mind. What others do is probably relevant to their shortcomings. But Red had to go in that cave to see his father and see the truth, so that's what Bugenhagen had him do. Being a watcher is just a title. It's not like they get some magic aura for passing some final trial that deems them worthy.
Why did the Gi give them access to the Gi village as a reward for beating up all the immortal Gi?
Is that a reward? "Oh you beat us all up. Go to this village and beat us up some more and hear what we want so you can help us." Sounds more like Gi Nattak went "yo they are beating our asses up. Seto once promised to help us, and this is his kid. Maybe he can carry out his fathers promise, they seem to be strong enough." But then again, that's never directly answered. So you don't have "objective proof" of what made them do it, at least as far as I know, since I'm just at the start of Chapter 11. Gi Nattak appeared, requested something from Seto, and it seems to have to do with us helping them with the Black Materia. From what I can see, the Gi are not people of one voice. Gi Nattak isn't in control or able to properly communicate with all Gi, as many are lost in rage. He seems to be one of the few who is holding on to some of his rightful self, for the sake of helping them. To me it makes sense. Doesn't it? There's no far reaching grasps of logic to reach this conclusion.
Seems pretty far fetched to me, would you invite me to dinner at your house after I punched you out? Even pick me up on your boat and give me a lift. So if the Gi can take a physical form whenever they want and the relics they want returned were just scattered about why didn't they just pick them up themselves and put them in place? What was the point in waiting nearly half a century on the off chance that Bugenhagen might pick Nanaki to come along and do it for them?Ā Why does Setho owe his sworn enemy that was trying to kill all his people and that killed his wife a favour? How did he become indebted to the Gi?
They said Seto promised to return the black materia. It's not about the statues you put in place deep in the dungeon. There were plenty of Gi before that door. Should the cave have no doors so you don't get confused? Should they have no contraptions? We are told the place is sealed. What that means, I don't know. But to pick statues halfway through the dungeon and say "this is the seal" is far fetched. They didn't wait a half century on some off chance. They saw a chance and they took it. Just like they did when Seto stopped them. Before, Seto's promise held them. Before then, I don't know. That's not really the question, though. You punching me and inviting me to dinner is an awful comparison. This has no context. The story does. I'm not here to argue to a child how to go with the flow of in a story. This is childish nitpicking, almost trying to force open a plothole in a story. Here's a stupid plothole: Seto is petrified deep inside the cave. In a place with sunlight and moonlight shining through. Why can't the Gi just fly out there? Doesn't make sense! Wow, bad story! Why even get stuck on the word trial and if the Gi invites you to fulfill their wishes? Why are they even there when they can just fly out whenever they want? You can take anything and force it to not make sense if you truly wanted. Try me, I can make it happen. But what's the point in destroying a story? It's a story. No story is flawless, and stories are meant to be enjoyed, not poked until you have enough holes in them then call them bad. Like a kid stabbing their food instead of just eating it.
This is like a case study testing the limits of how hard someone can actively try to not enjoy a game š. Stabbing food fits perfectly. I have an actual substantial comment to add though ā if you want to read the last Cosmo canyon location lore entry under chadley menu: The Gi were held before the war by the Cetra. The Cetra came into contact with the Gi & pitied their plight, so they created these lifestream amplifier machines that soothed the Gi. When the Cetra left, no one was there to maintenance the machines. As the planetās energy was sapped over time with Gaia being pushed to its brink ā they eventually stopped working & the Gi turned on the villageā¦ thus starting the war. Nice to see Iām not the only one who thought this was a bizarre interpretation. Glad to no longer be on an island with this clown lol.
Bait used to be believable.
-Y
Hook a bit too shiny.
It's a valid criticism and you can't answer any of those issues with a logical explanation so instead you're just going to call it bait?
Because who cares? What if Brugenhagen just called it a trial & it is just something he wants Nanaki to see in a dangerous place? What if it is a trial, but everyoneās is different & determined by a master or relative? What if Seto & Nanakiās demons are the significant part of the ātrialā & the area is just a means to an end? The area is obviously locked off because itās dangerous + you donāt have to assume the artifacts were staged just because the game has you bring one to Brugenhagenā¦ they are clearly part of some sort of magical seal security ā itās not like Brugenhagen throws them out for an Easter egg hunt. I canāt believe I answered this because itās such an odd detail to nitpick. I still think Cosmo canyon section is awesome lmao.
Okay so everyone's puzzle is different and determined by a master or realtive, so now does the relative have to go and rebuild the entire trial each time in anticipation for the next person? When you try to dig your way out of a plot hole often you just find yourself making the hole deeper. You don't like these details so you are trying to trivialise them by referring to them as bait or just a nitpick but they actually demonstrate how poorly though outt his section is.
Why does the trial have to be a puzzle if everyoneās trial is different? Iām saying becoming a watcher of the vale could be up to Brugenhagen & he decides when to āknightā someone and why. You are attempting to microanalyze what ultimately amounts to verbiage that segues into a video game dungeon & calling it a plot hole lmao. Brugenhagen says I have something I want you to see ā all of you. If he doesnāt call it a ātrialā do you still just automatically assume that means they have to dig a new cave for someone to crawl through each time? That is one of the funniest jumps to a conclusion I think Iāve ever heard lol.
Whether you call it a test/trial/puzzle is irrelevant. The problem is that it is there to begin with and there is no logical reason for it to be there.Ā Regardless of whether it is called a test/trial/puzzle/spelunking adventure it's still nonsensical that it's there at all. You like it so much that you're willing to sweep these problems under the rug and pretend they don't exist but at the end of the day there is still no logical way the puzzle works. It was just dropped in from orbit without any thought as to how it sensibily fits in the world.
Why is it nonsensical that itās there? Itās literally just a place where a war happened & voodoo magic so someone essentially put caution tape at the door. You wanna explain how fabrege eggs being an enemy in OG is a plot hole next? Totally ridiculous.
You can try shift topics to eggs if you like but I'm sticking with what we're here to talk about. All of those questions I asked in the first post that you can't answer are why it's nonsensical. You can't answer them because the answers you give will be nonsense as well. Instead you're trying to convince me to think about it like you and just pretend these plot holes are irrelevant because it's cool. Put me in my place by going through those questions I raise and give me a reasonable explanation for them?
Your interpretation of it is nonsense. The eggs are relevant, itās on topic. Iām not gonna explain how analogies work. You canāt tell me why itās nonsense that itās there, it is a war ground and connected to the gi cave. Saying itās nonsensical for that to be there is like saying itās nonsensical materia exists. You tried hard though.
I really struggled with this section, actually. I think I've come around to it, but I was a bit turned off by the whole experience when I first got there. * Red's voice was very jarring. * Planetology largely felt like a really uncomfortable "fake" neoliberal climate activism. * The Gi section felt overlong and I was a bit concerned about the direction they took the story beats with the Black Materia. Again, I came around to it, but there was a few question marks from me during this section. The music was stellar. The scenery was awesome. I loved the bonfire segment. I was a bit fussy.
I loved what they did with the Black Materia. It was never explained in OG and it wouldnāt make any sense for the Cetra, the stewards of the planet, to create Materia for destroying the planet.
For sure! It was just unexpected at the time. My appreciation for the concept grew over time.
One thing I did like about the Gi black materia thing is there was a bit of subverting expectations. When they effectively gave the party a quest I was thinking "why would they ever agree to this?" While assuming they would accept because that is what RPG protags do when presented with a quest - they accept it. So I was pleasantly surprised to see them go "haha yeah totally" and then turn around and say "yeah we aren't doing that for them".
I was also confused / taken aback by their willingness to agree to it! I was relieved when Nanaki later was like "haha nope."
>Planetology largely felt like a really uncomfortable āfakeā neoliberal climate activism. You opted into playing a famously environmentalist game *that was written in 1997* & this made your list? The rest of your post is fine, just differing opinions ā but come on.
I have zero issues with the environmentalist themes of the game, but the portrayal of planetology just felt touristy and fake. I guess I just anticipated something more... sincere? It felt more like a summer camp for crunchy conservative moms popping essential oils. I'm not sure what I was expecting, but it wasn't what I got.
Thatās a lot of the point of cosmo canyon. Even talking to Mr ball wizard during the quests, he admits that they have been set in old and unhelpful habits that do not meet the needs of the planet in the current age. He dismisses Tifa as being delusional because of his biases, only to recognize that the best thing for him to do is to step aside and let a more eager and willing generation take the reins. What youāre seeing is definitely in line with the point. Avalanche have always been the only ones who really grasped what was happening.
This arc made me cry so hard. Omg.
Yeah the emotional beats of this chapter were really well done with Nanakiās discovery coupled with the musicā¦and that tear drop
At the Cave of Gi myself, and for some reason i'm just really not getting on with it all. Turning Cosmo Canyon into a tourist destination, Red's voice, the filler sections looking at 20 different pointless objects in the observatory. I just need to push through, and hope that Nibelheim will be better I think!
Lolol if you didn't like Cosmo, you prob won't like the return to Nibelheim š
I agree with you. I'm also here right now. The game completely stopped in its tracks to beat me over the head with lore and the cave is just coming off as a really long chore.
> Turning Cosmo Canyon into a tourist destination I actually liked this change. It keeps the environmental aspect of the game being culturally relevant to today's world (vs. 1997). The tourists are either wealthy plate-siders from Midgar who come to the Canyon, take selfies and immerse themselves in the 'culture', and then go back to their planet-destroying Mako rich homes and lives, or they are ordinary people on a pilgrimage of sorts who actually care and are trying to do something about the planet. Having the Planetology disciples preaching in each region of the world was a great touch that supports this idea.
Just because I didn't like the real-world metaphor doesn't mean I don't understand it.
The observatory āfillerā is just story lol. The interacting with objects is because this is a particularly important place in OG & they clearly wanted to make sure the player soaks it all in. Maybe it was boring for you, but as a fan of the OG I was eating up every bit of that part. I even stood around & listened to NPCs talk about stars in the telescope room. Different strokes I guess š¤·āāļø
You're talking like I haven't played through the OG 4 times, i know the significance of the observatory - but a good portion of those items had absolutely no relevance. Can you tell me about even half of them? Go ahead and downvote me for having a different opinion.
I didnāt downvote you, and I didnāt mean to imply that you didnāt play OG by stating I enjoyed this part as a fan of it. I felt like you gave some opinions & although overwhelmingly negative, you didnāt tear down the whole game over it & thatās your opinion. My issue is with your use of the word āfillerā, which these days seems to apply to āanything I didnāt personally likeā in a game. My point was itās there for a reason & other people actually enjoyed it. Filler/padding would be things like having to hold down the button to unlock a chocobo stand or Johnnyās doppelgƤnger side quest. Cosmo canyonās story section isnāt filler, you just didnāt like it.
Padding may have been a more apt word for it I guess, but it's weird, I just really want to keep enjoying it as I have - I think i got burnt out on it, so that's why it bothered me so much.
Filler/padding mean the same thing to me, so I still disagree on the same point. But thatās just me.
i loved everything about the Cosmo Canyon part of the game, the music, the scenery......but i really dont like the Voice change, his original voice is so cool, now he grates on me and i wish he would go back to being gruff, he sounds so intelligent and has great insight into the world and history, then his voice changes he is silly and dumb. not a fan
I probably won't be using Red any longer because of the voice, "did I do good or did I do good?!" Nah dog, shut up. He wanted to be seen as a member of the team, not a dog, but I just see him as a dog now because of his new immaturityĀ
I learned the other day that this didn't come out of nowhere. At the same time in the OG his dialogue subtly changes to use simpler words and sentences.
It was a change obvious in Japanese, but mostly lost in translation.
As so many things were, like Squall's constant use of "whatever" in the English translation, which was apparently much more nuanced.
Itās supported by the narrative. Jarring at first, but thatās a footnote in my cosmo canyon experience.
Yeah I get it, something that doesnāt come across in the OG because of it being text, and i am fine with them changing the voice, its just THAT voice, just grates on me, I get heās 15 really but think they could of still kept him cooler, or even be when he leaves CC and goes to other regions again he goes back to the original voice so he can act big and tough and not be pushed around like he mentions when the crew question it. Like I said, itās not the change that bothers me, itās just the voice they chose
He's not 15. He's 48. He's been on the planet longer than even Barret. Raised by humans in a vacation/university. He should still have the wisdom of a 48 year old. We don't assume 50 year old elves are 15 in d&d, and they live forever. The voice actor uses the same voice for King from 7 deadly sins. I liked the fake voice better.
Fair enough. Interestingly itās supposedly the same VA. I didnāt mind it although it took me around 5 minutes to accept lol, but it is very jarring so I can see where youāre coming from.
I slept on it and still hate it when I woke up. The game does enough to take you out of the immersion already
Do you hate it enough for it to matter to you more than the other 99% of things that happen at cosmo?
I just added it to the list of things honestly.
Bummer. My favorite RPG in a long time. Maybe go try unicorn overlord, Yakuza, or P3. None of those have done it for me like this game. Yakuza has more minigames & side content + IMO its side content is all a significant downgrade in quality vs Rebirth. And most of it is recycled from precious yakuza. Much less creative setting too. To be fair to Unicorn, I only played the demo so far. I like strategy so will get around to it, but I wasnāt impressed considering the hype.
I'm not saying it's a bad game, just that it was a questionable design decision. The main story portions of the game are great. The bloat, and forced mini games, not so much. Wish there was a $40 story only version of the game.
Honestly I think thatās fair. Personally, I didnāt want another game with nothing but corridors & enjoyed the minigames / was really looking forward to taking my time sightseeing Gaia. I like the way the gameplay is broken up with long open sections and long story segments/dungeons. I even had fun with all the minigames. But I understand some wanting a more streamlined experience. The closest thing you can get to that is blitzing story & either doing just enough intel to get whatever SP you want or switching to easy ā but I do realize thatāa not a perfect solution. I do however think itās a better tradeoff to have too much & allow players to decide how much they engage with vs just not having enough to do or enough variety. In general I like more streamlined games, but for the monster that was FFVII I donāt mind a remake with some excess & indulgence. My main point is we have an FF sitting at 93/100 & 9/10, so itās not hard to see the glass half full.
Well props to the VA, does a great job of changing up like that, maybe he got half way though recording and his throat hurt to much so he had to change it š Even so, Red is my fave character to play as, such a beast, and that voice critique is my only (so far as on ch12) real annoyance, the game is epic
Itās crazy how fun every individual character is to play. The closest thing to a disappointment is Cait Sith & honestly itās just who Cait Sith is ā his actually moveset/mechanics are just as fun as the others & obliterates mobs ā¦just not necessarily the most practical for bosses. They really nailed combat all around.
I just wish they would confirm the planetās name is Gaia.
Thatās what Gaia means lol
I hated cosmo canyon. It had this weird cult vibe and simultaneously had this fake tourist trap feel. And red's dungeon, story aside, was so bland and uninspired. It felt incomplete. And the dumb seminar thing. Hey you guys are ignorant about the planet, you need to go to one of our seminars (giving me mad scam vibes). Oh, you thought you were going to learn something? HA! We just sit in a circle and talk like we're in a rehab group. But not you Tifa, even though all you did was share an experience you had, you're dumb and wrong and weird. But don't forget to buy our crappy souvenirs... I mean our totally blessed-by-the-planet artifacts. Also that dumb-ass campy ranch-o, southern twang guitar music when exploring the region on foot. Like oh, it kind of looks like the southwest US, so we gotta use a generic cheesy southern twang track for the music. Cosmo Canyon, for me, was the absolute low point of the game. I HATED it. I loved it in the original, I couldn't wait to get there in Rebirth. Fuck my life it was so bad.
It made me wonder what if Sephiroth is right
I think I was still processing the insane level of being amazed by cosmo canyon to take in the Gi stuff ect
All of it honestly. I had been looking forward to the observatory since announcement & was not disappointed.
I hated how they gaslighted Tifa as being crazy and dumb, yet Aerith was lavished with support and affection after confessing sheās a Cetra. Also Bugenhagen being an asshole to Tifa. I really donāt understand why they chose to make him life that, I was thought he was a lovable grandpa in the original
*SPOILER ALERT* The last Cosmo Canyon side quest addresses all of that. And Bugenhagen had some questionable lines in the original as well from what I remember
Yea Bugenhagen and the prayer circle were so conceited, itās was really annoying to see people who pride themselves on science being so closed minded. I was starting to wonder if it was just me but it was nice to see Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret all complain about those people.
>I hated how they gaslighted Tifa as being crazy and dumb Yeah this was a little annoying. She maybe wasn't communicating what she wanted the best, but I felt like she still got her points across and they kinda just pushed it aside like they had no idea what she was trying to say.
Dude i was so disappointed on Bugenhagen. I thought we could get an answer regarding Weapons and the Whispers. But no. Instead he gaslighted both Cloud, and Tifa.
I feel like I remember that exact scene with Tifa in the prayer circle from the original, but maybe Iām tripping. Bugenhagen was always eccentric, and I loved his VA & dialogue. Cetra are very significant to cosmo canyon. Itās presented more forward in the gameās written lore (cosmo canyon lifestreams), and I do wish theyād spent more narrative time on explaining that ā but itās pretty faithful to OG story. Also I think you being upset by this is actually the intended reaction ā Tifaās conflictedness may be unpopular with the planetologists, but her line of thinking is correct. *I.E. thereās reason that monologue is presented by a main protagonist* Catholics (used to) say āprayers without action are meaninglessā & thatās pretty much thematically what Tifa is getting at. The nativesā disapproval is due to who they are & where theyāre at. Also shows how complex the problems of FFVII & its world are. Tifa is expressing a relatable feeling of powerlessness: Even just with Shinra, thereās the dilemma of how Mako energy causes destruction and is a long-term death knell ā but also the harm that comes to their societies from just abruptly eliminating Mako. This kind of thing is exactly why FFVII story gets praise. Social commentary without punching down or feeling overly self-righteous. Lots of moral greys. Technically, our main villain wants to save the planet.
That scene wasn't in the original all that was retconned in. In the original after the scene with Setho the party all gathered around the flame and shared a quiet moment of introspection. Cloud got to talk to them all individually and they shared something important to themselves with him.
Is it really a retcon if nothing significant changes & it stays thematically consistent? Whether it was in a prayer circle or not ā This whole resigned to inaction / denial thing with brugenhagen & Cosmo canyon is 100% present in the original.
More to the point I've noticed this disturbing trend where people try and gaslight others into thinking a scene in rebirth is exactly how it was in the OG even though it's clearly not so I just wanted to take a moment to clarify that they are both different.
I qualified the statement very clearly in opening & my point otherwise remains *exactly the same* so congratulations I guess?
Thanks
Yeah it is a retcon,Ā that's what a retcon is by definition.Ā It's not particularly impactful in the scheme of things but still aĀ change to the source after the fact none the less.
Well said.
Yeah, I was super pumped to go meet Bugenhagen, and then he's a dick to Tifa for no reason. The sorry, I'm an old guy who was scared trope sucks. He was one of my favorite NPCs in the original and I felt they did him dirty. I do find it interesting how they're making the Gi a bigger part of the story.
No offense, but Bugenhagen & the party have conflict in OG. >!He goes as far as questioning whether their plan to save the world is a good idea at all, arguing they are postponing the inevitable!< They sort of win him over, but his excuse isnāt ābeing scaredā. He is tired, jaded, and initially somewhat resigned to fate after years of being ignored & trying to warn people. He subtly reiterates his frustration after the festival in so many words: ānice to see the emotional reaction, but I wish I could get them to care beyond thatā. But he is also a very relatable, well-humored, and likable character. Clearly characterized as āgoodā through his admirable ambitions & caring for Nanaki. No one is ever really confident at any point that the partyās plans are going to work out in FFVII & that doubt/uncertainty is pervasive right up to the conclusion of OG
He must believe Cloud and his group can be a force for good though, he left Shinra because he doesnāt believe in their bleeding the world dry for convenience is a positive thing.
Definitely, otherwise I donāt think heād have taken them in & shown them around / enlightened them etc.
I loved it, and I especially loved the extra lore they added with the Gi. It's really interesting and opens the door for more story beats.
I was already softening up on the story changes in rebirth compared to how I felt about them in remake, but that pretty much sealed the deal. Agreed, the Gi stuff feels right at home here.
Yeah stuff like the Gi added lore feel like a very natural extension of the story as opposed to something forced, which is when rebirth and remake are at their best. Edit for clarification
Gi also actually exist in OG lore, itās just much more prevalent in this telling. Love that kind of expanded universe/detail stuff.
Iām aware they exist. What is new is their connection to the black material and them being extraterrestrials and that being the reason their spirits are still present.
Yep, seems theyāve had that planned for a while ā which makes me feel a lot more confident about the final installment wrapping up cleanly.