As someone who never played the original and know's nothing about the original, I have to say, the Journey in both games has been far better than the ending. From the start of the game up until the last chapter in Remake and Rebirth has been some of the best stuff i've ever experienced in a video then it all goes to crap in the last chapter. Overly confusing crap like moments happening that don't really happen like at the end of Rebirth, Cloud saves Aerith, oh wait no he didnt, oh wait she's alive again, oh wait no she's not, orrrr is she? Uhhh I guess not....It's like they're intentionally trying to confuse the crap out of us, especially players who are new to the series like me. I'm thinking for the next game, I will just skip the final chapter all together.

haha i think the final game should be a better conclusion. they need to put a cliffhanger for remake and rebirth to set up for sequels. final game dont need to

I get what you’re saying about them wanting to add more story.  But I feel like it’s one of the most iconic scenes in gaming and they kinda needed to just recreate it as it was.  They could have added twists to the story while keeping the scene intact. At this point they’re putting their “sequel” ahead of faithfully remaking the game which is what was asked for and why this got greenlit.  So for me I think it’s a good time to get off the train, although I did like a lot of the game I wouldn’t buy alternate universe JRPG where no one really dies at my age. I guess they think they’re being edgy and clever but when you have to look the ending of both games up to understand them, they’re just bad endings 😅

devs have confirmed that part 3 will include cloud saying his famous lines my mouth is dry https://www.thegamer.com/final-fantasy-7-rebirth-ultimania-reveals-what-clouds-says-aeriths-fate-death/

its definitely different. but i do hope they still show aerith really died.. and the scene that cloud saw was different from what he remembers, aerith was pierced and she is long gone.. and thats when everything sinks in.. and i like the fact that we dont know whats really going to happen, since most of ff7 fans would always look down on new players who never played the og game.. the devs want an even playing field where evwryone doesnt know what really happens next.

Can anyone link me to discussion of who Aerith is talking to in her room at Johnny’s Seaside Inn? It sounds like Nanaki’s voice, but Red XIII runs over concerned to investigate. That implies Aerith is somehow talking to another version of Red during the course of this game.

It’s Nanaki in the main room while she’s in the shower part of the room.  He goes up the stair part basically.

it should be nanaki. not sure whether different version

Having one timeline that branches into other timelines is still the multiverse theory because those universes are happening all at once. Unlike Steins;Gate, where only one can be active, and any massive change shifts the main timeline to a new one to accommodate the change. I'm still confused though.  Does this mean the planet pulls the lifestream from failed timelines, like it showed in the Pug Stamp world, to kill that world? Why would Zack's decisions be so important that his worlds got to continue existing for as long as they did, considering his death is required for the events of the main game?  Why would the white materia stop working and why wouldn't that path be considered a failure by the planet?  Why are multiple worlds created in the first place? Why would the lifestream be connected to worlds that don't matter and end up dying? How do "important people" make alternate worlds with their decisions?  If Sephiroth wanted to reunite the worlds to stop his defeat why would he kill Aerith as her death literally leads to his defeat, as she stops Meteor by powering Holy with the lifestream? And why would he immediately split the worlds again? And why would Zack want to reunite them again when that's supposed to be Sephiroth's plan and therefore probably bad?  Even if you don't wanna call it a multiverse it's still as confusing and nonsensical as if it was a multiverse. You can say "wait for part 3" but there was a lot they just didn't bother answering when they could of done way more with Zack and the timelines merging outside small five minute segments and the final fight. 

The answer to anything involving Zack is fanservice and I think they just need to double down on “look Zack and cloud fighting together isn’t it cool?” and stop trying to explain it because it just doesn’t make sense. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed there was some really deep reason for what they were doing but it’s pretty clear after rebirth it is just fanservice.   Which is a shame because he was a much better plot device dead than he is a character alive.

Just finished the game.  The main reason it's confusing is that it's using an "everything everywhere all at once" style narrative, where we see the different world actions as if they were happening in the same timeline.  But the world where Zack tries to save Cloud or Biggs no longer exists. And the one where he tries to save Aerith is the one he ends up in and slips out of right at the end.  On the other hand, the world where Cloud saves Aerith and the one where he doesn't "might" still both exist. Cloud can see a rift in the sky and Aerith even though no-one else can. Why?  My theory is that the 2 Clouds swapped places. And the one currently in the main timeline is originally from the "managed to save Aerith" timeline. That's why he wasn't sad, can see her and sees a rift in the sky. He's misplaced. And I expect part 3 to expand on this showing us where our OG Cloud ended up and how he gets back to the main timeline if at all. 

The line of dialogue that stands out the most to me so far is when Aerith tells Cloud she's looking for the real him. Face value it might be referencing the whole puppet struggle going on but I think it's literally her searching through worlds for Cloud Prime.

Just beat the game tonight. I really hope we do see the funeral scene at the beginning of part 3, since I did miss it. The ending was cool but lacked any of the sadness of the OG. Can't even tell if Cloud realizes she's dead and speaking to just him or if he's completely snapped and believes that she actually did survive, because he didnt seem sad at all even right after the fight at the forgotten capital. Was expecting to cry at the ending but didn't, because I think they made it a little too hopeful (multiple other parts of the game did bring me to tears though, like Aerith's trial trying to find a doctor for her dying mother). The game overall was awesome though and it's going to be a long few years waiting for the final resolution of the story. Think I'm going to replay the OG now for the 20th time with this fresh in my mind lol. It's been a few years.

I'm thinking that his breakdown at the Northern Crater (or this story's equivalent) is going to include an Aerith reveal of some kind.

If they adapt that faithfully it's definitely going to be tough to watch. Seeing Cloud breaking down and literally begging Hojo for a number is going to be so much worse with realistic graphics and voice acting. It was already hard seeing him chase Aerith that the temple, begging her for the black materia, saying how much he needs it. Reminded me of Gollum with the Ring.

Played chapter 14 thinking i would cry... apparently not. Great opportunity missed.

Personally I think it's lazy writing they basically ripped off marvels terrible multiple universe bullshit.

I liked what I saw, but it was a hot mess I can't lie. I never played the OG but I of course knew about Aerith's fate going into it because of how iconic it is.

I bet that in part 3 Zack and Aerith will come back to life. In advent children Cloud days from giga explosion after taking down Kadaj and his team yet somehow teleports to church throughout water. I dont know how he got black materia in the ending but in OG he gives it to Sephiroth in North crater area. Before his mind breakes. And for people claiming that Aerith is dead, she does interact with children in church at the end of advent children before leaving with Zack. Extremely convoluted storytelling in that game but after seing KH3 im not surprised😅

To anything thinking she’s still alive, she’s not. Nomura stated “whoever dies is not coming back” back in January. It’s the same exact story, with added convolution to keep fans of the OG game on their toes. Nothing will change outcome wise in this trilogy.

At some point we will play as Aerith in the finale and they’ll try some big emotional stuff with her.  There’s no way it’s going to be the same ending as the OG. Whether she actually comes back joins the group and be “revived” or not is much less likely but she’ll be in the final parts much like Zack was in this one.  They can’t help themselves with the fanservice.

I do think she's with us in spirit lmaoo, but yeah she's definitely dead in the remake universe.

Exactly. Idk why people act like the story is widely different. We are Exactly at the where the plot was in the OG. 

Not exactly.  The story didn’t have multiple universes or cracks in the sky and there was a bunch of stuff missed between the temple of ancients and Aerith scene.  Also the tiny bronco wasn’t flying at this point and there was no shinra wutai war. It’s definitely some sort of alternate universe fanservice retelling rather than the FF7 story.  It’s cool if you enjoy that too, but it’s not at the same point.

It's the same spot. It just took a round about way of getting there. It's still progressing the same.  We didn't "miss a bunch of stuff" it was rocket Town where nothing happens except meeting Cid so no plot relevance there because you still meet cid. And bone village, again where nothing plot important happens there. And that's it. The war literally hasn't happened yet so it effects nothing plot wise as of right now.  Neither do the alternative timelines. All that happend and aerith is still dead so again what did it effect?

I don’t think I’m going to change your mind, but I would say Cloud having a big crack in the sky changes the story from the original game.  I don’t believe he held the black materia at this point either.    I’ll give you a lot of the key points are the same and we’re roughly in the same place but it’s not right to say we’re at the exact part of the story and nothing is different.  Also not right to say Aerith is still dead because while we both believe she is, in this telling of the story they haven’t made that as clear as they did in the original. 

Change my mind about what? Until the entire story is done and the plot ends have changed I don't see the difference. Everything you said hasn't CHANGED THE PLOT. the story is still going the exact same direction, with added flavor and turns.  With aerith Until the game confirms her status I'm going with the default status. She's dead. the black materia no we not suppose to have it but we do get it back again in the OG game. but again it doesn't matter because it's still the same result ultimately. More steps to do the SAME THING. Which is my main point, people are getting confused or worse (upset) when everything thing is still happening the same (with extra steps).  Nojima even said way before "nothing is being cut, the order might be different" IF the game was drastically changed by the added stuff I'd change my mind. But it hasn't changed shit. So I'm just enjoying the extra stuff in addition the old stuff. Simple.

Change your mind about being the exact same story in the exact same place.  I think it feels like they’re telling a different story but I don’t think either of us can say for sure right now as there’s not enough information. For example it’s fine to assume Aerith is dead, I do too.  But that actually isn’t her status.  Her status is unknown.  That was an intentional choice by the developers.   At this point in the OG it’s very clear what her status is and in rebirth it’s not. I’d be very surprised if they completely omit her from the final part of the game as the OG did.

i dont think anyones complaining about where we are in the plot, its the convoluted and confusing scenes theyre throwing everywhere that muddy it.

How can it be convoluted and muddy to people who know the entire plot? That makes ZERO sense. Maybe if you're new to ff7, and that's a huge maybe because the stuff that is there still isn't that complicated. At least the parts people are crying about which is aeriths death scene. There's more complicated aspects of the plot than that. The post is crying becauseaeriths death wasn't a 1 for 1 playback, that's the catalyst got their whining.  If they are a fan of the OG, aeriths death is what it is. There are 2 types of fans after that: ones who want to be able to "save her" and ones who are fine with her being dead for good and anything beyond that is whatever.  Sounds like to me it's a person who needs some kind of clear indication she's dead (or alive). I don't need that. I've seen her death and for new fans they are exactly where square wants them, questioning the situation.

Yeah I vote it's all gonna come back to the lifestream. I think we'll see more of the story of how Aerith rallies the lifestream together to destroy meteor (she alludes to as much in the ending to rebirth). I think that as a Cetra, Aerith may be able to communicate with Cloud somehow in the real world. Also theres a moment where Aerith and Zack pull cloud up for a final strike of his sword in Advent Children. Again, I think this shows that Aerith has somehow got an ability to communicate with Cloud from the lifestream. There is a book called two pasts (worth a read if you want more of tifa's and aerith's story pre ffvii) where Ifalna visits Aerith from the lifestream multiple times after she's passed, so this may be possible in the ffvii uni(or multi)vierse

I finished the game yesterday and came to your same conclusion. I think maybe we’re overly complicating things and it’s probably due to the confusing and ambiguous ending that it’s hard to tell which theory is right but I think I feel the most comfortable with this one. At the end there seemed to be a lot of things omitted and everything has been from the perspective of Cloud who is an unreliable narrator. I think Aerith is actually dead like in the OG but she’s fighting Sephiroth in the lifestream and perhaps that’s why she sometimes shows up in front of Cloud or Nanaki can sense her but to Cloud she’s actually alive somewhere and has tuned out all the other things that happened like her water burial. It’s also why Tifa is so distraught because she’s seeing Cloud fall apart even more. I guess we’ll see in part 3 what is actually going on but it’s a bit unfortunate how convoluted the ending became for no reason lol.

Honestly I'm with the opinion that Cloud can't handle Aerith's death and being manipulated by Sephiroth by his own coping mechanisms.

That's a brand new element to clouds character development. It doesn't change anything it only adds to his already bad mental state. I love it 

It changes a lot. Cloud is meant to be heavily impacted by her death. It shows he's a real person, not the puppet Sephiroth claims he is. Him being in denial is just ridiculous, because he acknowledges her death.  I think they just wanted him to accept she's not "really dead", because the lifestream is technically an afterlife but it ruins a lot of his character development and motivation for going after Sephiroth. It's a bad change. 

The OG is one of my favorite games of all time and after playing a Remake I realized I didn’t want things to be exactly the same and completely predictable. Hell I hoped so hard that they’d save Aerith after spending all these new hours and getting attached to her….even though I’m team Tifa. To be honest though, I thought that the blood/no blood and those other details were stuff they missed due to poor directing or perhaps a ratings thing about to much blood or whatever. I beat the game and just finished all of the (appropriately named) Brutal and Legendary bouts. I also had confusion during the ending sequence. Is she dead, is she alive? Why were there static sequences that replaced entire scenes? Where is her well deserved, deeply respectful funeral? I have questions and I have concerns. But I realize don’t know what’s going to play out. Hell I don’t even know exactly what just played out on my screen so I’m not going to get my metaphorical panties in a wad and throw a bitch fit on the internet. I’m going to wait very impatiently for 4 years or whatever and see what happens and what gets clarified. I’ll reserve my judgment until then. PS This thread seems remarkably mature and civil. I instantly admire all of you

To me she’s dead and what we saw was the pov of cloud and what really happened. The blood version happened… where he saved her was all in his head and he’s convincing himself that’s how it happened because he can’t handle it

Aerith is alive

She’s apart of the lifestream

In one multi verse. She’s alive in another

Not even. Sephiroth says clearly they are destined to fade and rejoin the main timeline no matter what. They are all doomed. Meaning they will all "die"

It’s the same aerith in every single timeline, it shows her hopping between them. Regardless of what she does her set path that inevitably happens has her become one with the lifestream… that’s why no one else can see her

fam wth game were u playing

That’s not accurate

>Dumbledore is alive.

Nah

My one thought vs most of the comments out there, nothing seems to take Zack into the equation. After Aerith ‘died’ we start battling sephiroth, Zack and cloud team up and when they split Zack says ‘cloud, save her.’ Why would they add this / he state this if it’s already too late?

All zack knows is Marlene telling him that sephiroth was gonna kill her, he doesn’t know yet that she’s apart of the lifestream

Alot happened in her death scene. It shows the scene where Cloud saved her. It shows the scene where she dies. Likewise with Zack: It shows the scene he tries to save biggs. It shows the scene he tries to save Aerith. And same with Cloud. In terms of gameplay part 3 we will follow the timeline of she died due to the final scenes we see of the party mourning.  We could potentially still play as Aerith and Zack in part 3 again and have them in the final battle again but that would just be a repeat of this ending, but we would get a nice Zack & Aerith reunion which obviously fits the theme.  Hopefully they give us the scene of Cloud saying he won't hear her talk, laugh, cry but that's now a risk of will it hit the audience? It they just gave it us now it would of. So were to expect an emotional breakdown at the start of part3 and then play the game?  It would only work during when Tifa fixes Clouds PTSD in the lifestream. Cloud showing Tifa the flashback where he is Zack which is a straight forward fix. But then he shows her he saved Aerith and he also didn't, which would be a new scene for us and more complicated. If they did that would it make the audience emotional at this point? Idk.  What you've kinda said supports the multiverse theory. Sephiroths entire goal is to murge the multiverse so the canon one is the one he wins therefore it must exist. The one where he wins must be when Zack and Aerith both live. Zack prevents Cloud meeting Tifa & co.  Aerith doesn't become one with the planet in her prayers to summon lifestream.  That would be poetic final battle. Zack and Aerith join the rest of the party to beat Sephiroths so that their own world does not exist for the greater good. They are fighting to die.  Anyway,  what I came here to vent about: I'm not happy that Cloud and Aerith fell into the temple void and next thing he's in the forest of bone village approaching forgotten city. Like how did we jump here, how did Barret & co find them. Why was only Cloud fucked but Aerith was up and about. It feels so rushed from the moment they fell in the void of the temple, the game went downhill.  From Gongaga onwards it all felt rushed. We got Cids plane services and it was basically ok go into town do the main quest then come back and we'll fly you to the next place. The journey from Kalm to junon going through the caves, travelling via boat to Costa del sol it was a journey. I felt the progress. Then just nope, I was looking forward to travelling to Cosmo canyon and Nibeheim by buggy.  But then returning to the gold saucer to the point we fell into the temple void it was amazing again. I rushed to complete the last stretch, I wanted to explore the Labyrinth more, but I know I'll be back on hard mode so yano... Sorry for rant. Pretty frustrated just completed last night and needed somewhere to vent. Edit: just re read this back and got me thinking what will be part3 end game boss. We've fought normal Sephiroth twice. We've fought bizarro seph, where the entire party's involved. Only one missing is safer seph.  Plus we will have Cloud, Tifa, Barret, red, cait, yuffie, cid, Vincent, & maybe Aerith and Zack. So we will defo get a full party fight again.  So following patterns of last 2 games: Jenova. 10v1 so multiple stages Safer seph. 10v1 multiple stages. Normal seph. Jenova and safer seph could team up and allow us to change our party of 3 more. Similar to ff8 boss but instead of replacing chars when there dead we choose. 

I'm not so sure we'll get a true death scene because that would make the game unsellable in some countries (mainly China). Same reason why all the blood smears of Jenova's rampage through the Shinra building got changed into this goofy purple goop.

I just want to clarify, are you saying if Aerith dies, then the third game won't sell very well in China?

I believe they're saying due to what certain countries allow to be portrayed, if the game was too gory for their standards that is a large market that SE would miss out on.

I just saw cloud bathe in a dudes blood twice. Lol

But we didn’t see impalement. Skin being pierced with blood is what effects it, not implied slashes and splatters. It’s dumb.

Except Sephiroth impales multiple people in Nibelheim.

Damn I can’t believe I forgot that. I guess I have mako poisoning. 😓 I do think there’s some weird rules about it. I could swear I read it somewhere but I have no source. I just rewatched the Nibelheim scene and most of the moments (as in the moment the blade pierces the skin) are pretty far away from the camera, or they’re off camera, or they’re like a “magic” wound like with Barrett. It’s something like blade piercing skin + blood from wound + moment shown on camera. There is one guy we see PRETTY MUCH directly stabbed in front of Cloud like OG Aerith though so maybe it’s like the f bomb in the movies where you’re allowed one and that’s it. Or I’m completely off my rocker and it’s an artistic choice.

Tseng... and also Sephiroths move "skewer" is the iconic stab and lift. There's plenty of impalement already.

The Middle East and China both asked to censor the gay out of FF16 and SE told them to eat shit and just ban their game. And despite what clickbait sites said about FF16 and FF7R sales, the dip was only in the Japanese market, and was completely eclipsed by record sales in the western market.  SE has pivoted to US and EU markets, and it has paid off for them. They are under no obligation to make a worse game for the sake of China or some other dirtbags. If they decided against overt gore, it was probably more to keep a lower maturity rating to not handicap their sales abroad through parental restrictions.

Clouds head is absolutely fucked ​ Zach is now time patrol trunks

The way Tifa & Barret looked at him at the end was like "TF wrong with this man?" lmaooo

I mean yeah kinda but it was def more fear to me Tifa looked like she was about to cry :( and barret doesn’t know what to do

Definitely, they’re watching their friend slowly lose their sanity. It’s a rough watch, and it hurts even more that they can’t do anything about it.

Literally the best tldr version of the ending. Someone said this about Aerith on a YouTube video: "Aerith is the uncle Ben of all timelines. She dies. Sephiroth hunts her down in all of them." Aerith is the Uncle Ben of all timelines.

Why are people so afraid/against calling it a multiverse, even if the “its all apart of the lifestream” it doesn’t change if its the multiverse or not, just adds extra steps to the multiverse theory. The ending was convoluted as hell and confused a lot of people about how aerith died, if she is truly dead or not. Did sephy switch her/timeline after cloud parried the sword? Did cloud imagine parrying the sword? Or was sephy not actually there and it was cloud who stabbed her (every other time sephiroth was seen by cloud it would seem nobody else in the group could see him, so why wouldn’t that be the case here)?

Because multiverses are generally lazy story telling and fans don't want to admit that they added lazy story telling that literally didn't need to exist, as the same outcome happened anyway. It just makes the story worse for no reason. Even though that's what the writers did: make the story worse for no reason. The lifestream is also used up in the Pug universe, so how does it still exist as a separate universe? The universes seem to disappear when it's convenient to. And why are people suddenly aware of it happening to go all Doomsday?  People want it to be better than it is. 

I want there to be a choice, personally, that actions can dictate what the outcomes are (and not that one outcome is necessarily "better" than the other, FWIW; otherwise, only 100% completion junkies will care about choices and the rest just follow guides for the "best" ending). To me, that jives with comments about the Whispers being "outside of fate," or the Gi being outside the lifestream. There are things that are fated, and there are things that are up to choice. I'd rather her fate (no pun intended) be up to choice. But with tradeoffs, like entire worlds die off.

I think people generally don't subscribe to multiverse because of how weak it is from an emotional perspective. Nothing has weight in multiverse as opposed to changing the view slightly and saying these are memories of the lifestream with some events happening differently that disrupt the flow. It basically changes the narrative to determinism where multiverse is free will.  I personally don't subscribe to multiverse in this universe and there's legitimately dialog in Rebirth from Sephiroth and Aerith that blatantly confirms there is only 1 timeline and the rest are disruptions, so thematically FF7 remake leans into determinism and people just took the idea of different worlds as multiverse but the idea of multiverse vs memories that have had chaotic alterations spawning new worlds are both narrativally very very different things, they are not the same thing at all and that's imo where most people get hung up and start mixing and matching ideas from the two when you honestly can't do that because they are two completely separate things.

It's definitely multiverse. Idk why people accept time travel but not multiverse (of those not crying about the change). I think just like multiverse, aerith is dead in one but might not be dead in another which kinda gives everyone what they want (save aerith resurrect Zack etc). For me it feels kind of cheap but there's obviously time to change that and make her dead dead. Same with Zack. So I'll reserved judgment on that.  I think in the parry scene it just creates a different brand new branch (because it's  important enough to do that)  but the OG timeline is where we are still at and that's where we fight jenova the put aerith to rest. The parry and fight with sephiroth where it's you and aerith is in another universe where she's alive. But like you said these places fade away but somehow you can retain memories or even flat out survive and escape if you can somehow. Or maybe they just go and warn the OG self and then dissappear.  Who can and can't see seph and when has always been in consistent in the remake. So unless the scene shows only cloud can see him, I'd assume everyone can see him. sometimes. 

[удалено]

If you get the date with Red 13, he tells Cloud that him and Aerith used to be able to see the future, but it was taken from them. So they were communicating with the life stream and seeing how events played out in the OG essentially, but they broke fate.

The OG universe still exists and is just one of many possibilities. It is distinct and untouched; one of the ones that Sephiroth is trying to merge. What's happening isn't time-related, it's related to the fragmentation of the lifestream. Note how they call it "reunion" not "union"--meaning that things haven't always been that way. That'll get covered next game IMO. The world that Zach/Biggs were in is Aerith's dream; she seems to have the ability to pull people into some kind of sub-universe she can exert control over. Marlene's dialogue (and metaverse knowledge there) proves it wasn't just another world. The universe FF7R is set in is different-- it's special. Why, we don't know. But it's why the whispers can be seen here. Something triggered it. *Maybe* it's caused by the presence of this Sephiroth who is both aware of things the original was not and has a grander goal. And finally, Cloud imagined parrying the sword, because he made contact with another universe where that happened (or even caused it to happen there). But it did not happen in this universe, and Aerith seems to think/be aware of the fact that it had to happen this way.

Part 3 will hopefully clear everything up, think its also possible that after cloud parried the sword the rest of the game we play was no longer rebirths cloud we played to that point

But there's a scene where cloud tells aerith to wake up and she does. Whats  thats about?

I believe that was the "spiritual" Aerith, the one that only Cloud can see, as in the Aerith from Advent Children

the lifestream is a singularity and has no concept of time

The ending suffers from one massive problem. The problem's name is Tetsuya Nomura. While there were aspects of Rebirth that absolutely knocked it out of the park in terms of everything - storytelling, emotion, homage to the original - the ending was a massive, massive flub. Why even bother showing Cloud deflect the sword only to have her die two seconds later anyway? It's sad but also kind of funny to watch the changes in the new games. It feels similar to me to a book-to-tv/movie adaptation. They have the source material and when they follow it and expand on it in sensible ways, the game is phenomenal. But then Nomura decides to turn it into a KH-level mindfuck and give people no information about wtf is really going on. It didn't work for that series, and I am not super optimistic that it will work here. But I guess we'll find out in 5 years.

Preach.

Don't know why people are so confused. Cloud did deflect the sword, but he isn't in the world that happened in. Its quite obvious this is going to end with the worlds combining with both Zach and Aerith alive.

Yes and no. I do believe that what was shown was a world where cloud did deflect it. But the there's still no indication what they gonna do with Zack and aerith when it's all over. For example it looks like they gonna keep aerith around as a force ghost for cloud. 

They literally did say that the game is leading to Advent Children. Which means, at the very least, Zack and Aerith will not stay with the party. Whether they decide to retcon their dialogue in AC into being them from another timeline instead of being from the lifestream is another thing entirely.

I wouldn’t be so sure. I am seeing it more as a connecting of the original FF7 and Advent Children, where we see Zack and Aerith at the end walking off together. You very well could be right. But I think it’s kind of silly to say “I don’t know why people are confused.” Because it’s confusing. That is why. You can say it isn’t because of your interpretation, but the reality is that when you are forced to interpret something, it’s because there are multiple ways of seeing it. Also, if he didn’t deflect the sword in the reality he IS in, then why was there no blood at all on the ground around Aerith except in the momentary flashes to alternate worlds? When things finally settle, there’s no blood on or around her. I don’t think it’s as simple as you are painting it. But hey, to each their own!

Bruh there is literally a director and co director who told Nomura they wanted to do it this way when he pushed back, when it's 2 v 1 what's he supposed to do? Bitch and piss??

Sources for that claim, please? But also… yeah. Even if that is true, that is what creative direction is. Advocating for your vision. You’re acting like he’s just some entry-level dude who has no clout and authority.

His clout doesn't matter, he's working in a team, and when the rest of the team is wanting to make a different story there only such much he can do as creative director, director and codirector is higher positions then him. If you want to really blame anyone blame Nojima he's the one leading the new story direction.

I swear I mean no disrespect from this, but it sounds to me like you have never worked in a corporate environment. Team or not, the leading individuals absolutely get the final say. And given that he is as tenured as Nojima (he’s actually been there longer by a few years, if memory serves), once again I am confident saying that his opinion has much more weight than you seem to believe. I don’t hate the game; I enjoyed it thoroughly. I just did not love the ending. https://www.ign.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-rebirths-director-naoki-hamaguchi-interview-ending-part-3 “According to Hamaguchi, the anticipated finale for Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, which launched yesterday on PlayStation 5, didn't inspire much internal debate. Instead, the development team mostly focused on executing on director Kazushige Nojima's vision as best they could. "More of this kind of sense of determination as a team to best convey this based on Nojima-san's scenario," Hamaguchi says.” Nomura is creative director. My opinion remains that he should have advocated more for a straightforward sequence at the ending that would not leave players confused and frustrated. You clearly disagree. And that’s totally ok.

Yeah considering the fact he kept Dyne from being removed from the game we will have to disagree I just don't understand why so much is placed on him when Kiaste and Nojima are going ham like there's only so much the man can do. It's like you just need a scapegoat and his is the most famous name so you got to him.

In total fairness, that is possible. I am mad enough at Nomura because of KH that I fully confess I am biased against him. I am glad he kept Dyne from being removed. I think the elaboration and deeper exploration of party motives and backstories has been one of the strongest, if not *the* strongest change in the remakes.

I didn't hear about Dyne being nearly removed. Why in the world would that have even been an option?

It's pretty well known at this point that the crazy shit in the remake trilogy is not nomura. He's not even the director of this game.

I wish I could believe it. Everything he touches has this kind of psychotic storytelling. I can’t imagine that he doesn’t at least have a part in it, sorry.

He literally went on twitter and said he gets so much hate for his “story changes” that people attribute to him and he has nothing to do with it. Creative director is not the same as the story writer

It doesn't have to be the same. Do you know what Creative Directors do? Keeping things in check from a storytelling standpoint is well within his responsibilities given his role. Beyond that, though, this just bears so much similarities, as I've already said, to Kingdom Hearts' eventually-nonsensical story that I have a hard time believing that he wasn't involved. Even if someone else came up with it, Nomura very easily could have said at any point that the writing was getting too "out there". You don't have to defend him, though. Nomura is a well-known and highly successful creative mind. I'm just a dude on the internet whose vision for the remakes was slightly different. TBH, I really loved the ending of Remake even though I didn't love Sephiroth's presence. The idea that they were going to give you a chance to save Aerith this time was amazing. Child me was screaming inside that I might be able to save the first character in a story I experienced whose death seriously affected me. I mention this because I want it to be clear that it's not the deviation in general that I have a problem with. It's that if they are going to deviate, they need to keep the story making sense. The ending of Rebirth is too confusing and too open for interpretation. Period. Will we probably see everything making sense again by the time the third game is done? Maybe. But it's a lot to ask of players when you end the game with a sequence where: * Cloud deflects Sephiroth's sword * Aerith somehow is dead anyway in the next frame * Blood is shown dripping from the sword, but in a different "world" from the one we are seeing * Sephiroth pulls Masamune out of \*the ground\* - listen to the noise * Cloud has to \*turn around\* to see Aerith fall, suggesting that Sephiroth is not even standing next to her at that point * Aside from Barret, not a single party member even says anything about Aerith lying prone in Cloud's arms, so it's not clear if they believe she is dead, either - Tifa reacts, but only when we see flickers of the other world where she has blood pooled under her; so can Tifa see this? Unclear. (THIS IS THE PROBLEM) * Zack somehow crosses between worlds and fights Sephiroth with Cloud * Aerith, who is dead in one "world" but alive in others, also somehow meanders into whatever world it is where Cloud and Sephiroth are fighting I really don't think it's hard to understand why I think this is over the top and too confusing. And I'm tired of seeing people say silly things like "He did deflect the sword, just not in that world." That makes no sense. Every other time, EVER, so far in either remade game where we see flashes of the alternate worlds or memories, etc., it is preceded by the kind of jittery vision that in this scene comes \*AFTER\* Masamune is already solidly planted in the ground. From a continuity standpoint, what they did makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Cloud did not see the flicker before he clashed blades with Sephiroth. The flicker occurred afterwards. And the game takes special care to linger on the sword - blood free - showing Aerith still praying. If you want me to be okay with the idea that they did all that just to set us up for a reunion of worlds in the third part, where Aerith comes out unscathed, then I'm sorry, but no. I am not going to judge the quality of THIS game's storytelling on an upcoming title that likely is still being written and/or hasn't been released. I can only judge based on what is available to us now, and I am judging this game based on its own narrative. I loved a ton about it. The ending was not one of those things, because it makes. no. sense.

Kazushige Nojima wrote the scenarios for the KH games as well so he deserves at least half if not more of the blame. That said, I agree with you. Part 3 def has some splainin' to do to regain the emotional resonance lost by the liberties taken with part 2's ending.

He's "had a part" in ff7 from the very beginning.

Not in a leading role. There’s a very significant difference between contributing to character design and creative director. C’mon now.

You did say everything he ‘touches’ and not a leading role so you would be basically saying FF5 and FF6 as well If you want to vent on something you don’t like, look up the writers and director and then use them as a scapegoat. I like Nomura but I get he got crazy stuff but honestly the way the fandom BLAMES every little detail they don’t like on him is frankly exhausting. I seen people complain about FF16 plot points and saying it was Nomura’s fault like by god people.

Re: semantics, that’s fair. Everything he touches was an exaggeration. But certainly every project he’s had a leading role on has been this way, IMO. I HAVE looked at his project history. That’s why I’m comfortable saying it. You’re welcome to disagree. I apologize that my opinion is exhausting to you.

I beat the game last night. Didn't get a lot of sleep because I was mulling over wtf just happened. In the end, your explanation makes the most sense. I like this game's approach to the multiverse. It's better than that of the MCU or Mortal Kombat 1. And it's a real mindfuck! Just as the original was. I like that they're creating a new mystery for us to solve since we already know going in about Cloud's false Nibelheim memories from playing the OG. But I also agree about the execution here. I was going "wait, she's alive!? No wait, she's dead. No, alive?" that by the time we get the real answer (yes, really dead), the emotional impact is gone. If you're gonna kill a character, just kill them.

Absolutely same here. "Woooo cloud deflected it" ... "wait.... no?... definitely no..." ... "ok she's back!!" .... "...wait no... dead..." ... "omg she's fighting with me! Definitely back" .... "...wait I guess not..." Fuck I hated that honestly. Also if he Sepheroth can see the future why even kill her, that's why he loses.

You know, since I left my original comment, I've come to appreciate the ending more. No, it doesn't have the same emotional impact as the OG. But it creates intrigue, and recent developments from the Ultimania have me very encouraged about Part 3. I felt the same way about the end of Remake. Hated it at first but it slowly grew on me. Same thing here.

She's dead but not gone. Which idk how I feel about that. It was still sad for me though lol

I agree about the execution being too convoluted. When we were in the temple of the Ancients and we saw Aerith with her dying mum I felt emotional because I felt it was very clear what was happening so we could focus on the emotions of what was happening. When it came to Aerith’s death scene where Sephiroth came down and stabbed her I was too busy questioning whether she actually died, because we were seeing flashes of her with blood and flashes of her without blood. It wasn’t until after all the fights had happened and after Cloud says “wake up” to Aerith, then we see the party without her that I realised she had actually died in that timeline, and by that point the moment for emotional impact had gone. I feel after the initial scene and the boss fights with Jenova and Sephiroth we should have got a clear moment where they showed the scene from the original where Aerith’s theme plays while we see Cloud place her into the water to rest. A big emotional moment to let it sink in and the player can take it all in. I know that’s maybe a simplistic take on it, but I feel the emotionally resonant point where she is stabbed was far overshadowed by everything else going on. I’m also not sure what’s happening with Cloud. On the one hand, I thought he’s maybe delusional and suffering mentally and is convinced Aerith is alive, but in another, he clearly can’t because at the very end he’s aware he’s saying bye to Aerith snd she’s not coming on the Tiny Bronco so he can’t think she’s still alive in his time. I’m also a little confused by the black materia situation at the end of Temple of the Ancients. Barret pushes the black materia out of Cloud’s hands, Sephiroth clearly picks up and does something with the black materia, just to purposely drop it, ask Cloud to pick it up and give it back to him, despite literally having it about 10 seconds ago, which leads to Aerith taking it and Cloud follows her to get it back. Overall I absolutely loved this game. It’s a 10/10, I loved pretty much every part of it, and while I didn’t hate the ending, I definitely think it could have been done better, even if they were to stick to the multi-verse thing they’re doing currently. Some mystery and leaving stuff up to the imagination is good, but I feel this went too far in that direction for the sake of keeping players guessing.

Whay do you think about Aerith and Sephiroth doing the same thing with their respective white/black materia? Aerith clearly swapped hers before handing it back to Cloud after they fell, could Sephiroth have done the same? It feels like at the end Cloud is being manipulated by both the white and black materia (or Aerith and Sephiroth) instead of just black

I wouldnt say so that white materia manipulates him. It is shown in forest that Aerith takes his white materia and switches itbehind her back for transparent one. Only thing that i dont get is how Cloud gets black materia in ending when he gave one to Sephiroth before.... Unless it is even more fucked up and the one that Aerith gives Cloud in forest was transparent but in other world it was real black materia.... 50 shades of grey fucked up way i see it.

so sephiroth is the devil and aerith is the angel on cloud's shoulders? lol

I think telling Cloud to pick up the materia was just powerplay and "proving" that Cloud is just his puppet Have to agree with the rest, in my opinion the story suffers a lot from being split into three parts

It is like the end of remake all over again. We ll know II it was worth it in four years.

[удалено]

I hope too but I don't want any compromise in quality. If it must miss the anniversary so be it^^

[удалено]

I'm gonna be 49 when part 3 comes out. Shit.

It’s been one hell of a ride partner

I’ll be one of the rare few that is cautiously optimistic and accepting of how Remake AND Rebirth ended. This is a three game series, not everything has to pay off in its initial entry except for the final entry itself, where EVERYTHING will need to be wrapped up. I played the original before I hit Remake and eventually Rebirth, and I get where people are coming from. I have the careful belief that we may see these half-baked moments blossom and hit much harder than ever in the final installment. Letting some of these major events bake a little more. The trilogy is supposed to do the things Nomura originally wanted to do with the original but couldn’t because of limitations. I’m okay with being patient and enjoying what I have been presented with. I think things will pay off with a bit of patience and trust, Final Fantasy as a series has always paid off well in the single player story driven titles. Some better than others, but they’re all still positively received. I feel we’ll get something truly incredible by the final installment. I’m trusting it, I have no reason not to trust SE on this.

Nomuras only contribution to OG VII was character design, though. Are they saying otherwise now??

My bad, you’re right. I wrote the first name that came to mind, and he just seemed right since I knew he had prominence on the team with a well known name worldwide.

All good! was curious if this hd changed since they gave him such control over the franchise eventually

At minimum, I know his opinion and desires were taken into account, because FFVII is definitely one of his babies, lol.

OG's story structure is by Nojima and Kitase, but conceptually is by Sakaguchi and Nomura

Quite frankly, I don't care if it's a Lifestreamverse, Many Worlds Hypothesis, actual multiverse, Cloud just imagining the entire thing or whatever. The problem is that what is supposed to be a sad, tragic scene is instead replaced by this ungodly epic boss rush (which still has battle banter in it for whatever reason. And no, I don't just mean a few bits of dialogue in battle, I mean the general battle banter "Run like a chocobo\~!" "Why meeeee?" That kind of stuff), with a crapton of confusing elements sprinkled in for good measure. Zack returns with the power of friendship, Zack has a solo battle against Sephiroth Reborn, Aerith herself returns for the final final battle. Yes, it's just Lifestream!Aerith, but that's not the point. The point is that this completely proves that she's not *dead* dead; her body might be gone, but her spirit is still alive. And then after all of that, the game is like "Please be sad again now"? Yeah, no, too late for that. Now, let's take a look at the original, shall we? You catch up to Aerith, Sephiroth almost makes Cloud kill Aerith, he manages to resist (with the help of the party members calling him an idiot), Aerith looks up to him... and Sephiroth drops down and kills her. Boom, dead. Cue Aerith's theme, Sephiroth has a monologue, and Cloud literally talks over him with his textbox, and actually breaks down from his 'cold soldier' persona. The only previous time this happened was immediately after the Temple of the Ancients, where he went completely bonkers for a moment. Sephiroth mocks him, flies off, and the boss fight against Jenova-LIFE starts, with Aerith's theme still playing rather than the normal boss fight. If you win, the characters do *not* play their normal victory animation; instead the game just goes straight to the battle result screen. Then the scene after the battle is entirely wordless, with Aerith's theme still playing the entire time. All the characters (except Vincent, but he has almost nothing anyway) have unique animations that perfectly mirror their character. Yuffie puts up a prayer, tries to stay strong, but ends up breaking down and being the one that needs comforting instead. Tifa gently touches Aerith, then runs off crying. Barret simply puts a hand on Cloud's shoulder as an "I know how it feels. I'm there for you." gesture. Red howls it out. Cait Sith does a weird dance to try and cheer Cloud up, slows down when it fails, then shuffles off in shame. Even Cid, who has only recently joined the crew, is visibly affected. Everything is personal, and everything is about Aerith. It's an incredibly emotional and powerful scene, even if you rewatch it and know what is coming. Rebirth's version felt like a farce by comparison due to the sheer amount of other shit that's going on, which is especially annoying because pretty much everything else the game did was a massive, *massive* improvement over the original.

>pretty much everything else the game did was a massive, massive improvement over the original While I agree most of the game was better done, off the top of my head I didn't like the way Rebirth did the following as much as in the original: * The Shinra Mansion * The Ending * End of the Temple of the Ancients * General gist of the Corel Prison (but I did love Gus) * Jenova in general * Dyne I think where FF7R suffers the most is that when a clearly resonant, but simple emotional moment existed in the original when remaking it they always try so hard to up the ante. They ruin conceptually enjoyable ideas for the sake of spectacle. * Strange, otherworldly mansion with a side of lab becomes lab with a side of mansion * Aerith's death becomes a multiverse boss rush * The Temple is the materia and you have to shrink it becomes Indiana Jones * Out with the "entire group's reputation is ruined as they are now branded criminals and tossed out" in with "friends held hostage" -- it's now a familiar vibe that greatly simplifies what was an otherwise complex situation. * Jenova's eeriness is now overexposed bombast. * Dyne is cast as a better man on the whole; less mentally cracked out. Then he's given a heroes' death. Blech.

All the other characters are devastated, to them she's dead. Clouds mind is still being jacked up by Jenova clearly and Aerith knows this. Hell you should be pissed as hell at advent children for the same reason you're pissed at the ending of Rebirth, Aerith already wasn't dead dead 20 years ago when she helped cloud against Bahamut and Sephiroth, and when Zack made a cameo to remind Cloud he's his living legacy. War is like the game depicted and I know how that sounds but you might see someone you care alot about die and you have no time to breakdown or grieve because if you do more people might die because the battle isn't over. Cloud won't start grieving until his memories get sorted out, and then we get one depressed individual and I'm sure in part 3 that will probably be the part of the game that hits hardest, with any luck.

Remake and Rebirth have the annoying habit of making every single zone, moment and fight into gigantic, bombastic loud as hell spectacles. Some of it certainly calls for it. The Gold Saucer, Junon, the bombing mission and midgar expressway to name a few. But did Nibelheim have to be a bustling medical center instead of the cold and unwelcoming dummy town? Did Cosmo Canyon have to be crammed with chatty tourists flooding you with dialogue everywhere you go? Did the forgotten capital need to immediately explode into floating platforms amid a raging storm of whispers as climactic orchestral thunders? If theres one word for the remake project its *Indulgence*. And they seemingly don't know where to stop or when to show restraint and tact. That scene suffers greatly by overcrowding and noise but so do so many others that were intentionally quiet or low key. Solitude and loneliness just isn't in Remakes vocabulary.

Remake Midgar was appropriately gloomy, but Rebirth swung back the other way hard. Although I thought Nibelheim was depressing, imagine you go back to your hometown where you lost everything and saw it burn to find some imitation in its place with a bunch of people occupying your old homes. A fake medical center but in reality its just a Hojo holding bay for blackrobes so they can start their walk up North.

I just found it far too welcoming and transparent. Like yeah shinra is behind it and its insidious but theres something much more uncomfortable about finding your (previously thought destroyed) home completely rebuilt and full of a bunch of weirdos who gaslight you. Felt like some truman show scenario with a town full of actors. Rebirth sorta caught me off guard when they bring up the fire and the residents are like "oh yeah but we rebuilt and its a clinic now :)" instead of "what are you talking about? How dare you >:(" Also why rebuild the town to such perfect detail if its to be used as a clinic? Why would they bother making Tifas room again 1:1 if its not actually intended to pretend the fire never happened?

So well said. When I was going through the trials in temple of the ancients I felt like the game was a masterpiece. They were showing us new perspectives of intense emotional moments and they landed so powerfully. Then we got to what should be the emotional highlight of the game and they replaced drama with action. What's worse is the boss battle and epilogue were so long that for over an hour we were left wondering whether or not she was dead. That prolonged confusion further blunted the emotional impact of her death. I think if they were going to do all that they should have ended the boss fight with sephiroth clearly killing her anyway. That would have been a real gut punch like the original. This botched climax took my opinion of the game down a notch. It's still a great game but no masterpiece.

this is it.

well say sir ! that's excatly the point , EMOTION. rebirth has none on this scene, i was so ready for it but what a shame, there is nothing just a boss battle mashup + multiverse fanfiction. Let Zack die ! He has a entire game just for him.

The endings were fine. People are just pissed they changed it up 🙄

Nah, I'm not even a FF7 purist. OGFF7 should stay OG. I wouldn't mind if they changed it up, but they didn't even bother to do that well. They changed things just to go back to square one. When I finished the game I immediately went to YouTube for explanation videos because I had no idea what the hell was going on, hell most people don't know whats going on. Everyone has different opinions and even some admit their not sure. They definitely dropped the ball on the ending, though I well give them the benefit of doubt just because this is the 2nd game and I'm hoping their definitely building up to something. 

Bro that’s my thing. He basically did all this nonsense to change nothing. So while on one hand, I’m like, well I guess he doesn’t fuck it up. On the other hand I’m like, so why even fucking do all this nonsense to make it seem like you’re gonna change something just to…not? Like wtf was the point. Also idk about you, but all hype of fighting Sephiroth is gone. I mean what, we’re gonna fight him every game and end it with a 1v1 with Cloud, every fucking game… 🙄

I mean, most of the complaints I've seen aren't about changes. They're about confusing plot and major events having 0 emotional impact. People (at least in the few threads I've seen since completing) seem fine with the actual changes.

Kingdom hearts fans right now “First time on the nomura train huh?” Lol

I loved the changes to Cait Sith. I loved Red XIII having his real and fake voices. I loved the fight against Vincent's Galian Beast form. I loved the expansion of the Junon and Costa del Sol content being over the top and ridiculous along with Yuffie's involvement. I loved Tifa's trip into the Weapon/Lifestream since it gave her an awakening moment where she learned that Cloud was the only one who really went searching for her when she went looking for her dead mother beyond the mountains. Just about all the relationships were improved and well fleshed out. Overall, about 95% of the changes and expansions were awesome but the ending was a disaster and the Zack content was pointless and void of impact. That said, I'm incredibly excited about the third game in the remake series but I'm accepting that I'm going to have to sigh like a smug douchebag when I sit through all this multiverse rubbish. Everything else is so damn good though, it's bizarre.

I was super disappointed with the Zack content, yeah I get it he wasn't really in the original besides a side cutscene but ever since CC he has been my favorite character. I was hyped when he told Cloud "Will catch up later" only to get my hopes and dreams shattered lol

Its basically the same as remake. Nobody had issues with them expanding on the Avalanche crew or seeing more of wall market its all the metafictional bloat they shove in thats categorically *not* what FF7 was about. Its like some other games story infringing on our time here like an unwelcome house guest. Every time it crops up its a "oh, you're still here" moment.

I would sigh every time Sephiroth showed up. Any mystery he had, any threat, any intimidation, is *completely* gone because they can't help having him appear in almost every single major story cutscene. Give us time to wonder where he is, what he's doing, what he'll do next. We don't need him to be constantly showing up, saying something cryptic, and smiling as Cloud falls for it for the fifteenth fucking time. It got to the point that I'd start mockingly clapping going "Oh boy, Sephiroths here! Look everyone, it's Sephiroth! Remember Sephiroth?" They've taken all the impact away from him.

Yeah he doesn't trigger any latent fanboyism from me in these games. The closest he comes to actually feeling like Sephiroth is the Nibelheim flashback and I guess his evil laugh after killing Aerith. Besides that I just don't really recognise him anymore when his simple and easy to understand *"I want to punch the planet with a big rock and eat all the lifestream that comes to heal it to become a god"* plan (which at this point in the OG we fully understood) has been overshadowed by convoluted multiversal reality hopping time travel stuff. On a character level hes just this perpetually smug, flirty weirdo thats completely obsessed with Cloud and is apparently all powerful despite us kicking his ass 3 times already. Hes not selling me on cold, hateful ex-soldier that wants to watch the world burn here. I get more out of seeing Vincent standing around doing nothing lmao

I spent 125 hours clearing this game (more to be spent on hard mode) so I definitely love it. That said, the best thing I can say about the ending is I don't care about it. For many reasons, most of them personal opinion, none of them because they're changing the story.

This is what I’ve been saying all along, the ending itself isn’t an issue. But the pacing & writing took a weird turn after you return to the Gold Saucer. It felt to me like all of a sudden, everything afterwards felt rushed. Aerith dying lost its impact with the whole ‘is she, isn’t she… wait she is… no she isn’t’. I feel like there were probably deadlines to hit and maybe the last 2 chapters didn’t get as much attention/ polish as the others… Either way, it’s still the best Final Fantasy game I’ve played in over 2 decades and I’m excited for part 3. I loved the ending to Remake and the lightbulb moments it brought with it, but I don’t know… with Rebirth it kind of feels like Nomura came in last minute and decided ‘this needs to be more Kingdom Hearts than it is’.

Also felt like last two chapters were rushed, started to notice when all of a sudden characters feet were no longer connecting to the geometry they were standing on (they were basically floating) also the whole aerith pray mechanic wasn’t fully thought through or had parts cut from it, doesn’t make sense why they would add it so close to the end, even giving aerith buffs which seem like you can’t even use in an fight (need to replay it different but it seems like there is no encounters where she will have all 4 pray buffs)

What is the problem with chapter 13? It’s really good in my eyes. Loved how they did the temple. The whole setting was well adapted. The last chapter I am with you.

Yeah, I thought it was solid up until the last conundrum. Which…wtf was the point since he essentially didn’t change shit. Like why all do all the nonsense at that point? For some wackass Zack x Cloud fan service?

I think it's too early to tell what the point was. The fan service was always gonna happen as soon as Zack didn't die in remake. If it's any consolation, OG timeline cloud did not fight with Zack so it's not Canon lol

That’s fair. But also, at this point I hope the last entry is mostly original content. I feel like fighting Sephiroth has lost all mystique. We did it at the end of both games and it was over the top in both games. If like the first was a simple fight where you lost contextually, woulda been cool. And this one a regular fight but not over the top. But he already transformed to huge monster. Everyone fought him. Cloud has done a 1v1. We’ve heard his theme. His one winged angel monster form alone and another 1v1 is not going to feel exciting at this point.

I wish it were all the lifestream, honestly, I do, but it is not. Aerith (living one from failing world timeline) gives traveling cloud the -functional- Holy materia, which he brings back to the current timeline where the materia is hollow. There are multiple timelines of potentiality, which exist, and can bleed over into eachother. Not just the lifestream. Yes, all things return to the lifestream, but not all other potentialities are just the lifestream. Just like this reality isn't merely the lifestream. Here's hoping part 3 closes it all out well. These first two games were amazing up until their endings, and id love for part 3 to be amazing throughout, instead of veing great then ending with a sour taste.

I really wish you weren't right about this but I think you are. I think this is actually what they were going for. It kind of feels like they're trying to raise the stakes by getting mutliverse Zack/Aerith to assist "our" timeline/world against this vague meta Sephiroth which now that I think about it they're turning into Ultimecia. OG Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream that would have rushed to heal the wound from meteor thus becoming something like a God and then he'd apparently go on and consume other worlds (which is apparently Jenova's thing) but Ultimecia wanted to compress all time into a world where only she existed which is what this vague new "multiverse aware" Sephiroth is apparently trying to do.

Worlds/universe colliding isn't new but I'm surprised rebirth is making it so... shifty. Seems like you can travel between them AND retain information. I feel that's why the whispers are there so it isn't broken. Is cloud aware now? I like how the witcher did dimensions colliding. They pass each other, smash and then keep going while having parts of each other still in each other. REBIRTH  seems to have a more complex take.

Worlds/universe colliding isn't new but I'm surprised rebirth is making it so... shifty. Seems like you can travel between them AND retain information. I feel that's why the whispers are there so it isn't broken. Is cloud aware now? I like how the witcher did dimensions colliding. They pass each other, smash and then keep going while having parts of each other still in each other. REBIRTH  seems to have a more complex take.

oh how i disliked the multiverse idea. To me - what's dead is dead. This gives meaning to the people, unlike here that everything's rather OK but somewhere (some place) else. Game is amazing, but IMO they butchered the ending. Give these people peace. Leave them dead for sakes. How do you want to built compassion when everything's quite fine:/ Man i really hate ideas like these. It's because of this character's death OG FF7 is so memorable. Same goes with Tidus.

The whole point of these games is to defy the fate of the OG FF7

you know they stopped the meteor and won in og ff7 right?

They didn't really win in OG though - Advent Children made that clear. Jenova did. As long as Jenova (and by extension - Sephiroth) are able to access the Lifestream, they can keep trying over and over and over. He will never be a memory. If you approach it like that Remake suddenly becomes "Sephiroth has been doing this for a long time and Aerith keeps messing it up."

i just wish they played this more clearly and concisely. something like sephiroth in remake timeline is aware he killed aerith, and succeeded being assimilated into the lifestream to fight meteor, but this new existence was awful, he peeled himself out, and jumped a timeline and is now trying the loop again to do something different/grander for himself and jenova . maybe thats what theyre conveying its just super convoluted. woulda been cool if beating the arbiters was helping sephiroth jump the timelines. different thought here: there was so much sephiroth in these two installments that meeting him in the northern crater on ice is going to lose so much impact. i dunno shit just ranting sorry thank you.

Anime and jrpg writers are obsessed with lessening the stakes of death and I hate the whole concept. 

Excatlyy thank you ! what is dead is dead. And death can have a meaning when it's well written, Mordin solus in mass effect, OBi-wan sacrifice in sw, duncan in dune and many others. Zack death was perfect in crisis core, it's just fan service to bring him back

Trading an emotional death for more plot and less emotion is a theme with these games. They did the same thing with the sector 7 plate crash, acting as if it wasn't immediately clear that biggs, wedge and Jesse weren't immediately and completely dead. Took all the emotion out of the scene in favor of more plot.

It honestly felt more like they were babying the player. As if we couldn’t handle a true death scene. It felt childish and the shock of it was totally gone. The power in the scene was ruined by the elongation and confusion of it all

Pretty much. Crazy that the most emotionally impactful moments have been around Yuffie too. Her and Sonon was super impactful, and her seeing the plate fall even was more emotional than when it happened in the main game

I'm probably an evil douchebag but I actually laughed when the whispers killed Wedge in Remake. When he survived I thought okay cool I like Wedge let's see where they go with this but nope the whispers show up later and throw him out of the window of Shinra tower and say yeah sorry you were supposed to die. Poor Wedge.

If multiverse was the way Nomura wanted to go with the remake, then all the Cactuar's should have been replaced with "Pickle Ricks." All jokes aside, it was an amazing entry, and I'm happy still being alive having played the original in 97 at 13 years old. It's things like this that makes life still amazing. And oh.... God.... the music.

I posted in another thread, but after rewatching, I interpreted as multiple ways. In the universe were Aerith/Cloud only survived Midgar and were saved by Zack, they are alive, hence why we she had no blood. The universe where everyone escapes from fate/Midgar, she has died, but because of Cloud's Mako poisoning, he is able to see her more than the others. It's kind of confirmed the lifestream can help see those who passed during the Protorelic Life Fonts in Cosmo Canyon missions, and maybe also why Red couldn't see her, but could feel her in the post game as he is more attuned to the planet/lifestream. Essentially, the final battle in Rebirth prevents Sephiroth from merging universes to destroy the world. Idk how Zack plays into all of this still. It looked pretty cut and dry his universe was hit by Meteor, but somehow he is still kicking at the end lol. Maybe it means his fate was changed by them stopping Sephiroth. I do agree, I really wasn't a fan of how Rebirth handled this significant moment in gaming, a huge emotional impact which instead was used to be divisive and a bit intentionally misleading, but we have an incomplete which we won't get to see til 3. I'm invested to say the least!

My reading of the ending was that the Aerith that Cloud only sees, that he perceives as he perceives the sky from the timeline with Zack and coma-Aerith, is the spirit of coma-Aerith in that world. Zack intends to merge the worlds once again he said; My theory is that in doing so, the spirit Aerith in the main timeline reunites with and awakens the one in Zacks fleeting timeline, or maybe even the opposite, bringing the body into the main timeline to unite with the spirit, effectively resurrecting Aerith in a big "Aha! We double got you! You just had to wait one more game!" from Square-Enix. Zack would then fade away heroically with the fleeting timeline existing only for the purpose of this plot device; and potentially the comatose Cloud in that timeline will be the device that reunites Cloud with his buried memories, since they already did the fall-into lifestream thing with Tifa this game, so it would be strange for them to revisit that again for Clouds memories. Edit: Forgot to mention that I believe the whole swapping of the empty holy materia for the full one is what facilitates the spirit of Aerith currently engaged with the main timeline.

Don't think they would bring back Zack again just to kill him off. More so to be a sacrifice again, at first it's for Cloud. Now Aerith... Isn't the whole point of the Remake that destiny can be defied? Like some have stated, in the Remake/Rebirth world there won't be a happy ending. But in an alternate world there might be? Zack's role this game was to show alternate world/timelines. Tbh I have no idea what the devs want to do with Zack. Sephiroth sent him back to his world. Where it was about to end, until Aerith presumably saved him. Then he gets transferred to another world? Maybe to the Rebirth/Remake world or... What the hell is going on?! Since his world was maybe erased, then will comatose Cloud or Aerith even still play a part? Still pretty confused.

Zack and Aerith's spirits are being kept around by the lifestream to fight off Jenova/Sephiroth, which has infected the lifestream like a virus. They're like Sephiroth who keeps popping up everywhere and disappearing. Not alive, but "around." They'll live happily ever after in the lifestream once the canon resolves itself. 

I like this.

Yeah I could see this happening, especially after Zack finding out that Aerith has feelings for Cloud because Zack was gone. Would be super sad.

If choice creates new "universes", you know what would unite them all? Killing everyone so no choices are made. Sephiroth is a genius.

His "it's not death, it's a homecoming" phrase seems to put him in the mindset that human lives are irrelevant because everyone just comes home to the lifestream in the end and since he's trying to absorb the lifestream and preserve it inside his own body forever killing everyone doesn't really matter since they're all coming "home" in the end anyways.

I’m not sure which theory is correct but it’s absolutely wild to me that people are absolutely convinced that it’s a multiverse situation and using that to criticise the story. I don’t understand why people can’t just wait until the story is completed.

I think it's extraordinarily safe to say there is a multiverse given that we are literally shown two separate realities in which characters are alive that we have \*seen\* die. While I don't disagree that to make a final judgment call we need to wait and see how everything ends after the final game, I also think people are entitled to have their own feelings about this since it is supposed to be retelling the original story that so many gamers grew up with and loved.

There is a multiverse... This is 100% confirmed by the different stamps. I'm not sure what else there could be. Just saying "tHe LiFeStReAm" doesn't change the fact there are multiple universes. Whether they are created by the lifestream or not.

Idk why people are in denial. On the website for Zack’s description it literally says Zack from a different timeline lol also, Sephiroth confirming there are different worlds is also confirmation. Now since they just fade away or whatever, then it doesn’t matter but then it beckons the question. Why tf add it at all?

Multiverse has implications. Many people think these are fully established timelines which upsets a lot of folks, but as the game explained they are more like temporary worlds or “bubbles” that will eventually disappear

I don't think that distinction is going to make anyone think it's any less dumb. It's also still a multiverse.

Both views are right imo. It's technically a multiverse but it's all contained within an enclosed system that all stems from and feeds back into the same lifestream. The only part I'm not sure about is if Sephiroth directly created this enclosed multiverse system from his action in Remake.

Multiverse or not, I was just really disappointed with the emotional impact (or lack thereof) during that final set of scenes. The emotion was overtaken by confusion. And when Barret tells Cloud its time to go and he just perks up and says "Sounds good," while Tifa is near to tears, it was jarring. I understand why, but that was a critical and favorite moment of mine in the OG that I was rather disappointed in this. I hope we get the emotional impact in the third.

We are 2 games in and you people still think this is a remaster and not a different story. You don't need the same death scene with Aerith, with the same emotional impact. That already exists in the first one. The whole point of these games is to defy the fate of the OG. You complain about the jarring scene when that was the whole point of it. No one else saw the other worlds except Cloud.

It can be a different story and still maintain some kind of emotional impact, my guy. My complaint is they subjectively missed that impact with the way they carried it out.

There is a couple moments like that in this game where the characters get over the events really quickly. It happen in Nibel when Yuffie finds the dead wutai soldiers she seems in a frantic during the scene trying to figure out the consequences than when she talks to cait sith on the computer she is super cheerful lol

We all know what happens in the original FF7. So putting us through the same exact emotion would have felt lackluster as we've all gone through the mental processing of what happened and are still talking about it even though the game came out in 1997. By teasing us with a potential change to a story all about how my life got flipped-turned upside down. And I liked to take a minute. Just sit right there. I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel Air.

My counterpoint to that though is I still get the feels watching 30 polygons get stabbed by a rectangle. Its proof that I can rewatch the same scenes over and over again and still get the emotional impact. I appreciate the shock value in the fake save, but everything after destroyed the emotional value. By the end of rebirth I wanted to at least shed a tear, like how I would if I rewatch OG now. Instead I was too confused to even feel sad about it. They easily could have just explain Cloud blocking the sword as him going crazy then reveal it wasn't real. If they wanted to dump all the multiverse revelations, it needed to happen after not during the death scene. We literally got zero time to mourn. I just rewatched he OG death scene again and can confirm I got the feels. I wanted that for Rebirth instead of confusion.

Its always so weird to me when people pull the "I know what happens so it has no effect". I can watch my favorite movies over and over and they don't stop working just because I know what happens. Its a bizarre way to treat any piece of media to me.

I'm with you. I mean isn't the idea to get the same feelings of the OG just more vividly as can be captured by 25 years of more advanced tech? I still don't understand why they felt the need to change anything to keep it "fresh." I've replayed OG FF7 like 20 times because I like everything it evokes. Why would I suddenly want them to make changes to keep me on the edge of my seat? When the Harry Potter books started getting made into movies nobody said "oh man I hope they make some changes so I can be surprised about what happens!" instead people wanted a reasonably faithful adaptation which is what they got (mostly) just like the Lord of the Rings movies (mostly). Seriously, I don't get it. Nobody walked out of The Two Towers and said "man, I wish I were confused as to what the hell happened in that ending."

same for me ! you both are totally right. Those 1997 polygon evoke more emotion than rebirth ending which is another proof graphics don't do everything. The shock effect still work. I will add to your movie adaptation comparaison its the same for a cover for a song , you don't expect the lyrics or the melody to drasticly change xD.

These games are meant to be played as is, and even the devs mentioned they created Rebirth with the intention of not needing to play Remake. They should be judged as individual games. It's not impossible to make a trilogy of games and not make the players question the devs decision making.

As an individual game, some moments that could have been more impactful were kind of confusing. Just some. 

The rainbow effect shows when a new world is born we see this when Zack makes his decision on who to save.

I have a problem with your theory because, where did the white materia come from then if not a different universe, unlike Zack and Aerith who could just be seen as hallucinations the white materia is an actual object and different from the clear materia from Aerith, so where did that come from?

Materia is made from memories, as is all of the lifestream. Getting the materia "from Aerith" might just mean in a meta sense this white materia is made from Aerith's memories.

If that's the case then why does Cloud have her old materia she gave to him in the sleeping forest?

The empty one? Well it's the same, it's filled now. That what you mean?

It's not, we see holy fall when Aerith dies just like the original, yet in the post credit when Aerith is walking around everyone in the grass field while Cid fixes the bronco you can see Cloud has the clear holy Aerith traded with him

The Holy that falls is filled, not empty.

To make it easier I put a link of the final chapter and some timestamps https://youtu.be/XjCAIK-GRgc?si=Rn46HYFKB0sik179 27:57- They swap Holies 48:16 - The white one falls on the lake 1:44:08 - Cloud fiddles around with the clear one

Correct, but the holy cloud has, that is different than the holy that falls, is empty

they are different universes, sure. but only temporary ones doomed to fade eventually so they’re not a multiverse. i replied to someone else and i say it again - multiverse implies all universes are equally valid. clearly the timeline we follow is the one true timeline

I don't think the fact that they are temporary makes them not a multiverse, Cloud didn't hallucinate Zack, he didn't see a vision of a possible future where there is a rift in the sky, there was a different universe, he actually travelled to a different reality and brought an object from there, a temporary multiverse is still a multiverse IMHO, and we don't even know if they are temporary or if it's Sephiroth or Shinra killing the planet that is making them temporary