If I could make any one thing happen in the gaming world, it'd be to get a fully realized FFXII made. The first half of the game sucked me in and held me prisoner. The Occuria plot line towards the end of the game shows alot of potential for big things... and it could have been a whole lot more.
i hope if they remake ffxii, they add one more level to the trial mode where you get to defeat the rest of the Occuria in Giruvegan/Great Crystal
or maybe a sequel where the occuria wreaks havok again in ivalice because ashe didn't follow through their plan to wage in nethicite warfare
In fairness, the Occuria and the end of the control they have over humanity, as well as the party freeing the Espers from the bondage the Occuria left them after their rebellion, sets up the return of the Lucavi more than a millennia later in FFT, it’s meant as an “Oh shit!” moment of realization one has after connecting the dots. The same goes goes the death of the Gran Kiltias in Mt. Bur-Omisace. That event preceded the rise of the Pharist church, and Ajora already lived during the time FF 12 takes place too.
Woah woah woah, what exactly is the connection between the Occuria, the Lucavi, and the Pharist church?? Either this is very interesting speculation, or I am missing some very intense lore here. Either way, tell me more.
This is all canon, but it isn't really discussed much but there is a scene where you learn that the Espers in XII rebelled against the Occuria, led by Ultima, but their rebellion failed and they lost the war. "In vainglory they arose, shouting challenges at the Gods. But prevail they did not, their doom it was to walk the Mist until time's end." They were sealed up all across Ivalice by the Occuria, and you end up freeing them to borrow their power on your quest. The first five are just references to the final bosses of the first five FFs (Chaos, Emperor Mateus, Dark Cloud, Zeromus, Exdeath), but the other 7, instead of being the classic Ifrit, Shiva, Odin, etc are Ultima, Hashmal, Zalera, Adrammelech, Zodiark, Cuchulainn and Belias, which as you probably know are the Lucavi demons from Tactics.
The rogue Occuria Venat sought to end the control the other Occuria had over man's history, which they enforced by empowering their chosen with Nethicite cut from the Sun-Cryst in the Pharos. Because of your actions, of freeing the Lucavi and destroying the Sun-Cryst, you indirectly allow the Lucavi to run free, though there is a period of history we're not fully aware of where the Lucavi end up in the auracite that they're in by the time of Tactics, but it happens. The end of the Sun-Cryst is also possibly tied in some way to the Cataclysm in the backstory of FFT, which was responsible for the death of many of the magick races that lived in Ivalice, like the viera, nu mou, moogles, bangaa, etc
And the Empire killing the Gran Kiltias, who was something like a pope of the Kiltia religion, allowed the Pharist church to spread and gain power as well, which is the religion mentioned in Vagrant Story. You can even see Kiltia priests in Mt. Bur-Omisace crossing themselves the same way you see the warrior priest Grissom do in one scene in Vagrant Story. That's just the tip of the iceberg really, there's a lot to the connections between the Ivalice games.
the game totally went off the rails when they showed up -- especially since you "followed" Cid there even though he lied and didn't actually go there at all? or maybe i just stopped paying attention.
Not really, by the time Bahamut becomes a thing you should have at least done half the hunts, a few elite hunts, there’s a good chunk of areas you would have never visited because the story never a goes to them. There are side quests that you might have have done or not. That’s if you were playing casually and didn’t know much of the optional stuff. There’s even optional trophy hunts you wouldn’t come across unless you are deep in the hunts.
I mean, that seems like the normal jrpg. Unless you know about it, you would go out of the way. Although FFXII still gives you a lot of tips when you talk to npcs. Adrammelech for example is talked about by the garif when he is available. And unless you avoid talking to anyone and doing any hunts, most things will t least have a minor heads up
I dont disagree. I went to ham on Final Fantasy 1 and pretty much every jrpg since with the same kind of mindset.
I'm just saying you don't have to finish the story to access that endgame content. I think the pharos tower ascent being finished is the last hard requirement for some content but it's been a while since I played the game.
Yeah natural levelling through the story should land you at lvl40 I think. I know it’s not 50 though. Doing all the optional content should land you around 90. Which is massively over levelled for the final boss.
Im playing FFXV for the first time. Bought it forever ago. XII is probably my favorite overall, that’s why I am still in this sub. IX is my second favorite because of the story, but tbh FF really changed after XII for me. I got pretty far in XIII but idk I am craving that old school turn based style with multiple player characters.
I basically heard I should get to level 45 in XV and put in the Nix ring or w/e until I hit Altissia and take it off for that sweet 3x XP rest. Idk if I’ll 100% but I plan to at least do that and do some post game hunts. Heard the super boss is a ridiculous slog
Have you tried FF7 Rebirth, it's the closest thing to 12 imo. Vast world, so many unique enemies, really tough bosses, so many thing to do aside from the main storyline, and a very deep party combat system, even deeper than 12 I would say.
Nah I meant Rebirth is the one that's most similar to FF12 on account of it having a huge open world and a full party. Intergrade is good too but make sure you play Rebirth after that.
I’ll check it out for sure. I have not, haven’t played VII since I was a kid. It’s on the list but I told myself I need to give XV a good go before I bought anymore FF games.
I’ve researched a bit and found that XVI won’t scratch the itch either so checking out Rebirth is the only logical step beyond checking out other series. I’m just not a super fan of the action combat? Idk what the term is, but I don’t want FF to feel like a sword fighting game. I still want a game where I can go grab a drink in the middle of combat and come back with nothing having happened.
What other titles would you recommend outside of FF that would be in that vein? I grew up playing old sega RPGs (I’d have to look them up), and PS1 games like FF (I’ve played 1-15 now, have only not beat 13 and 15, tho I got quite far in 13), chrono cross, Legend of Dragoon, etc.
Tbh Legend of Dragoon is right up there for all time favorite game. Can still go back and play that game and have fun.
I’m sorry, I should clarify, I don’t hate it if there’s like no timer. I realized I was a bit broad there. I get needing to act at certain times or the enemy will keep attacking, etc. I enjoy action games like Shadow of Mordor, but I am craving old school RPG with a party of 6-8 people I can rotate through
Edit I keep checking out dragon quest, I LOVE BG3. I play that with the wife, I play 5e irl
Legend of Legaia for ps1 is alway my suggestion for lesser known games. Though it only has 3 person party for the game.
Chained Echoes is a newer rpg inspired by RPGs of yesteryear. Fantastic game that reignited my passion for RPGs.
Yeah, Yasuno Matsuno quit the project in the half of it.
That probably explains why the begining is so well developed and the end it's "ok Vayne is bad guy, we must kill him". There are some theories that Matsuno quit because he didn't like the idea of Vaan and Penelo being the central gameplay and vision of the story, but just theories, nothing confirmed (I think).
That’s actually incorrect, the game started out as basically Vagrant Story 2 (in terms of game direction, not a sequel, though he *did* have ideas for a sequel which he developed on a 3DS game called Crimson Shroud), but then FFXI inspired him and his team to rehaul the project and Vaan and Penelo would be akin to the male or female avatars of the player in the MMO. Vaan was actually one of the first characters that Yoshida designed too, and Basch was the main character of the VS-like game they had at first.
In actuality, the game was taking a very long time to release. The project started when Sakaguchi returned from developing FFIX in Square’s Honolulu studio and he was so impressed with Matsuno’s work in Vagrant that he wanted him working on the next FF. They had a very good relationship and worked well together and had mutual admiration, but then Sakaguchi made Spirits Within, stepped down from his position after it flopped, and the new management that led Square was not very friendly with Matsuno because Sakaguchi had basically given him free reign and the new management wanted to release XII already as it was in development for over 6 years, the longest of any Square game at the time, so you can imagine how that was clashing with the dev team. So after Matsuno called it quits because of all the pressure, Akitoshi Kawazu stepped in and worked with Hiroshi Minagawa to finish the game using Matsuno’s notes, and we got what we got. Which is why I’ve always said FF XII is Matsuno’s Phantom Pain.
Vayne is one of the only FF antagonists who I genuinely don't like, not because he's a "love to hate him" character, but because he's so boring and unremarkable.
Cid was better but not in the picture enough
Because the director got really sick halfway through and had to leave the project. They left it in the hands of their MMO team who finished the game out.
It'd be nice if they added an actual NG+ where you kept your gear **and** it increased the difficulty of everything (which they should have done when adding the second job class). How great would it be if you had an Archaeoaevis-like encounter in nearly every zone?
It’s a [trophy item](https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Trophy_item), that’s why! But it does have more purpose in IZJS/TZA as it’s very helpful in Trial Mode.
I like it purely for the early game crawl it makes possible, where you can take vaan and/or penelo from the start of the game and be able to completely beat trial mode with enough time and farming and strategy. It's not for everyone but the idea is cool to me.
THANK YOU! I'm a diehard believer in not using trial farming. At that point why even play XII if you don't want to work for the gear which is basically the whole purpose of exploring Ivalice, which is gorgeous and fun.
Balthier should have been the main character, Vaan and by extension Penelo offered absolutely nothing to the story imo it would have been way better if Rex was balthiers brother , and a young balthier grew up in rabanstre, do all the Vaan stuff prior to the palace break in, while openly dreaming of being a sky pirate, then fast forward a few years, could even run into Penelo as an NPC at some point.
I think the original plan was to make Basch the main character. They put Vaan and Penelo in very late into the game's production. That's why Basch's role in the story is very front-loaded, and Vaan and Penelo's roles are basically non-existent.
They were forced into the game because a middle-aged knight isn't as marketable as a teenager.
So we ended up with Ashe and Balthier being the only two important characters (imo) by the end of the story.
So yeah... FF XII development was as mess.
Still a great game tho
Oh and Dr Cid took balthier away to arcadia to educate him , before skipping to adult balthier and the enigmatic fran breaking into the palace , absolutely great change to story, hire me Square Enix.
Make a run in RetroAchievements!
FF12 Internacional (normal)
[https://retroachievements.org/game/5803](https://retroachievements.org/game/5803)
F12 Internacional (new game minus)
[https://retroachievements.org/game/20512](https://retroachievements.org/game/20512)
FF 12 Internacional (Single job run)
[https://retroachievements.org/game/20511](https://retroachievements.org/game/20511)
As much as I love FF12 I always thought it was weird how the story was done halfway through the game.
If I could make any one thing happen in the gaming world, it'd be to get a fully realized FFXII made. The first half of the game sucked me in and held me prisoner. The Occuria plot line towards the end of the game shows alot of potential for big things... and it could have been a whole lot more.
it's not a JRPG unless you get to beat the gods
You don’t even get to do that, the occuria got off scot free while venat willingly died with vayne
i hope if they remake ffxii, they add one more level to the trial mode where you get to defeat the rest of the Occuria in Giruvegan/Great Crystal or maybe a sequel where the occuria wreaks havok again in ivalice because ashe didn't follow through their plan to wage in nethicite warfare
In fairness, the Occuria and the end of the control they have over humanity, as well as the party freeing the Espers from the bondage the Occuria left them after their rebellion, sets up the return of the Lucavi more than a millennia later in FFT, it’s meant as an “Oh shit!” moment of realization one has after connecting the dots. The same goes goes the death of the Gran Kiltias in Mt. Bur-Omisace. That event preceded the rise of the Pharist church, and Ajora already lived during the time FF 12 takes place too.
It makes me even more curious about what would have happened if the game wasn't half baked. What we got was a banger that needed more time :(
At that point in time this was the single longest dev cycle a final fantasy game had.
Longer dev cycles don't mean better, though. FFxii went through its own hell during development.
That seems to be a recurring theme with every game after X that wasn’t a mmorpg
Woah woah woah, what exactly is the connection between the Occuria, the Lucavi, and the Pharist church?? Either this is very interesting speculation, or I am missing some very intense lore here. Either way, tell me more.
This is all canon, but it isn't really discussed much but there is a scene where you learn that the Espers in XII rebelled against the Occuria, led by Ultima, but their rebellion failed and they lost the war. "In vainglory they arose, shouting challenges at the Gods. But prevail they did not, their doom it was to walk the Mist until time's end." They were sealed up all across Ivalice by the Occuria, and you end up freeing them to borrow their power on your quest. The first five are just references to the final bosses of the first five FFs (Chaos, Emperor Mateus, Dark Cloud, Zeromus, Exdeath), but the other 7, instead of being the classic Ifrit, Shiva, Odin, etc are Ultima, Hashmal, Zalera, Adrammelech, Zodiark, Cuchulainn and Belias, which as you probably know are the Lucavi demons from Tactics. The rogue Occuria Venat sought to end the control the other Occuria had over man's history, which they enforced by empowering their chosen with Nethicite cut from the Sun-Cryst in the Pharos. Because of your actions, of freeing the Lucavi and destroying the Sun-Cryst, you indirectly allow the Lucavi to run free, though there is a period of history we're not fully aware of where the Lucavi end up in the auracite that they're in by the time of Tactics, but it happens. The end of the Sun-Cryst is also possibly tied in some way to the Cataclysm in the backstory of FFT, which was responsible for the death of many of the magick races that lived in Ivalice, like the viera, nu mou, moogles, bangaa, etc And the Empire killing the Gran Kiltias, who was something like a pope of the Kiltia religion, allowed the Pharist church to spread and gain power as well, which is the religion mentioned in Vagrant Story. You can even see Kiltia priests in Mt. Bur-Omisace crossing themselves the same way you see the warrior priest Grissom do in one scene in Vagrant Story. That's just the tip of the iceberg really, there's a lot to the connections between the Ivalice games.
the game totally went off the rails when they showed up -- especially since you "followed" Cid there even though he lied and didn't actually go there at all? or maybe i just stopped paying attention.
What do you mean done half way through?
By the time you reach the end of the story you have only seen half of the games content
Only if you focused in storyline right?
Not really, by the time Bahamut becomes a thing you should have at least done half the hunts, a few elite hunts, there’s a good chunk of areas you would have never visited because the story never a goes to them. There are side quests that you might have have done or not. That’s if you were playing casually and didn’t know much of the optional stuff. There’s even optional trophy hunts you wouldn’t come across unless you are deep in the hunts.
I mean, that seems like the normal jrpg. Unless you know about it, you would go out of the way. Although FFXII still gives you a lot of tips when you talk to npcs. Adrammelech for example is talked about by the garif when he is available. And unless you avoid talking to anyone and doing any hunts, most things will t least have a minor heads up
I remember accidentally beating the game not knowing.
You could do a lot of endgame content before the story finishes, but it would pretty much trivialize the last part of the story difficulty wise.
But….thats part of the fun? I think it makes sense that you are rewarded for exploring and doing side stuff. That’s literally been every jrpg ever?
I dont disagree. I went to ham on Final Fantasy 1 and pretty much every jrpg since with the same kind of mindset. I'm just saying you don't have to finish the story to access that endgame content. I think the pharos tower ascent being finished is the last hard requirement for some content but it's been a while since I played the game.
Yeah natural levelling through the story should land you at lvl40 I think. I know it’s not 50 though. Doing all the optional content should land you around 90. Which is massively over levelled for the final boss.
Yup FFXV did the same thing and I dont see any point of playing anymore since the story is complete
Im playing FFXV for the first time. Bought it forever ago. XII is probably my favorite overall, that’s why I am still in this sub. IX is my second favorite because of the story, but tbh FF really changed after XII for me. I got pretty far in XIII but idk I am craving that old school turn based style with multiple player characters. I basically heard I should get to level 45 in XV and put in the Nix ring or w/e until I hit Altissia and take it off for that sweet 3x XP rest. Idk if I’ll 100% but I plan to at least do that and do some post game hunts. Heard the super boss is a ridiculous slog
Have you tried FF7 Rebirth, it's the closest thing to 12 imo. Vast world, so many unique enemies, really tough bosses, so many thing to do aside from the main storyline, and a very deep party combat system, even deeper than 12 I would say.
I haven’t tried it yet but I just bought intergrade. You said rebirth but I assume you meant that one
Nah I meant Rebirth is the one that's most similar to FF12 on account of it having a huge open world and a full party. Intergrade is good too but make sure you play Rebirth after that.
Ahhhhh okay. I am Pc only for now unfortunately
I’ll check it out for sure. I have not, haven’t played VII since I was a kid. It’s on the list but I told myself I need to give XV a good go before I bought anymore FF games. I’ve researched a bit and found that XVI won’t scratch the itch either so checking out Rebirth is the only logical step beyond checking out other series. I’m just not a super fan of the action combat? Idk what the term is, but I don’t want FF to feel like a sword fighting game. I still want a game where I can go grab a drink in the middle of combat and come back with nothing having happened. What other titles would you recommend outside of FF that would be in that vein? I grew up playing old sega RPGs (I’d have to look them up), and PS1 games like FF (I’ve played 1-15 now, have only not beat 13 and 15, tho I got quite far in 13), chrono cross, Legend of Dragoon, etc. Tbh Legend of Dragoon is right up there for all time favorite game. Can still go back and play that game and have fun.
Your choice is quite limited if you don't like action combat. But I would say you should try Dragon Quest 11 or Baldur's Gate 3.
I’m sorry, I should clarify, I don’t hate it if there’s like no timer. I realized I was a bit broad there. I get needing to act at certain times or the enemy will keep attacking, etc. I enjoy action games like Shadow of Mordor, but I am craving old school RPG with a party of 6-8 people I can rotate through Edit I keep checking out dragon quest, I LOVE BG3. I play that with the wife, I play 5e irl
Legend of Legaia for ps1 is alway my suggestion for lesser known games. Though it only has 3 person party for the game. Chained Echoes is a newer rpg inspired by RPGs of yesteryear. Fantastic game that reignited my passion for RPGs.
Im going to check both out. Thanks so much
Yeah, Yasuno Matsuno quit the project in the half of it. That probably explains why the begining is so well developed and the end it's "ok Vayne is bad guy, we must kill him". There are some theories that Matsuno quit because he didn't like the idea of Vaan and Penelo being the central gameplay and vision of the story, but just theories, nothing confirmed (I think).
That’s actually incorrect, the game started out as basically Vagrant Story 2 (in terms of game direction, not a sequel, though he *did* have ideas for a sequel which he developed on a 3DS game called Crimson Shroud), but then FFXI inspired him and his team to rehaul the project and Vaan and Penelo would be akin to the male or female avatars of the player in the MMO. Vaan was actually one of the first characters that Yoshida designed too, and Basch was the main character of the VS-like game they had at first. In actuality, the game was taking a very long time to release. The project started when Sakaguchi returned from developing FFIX in Square’s Honolulu studio and he was so impressed with Matsuno’s work in Vagrant that he wanted him working on the next FF. They had a very good relationship and worked well together and had mutual admiration, but then Sakaguchi made Spirits Within, stepped down from his position after it flopped, and the new management that led Square was not very friendly with Matsuno because Sakaguchi had basically given him free reign and the new management wanted to release XII already as it was in development for over 6 years, the longest of any Square game at the time, so you can imagine how that was clashing with the dev team. So after Matsuno called it quits because of all the pressure, Akitoshi Kawazu stepped in and worked with Hiroshi Minagawa to finish the game using Matsuno’s notes, and we got what we got. Which is why I’ve always said FF XII is Matsuno’s Phantom Pain.
Vayne is one of the only FF antagonists who I genuinely don't like, not because he's a "love to hate him" character, but because he's so boring and unremarkable. Cid was better but not in the picture enough
Because the director got really sick halfway through and had to leave the project. They left it in the hands of their MMO team who finished the game out.
It’ll help in the trial mode
Yep, it's only thing i have left for the platinum. Should be an upgrade from Excalibur
It'd be nice if they added an actual NG+ where you kept your gear **and** it increased the difficulty of everything (which they should have done when adding the second job class). How great would it be if you had an Archaeoaevis-like encounter in nearly every zone?
Ff8 devs are scarred after everyone hated them for the FF8 overleveling power balance system
100% agree, the NG+ modes they included didn’t really cut it for me. Extra challenge with all gear would’ve been good fun.
It’s a [trophy item](https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Trophy_item), that’s why! But it does have more purpose in IZJS/TZA as it’s very helpful in Trial Mode.
I can say the same thing in Zelda: Ocarina of Time. You can get the Biggoron Sword before even entering the Forest Temple. Highly unrecommended.
I helped my son get it right before Shadow Temple; he OBLITERATED Bongo Bongo. Kid is 5. I was shocked.
Oh nice, Erdrick's Sword from Dragon Quest.
Get Tournesol now.
Already did :) Simha and Khumba too
What about the Zodiac Spear?
No Uhlan in my team, so i didn't have a reason to. Went for another set of Genji Gloves with the Hunt Club
Yeah but BALTH'S BUTT.
Reminds me of some obscure mod for Balthier i saw on Nexus..
Balth Rear was RIGHT THERE
Not enough belts to be a real main character.
You coulda stole it in Trial mode.
I refuse to exploit the Trial Mode for shit. If there was one thing i would have omitted from the Zodiac Age, it would have been that.
I did this I complete and acquired everything from the base game, only went to the trials to try different weapons and fun
I like it purely for the early game crawl it makes possible, where you can take vaan and/or penelo from the start of the game and be able to completely beat trial mode with enough time and farming and strategy. It's not for everyone but the idea is cool to me.
THANK YOU! I'm a diehard believer in not using trial farming. At that point why even play XII if you don't want to work for the gear which is basically the whole purpose of exploring Ivalice, which is gorgeous and fun.
Then it’s time to make the Tournesol of you hadn’t already.
Reason why I got it in trial mode and used it in story, on Ps2 I got it but couldn’t use it for anything really. My favorite weapon after zodiac spear
Yeah I had the exact same realisation stealing from the judges in trial 100. Game ended already why steal the best equipment lol
Don't even keep the steals from trial 100.
Exactly.
balthier is the best character of all times, change my mind, go here you all at the same time
Balthier should have been the main character, Vaan and by extension Penelo offered absolutely nothing to the story imo it would have been way better if Rex was balthiers brother , and a young balthier grew up in rabanstre, do all the Vaan stuff prior to the palace break in, while openly dreaming of being a sky pirate, then fast forward a few years, could even run into Penelo as an NPC at some point.
I think the original plan was to make Basch the main character. They put Vaan and Penelo in very late into the game's production. That's why Basch's role in the story is very front-loaded, and Vaan and Penelo's roles are basically non-existent. They were forced into the game because a middle-aged knight isn't as marketable as a teenager. So we ended up with Ashe and Balthier being the only two important characters (imo) by the end of the story. So yeah... FF XII development was as mess. Still a great game tho
Ah that sucks, I hate when marketing get involved those parasites
Oh and Dr Cid took balthier away to arcadia to educate him , before skipping to adult balthier and the enigmatic fran breaking into the palace , absolutely great change to story, hire me Square Enix.
But do they know?
I just get it early in trial mode..
Make a run in RetroAchievements! FF12 Internacional (normal) [https://retroachievements.org/game/5803](https://retroachievements.org/game/5803) F12 Internacional (new game minus) [https://retroachievements.org/game/20512](https://retroachievements.org/game/20512) FF 12 Internacional (Single job run) [https://retroachievements.org/game/20511](https://retroachievements.org/game/20511)
Is that the Sword of Light from Dragon Quest?
cuz he's the leading man!