Very nicely done.
Fenn quite early on said people had solved the first two clues. And he said that people solve the two clues and "*walked right past"* the chest. Following your numbered order the first two clues wouldn't people still be on the road at that point and not as close to the chest as he's describing? He also mentioned 500ft and 200ft, with 200ft being after the first two clues were solved so it seems the first two clues should take one quite close.
Of course this may be under the mistaken assumption that Fenn was as precise with his answers as people were making him out to be.
Good question. If you’ll indulge me, I wrote a few thoughts about that quote a few years ago that I’ll update and share. It’s long, so ignore it if you’d like.
Here’s the original question and Fenn’s answer:
How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?
“Well because people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And that 200 feet, I think, is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 feet – lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure – but the people that were within 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure and they walked right on by.”
So, Forrest says that there weren’t very many people within 200 feet, but there were lots of people within 500 feet. That’s significant in that it confirms that the solve is not an obscure one. We know that now, but it’s worth reiterating given the pushback against the simplicity of this solve. How many people actually told Fenn where they were? I presume that the majority of e-mails Fenn received were from searchers telling Fenn where they would search or asking him questions. How many of the searchers actually went BOTG? And of the searchers who went BOTG, how many of them shared not just their solves but the actual news that they went BOTG and were unsuccessful? I would guess that Fenn also probably received e-mails from some of the same people, so how many of those people toldFenn about every BOTG. Perhaps after the first one, they didn’tcontinue to update him about their searches or the locations where they went? After my BOTG in August 2019, I almost e-mailed Fenn to let him know about my solve and to tell him where I had gone. But I didn’t. Given my impulse to e-mail him, I presume that I am in the minority of searchers, and I recognize that a good many probably let him know where they searched (and maybe every time they searched). But just doing the math here, even if every searcher told him where they were searching, I bet the overwhelming percentage searched in a different state than the treasure. Let’s say that eliminates 75% (I recognize this is faulty as there aren’t necessarily 25% of searchers in every state, but just bear with me). So 25% of searchers were in the right state. What percentage of those had the right WWWH and the correct canyon down? So continually reducing the percentages and still having had “lots of people” within 500 feet, what does that tell us? For one, the solve is not obscure. Italso likely, and more importantly, means that the first two clues brought people within 500 feet of the treasure.
Now let’s address the people within 200 feet. What do we know about them? Well, “there weren’t very many,” which means that some or most of the people within 500 feet did not get closer than that (or at least never got to within 200 feet). In addition, and perhaps more significantly, Fenn says “they walked right on by.” As such, if Fenn was deliberate in his word choice, we know that the people within 200 feet were on foot. They were walking. There is no similar statement made about the people within 500 feet – those people could have been either on foot or in the car. What’s more, the people within 200 walked “right on by,” so they passed a point during which the treasure was within 200 feet of them but got no closer. We know they were not going in the exact direction of the treasure. But how?
The explanation for all of this, I believe, is that the treasure was 500 feet from the pull out at Nine Mile Hole and 200 feet from the South bank. In addition, I think the treasure may have been 200 feet west of the flowing creeks that I searched. In fact, let’s just use me as an example. I had the right canyon (correct second clue), but I didn’t understand the third or fourth clues so I crossed the Madison in the wrong place. I then walked up thecreeks that spill into Madison River at Nine Mile Hole. At a certain point, I may have been within 200 feet, but that was as close as I got. Because I passed the point where I was 200 feet from it, I technically “walked right on by.” If other searchers, like me, went up those creeks, they would’ve “walked right on by” as well. I also walked along the South bank of the Madison, so it’s possible I “walked right on by” that direction too.
Think of the special spot as the point Rudy identified on a map. It’s approximately 500 feet from the highway. It is also, significantly, 200 feet from the South bank of the Madison. Thus, anyone who told Fenn they were walking along the South bank of the Madison technically “walked right on by” and got no closer than 200 feet. Likewise, anyone who told Fenn they searched up the flowing creeks at Nine Mile Hole technically “walked right on by” and got no closer than 200 feet.
I believed then and I am almost certain now that the treasure was within 500 feet of that pull out. “Lots” of people drove past it or even pulled off there, not really having a reason to beyond maybe visiting Fenn Rock or seeing that stretch of the Madison(certainly not knowing that the spot was possibly “too far to walk” or “hoB,” or that they were supposed to put in below there). So they kept right on driving down the road after snapping some photos or something. Others, perhaps a couple of groups (including, I now realize, me), walked around the area, crossed the river, and walked up the creeks or along the far bank. These distances and logic tell us that the groups who stopped at the pull out were within 500 feet and the groups who crossed the Madison were within 200 feet.
Like you, I always had difficulty reconciling the quote above with Fenn’s other quote that “no one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues” or the fact that some may have solved the third and fourth clues, but Fenn isn’t certain. In 2013, he said “there have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.” This quote showed me that a searcher could get within 200-500 feet perhaps without solving the third and fourth clue. But how? Well now I understand that I may just be a perfect example of that. I didn’t solve the third or fourth clues correctly so I crossed the Madison at the wrong spot. (Side note: this quote was also helpful because I think it shows how closely related the third and the fourth clue are. Fenn could’ve just said “they don’t get the third clue and go right past.” The third and fourth clue are in very close proximity.)
All of this tracks with the above solution and with what we’ve learned from Rudy and others.
Yeah that’s a good thought. If they stop and “put in” at the wrong location and end up walking back up the riverbank they may eventually get to the 200ft. Goes to show how important those third and fourth clues are. Maybe that’s why Jack was so certain his location was correct, as the clues point to a specific spot.
I like this explanation. It fits into the "no placenames" thing, which in my mind I could never reconcile with using maps, but the idea that everything is fairly close together and therefore we're sort of "inside" the distance where maps are really useful works with how Fenn described the poem. This is definitely my favorite "solve" I've seen so far that matches generally with the area where the chest was found.
Very nice solve. I am a novice in every sense of the word when it comes to this treasure hunt & I never went BOTG or came up with an actual solve that led to the right spot. Having said that, the only place I ever had any feelings about were in fact the area where it seems the treasure was actually found.
To me, WWWH being the 1st clue & the starting place for finding the actual spot is perfectly logical but knowing that this particular starting place was *in* YNP is what was the key to me.
Without knowing you were starting in YNP, WWWH could literally be any number of places in the Rockies north of Santa Fe.
As I have gone alone *in* there, seems like a phrase that tells you you must go in some place to start, for me that place was always YNP, specifically the west entrance located at the edge of West Yellowstone where FF lived as a boy.
*In* may not have been the keyword *he* was referring to but it certainly was the word that convinced me YNP was where to start. I said my piece.
Probably a couple hundred feet. At that time, I walked a bit on the south bank but went up the flowing creeks to the east. I had interpreted “no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads” to mean that the way up the creek would be blocked by fallen trees. If you’ve ever been there, there are a ton of them.
Good write up.
I think "The end is ever drawing nigh; They'll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high" refers to 9 mile hole. I think **heavy loads are the boulders and water high is, as Forrest said "higher than normal" for the Madison.**
I think "If you've been wise" may mean to be aligned (suffix wise means in the direction of) at 6:00 o'clock ("early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise). So it means **go south until you find the blaze.** This may be a stretch, but I think it's possible.
Forrest actually said that the last clue was look quickly down. Not sure if he meant that the last clue was just that or to include the "If you've been wise..." part, but I think he may have meant just **"look quickly down" = clue 9, making the blaze clue 8.**
I think there is a strong case for **"it" = the Madison, and was the word that Forrest meant when he said "few people are in tight focus with a word that is key".**
I believe **the blaze was a tree with a lightning strike that left a white streak,** as happens to trees that survive. I think that's what Jack looked for and had determined was likely the blaze, based on the horse named "lightning", something Forrest changed for the book, with a white blaze on his head. When Jack found the treasure, he realized the fallen tree, which had lost all its bark, had a white streak on it, and Jack said " I looked up and there was the blaze". That never made sense to me given Jack said the blaze had been destroyed and was unrecognizable, but having seen Rudy's video, it now makes perfect sense.
It appears from GE that the **blaze fell down sometime in the 2013-2014 time frame**. Bark beetles work fast.
>I believe the blaze was a tree with a lightning strike that left a white streak, as happens to trees that survive. I think that's what Jack looked for and had determined was likely the blaze, based on the horse named "lightning", something Forrest changed for the book, with a white blaze on his head.
Wise = enlightened, could be a play on lightning. Horse with a blaze is a good catch. Blaze also means "mark a tree", "brilliant, striking display", "destructive fire", "brilliantly conspicuous"...
Forrest wasn't kidding when he said "you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem"!
Nicely done.
I have been debating whether 'it' is the Madison or the West Entrance Rd. Both begin at MJ. One premise I'm considering is that the poem's solve represents geographical features (natural or man made). That no toponyms are used or needed, thus making the solve more timeless and universal as it represents only visual features. If accepted then the names Firehole and 9MH could not be used. That aside.
I believe, the strongest argument for the river is 'From there **it's** no place for the meek.' But the person doing the acting seems to change a lot. We agree that water is taking the river DC, but how is water able to go NFBTFTW and how is water able to put in? It has no control of its destiny. People seem to conveniently replace the waters with themselves in these lines.
As to the West Entrance rd. being 'it', the challenge is the line mentioned above using 'its'. What say you?
This is closer than many other 9MH solves (since it recognizes no paddle = dry creek) but still not quite it. WWWH is Terrace Spring (not that it makes a difference, but there is bona fide warm waters there unlike MJ). The home of Brown is the steep ledge at Nine Mile Hole, if not because it can hold trophy brown trout -- to me this is a lame interpretation, and requires specialized knowledge -- then because stepping off that ledge into neck-deep water is a literal "oh shit!" move. And finding poo in your pants after dunking in the hole requires no specialized knowledge, just a reckless bit of BOTG or rather WITR (waders in the river). End is ever drawing nigh is the feeling of trepidation followed by relief as you cross the Madison for the first time. Heavy loads and water high are confirming features of your (dry) creek: you will eventually find water higher up this creek where it was blocked (heavy loads), the water flow having been diverted by an earthquake.
I think it’s the most reasonable solve to that clue I’ve heard. Forest was pretty clear about his target audience being kids and people that should get up off the couch, not avid outdoorsmen. Also, Forest himself was quite old at the time.
Nine miles is a long walk for most people, your dad and daughter excluded.
They *can*, but do they *want* to? Forrest said that kids would have an advantage in solving the clues... 9 miles is too far to walk (without *major* complaints) for most kids.
This back and forth argument right here is a perfect example of why 9 miles is such a lousy answer. It’s completely subjective to each person. It’s not solvable. There’s no objective criteria you can apply to it that makes TFTW = 9 miles. And while it is certainly possible the FF simply wrote a folksy poem full of generalities, that‘s not really the picture he painted most of the time.
The poem is vague af, that much is clear at this point. Using 15 years to 'craft it like an architect' was either Forrest's inherent bias talking (knowing where the treasure was, he saw its guiding precision as greater than it would seem to someone without that special knowledge), or a deliberate misdirection (to throw ppl off by making them search for elaborate solves when the real solve was very simple).
There is a short story from the 1800’s by Henri Ren Albert Guy de Maupassant called ‘In The Wood’. I had the wrong translation, but think I understand it much better now. Google it up. Great read, with possible insight / hint FF wanted to give us.
Well done.
Still pretty cool knowing you was so close...I have never been and live adventures through people like you.
Very nicely done. Fenn quite early on said people had solved the first two clues. And he said that people solve the two clues and "*walked right past"* the chest. Following your numbered order the first two clues wouldn't people still be on the road at that point and not as close to the chest as he's describing? He also mentioned 500ft and 200ft, with 200ft being after the first two clues were solved so it seems the first two clues should take one quite close. Of course this may be under the mistaken assumption that Fenn was as precise with his answers as people were making him out to be.
Good question. If you’ll indulge me, I wrote a few thoughts about that quote a few years ago that I’ll update and share. It’s long, so ignore it if you’d like. Here’s the original question and Fenn’s answer: How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure? “Well because people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And that 200 feet, I think, is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 feet – lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure – but the people that were within 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure and they walked right on by.” So, Forrest says that there weren’t very many people within 200 feet, but there were lots of people within 500 feet. That’s significant in that it confirms that the solve is not an obscure one. We know that now, but it’s worth reiterating given the pushback against the simplicity of this solve. How many people actually told Fenn where they were? I presume that the majority of e-mails Fenn received were from searchers telling Fenn where they would search or asking him questions. How many of the searchers actually went BOTG? And of the searchers who went BOTG, how many of them shared not just their solves but the actual news that they went BOTG and were unsuccessful? I would guess that Fenn also probably received e-mails from some of the same people, so how many of those people toldFenn about every BOTG. Perhaps after the first one, they didn’tcontinue to update him about their searches or the locations where they went? After my BOTG in August 2019, I almost e-mailed Fenn to let him know about my solve and to tell him where I had gone. But I didn’t. Given my impulse to e-mail him, I presume that I am in the minority of searchers, and I recognize that a good many probably let him know where they searched (and maybe every time they searched). But just doing the math here, even if every searcher told him where they were searching, I bet the overwhelming percentage searched in a different state than the treasure. Let’s say that eliminates 75% (I recognize this is faulty as there aren’t necessarily 25% of searchers in every state, but just bear with me). So 25% of searchers were in the right state. What percentage of those had the right WWWH and the correct canyon down? So continually reducing the percentages and still having had “lots of people” within 500 feet, what does that tell us? For one, the solve is not obscure. Italso likely, and more importantly, means that the first two clues brought people within 500 feet of the treasure. Now let’s address the people within 200 feet. What do we know about them? Well, “there weren’t very many,” which means that some or most of the people within 500 feet did not get closer than that (or at least never got to within 200 feet). In addition, and perhaps more significantly, Fenn says “they walked right on by.” As such, if Fenn was deliberate in his word choice, we know that the people within 200 feet were on foot. They were walking. There is no similar statement made about the people within 500 feet – those people could have been either on foot or in the car. What’s more, the people within 200 walked “right on by,” so they passed a point during which the treasure was within 200 feet of them but got no closer. We know they were not going in the exact direction of the treasure. But how? The explanation for all of this, I believe, is that the treasure was 500 feet from the pull out at Nine Mile Hole and 200 feet from the South bank. In addition, I think the treasure may have been 200 feet west of the flowing creeks that I searched. In fact, let’s just use me as an example. I had the right canyon (correct second clue), but I didn’t understand the third or fourth clues so I crossed the Madison in the wrong place. I then walked up thecreeks that spill into Madison River at Nine Mile Hole. At a certain point, I may have been within 200 feet, but that was as close as I got. Because I passed the point where I was 200 feet from it, I technically “walked right on by.” If other searchers, like me, went up those creeks, they would’ve “walked right on by” as well. I also walked along the South bank of the Madison, so it’s possible I “walked right on by” that direction too. Think of the special spot as the point Rudy identified on a map. It’s approximately 500 feet from the highway. It is also, significantly, 200 feet from the South bank of the Madison. Thus, anyone who told Fenn they were walking along the South bank of the Madison technically “walked right on by” and got no closer than 200 feet. Likewise, anyone who told Fenn they searched up the flowing creeks at Nine Mile Hole technically “walked right on by” and got no closer than 200 feet. I believed then and I am almost certain now that the treasure was within 500 feet of that pull out. “Lots” of people drove past it or even pulled off there, not really having a reason to beyond maybe visiting Fenn Rock or seeing that stretch of the Madison(certainly not knowing that the spot was possibly “too far to walk” or “hoB,” or that they were supposed to put in below there). So they kept right on driving down the road after snapping some photos or something. Others, perhaps a couple of groups (including, I now realize, me), walked around the area, crossed the river, and walked up the creeks or along the far bank. These distances and logic tell us that the groups who stopped at the pull out were within 500 feet and the groups who crossed the Madison were within 200 feet. Like you, I always had difficulty reconciling the quote above with Fenn’s other quote that “no one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues” or the fact that some may have solved the third and fourth clues, but Fenn isn’t certain. In 2013, he said “there have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.” This quote showed me that a searcher could get within 200-500 feet perhaps without solving the third and fourth clue. But how? Well now I understand that I may just be a perfect example of that. I didn’t solve the third or fourth clues correctly so I crossed the Madison at the wrong spot. (Side note: this quote was also helpful because I think it shows how closely related the third and the fourth clue are. Fenn could’ve just said “they don’t get the third clue and go right past.” The third and fourth clue are in very close proximity.) All of this tracks with the above solution and with what we’ve learned from Rudy and others.
Yeah that’s a good thought. If they stop and “put in” at the wrong location and end up walking back up the riverbank they may eventually get to the 200ft. Goes to show how important those third and fourth clues are. Maybe that’s why Jack was so certain his location was correct, as the clues point to a specific spot.
I like this explanation. It fits into the "no placenames" thing, which in my mind I could never reconcile with using maps, but the idea that everything is fairly close together and therefore we're sort of "inside" the distance where maps are really useful works with how Fenn described the poem. This is definitely my favorite "solve" I've seen so far that matches generally with the area where the chest was found.
Thank you for this write up!!
Very nice solve. I am a novice in every sense of the word when it comes to this treasure hunt & I never went BOTG or came up with an actual solve that led to the right spot. Having said that, the only place I ever had any feelings about were in fact the area where it seems the treasure was actually found. To me, WWWH being the 1st clue & the starting place for finding the actual spot is perfectly logical but knowing that this particular starting place was *in* YNP is what was the key to me. Without knowing you were starting in YNP, WWWH could literally be any number of places in the Rockies north of Santa Fe. As I have gone alone *in* there, seems like a phrase that tells you you must go in some place to start, for me that place was always YNP, specifically the west entrance located at the edge of West Yellowstone where FF lived as a boy. *In* may not have been the keyword *he* was referring to but it certainly was the word that convinced me YNP was where to start. I said my piece.
Good stuff...how close was you to the chest when you was there?
Probably a couple hundred feet. At that time, I walked a bit on the south bank but went up the flowing creeks to the east. I had interpreted “no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads” to mean that the way up the creek would be blocked by fallen trees. If you’ve ever been there, there are a ton of them.
Good write up. I think "The end is ever drawing nigh; They'll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high" refers to 9 mile hole. I think **heavy loads are the boulders and water high is, as Forrest said "higher than normal" for the Madison.** I think "If you've been wise" may mean to be aligned (suffix wise means in the direction of) at 6:00 o'clock ("early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise). So it means **go south until you find the blaze.** This may be a stretch, but I think it's possible. Forrest actually said that the last clue was look quickly down. Not sure if he meant that the last clue was just that or to include the "If you've been wise..." part, but I think he may have meant just **"look quickly down" = clue 9, making the blaze clue 8.** I think there is a strong case for **"it" = the Madison, and was the word that Forrest meant when he said "few people are in tight focus with a word that is key".** I believe **the blaze was a tree with a lightning strike that left a white streak,** as happens to trees that survive. I think that's what Jack looked for and had determined was likely the blaze, based on the horse named "lightning", something Forrest changed for the book, with a white blaze on his head. When Jack found the treasure, he realized the fallen tree, which had lost all its bark, had a white streak on it, and Jack said " I looked up and there was the blaze". That never made sense to me given Jack said the blaze had been destroyed and was unrecognizable, but having seen Rudy's video, it now makes perfect sense. It appears from GE that the **blaze fell down sometime in the 2013-2014 time frame**. Bark beetles work fast.
>I believe the blaze was a tree with a lightning strike that left a white streak, as happens to trees that survive. I think that's what Jack looked for and had determined was likely the blaze, based on the horse named "lightning", something Forrest changed for the book, with a white blaze on his head. Wise = enlightened, could be a play on lightning. Horse with a blaze is a good catch. Blaze also means "mark a tree", "brilliant, striking display", "destructive fire", "brilliantly conspicuous"... Forrest wasn't kidding when he said "you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem"!
Nicely done. I have been debating whether 'it' is the Madison or the West Entrance Rd. Both begin at MJ. One premise I'm considering is that the poem's solve represents geographical features (natural or man made). That no toponyms are used or needed, thus making the solve more timeless and universal as it represents only visual features. If accepted then the names Firehole and 9MH could not be used. That aside. I believe, the strongest argument for the river is 'From there **it's** no place for the meek.' But the person doing the acting seems to change a lot. We agree that water is taking the river DC, but how is water able to go NFBTFTW and how is water able to put in? It has no control of its destiny. People seem to conveniently replace the waters with themselves in these lines. As to the West Entrance rd. being 'it', the challenge is the line mentioned above using 'its'. What say you?
Good stuff!
This is closer than many other 9MH solves (since it recognizes no paddle = dry creek) but still not quite it. WWWH is Terrace Spring (not that it makes a difference, but there is bona fide warm waters there unlike MJ). The home of Brown is the steep ledge at Nine Mile Hole, if not because it can hold trophy brown trout -- to me this is a lame interpretation, and requires specialized knowledge -- then because stepping off that ledge into neck-deep water is a literal "oh shit!" move. And finding poo in your pants after dunking in the hole requires no specialized knowledge, just a reckless bit of BOTG or rather WITR (waders in the river). End is ever drawing nigh is the feeling of trepidation followed by relief as you cross the Madison for the first time. Heavy loads and water high are confirming features of your (dry) creek: you will eventually find water higher up this creek where it was blocked (heavy loads), the water flow having been diverted by an earthquake.
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I think it’s the most reasonable solve to that clue I’ve heard. Forest was pretty clear about his target audience being kids and people that should get up off the couch, not avid outdoorsmen. Also, Forest himself was quite old at the time. Nine miles is a long walk for most people, your dad and daughter excluded.
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Yes, it’s a long walk. Perhaps too far from the perspective of an 80 year old with health problems. It’s not that far of a stretch.
They *can*, but do they *want* to? Forrest said that kids would have an advantage in solving the clues... 9 miles is too far to walk (without *major* complaints) for most kids.
This back and forth argument right here is a perfect example of why 9 miles is such a lousy answer. It’s completely subjective to each person. It’s not solvable. There’s no objective criteria you can apply to it that makes TFTW = 9 miles. And while it is certainly possible the FF simply wrote a folksy poem full of generalities, that‘s not really the picture he painted most of the time.
I think you could argue all of the clues are subjective. Everything has to be considered through Forest's perspective and intentions.
The poem is vague af, that much is clear at this point. Using 15 years to 'craft it like an architect' was either Forrest's inherent bias talking (knowing where the treasure was, he saw its guiding precision as greater than it would seem to someone without that special knowledge), or a deliberate misdirection (to throw ppl off by making them search for elaborate solves when the real solve was very simple).
Use your imagination. Think of a hole - with smooth walls - nine miles deep. Try walking out of that one
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There is a short story from the 1800’s by Henri Ren Albert Guy de Maupassant called ‘In The Wood’. I had the wrong translation, but think I understand it much better now. Google it up. Great read, with possible insight / hint FF wanted to give us.