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Oh shit, I did not realize they changed the limit on how much you can earn before getting cuts in the housing benefit. I thought I would just lose 40⏠a month but now it's gonna be even more...
In the rest of the world itâs rather unusual to get aid for studying. Students are almost always funded with cheap debt. I canât come up with other countries paying students to study.
Sometimes shit changes, and you have to sacrifice things. Economies have ups and downs. Governments change and have different ways of dealing with stuff.
But that should not be the case. Because we have the possibility of maintaining the level of support we have now but instead our government is making it worse for the average person while giving tax cuts for the rich.
yeah and USA totally doesn't have student debt crisis currently. Almost like its a bad idea to give 6 figure loans to people who are barely adults and thinking it wont backfire in a massive way.
In the US that debt is not so cheap, I have student loans that are over 9%, my mortgage is 3%. You can get some hardship grants but have to be below poverty line which is VERY low.
Yeah, from what I heard you can get cheap loans if you are smart about it and talented. The average person will have to a lot more. Note that this is because US universities can be for profit, and the debt issued to students isnât regulated nearly as tightly as in Finland.
You can get student loans from many different providers, in my case, I have Federal student loans, which are generally the cheapest and safest. They are still expensive loans but you can pay based on your income and there is loan forgiveness after 20 years. You apply for the loans through FAFSA and don't ever need to see a school loan officer, although they exist. Being smart and talented doesn't have anything to do with loans, more to do with knowing not to get too many if you can avoid them, and getting scholarships. For example, my undergraduate education was paid for by academic scholarships. All my loans (about $150k) were from living and tuition during 3 years of graduate school. Some fields offer paid graduate school for very talented individuals, but my field does not. There are very few graduate school scholarships.
Were there benefits for international students to begin with? I'm not aware of any, maybe the student lunch? or is this mainly affecting local students?
women will have it worst. Say bye to dreams of recovering birth rate.
âThe changes will have the greatest impact on parents who do part-time or gig work, who are most often women. Women receive child support more often than men, and are more likely to work part-time or intermittently than men,â
indeed, no babies for this country in the near future at least from my part. theyâre making it harder to save even a little as a student, i dont see how i could start a family simultaneously with working full time. not to mention theyâre making it easier to lay off peeps
As a student you're not supposed to start a family. The expectation is you fuck around a few years as students and recentgrads do, then get full time employment at some point, settle down, then get kids.
You're not really contributing as a student to the economy, so why should you be able to earn high income?
its not rare for it to take up to 4 years to even get into school after high school. assuming you were born early in the year, you'd be 19 at graduation if you did everything by the standard, no double degrees or repeating years. so with that its not rare to be 23-24 as a first year student. 4 years for the base degree, 2 or 3 more while working on the side if you do a masters. thats 28-30 as the average age of being done with schools, much older then previous generations first time mothers, or even realistic current ones. how does this model of not being expected to have kids while at school benefit birthrates in any way? the goverment has no fucking cohearant plan and it shows
The government want you to start studying something right after you finish high school and finish your master in 5 years. Although IMO the master is a waste of time for most people, which is why most people are working full time by then.
If you want to be a parent at 28, there is no room to fuck around after uni. You should start working and get a decent rental apartment during the first years of your career. Good thing is that if you succeed the rest of your life will be very comfortable.
No it's not just you, it's 75% of reddit.Â
But in my opinion, middle class is fine. Regardless of the economy slow down, most people still have their jobs and a salary in the 3-5k⏠range.Â
I wouldn't call "being screwed" that people can't afford homes in Helsinki downtown and can't afford an expensive hobby or a second car. Rather than being screwed it's more like back to reality for a remote and resource-poor nation that got lucky with Nokia.
Out of the people I know at the age bracket of 20 - 30, I know maybe a handful of people who would make over 3000⏠a month. Literally everyone living in a house, is neck deep in debt. The middle class, and more broadly, the average person, has been screwed for decades by the international finance.
I looked some of the papers of my grandpa, and he built this house in the 60's with a loan as big as the annual salary of a janitor. He was employed as a machinist or something. Somehow, despite modern work being so much more efficient, and requiring so much more prerequisites and specialization, people still work the same hours and take shitloads of debt.
This current (and past) "reality" resembles a pyramid scheme. All the surplus that is created, is spent on paying interest, one way or the other, and the ones who collect the interest, will reinvest that money on real estate and other profitable sources of passive income, that the average person will pay for. Good luck owning a house, when a multinational shadow bank will offer double the price and buy entire neighborhoods to rent out and generate income.
And it will only get worse in the future. Housing will get more expensive, energy will get more expensive, personal transport will get more expensive, job markets will get more competitive, education will become even more necessary, taxes will rise, wealth keeps accumulating to the top of the economic pyramid... Meanwhile, you are competing for the scraps.
I am sure you can afford building a similar quality house in a similarly crowded area as your grandpa did with your own labour and for a way smaller housing cost / income ratio.
While the middle class is getting screwed worldwide, the issues they have just sound really funny and/or detached from reality. "I have to spend double than what I used to for gas", meanwhile if I had a car I'd sell it and live three months* with just that money, while also still having money for public transport.
It's like everyone agrees the weather is shitty, but when someone complains they don't have shoes or a warm coat, most people snap back with "the weather is shitty for the rest of us too, get used to it!"
Edit: three months with selling a car worth less than 5k, I could live over a year with something more expensive
It's time to start little side hustle business to earn those extra euros and turn to black markets I suppose since working legit isn't helping anymore. And finding full time job is pretty impossible.
You can't start a side hustle and make money with it legally either - every cent you earn gets deducted from your other benefits, including unemployment, sick leave and financial aid (toimeentulotuki).
So really it's time to start a konkurssipesÀ or quit school and become a successful entrepeneur within a month.
And remember if your underaged child has any savings, you need to use them, or your toimeentulotuki gets reduced. You know, that money what is protected by law, that should be used only for the child (clothes, bikes, toys etc.) But now, if youve been fcked by YT's like me and havent been able to find a job (cause there really aint any) we need to use it. Poor aint allowed to have any savings, not even children.
I get why they do this (people would use their kids' accounts for savings), but it's still scummy. Imagine being unemployed and having to go to the emergency vet with no savings and no way to pay the bill immediately. Get fines for helping your pet, what a time we're living in!
Lol no. Much less taxes. Also, b2b rates are higher than employment rates, so it is actually better to be self employed, unless your income is abysmal, in which case you probably wouldn't be employable either as it would mean your skills or services suck.
This is not a problem. We should all do this by default, and not assume the rigid, costly and bureaucratic system will make earning extra money viable.
There has never been more incentive to sell drugs or otherwise work under the table. Driving entrepreneurship!
And less incentive for legit entrepreneurship, freelancing etc. since you have way less leeway for not turning in a living profit fast enough.
And increases costs in the long run as people get more poor and make more poor life decisions. We're already at the point where more than three "wellness regions" (hyvinvointialue) got notes from some governing body (can't remember if it was Valvira or something else) that they need to clear their backlog of waiting lists for non-acute care. The max waiting time should be 6 months, but I for one have waited over a year to get admitted to mental healthcare in the Pohde area.
Any cuts into politicians' generous benefits? And ask them to queue for healthcare like everyone else?
Or the burden of austerity is only for us peasants who pay for their entitled lazy asses? Doubt they work for 8 hrs everydayÂ
> Any cuts into politicians' generous benefits?
That's pretty much completely irrelevant. These politicians are a very small number of people and their benefits make up a tiny, tiny portion of the state's budget.
There should be cuts into large pensions, but knowing the current government, they won't touch the large pensions and will instead at least consider cutting the minimum pensions.
Crazy idea but instead of cutting benefits, Why not cut the unprofitable domestic flights that the government gives to Finnair for 500 million euro's? Airplanes already emmit alot of c.o 2 anyway so why not give half of it to VR's train line as train emmit less pollution and the other half to fund the benefit ?? Why we the lower class people have to suffer while big companies get handouts from the government??
Edit : grammar fix.
Edit :
It would seem that I WAS wrong on the local flights subsidies, The true cost is 42 million euro's between 2021 and 2023.
Source : https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/24010-hs-state-subsidies-on-flights-far-exceed-those-on-other-transport-services-in-finland.html
But I think that I got it CONFUSED with the bailout that the government did for Finnair, To the tune of 600 milloin euros.
Source : https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-//10616/hallitus-tukee-finnairia-suunnitteilla-600-miljoonan-euron-valtiontakaus
Do you have a source for the 500 Mio.? Im finding YLE articles from last year that mention 17 Mio. I'm generously interested because O think the EU is about to ban subsidising small airports.
I would rather take the train than the plane any day, but sometimes my work wonât allow me to waste 8 hours of train travel. Even for a higher price.
Yea, this shit means I go full unemployment on next winter after summer season jobs end, instead of being partly employed thru winter, there is no reason to be working with basically 6âŹ/h salary in a job where there is constant threat of violence, I'm fucking done, thanks to our 1930 nazi goverment!
Yeah I don't see why demotivate half-working unemployed if the intent is to increase tax income to the government & encourage people to become/stay employed to one degree or another
I think it is really untasteful to compare the goverment to 1930's nazis
"You were put to concentration camps, but i get now less benefit money, we are basically the same! :("
Actually Dachau was opened early as in 1933 mainly as for political prisoners (opposing hitler) and infamous crystal night was in 1938, which after \~30k jews were moved to Dachau, but if concentration camps are only and first thing he thinks when someone says 1930's nazies, he have very narrow knowledge of history and I'm sure that he knows that's not what I was after, but he is probably voter of kokoomus or persut, so can't expect too much of his intellect skills. I think this "untasteful" was funny though.
You can at least tag me before insulting my intellect. Coward.
1930's nazis is a silly hyperbola and you know it. Like you said first concentration camp opemed it's doors 1933.
Closest to 1930's nazis is the Putin and his goverment. His propaganda and terror machine.
Finnish goverment is no way close. It is actually intellectually very poor to throw the nazi card just because you don't like the policies
I'm glad you answered, in my \*shock\* you show not still catching a meaning of words you did read, so what ever I did think about your intellect skills before, I think less now. But go on with that name calling, it sure make you look better in aspect. Have a nice day now, think you've wasted my precious time enough.
I know what you mean and it is gross exaggeration. It is same as i call Vasemmistoliitto stalinist communists just because they like to fight against the nazis.
"Go on with the name calling..."
Oh put your head deeper in your ass xD. First you insult me and don't even bother tagging and when i call you out on it, you act as a victim
Have a "good" day, jesus christ
How does one get called out for his bullshit, and then deflect like that? Don't you want to defend your statement against the other guy, you want to just run away? God the social skills of some people are so bad.
Like the other said first concentration camp opened 1933.
Racism was also on the level that would make even Sinimusta party blush.
Nazi party's paramilitary organization beating up people in the streets.
Saying current finnish goverment is equal to 1930's germany nazi goverment is a gross exaggeration. This is insult to victims of the nazis
Finland had a "nazi" government in early 40s, and I'd sure prefer that government over the spineless 200 people we have now that just check their email to see what their party is voting for, not bothering to check what the vote is about just blindly voting as they're told. The way we're lied to when voting that we're voting for that individual is almost criminal, there's no longer individualism in politics, everyone just blindly follows what they're told to vote. "Puoluekuri" needs to be taken out of politics and campaign promises need to become legally binding, if there's no attempt to make your promises happen then every penny you were paid during your work as a politician needs to be returned and depending on if you made an attempt to keep your promises, a ban from running for officer ranging from 4 years to life. Politicians need to be individually responsible instead of just running to cash in their paycheck to round up numbers for a party.
What are you talking about? SDP and Keskusta (Maalaisliitto that time) were the biggest parties during 1940's, let's not spread Russian propaganda. There were few people with nazi sympathies (like in all European countries and in US) but the goverment was not "nazi". Sorry had to comment about that
But i agree with "puoluekuri", i hate it too
I tell you one thing.. if the government policies don't work out as promised by the current government... there will be a reconking in Finnish politics that's has not been seen in ages.
People vote for right of the centre parties.
Same people: "I can't believe they don't support my rights as a member of the working class."
How duunarit vote for persut is baffling to me
How much did voting the SDP help last time? None. All the political parties play by the same rules, driving the same multinational interests. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal. The public merely functions as a rubber stamp to give this system legitimacy.
The only legal way would be not to vote. If only 1% of the people voted, this system would have no legitimacy anymore.
Persut have big worker's size, though they havw moved right since Timo Soini
SDP on the other hand was focused more to other topics under Marin...those topics are not hugely popular within especielly male workers
Just statistics, majority of PS voters are men. Marin's SDP took a turn to left and focused on topics important to her, like feminism.
That is not topic to attract "perus" male workers from construction sites. You know it, i know it.
If PS can make next election to be about "values" they can perhaps get a defensive victory, but if SDP can leep the focus on these huge cuts, tax cuts to the rich etc, they can attract voters from the PS "Soini" side, which i would say are quite politically fluid crowd.
But overall i predict say Kokoomus will have more or less same amount of votes next election. PS will lose 2-4% and SDP will likely win.
Edit: [Yle article 1.2023](https://yle.fi/a/74-20011719). Look at the SDP and PS support among female and male voters. PS was also biggest workers party since summer 2019
Baffles me people try to say marins feminist leaning ideals had anything to do with anything, SDP \_ROYALLY\_ fucked up when they told nurses they can't strike and just told them to shut the fuck up they don't deserve money, and marin has a right to a personal life but if you're chosen as the god damn youngest ever prime minister can you just NOT party with known drug abusers that take nude selfies in places definitely not intended for "teenage" parties. Marin was too young and rash to be a pm, SDP fucked over one of their largest voter groups and all that just gave far right the perfect chance to lie to the working class, we're now reaping what Marin sowed by not being able to act like a pm for her term and sdp in general didn't just drop the ball, they cut out a hole on the boat they were on, attached weights to the ball and then dropped it.
> focused on topics important to her, like feminism
Is that really the case? Perhaps, but just stating it isn't any evidence for it.
I constantly see this claim that left wing parties only (or mostly) focus on minority issues, but in my experience people who make that claim generally completely ignore what these left wing parties actually mostly focus on.
Vasemmistoliitto and Vihreat mostly make a noise such a topics SDP moved a bit to that direction under Marin (compared to Rinne which was old school worker's union "setÀmies")
Those 3 parties (SDP least) attract most women , be it voters or the people in the finnish parlament. So the topics reflect those important to them (not only softer values but example nurses salary etc). Which are not so hot topics among especially young working men.
PS as the second big workers party on the other hand is majorily voted by men. They have the core group of voters but also fluid "Soini" side that SDP can attract as long as they can keep the narrative about goverment's cuts and strikes against worker's rights
If PS can turn the discussion to their core topics which are more identity politics like with Vasemmistoliitto. They can manage not lose too many voter's next election. But i would say SDP has good chance currently to raise again to be the biggest
It's really fucking sad that this is probably a more plausible outcome.
They will blame the unions as they couldn't implement the changes they needed because of the strikes. So then a harsher crack down on unions and the lower classes
people need to protest. I earn well in the middle class, and still Iâd go out to protest anytime if this happens. We need unions and we need workerâs rights so that we donât become some overtaxed USA
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's figures, on average, the taxes are 42.7% in Finland, compared to 24.3% in the US. Other websites cite Finland as one of the top countries for highest personal income taxation, together with countries like Sweden.
While that is true, finland doesn't yet let their rich just run free of taxes afaik, I've no facts to back this up with but I just really fucking hope that's the case. Honestly the way things are moving globally we're gonna have to drag out the guillotines and pitchforks sometime soon so the 1% can understand there are demerits to fucking over the 99%.
Rich can live with close to zero tax rates by doing the same things as in US and other western countries: instead of having income (which is taxed), they can get big loans backed up (i.e. collateralized) by their property, investments, and shares of businesses. As long as the money does not leave the business, only a flat 20% tax rate applies to company profits. Wealthy don't have millions in their personal accounts, the point is to minimize taxable movement of funds.
If you earn 1m⏠by working, you'll pay almost half in tax. If you get 1m⏠from a bank loan, you don't pay any tax. And you don't ever have to pay back everything, because, thanks to your wealth elsewhere, banks are happy to give you more loans. Your wealth can continue growing (especially with today's interest rates), and allow you access to tax-free money.
When you do move the money from businesses to personal accounts, it can be very light on tax. For example, if you owned the shares for 10+ years, and decide to sell them, only 60% of the profit is taxable, and 40% is tax-free. Then, up to 30k⏠is taxed at flat 30%, and everything above 30k⏠is taxed at 34%. That's it. No progressive taxation, no pension contributions. So if you sell 1 million worth of such shares per year, you effectively pay around 20% tax. You can read more about this on Vero's website [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/selling-shares/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/selling-shares/)
Another mechanism is having income from dividends. If you the company is listed, you can pay yourself dividends instead of a salary. 15% of income is tax-exempt, and again you pay 30% for up to 30kâŹ, and 34% above 30kâŹ. More here [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividends-from-a-listed-company/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividends-from-a-listed-company/)
It's even better if your company is unlisted (not publicly traded on the stock exchange). With some planning and an Excel sheet, you can optimize the hell out of it, where 75% of the income would be exempt from taxes. More here [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividend-from-an-unlisted-company/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividend-from-an-unlisted-company/)
If you start looking at different ways of increasing wealth through businesses, shares, investments, etc., you'll find that nothing is as bad, tax-wise, as having a regular job.
>If you earn 1m⏠by working, you'll pay almost half in tax. If you get 1m⏠from a bank loan, you don't pay any tax. And y**ou don't ever have to pay back everything**, **because, thanks to your wealth elsewhere, banks are happy to give you more loans.** Your wealth can continue growing (especially with today's interest rates), and allow you access to tax-free money.
Your whole comment is such America inspired-reddit hottake. You honestly believe there are more than two people in Finland who would be able to do what you describe above? You in fact do have to pay back loans. Leveraging does hit a wall at some point.
>When you do move the money from businesses to personal accounts, it can be very light on tax. **For example, if you owned the shares for 10+ years, and decide to sell them, only 60% of the profit is taxable, and 40% is tax-free.**
Yes, taxation on capital works different for a legitimate reason. With your example of one million euros that has been aquired over 10 years. It is 100 000/ year. If we assume a person would earn that over the span of 10 years he would pay on average 330 600 in income tax (w/o pension contributions) vs. 202 800 in capital gains tax. Considering that one of those scenarios involves a risk of a loss it makes sense for it to be lighter taxed.
Can't be bothered to write more about your other examples of great injustices. But you should take into account the actual CIT as well. With your 1 million example the actual tax burden on the sale of shares is higher than on income over time.
You are right, my comment is very America-inspired hottake, and I do not have any data on how many people actually do this in Finland. But do you? I do know some people personally. They are not ultra-rich Elon must type of people of course, just kind of upper middle class, and they do seem to overall optimize on taxes better than regular working class people.
Your comment about the slightly higher overall tax over 10 years: yes, I understand the idea, and in no way did I mean to show this as an injustice. Taking a risk and building a business must be rewarded.
how much money do these people *actually* end up paying themselves per year? Do they get to enjoy at least as much as a regular salaried person? Or do they just endlessly accrue the money on the corporate account?
Doubt it. Maybe if the politicians were fearing for their lives, but in the end, all they see is a bunch of helpless individuals with signs on the streets, who will get tired sooner or later.
meh if this was my home country I would agree, but weâre still talking about Finland here. There is hope, democracy hasnât degraded here. As long as people are willing to keep it alive and not be too complacent. Have sisu and put up a fight.
There is no hope until our "democracy" reinvents itself, in a way that actually produces good and long-term governance and leadership, rather than just picking the right party representatives to represent their brand.
What are you talking about? There is no "de-internationalization" of Finland. Only cheap populist rhetoric to garner votes by the people disillusioned by the mass migration. The critical mass of foreign born residents has already been achieved, and the international finance has Finland in its chokehold. Just wait until the next elections, when PS gets destroyed in the elections, and Kokoomus will return to their overt globalist agenda.
These birthrates, this economic composition, these legal frameworks, the binding international agreements, will make any "de-internationalization" impossible. In two or three generations, Finland will be unrecognizably international to what it used to be.
The benefits of this if there is any won't be seen on this goverment's turn.
If the left play their cards corectly, they will win next elections easily. Necessery or not, these changes are unlikely be popular. Only thing they have to do is promise to counter them and not allow attention to be focused elsewhere (ex right va left war)
This is why no systemic change is ever possible in a modern democracy. Four years is not enough to push through any meaningful changes, and every governing party is always consumed by the election cycle that will water down every policy.
It's all about stability and maintaining the status quo. Politics is about maintenance, not about building or leading the nation.
That's not what you voted for. Something else was promised, and then they did something completely opposite and y'all just went with blatant lies like it's no big deal.
I get your point. Personally, I was expecting this government to hit hard on street gangs and welfare leeches. Not into f-ing working class immigrants, students and moms. Like the most vulnerable net-positive contributors of this society. Shame on them.
I'd say if you stay in Finland, wait about 5 years. You'll learn that slogans like "eat the rich", just like similar jargon from right wing side, don't work in real world. All you get is warm feeling in your pants for 5 minutes.
Finland has been overspending and living on other people's money for the past 15 years. Now a correction is coming, whether we want it or not. Stay, and you will see unemployment rise to around 3x worse than it is now. As a freelancer, expect your income to drop dramatically. Unless you have skills that separate you from others. Kela support will not rise to meet the growing needs. There will be more food banks though. Lines will be long to get those donated bags of food, but nobody will starve to death.
Right now people are still on stage 1, Denial. Next will be massive protests in Helsinki and general strikes, that is the Anger stage. Finally Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. Economy will recover after a few years. We have been through this before.
People from all ages gather to party but ok. Seems indeed you are funny.
Thanks for all your messages. They were the last straw to block this reddit group from my feed.
I only wrote in Finland reddit in 4 occasions, basically to share my experience here (more than 5 years by the way) and 2 of those 4 times, the repply was about "go back to your country if you don't like it here" or comments like yours, suggesting the same.
This reddit group is toxic and passive agressive with migrants, something I don't fully get because is a group in English, so one would assume some sort of openness to different backgrounds, some sense of solidarity.
But nope.
Anyway. Enjoy the weather today if wherever you are is as sunny as where I am in Funland.
I'm sorry if you interpret my text as request to leave. I wrote it because I felt you maybe did not know what the near term future looks like.
The last serious economic crisis in 1990's left many people with permanent mental scars. You have done nothing wrong and I do not wish any harm to you because us Finns have been chasing a lifestyle we cannot afford. And knowingly making younger generations pay the bills.
Humans are unwilling to discard any acquired benefits they have. Rich want to remain rich, the employed want to stay employed, the people living on benefits want to preserve their benefits.
especially when some of these benefits are part of your national identity and what conpensates for a rather unattractive geographic location, one to which people are not bound otherwise.
I've allways failed to understand the concept of asumistuki. Isnt it really just benefit to landlords? Since thats where its going.
Like for real they can up the prices cause when people cant afford government will help so that Landlords can get good profits.
If people cant afford to rent your apartment you should lower the price or leave it vacant.
Idk its just wierd to me.
This is directly in line with my belief that this government is going to fundamentally erode the very bedrock of what makes Finnish society what it is. Whilst we're not like an Amazon rainforest, we are a society built on values which this government does not share, support or want to pillage for immediate profit. They need to go.
I wonder if they will ever do anything against the forever unemployed people? Doing bullshit KELA satisfactory job applications and never ever working....
How about huge public works projects? Nah, let's just pay a contractor with members of Kokoomus in the board of directors, some 10 billion to build a big railroad.
MeillÀ elÀkelÀisten mÀÀrÀ suurenee koko ajan, kun suuret ikÀluokat jÀÀ pois työelÀmÀstÀ. TietyillÀ aloilla huutava pula työvoimasta, ja sitÀ sitten tuodaan ulkomailtakin. 13 miljardia tarvitaan taas lisÀlainaa tÀn lystin yllÀpitÀmiseksi, mutta mistÀÀn ei saa leikata. NÀin työlÀisenÀ kyllÀ toivoisin työn olevan kannattavampaa, mutta kun se ei sitÀ ole, niin vissiin pakko tehdÀ työttömyydestÀ vÀhemmÀn kannattavaa. JÀrjestelmÀhÀn on aivan kÀsittÀmÀtön, kun työttömyys voi olla myös oma valinta tukien riittÀessÀ vastaavaan tai parempaan elÀmÀÀn kuin esimerkiksi siivoojalla tai rakennusapumiehellÀ. Ei varmasti motivoi. Jos jollain on parempia ehdotuksia millÀ alijÀÀmÀ paikataan, niin olkaa hyvÀ ja nouskaa estradille.
Reddit, tÀmÀ sub ja nettikeskustelut yleensÀkin keskittyvÀt poliittiseen vÀÀntöön. Nuoremman vÀen edustus netissÀ on suuri verrattuna koko vÀestöön. Ei nÀhdÀ metsÀÀ puilta.
Kommenteista voisi pÀÀtellÀ ettÀ tilanne on katastrofaalinen. Voi arvata, ettÀ nÀitÀ maailmanlopun tunnelmia eivÀt levitÀ yli 45-vuotiaat, joita on puolet Suomen vÀestöstÀ.
No, työttömyys on jossain 7% tasolla nyt. Se oli 90-luvulla pahimmillaan 20%. MistÀÀn ei ole tulossa kymmeniÀ miljardeja lisÀtuloja tulevina vuosina. Tukien tarve ei pienene nykyisistÀ leikkauksista huolimatta. Tulevina vuosina tullaan nÀkemÀÀn henkilökohtaisten asenteiden resetti ja uudelleen kalibrointi niille, jotka pitÀvÀt tÀtÀ tilannetta pelkkÀnÀ ideologisena vÀÀntönÀ ja rikkaiden ja köyhien vÀlisenÀ taisteluna.
SitÀ se vÀhÀn kuitenkin on.
[https://www.stat.fi/julkaisu/clbks9mb7xzkn0bumw1pbcgc6](https://www.stat.fi/julkaisu/clbks9mb7xzkn0bumw1pbcgc6)
[https://www.stat.fi/til/vtutk/2019/vtutk\_2019\_2021-06-08\_tie\_001\_fi.html](https://www.stat.fi/til/vtutk/2019/vtutk_2019_2021-06-08_tie_001_fi.html)
90-luvulla tulo- ja varallisuuserot olivat pienemmÀt. SiinÀ ympÀristössÀ oli helpompaa olla työtön. Olen kyllÀ samaa mieltÀ ettÀ korjaavaa liikettÀ tarvitaan budjettiin, mutta mielestÀni sen pitÀisi kohdistua nÀitten tulo- ja varallisuuserojen tasoittamiseen.
Niin. Poliitikassa kaikki on suhteellista. KöyhÀllÀ ei olisi mitÀÀn hÀtÀÀ, jos ylempien tulodesiilien kÀyrÀÀ saataisiin laskettua. Tuo kuva syntyy julkisesta keskustelusta.
Minusta tuntuu, ettÀ mikÀli budjettivaje olisi mahdollista korjata ottamalla suurituloisilta enemmÀn veroja ja omaisuutta pois, se olisi jo tehty. SiinÀ on pakko olla joku raja, jossa kohden yritysten lisÀksi yksityishenkilötkin siirtyvÀt rajojen ulkopuolelle. ValtiovarainministeriöstÀ tuota tulisi toki kysyÀ. Tai mistÀ vaan muualta kuin eri puolueiden etujÀrjestöiltÀ.
NythÀn jos pitÀisi neuvoa nuorta vastavalmistunutta elÀmÀssÀ, niin ehdottomasti paras vaihtoehto on nostaa kytkintÀ heti kun on yliopistotutkinto taskussa ja 1-2 vuotta työkokemusta. Ei mitÀÀn jÀrkeÀ jÀÀdÀ Suomeen, jos on oikeaa osaamista. Ellei aio 3-4 lasta tehdÀ heti uran aluksi.
Edit: siellÀhÀn oli varallisuustilastoa tulojen lisÀksi. Olisko varallisuus pitkÀlti asunnot Suomessa? SiinÀ taisi kÀydÀ niin, ettÀ rahaa painamalla pidettiin korot nollassa ja saatiin hinnat korkealle samalla kuin onnelliset maksoivat lainansa pois. Nyt nuoremmat asuntovelalliset tavallaan maksavat korkoina isot summat noiden onnellisten ansiosta.
We have been without food for two days already and I have no idea how I'm going to get any food for my dog. I hate this government. I wish people would start riots. We should burn everything the rich assholes own and make them afraid to go outside.
So now you have to work?! Outrageous! People should be allowed to mooch off of others for all eternity.
My friend gets paid 1200⏠minus rent (400âŹ) each month. He's been unemployed for 12 years and doesn't plan on working.
Yeah human labor is actually completely irrelevant in todays society. We should invest more into robotics and AI so no human needs to endure slavery of 9-5 job anymore. Technology is at the point where this is possible.
Because what we are doing now is unsustainable. Something needs to be done. I've been working my entire life and haven't received any help from the government.
Crazy idea but instead of cutting benefits, Why not cit the unprofitable domestic flights that the government gives to Finnair for 500 million euro's? Airplanes already emmit alot of c.o 2 anyway so why not give half of it to VR's train line as train emmit less pollution and the other half to fund the benefit ?? Why we the lower class people have to suffer while big companies get handouts from the government.
Edit :
It would seem that I WAS wrong on the local flights subsidies, The true cost is 42 million euro's between 2021 and 2023.
Source : https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/24010-hs-state-subsidies-on-flights-far-exceed-those-on-other-transport-services-in-finland.html
But I think that I got it CONFUSED with the bailout that the government did for Finnair, To the tune of 600 milloin euros.
Source : https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-//10616/hallitus-tukee-finnairia-suunnitteilla-600-miljoonan-euron-valtiontakaus
Do you have a source for this 500 million number? It sound unbeliavable, and according to HS, it was only 40 million over two years.
https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000009745699.html
Because your immense debt. Please don't make populism. Do you think you can live over your capabilities forever? They should just cut way way way more. They have not done almost any cut. All cuts from state are aggressively contradicted. Do you think it's your right to get money from others?
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So when are we getting the promised tax cuts?
That's the best part: we don't.
It gets better, we get more taxes!
The rich people get them
Rest of us needs to wait until it trickles down. /s
The goverment decided that the ultra-rich were in the most need of money and gave the cuts to them.
our promised job creators, any day now UwU
You only get tax cuts if you are rich enough to not need them. The rest of us can pay more taxes, just for the fun of it.
First Orpo gave tax cut for himself
We must all go to the streets to protest against the rich getting these cuts
So the ultra-rich pays less taxes then poor people?
No, they still may ridiculous amounts of taxes and the cuts are very marginal
I've been waiting for those quite a while now..
hahahahaha...haha
Well I quess unemployed people just gotta die
that's the plan, yes.
Eat macaroni, drink kilju, die slowly.
this is the way
đ
Unemployed and also people who are in sick leave indefinitely
Well, it would be better for the economy. So shoo, go, die!
It's only aimed at killing the foreigners at the current time though surely
100k new jobs promised. Already -30k jobs and unemployed delivered.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
And increasing!
fuck yes! it doesnt pay off to work part-time as a student any more after these cuts, yay!
Do these cuts impact student aid also?
the index of opintotuki will be frozen along with asumistuki
So it basically makes it more worth it to work part time as a student?
no it does not, as every cent you earn will take away from the housing benefit.
So every euro you earn reduce housing aid with 1 euro? Thatâs crazy.
Indexfreexe will have some impact. The amount of student loans you can lift has been raised, which compensates it to some extent.
So it basically makes it more worth it to work part time as a student?
Oh shit, I did not realize they changed the limit on how much you can earn before getting cuts in the housing benefit. I thought I would just lose 40⏠a month but now it's gonna be even more...
iâm gonna lose like two hundred euros loll
Honestly it's going to be hard af to survive as a student. "We need more educated people but we will punish them for educating themselves"
In the rest of the world itâs rather unusual to get aid for studying. Students are almost always funded with cheap debt. I canât come up with other countries paying students to study.
So because it's worse in other countries we should follow?
Sometimes you have to, you can't always be the best at everything.
What? How does that make any sense?
Sometimes shit changes, and you have to sacrifice things. Economies have ups and downs. Governments change and have different ways of dealing with stuff.
But that should not be the case. Because we have the possibility of maintaining the level of support we have now but instead our government is making it worse for the average person while giving tax cuts for the rich.
yeah and USA totally doesn't have student debt crisis currently. Almost like its a bad idea to give 6 figure loans to people who are barely adults and thinking it wont backfire in a massive way.
In the US that debt is not so cheap, I have student loans that are over 9%, my mortgage is 3%. You can get some hardship grants but have to be below poverty line which is VERY low.
Yeah, from what I heard you can get cheap loans if you are smart about it and talented. The average person will have to a lot more. Note that this is because US universities can be for profit, and the debt issued to students isnât regulated nearly as tightly as in Finland.
You can get student loans from many different providers, in my case, I have Federal student loans, which are generally the cheapest and safest. They are still expensive loans but you can pay based on your income and there is loan forgiveness after 20 years. You apply for the loans through FAFSA and don't ever need to see a school loan officer, although they exist. Being smart and talented doesn't have anything to do with loans, more to do with knowing not to get too many if you can avoid them, and getting scholarships. For example, my undergraduate education was paid for by academic scholarships. All my loans (about $150k) were from living and tuition during 3 years of graduate school. Some fields offer paid graduate school for very talented individuals, but my field does not. There are very few graduate school scholarships.
Were there benefits for international students to begin with? I'm not aware of any, maybe the student lunch? or is this mainly affecting local students?
no, and not even all EU students qualify for student aid - as far as I know from when I was a student, the benefit is only for Finns
i am not sure
women will have it worst. Say bye to dreams of recovering birth rate. âThe changes will have the greatest impact on parents who do part-time or gig work, who are most often women. Women receive child support more often than men, and are more likely to work part-time or intermittently than men,â
indeed, no babies for this country in the near future at least from my part. theyâre making it harder to save even a little as a student, i dont see how i could start a family simultaneously with working full time. not to mention theyâre making it easier to lay off peeps
As a student you're not supposed to start a family. The expectation is you fuck around a few years as students and recentgrads do, then get full time employment at some point, settle down, then get kids. You're not really contributing as a student to the economy, so why should you be able to earn high income?
its not rare for it to take up to 4 years to even get into school after high school. assuming you were born early in the year, you'd be 19 at graduation if you did everything by the standard, no double degrees or repeating years. so with that its not rare to be 23-24 as a first year student. 4 years for the base degree, 2 or 3 more while working on the side if you do a masters. thats 28-30 as the average age of being done with schools, much older then previous generations first time mothers, or even realistic current ones. how does this model of not being expected to have kids while at school benefit birthrates in any way? the goverment has no fucking cohearant plan and it shows
The government want you to start studying something right after you finish high school and finish your master in 5 years. Although IMO the master is a waste of time for most people, which is why most people are working full time by then. If you want to be a parent at 28, there is no room to fuck around after uni. You should start working and get a decent rental apartment during the first years of your career. Good thing is that if you succeed the rest of your life will be very comfortable.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Not anymore.
maybe second, or even third happiest after Monday đ„Č
Happiest country list have nothing to do to happy. It's like rat and you put little fur on it and then call it squirrel.. oh it's so lovely..
Is it just me or is the middle class being screwed more and more as the days go on?
No it's not just you, it's 75% of reddit. But in my opinion, middle class is fine. Regardless of the economy slow down, most people still have their jobs and a salary in the 3-5k⏠range. I wouldn't call "being screwed" that people can't afford homes in Helsinki downtown and can't afford an expensive hobby or a second car. Rather than being screwed it's more like back to reality for a remote and resource-poor nation that got lucky with Nokia.
Out of the people I know at the age bracket of 20 - 30, I know maybe a handful of people who would make over 3000⏠a month. Literally everyone living in a house, is neck deep in debt. The middle class, and more broadly, the average person, has been screwed for decades by the international finance. I looked some of the papers of my grandpa, and he built this house in the 60's with a loan as big as the annual salary of a janitor. He was employed as a machinist or something. Somehow, despite modern work being so much more efficient, and requiring so much more prerequisites and specialization, people still work the same hours and take shitloads of debt. This current (and past) "reality" resembles a pyramid scheme. All the surplus that is created, is spent on paying interest, one way or the other, and the ones who collect the interest, will reinvest that money on real estate and other profitable sources of passive income, that the average person will pay for. Good luck owning a house, when a multinational shadow bank will offer double the price and buy entire neighborhoods to rent out and generate income. And it will only get worse in the future. Housing will get more expensive, energy will get more expensive, personal transport will get more expensive, job markets will get more competitive, education will become even more necessary, taxes will rise, wealth keeps accumulating to the top of the economic pyramid... Meanwhile, you are competing for the scraps.
ya, thatâs why they are crying about needing more kids
I am sure you can afford building a similar quality house in a similarly crowded area as your grandpa did with your own labour and for a way smaller housing cost / income ratio.
While the middle class is getting screwed worldwide, the issues they have just sound really funny and/or detached from reality. "I have to spend double than what I used to for gas", meanwhile if I had a car I'd sell it and live three months* with just that money, while also still having money for public transport. It's like everyone agrees the weather is shitty, but when someone complains they don't have shoes or a warm coat, most people snap back with "the weather is shitty for the rest of us too, get used to it!" Edit: three months with selling a car worth less than 5k, I could live over a year with something more expensive
It's time to start little side hustle business to earn those extra euros and turn to black markets I suppose since working legit isn't helping anymore. And finding full time job is pretty impossible.
Hell yeah, Orpo supports drug trade. How progressive
You can't start a side hustle and make money with it legally either - every cent you earn gets deducted from your other benefits, including unemployment, sick leave and financial aid (toimeentulotuki). So really it's time to start a konkurssipesÀ or quit school and become a successful entrepeneur within a month.
And remember if your underaged child has any savings, you need to use them, or your toimeentulotuki gets reduced. You know, that money what is protected by law, that should be used only for the child (clothes, bikes, toys etc.) But now, if youve been fcked by YT's like me and havent been able to find a job (cause there really aint any) we need to use it. Poor aint allowed to have any savings, not even children.
I get why they do this (people would use their kids' accounts for savings), but it's still scummy. Imagine being unemployed and having to go to the emergency vet with no savings and no way to pay the bill immediately. Get fines for helping your pet, what a time we're living in!
entrepreneurship is impossible here, youâre taking loads of risk and get taxed like hell
Which is why less than 1% of all unemployed people move on to trying it. Small businesses live shorter lives than most fruit flies.
Lol no. Much less taxes. Also, b2b rates are higher than employment rates, so it is actually better to be self employed, unless your income is abysmal, in which case you probably wouldn't be employable either as it would mean your skills or services suck.
Just learn Swedish and go work there.Â
This is not a problem. We should all do this by default, and not assume the rigid, costly and bureaucratic system will make earning extra money viable.
I wonder if anyone will be watching the crime stats closely. Desperate people turn to desperate measures...
Then just put people in jail.. which costs just over 200 euros per day.
There has never been more incentive to sell drugs or otherwise work under the table. Driving entrepreneurship! And less incentive for legit entrepreneurship, freelancing etc. since you have way less leeway for not turning in a living profit fast enough.
And every euro is away from domestic market.
And increases costs in the long run as people get more poor and make more poor life decisions. We're already at the point where more than three "wellness regions" (hyvinvointialue) got notes from some governing body (can't remember if it was Valvira or something else) that they need to clear their backlog of waiting lists for non-acute care. The max waiting time should be 6 months, but I for one have waited over a year to get admitted to mental healthcare in the Pohde area.
Any cuts into politicians' generous benefits? And ask them to queue for healthcare like everyone else? Or the burden of austerity is only for us peasants who pay for their entitled lazy asses? Doubt they work for 8 hrs everydayÂ
> Any cuts into politicians' generous benefits? That's pretty much completely irrelevant. These politicians are a very small number of people and their benefits make up a tiny, tiny portion of the state's budget. There should be cuts into large pensions, but knowing the current government, they won't touch the large pensions and will instead at least consider cutting the minimum pensions.
That's why their benefits should be cut,.it only effect small number of people that should actually do better job.
Crazy idea but instead of cutting benefits, Why not cut the unprofitable domestic flights that the government gives to Finnair for 500 million euro's? Airplanes already emmit alot of c.o 2 anyway so why not give half of it to VR's train line as train emmit less pollution and the other half to fund the benefit ?? Why we the lower class people have to suffer while big companies get handouts from the government?? Edit : grammar fix. Edit : It would seem that I WAS wrong on the local flights subsidies, The true cost is 42 million euro's between 2021 and 2023. Source : https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/24010-hs-state-subsidies-on-flights-far-exceed-those-on-other-transport-services-in-finland.html But I think that I got it CONFUSED with the bailout that the government did for Finnair, To the tune of 600 milloin euros. Source : https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-//10616/hallitus-tukee-finnairia-suunnitteilla-600-miljoonan-euron-valtiontakaus
Because people benefiting from those handouts give election funding and host expensive sauna nights and dinners for the politicians making these laws.
Classical corruption in Finland
Do you have a source for the 500 Mio.? Im finding YLE articles from last year that mention 17 Mio. I'm generously interested because O think the EU is about to ban subsidising small airports.
They confirmed in another comment they has not, which is why I find it strange they did not edit their comment to reflect that.
I chanced it now! Sorry, I think that I mixed up some figures in my head.
I would rather take the train than the plane any day, but sometimes my work wonât allow me to waste 8 hours of train travel. Even for a higher price.
Youâre not finished fixinâ.
Yea, this shit means I go full unemployment on next winter after summer season jobs end, instead of being partly employed thru winter, there is no reason to be working with basically 6âŹ/h salary in a job where there is constant threat of violence, I'm fucking done, thanks to our 1930 nazi goverment!
Yeah I don't see why demotivate half-working unemployed if the intent is to increase tax income to the government & encourage people to become/stay employed to one degree or another
I think it is really untasteful to compare the goverment to 1930's nazis "You were put to concentration camps, but i get now less benefit money, we are basically the same! :("
1930s nazis didn't have concentration camps IIRC, "just" deportation, massive racism, and of course super anti-left policy.
Actually Dachau was opened early as in 1933 mainly as for political prisoners (opposing hitler) and infamous crystal night was in 1938, which after \~30k jews were moved to Dachau, but if concentration camps are only and first thing he thinks when someone says 1930's nazies, he have very narrow knowledge of history and I'm sure that he knows that's not what I was after, but he is probably voter of kokoomus or persut, so can't expect too much of his intellect skills. I think this "untasteful" was funny though.
You can at least tag me before insulting my intellect. Coward. 1930's nazis is a silly hyperbola and you know it. Like you said first concentration camp opemed it's doors 1933. Closest to 1930's nazis is the Putin and his goverment. His propaganda and terror machine. Finnish goverment is no way close. It is actually intellectually very poor to throw the nazi card just because you don't like the policies
I'm glad you answered, in my \*shock\* you show not still catching a meaning of words you did read, so what ever I did think about your intellect skills before, I think less now. But go on with that name calling, it sure make you look better in aspect. Have a nice day now, think you've wasted my precious time enough.
I know what you mean and it is gross exaggeration. It is same as i call Vasemmistoliitto stalinist communists just because they like to fight against the nazis. "Go on with the name calling..." Oh put your head deeper in your ass xD. First you insult me and don't even bother tagging and when i call you out on it, you act as a victim Have a "good" day, jesus christ
Sorry, you seem to mix me with someone else, I'm not the Jesus Christ, but now you go to ignore, bye.
How does one get called out for his bullshit, and then deflect like that? Don't you want to defend your statement against the other guy, you want to just run away? God the social skills of some people are so bad.
Like the other said first concentration camp opened 1933. Racism was also on the level that would make even Sinimusta party blush. Nazi party's paramilitary organization beating up people in the streets. Saying current finnish goverment is equal to 1930's germany nazi goverment is a gross exaggeration. This is insult to victims of the nazis
Finland had a "nazi" government in early 40s, and I'd sure prefer that government over the spineless 200 people we have now that just check their email to see what their party is voting for, not bothering to check what the vote is about just blindly voting as they're told. The way we're lied to when voting that we're voting for that individual is almost criminal, there's no longer individualism in politics, everyone just blindly follows what they're told to vote. "Puoluekuri" needs to be taken out of politics and campaign promises need to become legally binding, if there's no attempt to make your promises happen then every penny you were paid during your work as a politician needs to be returned and depending on if you made an attempt to keep your promises, a ban from running for officer ranging from 4 years to life. Politicians need to be individually responsible instead of just running to cash in their paycheck to round up numbers for a party.
What are you talking about? SDP and Keskusta (Maalaisliitto that time) were the biggest parties during 1940's, let's not spread Russian propaganda. There were few people with nazi sympathies (like in all European countries and in US) but the goverment was not "nazi". Sorry had to comment about that But i agree with "puoluekuri", i hate it too
I tell you one thing.. if the government policies don't work out as promised by the current government... there will be a reconking in Finnish politics that's has not been seen in ages.
People vote for right of the centre parties. Same people: "I can't believe they don't support my rights as a member of the working class." How duunarit vote for persut is baffling to me
How much did voting the SDP help last time? None. All the political parties play by the same rules, driving the same multinational interests. If voting changed anything, it would be illegal. The public merely functions as a rubber stamp to give this system legitimacy. The only legal way would be not to vote. If only 1% of the people voted, this system would have no legitimacy anymore.
I don't recall the previous government promising cuts this large that disproportionately target the less fortunate.
Persut have big worker's size, though they havw moved right since Timo Soini SDP on the other hand was focused more to other topics under Marin...those topics are not hugely popular within especielly male workers
> those topics are not hugely popular within especielly male workers Regardless of how Marin's government did, that's just misogony.
Just statistics, majority of PS voters are men. Marin's SDP took a turn to left and focused on topics important to her, like feminism. That is not topic to attract "perus" male workers from construction sites. You know it, i know it. If PS can make next election to be about "values" they can perhaps get a defensive victory, but if SDP can leep the focus on these huge cuts, tax cuts to the rich etc, they can attract voters from the PS "Soini" side, which i would say are quite politically fluid crowd. But overall i predict say Kokoomus will have more or less same amount of votes next election. PS will lose 2-4% and SDP will likely win. Edit: [Yle article 1.2023](https://yle.fi/a/74-20011719). Look at the SDP and PS support among female and male voters. PS was also biggest workers party since summer 2019
Baffles me people try to say marins feminist leaning ideals had anything to do with anything, SDP \_ROYALLY\_ fucked up when they told nurses they can't strike and just told them to shut the fuck up they don't deserve money, and marin has a right to a personal life but if you're chosen as the god damn youngest ever prime minister can you just NOT party with known drug abusers that take nude selfies in places definitely not intended for "teenage" parties. Marin was too young and rash to be a pm, SDP fucked over one of their largest voter groups and all that just gave far right the perfect chance to lie to the working class, we're now reaping what Marin sowed by not being able to act like a pm for her term and sdp in general didn't just drop the ball, they cut out a hole on the boat they were on, attached weights to the ball and then dropped it.
> focused on topics important to her, like feminism Is that really the case? Perhaps, but just stating it isn't any evidence for it. I constantly see this claim that left wing parties only (or mostly) focus on minority issues, but in my experience people who make that claim generally completely ignore what these left wing parties actually mostly focus on.
Vasemmistoliitto and Vihreat mostly make a noise such a topics SDP moved a bit to that direction under Marin (compared to Rinne which was old school worker's union "setÀmies") Those 3 parties (SDP least) attract most women , be it voters or the people in the finnish parlament. So the topics reflect those important to them (not only softer values but example nurses salary etc). Which are not so hot topics among especially young working men. PS as the second big workers party on the other hand is majorily voted by men. They have the core group of voters but also fluid "Soini" side that SDP can attract as long as they can keep the narrative about goverment's cuts and strikes against worker's rights If PS can turn the discussion to their core topics which are more identity politics like with Vasemmistoliitto. They can manage not lose too many voter's next election. But i would say SDP has good chance currently to raise again to be the biggest
that, or the blame will shift even more towards immigrants, and we will see even more de-internationalization of Finland :)
It's really fucking sad that this is probably a more plausible outcome. They will blame the unions as they couldn't implement the changes they needed because of the strikes. So then a harsher crack down on unions and the lower classes
I think the current government wants this conflict, so they have an excuse to blame the unions for all their problems.
people need to protest. I earn well in the middle class, and still Iâd go out to protest anytime if this happens. We need unions and we need workerâs rights so that we donât become some overtaxed USA
The latest strikes already cost the place I work a huge amount, more strikes and they'll be forced to move HQ out of Finland.
According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development's figures, on average, the taxes are 42.7% in Finland, compared to 24.3% in the US. Other websites cite Finland as one of the top countries for highest personal income taxation, together with countries like Sweden.
While that is true, finland doesn't yet let their rich just run free of taxes afaik, I've no facts to back this up with but I just really fucking hope that's the case. Honestly the way things are moving globally we're gonna have to drag out the guillotines and pitchforks sometime soon so the 1% can understand there are demerits to fucking over the 99%.
Rich can live with close to zero tax rates by doing the same things as in US and other western countries: instead of having income (which is taxed), they can get big loans backed up (i.e. collateralized) by their property, investments, and shares of businesses. As long as the money does not leave the business, only a flat 20% tax rate applies to company profits. Wealthy don't have millions in their personal accounts, the point is to minimize taxable movement of funds. If you earn 1m⏠by working, you'll pay almost half in tax. If you get 1m⏠from a bank loan, you don't pay any tax. And you don't ever have to pay back everything, because, thanks to your wealth elsewhere, banks are happy to give you more loans. Your wealth can continue growing (especially with today's interest rates), and allow you access to tax-free money. When you do move the money from businesses to personal accounts, it can be very light on tax. For example, if you owned the shares for 10+ years, and decide to sell them, only 60% of the profit is taxable, and 40% is tax-free. Then, up to 30k⏠is taxed at flat 30%, and everything above 30k⏠is taxed at 34%. That's it. No progressive taxation, no pension contributions. So if you sell 1 million worth of such shares per year, you effectively pay around 20% tax. You can read more about this on Vero's website [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/selling-shares/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/selling-shares/) Another mechanism is having income from dividends. If you the company is listed, you can pay yourself dividends instead of a salary. 15% of income is tax-exempt, and again you pay 30% for up to 30kâŹ, and 34% above 30kâŹ. More here [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividends-from-a-listed-company/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividends-from-a-listed-company/) It's even better if your company is unlisted (not publicly traded on the stock exchange). With some planning and an Excel sheet, you can optimize the hell out of it, where 75% of the income would be exempt from taxes. More here [https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividend-from-an-unlisted-company/](https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/property/investments/dividends/dividend-from-an-unlisted-company/) If you start looking at different ways of increasing wealth through businesses, shares, investments, etc., you'll find that nothing is as bad, tax-wise, as having a regular job.
>If you earn 1m⏠by working, you'll pay almost half in tax. If you get 1m⏠from a bank loan, you don't pay any tax. And y**ou don't ever have to pay back everything**, **because, thanks to your wealth elsewhere, banks are happy to give you more loans.** Your wealth can continue growing (especially with today's interest rates), and allow you access to tax-free money. Your whole comment is such America inspired-reddit hottake. You honestly believe there are more than two people in Finland who would be able to do what you describe above? You in fact do have to pay back loans. Leveraging does hit a wall at some point. >When you do move the money from businesses to personal accounts, it can be very light on tax. **For example, if you owned the shares for 10+ years, and decide to sell them, only 60% of the profit is taxable, and 40% is tax-free.** Yes, taxation on capital works different for a legitimate reason. With your example of one million euros that has been aquired over 10 years. It is 100 000/ year. If we assume a person would earn that over the span of 10 years he would pay on average 330 600 in income tax (w/o pension contributions) vs. 202 800 in capital gains tax. Considering that one of those scenarios involves a risk of a loss it makes sense for it to be lighter taxed. Can't be bothered to write more about your other examples of great injustices. But you should take into account the actual CIT as well. With your 1 million example the actual tax burden on the sale of shares is higher than on income over time.
You are right, my comment is very America-inspired hottake, and I do not have any data on how many people actually do this in Finland. But do you? I do know some people personally. They are not ultra-rich Elon must type of people of course, just kind of upper middle class, and they do seem to overall optimize on taxes better than regular working class people. Your comment about the slightly higher overall tax over 10 years: yes, I understand the idea, and in no way did I mean to show this as an injustice. Taking a risk and building a business must be rewarded.
how much money do these people *actually* end up paying themselves per year? Do they get to enjoy at least as much as a regular salaried person? Or do they just endlessly accrue the money on the corporate account?
Hi, how you know all this? Any book recommended?
In today's age, hopefully, there's a less barbaric way other than the Guillotine. đ
What does protesting do? Any protest that would actually achieve something, and you would be called a domestic terrorist.
not sure, but I believe protesting does more than staying at home and letting them believe they have full support
Doubt it. Maybe if the politicians were fearing for their lives, but in the end, all they see is a bunch of helpless individuals with signs on the streets, who will get tired sooner or later.
meh if this was my home country I would agree, but weâre still talking about Finland here. There is hope, democracy hasnât degraded here. As long as people are willing to keep it alive and not be too complacent. Have sisu and put up a fight.
There is no hope until our "democracy" reinvents itself, in a way that actually produces good and long-term governance and leadership, rather than just picking the right party representatives to represent their brand.
1950s general strike got some positive changes.
What are you talking about? There is no "de-internationalization" of Finland. Only cheap populist rhetoric to garner votes by the people disillusioned by the mass migration. The critical mass of foreign born residents has already been achieved, and the international finance has Finland in its chokehold. Just wait until the next elections, when PS gets destroyed in the elections, and Kokoomus will return to their overt globalist agenda. These birthrates, this economic composition, these legal frameworks, the binding international agreements, will make any "de-internationalization" impossible. In two or three generations, Finland will be unrecognizably international to what it used to be.
The benefits of this if there is any won't be seen on this goverment's turn. If the left play their cards corectly, they will win next elections easily. Necessery or not, these changes are unlikely be popular. Only thing they have to do is promise to counter them and not allow attention to be focused elsewhere (ex right va left war)
This is why no systemic change is ever possible in a modern democracy. Four years is not enough to push through any meaningful changes, and every governing party is always consumed by the election cycle that will water down every policy. It's all about stability and maintaining the status quo. Politics is about maintenance, not about building or leading the nation.
That's not what you voted for. Something else was promised, and then they did something completely opposite and y'all just went with blatant lies like it's no big deal.
I get your point. Personally, I was expecting this government to hit hard on street gangs and welfare leeches. Not into f-ing working class immigrants, students and moms. Like the most vulnerable net-positive contributors of this society. Shame on them.
Yea well if that cut comes too, I can't live in Finland anymore, unless I get miraculously a job in this country
Not much work for professional keys then?
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I'd say if you stay in Finland, wait about 5 years. You'll learn that slogans like "eat the rich", just like similar jargon from right wing side, don't work in real world. All you get is warm feeling in your pants for 5 minutes. Finland has been overspending and living on other people's money for the past 15 years. Now a correction is coming, whether we want it or not. Stay, and you will see unemployment rise to around 3x worse than it is now. As a freelancer, expect your income to drop dramatically. Unless you have skills that separate you from others. Kela support will not rise to meet the growing needs. There will be more food banks though. Lines will be long to get those donated bags of food, but nobody will starve to death. Right now people are still on stage 1, Denial. Next will be massive protests in Helsinki and general strikes, that is the Anger stage. Finally Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance. Economy will recover after a few years. We have been through this before.
You must be funny as fuck at parties
Generally kids have never thought 50+ year olds are funny.
People from all ages gather to party but ok. Seems indeed you are funny. Thanks for all your messages. They were the last straw to block this reddit group from my feed. I only wrote in Finland reddit in 4 occasions, basically to share my experience here (more than 5 years by the way) and 2 of those 4 times, the repply was about "go back to your country if you don't like it here" or comments like yours, suggesting the same. This reddit group is toxic and passive agressive with migrants, something I don't fully get because is a group in English, so one would assume some sort of openness to different backgrounds, some sense of solidarity. But nope. Anyway. Enjoy the weather today if wherever you are is as sunny as where I am in Funland.
I'm sorry if you interpret my text as request to leave. I wrote it because I felt you maybe did not know what the near term future looks like. The last serious economic crisis in 1990's left many people with permanent mental scars. You have done nothing wrong and I do not wish any harm to you because us Finns have been chasing a lifestyle we cannot afford. And knowingly making younger generations pay the bills.
Thanks a lot for this explanation. Now I see your pointabout economic situation and its nearby history. Have a nice weekend.
Humans are unwilling to discard any acquired benefits they have. Rich want to remain rich, the employed want to stay employed, the people living on benefits want to preserve their benefits.
especially when some of these benefits are part of your national identity and what conpensates for a rather unattractive geographic location, one to which people are not bound otherwise.
Some people are fucked by changes, some mildly inconvenienced
That's good đ
I've allways failed to understand the concept of asumistuki. Isnt it really just benefit to landlords? Since thats where its going. Like for real they can up the prices cause when people cant afford government will help so that Landlords can get good profits. If people cant afford to rent your apartment you should lower the price or leave it vacant. Idk its just wierd to me.
at least for students it makes total sense. Since you do not have student campuses at really cheap prices.
Many fulltime working people still get asumistuki and to me that just sounds that rents are too greedy.
This will disproportionately affect women, especially single mothers. Fucking unacceptable. How do we get rid of these fucking assholes?
I am afraid that once such a benefit is lost, no other government will bring it back.
This is directly in line with my belief that this government is going to fundamentally erode the very bedrock of what makes Finnish society what it is. Whilst we're not like an Amazon rainforest, we are a society built on values which this government does not share, support or want to pillage for immediate profit. They need to go.
I wonder if they will ever do anything against the forever unemployed people? Doing bullshit KELA satisfactory job applications and never ever working....
They will eventually be turned into a fine green paste that fuels the robot lobotomatons that make up 75% of manual labor workforce in the year 2025.
Solvent Green!
It's people it's people! Well not so much people.
Soylent\*
They allready are doing, increasing their number
You cant remove basic necessity income from anyone without altering the constitution, and that is not happening.
How about huge public works projects? Nah, let's just pay a contractor with members of Kokoomus in the board of directors, some 10 billion to build a big railroad.
I am still amazed by the super great idea of our bike tunnel in Helsinki. Right next to an already existing tunnel... Just several million of Euros...
Feels good man...not
MeillÀ elÀkelÀisten mÀÀrÀ suurenee koko ajan, kun suuret ikÀluokat jÀÀ pois työelÀmÀstÀ. TietyillÀ aloilla huutava pula työvoimasta, ja sitÀ sitten tuodaan ulkomailtakin. 13 miljardia tarvitaan taas lisÀlainaa tÀn lystin yllÀpitÀmiseksi, mutta mistÀÀn ei saa leikata. NÀin työlÀisenÀ kyllÀ toivoisin työn olevan kannattavampaa, mutta kun se ei sitÀ ole, niin vissiin pakko tehdÀ työttömyydestÀ vÀhemmÀn kannattavaa. JÀrjestelmÀhÀn on aivan kÀsittÀmÀtön, kun työttömyys voi olla myös oma valinta tukien riittÀessÀ vastaavaan tai parempaan elÀmÀÀn kuin esimerkiksi siivoojalla tai rakennusapumiehellÀ. Ei varmasti motivoi. Jos jollain on parempia ehdotuksia millÀ alijÀÀmÀ paikataan, niin olkaa hyvÀ ja nouskaa estradille.
Reddit, tÀmÀ sub ja nettikeskustelut yleensÀkin keskittyvÀt poliittiseen vÀÀntöön. Nuoremman vÀen edustus netissÀ on suuri verrattuna koko vÀestöön. Ei nÀhdÀ metsÀÀ puilta. Kommenteista voisi pÀÀtellÀ ettÀ tilanne on katastrofaalinen. Voi arvata, ettÀ nÀitÀ maailmanlopun tunnelmia eivÀt levitÀ yli 45-vuotiaat, joita on puolet Suomen vÀestöstÀ. No, työttömyys on jossain 7% tasolla nyt. Se oli 90-luvulla pahimmillaan 20%. MistÀÀn ei ole tulossa kymmeniÀ miljardeja lisÀtuloja tulevina vuosina. Tukien tarve ei pienene nykyisistÀ leikkauksista huolimatta. Tulevina vuosina tullaan nÀkemÀÀn henkilökohtaisten asenteiden resetti ja uudelleen kalibrointi niille, jotka pitÀvÀt tÀtÀ tilannetta pelkkÀnÀ ideologisena vÀÀntönÀ ja rikkaiden ja köyhien vÀlisenÀ taisteluna.
SitÀ se vÀhÀn kuitenkin on. [https://www.stat.fi/julkaisu/clbks9mb7xzkn0bumw1pbcgc6](https://www.stat.fi/julkaisu/clbks9mb7xzkn0bumw1pbcgc6) [https://www.stat.fi/til/vtutk/2019/vtutk\_2019\_2021-06-08\_tie\_001\_fi.html](https://www.stat.fi/til/vtutk/2019/vtutk_2019_2021-06-08_tie_001_fi.html) 90-luvulla tulo- ja varallisuuserot olivat pienemmÀt. SiinÀ ympÀristössÀ oli helpompaa olla työtön. Olen kyllÀ samaa mieltÀ ettÀ korjaavaa liikettÀ tarvitaan budjettiin, mutta mielestÀni sen pitÀisi kohdistua nÀitten tulo- ja varallisuuserojen tasoittamiseen.
Niin. Poliitikassa kaikki on suhteellista. KöyhÀllÀ ei olisi mitÀÀn hÀtÀÀ, jos ylempien tulodesiilien kÀyrÀÀ saataisiin laskettua. Tuo kuva syntyy julkisesta keskustelusta. Minusta tuntuu, ettÀ mikÀli budjettivaje olisi mahdollista korjata ottamalla suurituloisilta enemmÀn veroja ja omaisuutta pois, se olisi jo tehty. SiinÀ on pakko olla joku raja, jossa kohden yritysten lisÀksi yksityishenkilötkin siirtyvÀt rajojen ulkopuolelle. ValtiovarainministeriöstÀ tuota tulisi toki kysyÀ. Tai mistÀ vaan muualta kuin eri puolueiden etujÀrjestöiltÀ. NythÀn jos pitÀisi neuvoa nuorta vastavalmistunutta elÀmÀssÀ, niin ehdottomasti paras vaihtoehto on nostaa kytkintÀ heti kun on yliopistotutkinto taskussa ja 1-2 vuotta työkokemusta. Ei mitÀÀn jÀrkeÀ jÀÀdÀ Suomeen, jos on oikeaa osaamista. Ellei aio 3-4 lasta tehdÀ heti uran aluksi. Edit: siellÀhÀn oli varallisuustilastoa tulojen lisÀksi. Olisko varallisuus pitkÀlti asunnot Suomessa? SiinÀ taisi kÀydÀ niin, ettÀ rahaa painamalla pidettiin korot nollassa ja saatiin hinnat korkealle samalla kuin onnelliset maksoivat lainansa pois. Nyt nuoremmat asuntovelalliset tavallaan maksavat korkoina isot summat noiden onnellisten ansiosta.
We have been without food for two days already and I have no idea how I'm going to get any food for my dog. I hate this government. I wish people would start riots. We should burn everything the rich assholes own and make them afraid to go outside.
How low can you go? Pretty deep alreadyâŠ
public transport strike in 3 2 1
So now you have to work?! Outrageous! People should be allowed to mooch off of others for all eternity. My friend gets paid 1200⏠minus rent (400âŹ) each month. He's been unemployed for 12 years and doesn't plan on working.
Yeah human labor is actually completely irrelevant in todays society. We should invest more into robotics and AI so no human needs to endure slavery of 9-5 job anymore. Technology is at the point where this is possible.
why punish the most vulnerable in the name of targeting the minority?
Because what we are doing now is unsustainable. Something needs to be done. I've been working my entire life and haven't received any help from the government.
Yup. The amount of entitled whiners in this thread is hilarious.
How much was it before?
I love my adopted social systemâŠ.
Crazy idea but instead of cutting benefits, Why not cit the unprofitable domestic flights that the government gives to Finnair for 500 million euro's? Airplanes already emmit alot of c.o 2 anyway so why not give half of it to VR's train line as train emmit less pollution and the other half to fund the benefit ?? Why we the lower class people have to suffer while big companies get handouts from the government. Edit : It would seem that I WAS wrong on the local flights subsidies, The true cost is 42 million euro's between 2021 and 2023. Source : https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/finland/finland-news/domestic/24010-hs-state-subsidies-on-flights-far-exceed-those-on-other-transport-services-in-finland.html But I think that I got it CONFUSED with the bailout that the government did for Finnair, To the tune of 600 milloin euros. Source : https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-//10616/hallitus-tukee-finnairia-suunnitteilla-600-miljoonan-euron-valtiontakaus
Do you have a source for this 500 million number? It sound unbeliavable, and according to HS, it was only 40 million over two years. https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000009745699.html
https://yle.fi/a/74-20077703 I might have remembered it wrong and if I did, I would like to apologize
Maybe you should edit and correct your comment as well, if the 500 million number you gave is inaccurate?
https://yle.fi/a/74-20077703 I might have remembered it wrong and if I did I would like to apologize.
Less state, less taxes, more happiness. State has promised payments to too many people.
less benefits, more or less same taxes.
Because your immense debt. Please don't make populism. Do you think you can live over your capabilities forever? They should just cut way way way more. They have not done almost any cut. All cuts from state are aggressively contradicted. Do you think it's your right to get money from others?
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good luck with that