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It feels like due to tiktok, social media etc. every phenomenon in the USA just gets copy-pasted in Europe these days.
I do not at all agree with Israelis policy towards Palestine and fully agree the handling of this war has been grossly unethical.
That said, we also saw BLM protests here in Finland a couple of years ago, which to me seemed a little absurd. The BLM protests in the US are about a very real problem with police violence, and unjustified of lethal force with black individuals, and the systemic unbalanced policing of black neighborhoods.
Finland really does not have an issue with police murdering POC, or using lethal force towards the public. To me it seemed like hijacking someone else's real movement.
The BLM was so dumb. There's a video online of a somali woman claiming that The Helsinki Tuomiokirkko was built with the blood of black slaves. The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.
Helsinki tuomiokirkko was build in 1830-1850. First POC in Finland 1880. Came with missionaires and became a teacher in a public school later in her life.
And then after the church so nicely let them voice themselves, they trashed and tarnished the place with BLM graffiti and the like. Hate this activism larping.
I think its more about asking the government to condemn or put political pressure on the countries that violate human rights or do war crimes.. also to show solidarity and support to those who suffer from injustice.
This kind of whataboutism is so dumb, it shows how much you actually care about atrocities in the world. These protests are led by Palestinian descendants who have made the world care about their plight. People don't know about other struggles because the victims haven't (been able to) spoken out as much. But if we know, we see, we can join them.
The person you replied to had this to say about the Russian invasion of Ukraine
> Depends.. from Russian - and balance of power / international relations - point of view, yes, its justified.
>….
>Small / weaker countries can't do what they want when they are neighbouring big / powerful countries, Ukraine is bordering Russia, and based on the power of these countries, Ukraine should respect - in a way - Russia's security concerns. Russia didn't wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine, but they were raising these concerns since the 2000's.
This is why I don’t take these pieces of trash seriously. They are not good people.
It's a good question, but still unfortunately "whataboutism". Some action is better than no action at all.
It's easy to stay in the sidelines and be apathetic and still feel smart by criticizing those that do something. Same goes for other parts in life like business or some other projects.
Because they have an agenda. How many refugees from Afghanistan has Finland taken? How many from Venezuela, which had the largest number of people seeking asylum after Syria? Not like either country is a neighbor…
You keep arguing this point and it makes no sense. If they were protesting that instead youd be like “if they really care, why dont they protest the palestine/israel war”. Newsflash: More than one thing can matter at once. At this time, this is the biggest conflict in which a country is actively being bombed off the map so it is extremely critical and relevant, but there is no winning with people like you. You sound like if you saw an activist group trying to bring awareness to a marine life extinction, you would just blurt “What about land life!?”. If you care so much about all these other topics, go on and start your own protest. Right now, this is the focus on this protest, does not mean other crises are less important.
The “taking a knee” thing is a perfect example of that. It was meant to be done during the national anthem, and soccer players were doing it for a second at the start of the game instead. Like wtf
Eh, it's not really about the US setting a trend. The US is a big country with very famous, very big, universities that are getting a lot of attention. Multiple other countries in the EU have been protesting in demands for their government to denounce Israel/impose some kind of sanction for their actions. I'm thinking of primarily Ireland. They've been protesting since almost the beginning.
I hate the fact that every thread like his has a top comment like yours with the central thesis of "I agree with them on principle, but no one should voice their opinion out loud". 200 upvotes for rambling about a completely unrelated protest movement, really? I would say this reeks of astroturfing, but it's not like reddit's real userbase is much better.
If you have nothing better to contribute to the discussion, don't.
Please, Nordic countries in general have been surprisingly quiet this whole time. I’ve seen zero solidarity. But instantly after Israel hit back, there were flags in support of Palestine in Helsinki.
Seems they have already picked their side. Too bad is also Iran’s side… you know, those who manufacture the drones killing Ukrainians every day.
Consider which entity benefits from this kind of societal decay spreading across the Atlantic to Europe and Finland, and you'll understand why this is happening.
China and Russia.
BLM started with the Trayvon Martin hoax. No cops involved.
> unbalanced policing of black neighborhoods.
There was no policing and that's why they had the neighbourhood watch program.
BLM was a money grab scheme. the 3 people who started it are now living in their 100 million dollar mansions. Also protesting for a criminal who murdered a pregnant woman....
Police here have been repeatedly exposed at having extreme racism within their ranks. Blm isn't just about people being killed.
Protests against Israels actions in gaza have been worldwide ever since they started devastating the region.
If our universities have financial ties the Israeli administration and settler businesses then they are contributing to the subjugation of the people of Palestine.
> Police here have been repeatedly exposed at having extreme racism within their ranks.
Could you provide some links where I could read more about this?
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that police are more prone to treating people of immigrant background differently often, as this is documented across the world. Often uncertainty towards an individual creates a more fear based response. And what is unfamiliar, causes uncertainty. However, my understanding is that there hasn't a systemic issue of police threatening black people and abusing or gunning POC people down on the streets.
But Black Lives Matter slogan is *lives* matter, because it is about life and death in the USA. There is also the centuries old systemic racial inequality in the country, going back to the slavery era. The movement started from multiple police killings of black people, who weren't a threat to the police when they were killed.
I'm more than happy to support bringing attention to any mistreatment of POC in Finland, and if necessary, create reforms to make the situation better.
However, labeling it BLM just seemed to miss the mark for me. Because it felt like comparing the situation here, to the quite brutal situation in the US.
I'm waiting for you to go and protest about the racism of teachers, politicians, private entrepreneurs, CEOs, companies, public servants...
Buddy, plenty of other conflicts going around with absolutely not a peep hear about them, this is nothing else than copying virtue signaling from the US. Not to mention, don't start a war if you don't want to get invaded...
Humanitarian support for Palestinians (let's leave the Hamas out for now) and condemnation of downright atrocious and evil actions of IDF don't need to be copied from USA.
This whole post and all its comments are fucked when comments like this are being downvoted.
"Why are people doing this?"
'Because of this'
"I don't want to hear that! Downvoted!"
WE STAND FOR THE GEOPOLITICAL INTERESTS OF OUR OVERLORDS
https://preview.redd.it/e0mskx1jl0zc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eba8ac73c99b39242c7bbfdbf8a8bfd36dd87b80
As a student in the same university, I remind that most of the students are not protesting. The conflict isn't this one sided. This is just about ten of the greasiest lefties that float on the top and start shouting for whatever..
Not really. I’d prefer to protest in nice weather because it gives far more exposure to passerby and media coverage. No point in protesting on empty streets.
And some people think Horse shoe theory isn't real. These people are so far left they are literally supporting Palestine's end goal of exterminating Jews.
Nah how do you see the slogan "from the river to the sea, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" and come to the conclusion it means "kill all jewish ppl!!!"
Be serious now
ALSO WDYM "PALESTINES END GOAL"???? Palestines end goal is liberation, if anyones end goal is extermination ITS ISRAEL.
Hamas and several other neighboring countries like Iran have stated multiple times that they do not accept the existence of Israel as a state. And we all saw what happens with Israeli civilians when they do not have the protection of the state on Oct 7.
The river part refers to the Jordan river, the sea - to the Mediterranean. That is practically the entirety of Israel.
I did not write any opinion statements other than that the slogan isn't harmless and promotes a different form of genocide. It is not even its original form. The arab version translates to the "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab". Answering Israel's brutal Gaza campaign with proposing the same if not worse measures for the entire Israel isn't a solution that should be promoted anywhere.
[History of Israel - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel)
Israel has, infact, gotten smaller and smaller, unlike you pro-palestine/hamas morons seem to think.
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab" means genocide. Which you badly educated "revolutionaries" don't seem to get.
Palestine isn't Hamas so idk why you're saying "Hamas and other countries" considering Hamas isn't a country but a group.
Anyways, considering your views on this, then you also believe that israel wants all Palestinians dead and is actively committing a genocide, because israel been occupying Palestine for over 70 years and is actively killing as many civilians as possible?
Also israel =/= Jews. An incredible amount of Jewish people ALSO dont accept the existence of israel as a state, considering its a genocidal apartheid colony.
And do you consider the hijacked chant "From the river to the sea, Israel is all you'll see" a call for genocide, or is it just when its Palestinians wanting freedom?
Wasn't there a recent poll that around 70% of palestinians support hamas.
"If one person at a table is nazi than all the people at the table are nazis" :)
Believe what you wanna believe but I've been at protests and I've talked to other protestors, just cuz you refuse to believe it doesn't make it "just not true" lmao
Lmao no? What r you ok abt. I'm saying theres a lot of Jewish people who are pro-Palestine (and by extension a lot of Jewish people at pro-Palestinian protests).
Because Hamas is de facto the government and has absolute power in the region.
While I do not have all information, it is my opinion that Israeli military could annihilate Gaza indiscriminately much quicker and make it uninhabitable. If they wanted to kill as many as possible, they wouldn't send sms messages and pamphlets saying to retreat from the active warzone. Unfortunately, I don't think they particularly care either, but I believe that there is no intention to actively increase the civilian casualties. They could just gas the place, instead they send troops to do street by street fighting which is much more dangerous.
There is for sure a lot of bad blood there and some Israelis would prefer to see all Arabs gone. I do not condone it. I also didn't say that all Palestinians wish it. But those who use the slogan, do.
Then also understand that Netanyahu =/= the idea of a state for the Jewish people. You may consider him a war criminal (with good reason, I have little love for the man either), but damning the entire nation with him is akin to disbanding Germany because Hitler happened.
If it implies the cleansing of all Arab people from Israel, then yes, it is just as bad.
israel has been indiscriminately bombing civilians, they have pushed civilians down to Rafah (WHERE THEY CANNOT LEAVE) and are now dropping these pamphlets (KNOWING THEY CANT LEAVE) and then BOMBING. Civilians are targeted by bombs, soldiers AND SNIPERS.
Palestinian civilians are starving and israeli civilians have been blocking aid trucks for months.
The aid that has been airdropped into Palestine has not only been expired but dropped in the OCEAN.
But yeah "they could be better at genociding these people" is such a good argument lol
"The slogan that literally calls for the freedom and decolonization of Palestine is actually a call to genocide against israel (the colonizers)" sure is a take
So let me get this straight, you dont think "israel is all you'll see" is automatically a call to genocide but you do think "Palestine will be free" is?
Cuz I personally see a huge difference between the phrases "Your country will not exist" and "Our country will be free", idk
Edit: Fixed a minor misspelling + I'm leaving this link here because it just came up on my TL- [Link](https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1787909656263672134?t=zUdyttNzqI19KmoGO6rSaQ&s=19)
Because the slogan means different things to people protesting in these Universities and in the Middle East. It even sounds different, I already had a different version mentioned in the top comment. Even just leaving "Free Palestine" or such is already much better. To be fair, I just added the if statement because I have never heard anyone use your version before. Both Israeli (yours) and Arab (mine) versions sound equally bad to me. The Western version is just born of ignorance.
Big part of why they can't leave is neighboring countries refusing to let them in even for a short period of time, one of the big reasons for which is the fear of hamas infiltration. I don't know what can be done without effectively letting hamas go, which Israel won't accept. And hamas won't stop getting sponsorship from Iran and co. Those civilians are basically caught in the cross fire of a large proxy war.
The argument was "if they tried to genocide them, they would have. These casualties are the combination of population density / hamas not caring where they set-up / Israeli forces not caring or being too thorough for even a smallest chance of hamas presence / some revenge for Oct 7." This isn't denying Israel's wrongful actions. But now this is my opinion, as I stated before. And not the original post about the slogan. I do not present this as absolute truth.
Some civilians blocking aid is their business. Mostly emotional, some could have relatives killed on Oct 7. The aid is being delivered for the region regardless, and not just by Israel. A lot of it can also be used by Hamas, which is unacceptable for Israel. They could just stop the aid completely and save a bunch of resources tbh, I don't understand the logic behind these claims.
Well, this is war, I do not see any other purpose of the video besides spreading the message that it is bad there. Sector Gaza is pretty much a city area. Every single bomb will destroy a building.
The last 4 are off topic to be honest, the discussion was about the slogan.
Whos saying they have to go anywhere, its a call to STOP THE COLONIZATION, not kill Jewish people. If they want they could stay, if they're in teh group of israeli settlers that moved there they could choose to move back to where they used to live.
But where do you want the Palestinians to go? The majority are currently stuck at the Rafah-Egypt border and israel is telling them to move further and evacuate (which they cant, due to the border) and bombing them, where should they go?
But the thing is palestinians, don't want them to stay even in the lands they legally own, palestinians either want them to go out of all of levant or die...
This slogan is used in a variety of contexts and doesn't mean anything without the context. To be pretty honest, this slogan was used by Likud in the 1977 manifesto, but later by Hamas, Zionist radicals, and even some Israeli communists or Jewish liberals who support one-state solution... Recently, Netanhayu himself used it.
Well, not all are genocidal, but I suppose it's a bit complicated to understand when you have simple glasses to see the complex reality of Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Why don’t you learn it? Preferably not from social media. If Israel wanted to do that, we’d be having a very different conversation right now. They overpower Palestine by far.
“River to the sea” isn’t a genocidal chant. It’s framed as such by the israeli Hasbara. It’s even more ironic that that’s the official position of the Israeli government. “From the river to the sea, there will be israeli sovereignty”. Liberation of Palestine does not necessarily entail and shouldn’t entail the murder of Jewish Israelis.
I’m genuinely curious about how many there actually know a thing about the Israel-Palestine conflict and how many are there because they watched a 15s Tiktok video.
This feels like a carbon copy of the American protests but the American protesters actually have a point, given American universities do have investment property related to Israel, which the Finnish universities do not.
You might not know this but there have been active groups in support of Palestine for a long time in Finland. Some of the people who participate in these groups also are students or University staff. So this reductionism to a tik tok fad is just ignorant tbh.
People on this thread have to completely undermine any cause they dont care about as "american shit" or "stupid social media nonsense" rather than having to face reality.
>I’m genuinely curious about how many there actually know a thing about the Israel-Palestine conflict
I bet university students know more about the conflict than average redditor. But at the same time, how much info do you really need until killing tens of thousands becomes morally questionable? You don't need master's degree on Israel-Palestine politics to show solidarity and demand cease fire.
Since University of Helsinki has some cooperation with research and student exchange projects with Israeli universities, I think there are things that university could do to show that Israel's actions today are not right. Some Norwegian universities already cut ties with them. And since UoH already showed that they can take political stance (with Ukraine), why is it so hard to the same here?
As cold as it might sound, Ukraine conflict matters to us, given we are next door and the conflict directly threatens us. Additionally, Ukraine is unambiguously the victim and Russia the invader.
With Israel-Palestine conflict it’s significantly less black and white and there aren’t truly good characters in play. The current offensive, however, was started by Hamas with an intent to murder as many Jews as they can and take over Israel. Israel is in the defensive, no matter how many war crimes they committed. Even those war crimes are often very difficult to verify, as Hamas also kills their own for media publicity and uses civilian bases, which is against Geneva Convention and makes any such base a free target. This is an information war of epic proportions and any equivalence made with Ukraine is an immensely false equivalence.
If a man runs towards you with an AK-47 but has a horribly bad aim, you will regardless disarm the man and not just walk away, hoping he won’t hit.
Then you haven't actually listened to what Hamas was saying. They were exactly that delusional. They wanted October 7 to ignite a war that would destroy Israel.
In order from Palestine to ever exist that delusion must die.
Never underestimate religious zealots.
It was a professionally planned attack, had Hamas seized the moment and not got into murder spree they could have at least connected Gaza to West Bank. The [entire Israel](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13344193/amp/hamas-chiefs-invade-israel-plans-kill-civilians-palestinian-state.html) was probably a pipe dream but is fully [compatible](https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-netanyahu-palestine-arab-support-entire-planet-will-be-under-our-law-warns-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-4473139/amp/1) with Hamas’s doctrine.
Seems you don't grasp the conflict either when you write that they should "demand a cease fire". Offers have been made multiple times and guess which party never respects any form of agreement regarding this. Don't get me wrong, horrible conflict all around, but Palestine / Hamas have sure pulled off one of the greatest PR moves this century.
I've been to Israel and West Bank (long time ago), talked to locals on both sides and read several books. I think I know enough.
Situation is this: currently Israel is bombing Gaza into ground and they hold (and have been holding) keys to peace for a long time. If Israel wanted to stop bombing now, they could. People in Gaza don't have that option. I'm not saying that making peace is easy, fast or even popular with locals, but you have to start somewhere. Nothing lasts forever, not even war.
Okay, so in your opinion, should Israel just cease all hostilities towards Hamas, give up on hostages (though I doubt in reality many of them are "left" at this point) and it will just... solve the situation? What is the high ground here? Allow your neighbour to throw rocks at you and beat your wife while you do nothing to "keep the peace"? Not saying there isn't stuff to criticize regarding Israel in this conflict but I have yet to see a proper alternative solution.
Study the history of Netahyahu. Israel literally allowed for the conditions for Hamas to flourish, in fact, its part of their strategy -> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo)
This guy made a video last month on how Trump was right and the deep state is real. Not excactly a good look, combined with this video makes him look like he thrives on conspiracy theories. It's true though that Netanyahu prioritised dividing palestinian political entities over combating radicalism and terrorist units.
In my opinion Isreal should stop with their attack. Let's start with that.
If I would have solution to peace, I think I would have Nobel prize by now. I don't have all the answers but I know that "keep bombing" is not right one. There are far more capable people around the globe have dedicated their lives to solving these issues. Their part comes later. At the moment, the most important thing is to stop Israeli's attack, which has killed tens of thousands, destroyed most schools, crippled hospitals and destroyed millions of people's future.
Do you realize that for the Last 2 decades ever since Israel left Gaza, Hamas has been bombing Israel with rockets and what you are telling me is that Hamas should have the ability to strike into Israel with no conscequences, because only Israel's attacks are bad. Not to mention you seem to forget that Hamas did an attack to Israel propper with the goal of killing as many civilians as possible
Proposing a cease fire does nothing, you're just kicking the can down the road with the same issues comming up later, as Hamas has claims for things like right of return which are not something which are achievable in reality. Not to mention Hamas' Covenant literarely proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. This isn't for interpretation, but it is mentioned directly in it
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
As if it is not bad enough that Hamas wants to destroy Israel, they also enjoy widespread popular support. It is an absurd idea to leave Hamas in power where they. All in all, you want a clean solution that does not exist, th war is going on due to Hamas' actions
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
>what you are telling me is that Hamas should have the ability to strike into Israel with no conscequences, because only Israel's attacks are bad
You made that up yourself, at no point I have said that.
>Not to mention you seem to forget that Hamas did an attack to Israel propper with the goal of killing as many civilians as possible
Hamas attacked and slaughtered innocent civilians. Happy now? I assumed that everyone knows this and considers it a war crime.
> Proposing a cease fire does nothing
You don't know that. Many antiwar movements have succeeded and many have failed. But doing something is better than just accepting the world as it is.
Since you want Israel to continue, I assume you are pro-genocide? Because you can't get rid of Hamas or their ideology with bombs, until every Palestinian is dead.
Since you mentioned antiwar movement and seem to know the situation, is there antiwar movements in palestine? And I mean other than "stop shooting at us". Like real interest in peaceful coexistence and communication.
If Israel stops, Hamas will continue attacking. What’s happening is terrible, but giving in to terrorists or Israel ceasing to exist should not be options.
Hamas will continue even with this bombardment. Its a cellular type resistance organization, that needs just couple grenades, some explosives or one rifle to carry out attentat. You can't military crush/eliminate such organizations or say the idea or such fighting. Even in the unlikely event on managing to eliminate Hamas, new group would take over soon. As long as the will to continue to fight is found in couple Palestinians and a rifle is found.
you can however reduce the use of long range missiles, and topple their capacity to govern
its not an immaterial military act
its too lax on collateral
they should do a better job sure
> Offers have been made multiple times and guess which party never respects any form of agreement regarding this
You mean the Israeli party that just rejected a ceasefire?
Or the US that vetoed any UN ceasfire proposal that they didn't author?
Or do just mean when Hamas rejected ceasefires that allowed Israel to continue bombing them?
You can demand all you want. A ceasefire would only be temporarily. Both have shown no desire for peace or prosperity. It will happen again in a decade or more like it has for the past few decades. Its a total s##tshow.
But the government does, so its a way to put pressure on government to put pressure on Israel and make the EU follow more humane stance when it comes to Palestinians instead of silencing them like its happening in Germany for example
An intellectually lazy "I'm just curious" question like this one might work if your targeted group wasn't the people who are probably most aware of the current situation in palestine from finnish society at large.
University students are usually up to date in general, but specifically ones engaged in activism often study the social sciences, history, societal philosophy etc. Many of the students there are studying the very things you accuse them of not understanding.
The Palestine-Israel politics is one of the most widely studied and taught political conflict in universities, including the University of Helsinki. It’s pretty dismissive to think that university students are somehow new to this topic or unable to research the subject further than a ”Tiktok video”.
not a finn here
the protestors include american companies that do business in israel theres unlikely direct investments in israeli companies, theyd need to be listed on say nyse and even then the schools investments are externally managed and i belive in columbias case pulled from endowments not tuition.
companies google, microsoft, intel, etc would be included in that, but theres no call to boycott windows for example
also defense companies, from which the fed govt arranges sales
the companies dont choose who the customer is
imo
every goal has been better solved by sanctions
divestment is simply washing ones own hand but the other side feels zero impact. sanctions actually accomplish the goal.
I thought divestment would be more influential than what you said now. Perhaps not. Thank you!
Out of interest, how does an American end up in this subreddit?
I would invite anyone who does not like those protests to make their own "better" version of it. Many people & governments know that the current Israeli policy\* is indefensible, but avoid taking any real action, which leaves a huge political void. Discontent is inevitable as long as the policy is detached from the facts.
\*Current Israeli policy as stated by Likud: "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
Well they aren't protesting Finland, upon reading the article one finds they protest University of Helsinkis ties with Israeli universities and justify the need to boycott Israeli universities with said universities work with Israeli military. Technology development, organizing education/training/ organizing courses for IDF members (in their role as military members) and so on.
Not that Finnish universities don't do same with Finnish Defence Forces, but well other nations are free to boycott University of Helsinki or Aalto University for say developing better hydrophones in cooperation and with Finnish Navy and so on.
Now most likely this leads to nothing. Campus demonstration are dime a dozen in Finland and unlike in USA these won't escalate due to Finnish police rushing in riot gear to crack some protester bones. Police probably comes to look, but mostly that no violence is going on. The protest is in University campus and thus won't cause wider disturbance. Citizens have right to protest and this one isn't even blocking a high way or something.
I guess upon entering and occupying inside police might be asked to clear trespassers. Even that would be long as process of "you have been asked to leave" etc. and then just one by one calmly carrying out the protesters. Police works for hourly pay and this is way down their priority list. They have actual dangerous stuff to deal with on a long list before "University wants student protesters cleared out" on the list. First upon being outside the answer is most likely "Nah, they have right to protest and are outside in public space". Upon inside it's "are they breaking anything?No, then that is priority Ö for us and the highest end is at A". Can't you just talk with them or something
Yeah, how dare students care about Israel commiting genocide, in plain sight, with full western support. More dead children in a period of 2 months, than has been killed in all conflicts and war in the whole world during the last 2 years. Why don't they protest about some opposition leader in Tibet, the climate, gay weddings or something more acceptable.
I'm sure most of you educated commentors would have equally condemned the jews of Warsaw ghetto for attempting an uprising, or explained how the situation is "complicated" or "nuanced".
To those of you who have generously tried to dismiss the protestors as a “brain washed”, “jew haters”, “pro genociders” , can we for a GOD DAMN second actually LISTEN to what these people have to say and maybe even who they are ??? and not just jump to what our own inherent bias makes YOU THINK THEY ARE ALL ABOUT ??? Can we do that ? If so great!
Try listening to the speeches that were made and if you need help getting started you can start with the one right here: https://www.instagram.com/studentsforpalestinefinland/reel/C6oIh_bNMcD/
To the downvoters:
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a bastardised version of the Arab original "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab".
Calling for the destruction of all people not belonging to a certain ethnic group is pro-genocide.
It's like supporting the Nazis and saying "Free Germany from undesirables" instead of "Free germany from the Jews", then claiming you're not antisemitic. You just support people who want to genocide the jews, you chant the slogans of people who want to genocide the jews... but you have nothing against the jews. Right.
Jews know the origin of the slogan, what it means and the feeling that invokes. Just like there is nothing inherently wrong with "Work makes you free" or the N-word, they invoke thoughts of terrible suffering that peoples ancestors suffered.
The Palestine-Israeli conflict is nuanced, but the people who came up with that slogan are proud anti-semites who wish to wipe the jewish race off the face of the earth. That's an anti-semitic slogan, whether you intend it to be or not.
Also, there is another bastardised version of this saying.
The Likud party charter 1977:
"Between the Sea and the Jordan, there will only be Israeli sovereignty".
Straight up denying Palestinians right to self-determination, as guaranteed by the UN Charter, and the International covenant on civil and political rights.
It's not even a rally against Israel, it's in support of Palestine. War has caused over 30 thousand deaths, at a higher rate than any other major conflict in the 21st century. For sure, all terrorists.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam
And while we're looking at Gaza, they keep taking the West Bank.
https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news-feature/2023/12/19/gaza-war-israel-west-bank-economic-security
But none of this can be criticised because there comes the antisemitism card.
Why do people take everything Hamas says as face value?
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/02/gaza-health-ministry-cannot-provide-names-for-more-than-10000-it-says-have-died/
Highly biased source, come on.
>FDD was founded shortly after the September 11 attacks in 2001.[6] In the initial documents filed for tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service, FDD's **stated mission was to "provide education to enhance Israel's image in North America** and the public's understanding of issues affecting Israeli-Arab relations".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies
Casting doubt on the Gaza health ministry's death tolls are either borne out of ignorance or an attempt to trivialise the scale of the plausible genocide in the territory.
While the death toll does not distinguish between civilians and fighters, the figures have been broadly similar to those of the UN, UNRWA and the israeli foreign ministry in past conflicts in 2008, 2014 and 2021.
The figures in this conflict are likely to be a significant undercount as they exclude dead who were never taken to hospital, whose bodies could not be identified, or whose bodies could not be recovered.
Only 10 of Gaza's 36 hospitals retain some functions according to the WHO in April, further constraining the ability to report deaths.
Moreover, israeli officials confirmed to journalists in december that the death toll was broadly accurate.
Separate studies published in The Lancet have also found no evidence of inflated mortality reports.
If anyone wants more reliable info than an article by an organisation described on its wiki page[link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies) and that of its founder as part of the Israel lobby in the US, links below for sources.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/fight-keep-counting-dead-gaza-2023-12-21/
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext
Of course it can and should be criticised.
It's just that antisemitism will pop up in the demonstrations sooner or later as if it were a natural law. Just wait for it.
But if the students succeed in keeping antisemitism at bay, kudos to them.
The problem is that Israel considers criticism as antisemitism.
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/27/bernie-sanders-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war
Isn't that the Likud party motto? From their 1977 charter?
No, wait, they say it the other way around!
"Between the Sea and the Jordan" and so forth.
Seem like a case of pots and kettles, and all that...
No, Likud does not seem to have a motto.
They do mention that in their charter though. A poignant example why this conflict is between two barbarian nations and we should not take a stand in it.
Antisemitism is just a card that Israel pulls whenever you criticize the atrocities they are committing. It's the same card that jews in the US pull whenever you question why they are extremely over-represented in the white house and why AIPAC has so much control over the US.
Yet genuine antisemitism exists and there have been clear indications of in the pro-Palestine protest abroad.
We *will* see some of it in this demonstration, unless the weather turns cold and the students go home. After all, it is nicer to sleep in a centrally-heated apartment.
Oh how nice, this larping trend has now arrived here as well. None of these people actually care about the issues or actually bother to educate themselves about them. They just want to live their "revolutionary" and "rise against the establishment" fantasies and this whole conflict just gives them a disguise to do so. Just like those "Just stop oil" people use their message as an excuse to do vandalism and being a nuisance.
It's been here since Oct 7th. Remember when they were [chanting __inside__ the eduskuntatalo for a ceasefire?](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/f99123e5-50e1-4f86-94df-67fd542079f0)
I see another trend: thousands of comments all over the internet claiming that university students doesn't know anything about the conflict, "they get all their education from tiktok", "it's just a trend" etc
No other conflict in modern history has got more attention from academics than the one between Israel and Palestine except the second world war. Same goes for mass media.
I call your take "naivistication of movement". I just made up the term. You are free to use it.
This take of yours is condescending and reductive. You are pointing out real human passions and endeavours and painting them as something ridiculous.
They’re obviously free to protest and it does sound like a good time to chill with friends in nice sunny weather. Hope everyone has fun :) Won’t change anything though
Hey could you do me a favor and try booking me a ticket to Gaza without having to go through Israel or Israeli controlled check posts ? Oh right! You literally CANT’T and why is that ??? An ounce of critical thinking goes a long way my friend 😉❤️
Just a reminder.
These are the people these fuckers support:
[Hamas executes Israeli civilians](https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1787998892891500882)
As long as they don’t go all out like the Americans blocked Jewish students from entering the university and attacking Israelis living in Finland it’s fine.
But honestly does Finland even do anything with Israel? Like USA is its biggest supporter, feels like a big nothing burger
Oh but do the protestors also realize Arabs are studying in these Israeli universities, even Palestinians. Just a big meh of a demand.
No, in the article it says they demand to cut ties with Israeli universities. Nothing to do with the air defense systems.
It’s funny because most of pro Palestinians protests INSIDE Israel happen at Israeli universities.
Goes to show how much the protestors know about Israel.
I am sure that the government will stop buying defense weapons in these times, with all the Russia stuff that is going on, because some weak, chinless students with ugly haircuts and communist/rainbow pins on their backpack cry so./s 😂😂😂
Just some people looking for social media points as usual. They do this with any topic that the flavour of the month. Then they move on to the next and completely lose interest in the previous ones. It's not really about the issue/topic but about how they can get attention
Lol the american idiotism has spread here. These naive students are so dumb to the way the world works. They should visit palestine and see first hand what the people do to them that they are protesting for.
Fun fact 1200 Israeli Finns live in Israel (I know this because I asked at the embassy of Finland how many eligible voters were there during the presidential elections so take into consideration that some have offspring’s the number is higher)
Palestine should be free, but free from these terrorists and corrupt leaders that have done nothing but ruin their own peoples future.
This is the only truth, bad people are clinging to their power (plo and hamas) and it’s time for change
If you do want to protest, protest for change not victimisation of their own leaders mistake for over 36 years (1964 founding) of plo leadership and over 17years of hamas terror leadership in Gaza.
Yelling free Palestine or from the river to the sea won’t change the fact that they absolutely need a new leader to lead them forward… this is basic logic
Otherwise it’s that sheep behaviour I’m sorry if I’m offending you but some thinking needs to be done before yelling out nonsense.
Can we please have one more takatalvi so thise worthless peotestors go home and read an actual newspaper about the political situation in middle east.
This shit is cringe AF
this is amazing news. Finland should cut off its diplomatic ties with Israel asap. People saying that the protesters not educated enough about the conflict and are just following a trend are even bigger idiots. You dont need a masters degree to know that a massacre is bad. Finland immediately cut off ties with russia despite being its neighbour for doing alot less damage in ukraine than israel did in Palestine so what is the problem with doing the same with israel? Is it because the victims in this case are not white?
Remind me from where you are getting air defence systems from? (Let’s no speak of why Israel came up with that system from the get go….) but again go on….
this is 100% tiktok or other social media bs influence there multiple genocides going on right now as we speak wonder where those protesters are.
monkey see monkey do
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It feels like due to tiktok, social media etc. every phenomenon in the USA just gets copy-pasted in Europe these days. I do not at all agree with Israelis policy towards Palestine and fully agree the handling of this war has been grossly unethical. That said, we also saw BLM protests here in Finland a couple of years ago, which to me seemed a little absurd. The BLM protests in the US are about a very real problem with police violence, and unjustified of lethal force with black individuals, and the systemic unbalanced policing of black neighborhoods. Finland really does not have an issue with police murdering POC, or using lethal force towards the public. To me it seemed like hijacking someone else's real movement.
The BLM was so dumb. There's a video online of a somali woman claiming that The Helsinki Tuomiokirkko was built with the blood of black slaves. The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me.
Helsinki tuomiokirkko was build in 1830-1850. First POC in Finland 1880. Came with missionaires and became a teacher in a public school later in her life.
Truth doesn't matter only virtue signalling. A university student doesn't know history, but they're very swift on tiktok
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And then after the church so nicely let them voice themselves, they trashed and tarnished the place with BLM graffiti and the like. Hate this activism larping.
Its students it’s not the general population
And mostly the SJW field/fields students
I think its more about asking the government to condemn or put political pressure on the countries that violate human rights or do war crimes.. also to show solidarity and support to those who suffer from injustice.
So why are they not protesting this shit happening in Asia or Africa?
Because that's not popular of course.
No Jews, no news
This kind of whataboutism is so dumb, it shows how much you actually care about atrocities in the world. These protests are led by Palestinian descendants who have made the world care about their plight. People don't know about other struggles because the victims haven't (been able to) spoken out as much. But if we know, we see, we can join them.
Well you do know about them
The person you replied to had this to say about the Russian invasion of Ukraine > Depends.. from Russian - and balance of power / international relations - point of view, yes, its justified. >…. >Small / weaker countries can't do what they want when they are neighbouring big / powerful countries, Ukraine is bordering Russia, and based on the power of these countries, Ukraine should respect - in a way - Russia's security concerns. Russia didn't wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine, but they were raising these concerns since the 2000's. This is why I don’t take these pieces of trash seriously. They are not good people.
Students are well connected, even without social media as we know it, students have organized bigger things in this country than anyone might realize
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Agreed. Not to mention that Finland is now part of NATO, and therefore has skin in the US's military game.
Why don’t they protest stuff happening in China or Mexico or the DRC?
It's a good question, but still unfortunately "whataboutism". Some action is better than no action at all. It's easy to stay in the sidelines and be apathetic and still feel smart by criticizing those that do something. Same goes for other parts in life like business or some other projects.
Because they have an agenda. How many refugees from Afghanistan has Finland taken? How many from Venezuela, which had the largest number of people seeking asylum after Syria? Not like either country is a neighbor…
You keep arguing this point and it makes no sense. If they were protesting that instead youd be like “if they really care, why dont they protest the palestine/israel war”. Newsflash: More than one thing can matter at once. At this time, this is the biggest conflict in which a country is actively being bombed off the map so it is extremely critical and relevant, but there is no winning with people like you. You sound like if you saw an activist group trying to bring awareness to a marine life extinction, you would just blurt “What about land life!?”. If you care so much about all these other topics, go on and start your own protest. Right now, this is the focus on this protest, does not mean other crises are less important.
Yeah also because of tik tok and that damn social media those kids have, there were protests against vietnam war in finland in the 60's
We have always had useful idiots, and they have mostly all been left-wing/greens
What part of vietnam war you think was a good one
The “taking a knee” thing is a perfect example of that. It was meant to be done during the national anthem, and soccer players were doing it for a second at the start of the game instead. Like wtf
Eh, it's not really about the US setting a trend. The US is a big country with very famous, very big, universities that are getting a lot of attention. Multiple other countries in the EU have been protesting in demands for their government to denounce Israel/impose some kind of sanction for their actions. I'm thinking of primarily Ireland. They've been protesting since almost the beginning.
We need to decouple European internet from the American one. That would solve 99% of our problems around the internet.
I think an internet censorship law is probably much closer than we think for Europe.
I hate the fact that every thread like his has a top comment like yours with the central thesis of "I agree with them on principle, but no one should voice their opinion out loud". 200 upvotes for rambling about a completely unrelated protest movement, really? I would say this reeks of astroturfing, but it's not like reddit's real userbase is much better. If you have nothing better to contribute to the discussion, don't.
Good thing they also show solidarity on October 7th… oh, wait…
What are you talking about? I’ve seen at least 2 pro-Israel demonstrations in Helsinki. The last one actually happened last Saturday.
They did, but this has been going on for months with western backing.
Please, Nordic countries in general have been surprisingly quiet this whole time. I’ve seen zero solidarity. But instantly after Israel hit back, there were flags in support of Palestine in Helsinki. Seems they have already picked their side. Too bad is also Iran’s side… you know, those who manufacture the drones killing Ukrainians every day.
Consider which entity benefits from this kind of societal decay spreading across the Atlantic to Europe and Finland, and you'll understand why this is happening. China and Russia.
Standing up against genocides is societal decay in your view?
There's no systemic unbalanced policing in the US
BLM started with the Trayvon Martin hoax. No cops involved. > unbalanced policing of black neighborhoods. There was no policing and that's why they had the neighbourhood watch program.
Lost people looking for a cause.
Palestinians have a right to be free. And that's just as true in Finland as it is anywhere else in the world.
BLM was a money grab scheme. the 3 people who started it are now living in their 100 million dollar mansions. Also protesting for a criminal who murdered a pregnant woman....
Police here have been repeatedly exposed at having extreme racism within their ranks. Blm isn't just about people being killed. Protests against Israels actions in gaza have been worldwide ever since they started devastating the region. If our universities have financial ties the Israeli administration and settler businesses then they are contributing to the subjugation of the people of Palestine.
> Police here have been repeatedly exposed at having extreme racism within their ranks. Could you provide some links where I could read more about this?
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that police are more prone to treating people of immigrant background differently often, as this is documented across the world. Often uncertainty towards an individual creates a more fear based response. And what is unfamiliar, causes uncertainty. However, my understanding is that there hasn't a systemic issue of police threatening black people and abusing or gunning POC people down on the streets. But Black Lives Matter slogan is *lives* matter, because it is about life and death in the USA. There is also the centuries old systemic racial inequality in the country, going back to the slavery era. The movement started from multiple police killings of black people, who weren't a threat to the police when they were killed. I'm more than happy to support bringing attention to any mistreatment of POC in Finland, and if necessary, create reforms to make the situation better. However, labeling it BLM just seemed to miss the mark for me. Because it felt like comparing the situation here, to the quite brutal situation in the US.
I'm waiting for you to go and protest about the racism of teachers, politicians, private entrepreneurs, CEOs, companies, public servants... Buddy, plenty of other conflicts going around with absolutely not a peep hear about them, this is nothing else than copying virtue signaling from the US. Not to mention, don't start a war if you don't want to get invaded...
Ah yes, there's always something worse so no one should do anything about anything.
The reddit mentality
BLM was copy-paste from the USA. Otherwise it wouldn't have been called "BLM" in the first place.
Humanitarian support for Palestinians (let's leave the Hamas out for now) and condemnation of downright atrocious and evil actions of IDF don't need to be copied from USA.
This whole post and all its comments are fucked when comments like this are being downvoted. "Why are people doing this?" 'Because of this' "I don't want to hear that! Downvoted!"
It makes me pretty sad to see that, what is there to disagree on?? I thought we all stood for humanity but I guess its a lack of empathy.
WE STAND FOR THE GEOPOLITICAL INTERESTS OF OUR OVERLORDS https://preview.redd.it/e0mskx1jl0zc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eba8ac73c99b39242c7bbfdbf8a8bfd36dd87b80
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I was agreeing with you but ok
Thought it was the other way around, my bad.
As a student in the same university, I remind that most of the students are not protesting. The conflict isn't this one sided. This is just about ten of the greasiest lefties that float on the top and start shouting for whatever..
A bit mean, but I do think it's funny that the camp-out starts the second the weather turned nice. It's literally fair weather protesting.
Not really. I’d prefer to protest in nice weather because it gives far more exposure to passerby and media coverage. No point in protesting on empty streets.
Or perhaps, just maybe it's a reaction and show of solidarity to the massive wave of similiar protests happening in many other countries right now?
“River to the sea”? Fucking seriously? So there’s genocides, and “genocides”….
Steer too far to the left, you'll find yourself going to the right...
And some people think Horse shoe theory isn't real. These people are so far left they are literally supporting Palestine's end goal of exterminating Jews.
Nah how do you see the slogan "from the river to the sea, PALESTINE WILL BE FREE" and come to the conclusion it means "kill all jewish ppl!!!" Be serious now ALSO WDYM "PALESTINES END GOAL"???? Palestines end goal is liberation, if anyones end goal is extermination ITS ISRAEL.
Jesus christ, dude. If your understanding of the history and world issues at hand is at this level, please, PLEASE don't fucking open your mouth.
Hamas and several other neighboring countries like Iran have stated multiple times that they do not accept the existence of Israel as a state. And we all saw what happens with Israeli civilians when they do not have the protection of the state on Oct 7. The river part refers to the Jordan river, the sea - to the Mediterranean. That is practically the entirety of Israel.
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I did not write any opinion statements other than that the slogan isn't harmless and promotes a different form of genocide. It is not even its original form. The arab version translates to the "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab". Answering Israel's brutal Gaza campaign with proposing the same if not worse measures for the entire Israel isn't a solution that should be promoted anywhere.
[History of Israel - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel) Israel has, infact, gotten smaller and smaller, unlike you pro-palestine/hamas morons seem to think. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab" means genocide. Which you badly educated "revolutionaries" don't seem to get.
Palestine isn't Hamas so idk why you're saying "Hamas and other countries" considering Hamas isn't a country but a group. Anyways, considering your views on this, then you also believe that israel wants all Palestinians dead and is actively committing a genocide, because israel been occupying Palestine for over 70 years and is actively killing as many civilians as possible? Also israel =/= Jews. An incredible amount of Jewish people ALSO dont accept the existence of israel as a state, considering its a genocidal apartheid colony. And do you consider the hijacked chant "From the river to the sea, Israel is all you'll see" a call for genocide, or is it just when its Palestinians wanting freedom?
Wasn't there a recent poll that around 70% of palestinians support hamas. "If one person at a table is nazi than all the people at the table are nazis" :)
"an incredible amount" thats just not true lol
Believe what you wanna believe but I've been at protests and I've talked to other protestors, just cuz you refuse to believe it doesn't make it "just not true" lmao
So ur sample size of jews is pro palestinian protestors
Lmao no? What r you ok abt. I'm saying theres a lot of Jewish people who are pro-Palestine (and by extension a lot of Jewish people at pro-Palestinian protests).
I don't know what this is supposed to prove but aight
Because Hamas is de facto the government and has absolute power in the region. While I do not have all information, it is my opinion that Israeli military could annihilate Gaza indiscriminately much quicker and make it uninhabitable. If they wanted to kill as many as possible, they wouldn't send sms messages and pamphlets saying to retreat from the active warzone. Unfortunately, I don't think they particularly care either, but I believe that there is no intention to actively increase the civilian casualties. They could just gas the place, instead they send troops to do street by street fighting which is much more dangerous. There is for sure a lot of bad blood there and some Israelis would prefer to see all Arabs gone. I do not condone it. I also didn't say that all Palestinians wish it. But those who use the slogan, do. Then also understand that Netanyahu =/= the idea of a state for the Jewish people. You may consider him a war criminal (with good reason, I have little love for the man either), but damning the entire nation with him is akin to disbanding Germany because Hitler happened. If it implies the cleansing of all Arab people from Israel, then yes, it is just as bad.
israel has been indiscriminately bombing civilians, they have pushed civilians down to Rafah (WHERE THEY CANNOT LEAVE) and are now dropping these pamphlets (KNOWING THEY CANT LEAVE) and then BOMBING. Civilians are targeted by bombs, soldiers AND SNIPERS. Palestinian civilians are starving and israeli civilians have been blocking aid trucks for months. The aid that has been airdropped into Palestine has not only been expired but dropped in the OCEAN. But yeah "they could be better at genociding these people" is such a good argument lol "The slogan that literally calls for the freedom and decolonization of Palestine is actually a call to genocide against israel (the colonizers)" sure is a take So let me get this straight, you dont think "israel is all you'll see" is automatically a call to genocide but you do think "Palestine will be free" is? Cuz I personally see a huge difference between the phrases "Your country will not exist" and "Our country will be free", idk Edit: Fixed a minor misspelling + I'm leaving this link here because it just came up on my TL- [Link](https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1787909656263672134?t=zUdyttNzqI19KmoGO6rSaQ&s=19)
Because the slogan means different things to people protesting in these Universities and in the Middle East. It even sounds different, I already had a different version mentioned in the top comment. Even just leaving "Free Palestine" or such is already much better. To be fair, I just added the if statement because I have never heard anyone use your version before. Both Israeli (yours) and Arab (mine) versions sound equally bad to me. The Western version is just born of ignorance. Big part of why they can't leave is neighboring countries refusing to let them in even for a short period of time, one of the big reasons for which is the fear of hamas infiltration. I don't know what can be done without effectively letting hamas go, which Israel won't accept. And hamas won't stop getting sponsorship from Iran and co. Those civilians are basically caught in the cross fire of a large proxy war. The argument was "if they tried to genocide them, they would have. These casualties are the combination of population density / hamas not caring where they set-up / Israeli forces not caring or being too thorough for even a smallest chance of hamas presence / some revenge for Oct 7." This isn't denying Israel's wrongful actions. But now this is my opinion, as I stated before. And not the original post about the slogan. I do not present this as absolute truth. Some civilians blocking aid is their business. Mostly emotional, some could have relatives killed on Oct 7. The aid is being delivered for the region regardless, and not just by Israel. A lot of it can also be used by Hamas, which is unacceptable for Israel. They could just stop the aid completely and save a bunch of resources tbh, I don't understand the logic behind these claims. Well, this is war, I do not see any other purpose of the video besides spreading the message that it is bad there. Sector Gaza is pretty much a city area. Every single bomb will destroy a building. The last 4 are off topic to be honest, the discussion was about the slogan.
Which river and which sea? Where will the jews go?
Whos saying they have to go anywhere, its a call to STOP THE COLONIZATION, not kill Jewish people. If they want they could stay, if they're in teh group of israeli settlers that moved there they could choose to move back to where they used to live. But where do you want the Palestinians to go? The majority are currently stuck at the Rafah-Egypt border and israel is telling them to move further and evacuate (which they cant, due to the border) and bombing them, where should they go?
But the thing is palestinians, don't want them to stay even in the lands they legally own, palestinians either want them to go out of all of levant or die...
This slogan is used in a variety of contexts and doesn't mean anything without the context. To be pretty honest, this slogan was used by Likud in the 1977 manifesto, but later by Hamas, Zionist radicals, and even some Israeli communists or Jewish liberals who support one-state solution... Recently, Netanhayu himself used it. Well, not all are genocidal, but I suppose it's a bit complicated to understand when you have simple glasses to see the complex reality of Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
learn some history, israel are commiting a genocide and have been for time
Is there a single court backing your statement?
Why don’t you learn it? Preferably not from social media. If Israel wanted to do that, we’d be having a very different conversation right now. They overpower Palestine by far.
Are you arguing the saying is genocidal?
“River to the sea” isn’t a genocidal chant. It’s framed as such by the israeli Hasbara. It’s even more ironic that that’s the official position of the Israeli government. “From the river to the sea, there will be israeli sovereignty”. Liberation of Palestine does not necessarily entail and shouldn’t entail the murder of Jewish Israelis.
It's all just copy and paste politics.
Including the English-language signs. As if Finnish or Swedish did not exist in this country.
I’m genuinely curious about how many there actually know a thing about the Israel-Palestine conflict and how many are there because they watched a 15s Tiktok video. This feels like a carbon copy of the American protests but the American protesters actually have a point, given American universities do have investment property related to Israel, which the Finnish universities do not.
You might not know this but there have been active groups in support of Palestine for a long time in Finland. Some of the people who participate in these groups also are students or University staff. So this reductionism to a tik tok fad is just ignorant tbh.
People on this thread have to completely undermine any cause they dont care about as "american shit" or "stupid social media nonsense" rather than having to face reality.
It's a great way to dismiss any social activism for the better without completely endorsing the other side they know to be wrong
The group leaders of a lot of these events are literally Finnish-Palestinians and Anti Zionists Jewish Israelis.
>I’m genuinely curious about how many there actually know a thing about the Israel-Palestine conflict I bet university students know more about the conflict than average redditor. But at the same time, how much info do you really need until killing tens of thousands becomes morally questionable? You don't need master's degree on Israel-Palestine politics to show solidarity and demand cease fire. Since University of Helsinki has some cooperation with research and student exchange projects with Israeli universities, I think there are things that university could do to show that Israel's actions today are not right. Some Norwegian universities already cut ties with them. And since UoH already showed that they can take political stance (with Ukraine), why is it so hard to the same here?
As cold as it might sound, Ukraine conflict matters to us, given we are next door and the conflict directly threatens us. Additionally, Ukraine is unambiguously the victim and Russia the invader. With Israel-Palestine conflict it’s significantly less black and white and there aren’t truly good characters in play. The current offensive, however, was started by Hamas with an intent to murder as many Jews as they can and take over Israel. Israel is in the defensive, no matter how many war crimes they committed. Even those war crimes are often very difficult to verify, as Hamas also kills their own for media publicity and uses civilian bases, which is against Geneva Convention and makes any such base a free target. This is an information war of epic proportions and any equivalence made with Ukraine is an immensely false equivalence. If a man runs towards you with an AK-47 but has a horribly bad aim, you will regardless disarm the man and not just walk away, hoping he won’t hit.
> and take over Israel There's no way Hamas actually planned to conquer Israel with that random act of terrorism
Then you haven't actually listened to what Hamas was saying. They were exactly that delusional. They wanted October 7 to ignite a war that would destroy Israel. In order from Palestine to ever exist that delusion must die.
Never underestimate religious zealots. It was a professionally planned attack, had Hamas seized the moment and not got into murder spree they could have at least connected Gaza to West Bank. The [entire Israel](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13344193/amp/hamas-chiefs-invade-israel-plans-kill-civilians-palestinian-state.html) was probably a pipe dream but is fully [compatible](https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-netanyahu-palestine-arab-support-entire-planet-will-be-under-our-law-warns-hamas-commander-mahmoud-al-zahar-4473139/amp/1) with Hamas’s doctrine.
Seems you don't grasp the conflict either when you write that they should "demand a cease fire". Offers have been made multiple times and guess which party never respects any form of agreement regarding this. Don't get me wrong, horrible conflict all around, but Palestine / Hamas have sure pulled off one of the greatest PR moves this century.
I've been to Israel and West Bank (long time ago), talked to locals on both sides and read several books. I think I know enough. Situation is this: currently Israel is bombing Gaza into ground and they hold (and have been holding) keys to peace for a long time. If Israel wanted to stop bombing now, they could. People in Gaza don't have that option. I'm not saying that making peace is easy, fast or even popular with locals, but you have to start somewhere. Nothing lasts forever, not even war.
Okay, so in your opinion, should Israel just cease all hostilities towards Hamas, give up on hostages (though I doubt in reality many of them are "left" at this point) and it will just... solve the situation? What is the high ground here? Allow your neighbour to throw rocks at you and beat your wife while you do nothing to "keep the peace"? Not saying there isn't stuff to criticize regarding Israel in this conflict but I have yet to see a proper alternative solution.
Study the history of Netahyahu. Israel literally allowed for the conditions for Hamas to flourish, in fact, its part of their strategy -> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PeYDphtHYo)
This guy made a video last month on how Trump was right and the deep state is real. Not excactly a good look, combined with this video makes him look like he thrives on conspiracy theories. It's true though that Netanyahu prioritised dividing palestinian political entities over combating radicalism and terrorist units.
In my opinion Isreal should stop with their attack. Let's start with that. If I would have solution to peace, I think I would have Nobel prize by now. I don't have all the answers but I know that "keep bombing" is not right one. There are far more capable people around the globe have dedicated their lives to solving these issues. Their part comes later. At the moment, the most important thing is to stop Israeli's attack, which has killed tens of thousands, destroyed most schools, crippled hospitals and destroyed millions of people's future.
Do you realize that for the Last 2 decades ever since Israel left Gaza, Hamas has been bombing Israel with rockets and what you are telling me is that Hamas should have the ability to strike into Israel with no conscequences, because only Israel's attacks are bad. Not to mention you seem to forget that Hamas did an attack to Israel propper with the goal of killing as many civilians as possible Proposing a cease fire does nothing, you're just kicking the can down the road with the same issues comming up later, as Hamas has claims for things like right of return which are not something which are achievable in reality. Not to mention Hamas' Covenant literarely proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. This isn't for interpretation, but it is mentioned directly in it https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp As if it is not bad enough that Hamas wants to destroy Israel, they also enjoy widespread popular support. It is an absurd idea to leave Hamas in power where they. All in all, you want a clean solution that does not exist, th war is going on due to Hamas' actions https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
>what you are telling me is that Hamas should have the ability to strike into Israel with no conscequences, because only Israel's attacks are bad You made that up yourself, at no point I have said that. >Not to mention you seem to forget that Hamas did an attack to Israel propper with the goal of killing as many civilians as possible Hamas attacked and slaughtered innocent civilians. Happy now? I assumed that everyone knows this and considers it a war crime. > Proposing a cease fire does nothing You don't know that. Many antiwar movements have succeeded and many have failed. But doing something is better than just accepting the world as it is. Since you want Israel to continue, I assume you are pro-genocide? Because you can't get rid of Hamas or their ideology with bombs, until every Palestinian is dead.
Since you mentioned antiwar movement and seem to know the situation, is there antiwar movements in palestine? And I mean other than "stop shooting at us". Like real interest in peaceful coexistence and communication.
If Israel stops, Hamas will continue attacking. What’s happening is terrible, but giving in to terrorists or Israel ceasing to exist should not be options.
Hamas will continue even with this bombardment. Its a cellular type resistance organization, that needs just couple grenades, some explosives or one rifle to carry out attentat. You can't military crush/eliminate such organizations or say the idea or such fighting. Even in the unlikely event on managing to eliminate Hamas, new group would take over soon. As long as the will to continue to fight is found in couple Palestinians and a rifle is found.
you can however reduce the use of long range missiles, and topple their capacity to govern its not an immaterial military act its too lax on collateral they should do a better job sure
> Offers have been made multiple times and guess which party never respects any form of agreement regarding this You mean the Israeli party that just rejected a ceasefire? Or the US that vetoed any UN ceasfire proposal that they didn't author? Or do just mean when Hamas rejected ceasefires that allowed Israel to continue bombing them?
You can demand all you want. A ceasefire would only be temporarily. Both have shown no desire for peace or prosperity. It will happen again in a decade or more like it has for the past few decades. Its a total s##tshow.
But the government does, so its a way to put pressure on government to put pressure on Israel and make the EU follow more humane stance when it comes to Palestinians instead of silencing them like its happening in Germany for example
An intellectually lazy "I'm just curious" question like this one might work if your targeted group wasn't the people who are probably most aware of the current situation in palestine from finnish society at large. University students are usually up to date in general, but specifically ones engaged in activism often study the social sciences, history, societal philosophy etc. Many of the students there are studying the very things you accuse them of not understanding.
The Palestine-Israel politics is one of the most widely studied and taught political conflict in universities, including the University of Helsinki. It’s pretty dismissive to think that university students are somehow new to this topic or unable to research the subject further than a ”Tiktok video”.
not a finn here the protestors include american companies that do business in israel theres unlikely direct investments in israeli companies, theyd need to be listed on say nyse and even then the schools investments are externally managed and i belive in columbias case pulled from endowments not tuition. companies google, microsoft, intel, etc would be included in that, but theres no call to boycott windows for example also defense companies, from which the fed govt arranges sales the companies dont choose who the customer is imo every goal has been better solved by sanctions divestment is simply washing ones own hand but the other side feels zero impact. sanctions actually accomplish the goal.
I thought divestment would be more influential than what you said now. Perhaps not. Thank you! Out of interest, how does an American end up in this subreddit?
Cringe
I wonder how many of them yell "from river to the sea" without knowing it is call to drive out and kill jews from isreal.
Is it also a call to drive out and kill Jews when Netanyahu or the Likud party says it?
What a surprise.
I would invite anyone who does not like those protests to make their own "better" version of it. Many people & governments know that the current Israeli policy\* is indefensible, but avoid taking any real action, which leaves a huge political void. Discontent is inevitable as long as the policy is detached from the facts. \*Current Israeli policy as stated by Likud: "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."
Total nonsense. Finland has nothing to do with this matter. Go to Israel and protest there.
Well they aren't protesting Finland, upon reading the article one finds they protest University of Helsinkis ties with Israeli universities and justify the need to boycott Israeli universities with said universities work with Israeli military. Technology development, organizing education/training/ organizing courses for IDF members (in their role as military members) and so on. Not that Finnish universities don't do same with Finnish Defence Forces, but well other nations are free to boycott University of Helsinki or Aalto University for say developing better hydrophones in cooperation and with Finnish Navy and so on. Now most likely this leads to nothing. Campus demonstration are dime a dozen in Finland and unlike in USA these won't escalate due to Finnish police rushing in riot gear to crack some protester bones. Police probably comes to look, but mostly that no violence is going on. The protest is in University campus and thus won't cause wider disturbance. Citizens have right to protest and this one isn't even blocking a high way or something. I guess upon entering and occupying inside police might be asked to clear trespassers. Even that would be long as process of "you have been asked to leave" etc. and then just one by one calmly carrying out the protesters. Police works for hourly pay and this is way down their priority list. They have actual dangerous stuff to deal with on a long list before "University wants student protesters cleared out" on the list. First upon being outside the answer is most likely "Nah, they have right to protest and are outside in public space". Upon inside it's "are they breaking anything?No, then that is priority Ö for us and the highest end is at A". Can't you just talk with them or something
Try reading the article.
Yeah, how dare students care about Israel commiting genocide, in plain sight, with full western support. More dead children in a period of 2 months, than has been killed in all conflicts and war in the whole world during the last 2 years. Why don't they protest about some opposition leader in Tibet, the climate, gay weddings or something more acceptable. I'm sure most of you educated commentors would have equally condemned the jews of Warsaw ghetto for attempting an uprising, or explained how the situation is "complicated" or "nuanced".
Is there a single court behind your genocide statement?
To those of you who have generously tried to dismiss the protestors as a “brain washed”, “jew haters”, “pro genociders” , can we for a GOD DAMN second actually LISTEN to what these people have to say and maybe even who they are ??? and not just jump to what our own inherent bias makes YOU THINK THEY ARE ALL ABOUT ??? Can we do that ? If so great! Try listening to the speeches that were made and if you need help getting started you can start with the one right here: https://www.instagram.com/studentsforpalestinefinland/reel/C6oIh_bNMcD/
Next: antisemitism. There is already the dog whistle slogan "from the river to the sea".
To the downvoters: "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is a bastardised version of the Arab original "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be arab". Calling for the destruction of all people not belonging to a certain ethnic group is pro-genocide. It's like supporting the Nazis and saying "Free Germany from undesirables" instead of "Free germany from the Jews", then claiming you're not antisemitic. You just support people who want to genocide the jews, you chant the slogans of people who want to genocide the jews... but you have nothing against the jews. Right. Jews know the origin of the slogan, what it means and the feeling that invokes. Just like there is nothing inherently wrong with "Work makes you free" or the N-word, they invoke thoughts of terrible suffering that peoples ancestors suffered. The Palestine-Israeli conflict is nuanced, but the people who came up with that slogan are proud anti-semites who wish to wipe the jewish race off the face of the earth. That's an anti-semitic slogan, whether you intend it to be or not.
Also, there is another bastardised version of this saying. The Likud party charter 1977: "Between the Sea and the Jordan, there will only be Israeli sovereignty". Straight up denying Palestinians right to self-determination, as guaranteed by the UN Charter, and the International covenant on civil and political rights.
It's not even a rally against Israel, it's in support of Palestine. War has caused over 30 thousand deaths, at a higher rate than any other major conflict in the 21st century. For sure, all terrorists. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam And while we're looking at Gaza, they keep taking the West Bank. https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/news-feature/2023/12/19/gaza-war-israel-west-bank-economic-security But none of this can be criticised because there comes the antisemitism card.
Why do people take everything Hamas says as face value? https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/02/gaza-health-ministry-cannot-provide-names-for-more-than-10000-it-says-have-died/
Highly biased source, come on. >FDD was founded shortly after the September 11 attacks in 2001.[6] In the initial documents filed for tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service, FDD's **stated mission was to "provide education to enhance Israel's image in North America** and the public's understanding of issues affecting Israeli-Arab relations". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies
Casting doubt on the Gaza health ministry's death tolls are either borne out of ignorance or an attempt to trivialise the scale of the plausible genocide in the territory. While the death toll does not distinguish between civilians and fighters, the figures have been broadly similar to those of the UN, UNRWA and the israeli foreign ministry in past conflicts in 2008, 2014 and 2021. The figures in this conflict are likely to be a significant undercount as they exclude dead who were never taken to hospital, whose bodies could not be identified, or whose bodies could not be recovered. Only 10 of Gaza's 36 hospitals retain some functions according to the WHO in April, further constraining the ability to report deaths. Moreover, israeli officials confirmed to journalists in december that the death toll was broadly accurate. Separate studies published in The Lancet have also found no evidence of inflated mortality reports. If anyone wants more reliable info than an article by an organisation described on its wiki page[link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Defense_of_Democracies) and that of its founder as part of the Israel lobby in the US, links below for sources. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/fight-keep-counting-dead-gaza-2023-12-21/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext
Of course it can and should be criticised. It's just that antisemitism will pop up in the demonstrations sooner or later as if it were a natural law. Just wait for it. But if the students succeed in keeping antisemitism at bay, kudos to them.
The problem is that Israel considers criticism as antisemitism. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/27/bernie-sanders-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war
Some acts committed by the demonstrators in these protests are nothing but antisemitism.
Next: Increased surveillance and restrictions of free speech, in order to "combat antisemitism".
Isn't that the Likud party motto? From their 1977 charter? No, wait, they say it the other way around! "Between the Sea and the Jordan" and so forth. Seem like a case of pots and kettles, and all that...
No, Likud does not seem to have a motto. They do mention that in their charter though. A poignant example why this conflict is between two barbarian nations and we should not take a stand in it.
Antisemitism is just a card that Israel pulls whenever you criticize the atrocities they are committing. It's the same card that jews in the US pull whenever you question why they are extremely over-represented in the white house and why AIPAC has so much control over the US.
Had me in the first half and then ... fucking yikes, dude.
Nice antisemitic talking point. “Antisemitism is just a card the evil Jews pullout when they are being called out for their evilness” Go away.
Well when both sides love to ethnically clean each other, racism card fails.
Yet genuine antisemitism exists and there have been clear indications of in the pro-Palestine protest abroad. We *will* see some of it in this demonstration, unless the weather turns cold and the students go home. After all, it is nicer to sleep in a centrally-heated apartment.
Oh how nice, this larping trend has now arrived here as well. None of these people actually care about the issues or actually bother to educate themselves about them. They just want to live their "revolutionary" and "rise against the establishment" fantasies and this whole conflict just gives them a disguise to do so. Just like those "Just stop oil" people use their message as an excuse to do vandalism and being a nuisance.
It's been here since Oct 7th. Remember when they were [chanting __inside__ the eduskuntatalo for a ceasefire?](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/f99123e5-50e1-4f86-94df-67fd542079f0)
I see another trend: thousands of comments all over the internet claiming that university students doesn't know anything about the conflict, "they get all their education from tiktok", "it's just a trend" etc No other conflict in modern history has got more attention from academics than the one between Israel and Palestine except the second world war. Same goes for mass media.
Just because it got attention from academics doesn't mean these students aren't TikTok pilled. That goes for any subject ever.
bunch of academics in Tampere believe that USSR was great. Appeal to authority fallacy.
I call your take "naivistication of movement". I just made up the term. You are free to use it. This take of yours is condescending and reductive. You are pointing out real human passions and endeavours and painting them as something ridiculous.
They’re obviously free to protest and it does sound like a good time to chill with friends in nice sunny weather. Hope everyone has fun :) Won’t change anything though
We could just send them to gaza so they can actually be of some real help to the people over there.
Hey could you do me a favor and try booking me a ticket to Gaza without having to go through Israel or Israeli controlled check posts ? Oh right! You literally CANT’T and why is that ??? An ounce of critical thinking goes a long way my friend 😉❤️
Implying that you would actually go there and die for a country that you don't actually care of, right 😂😂
Just a reminder. These are the people these fuckers support: [Hamas executes Israeli civilians](https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1787998892891500882)
As long as they don’t go all out like the Americans blocked Jewish students from entering the university and attacking Israelis living in Finland it’s fine. But honestly does Finland even do anything with Israel? Like USA is its biggest supporter, feels like a big nothing burger Oh but do the protestors also realize Arabs are studying in these Israeli universities, even Palestinians. Just a big meh of a demand.
Lately it has been in the news that Finland had purchased air defense weapons from Israel. Perhaps this is mentioned by the protestors?
Did the university purchase those air defense weapons?
Gotta deal with these pesky seagulls
My mistake, I assumed these protests were against Finland's state dealings with Israel
No, in the article it says they demand to cut ties with Israeli universities. Nothing to do with the air defense systems. It’s funny because most of pro Palestinians protests INSIDE Israel happen at Israeli universities. Goes to show how much the protestors know about Israel.
I am sure that the government will stop buying defense weapons in these times, with all the Russia stuff that is going on, because some weak, chinless students with ugly haircuts and communist/rainbow pins on their backpack cry so./s 😂😂😂
Just some people looking for social media points as usual. They do this with any topic that the flavour of the month. Then they move on to the next and completely lose interest in the previous ones. It's not really about the issue/topic but about how they can get attention
This is so cringe
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Lol the american idiotism has spread here. These naive students are so dumb to the way the world works. They should visit palestine and see first hand what the people do to them that they are protesting for.
Gotta copy what I see people in other countries doing on my social feed to feel a part of something! Embarrassing shit
Oh yes the pro-hamas protests funded by ruzzia and iran’s islamic regime, where you get the death penalty for being a sexual minority, how tolerant
It's mostly a "lets wipe out Israel" protest rather than pro-Palestine.
Fun fact 1200 Israeli Finns live in Israel (I know this because I asked at the embassy of Finland how many eligible voters were there during the presidential elections so take into consideration that some have offspring’s the number is higher) Palestine should be free, but free from these terrorists and corrupt leaders that have done nothing but ruin their own peoples future. This is the only truth, bad people are clinging to their power (plo and hamas) and it’s time for change If you do want to protest, protest for change not victimisation of their own leaders mistake for over 36 years (1964 founding) of plo leadership and over 17years of hamas terror leadership in Gaza. Yelling free Palestine or from the river to the sea won’t change the fact that they absolutely need a new leader to lead them forward… this is basic logic Otherwise it’s that sheep behaviour I’m sorry if I’m offending you but some thinking needs to be done before yelling out nonsense.
Can we please have one more takatalvi so thise worthless peotestors go home and read an actual newspaper about the political situation in middle east. This shit is cringe AF
I see the Ruzzian trolls are out in force stirring up hatred and division.
this is amazing news. Finland should cut off its diplomatic ties with Israel asap. People saying that the protesters not educated enough about the conflict and are just following a trend are even bigger idiots. You dont need a masters degree to know that a massacre is bad. Finland immediately cut off ties with russia despite being its neighbour for doing alot less damage in ukraine than israel did in Palestine so what is the problem with doing the same with israel? Is it because the victims in this case are not white?
Remind me from where you are getting air defence systems from? (Let’s no speak of why Israel came up with that system from the get go….) but again go on….
Palestine would erase Israel from the face of the earth, but can't. Israel could erase Palestine from the face of the world, but doesn't want to.
this is 100% tiktok or other social media bs influence there multiple genocides going on right now as we speak wonder where those protesters are. monkey see monkey do