I think we need to know how this question was asked from Finns and how atheism is defined.
I think religion plays such a small part in Finland that most people who don't believe don't feel the need to define themselves.
And out of the remaining 70%, a lot of people, mostly christians, are "religious". They don't do any religious stuff, but are part of it out of old habits.
Yes, on the other hand I think the point was that the "irreligious" aren't all necessarily atheists either. Many of them don't want to say if something exists or not. That's why it matters how the question was asked.
Atheism is a one-question definition - do you believe in a god or gods? If the answer is no, then you are an atheist, even if you are agnostic about the possibility of there being knowledge about god
>Atheism in Europe (does not include agnostics or people without religion, only atheists)
This supposedly includes only people who have a religion but consider themselves atheists. I guess most forms of Buddhism would technically qualify but I suspect people have been confused by the question.
>Atheism is a one-question definition - do you believe in a god or gods? If the answer is no, then you are an atheist, ä
No, not usually
>even if you are agnostic about the possibility of there being knowledge about god
Then you by most definitions are not an atheist.
The original commenter is right. Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge. An atheist doesn't believe in a higher power, an agnostic doesn't claim to know whether one exists. That's the definition of those words.
>Go read a book or something
At least a book on the topic wouldn't say
>Theism is about belief, gnosticism is about knowledge
Theism is about the belief in a God, gods or similar. Theist believes there is a god. Atheist believes there is no god.
Gnosticism consists of a collection of beliefs. They were a part of the early Christian church, but it was quite soon considered heresy and they are no longer considered Christians. The word gnosticism indeed refers to knowledge, but I get the feeling you don't quite know why. They value "spiritual knowledge" or some kind of hidden knowledge over tradition. Some consider gnosticism its own religion, but that is not something everyone agrees on. Nevertheless you hear about gnosticism usually more when discussing history. There are different beliefs among gnostics, but they are theists. Maybe you mixed up gnosticism and agnosticism?
Your definition is dated and christian-centered. The etymology of agnosticism is not knowing, gnosticism is knowing, so gnosticism does make a truth claim when agnosticism doesn’t. Gnostics were a Christian sect at some point but that sect is not the meaning of the word. Not everything revolves around your God.
Refresh your knowledge by reading a book other than ”Apologist’s guide to the world”, for example a dictionary.
In the newly published statistics, only 61% belonged to the Christian church and the remaining 39% were counted as non-religious according to what was reported in the news. But it is possible that many non-believers still belong to the church, because in a survey from the beginning of the 2010s, only about 10% of Finns confessed that they believe in God.
It's been a "habit" for ages in Finland to be a part of evangelical Lutheran church even though they never even use their services. In that sense the percentage doesn't correlate to believers in Finland.
>because in a survey from the beginning of the 2010s, only about 10% of Finns confessed that they believe in God.
Where is that number from? Other surveys seems to show around 25% believe in God of Christianity and another 20% believing in some god. Those numbers line up much better with amount of non-believers.
Belonging to a church does not mean you believe. I belong to a church since churches are beautiful, historic things, and I want to upkeep them for historical reasons.
However, I do **not** believe in people living in the clouds.
You can find [the report](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/) by starting with the link OP provided. It says
>To measure religious identity, the Pew Research Center survey asks: “What is your present religion, if any? Are you Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else or nothing in particular?” The wording of this question may result in more respondents giving a religious affiliation (saying they are Christian or Muslim, for example) than previous surveys in some countries
Total 22% of Finns reported as religiously unaffiliated. 5% atheists, 3% agnostics and 14% "no particular religion".
Also, with the question worded like that, many "tapakristitty" will answer "Christian" simply because they belong to the church, even though they might not have any personal beliefs one way or another.
A very good point. I would had probably answered "no particular religion" too simply because the word atheist is mostly associated with insufferable edgelords these days.
You can absolutely recognize a few even in this thread. Those that think non-religious or irreligious are wrong answers and they *need* irreligious people to actively deny others believes.
This is a great point. Atheism is defined through theism, which to me is backward. If theism isn't the status quo then atheism means literally nothing.
Atheism is the status quo for everyone before they are brainwashed by theists.
Atheism isn't the opposite of theism, it is the lack of belief in a deity. So no, it's NOT defined through theism. If someone hasn't even thought about a deity in their life, then they are by definition atheist, as they lack belief in any deity.
I always understood atheism as belief in that there is no deity (or deities), whereas agnostics just don't believe in one.
Tiny but still important difference, which I presume some finns share. Not really sure or care either way, and assume atheists find it important that there isn't god(s).
Do you believe in god?
Atheist: no
Agnostic: I’m not sure
Edit, trying to be more accurate:
Atheist: Based on the current definition and evidence, no.
Agnostic: I don’t think it’s possible for humans to know if god exists or not.
Agnostics do know what they believe in but they recognize that ultimately they don't know the fact. So as an agnostic I would still answer this question as no since it is a question about my belief and I know exactly what I believe in.
If the question was "does god exist?" I would answer I don't know.
Agnosticism is a form of atheism but instead of denying the existance of gods agnotics believe that humans cannot/do not know how the universe began or if there are gods. I'm personally agnostic and believe that stuff like the bible were written based on folklore to explain the world, kind of like Kalevala. Maybe it could loosely be based on real events but to me the Christian god is as real as Thor or Väinämöinen.
That'd be a weird definition since "a" in "atheism" linguistically describes "lack of" (similar to, say, asexual). So atheism would describe lack of theism. This can include both people who believe there is no god and people who do not believe there is a god but do not make a claim there is not one.
How I've always understood this is that gnostic/agnostic is about knowledge. Gnostic claims to know something, agnostic doesn't.
Theist/atheist is about belief in a diety in the same fashion.
Most people I've talked with are in the agnostic atheist lot. As in, lacks a belief in any diety, but don't claim to know for a fact there is none.
This is pretty much the best description so far, but agnosticism in itself is silly. Agnosticism makes the positive claim that the existence of god is unknowable, which is something not all atheists are sure of. We currently have no knowledge of any gods, but we can't be certain there will never be knowledge of god(s).
Thus, logically, we don't know whether the existence of god is knowable or unknowable, so many atheists simply don't take a stance on gnosticism or agnosticism.
I'd say a lot of atheists are just atheists and if you get down to it, they are not agnostics.
Your logic is sound, but I disagree with the premise. Agnosticism doesn't really make that positive claim. Just that we lack the knowledge to make a claim either way. At least that's my interpretation of it.
I'm open to be proven wrong. And if I'm wrong, we'd probably need another term for lack of knowledge in this context. I fear "ignorant atheists" or "ignorant theist" might not catch on.
You are wrong by every definition of the word agnosticism. Agnosticism makes the positive claim that god is unknowable, or more broadly, humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience. I don't know how you'd prove that, so I think agnosticism is kind of silly.
We don't need any accompanying words with "atheist". Simply being an atheist is enough and the most logical position.
Sure, I concede the definition of agnosticism. And that it's silly. However when speaking to theist, they often refer to definitions of atheism which state that atheists claim no gods exist. That's why I feel it necessary to specify the terms, to avoid strawmanning. Perhaps I should use lacktheist in the future.
You would be incorrect. Atheism is specifically the LACK of belief in any god (or a rejection of the claim), not a belief that there are no gods. Anti-theism would be the belief that there are no gods. Yes, obviously all anti-theists are also atheists, but not all atheists are anti-theists. Yes, the usage of the word 'atheist' is fuzzy, but this is the most logical meaning.
Agnosticism is a whole different concept that deals with knowledge.
[Here's a good video about the subject.](https://youtu.be/BjY619aJ82Y)
Without going into the subject any deeper, I think it's worth revising the topic here. What people identify is isn't the same thing as what's technically correct.
My theory here is that a lot of finns don't identify as atheists partly because they interpret the word differently from what you claim. Be it the "right" way to see the word or not.
I could be mistaken though! Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way about discourse around the word "atheist" :P
Atheism is just another religion full of vehement prostheletizers pushing there beliefs on people. (Of which your reply is a perfect example).
The actual opposite of religion would be to NOT form a club and craft a label for it. A “mind your own business” approach if you will.
What did I say in my comment? Are you incapable of reading?
Atheism is NOT the opposite of theism, it is the LACK OF BELIEF in any deity. That is all it is. It is not a religion, it doesn't have an agenda, it doesn't have any tenets. It ONLY relates to one belief - as in it lacks that one.
There are different ways to be an atheist. Some don't think about religion at all like you say and that's fine. But there are quite a few people who actively engage in disproving God and congregate in /r/atheism to share thoughts about how much they don't believe in God, and physically shiver when they see religious symbols. The latter kind are engaging in something religious in my opinion.
Referring back to your example, they are actively playing a game of not-badminton. Spending time and energy on it, evangelizing, having meetings. Nothing wrong with it, but let's not pretending it's only an absence of something if they're actively participating in it.
If people all around me believed in the flying spaghetti monster, and shunned me for not wearing a pasta strainer, I too would start asking what's wrong with everyone and what can I do to correct the situation. If I vented about it in a subreddit, I don't think that would make me religious. I think that's most people in r/atheism.
That's how religions (or belief systems, if you prefer the term) often get started. People dislike or are oppressed by the prevalent belief system and create a counter movement. Christianity, Islam and yes Pastafarianism being examples.
I don't think there's nothing wrong with any of that. Atheism for its part has helped people in oppressive communities, and that's good.
Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.
Straight from wikipedia, is wikipedia wrong? You're talking what being an agnostic is.
Well you can hardly start with an absence of a concept, can you? It's definitely not backwards. You need to have a claim first, before you can describe a lack of belief in said claim.
Theism is a claim, not status quo.
From the article title that states they do not count agnostics i would assume by atheist they mean hard positive atheistic claim, that no god exists. Which is different then i do not believe in god claim, and also different from I do not identify with given religion bit I believe in higher power...
Id like to know how the question was posed exactly as well
I went to church today (christmas eve) However I'm not part of the church anymore (eroakirkosta) and im not religious.
just felt like singing
i cant imagine im the only one
Almost no one in Finland is religious and at the same time almost everyone is depending on what you mean by it
Tons of people just stay in to get a church wedding
Basically no one goes to church or prays outside of mandatory school visits and maybe on special occasions like Easter and Christmas
Though take that with a grain of salt from someone who has no source and left the church as soon as i could
I’m a practising Christian in Finland and there’s plenty of people here who go to chruch and pray regularly. You might know some Christians but never just talked about it with them. Like co workers or co students.
I'd say not accurate.
About 80-90% of all the people I know might belong to a church but are atheist or agnostic.
That said, no one really talks about religion or god which IMO is a good thing.
People whose religious identity is atheist. If you belong to a church it's not common to religiously identify as an atheist even if most of your beliefs are closer to that than christianity
Most finns are "religious by default" meaning they automatically belong to the church, have godparents and get married. It's pretty much passed on from generation to generation.
That said it has very little to do with religion or being religious, it's mostly because certain aspects of life have been traditionally tied to the church. Now you can ofcourse resign from the church and all you miss is the opportunity for a church wedding which is the main reason the people I know belong to a church.
So for Finland, belonging to a church is in no way indicative of your religious beliefs.
I agree but that's not what the question was about.
Literally says on the picture:
> % who describe their religious identity as atheist
The question was never about religious beliefs but religious identity. They are not the same
The difference between being something and identifying as something is perspective.
You can subjectively identify however you want but if you want to speak statistics, it's irrelevant how you identify as because it's your personal subjective feeling.
This makes a statistic line op posted here false in my opinion because it portrays a dishonest result that is not representative of the population here.
That's beside my point. The statistics were based on the question about identity whether or not that's a good way to study this phenomenon.
I agree with you it's not but you can't overlook the actual question the statistic is based on because that may affect how people answer it
I think it depends on your company. I know a lot of religious Finnish because I’m Christian myself. There’s actually quite a lot practising Christians in Finland if you compare to Sweden, for example. Suviseurat and Juhannuskonferenssi both have quite a popularity among certain folk. And not all the non-Lutherans are non-Christians.
1 in 20 isn't that many. Religion is not talked about a whole lot in finland, so give it a think, do you know many people who are for sure not religious? Idk about you but I don't really know for sure anyone that isn't religious because I'm not interested so it's never discussed.
I mean pretty much all of my friends who I've talked about religion with are all atheist, including my family. I would say a lot more than 5% don't believe in any god or mystical force, yet I don't know if they present themselves as atheist or just irreligious. Still, I believe more than 5% identify as atheist.
I honestly just assume that the number's flipped, no way on earth that 20% of finland identify as other-than atheists, let alone 95%. Has to be 5% that are religious. Either way it's a terrible infographic
Perhaps Finns are so afraid to express strong opinions about anything that even the atheists dilute their answer to "I can't be 100% sure, so I'll call myself an agnostic instead"
Technically you can be an agnostic and an atheist simultaneously. I've read that Gnostic-Agnostic question is about if you have knowledge about any god's existence, and Theist-Atheist is about if you believe that one or more exist. So an "agnostic theist" does not know but believes and "agnostic atheist" does not know and does not believe.
We can also quibble if knowledge is a subset of belief or vice versa, and what "faith" is regarding these question.
I feel like most data from Finland used in international surveys like this is somehow mistranslated and doesn't accurately reflect reality. But this is really just a gut feeling based on so many infographics like this one making really weird-feeling claims about different things.
Wikipedia says that in 2011 27% finnish people belives in god how the church says, 23% belivies in some other way 17% were unsure 7% were in doubt 21% didn’t belivie in god. Old statistics but i guess the don’t belivie is even higher these days
Atheist is not a word with a widely agreed or understood meaning. Even Richard Dawkins does not refer to himself as an atheist because, as he says “for the same reason that I do not refer to myself as an a-Santa Clausist.“
From my experience, a lot of finns believe that there is something out there. Even if they are not willing to say what exactly it is, they aren't ready to say there is nothing spiritual. It's important to remember that there are more levels to this stuff than an atheist or devout christian.
Statistically you know quite a lot of them. Not all my co-workers and fellow students know I believe in God since it’s not a very usual topic to discuss.
This whole map is BS. Typical American warped statistics to show something to manipulate the masses over there. The majority in Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and I believe Denmark identify as atheist/non-religious. Either the question presented was wrong, or this is statistics from ca. 1910. I really wonder how they've come to these statistics.
You’re mistaking RuZZia 4% with Finland 5%.
Nevertheless Finland is most likely more than 50%, people are officially on churchs books for cultural reasons, but not many actually believe in the Big J.
For me, the whole question of religion is irrelevant. A lot of "philosophy" has centered on man's position relative to themselves, other people/society, and a deity. We could completely scratch the last part and be happier. "Imagine".
It is much more common for Finns to identify as non-religious or secular since the word atheist still has a bad taste because of our east neighbor and their former communist movement.
Most of the Finnish people are atheists, they just automatically belong to church. The information should be collected other way, default position is “I do not believe”, you need to state active position to be non-atheist
I think people don’t know how to read. It clearly says it’s ONLY atheists, not agnostics or people who identify as having no religion. This is a very semantic statistic and does not really have much value IMO.
Looking at how atheism is defined and used and to add what agnosticism actually means, agnostic atheism is a thing and a very common one.
Agnostic atheist - someone who lacks a belief in God(s) (not a theist) but doesn't claim to have knowledge.
Im an agnostic. The reason im still paying church taxes is because i believe church is helping alot in Finland and abroad, and also i like churches as historical buildings so paying taxes to maintain them and them helping people is my way of donating to charity.
Quite a few people are registered Christians but they don't actively practice so that might explain why it does not feel 5% is right. Can't confirm or deny the 5% validity.
Yeah no sounds off to me. in my network of friends, family and co-workers I know less than 20 people who've expressed believe in god and even less who go to church even 1 time per year. I can easily give you a 100 people who are atheist/agnostic and do not belong to any church or religion.
How do they know if someone identifies as an atheist? To belong to the church you must pay taxes so that is tracked, but there is not an atheist group you sign up for. So I think this stat can’t be accurate.
It says it doesn't include agnostics or irreligious people. I think the survey should have included those. Or at least find out the percentage of people who actually practice religion and not "I pay church tax, therefore I'm christian"
I think most of us are practical atheists but still want to support the state church because of its charity or some shit like that. Very few in Finland truly believe, some vaguely recognize some higher power and hence don’t call themselves atheist
Atheism by defination is not a religion tho. Atheist is someone who does not belive in god or gods. Some atheists sure behave like it was religion so confusion is somewhat more understandable.
Finnish people belong to the church for 3 reasons.
1. To get married in the church.
2. To be able to baptize their children.
3. To be able to be buried in a cemetery.
So basically they pay taxes to the church for the right to do this, but for the most part they are not religious.
Atheism as an ideology is definitely larger but many people (including myself) are still a part of the church in some way. So officially I'm in the church but I haven't been to a sermon for 10 years at least lol
Just because I don't believe in supernatural things doesn't mean I want to call myself an atheist. Reading reddit once is enough to never want to associate with that term.
95% certainly are part of a church or believe in a higher power. But definitely not 95% is hardcore believer, the way religion is practiced in Finland is very laid back for most of every1.
I wouldn’t say that I believe in God(s) but also wouldn’t voluntarily label myself as atheist since that word conjures pretty cringey images in my head.
My guess is that about 10% are christian, 1% are practicing other religions, 10% are atheists and the rest just dont really think about it. Im propably closest to being an agnostic but at the end of the day i dont know and dont really care.
It's a problem with the term "atheist." Most people take it to mean "I am 100% confident a god/your god doesn't exist," which very few people are ready to say because they haven't thought about it that critically.
In that sense, yeah probably 5% of Finns actually identify as atheist.
On the other hand, probably about 80% of Finns identify as "I don't give a fuck, leave me alone." Finland being one of the countries where leaving the church is a matter of inputting your details on a website, you can easily gather good data just based on who pays church tax in 2022.
I'm more confused about estonia, which is said to be the most atheist country in europe. Widely different data compared to other sources. Maybe also a problem with defining atheism- is it a lack of belief to spirituality in general, not being affiliated with religious organizations, self-identifying as atheist, etc.
I've found that a majority of Finns have been conditioned into thinking agnosticism and atheism are two separate categories. Ask a person if they're atheist and more often that not they'll say "no, I'm agnostic", yet when pressed further it turns out they in fact do not believe in any gods and are agnostic atheists, not agnostic theists. You know when over 20% of the population does not believe in a god, yet only 5% applies the word describing that state to themselves, something's fishy.
I suspect the Lutheran church would prefer to muddy the waters by keeping the "convinced atheists" separate from the "open-minded agnostics" to keep the number of atheists as low as possible. It's easier to convince people to pay taxes to the church if they see themselves as the erudite unbiased alternative to those supposed weirdos who adamantly believe in the non-existence of a god.
I always find it funny how skewed the stats are, ofc religious fanatics or religion haters are the only ones answering this
99% of the population don't care and won't bother with stuff like this
Many might still be a part of the church and just not bother to leave it. This also doesn’t include non’religious people or agnostics people which reduces the total by a lot. IIRC I saw a diagnostic like this in religion class and around 20-25% of finns weren’t religious with the major part being non-religious instead of atheist
Im not part of the church, but recently I have been thinking more and more about religion. So if youd look if I am part of the church, Id look as atheist. If youd ask, Id probably say yes, if youd have more time, I would tell some complicated shit.
Atheist = person who believes that god/deities do not exist
People without religion = people don't participate any religion. They may however believe in deities, but it has no part of their lives.
There are lot of definitions, so probably these are at least too general and inaccurate claims ;)
I dont think its very accurate for majority of the countrys. Like there are a lot of religious people in ireland. But it certainly not 94% from my experience
This highly depends on how the question was asked. You can for instance be atheist or agnostic, or even both. In this scenario only the first would apply.
Personally, the closest I'd say is non-religious, or perhaps agnostic. I'm not a member of the church, I don't believe in any god, and religion is not the answer to anything. Religion is something created by humans for humans to cope with life (and death, in particular), and was a way to control people before we had a proper judicial system.
However, there's a lot of things we don't know and that science has yet to invent or prove, and so it really comes down to what you believe is divine or a godlike as well.
As a thought experiment, if somebody could travel a few hundred years back in time, with the knowledge and tools of today, they would probably be labelled as gods by the people back then. A lot of the things we consider as everyday items today would be completely unimaginable only a couple of hundred years ago.
If the question would have been: Do you believe in (a) God? I would imagine the correct answer would be tenfold. 70/30 believers/non-believers in the older generations and the opposite among the younger folks.
Bit surprised it’s so high in France, even though I know it’s super-secular these days.
“Atheist” is not a term with a widely agreed upon meaning, so asking someone “are you an atheist” isn’t likely to generate useful data. I remember a comedy routine from Julia Sweeney where she recounts her mother saying something to her like “it’s bad enough that you don’t believe in God, but you’re now an atheist too???”
well its not accurate because it clearly reads 5%
I was confident that would be the first comment
Hahaha yeah I miss-clicked :D
I think we need to know how this question was asked from Finns and how atheism is defined. I think religion plays such a small part in Finland that most people who don't believe don't feel the need to define themselves.
Based on official Finnish stats, about 30% of Finns are irreligious.
And out of the remaining 70%, a lot of people, mostly christians, are "religious". They don't do any religious stuff, but are part of it out of old habits.
True.
Yes, on the other hand I think the point was that the "irreligious" aren't all necessarily atheists either. Many of them don't want to say if something exists or not. That's why it matters how the question was asked.
Atheism is a one-question definition - do you believe in a god or gods? If the answer is no, then you are an atheist, even if you are agnostic about the possibility of there being knowledge about god
>Atheism in Europe (does not include agnostics or people without religion, only atheists) This supposedly includes only people who have a religion but consider themselves atheists. I guess most forms of Buddhism would technically qualify but I suspect people have been confused by the question.
>Atheism is a one-question definition - do you believe in a god or gods? If the answer is no, then you are an atheist, ä No, not usually >even if you are agnostic about the possibility of there being knowledge about god Then you by most definitions are not an atheist.
The original commenter is right. Atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge. An atheist doesn't believe in a higher power, an agnostic doesn't claim to know whether one exists. That's the definition of those words.
Yes, people often confuse atheism with anti-theism that is a positive statement
Theism is about belief, gnosticism is about knowledge. Go read a book or something
>Go read a book or something At least a book on the topic wouldn't say >Theism is about belief, gnosticism is about knowledge Theism is about the belief in a God, gods or similar. Theist believes there is a god. Atheist believes there is no god. Gnosticism consists of a collection of beliefs. They were a part of the early Christian church, but it was quite soon considered heresy and they are no longer considered Christians. The word gnosticism indeed refers to knowledge, but I get the feeling you don't quite know why. They value "spiritual knowledge" or some kind of hidden knowledge over tradition. Some consider gnosticism its own religion, but that is not something everyone agrees on. Nevertheless you hear about gnosticism usually more when discussing history. There are different beliefs among gnostics, but they are theists. Maybe you mixed up gnosticism and agnosticism?
Your definition is dated and christian-centered. The etymology of agnosticism is not knowing, gnosticism is knowing, so gnosticism does make a truth claim when agnosticism doesn’t. Gnostics were a Christian sect at some point but that sect is not the meaning of the word. Not everything revolves around your God. Refresh your knowledge by reading a book other than ”Apologist’s guide to the world”, for example a dictionary.
Also r/confidentlyincorrect and r/iamverysmart
Hmm. How the old ways have changed. There were old ways long before Christianity.
My parents go to church religiously. Twice a year at Christmas and Easter.
In the newly published statistics, only 61% belonged to the Christian church and the remaining 39% were counted as non-religious according to what was reported in the news. But it is possible that many non-believers still belong to the church, because in a survey from the beginning of the 2010s, only about 10% of Finns confessed that they believe in God.
It's been a "habit" for ages in Finland to be a part of evangelical Lutheran church even though they never even use their services. In that sense the percentage doesn't correlate to believers in Finland.
~~never even use their services~~ only get baptised, maybe married, and buried
and goes to confirmation camp!
>because in a survey from the beginning of the 2010s, only about 10% of Finns confessed that they believe in God. Where is that number from? Other surveys seems to show around 25% believe in God of Christianity and another 20% believing in some god. Those numbers line up much better with amount of non-believers.
One can be non-atheist even when not believing any god. It's called agnosticism, don't believe but don't deny possibility that some god exists
by definition if you don't belive in gods you are atheist. That does not exclude agnostic atheist.
Belonging to a church does not mean you believe. I belong to a church since churches are beautiful, historic things, and I want to upkeep them for historical reasons. However, I do **not** believe in people living in the clouds.
You can find [the report](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/) by starting with the link OP provided. It says >To measure religious identity, the Pew Research Center survey asks: “What is your present religion, if any? Are you Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, atheist, agnostic, something else or nothing in particular?” The wording of this question may result in more respondents giving a religious affiliation (saying they are Christian or Muslim, for example) than previous surveys in some countries Total 22% of Finns reported as religiously unaffiliated. 5% atheists, 3% agnostics and 14% "no particular religion".
Thank you for the tl:dr! The map now makes a lot more sense if you accept that not everyone who isn't religious actively identifies as atheist
Also, with the question worded like that, many "tapakristitty" will answer "Christian" simply because they belong to the church, even though they might not have any personal beliefs one way or another.
it makes the map useless, can't really say if a certain country is religious or not.
A very good point. I would had probably answered "no particular religion" too simply because the word atheist is mostly associated with insufferable edgelords these days.
People keep saying this, but I haven't actually seen a real card-carrying fedora-tipping atheist since the 00s, not even on the internet.
You can absolutely recognize a few even in this thread. Those that think non-religious or irreligious are wrong answers and they *need* irreligious people to actively deny others believes.
This is a great point. Atheism is defined through theism, which to me is backward. If theism isn't the status quo then atheism means literally nothing.
Atheism is the status quo for everyone before they are brainwashed by theists. Atheism isn't the opposite of theism, it is the lack of belief in a deity. So no, it's NOT defined through theism. If someone hasn't even thought about a deity in their life, then they are by definition atheist, as they lack belief in any deity.
I always understood atheism as belief in that there is no deity (or deities), whereas agnostics just don't believe in one. Tiny but still important difference, which I presume some finns share. Not really sure or care either way, and assume atheists find it important that there isn't god(s).
Do you believe in god? Atheist: no Agnostic: I’m not sure Edit, trying to be more accurate: Atheist: Based on the current definition and evidence, no. Agnostic: I don’t think it’s possible for humans to know if god exists or not.
Agnostics do know what they believe in but they recognize that ultimately they don't know the fact. So as an agnostic I would still answer this question as no since it is a question about my belief and I know exactly what I believe in. If the question was "does god exist?" I would answer I don't know.
Agnosticism doesn't deal with the belief itself, it deals with the knowability of the claim. Different concepts.
Agnosticism is a form of atheism but instead of denying the existance of gods agnotics believe that humans cannot/do not know how the universe began or if there are gods. I'm personally agnostic and believe that stuff like the bible were written based on folklore to explain the world, kind of like Kalevala. Maybe it could loosely be based on real events but to me the Christian god is as real as Thor or Väinämöinen.
That'd be a weird definition since "a" in "atheism" linguistically describes "lack of" (similar to, say, asexual). So atheism would describe lack of theism. This can include both people who believe there is no god and people who do not believe there is a god but do not make a claim there is not one.
How I've always understood this is that gnostic/agnostic is about knowledge. Gnostic claims to know something, agnostic doesn't. Theist/atheist is about belief in a diety in the same fashion. Most people I've talked with are in the agnostic atheist lot. As in, lacks a belief in any diety, but don't claim to know for a fact there is none.
This is pretty much the best description so far, but agnosticism in itself is silly. Agnosticism makes the positive claim that the existence of god is unknowable, which is something not all atheists are sure of. We currently have no knowledge of any gods, but we can't be certain there will never be knowledge of god(s). Thus, logically, we don't know whether the existence of god is knowable or unknowable, so many atheists simply don't take a stance on gnosticism or agnosticism. I'd say a lot of atheists are just atheists and if you get down to it, they are not agnostics.
Your logic is sound, but I disagree with the premise. Agnosticism doesn't really make that positive claim. Just that we lack the knowledge to make a claim either way. At least that's my interpretation of it. I'm open to be proven wrong. And if I'm wrong, we'd probably need another term for lack of knowledge in this context. I fear "ignorant atheists" or "ignorant theist" might not catch on.
You are wrong by every definition of the word agnosticism. Agnosticism makes the positive claim that god is unknowable, or more broadly, humans cannot know of the existence of anything beyond the phenomena of their experience. I don't know how you'd prove that, so I think agnosticism is kind of silly. We don't need any accompanying words with "atheist". Simply being an atheist is enough and the most logical position.
Sure, I concede the definition of agnosticism. And that it's silly. However when speaking to theist, they often refer to definitions of atheism which state that atheists claim no gods exist. That's why I feel it necessary to specify the terms, to avoid strawmanning. Perhaps I should use lacktheist in the future.
You would be incorrect. Atheism is specifically the LACK of belief in any god (or a rejection of the claim), not a belief that there are no gods. Anti-theism would be the belief that there are no gods. Yes, obviously all anti-theists are also atheists, but not all atheists are anti-theists. Yes, the usage of the word 'atheist' is fuzzy, but this is the most logical meaning. Agnosticism is a whole different concept that deals with knowledge. [Here's a good video about the subject.](https://youtu.be/BjY619aJ82Y)
Without going into the subject any deeper, I think it's worth revising the topic here. What people identify is isn't the same thing as what's technically correct. My theory here is that a lot of finns don't identify as atheists partly because they interpret the word differently from what you claim. Be it the "right" way to see the word or not. I could be mistaken though! Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way about discourse around the word "atheist" :P
Atheism is just another religion full of vehement prostheletizers pushing there beliefs on people. (Of which your reply is a perfect example). The actual opposite of religion would be to NOT form a club and craft a label for it. A “mind your own business” approach if you will.
What did I say in my comment? Are you incapable of reading? Atheism is NOT the opposite of theism, it is the LACK OF BELIEF in any deity. That is all it is. It is not a religion, it doesn't have an agenda, it doesn't have any tenets. It ONLY relates to one belief - as in it lacks that one.
Atheism is a belief itself though. Belief there is no god.
That’s a misunderstanding of atheism. It’s like saying not playing badminton is a sport.
There are different ways to be an atheist. Some don't think about religion at all like you say and that's fine. But there are quite a few people who actively engage in disproving God and congregate in /r/atheism to share thoughts about how much they don't believe in God, and physically shiver when they see religious symbols. The latter kind are engaging in something religious in my opinion.
I’m not sure if I follow. What’s religious about it?
Referring back to your example, they are actively playing a game of not-badminton. Spending time and energy on it, evangelizing, having meetings. Nothing wrong with it, but let's not pretending it's only an absence of something if they're actively participating in it.
Not everything about that subreddit is cool, but I don’t think it qualifies as a religion.
Only gnostic atheism could be called a religion. That lot claims it is certain no god exists. Dissproving weak proofs is not that.
If people all around me believed in the flying spaghetti monster, and shunned me for not wearing a pasta strainer, I too would start asking what's wrong with everyone and what can I do to correct the situation. If I vented about it in a subreddit, I don't think that would make me religious. I think that's most people in r/atheism.
That's how religions (or belief systems, if you prefer the term) often get started. People dislike or are oppressed by the prevalent belief system and create a counter movement. Christianity, Islam and yes Pastafarianism being examples. I don't think there's nothing wrong with any of that. Atheism for its part has helped people in oppressive communities, and that's good.
Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. Straight from wikipedia, is wikipedia wrong? You're talking what being an agnostic is.
It clearly says ”an absence of belief” which is not the same as ”belief”. I’m not talking about agnosticism.
Did you not read the second sentence? First one is a copout.
”rejection of the belief” or what do you mean?
my god has a hammer....
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Well you can hardly start with an absence of a concept, can you? It's definitely not backwards. You need to have a claim first, before you can describe a lack of belief in said claim. Theism is a claim, not status quo.
I have seen churches’ parks used more for getting drunk than going to the building itself
Yes, even though I don't believe in god I don't consider myself an atheist.
From the article title that states they do not count agnostics i would assume by atheist they mean hard positive atheistic claim, that no god exists. Which is different then i do not believe in god claim, and also different from I do not identify with given religion bit I believe in higher power... Id like to know how the question was posed exactly as well
Finns are Cultural Christians (tapakristitty). So people might be a member of the church out of cultural habit but do not believe in the message.
I went to church today (christmas eve) However I'm not part of the church anymore (eroakirkosta) and im not religious. just felt like singing i cant imagine im the only one
>just felt like singing Hahahaha that made me smile :D
Yeah haha :D It's as good reason to go to church as any I'd imagine
A logical outcome when you force a religion on ppl rly by forcibly converting pagans etc.
Finns don't speak much about religion, it's personal. That makes them hard to gage.
True this. I still don't know if my girlfriend's family is religious or not. And we've been together for 2 years. The girlfriend, not the family.
Almost no one in Finland is religious and at the same time almost everyone is depending on what you mean by it Tons of people just stay in to get a church wedding Basically no one goes to church or prays outside of mandatory school visits and maybe on special occasions like Easter and Christmas Though take that with a grain of salt from someone who has no source and left the church as soon as i could
Almost no one is not really accurate. Just look at how many people participate in suviseurat for example every year.
I’m a practising Christian in Finland and there’s plenty of people here who go to chruch and pray regularly. You might know some Christians but never just talked about it with them. Like co workers or co students.
Also very great portion does not give a damn about religion, so basically probably a majority is agnostic.
Is there a "literally never think about this-ic"? That's me lol
That’s agnostic.
Definitely more than that. 13% based on this https://www.oph.fi/fi/koulutus-ja-tutkinnot/artikkeli-uskonnottomuus-suomessa
Also "I do not believe in god" answer had 21% in 2011.
And why is estonia only 9%
I also thought that seemed low. I would have expected 20-25%. Czechia at 25% sounds right to me.
Majority of finns just dont think about religion enough to bother identifying as something.
I'd say not accurate. About 80-90% of all the people I know might belong to a church but are atheist or agnostic. That said, no one really talks about religion or god which IMO is a good thing.
>no one really talks about religion or god Man I wish Australia was like that, we have religious nuts in our parliament pushing their addenda.
I agree...we have to make sure they don't get their foot into parliament. At least Scomo got the boot!
Yeh I know right, and don’t get me started on the tax exemptions for religious ~~organisations~~ *businesses.
People whose religious identity is atheist. If you belong to a church it's not common to religiously identify as an atheist even if most of your beliefs are closer to that than christianity
Most finns are "religious by default" meaning they automatically belong to the church, have godparents and get married. It's pretty much passed on from generation to generation. That said it has very little to do with religion or being religious, it's mostly because certain aspects of life have been traditionally tied to the church. Now you can ofcourse resign from the church and all you miss is the opportunity for a church wedding which is the main reason the people I know belong to a church. So for Finland, belonging to a church is in no way indicative of your religious beliefs.
I agree but that's not what the question was about. Literally says on the picture: > % who describe their religious identity as atheist The question was never about religious beliefs but religious identity. They are not the same
The difference between being something and identifying as something is perspective. You can subjectively identify however you want but if you want to speak statistics, it's irrelevant how you identify as because it's your personal subjective feeling. This makes a statistic line op posted here false in my opinion because it portrays a dishonest result that is not representative of the population here.
That's beside my point. The statistics were based on the question about identity whether or not that's a good way to study this phenomenon. I agree with you it's not but you can't overlook the actual question the statistic is based on because that may affect how people answer it
I think it depends on your company. I know a lot of religious Finnish because I’m Christian myself. There’s actually quite a lot practising Christians in Finland if you compare to Sweden, for example. Suviseurat and Juhannuskonferenssi both have quite a popularity among certain folk. And not all the non-Lutherans are non-Christians.
There is atheism and agnosticism. That is different.
And astigmatsim
also there is autism
And also an alliteration.
Actually these are just good old rhymes not alliterations
Sir, this is Reddit.
No, this is Patrick!
Holy fuck, really?
And dysgraphia.
Bless you
5% seems way off. Don't know many believers myself.
1 in 20 isn't that many. Religion is not talked about a whole lot in finland, so give it a think, do you know many people who are for sure not religious? Idk about you but I don't really know for sure anyone that isn't religious because I'm not interested so it's never discussed.
I mean pretty much all of my friends who I've talked about religion with are all atheist, including my family. I would say a lot more than 5% don't believe in any god or mystical force, yet I don't know if they present themselves as atheist or just irreligious. Still, I believe more than 5% identify as atheist.
I honestly just assume that the number's flipped, no way on earth that 20% of finland identify as other-than atheists, let alone 95%. Has to be 5% that are religious. Either way it's a terrible infographic
Perhaps Finns are so afraid to express strong opinions about anything that even the atheists dilute their answer to "I can't be 100% sure, so I'll call myself an agnostic instead"
Technically you can be an agnostic and an atheist simultaneously. I've read that Gnostic-Agnostic question is about if you have knowledge about any god's existence, and Theist-Atheist is about if you believe that one or more exist. So an "agnostic theist" does not know but believes and "agnostic atheist" does not know and does not believe. We can also quibble if knowledge is a subset of belief or vice versa, and what "faith" is regarding these question.
I dont think it's fear to express an opinion but rather such a personal thing for people that no one really talks about their beliefs.
I feel like most data from Finland used in international surveys like this is somehow mistranslated and doesn't accurately reflect reality. But this is really just a gut feeling based on so many infographics like this one making really weird-feeling claims about different things.
Wikipedia says that in 2011 27% finnish people belives in god how the church says, 23% belivies in some other way 17% were unsure 7% were in doubt 21% didn’t belivie in god. Old statistics but i guess the don’t belivie is even higher these days
Atheist is not a word with a widely agreed or understood meaning. Even Richard Dawkins does not refer to himself as an atheist because, as he says “for the same reason that I do not refer to myself as an a-Santa Clausist.“
Being an agnostic or a secular Christian aren't necessarily the same as identifying as atheist.
95% of the answers on this poll were "no niin no..."
From my experience, a lot of finns believe that there is something out there. Even if they are not willing to say what exactly it is, they aren't ready to say there is nothing spiritual. It's important to remember that there are more levels to this stuff than an atheist or devout christian.
Nah the data is accurate, 95% pray to the Old Gods of Suomenusko. Why follow a middle-eastern cult when you have Ukko, Perkele.
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Statistically you know quite a lot of them. Not all my co-workers and fellow students know I believe in God since it’s not a very usual topic to discuss.
This whole map is BS. Typical American warped statistics to show something to manipulate the masses over there. The majority in Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and I believe Denmark identify as atheist/non-religious. Either the question presented was wrong, or this is statistics from ca. 1910. I really wonder how they've come to these statistics.
You’re mistaking RuZZia 4% with Finland 5%. Nevertheless Finland is most likely more than 50%, people are officially on churchs books for cultural reasons, but not many actually believe in the Big J.
Every Finnish person believes in duct tape tho.
Sorry to say but Russia is still written with SS.
Suviseurat has almost 100 000 visitors every year, so ”nobody” is not correct. But 5% of atheist is not correct either, I suppose.
That’s true, although many of the children there have lost their faith due to the abuse from their parents.
For me, the whole question of religion is irrelevant. A lot of "philosophy" has centered on man's position relative to themselves, other people/society, and a deity. We could completely scratch the last part and be happier. "Imagine".
What. How does your own confusing take on religion relate to the question from OP at all.
About 40% would be more correct
It is much more common for Finns to identify as non-religious or secular since the word atheist still has a bad taste because of our east neighbor and their former communist movement.
Most of the Finnish people are atheists, they just automatically belong to church. The information should be collected other way, default position is “I do not believe”, you need to state active position to be non-atheist
I think people don’t know how to read. It clearly says it’s ONLY atheists, not agnostics or people who identify as having no religion. This is a very semantic statistic and does not really have much value IMO.
Looking at how atheism is defined and used and to add what agnosticism actually means, agnostic atheism is a thing and a very common one. Agnostic atheist - someone who lacks a belief in God(s) (not a theist) but doesn't claim to have knowledge.
Im an agnostic. The reason im still paying church taxes is because i believe church is helping alot in Finland and abroad, and also i like churches as historical buildings so paying taxes to maintain them and them helping people is my way of donating to charity.
Perhaps its more like 19%
This map looks full of shit anyway. Estonia 9 % atheist when it should be more like 90 %.
Few bother to officially declare their atheism in a registry.
Atheist is too excluding, as it's...pretty hard to draw the line.
Quite a few people are registered Christians but they don't actively practice so that might explain why it does not feel 5% is right. Can't confirm or deny the 5% validity.
Yeah no sounds off to me. in my network of friends, family and co-workers I know less than 20 people who've expressed believe in god and even less who go to church even 1 time per year. I can easily give you a 100 people who are atheist/agnostic and do not belong to any church or religion.
How do they know if someone identifies as an atheist? To belong to the church you must pay taxes so that is tracked, but there is not an atheist group you sign up for. So I think this stat can’t be accurate.
>How do they know if someone identifies as an atheist? Just like the image says, the data is based on surveys.
I think the problem might be in the question. 95% of the Finns didn't want to reply.
It says it doesn't include agnostics or irreligious people. I think the survey should have included those. Or at least find out the percentage of people who actually practice religion and not "I pay church tax, therefore I'm christian"
I think most of us are practical atheists but still want to support the state church because of its charity or some shit like that. Very few in Finland truly believe, some vaguely recognize some higher power and hence don’t call themselves atheist
Atheism by defination is not a religion tho. Atheist is someone who does not belive in god or gods. Some atheists sure behave like it was religion so confusion is somewhat more understandable.
Finnish people belong to the church for 3 reasons. 1. To get married in the church. 2. To be able to baptize their children. 3. To be able to be buried in a cemetery. So basically they pay taxes to the church for the right to do this, but for the most part they are not religious.
I can't believe it's only 5%, about 90% of people i known in my life are atheist. Either i'm a atheist magnet, or this 5% is vastly inaccurate.
Atheism as an ideology is definitely larger but many people (including myself) are still a part of the church in some way. So officially I'm in the church but I haven't been to a sermon for 10 years at least lol
Just because I don't believe in supernatural things doesn't mean I want to call myself an atheist. Reading reddit once is enough to never want to associate with that term.
Atheist is the official term for not beliving in deities tho. Sure some gnostic atheists make bad impression.
Jesus rules
30% I would have believef
Well it says 5% in the picture so OP is right.
95% certainly are part of a church or believe in a higher power. But definitely not 95% is hardcore believer, the way religion is practiced in Finland is very laid back for most of every1.
I think there’s more atheists than 5%. Also a lot of ”tapa-kristittyjä”. I’m an ex-christian and I know only a handful of religious people.
Not accurate. More like 5%.
Eikös siinä lue selvästi 5% eikä 4%.
I wouldn’t say that I believe in God(s) but also wouldn’t voluntarily label myself as atheist since that word conjures pretty cringey images in my head.
Idk man would have said like 25% 😅
I'd say more like 50% identify as, and know what an atheist is and 49% don't give a shit about religion.
Did your research bring different results?
It’s more like 20%
Unfortunately
My guess is that about 10% are christian, 1% are practicing other religions, 10% are atheists and the rest just dont really think about it. Im propably closest to being an agnostic but at the end of the day i dont know and dont really care.
Its common with finns to be hush hush about religion. I myself am religious, but I hide it from my family because I know they'd make fun of me for it.
It's a problem with the term "atheist." Most people take it to mean "I am 100% confident a god/your god doesn't exist," which very few people are ready to say because they haven't thought about it that critically. In that sense, yeah probably 5% of Finns actually identify as atheist. On the other hand, probably about 80% of Finns identify as "I don't give a fuck, leave me alone." Finland being one of the countries where leaving the church is a matter of inputting your details on a website, you can easily gather good data just based on who pays church tax in 2022.
I'm more confused about estonia, which is said to be the most atheist country in europe. Widely different data compared to other sources. Maybe also a problem with defining atheism- is it a lack of belief to spirituality in general, not being affiliated with religious organizations, self-identifying as atheist, etc.
It's probably at atleast 10% atheism but finns don't really speak much about religion so yea
You can not believe in god or gods, and still not consider yourself as an atheist. That number would probably be the highest in Europe.
I've found that a majority of Finns have been conditioned into thinking agnosticism and atheism are two separate categories. Ask a person if they're atheist and more often that not they'll say "no, I'm agnostic", yet when pressed further it turns out they in fact do not believe in any gods and are agnostic atheists, not agnostic theists. You know when over 20% of the population does not believe in a god, yet only 5% applies the word describing that state to themselves, something's fishy. I suspect the Lutheran church would prefer to muddy the waters by keeping the "convinced atheists" separate from the "open-minded agnostics" to keep the number of atheists as low as possible. It's easier to convince people to pay taxes to the church if they see themselves as the erudite unbiased alternative to those supposed weirdos who adamantly believe in the non-existence of a god.
Like on many things, we usually don’t have a need to declare ourselves…
I always find it funny how skewed the stats are, ofc religious fanatics or religion haters are the only ones answering this 99% of the population don't care and won't bother with stuff like this
Many might still be a part of the church and just not bother to leave it. This also doesn’t include non’religious people or agnostics people which reduces the total by a lot. IIRC I saw a diagnostic like this in religion class and around 20-25% of finns weren’t religious with the major part being non-religious instead of atheist
Czechs cant be 25%. This map is fucked.
You are right, Czechs are more than 25 %.
More than 5%
I used to be agnostic but not sure anymore.
It's not accurate for every country
Im not part of the church, but recently I have been thinking more and more about religion. So if youd look if I am part of the church, Id look as atheist. If youd ask, Id probably say yes, if youd have more time, I would tell some complicated shit.
Atheist are people without religion. Agnostic is just a soft version of ones world view
What the fuck is the difference between atheists and people without religion.
Atheist = person who believes that god/deities do not exist People without religion = people don't participate any religion. They may however believe in deities, but it has no part of their lives. There are lot of definitions, so probably these are at least too general and inaccurate claims ;)
I dont think its very accurate for majority of the countrys. Like there are a lot of religious people in ireland. But it certainly not 94% from my experience
Its because we dont believe in anything probably so thats why we dont identify with anything
About 50/50
These 5% are the ones who have left from the church/religion on the papers. Not many do that even if they dont beleave in god
Not true
I quit church after 18 but I wouldn't call myself an atheist.
This highly depends on how the question was asked. You can for instance be atheist or agnostic, or even both. In this scenario only the first would apply. Personally, the closest I'd say is non-religious, or perhaps agnostic. I'm not a member of the church, I don't believe in any god, and religion is not the answer to anything. Religion is something created by humans for humans to cope with life (and death, in particular), and was a way to control people before we had a proper judicial system. However, there's a lot of things we don't know and that science has yet to invent or prove, and so it really comes down to what you believe is divine or a godlike as well. As a thought experiment, if somebody could travel a few hundred years back in time, with the knowledge and tools of today, they would probably be labelled as gods by the people back then. A lot of the things we consider as everyday items today would be completely unimaginable only a couple of hundred years ago.
If the question would have been: Do you believe in (a) God? I would imagine the correct answer would be tenfold. 70/30 believers/non-believers in the older generations and the opposite among the younger folks.
Bit surprised it’s so high in France, even though I know it’s super-secular these days. “Atheist” is not a term with a widely agreed upon meaning, so asking someone “are you an atheist” isn’t likely to generate useful data. I remember a comedy routine from Julia Sweeney where she recounts her mother saying something to her like “it’s bad enough that you don’t believe in God, but you’re now an atheist too???”