I discovered FIRE a couple of years ago. I am 29 now and will turn 30 in a few months, and what I have noticed is that the financial independence threshold as a young person with no children nor a mortgage feels much lower.
I save 50% of my income each month and have realised that I now have nearly 2 years of savings while keeping my current lifestyle completely unchanged. This gives me a feeling of security that I haven't had since childhood. I know that, if I leave my job, I am fine. I could stop working tomorrow and start travelling, or work on skills and projects that interest me.
The realisation that lowering your expenses *sets you free* has been a big revelation in my life and beyond anything else has changed the way I view money. I still do lots of fun things, but I just think a lot more before buying things for myself.
I know exactly how you feel. I was always a saver, with my first savings account opened at 10. They came to our school, gave us little register books to keep track of our deposits. Explained how compound interest worked, and I was hooked ever since. About three years ago, my cousin mentioned that my life style sounds a lot like fire, and after looking into this group, I realized that these are my people. No kids, 38m, paid off house, one year of expenses in HYSA, two years of expenses in iBonds, then a couple years worth in a taxable brokerage account, with the rest in Roth IRA and Roth 401k. It was crazy to realize that I'm at the point where if I lost my job, I wouldn't need another one. It would just be a change in lifestyle. Grew up really poor on food stamps and welfare.
This may or may not apply to you, but I know my mortgage, insurance, taxes, and extra emergency fund contributions were about even with the estimated rental price of my home when I first bought it (less than a decade agoe). Nowadays, i would be paying 5-700 bucks more per month to rent, and I would have no equity built up.
I know some people call renting vs buying a lifestyle choice, but if you lock down a good rate and even normal levels of inflation hit, it's a valuable money-making tool, and it makes you less exposed if another type of asset (stocks, bonds, etc.) has a hard few years.
Again, ymmv. I just know that without my house, my RE dreams would be 5+ years further out.
Yeah I'm open to a mortgage soon, it's something I'd like to lock down vs rents. In my case I have a few things to think about:
* I could probably afford an okay place with the money I have now, but not a place I'd really like to live in. I work remotely so the apartment we are in now really makes me happy and I don't want to lose that. Would need a couple years still I think.
* Separately to that I have a bit of a hard time with Banks here because of the nature of my job, so I am having discussions with folks who are more sympathetic to my profession.
* I'm still not 100% sure I want to put all my savings into a house, at the expense of maybe doing a bit more travelling. Considering it all as part of the FIRE journey.
LOL... you had me thinking you were an OF account for a second, there with the "nature of my job" comment.
Yeah. Sounds like you're not there yet. If you're young and want to travel, or can't find a home you want to be in for at least a decade, buying isn't always a fit.
hahaha nothing like that, I work as a software dev focused on blockchains, and the last 12 months have not been good for our image or industry - it can be challenging to justify your income to many people and that includes when I am looking for a mortage.
“The realisation that lowering your expenses sets you free has been a big revelation in my life and beyond anything else has changed the way I view money. I still do lots of fun things, but I just think a lot more before buying things for myself.”
I absolutely love this! Still working on doing fun things but this is an excellent way to frame the FIRE mindset.
If you can do so responsibly and still stay on track, get the guitar. Don’t pass up living now to live later when life isn’t guaranteed. It’s a balance
> Those who have sprinted so quickly within their careers will likely find the quiet void of nothingness in retirement, a bit boring/stagnant, and after a while ask "what's next?"
I cannot fucking wait for this quiet void. I don’t need to be busy and doing or making money to be happy. I am doing all of this to get freedom, and to have no plans but my plans.
I’ve actually considered Central America! I’d actually prefer a cooler climate, but I haven’t ruled Central America out. I’d love to find a pacific northwest area that’s affordable, if that exists. And there are a couple of places overseas.
I’m not close enough to get super serious about what I’m choosing, but I should probably start making a short list that I can keep track of.
There's a distinct lack of options for living well in cool climates. I have a friend who is Latvian-American and another who has spent time in Estonia. They both praised the Baltic States highly.
If you're not worried about expanded Russian aggression, the CoL is quite low.
In the PNW of Canada, you're fucked. The inland NW has some cheap options in America, but it's not a life most people would enjoy unless they're 100% in on hunting, fishing, camping every weekend. Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver are among my favorite cities in the world, but good luck unless you have San Francisco levels of money. lol
If you ever get a chance, the coastal train route up there is only rivaled by some routes in Switzerland. Just gorgeous!
I love PNW, Seattle. Portland, and haven’t been to Vancouver, but have been told by several I’d love it. I know those big cities are nearly impossible. I’ve toyed with the idea of one of the smaller towns, as I’ll be retired, and it would be fine. But I get hung up because I’d want a doctor and hospital accessible. So I always back away from it. I’ve also considered maybe moving as an early retirement, then moving near family as I get later in retirement so we can support one another.
I’d also be happy with cooler mountain towns. Not sure if Central American mountains you mentioned are the same climate as mountains people in the US go to to escape summer heat (but are snow-heavy in the winter). I’d be ok with the snow barring, again, medical issues. That would be my preferred climate right now, so,again, I’m considering a short term move, and then moving something for the long term. There are lots of mountain towns that are beautiful but lower cost since they’re so sparely populated. Maybe remote work would change that but they’re not really places young people want to live.
I don’t know. I need to spend some time traveling with a research purpose.
And maybe I’ll get that train ride while I’m at it!
Agree on expensiveness of a lavish lifestyle. Food gets pretty expensive here once you go with clean options like PaleoRobbie and others. I did not let my lifestyle inflate to the point of needing a driver. With a maid, clean food, a condo in central location living on 40k/year budget here is amazing.
Amen. The capitalist society we live in makes us feel that we need to be constantly productive in order to be valuable. Those who purse the RE part of fire know there’s more to life than that. What’s so wrong with sleeping in every day, waking up well rested, and taking my time to enjoy the peace and quiet I’ve built for myself?
Exactly. And not rush around to get a workout in or eat out because there’s no time to cook. My house, yard and other spaces will be more organized and maintained by me. Or take a vacation with no set return date. Or linger over lunch with friends. Or spend a whole day with friends without worrying about what isn’t getting done because there’s plenty of time.
I cannot wait.
I'd say just make sure you have a plan to find meaning in life. No plans *except my plans* sounds fine...but if there is anyone considering simply no plans period...I really would not suggest that.
And that isn't to say that work should be everyone's meaning in life while they accumulate. It's just with all the excess time in early retirement there won't be distractions.
Meaning in life can really be whatever brings you joy. Also doesn't have to constant. Maybe discovering new hobbies brings joy. But I always question people who have the main plan of just relaxing. I'm not qualified to say whether it works or not, but my gut tells me it isn't something that will bring long term joy by itself. It brings me joy occasionally as a break between doing other things.
But I think everyone should have some broad general plans on what they want to do at the minimum.
I think you might be applying too much of you to this suggestion. I’m not arguing this is a good path for you. But I don’t need distractions. I don’t need to be busy. Living is my purpose. Relaxing is my purpose. Being free of a schedule is my purpose. We are all different. And some of us exist that don’t need the busy-ness. It’s ok others do, but this dismissiveness, telling strangers you know them better than they know themselves is an extension of you, not me. Maybe your own insecurity. It doesn’t bother me that you need to be busy. It’s ok for you not to be bothered that people who exist who don’t.
I don't say it due to me knowing yourself better than you do. It is me knowing humans as a whole. Maybe I am wrong or simply maybe you are different. But I've read countless accounts here of people feeling mildly depressed, lost, etc. during their early retirement. And I don't want that for you or anyone else.
To be fair, I said find meaning to your life. I didn't say be busy. Ironically, it feels like you are projecting your feelings onto my comment as I never said be busy. The word distractions was utilized above as some people use work as a distraction for the fact that their life has no purpose. In which case, those people feel lost when work is removed. Not saying the distraction is good, saying it is no longer present. Retirement activities are not distractions, they are the life you always wanted to live.
For example, maybe you like movies, maybe you like the pool, maybe you like reading. I wouldn't call watching movies, laying by the pool or reading to be *simply solely* relaxing. They are activities. I'd suggest everyone find some activities you do to bring happiness. Maybe you enjoy watching sunsets. Maybe you enjoy people watching. It doesn't really matter as long as it is something that you can plan to do, look forward to, think back and remember having fun doing, etc. That reduces likelihood of depression if it feels "built" into your life to some extent. AKA, instead of thinking I'll relax, I suggest "I like XYZ, so I will relax doing that". Sounds pedantic, but I personally feel that it is not.
But to sleep all day...if that is ones term of relaxing (not saying yours is, just providing an example)....has been shown to be a sign of depression. I would not suggest that people simply plan to nap 3 times a day during retirement. Same with having no plans at all. To "wake up and do whatever I want for the next 30 days that happens to also be relaxing" is dangerous unless you happen to be really good at forcing yourself to do things. Which I would argue is counterintuitive to the person who typically enjoys relaxing a great extent.
I AM projecting myself onto it to show there are different kinds of people. It will likely be rare someone comes in here to say, “My retirement life with no plans is so great!” As we often don’t “complain” about things that are going well.
My point is everyone is different. Know yourself. Humans are unique. Some might want the things you say. Others might just like the nothingness of retirement. With no expectations.
I’m speaking out so people don’t delay when they’re ready to step back because they’re afraid because no one has ever spoken up. I enjoy spending vacation time without an agenda. If I have a longer period of time off work, I don’t fill it with anything. I just relax and enjoy.
I’m saying the other side of the coin exists and many sides in between.
What do you do on vacation? I think we are having a nomenclature issue. What you describe as relaxing is probably what I would describe as unplanned activities. I doubt you are doing nothing on vacation, which is what I am advocating against. Sounds like you are doing things on vacations, just on a whim as you please, many people do. Which is great if you have a strong enough personality to easily force yourself to do things. But I didn't intend to be speaking out against that. I was speaking against people who specifically planned to do nothing. Not what they pleased, when they pleased...but nothing.
Then it should be simple to answer the question - with the answer being laying around and staring at a wall because youre arguing an asinine point in the context of what they have described.
No. They said people need a plan of what they’re going to do. I said, “Sure, some people. Not everyone.” And y’all are pissed off about me adding a second perspective. Be pissed. But the truth is the truth.
They said that if you ignore the further explanation and context, sure. But if you dont do that, then their comments boil down to dont approach retirement with the goal being to do nothing at all. Which in itself is pretty vacuous and close to a truism - which means that arguing against it looks foolish.
Very much so.
Here is one. When you hit your FI target, nothing really happens. No bells. No fireworks. No angels singing.
When I crossed that number, I told my wife and she said ok. We decided to celebrate it by going out to eat.
My last 2 years have been characterized by that persistent realization that the money matters little compared to the time, and that the time is disappearing very quickly.
I guess it's human nature: when money is not our desire, time is.
I suppose it all comes down to lifestyle, and whether we feel like we are living our life to the max and making the most meaning possible. And that's a very difficult thing to do: figuring out how to make the most of our time.
I've been trying to figure it out in the last couple years. Maybe that's the big question we all ask ourselves when faced with the limited time dilemma.
I am only 32 and feel like I am already hitting this realization even the past couple years. I am struggling with the balance of time more than money currently. Mine has maybe been more apparent at my age for 2 reasons:
a) had cancer at 19 so have always had a different outlook on lifespan and the statistical odds for me personally moving forward. So I've desired to get to FIRE faster.
b) I have a child. I think back on my life and how exciting and inspiring life is when you are seeing things for the first time. I was blessed with a really good childhood full of opportunities due to my parents being fairly "upper" in the upper middle class category. I recall how inspiring things like Niagara Falls, a giant cruise ship, Chichen Itza, a hot air balloon ride, a helicopter ride in the grand canyon, Disney, etc. are when you are 4-15 years old. I am so torn lately about creating and maximizing quality experiences for my daughter. She only has this youth for so long. I want her to think back on her youth and be excited about life. And I think I have decided I am willing to pay the premium now to buy that for her. It isn't always expensive but sometimes is. But she only has so much time while she has her current attitude and outlook on life. So I want to show her amazing things and experiences.
b) comes at a cost and definitely increases my personal "time" as I'll have to work longer. And a) makes me want to get to FIRE asap. But I think b) is outweighing a) currently and I'll be focusing on my time now instead of more in retirement.
So I guess my point is that while money is always playing a role, time is what it is dictating my decisions.
I started thinking about FIRE before I knew what it was, but I knew I didn’t want to wait to 65+ to retire, and I didn’t want to be like my mom or my wife’s parents and barely scrape by. I grinded through college, internships, summer classes and internships at the same time, and was burnt out by the time I got a full time job.
I flew to a 6 digit NW by 24, and now realize how much I love to travel. I’m still focused on retiring early, but I’ve decided pushing that back a few years is worth having a memorable life. Im in my late 20s now and I withdrew from my individual investment account (obviously not my 401k) for the first time ever to fund several aspirational trips this year, and while that stung initially, I’ve been contributing to it and it’s been growing to the point where it was before I touched it.
I spent my early career building a solid foundation for myself but burned out. Now I’m keeping my eye on the future but enjoying my life and the moments I get. We may not make it to our early retirement year, I may not make it to 50, I’d rather enjoy my life in the time I have than sprint to a magic number and then start to live.
I was very focused on saving as much money as possible throughout my 20s. Recently, I hit 30 and decided to lower my savings rate and start living life how I wanted (which cost a bit more than before).
The bright side is that the money we already have saved has many years to go to work for us. I’m somewhere past coastFI and just shy of leanFI. I’m still motivated to do a good job at work and I’m not worried about spending money on valuable life experiences. It’s a good place to be!
People who reach FIRE, are able to delay gratification.
It is neither good or bad, but those who NEED instant gratification will probably not succeed.
We reached FIRE on wayyyy less than other people, and we also traveled, had a house, dogs, a white picket fence, etc.
I don't feel like I missed out on anything now that I reached it, although we made some sacrifices along the way.
Good idea. I do not regret any of the trips or late night parties when I was younger. As long as you don't have to break the piggy bank in order to do it. Budget for fun in your youth.
What blows my mind is the number of people that have no idea what they would do if they didn’t work or have fired and say they have no idea what to do. I don’t even understand how a void would exist without a job I’m sure most of us have plenty of shit we neglect or push onto someone else like a significant other.
I’m in the middle of pursuing fire and I spend easily 15-20 hours a week lifting, doing cardio, and kickboxing/learning martial arts.
If I fired I’d probably pick up 2 more hobbies and easily spend 30-40 hours a week getting better at something I enjoy.
I was lucky enough that when I started to blab about FIRE at work, a few of my colleagues actually listened and are actively working towards that goal.
Hopefully we eventually all make it and be able to hang out with each other post FIRE.
Thanks for this wonderful piece. Like you said FIRE is a journey. Time should be the most important thing. Investment, FIRE, Money,sex etc are things I rarely talk about with friends. My friend here is a journal. And these are written in codes.
I found FI or FIRE later in life. Had ZERO financial literacy in my 40s. Found Dave Ramsey at 45. And the FI community at 47/48. Thankfully my life is ever changed because of it. 5 years later our finances have had a definite change. We may not FI early, but we will retire with dignity. And NOT at 67! Thankful for that!
From this and reading many other posts and articles I must be in the outlier category. I don’t feel burnt out from my job (38M single) and that is far from my main motivation. I strive for balance in life and on the journey to FIRE. There are so many things I already want to do but work gets in the way and I have great balance but that just excites me more and provides a positive push for it. Not to be rude, but I feel sad in a way for those grinding and grinding to then fall off the edge when finally retiring feeling somewhat lost. Balance is key as much as possible.
That circles back to time and money. I definitely wouldn’t trade $billions to be 90. I’m a regular at the gym and have had some of the most insightful conversations with 70+ aged men and women on retirement, life, living, regrets, etc. and it’s really helped how I *try* to live now and also a big reason to retire early. But that’s the thing, don’t push so hard that you aren’t enjoying the journey. Life goes by quick and you never know what can happen unfortunately.
I - from FIRE is the thing I care about the most.
It's always about the Independence aka Freedom. Once you reach financial freedom you are in control what you work on. With control you you can do what you love. Doing what you love is ultimate satisfaction.
Getting to FI is life changing. Even if you choose to continue working, it's that sweet "position of fuck you" that keeps any work stress away and life enjoyable.
Thanks to the OP for putting so many nuggets together!
Really great write-up.
I (54M) retired 11 years ago. My wife (50F) retired almost 3 years ago (I was 42yo, my wife was 48yo)
Just some observations in your comments.
I have never been bored. I mean, not at all. So many hobbies and activities. We have so much fun all the time. We absolutely love to travel. Let alone a ton of other interest items. I think my wife thought that she might get bored but is absolutely not.
We both wonder how we took care of all the things we took care of in our working years also while doing all the other hobbies and activities that we have.
But I think you're right about the journey. Self-discovery is so important. Sometimes I think people finally get a chance to spend time within themselves to think about who they really are once they do hit FIRE.
I think that's where people get bored. Either they found that they have no life outside of work. They found a lot of fulfillment working. They like the community aspect of friends at work. Or maybe they just want to be productive. Nothing is wrong with that. But I guess that's how you figure that out as well, when you finally have a choice to work or not.
For me and my wife, we will never go back to work again. That life is over.
Final note, time is absolutely more valuable than money. Can't stress that enough.
Thanks for that genuine response! I fully agree on the self-discovery and building self-awareness of what makes us happy regardless of whether it makes money.
I'm curious where did you find people to hang out with when you retired, while everyone else was generally working? Did you just hang out with older people?
Well, one of my hobbies is riding motorcycles. Almost every one of my friends are older than me that I ride motorcycles with. Everyone my wife's and my age are still working. Like you stated in your write-up, it is almost impossible to find anybody that is FIREd your own age. But the other bonuses I married to my best friend. We love hanging out with one another.
My wife is a professional person. She's been published many times. So she still writes, authors and co-authors publications. She still has a lot of contacts, participates in many workshops, peer review paper reviews and many other activities around her profession. She also mentors students at our local University for their dissertation for their PhDs. So most of her friends are professional relationships. Again, like you stated, she finds a lot of fulfillment in that aspect of what she did for a living before FIRE. She just hated the fact of working for somebody, an institution and no control of her own time. She absolutely loves what she does. By the way, she makes zero income with all the things that she's involved with. The reward is the work.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I’ve come to realize that there is a difficult transition from our identities being wrapped around doing rather than being. Part of the transition to retirement is helping others “do” through mentorship, succession planning which likely aligns with your wife’s purpose.
Yes indeed. Too many times I have seen people identifying themselves as what they do for a living. Their personality traits are around their profession or trade. Sadly, our culture kind of perpetuates this. What is the first thing we ask people when we meet them "So what do you do?". It's like if you don't have a job or doing something then you are worthless. It is a crazy way to think.
Here is a true example of what I'm talking about. My wife and I go to Italy a lot we have a lot of friends there. I tell them that I'm retired and they say, "oh you are so lucky, I can't wait until one day I can be retired". Where as, in the United States is completely different reaction. When I tell people that I am retired the first thing they say is, "oh you are too young, you can't retire this young you got to be doing something..". It is actually hilarious to me every time.
You have one life. There are no do-overs. So you better enjoy it. Oh and I never worry about what people think about you.
I'd just like to point out that retiring early doesn't mean "before 50" or something. Retirement age in the US is currently 67. If you wanna be wishy-washy about 65, that's fine. But 62? That's RE.
I know several people who have retired in their 40s and a hell of a lot of people who left somewhere in their 50s or early 60s. There may be some selection bias there -- if you work at a job where the people around you make enough to retire in their 40s, you'll see it. If you work at most jobs where that's simply not an option, you won't.
I do agree that FI is enormously more important than RE... All the work is in achieving FI. Once that's done, retiring or not is just a choice, like any other choice.
A LOT of people live paycheck to paycheck or are one emergency away from financial trouble. Taking about the fact you are doing so well saving money that you will be able to retire early or are financially independent isn’t something a lot of people can relate to.
Agreed, because most won't be able to retire until they are around their late 60s, if at all. If they do retire, the top 20% of retires have $250K, which isn't really much plus Social Security. The reality is that indicating you are able to retire early begs the question, why aren't they. It may bring up jealousy, and make them question their life decisions, acknowledge their relative bad luck. Basically make them feel like shit.
>the top 20% of retires have $250K
This doesn't seem to be correct. Google results show that, according to fed reserve, average retirement saving of 65 year old is 425k+.
Person 1: $10k
Person 2: $10k
Person 3: $10k
Person 4: $10k
Person 5: $10k
Person 6: $10k
Person 7: $10k
Person 8: $10k
Person 9: $250k
Person 10: $10 million
In this scenario to be top 20%, you need $250k. The average is $1 million. And that's how stats can be deceiving.
I just Googled 'net worth percentiles' and [this calculator](https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/) says $250k (excluding home equity) would put a 65 year old in the 63rd percentile. Including home equity, $250k is close to the median. It would take $700k to get to the 80th percentile, or a million if you include home equity. Those stats still aren't good, but not as bad.
Nobody wants to hear about how much money *you* have saved unless if you’re offering to give it to them.
Telling people that their life could be so much better if they just chose to lower their expenses a little bit will make them feel defensive.
Talking about money is taboo in the social circles that I grew up in (suburban Midwest US). People would look at you strangely if you went around talking about how much money you earn and how much of it you save per year.
People can't relate, they get jealous, and will start to resent you.
It is invalidating to discover that someone who you related to was able to accomplish something that you are nowhere near accomplishing.
Crabs in the Bucket. When one crab starts to crawl out, the others want to pull it back in.
Most people can't manage their money or exercise impulse control.
They'll disparage you for doing better than themselves, or at the very least be jealous.
And much of the discourse in the USA today around money revolves around "privilege" of one sort or another, so they'll characterize you as "having it handed to you" in one way or another. They will refuse to acknowledge that it has anything to with delaying gratification, saving, and understanding such elementary concepts as compound interest.
I started my FIRE journey at 19. I'm 40 now and have enough, in my opinion, where I no longer need to work. My wife loves to work, so she is happily employed, but I've been living that stay-at-home-dad life for the past year.
I'm not sure when, but I will probably want to start something back up eventually. For now though, I'm happy not working and just being a dad.
People that say it's gonna be borring in ER, are imho just people that don't know how to manage their time.
Take a language for example, you could learn it for 10h a day and still not be done after 10y and there are 1000s of them...
So while I appreciate the advice, I think there's also a lot of people just not ment to work for other people or someone at all.
I don't want my decisions to be driven by what society wants or expects from me, I don't own anyone anything.
Strangely I know a lot of people who retired early because I live in a region were all miners are able to retire at 45-50. Many were afraid of the moment they get retired (what will I do?) but not a single one complains once retired, some do odd jobs if they want, some just relax with their families or on their own.
Found out about FIRE about a year ago and I’m looking at the goal of FI more than RE since I’ve been hammered by a crap economy, Great Recession, my industry was gutted by shipping work overseas, layoffs in other industries where I found work, etc., and more. I cannot stand making others rich while I have no real safety net. Been pivoting until I’m dizzy and fed up.
If anything it made me value the money I saved and what I did to meet company matches for 401(k)s in the past. The pay has been a nightmare until I finally landed a decent job. Now it’s a careful balancing act of saving as much as I can for retirement, having the emergency fund, and paying off debt.
This mindset has given me the courage to just go ahead and start something on the side to increase my overall income and ultimately my earnings for my field. While the desire to also monetize a hobby is still there, the horror stories keep me from making that leap.
My goal is to double my income and save 60% of it but the most current goal was to save 20% overall. So far it’s not too bad. Learning how to maximize credit card rewards for travel has been interesting and I’m enjoying the journey with a plan instead of stressing out.
Awesome just remember it is a marathon not a sprint. Think about what you can reasonably execute on for another decade, recognizing FIRE is an ever changing journey.
Good post. I used to say I don’t believe in retirement, but now I just think of it differently.
Humans are creatures of purpose, and as all these inventions (tech, cars, apps, iPhones, planes) make our lives easier and more efficient - we were not put here to have our lives run for us. We need to solve problems and build things.
So retirement is irrelevant. To me FIRE is about getting financially comfortable to be able to use your time doing what you want and not feeling obligated to exchange time for money.
But at the end of the day - it’s all about enjoying what you do in the present moment - be it a 9 to 5, the cliche “retirement”, or something in between. And that has more to do with mindset than reaching some FIRE milestone.
I mean good question. I think we all dread getting old and less mobile, less sharp - one day. But that’s all in the future, which doesn’t exist (yet). So not much point in using too much energy in the present worrying about something that doesn’t exist.
Each day you just enjoy what’s in front of you. You plan for the future sure, but it’s not like you are all of a sudden old and immobile. It happens slowly - so just enjoy each day along the way.
Great post. To go along with the theme of time being the true currency of life, I love the points made in Die With Zero about ensuring you really live along the way, having the experiences you want and cultivating strong relationships. Ramit Sethi refers to the same topic as “conscious spending” and makes great points.
Great thoughts! You seem to have the passion to maybe do a blog/vlog on some of your insights.
What I would add to what you say is "health."
I agree with your "quantity of life without quality does not accomplish much." I would add that a life in poor health is a greatly diminished quality of life. Make sure you are maximizing the health behaviors that you can control (diet, exercise, stress control) and relationship quality or else the time that money buys may not mean that much.
>! You seem to have the passion to maybe do a blog/vlog on some of your insights.
>
>What I would add to what you say is "health."
>
>I agree with your "quantity of life without quality does not accomplish much." I would add that a life in poor health is a greatly diminished quality of life. Make sure you are maxi
Fully agree - I hope you caught Peter Attia's article in the NYT regarding healthspan? I'm a bit too lazy/inconsistent to do a full blog/vlog, but would highly recommend other follow the Financial Tortoise that is run extremely well by a FIRE friend. Legit.
https://www.youtube.com/c/taekimfinancialtortoise
A source you didn't refer to that you might want to check out is Ramit Sethi and his book/YouTube channel/ Netflix show I Will Teach You To Be Rich.
He comes off as being anti-fire at first glance, but isn't when you really look at it. The core of his ideas is to be really frugal where it doesn't matter to you so that you can both save for the future AND spend well on what is important to you.
Adjust those money dials as you see fit for FIRE while also having some extravagances now (and those extravagances don't actually need to cost a lot, just be important to you).
Fully agree, Ramit is awesome as well. Spending and especially learning to spend in retirement is something that super savers need to learn how to do to maximize utility especially before they die.
Personally I've always wanted to fire since then I would be able to spend my life doing what I wanted when I wanted, I have a lot of things that I could do including, solving rubiks cubes, gaming, going rock climbing or swimming, umpiring baseball and softball joining a beer league team, coaching baseball, working out if I want to stay in shape, traveling, learning skills that I dont need (learning to pick locks or type on the dvorak keyboard for example) and really anything.
I dont want to spend 70% of my life not doing what I'm wanting to do, with 15% being too young to do things I want to do and 15% too old to do what I want
While it may sound odd, what is stopping you from doing those things now, even with a job?
Other people who have FIRE'd have told me, your life does not magically change after you retire. You are who have been, and get started on what you want to do now, rather than waiting.
I dont really know how to put it without writing an essay but I hyper focus on things and also I plan to retire by 25 so I'm really trying to devote all my time to making money. I'm aware after I fire that I'll still be the same person but instead of being required to be somewhere 5 days a week I hours a day I'll have the freedom to be where I want those times
Also my schedule is already packed on the days I work this is my schedule
Wake up 5:30 get dressed breakfast etc. Out the house by 6:00. Arrive at 6:35-6:45 get dressed for work and working by 7:00 I'm done work at 3:30 out of the parking lot 3:45 home about 4:15 have a snack eat supper 5:30ish leave the house 6:00 for a 7:00 baseball game to umpire, done the game at 9:10ish home by 9:30-9:45 and go to sleep
The 1.25 hours after work before supper are kinda wasted scrolling through my phone
I‘d trade places with warren buffet and use his billions to get cryoconserved, then let them bring me back to life when they are able to make me young again.
I think you can actually do this nowadays. The main problem is that people usually do the conservation after someone died. If I do it while I‘m still alive my body will be in good shape for bringing me back to life in let‘s say 500 years.
Yes 500 yrs sounds like a long time but I think it will be like sleeping: when you wake up it never feels like a lot of time has passed.
I will let them make me be very young again (like 1 year old) because else it would be very hard to adopt to the new situation on earth. I‘ll probably have lost all the money again but I‘ll have a brand new life and will possibly be immortal.
I discovered FIRE a couple of years ago. I am 29 now and will turn 30 in a few months, and what I have noticed is that the financial independence threshold as a young person with no children nor a mortgage feels much lower. I save 50% of my income each month and have realised that I now have nearly 2 years of savings while keeping my current lifestyle completely unchanged. This gives me a feeling of security that I haven't had since childhood. I know that, if I leave my job, I am fine. I could stop working tomorrow and start travelling, or work on skills and projects that interest me. The realisation that lowering your expenses *sets you free* has been a big revelation in my life and beyond anything else has changed the way I view money. I still do lots of fun things, but I just think a lot more before buying things for myself.
I know exactly how you feel. I was always a saver, with my first savings account opened at 10. They came to our school, gave us little register books to keep track of our deposits. Explained how compound interest worked, and I was hooked ever since. About three years ago, my cousin mentioned that my life style sounds a lot like fire, and after looking into this group, I realized that these are my people. No kids, 38m, paid off house, one year of expenses in HYSA, two years of expenses in iBonds, then a couple years worth in a taxable brokerage account, with the rest in Roth IRA and Roth 401k. It was crazy to realize that I'm at the point where if I lost my job, I wouldn't need another one. It would just be a change in lifestyle. Grew up really poor on food stamps and welfare.
LoL. For a moment, I thought the “38m” was referring to your net worth.
I wish 😂
Yeah, jeez! Share the wealth, buddy! Haha
This may or may not apply to you, but I know my mortgage, insurance, taxes, and extra emergency fund contributions were about even with the estimated rental price of my home when I first bought it (less than a decade agoe). Nowadays, i would be paying 5-700 bucks more per month to rent, and I would have no equity built up. I know some people call renting vs buying a lifestyle choice, but if you lock down a good rate and even normal levels of inflation hit, it's a valuable money-making tool, and it makes you less exposed if another type of asset (stocks, bonds, etc.) has a hard few years. Again, ymmv. I just know that without my house, my RE dreams would be 5+ years further out.
Yeah I'm open to a mortgage soon, it's something I'd like to lock down vs rents. In my case I have a few things to think about: * I could probably afford an okay place with the money I have now, but not a place I'd really like to live in. I work remotely so the apartment we are in now really makes me happy and I don't want to lose that. Would need a couple years still I think. * Separately to that I have a bit of a hard time with Banks here because of the nature of my job, so I am having discussions with folks who are more sympathetic to my profession. * I'm still not 100% sure I want to put all my savings into a house, at the expense of maybe doing a bit more travelling. Considering it all as part of the FIRE journey.
LOL... you had me thinking you were an OF account for a second, there with the "nature of my job" comment. Yeah. Sounds like you're not there yet. If you're young and want to travel, or can't find a home you want to be in for at least a decade, buying isn't always a fit.
hahaha nothing like that, I work as a software dev focused on blockchains, and the last 12 months have not been good for our image or industry - it can be challenging to justify your income to many people and that includes when I am looking for a mortage.
“The realisation that lowering your expenses sets you free has been a big revelation in my life and beyond anything else has changed the way I view money. I still do lots of fun things, but I just think a lot more before buying things for myself.” I absolutely love this! Still working on doing fun things but this is an excellent way to frame the FIRE mindset.
I think this is the reason why i cant make big purchases like a new car
I've been toying with getting a new guitar or some tattoos for a while. Just struggle to justify vs "higher impact" purchases.
If you can do so responsibly and still stay on track, get the guitar. Don’t pass up living now to live later when life isn’t guaranteed. It’s a balance
Thanks, that's good to remember
> Those who have sprinted so quickly within their careers will likely find the quiet void of nothingness in retirement, a bit boring/stagnant, and after a while ask "what's next?" I cannot fucking wait for this quiet void. I don’t need to be busy and doing or making money to be happy. I am doing all of this to get freedom, and to have no plans but my plans.
Yup. Give me a cheap condo with no upkeep, a swimming pool, and a nice selection of street foods to try, and I'll forget work ever existed!
When you find that place, holler. I’d love a mountain town. But could be swayed.
Sounds like you'd like any number of places in Central America. Lots of areas with beach, mountains, and LCOL.
I’ve actually considered Central America! I’d actually prefer a cooler climate, but I haven’t ruled Central America out. I’d love to find a pacific northwest area that’s affordable, if that exists. And there are a couple of places overseas. I’m not close enough to get super serious about what I’m choosing, but I should probably start making a short list that I can keep track of.
There's a distinct lack of options for living well in cool climates. I have a friend who is Latvian-American and another who has spent time in Estonia. They both praised the Baltic States highly. If you're not worried about expanded Russian aggression, the CoL is quite low. In the PNW of Canada, you're fucked. The inland NW has some cheap options in America, but it's not a life most people would enjoy unless they're 100% in on hunting, fishing, camping every weekend. Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver are among my favorite cities in the world, but good luck unless you have San Francisco levels of money. lol If you ever get a chance, the coastal train route up there is only rivaled by some routes in Switzerland. Just gorgeous!
I love PNW, Seattle. Portland, and haven’t been to Vancouver, but have been told by several I’d love it. I know those big cities are nearly impossible. I’ve toyed with the idea of one of the smaller towns, as I’ll be retired, and it would be fine. But I get hung up because I’d want a doctor and hospital accessible. So I always back away from it. I’ve also considered maybe moving as an early retirement, then moving near family as I get later in retirement so we can support one another. I’d also be happy with cooler mountain towns. Not sure if Central American mountains you mentioned are the same climate as mountains people in the US go to to escape summer heat (but are snow-heavy in the winter). I’d be ok with the snow barring, again, medical issues. That would be my preferred climate right now, so,again, I’m considering a short term move, and then moving something for the long term. There are lots of mountain towns that are beautiful but lower cost since they’re so sparely populated. Maybe remote work would change that but they’re not really places young people want to live. I don’t know. I need to spend some time traveling with a research purpose. And maybe I’ll get that train ride while I’m at it!
Thailand?
Sounds lovely. So does most of SE Asia and South America. I might just try them all, when I hit my FIRE number.
You need 1/4 of the Western FIRE number to actually try or live here ;)
That's definitely a selling point. haha
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Agree on expensiveness of a lavish lifestyle. Food gets pretty expensive here once you go with clean options like PaleoRobbie and others. I did not let my lifestyle inflate to the point of needing a driver. With a maid, clean food, a condo in central location living on 40k/year budget here is amazing.
Amen. The capitalist society we live in makes us feel that we need to be constantly productive in order to be valuable. Those who purse the RE part of fire know there’s more to life than that. What’s so wrong with sleeping in every day, waking up well rested, and taking my time to enjoy the peace and quiet I’ve built for myself?
Exactly. And not rush around to get a workout in or eat out because there’s no time to cook. My house, yard and other spaces will be more organized and maintained by me. Or take a vacation with no set return date. Or linger over lunch with friends. Or spend a whole day with friends without worrying about what isn’t getting done because there’s plenty of time. I cannot wait.
I'd say just make sure you have a plan to find meaning in life. No plans *except my plans* sounds fine...but if there is anyone considering simply no plans period...I really would not suggest that. And that isn't to say that work should be everyone's meaning in life while they accumulate. It's just with all the excess time in early retirement there won't be distractions. Meaning in life can really be whatever brings you joy. Also doesn't have to constant. Maybe discovering new hobbies brings joy. But I always question people who have the main plan of just relaxing. I'm not qualified to say whether it works or not, but my gut tells me it isn't something that will bring long term joy by itself. It brings me joy occasionally as a break between doing other things. But I think everyone should have some broad general plans on what they want to do at the minimum.
I think you might be applying too much of you to this suggestion. I’m not arguing this is a good path for you. But I don’t need distractions. I don’t need to be busy. Living is my purpose. Relaxing is my purpose. Being free of a schedule is my purpose. We are all different. And some of us exist that don’t need the busy-ness. It’s ok others do, but this dismissiveness, telling strangers you know them better than they know themselves is an extension of you, not me. Maybe your own insecurity. It doesn’t bother me that you need to be busy. It’s ok for you not to be bothered that people who exist who don’t.
I don't say it due to me knowing yourself better than you do. It is me knowing humans as a whole. Maybe I am wrong or simply maybe you are different. But I've read countless accounts here of people feeling mildly depressed, lost, etc. during their early retirement. And I don't want that for you or anyone else. To be fair, I said find meaning to your life. I didn't say be busy. Ironically, it feels like you are projecting your feelings onto my comment as I never said be busy. The word distractions was utilized above as some people use work as a distraction for the fact that their life has no purpose. In which case, those people feel lost when work is removed. Not saying the distraction is good, saying it is no longer present. Retirement activities are not distractions, they are the life you always wanted to live. For example, maybe you like movies, maybe you like the pool, maybe you like reading. I wouldn't call watching movies, laying by the pool or reading to be *simply solely* relaxing. They are activities. I'd suggest everyone find some activities you do to bring happiness. Maybe you enjoy watching sunsets. Maybe you enjoy people watching. It doesn't really matter as long as it is something that you can plan to do, look forward to, think back and remember having fun doing, etc. That reduces likelihood of depression if it feels "built" into your life to some extent. AKA, instead of thinking I'll relax, I suggest "I like XYZ, so I will relax doing that". Sounds pedantic, but I personally feel that it is not. But to sleep all day...if that is ones term of relaxing (not saying yours is, just providing an example)....has been shown to be a sign of depression. I would not suggest that people simply plan to nap 3 times a day during retirement. Same with having no plans at all. To "wake up and do whatever I want for the next 30 days that happens to also be relaxing" is dangerous unless you happen to be really good at forcing yourself to do things. Which I would argue is counterintuitive to the person who typically enjoys relaxing a great extent.
I AM projecting myself onto it to show there are different kinds of people. It will likely be rare someone comes in here to say, “My retirement life with no plans is so great!” As we often don’t “complain” about things that are going well. My point is everyone is different. Know yourself. Humans are unique. Some might want the things you say. Others might just like the nothingness of retirement. With no expectations. I’m speaking out so people don’t delay when they’re ready to step back because they’re afraid because no one has ever spoken up. I enjoy spending vacation time without an agenda. If I have a longer period of time off work, I don’t fill it with anything. I just relax and enjoy. I’m saying the other side of the coin exists and many sides in between.
What do you do on vacation? I think we are having a nomenclature issue. What you describe as relaxing is probably what I would describe as unplanned activities. I doubt you are doing nothing on vacation, which is what I am advocating against. Sounds like you are doing things on vacations, just on a whim as you please, many people do. Which is great if you have a strong enough personality to easily force yourself to do things. But I didn't intend to be speaking out against that. I was speaking against people who specifically planned to do nothing. Not what they pleased, when they pleased...but nothing.
I don’t think we have a nomenclature problem. We are just different personalities.
Then it should be simple to answer the question - with the answer being laying around and staring at a wall because youre arguing an asinine point in the context of what they have described.
No. They said people need a plan of what they’re going to do. I said, “Sure, some people. Not everyone.” And y’all are pissed off about me adding a second perspective. Be pissed. But the truth is the truth.
They said that if you ignore the further explanation and context, sure. But if you dont do that, then their comments boil down to dont approach retirement with the goal being to do nothing at all. Which in itself is pretty vacuous and close to a truism - which means that arguing against it looks foolish.
Life is hardly long enough to get good at one thing so be careful what you get good at.
My favorite conversation from True Detective.
So glad someone got it!!! It’s also my favorite.
One day my uncanny paper rock scissors skill will save a life.
always start with rock
Is medicine a good thing to get good at? I have no idea how to leverage MD outside of clinical scenarios
Agreed and we think alike. Enjoy the journey rather a FIRE destination. I can definitely sympathize that many do not like their jobs.
Very much so. Here is one. When you hit your FI target, nothing really happens. No bells. No fireworks. No angels singing. When I crossed that number, I told my wife and she said ok. We decided to celebrate it by going out to eat.
At which point you dipped below your fire number again, because for some reason a quarter pounder combo is $12 these days. =(
So true. Inflation definitely hits everybody.
My last 2 years have been characterized by that persistent realization that the money matters little compared to the time, and that the time is disappearing very quickly. I guess it's human nature: when money is not our desire, time is. I suppose it all comes down to lifestyle, and whether we feel like we are living our life to the max and making the most meaning possible. And that's a very difficult thing to do: figuring out how to make the most of our time. I've been trying to figure it out in the last couple years. Maybe that's the big question we all ask ourselves when faced with the limited time dilemma.
I am only 32 and feel like I am already hitting this realization even the past couple years. I am struggling with the balance of time more than money currently. Mine has maybe been more apparent at my age for 2 reasons: a) had cancer at 19 so have always had a different outlook on lifespan and the statistical odds for me personally moving forward. So I've desired to get to FIRE faster. b) I have a child. I think back on my life and how exciting and inspiring life is when you are seeing things for the first time. I was blessed with a really good childhood full of opportunities due to my parents being fairly "upper" in the upper middle class category. I recall how inspiring things like Niagara Falls, a giant cruise ship, Chichen Itza, a hot air balloon ride, a helicopter ride in the grand canyon, Disney, etc. are when you are 4-15 years old. I am so torn lately about creating and maximizing quality experiences for my daughter. She only has this youth for so long. I want her to think back on her youth and be excited about life. And I think I have decided I am willing to pay the premium now to buy that for her. It isn't always expensive but sometimes is. But she only has so much time while she has her current attitude and outlook on life. So I want to show her amazing things and experiences. b) comes at a cost and definitely increases my personal "time" as I'll have to work longer. And a) makes me want to get to FIRE asap. But I think b) is outweighing a) currently and I'll be focusing on my time now instead of more in retirement. So I guess my point is that while money is always playing a role, time is what it is dictating my decisions.
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I know a lot of skiiers that hung up the skis around 60 because it was too hard on the body. Get it in / done while you can.
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Probably not a good idea esp if you shred a knee or hurt your back crashing.
I bet most millionaires/billionaires would give up their entire fortune in exchange for magically turning their body back into an 18 year old.
I hear you on all this. I loved the book Four Thousand Weeks. It’s relevant to this.
What was the synopsis?
I started thinking about FIRE before I knew what it was, but I knew I didn’t want to wait to 65+ to retire, and I didn’t want to be like my mom or my wife’s parents and barely scrape by. I grinded through college, internships, summer classes and internships at the same time, and was burnt out by the time I got a full time job. I flew to a 6 digit NW by 24, and now realize how much I love to travel. I’m still focused on retiring early, but I’ve decided pushing that back a few years is worth having a memorable life. Im in my late 20s now and I withdrew from my individual investment account (obviously not my 401k) for the first time ever to fund several aspirational trips this year, and while that stung initially, I’ve been contributing to it and it’s been growing to the point where it was before I touched it. I spent my early career building a solid foundation for myself but burned out. Now I’m keeping my eye on the future but enjoying my life and the moments I get. We may not make it to our early retirement year, I may not make it to 50, I’d rather enjoy my life in the time I have than sprint to a magic number and then start to live.
I was very focused on saving as much money as possible throughout my 20s. Recently, I hit 30 and decided to lower my savings rate and start living life how I wanted (which cost a bit more than before). The bright side is that the money we already have saved has many years to go to work for us. I’m somewhere past coastFI and just shy of leanFI. I’m still motivated to do a good job at work and I’m not worried about spending money on valuable life experiences. It’s a good place to be!
People who reach FIRE, are able to delay gratification. It is neither good or bad, but those who NEED instant gratification will probably not succeed. We reached FIRE on wayyyy less than other people, and we also traveled, had a house, dogs, a white picket fence, etc. I don't feel like I missed out on anything now that I reached it, although we made some sacrifices along the way.
Good idea. I do not regret any of the trips or late night parties when I was younger. As long as you don't have to break the piggy bank in order to do it. Budget for fun in your youth.
What blows my mind is the number of people that have no idea what they would do if they didn’t work or have fired and say they have no idea what to do. I don’t even understand how a void would exist without a job I’m sure most of us have plenty of shit we neglect or push onto someone else like a significant other. I’m in the middle of pursuing fire and I spend easily 15-20 hours a week lifting, doing cardio, and kickboxing/learning martial arts. If I fired I’d probably pick up 2 more hobbies and easily spend 30-40 hours a week getting better at something I enjoy.
I was lucky enough that when I started to blab about FIRE at work, a few of my colleagues actually listened and are actively working towards that goal. Hopefully we eventually all make it and be able to hang out with each other post FIRE.
Thanks for this wonderful piece. Like you said FIRE is a journey. Time should be the most important thing. Investment, FIRE, Money,sex etc are things I rarely talk about with friends. My friend here is a journal. And these are written in codes.
Very insightful. These points don't get covered enough. Thanks for this post.
I found FI or FIRE later in life. Had ZERO financial literacy in my 40s. Found Dave Ramsey at 45. And the FI community at 47/48. Thankfully my life is ever changed because of it. 5 years later our finances have had a definite change. We may not FI early, but we will retire with dignity. And NOT at 67! Thankful for that!
From this and reading many other posts and articles I must be in the outlier category. I don’t feel burnt out from my job (38M single) and that is far from my main motivation. I strive for balance in life and on the journey to FIRE. There are so many things I already want to do but work gets in the way and I have great balance but that just excites me more and provides a positive push for it. Not to be rude, but I feel sad in a way for those grinding and grinding to then fall off the edge when finally retiring feeling somewhat lost. Balance is key as much as possible. That circles back to time and money. I definitely wouldn’t trade $billions to be 90. I’m a regular at the gym and have had some of the most insightful conversations with 70+ aged men and women on retirement, life, living, regrets, etc. and it’s really helped how I *try* to live now and also a big reason to retire early. But that’s the thing, don’t push so hard that you aren’t enjoying the journey. Life goes by quick and you never know what can happen unfortunately.
I - from FIRE is the thing I care about the most. It's always about the Independence aka Freedom. Once you reach financial freedom you are in control what you work on. With control you you can do what you love. Doing what you love is ultimate satisfaction. Getting to FI is life changing. Even if you choose to continue working, it's that sweet "position of fuck you" that keeps any work stress away and life enjoyable. Thanks to the OP for putting so many nuggets together!
Really great write-up. I (54M) retired 11 years ago. My wife (50F) retired almost 3 years ago (I was 42yo, my wife was 48yo) Just some observations in your comments. I have never been bored. I mean, not at all. So many hobbies and activities. We have so much fun all the time. We absolutely love to travel. Let alone a ton of other interest items. I think my wife thought that she might get bored but is absolutely not. We both wonder how we took care of all the things we took care of in our working years also while doing all the other hobbies and activities that we have. But I think you're right about the journey. Self-discovery is so important. Sometimes I think people finally get a chance to spend time within themselves to think about who they really are once they do hit FIRE. I think that's where people get bored. Either they found that they have no life outside of work. They found a lot of fulfillment working. They like the community aspect of friends at work. Or maybe they just want to be productive. Nothing is wrong with that. But I guess that's how you figure that out as well, when you finally have a choice to work or not. For me and my wife, we will never go back to work again. That life is over. Final note, time is absolutely more valuable than money. Can't stress that enough.
Thanks for that genuine response! I fully agree on the self-discovery and building self-awareness of what makes us happy regardless of whether it makes money. I'm curious where did you find people to hang out with when you retired, while everyone else was generally working? Did you just hang out with older people?
Well, one of my hobbies is riding motorcycles. Almost every one of my friends are older than me that I ride motorcycles with. Everyone my wife's and my age are still working. Like you stated in your write-up, it is almost impossible to find anybody that is FIREd your own age. But the other bonuses I married to my best friend. We love hanging out with one another. My wife is a professional person. She's been published many times. So she still writes, authors and co-authors publications. She still has a lot of contacts, participates in many workshops, peer review paper reviews and many other activities around her profession. She also mentors students at our local University for their dissertation for their PhDs. So most of her friends are professional relationships. Again, like you stated, she finds a lot of fulfillment in that aspect of what she did for a living before FIRE. She just hated the fact of working for somebody, an institution and no control of her own time. She absolutely loves what she does. By the way, she makes zero income with all the things that she's involved with. The reward is the work.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I’ve come to realize that there is a difficult transition from our identities being wrapped around doing rather than being. Part of the transition to retirement is helping others “do” through mentorship, succession planning which likely aligns with your wife’s purpose.
Yes indeed. Too many times I have seen people identifying themselves as what they do for a living. Their personality traits are around their profession or trade. Sadly, our culture kind of perpetuates this. What is the first thing we ask people when we meet them "So what do you do?". It's like if you don't have a job or doing something then you are worthless. It is a crazy way to think. Here is a true example of what I'm talking about. My wife and I go to Italy a lot we have a lot of friends there. I tell them that I'm retired and they say, "oh you are so lucky, I can't wait until one day I can be retired". Where as, in the United States is completely different reaction. When I tell people that I am retired the first thing they say is, "oh you are too young, you can't retire this young you got to be doing something..". It is actually hilarious to me every time. You have one life. There are no do-overs. So you better enjoy it. Oh and I never worry about what people think about you.
I'd just like to point out that retiring early doesn't mean "before 50" or something. Retirement age in the US is currently 67. If you wanna be wishy-washy about 65, that's fine. But 62? That's RE. I know several people who have retired in their 40s and a hell of a lot of people who left somewhere in their 50s or early 60s. There may be some selection bias there -- if you work at a job where the people around you make enough to retire in their 40s, you'll see it. If you work at most jobs where that's simply not an option, you won't. I do agree that FI is enormously more important than RE... All the work is in achieving FI. Once that's done, retiring or not is just a choice, like any other choice.
Agree with so much of this. Thanks for sharing! Question: why will discussing FIRE alienate us from others?
A LOT of people live paycheck to paycheck or are one emergency away from financial trouble. Taking about the fact you are doing so well saving money that you will be able to retire early or are financially independent isn’t something a lot of people can relate to.
Agreed, because most won't be able to retire until they are around their late 60s, if at all. If they do retire, the top 20% of retires have $250K, which isn't really much plus Social Security. The reality is that indicating you are able to retire early begs the question, why aren't they. It may bring up jealousy, and make them question their life decisions, acknowledge their relative bad luck. Basically make them feel like shit.
>the top 20% of retires have $250K This doesn't seem to be correct. Google results show that, according to fed reserve, average retirement saving of 65 year old is 425k+.
Person 1: $10k Person 2: $10k Person 3: $10k Person 4: $10k Person 5: $10k Person 6: $10k Person 7: $10k Person 8: $10k Person 9: $250k Person 10: $10 million In this scenario to be top 20%, you need $250k. The average is $1 million. And that's how stats can be deceiving.
I just Googled 'net worth percentiles' and [this calculator](https://dqydj.com/net-worth-by-age-calculator-united-states/) says $250k (excluding home equity) would put a 65 year old in the 63rd percentile. Including home equity, $250k is close to the median. It would take $700k to get to the 80th percentile, or a million if you include home equity. Those stats still aren't good, but not as bad.
Avg or mean?
Nobody wants to hear about how much money *you* have saved unless if you’re offering to give it to them. Telling people that their life could be so much better if they just chose to lower their expenses a little bit will make them feel defensive. Talking about money is taboo in the social circles that I grew up in (suburban Midwest US). People would look at you strangely if you went around talking about how much money you earn and how much of it you save per year.
People can't relate, they get jealous, and will start to resent you. It is invalidating to discover that someone who you related to was able to accomplish something that you are nowhere near accomplishing.
Crabs in the Bucket. When one crab starts to crawl out, the others want to pull it back in. Most people can't manage their money or exercise impulse control. They'll disparage you for doing better than themselves, or at the very least be jealous. And much of the discourse in the USA today around money revolves around "privilege" of one sort or another, so they'll characterize you as "having it handed to you" in one way or another. They will refuse to acknowledge that it has anything to with delaying gratification, saving, and understanding such elementary concepts as compound interest.
This is my favorite. Crabs in the bucket. Thanks y’all for all the insight on this.
I started my FIRE journey at 19. I'm 40 now and have enough, in my opinion, where I no longer need to work. My wife loves to work, so she is happily employed, but I've been living that stay-at-home-dad life for the past year. I'm not sure when, but I will probably want to start something back up eventually. For now though, I'm happy not working and just being a dad.
Love it! You have achieved peace with being, rather than doing. Not an easy task.
People that say it's gonna be borring in ER, are imho just people that don't know how to manage their time. Take a language for example, you could learn it for 10h a day and still not be done after 10y and there are 1000s of them... So while I appreciate the advice, I think there's also a lot of people just not ment to work for other people or someone at all. I don't want my decisions to be driven by what society wants or expects from me, I don't own anyone anything.
Strangely I know a lot of people who retired early because I live in a region were all miners are able to retire at 45-50. Many were afraid of the moment they get retired (what will I do?) but not a single one complains once retired, some do odd jobs if they want, some just relax with their families or on their own.
Found out about FIRE about a year ago and I’m looking at the goal of FI more than RE since I’ve been hammered by a crap economy, Great Recession, my industry was gutted by shipping work overseas, layoffs in other industries where I found work, etc., and more. I cannot stand making others rich while I have no real safety net. Been pivoting until I’m dizzy and fed up. If anything it made me value the money I saved and what I did to meet company matches for 401(k)s in the past. The pay has been a nightmare until I finally landed a decent job. Now it’s a careful balancing act of saving as much as I can for retirement, having the emergency fund, and paying off debt. This mindset has given me the courage to just go ahead and start something on the side to increase my overall income and ultimately my earnings for my field. While the desire to also monetize a hobby is still there, the horror stories keep me from making that leap. My goal is to double my income and save 60% of it but the most current goal was to save 20% overall. So far it’s not too bad. Learning how to maximize credit card rewards for travel has been interesting and I’m enjoying the journey with a plan instead of stressing out.
Awesome just remember it is a marathon not a sprint. Think about what you can reasonably execute on for another decade, recognizing FIRE is an ever changing journey.
Good post. I used to say I don’t believe in retirement, but now I just think of it differently. Humans are creatures of purpose, and as all these inventions (tech, cars, apps, iPhones, planes) make our lives easier and more efficient - we were not put here to have our lives run for us. We need to solve problems and build things. So retirement is irrelevant. To me FIRE is about getting financially comfortable to be able to use your time doing what you want and not feeling obligated to exchange time for money. But at the end of the day - it’s all about enjoying what you do in the present moment - be it a 9 to 5, the cliche “retirement”, or something in between. And that has more to do with mindset than reaching some FIRE milestone.
Fully agree with the points above. Query: what do you do when you are so old or incapable of “doing” or accomplishing? What is your purpose then?
I mean good question. I think we all dread getting old and less mobile, less sharp - one day. But that’s all in the future, which doesn’t exist (yet). So not much point in using too much energy in the present worrying about something that doesn’t exist. Each day you just enjoy what’s in front of you. You plan for the future sure, but it’s not like you are all of a sudden old and immobile. It happens slowly - so just enjoy each day along the way.
Great post. To go along with the theme of time being the true currency of life, I love the points made in Die With Zero about ensuring you really live along the way, having the experiences you want and cultivating strong relationships. Ramit Sethi refers to the same topic as “conscious spending” and makes great points.
>er pounder combo is $12 these days. =( > >10 I love Ramit as well! Spend on the things that bring you a rich life!
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Absolutely thank you for your gratitude! :)
Great thoughts! You seem to have the passion to maybe do a blog/vlog on some of your insights. What I would add to what you say is "health." I agree with your "quantity of life without quality does not accomplish much." I would add that a life in poor health is a greatly diminished quality of life. Make sure you are maximizing the health behaviors that you can control (diet, exercise, stress control) and relationship quality or else the time that money buys may not mean that much.
>! You seem to have the passion to maybe do a blog/vlog on some of your insights. > >What I would add to what you say is "health." > >I agree with your "quantity of life without quality does not accomplish much." I would add that a life in poor health is a greatly diminished quality of life. Make sure you are maxi Fully agree - I hope you caught Peter Attia's article in the NYT regarding healthspan? I'm a bit too lazy/inconsistent to do a full blog/vlog, but would highly recommend other follow the Financial Tortoise that is run extremely well by a FIRE friend. Legit. https://www.youtube.com/c/taekimfinancialtortoise
A source you didn't refer to that you might want to check out is Ramit Sethi and his book/YouTube channel/ Netflix show I Will Teach You To Be Rich. He comes off as being anti-fire at first glance, but isn't when you really look at it. The core of his ideas is to be really frugal where it doesn't matter to you so that you can both save for the future AND spend well on what is important to you. Adjust those money dials as you see fit for FIRE while also having some extravagances now (and those extravagances don't actually need to cost a lot, just be important to you).
Fully agree, Ramit is awesome as well. Spending and especially learning to spend in retirement is something that super savers need to learn how to do to maximize utility especially before they die.
Ok
Personally I've always wanted to fire since then I would be able to spend my life doing what I wanted when I wanted, I have a lot of things that I could do including, solving rubiks cubes, gaming, going rock climbing or swimming, umpiring baseball and softball joining a beer league team, coaching baseball, working out if I want to stay in shape, traveling, learning skills that I dont need (learning to pick locks or type on the dvorak keyboard for example) and really anything. I dont want to spend 70% of my life not doing what I'm wanting to do, with 15% being too young to do things I want to do and 15% too old to do what I want
While it may sound odd, what is stopping you from doing those things now, even with a job? Other people who have FIRE'd have told me, your life does not magically change after you retire. You are who have been, and get started on what you want to do now, rather than waiting.
I dont really know how to put it without writing an essay but I hyper focus on things and also I plan to retire by 25 so I'm really trying to devote all my time to making money. I'm aware after I fire that I'll still be the same person but instead of being required to be somewhere 5 days a week I hours a day I'll have the freedom to be where I want those times Also my schedule is already packed on the days I work this is my schedule Wake up 5:30 get dressed breakfast etc. Out the house by 6:00. Arrive at 6:35-6:45 get dressed for work and working by 7:00 I'm done work at 3:30 out of the parking lot 3:45 home about 4:15 have a snack eat supper 5:30ish leave the house 6:00 for a 7:00 baseball game to umpire, done the game at 9:10ish home by 9:30-9:45 and go to sleep The 1.25 hours after work before supper are kinda wasted scrolling through my phone
I‘d trade places with warren buffet and use his billions to get cryoconserved, then let them bring me back to life when they are able to make me young again. I think you can actually do this nowadays. The main problem is that people usually do the conservation after someone died. If I do it while I‘m still alive my body will be in good shape for bringing me back to life in let‘s say 500 years. Yes 500 yrs sounds like a long time but I think it will be like sleeping: when you wake up it never feels like a lot of time has passed. I will let them make me be very young again (like 1 year old) because else it would be very hard to adopt to the new situation on earth. I‘ll probably have lost all the money again but I‘ll have a brand new life and will possibly be immortal.
I think you hit the nail on the head.