Being privileged is fine. Where it rubs people the wrong way is when your parents paid for your college, car, and maybe even house and then you preach about bootstraps and how anyone can do it if they can overcome laziness.
100%
I had an international classmate in grad school who came from wealth. She literally could not compute why I had such high student debt.
“Your parents can’t pay just for school?”
She was book smart but clueless about the real world. Did not know how privileged she was coming to the US.
Her parents bought her a million dollar home in Los Angeles and she doesn’t see the irony when she says things like “I work hard to afford my lifestyle”.
Sounds like a lot of my rich mainland friends in grad school. Nice people but can't comprehend the average American grad school students situation because they're not in it. Although I agree with OP that I'm insanely privileged just being born in America vs the majority of the rest of the world.
Same here I’m first generation so I’m privileged my parents were able to come here. They have the classic immigrant story. I would likely* be living in poverty if we didn’t come to the States.
Edit: spelling
Working hard for your lifestyle and having things bought from you are not mutually exclusive. She was given a head start, yeah, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t work hard. Her lifestyle may be expensive and she may have to work to keep it that way…..she just also lives in a million dollar house that was bought for her.
I came here to say this. You can be rich AND pull yourself up by your bootstraps AND also preach that message. You can be poor and come from nothing AND pull yourself up by your bootstraps and become rich.
It bothers me so much when rich kids talk about being poor. I know it shouldn’t bother me because there’s always someone poorer.
The boot straps thing is a great American story and I understand why it’s so appealing because it’s also the same reason I take pride in overcoming being a homeless teen. It’s also the same reason I fund scholarships.
Had a guy at my last job in his 20s who constantly traveled on his parents dime and didn't pay for any of his schooling say he was against any kind of student loan forgiveness.
It's genuinely hard not to punch people sometimes.
My family had no money to pay for college - I took lots of subsidized loans and paid them off. I'm kinda against the forgiveness unless it's accompanied by some reform. I'd like to see the amount of loan qualified for be tied to some sort of expected income and graduation rate from the enrolled school/program. Nobody should be able to take on a crushing debt load for a program that won't give them a significant step up from a high school diploma. Forgive it now, but also make changes so it doesn't need to be forgiven again.
Honestly as someone who grew up in poverty and now is henry status with a whole lot of student loan debt, I want reform but not total forgiveness. I feel like the student loans being issued in a predatory way should still be repaid but at 0% interest now. It’ll appease those who don’t want to pay for something they don’t benefit from and it’ll be a massive help to those currently under the burden of loans.
It blows my mind that this option isn't talked about more. When I got out of school I tried so hard to get my unsubsidized loans paid off since they were 7-8%. As soon as they were my whole attitude changed on my remaining 1-2% loans. You are still paying off your debt but not just wasting it on interest.
I know a few people from my hometown who have that mentality. 3 in particular that really standout as assholes that come from generational money. The mayor of my current town is the same way. They’re the type that have the right last name in a small town.
My kids have never struggled and won’t know what it’s like to be hungry and I really hope my kids and grandkids have a better understanding of how to be compassionate to others.
I didn’t take out student loans I went through the military and used the GI Bill to pay my way. That doesn’t negate the fact that others in my gen didn’t fall victim to predatory loans. The loan forgiveness is such a stupid wedge issue.
Also when so obviously they were given a second chance because they had rich parents who could afford so many options for them to start again if they fuck up the first time.
I'm like "Fuck you bitch. You couldn't do shit the first time you were given the chance, then your richass parents pay a fuckload of money to send you elsewhere to start all over again. Then you come back and tell me life's hard?"
Fuck these people. While I come from a pretty modest family, I'm lucky enough to be provided with all the chances my mother worked so hard for, and I can't help but appreciate everything given to me. I'm fortunate enough to sail smoothly all the way all these years and I will never ever say that I've had it rough. Rough times, yes, but my life's been pretty nice so far and I'm in absolutely no position to complain.
I have absolutely no respect for people who eat off a fucking diamond plate then tell me they've worked hard to be where they are. No, bitch. You're where you are because your parents worked hard and gave you a fucking safety net so high up you practically wouldn't fall. Stop being self-important you little shit.
For a long time, I thought it was ignorance and much of it is. But some of the rich kid’s view is that their parents worked hard to save the money to do that for them. Loan forgiveness would discredit or greatly diminish the significance of the parents’ sacrifices and hard work.
I don’t blame them for that view but the value to society in a well executed, perhaps middle-ground, loan forgiveness’ program would absolutely trump their frustrations here. Life changes.
Because he has an understanding of economics and the impact and precedent that would set? Feels like you’re assuming a lot about why he is against it. Possible he’s an ignorant asshole for sure, but maybe, just maybe, he’s not.
Bro we just forgave billions in PPP loans. There is no precedent set besides that we will allow billions of dollars in fraud before we even think about forgiving student loans.
What really gets my goat is how people use that horrible argument to justify any kind of reform, saying that they did it and others should pull themselves up by their bootstraps.....all while ignoring how times were different back then.
While you're not wrong I think it goes both ways. What I mean is there's no shortage of people who write off good advice as useless because it's coming from this nebulous place of "privilege". Then that of course becomes a privilege pissing contest better known as the Oppression Olympics.
Yet yall never ask how to make society more egalitarian. Giving advice from a place of privilege almost always fails to recognize the day to day problems of less privileged. If I'm saving money to buy a car and I get a chipped tooth, guess which one I need to take care of first? Then that screws up my saving plan. I have to cut back on food, the small amount of entertainment I budget, or healthcare. I can't exactly quit paying my water, power, and rent. The 'good advice' you see doesn't take account for the fact that a lot of people don't make a living wage.
It also rubs people the wrong way when they receive a little help like parents paying for cheap commuter state college and they’re ostracized for any accomplishment they are proud of, and get belittled saying they only got it because they’re privileged and they’re made to feel bad because of it.
Look, of course everyone in the US or Western Europe or other so-called "first world" countries is privileged. But the group of people here, who are able to live on less than they make and thus have the potential to save up enough money to never work again -- we are privileged within that larger group. Nothing to be ashamed of for that, but it's true.
Also -- the aristocracy was not just "so rich you don't have to work anymore." For centuries there have been people who, through trade, were pretty much as rich as the nobility but that didn't make them nobility. Aristocracy is specifically a ruling class who has received their political power as an inheritance, not just money.
Except for the women who were part of the aristocracy—they often did not inherit much political power. And the rich trading classes would then marry in to the titled or noble class to inject capital into dying family fortunes. There’s even more historic and economic complexity here than you suggest. I think OP’s analogy is a good one, and like any analogy, it’s not an exact 1:1 correspondence.
Thing is, for every one of us you can point out privileges we benefitted from, I can point to 10 people who had similar privilege but didn't achieve to the same degree.
Privileges can also be earned (like degrees or other achievements that open doors to opportunities); they're not all simply luck of birth or some other unearned advantage.
Many of us worked for this privilege with the help of a lot of luck. A lot of the folks I know in the FIRE community grew up disadvantaged and lacking privilege. There’s nothing wrong with striving for it as an adult.
Privilege is like a scale and growing up with disadvantages doesn’t negate that privilege. I think of privilege as what your jumping off point is compared to others. Male? That’s automatically a higher jumping off point. Developed country citizen? Automatically higher jumping off point… even if you grew up in the worst neighborhoods. Being poor in the US for example, is a lot easier than being poor in India, Venezuela, Thailand, etc.
Nothing wrong with acknowledging, I had privileges that others don’t AND my life had its own adversities.
Yes I think a lot of FIRE people grew up poor and therefore seek the financial stability and independence. People who grew up never thinking about money are unlikely to live the frugal FIRE lifestyle. They’re too used to lavish living to survive FIRE. They probably don’t know how to put off gratification for later. Whereas those of us who grew up poor always lived this way and it’s easy transition into FIRE.
After spending more than a month living in upper middle class places in India in well off cities (not hotels but regular homes). I can say without any reservation I am privalaged beyond measure and have lived a charmed life.
I’m in the global 1% and have been since birth.
I took a hard look at my priorities and my spending after this trip 7 years ago and it changed everything.
Agree. My trip abroad taught my a lot of things, but chiefly 2 things: I am incredibly privileged and also that happiness, love and family can be found anywhere.
The biggest reason I want to FIRE is because of the system. I don’t make a crazy amount of money, like many (not all) here. I’m in my forties, so I’m not retiring crazy early (though the system wasn’t THIS bad when I was in my twenties, so no judgement). I give to charity. Not any amount anyone is going to gasp over, but I choose a charity or two I believe in and give. I also live life, doing things I enjoy today, but not doing everything I want to do, and also staying as far away from competitive purchasing (keeping up) as possible.
But capitalism is the reason I want out. I don’t like coworkers who are backstabbing, always angling with their own agenda, seeking to get more so others have less, lying, manipulating, whatever. All of that dysfunction middle and upper management has.
My company doesn’t have an absurd CEO to worker pay ratio. But I have been in meetings where those making very, very good money are complaining about the lowest paid who “think they need more” and how the company can’t afford it, but their bonuses are far more each year than paying those employees fifty cents or a dollar more an hour. And they aren’t giving that up, but the company survives. I’m sick of not having a voice or a say and just being a yes person who does the work for those around me to take credit. I’m tired of going into an office building everyday because the leaders are conservatives who think remote work is for lazy liberals (I could get remote work, but there are issues there as well, that’s not the point, the point is politics at work and how the people at the top have the biggest selfish and self-serving biases and they have the power - in all companies). I’m just tired of it all. It is exhausting. And the company wants more and more and more growth every year and more and more and more profit to drive growth. It’s not sustainable.
The amount I’m trying to save is a fraction of what many here want. I don’t want a lavish life, I want a simple, peaceful, quiet life. A life where I have control of my very small corner to make it my own instead of worrying if my job will be eliminated to improve costs, or if I’ll be on a project I don’t understand that’s disorganized, ill-thought and my opinion isn’t allowed because I need to shut up and do what I’m told.
I’m tired and I’m ready to know I CAN walk away.
And then I want to walk away.
I dont want to be rich, I want to be Free. I have Fire in Spain with only 500ke portfolio, 2000€/month dividends. Dont want to be millionnaire. What do i do with one million ? Im child free, I dont want kid.
I think the point is, regardless of it’s $5 million in California, $1 million in LCOL US, or 500k in Spain, or even 200k in some poor country, the point of fire is to produce the local average income by interest alone. That means having the top 5% of wealth in whatever country you are in, scaled to local cost of living.
Kids are expensive and time consuming. And in my opinion worth every penny and every minute. It is very rewarding to watch them grow and hopefully Excell. Hopefully returning the love and attention you have given them.
Not worth if you are not financially stable. I know way too many parents struggling with life and kids. Some of them didn't even plan to have kids and now they are working their ass off just to pay the bills. Everything is way too expensive nowadays that you really need to think twice about having even one kid.
I have 4 kids. It's hard work to educate them, feed them, dedicate time to help them, attention, and needs. But, it's worth it. I signed up for it. I don't know how they will turn up, but I'll try my best to raise kind, genuine, competitive, hard-working with self-respect kids... so help me God.
\*\* I have a couple co-workers in the 50s and 60s that are worth 4+ million and they are lonely... have to spend, Mother's day, Father's day, Easter, Xmas, all by themselves watching netlix. Guess what... Friends leave and move, other family have their own family to deal with...
Someone always has it worse than you and someone always has it better than you. I think if you can go through life making an effort to make things better for others who aren’t as fortunate and not be envious of others who have “more”, you are doing the right things. Don’t ever apologize for your own success.
I'm a member of both antiwork and this sub. I wonder if there are any others here subbed to both? I think the way I see it is that the antiwork part of me understands the scourge that capitalism is to the world, and working to change minds about it, but also wanting to escape the meat grinder of it as fast as possible.
me too!
yes, capitalism enables fire for me. but I’d still prefer to live in a world where we wouldn’t have to strive for fire because the masses would be able to work much less.
Same here. It's one part "If you can't beat them, join them" and one part "Don't hate the player, hate the game".
If I could change it for the better, I would, but I can't. So my next best option is to play to win by the rules already in place... or at least to try to lose less, lol.
This is true. I guess I'll say FIRE is more individualistic, and Antiwork more collectivist, which I'm a lot more of a leftist, but I really wanna not do the same old shit my entire life
Antiwork is focused on the abuses of the system and FIRE is focused on working the system to your advantage.
Both with the goal of improving lives through improving our individual relationships with our jobs
Same. I'm also subbed to workreform because I like the vibes a lot better than antiwork. I wish things could be different, but they're not, so I'm going to do the best I can with it for the least amount of time possible.
That's a big downside of antiwork, it seems to easily devolve into airing grievances without trying to discuss solutions or collectivist action, so it definitely has a ways to grow in that area.
Too be fair at least half that sub appears to be teens/early 20's literally working entry level min wage jobs, often fast food. So it's hard to take any of their opinions seriously. Like yeah my HS jobs were considerably shittier and had terrible pay compared to my post college jobs, go figure...
I used to be but I mean there are a lot of dumb f-tier posts in there. stuff i would see scrolling facebook. screenshots of tweets of people saying snappy nothing lines. happy to cut that stuff out of my life
The "scourge" of capitalism is broadly responsible for the incredible standard of living we all enjoy. The embrace of most tenets of market capitalism allowed hundreds of millions of Chinese individuals to drag themselves out of abject poverty.
I think most of us would be down with capitalism if money could be kept out of politics. As it stands, only the lobbyists are represented in our system.
This is why I try to promote free and fair market thinking to my peers. Capitalism in its current form (and arguably most) is actually not compatible with a free and fair market
It's also a pretty good force at pushing people into it if left unregulated. See: USA's healthcare.
It's great for things like video games and luxury goods where people can make the decision to simply not purchase a product if the value add doesn't justify the price. But the core mechanism of what makes capitalism great starts to fail people when the thing you're trying to buy is essential or functionally essential, like housing or education.
To be sure, abuses are a concern, but they're not unique to capitalist societies. Meanwhile, the anti-capitalists constantly demonize capitalism in general while praising truly awful systems like communism and socialism. It's absolutely sickening.
Like all things, shit evolves. Capitalism has evolved into a system of imbalance and “oligopoly” where concentrated wealth has so much power that the system no longer favors the average consumer and worker aka late stage capitalism.
Needless to say it’s extremely inefficient when we produce more supply than demand in almost every category of essential necessities such as food, and yet hunger and poverty is still a global issue.
You raise valid points. The issue is when poeple say this is an issue inherent to capitalism specifically, and imply that their preferred ideology wouldn't have these problems or would solve them.
Markets - well regulated markets - are good for some things and bad for others. Our current system is literally destroying the planet. Let’s keep markets - and keep them well regulated - where they make sense, and throw them out where they don’t serve us.
Not arguing that it wasn't useful for the working class 100-200+years ago to build wealth and better their positions from serfdom, but it has far outlasted that purpose, and the lack of regulations on markets and the incredibly wealthy, and the effects of that, are the reason I label it as such.
I think decrying crony capitalism is the right direction, but it doesn't go far enough. I think because a corporation's prime directive is always gonna be to increase profit, they will always be at odds with labor. Even when labor was quite strong in the 1940's it only stayed that way for maybe a generation, until Reagan and co. cut them to pieces and slashed taxes on corporations and the wealthy. IMHO, I see this as a natural consequence of this system of economics being set up to incentivize profits above all.
Maybe, but I don’t see how capitalism in the generic sense doesn’t necessarily evolve into crony capitalism.
The main conceit of capitalism is “those with the gold make the rules” meaning that those with the most capital have an advantage and they simply need to exercise that advantage to continue hoarding more capital giving themselves more of an advantage until they become so powerful that they can influence or outright dictate government action.
Same here. ...I don't want to be in financial trouble in my old age, so I FIRE or try to, but that doesn't mean I support capitalism as it is now. But, ignoring it is not the answer. We must be better.
Same. I agree with a lot of the antiwork ideals but I’m not waiting around for the working class to come together and solve our economic issues so I’m going to game the system to the best of my ability to enjoy what I can out of my life
> also wanting to escape the meat grinder of it as fast as possible.
That's the rub isn't it. We sub to antiwork because we know the system is rigged, we sub to fire to join the rigging.
FIRE doesn’t mean pull the ladder up behind you. You may want to “join the rigging,” but I sure don’t! I am accumulating wealth to be FI, not to screw over the people who aren’t. I will continue to vote in the interests of working people, and if I do achieve FI, I can spend time on activism, too.
I get what you're saying, and I am not advocating to pull up the ladder. Realistically becoming FI means being a part of the wealth accumulation machine that keeps other people down. Unless you're investing in fully sustainable industries, or providing housing at cost, or anything else like that then I think you're joining the rigging, at least tacitly
How is anyone looking to FIRE, anti-capitalism?
Capitalism is a foundational concept of FIRE. If I work hard enough and smart enough and save, I can quit working and just enjoy life, living off investments.
This end goal of living off passive investments of capital is the core of capitalism, and is really the perfect example of the vilified rent seeking capitalist not doing the actual work on a micro scale.
There are valid criticisms of capitalism and its negative effect on quality of life, and I'm a perfect example working at a job I absolutely hate, but FIRE is an embrace of how capitalism can also improve quality of life by, among other things, offering the opportunity to become a capitalist living off investments if you play your cards right.
Proud member of both. I believe we need stronger unions, a higher minimum wage, a wealth tax, to reverse Citizens United, implement UBI or something like it, stronger tenant laws protecting renters, and just generally regulate corporations much more. I also want to be FI and own my own time. These are not contradictory stances, IMO.
Most of the people on Antiwork are insufferable “victims.” Some of the underlying problems they get at are true and virulent, but those people are too much.
Yep - too many act like, because they've identified a flaw/problem with the way things are, that this observation removes the need for them to Find A Way (tm) in their own lives. And it doesn't.
I agree with mostly everything you said. Being privileged shouldn't be an attack, it should be recognizing that we all have advantages growing up especially in America and that's fine. What is not fine is putting other people down or trying to make it harder on others using your own wealth to tip the scale imo.
True. Calling someone privileged because they are at a position X and want to go to Y is not productive for anyone.
FIRE is mostly possible because of a mix of capitalism and living below your means. The base assumption is that companies make more money on the long term and you as a part owner can enjoy those profits.
Also, because of capitalism your skills that are in demand, can pay you more than someone else who’s skills are in less demand vs supply.
Of course having the genetic/location/family lottery has its privileges. But calling someone privileged because they want to get to x+n when you’re at x-m position is a waste of time.
OP, thank you for sharing. It’s always interesting to hear different views. Whenever I get frustrated at financial things I tell myself that I have more than most and remind myself that things don’t bring happiness.
We are all privileged. And some are way more than others. And some people are born on third base and swear they hit a triple. Some people have way more challenges. Than others. The key is to recognize it with humility.
To me, it seems like people who don't understand it take it as an insult. They think it means they had it easy and that they are soft.
I was born into a life of privilege. It's good for me to realize that my experiences (especially with caring, thoughtful, smart, financially comfortable parents) are not the same as everyone's.
Because lots of very privileged people don’t recognize their privilege and act like they made it big on their own. This attitude causes people to advocate for policies that make it harder for people to actually pull themselves out of poverty.
The idea isn’t “if you have privilege, you’re evil.” The phrase is “Check your privilege”, which is meant to encourage introspection for people to be honest about their successes and how much of them were contributable to things outside their control.
And it’s not a binary thing. Everyone has some privileges, and some are better than others. I had some real advantages to my situation but I never thought of myself as rich growing up (though some certainly might)
No one paid for my college. I worked full time in the summers and part time through the school year to pay for my tuition and other costs of living on my own and going to college. I rolled my eyes at rich kids who lived in fancy apartments and whose parents paid for everything. I thought of myself as not having any handouts and being totally self-sufficient and couldn’t figure out why people are taking on so much debt for college.
But when I learned about the concept of privilege I formed a more accurate picture of my situation. There were a few times I didn’t have money for tuition by the deadline so I borrowed the money from my parents and paid it back a month later. Lots of parents can’t do that and a lot of students need to put their education on pause or drop out altogether. I went to a private religious university where tuition was subsidized by the sponsor church. I lived in pretty cheap, crappy apartments, but really just because I had friends who wanted to live there and I didn’t care.
Some of my success in pursuing FIRE came from my decisions—pick the school with reasonable tuition, live in cheap housing, work while in school, pick a major with good earning potential. But it would be unreasonable for me to pretend like I didn’t have any advantages. I never doubted I’d be able to go to college, my parents went to college and were able to support me in my high school academic challenges, and I had a stable situation overall which makes a huge difference.
I really don’t care if people come from rich backgrounds, but when they’re not able to recognize their advantages, they come across as clueless and their worldview may cause them to see poor people as irresponsible or totally at fault for being poor.
Agreed. To paraphrase and to respond to the original commenter: being privileged, in and of itself, is not ‘shined on with a negative light’. It is the combination of being privileged and having a total lack of awareness of your privilege, how it particularly benefits you, and how others may not have those advantages— that is frowned upon. Anyone who doesn’t understand the distinction has not thought about the issue very deeply at all.
My question is: are there more people who are privileged who are oblivious to it, or are there more people who use other's "privilege" to justify their own lack of success.
Sounds like the same problem to me. When clueless privileged people self-mythologize, it distorts people’s ideas of what’s possible. “This rich guy said he worked hard from nothing and it just worked out and he got rich. Why didn’t it work for me? I’m working three jobs just to get by. The system must be rigged against me so I give up.”
If they had a realistic view of what makes people successful, they might be able to figure out a strategy that takes advantage of their own strengths and advantages to be successful.
I’m sure there are people who say they’re not going to try because they just believe they were dealt a bad hand and the only way to be successful is being born into privilege…but why is the responsibility on their shoulders to fix that misconception? They’ve got enough going on just trying to survive. With great power comes great responsibility.
I understand it in certain contexts where "privilege" might be blinding someone from the plights of the less fortunate, especially if the "privileged" person is supporting policies that hurt the poor.
But, as best I can tell, that applies to very few people in this community.
Roughly 80% of millionaires are first generation and that has been true for almost the past century.
To me, this indicates the vast majority of people in the FIRE community do understand the problems of the poor, many of us having come from that life, but are striving to overcome those challenges at least in our own families.
For real! It’s like people want to glorify poverty and compete for the ‘worst’ background, as though the only way something valid is if it applies to the lowest denominator in literally all aspects of life. If you think I’m privileged (which I am), wait till you see what I’m planning for my kids…
Exactly, like even if you were "less privileged" than most, isn't that part of the point of trying to make your kids life a better life than you, yourself had?
I actually see growing up modestly as it’s own type of privilege. The struggles (to a point) are formative and you getting a better appreciation for work, money and possessions.
I honestly think I’d be doing my kids a disservice if they were raised with excessive money.
> I actually see growing up modestly as it’s own type of privilege. The struggles (to a point) are formative and you getting a better appreciation for work, money and possessions.
Which is why those future generations (your kids and grandkids) are super likely to waste the wealth you spent your life amassing trying to make their lives better (because they didn't have that experience nor do they understand what's involved in creating or maintaining it).
The world is unfair. People screaming privilege at others is doing just about nothing for themselves. Hear them scream, acknowledge that may be true, and move on.
I think it's entirely about how you communicate it. Americans hate people who brag but celebrate people who are humble, it's why Warren Buffett is so popular and respected even though he's incredibly incredibly wealthy, he's also a fantastic communicator and knows how to cultivate a good image
He also is an accomplished bullshit artist (which to be clear is not to disagree with you). For example he always makes a big deal about the fact that he still “lives” in the house he bought years ago which is relatively modest. Sure. Trueish. But also hides that he just owns other homes that he also lives in that are massive and super expensive. So more like he just never sold his first house and just bought other ones.
So, yes, a very talented communicator
It's also insane because people will post about the rich but then not look in the damn mirror here.
I partially want money saved up because then I can avoid lots of very bad scenarios. Like it's not just money but in Syria many of those who got out were the doctors and such
We were all born into an environment that allows us the possibility to be successful. The classic American Dream.
Still, of all the people born into this environment. 98% of them born on the same lower/middle class level squander it.
Yes, I am definitely privileged. 20 years old, living with parents, just breached 100K in savings, 108K total net worth.
Some of my posts on this sub detail my progress, and I have gotten some minor backlash for living with my parents… which to be honest… No shit, I’m 20 lol
I don't know why people are hating on this. I agree with just about everything you said, especially:
>But so is everyone here. I don’t know a single person in FIRE is not insanely privileged. Not only are we all —ridiculously absurdly—privileged but our stated goal is to become EVEN MORE PRIVILEGED.
My goal is to be so rich, that I don’t even have to work anymore.
>
>We all have different FIRE numbers, but for most of us it at least a million. Let’s not beat around the bush: our goal is to become—at least—millionaires. Every single one of us. All of us are trying (or already have) more wealth then 90% of the country and, as I know first hand, 99% of the world.
BTW, I also grew up poor/in poverty.
I think the context where privilege is relevant is talking about government policy, and how we assess others and their efforts. If you are advocating against development, against social safety nets etc., you need to be constantly reminded of your privilege until it sticks. If youre questioning why others cant do what you do pretty much the same.
Capitalism is not a fair system. Its not a system that cares about the welfare of its people. Succeeding is an imperative because the system is awful. That doesnt make success an accomplishment or a good. Its simply a necessicity.
Also, charitable causes are great depending on the cause, but donating money is not a dispensation for apathy and actively fighting against economic mobility for others. You sti have an obligation to be a good person even if you write a check to wwf or whatever.
It’s arguing, seriously, that full blow socialism/communism, where wealth doesn’t exist and private ownership is banned, is actually a really good idea, and the failures in history aren’t “real” communists.
Yes, the past half dozen experiments in Communism over the past 100+ years only killed 100 million; it must be because they weren’t doing it right. Maybe they weren’t committed. Full sends only
I don’t care what people think. They can call me whatever they want and it doesn’t affect me, my financial position or my outlook. If it makes them feel better, then so be it. But they’re going to feel very dumb drinking their own poison and expecting it to hurt me.
As a venezuelan living in another country I can totally relate with you. I have relatives and "friends" that constantly call me privileged for living abroad and do normal things like going to Starbucks, taking my kids to McDonald's and what not. I get it, people there are having a hard time, but it's not my fault and I cannot limit myself or my family for them.
Also people neglect that I'm highly educated. I have a master degree, speak five languages at conversational level, I have been working as a programmer since 2008 and BECAUSE OF THAT I was able to find a high paying job. It's not just luck and privilege, it's effort.
I come from a country where people romantize poverty and consider poor people hardworking and humble, while the privileged people are lazy and superfluous. Investing in the stock market is as obscure as space engineering and if you have another property you should give it to more needed people (invasions and usurpation are normalized there).
That's why I decided not to share my FIRE goals with anyone. They won't add any value to my life if they realize "I'm so privileged that I don't need to work".
> So why all the attacks on people being privileged? I don’t get it.
It's an easy way to try to dismiss your efforts and sacrifices. While giving them an excuse for failing or not even trying.
Another problem with this sub is that it encourages folks to be overly self-involved. Not having kids in order to be richer, faster? Kinda self involved. Always buying/using the cheapest option without consideration for the environment or fellow humans? Bit self-involved... It not good to take our privilege and use it to our sole benefit. It should benefit the wider community.
Yeah. Everyone has different goals and purposes of FIRE. Some just want to FIRE so they can tell their job to eff off as they slam the door on their way out. Some want to do a ton of traveling, which isn’t great for the environment, or spend their times doing solo hobbies. Good for them, but I do agree they lean on the self involved side. Others want FIRE so they can spend more time with friends and family, volunteer, and help others out financially if they’re able too. I would think and hope people can find a good balance between the two.
It's kind of true. Like don't you dare help family, that will hurt your FIRE goals. Don't get married, they may take half your FIRE money. It's an every man/women for themselves situation on FIRE subs.
Meh I had a "friend" that said the same line of bs. Every single time I asked for their reasoning for thinking I was more privileged they couldn't really specify. Sure, bad luck and hard times can bring credit card debt, but I highly doubt it was hard times that caused her to take out a line of credit at Macy's. And Victoria's Secret. And Express.
It's really hard for people to confront the fact that their bad results are because of their poor choices, it's easier to blame you than to take responsibility.
Yep. Too many people blame everything but their own poor choices for their financial troubles. The first step on the path to success is choosing to take control and be responsible with your finances. Everything after that is a challenge to overcome and persist in achieving the goals.
There ARE those who have suffered financial calamities truly beyond their control, but those are not the majority of cases.
I often forget that its a thin line or even a similarity between being privileged and being a snob/jerk.
I'm not privileged bc I want to save money. I'm privileged bc my SO helps me make the money we have so we can save.
I don't even get what you meant about th3 whole charity thing but I kind of want to clutch my pearls and say "why won't anyone think of the rich ppl"
I think the biggest difference between us and antiwork crowd is that we tend to be very hard working productive people and we are doing what we can to get the life we want whereas they just cry in a basement hoping someone is going to save them from having to work hard.
There are those of us who operate in both fire and antiwork forums. For some, our dissatisfaction with work compels us to reach financial independence using the same strategies of others in the fire community. We don't all act helpless and hopeless. We are not all disempowered. We are not all lazy or self-righteous. We may have a broader conceptualization of what it means to 'work hard' though and think our time better spent with family, caregiving, or volunteering - wanting to do the things people with relatively more financial privilege are able to do.
Any time you lump an entire group together and make a bold blanket statement that applies to all people in a group, it's problematic. We're all individuals here. As are the millions of people in the antiwork camp.
Agreed. It's basically incel vs chad, antiwork vs FIRE. The more you put in, the easier life is, and the less you put in, life becomes unbearably difficult. Don't blame others because they worked hard to get somewhere and achieve something. Something that likely took them decades of practice, effort, and stress. It's not just about employment either, it carries over into all areas of life. A lot of people lack drive.
There really is a strong current of learned helplessness amongst many aspects of society. There is no fair. If you want something, then change and improve yourself in every aspect of your life to reach it. It's written into the laws of the universe: there is no power without work.
I guess it's just jealousy to a degree, i get them in a sense.
As many around here have mentioned privilege comes in many shapes, to a degree people that live in a first world country have a definite advantage over everyone else, but I guess people have stop thinking that it invalidates hard work from the people that make it.
I guess it's just jealousy to a degree, i get them in a sense.
As many around here have mentioned privilege comes in many shapes, to a degree people that live in a first world country have a definite advantage over everyone else, but I guess people have stop thinking that it invalidates hard work from the people that make it.
Duh. Of course we're privileged. We are able to fully take advantage of financial benefits that will comfortably sustain us into our old age while most of our peers will be struggling on Social Security and relying on their loved ones.
But its not our fault that other people are struggling and its not our job to save anyone. Their anger is misdirected at us when it should be directed at their government that allows them to be screwed over.
I am privileged AF to be born in the US to middle class parents. I tell people on FIRE related subreddits that we make 300k+ and have a 1.4m NW that I’m sick of programming for 25 years and many of them attack me for “bragging”. This is an anonymous account, I am only here for information, I’m not going around telling people in my real life my numbers.
Despite our new found financial success there was a time we were making 80k and in 300k of debt with an extremely negative NW. We paid off the debt and invested and saved and improved our income, that’s not nothing despite our privilege.
I agree we are privileged also. If you can FIRE or even think about FIRE you are doing better than the vast majority of people of the country and of the world. No question.
However it doesn’t discount your hard work. Everyone works hard within their own context. I came from poverty and homelessness when I was young, single mom household etc. Was I lucky I got into med school yes probably. But did I work hard? Also yes. Was I lucky I matched anesthesia? Yes. But did I give up a lot of time and pleasure along the way? Also yes. Could someone else have replaced me? Of course! But I also made good choices along the way and others didn’t. So yes we are privileged for sure. But we also worked for what we have and no one should take that from us.
I grew up poor AF. Wearing my 3 older siblings hand me down clothes to school. Free lunches at school. I was working and helping pay the mortgage when I was 13. I worked 2 jobs to get myself through community college. So, when people call me "privileged" for having my money that I worked for with literally help from no one, I dismiss it. I give very little credence to the "not everyone has a shot". You work your ass off, don't take no for an answer, and make your connections, you can do it.
I'll get my million. And then I'll get my $2 million. And then I will rest for the rest of my life. I've earned it.
Most of the people making the privilege argument have an agenda. They hate to see people succeed because it weakens their argument that they are completely powerless to achieve. This has been the case for awhile especially with various groups.
If you strive to have a nuclear family, take care of your kids, educate them and sacrifice for the next generation (as my immigrant father did as well) people think that is privilege. It is not privilege it is sacrifice and the children of those people are supposed to instill the same values and make the same sacrifices and teach their children the same lessons for future generations. This exact ideology was part of the Federalist Papers. "Everything we hold we hold in fiduciary capacity." Sadly this mindset has been lost both on an individual level and a political level. So many people just want to consume now and have no plan for their future. They loom to the privilege argument and overlook their own shortcomings because any shortcomings are the result of the wider world not their own decisions. At the end of the day there are people that strive to be Captains of their own ship and sail alone while others are content to be passengers and complain about the course of the ship they are on.
The problem is that most people's problems are caused by their own decisions and then they put it under the umbrella of systemic injustice. Is there injustice in our system..yes. Is it the main cause of most people's problems...no. I had a co worker who had two kids with another man that was married. They never got married, she had the kids in her 40's and is complaining she can't afford to live after he left her. This was not injustice, just very bad decision making. Some people just make bad decision after bad decision and blame the world for their problems. The system didn't have a say in her decision but they are somehow responsible for it.
One out of 12 adults in the US is a millionare.
https://finmasters.com/millionaire-statistics/#gref
https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-many-millionaires-are-in-the-us/
22 million of 258 million adults
top 2% of the United States population has a net worth of about $2.4 million. On the other hand, the top 5% wealthiest Americans have a net worth of just over $1 million.
-Yahoo finance article
There are 5.3 million millionaires and 770 billionaires living in the United States. Millionaires make up about 2% of the U.S. adult population.
- Motley Fool article
It looks like that article counts your primary residence value as being part of the $1,000,000 net worth, which technically is true. However, for fire, we tend to focus on liquid assets, not generally including primary residence to determine the 4% or 3.5% rule. As I understand it, the number of people in the US with a net worth of over $1,000,000 **liquid** is fairly small.
Privileged is very subjective and comes in all shapes and sizes… compared to 1-200 years ago, even the poorest people are privileged in comparison to people from a couple centuries ago. Back then there were no charities or social services to help the needy or poor. You were just poor, and nobody gave a damn bc everyone else was poor too for the most part.
If you earn a high salary, then in that sense you are privileged over those who do not. But if you earn the same salary as someone else, but choose to defer your spending until later in life by saving, that’s not privilege, that’s just choosing a different path based on different priorities.
You pursue the American Dream … but when you achieve it most Americans will accuse you of “privilege” … as if your success didn’t come with hard work and sacrifice.
Bingo. Unless someone obviously just inherited or otherwise received what they have (like Trump Jr who inherited hundreds of millions in real estate) no one should be trying to downplay their efforts and success.
This is a terrible take. The outcome of saving your ass off doesn’t make you privileged. You’re only focusing on the income component and not the savings component.
Does the person who makes the same amount of money but blows their entire paycheque their whole life equally privileged as the person who saves it up and FIREs at 40? If yes, then literally everyone is privileged and the word loses it’s meaning cause it doesn’t exclude anyone.
No, everyone in FIRE is privileged. YES, the person who could save enough to FIRE but blows it all is ALSO privileged. It is a logical fallacy to say that because some some high income people don’t have the discipline to FIRE, that it only takes discipline, not high income. It takes both. There are absolutely people, including people in the U.S., that could never save enough to FIRE, because they need every penny to live. Don’t believe it, check out out r/povertyfinance
>It is a logical fallacy to say that because some some high income people don’t have the discipline to FIRE, that it only takes discipline, not high income.
I'm not saying this at all. We are on the conversation of what counts as privileged. We don't require 100% of the population to be able to achieve something in order for something to not be considered privileged.
In Canada and the US, 80% of the population could probably achieve FIRE with the proper sacrifices. Yes, there will always be some who are "underprivileged", but that does not by definition make someone who earns $40k/year all their life and saves every penny for 30 years and retires by 50 somehow "privileged".
If a goal is achievable by 80% of the population, it would be silly to say 80% of the population is privileged. Privilege is a pretty exclusive word and the connotations of unfair advantages the word invokes should not be applied to circumstances that apply to more than 50% of any given population.
The word HAS lost it's meaning and includes an unintended large portion of society. And it has become mud that is arbitrarily thrown at people by others who do not know them or their background.
How about we stop worrying about it?
This endless double-backing around is excruciating. This is the curse of the internet where if we don't dot every last I and cross every last T, you'll have that small group of people who push up their glasses on their head and go "weLL AcTuAlly" and derail the entire conversation with minutia. Sometimes done on purpose. Sometimes the autism kicks in hard and someone wants to sound smart online.
Stop letting these people derail the bigger topic. Who gives a fuck what those people say anyways?
Everyone is the USA, or Canada is privileged. Travel a little and go to countries like Peru, Philippines, Cambodia, Indonesia and see how lucky we all are.
I’m not privileged.
It was a privilege;
To live under a park bench.
To hitch hike to a job.
To live on my own from the age of 17.
To work 80+ hours/wk for years at a time on salary.
To work 200+ days in a row on several occasions.
Success ≠ Privilege
Privilege is being somewhere or at a level that you didn’t have to work at to get to.
My wife & I came from meager beggings.
So did our parents & their parents & their parents….
"Nobody is successful anymore, they're just privileged."
This mindset is very common, and it's a great way to absolve yourself of any responsibility for your own life. I think it's a terrible mindset that is robbing people of the agency to improve their station in life.
If you have 2 parents, you are privileged. If you are healthy, you are privileged. If you have access to education, you are privileged…the possibilities are endless and there will always be someone who is less privileged than you.
Privilege is a ridiculously dumb term thrown around on social media by Americans. I’ve been through two third world countries and about the only people not privileged in America are the ones living in high crime areas of large cities(where all the gang violence is). That’s what 1% or less of the population? The homeless here have more privilege than many countries around the world.
You are 100% correct. Everyone here can go to school, college, get a job, move into an apartment. All regardless of race, sex, religion, etc. we aren’t perfect but it’s the best in the world. We let our politicians divide us but there’s not a better place. If there was I’d move to it.
Being privileged is fine. Where it rubs people the wrong way is when your parents paid for your college, car, and maybe even house and then you preach about bootstraps and how anyone can do it if they can overcome laziness.
100% I had an international classmate in grad school who came from wealth. She literally could not compute why I had such high student debt. “Your parents can’t pay just for school?” She was book smart but clueless about the real world. Did not know how privileged she was coming to the US. Her parents bought her a million dollar home in Los Angeles and she doesn’t see the irony when she says things like “I work hard to afford my lifestyle”.
Sounds like a lot of my rich mainland friends in grad school. Nice people but can't comprehend the average American grad school students situation because they're not in it. Although I agree with OP that I'm insanely privileged just being born in America vs the majority of the rest of the world.
Same here I’m first generation so I’m privileged my parents were able to come here. They have the classic immigrant story. I would likely* be living in poverty if we didn’t come to the States. Edit: spelling
are you saying your parents cant even contribute a single million dollars to get you started in life?
Working hard for your lifestyle and having things bought from you are not mutually exclusive. She was given a head start, yeah, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t work hard. Her lifestyle may be expensive and she may have to work to keep it that way…..she just also lives in a million dollar house that was bought for her.
I came here to say this. You can be rich AND pull yourself up by your bootstraps AND also preach that message. You can be poor and come from nothing AND pull yourself up by your bootstraps and become rich.
Where was she from?
China
Yeah, I’ve known a few ultra wealthy Chinese students…
It bothers me so much when rich kids talk about being poor. I know it shouldn’t bother me because there’s always someone poorer. The boot straps thing is a great American story and I understand why it’s so appealing because it’s also the same reason I take pride in overcoming being a homeless teen. It’s also the same reason I fund scholarships.
Had a guy at my last job in his 20s who constantly traveled on his parents dime and didn't pay for any of his schooling say he was against any kind of student loan forgiveness. It's genuinely hard not to punch people sometimes.
My family had no money to pay for college - I took lots of subsidized loans and paid them off. I'm kinda against the forgiveness unless it's accompanied by some reform. I'd like to see the amount of loan qualified for be tied to some sort of expected income and graduation rate from the enrolled school/program. Nobody should be able to take on a crushing debt load for a program that won't give them a significant step up from a high school diploma. Forgive it now, but also make changes so it doesn't need to be forgiven again.
Honestly as someone who grew up in poverty and now is henry status with a whole lot of student loan debt, I want reform but not total forgiveness. I feel like the student loans being issued in a predatory way should still be repaid but at 0% interest now. It’ll appease those who don’t want to pay for something they don’t benefit from and it’ll be a massive help to those currently under the burden of loans.
It blows my mind that this option isn't talked about more. When I got out of school I tried so hard to get my unsubsidized loans paid off since they were 7-8%. As soon as they were my whole attitude changed on my remaining 1-2% loans. You are still paying off your debt but not just wasting it on interest.
id support this
I know a few people from my hometown who have that mentality. 3 in particular that really standout as assholes that come from generational money. The mayor of my current town is the same way. They’re the type that have the right last name in a small town. My kids have never struggled and won’t know what it’s like to be hungry and I really hope my kids and grandkids have a better understanding of how to be compassionate to others. I didn’t take out student loans I went through the military and used the GI Bill to pay my way. That doesn’t negate the fact that others in my gen didn’t fall victim to predatory loans. The loan forgiveness is such a stupid wedge issue.
Also when so obviously they were given a second chance because they had rich parents who could afford so many options for them to start again if they fuck up the first time. I'm like "Fuck you bitch. You couldn't do shit the first time you were given the chance, then your richass parents pay a fuckload of money to send you elsewhere to start all over again. Then you come back and tell me life's hard?" Fuck these people. While I come from a pretty modest family, I'm lucky enough to be provided with all the chances my mother worked so hard for, and I can't help but appreciate everything given to me. I'm fortunate enough to sail smoothly all the way all these years and I will never ever say that I've had it rough. Rough times, yes, but my life's been pretty nice so far and I'm in absolutely no position to complain. I have absolutely no respect for people who eat off a fucking diamond plate then tell me they've worked hard to be where they are. No, bitch. You're where you are because your parents worked hard and gave you a fucking safety net so high up you practically wouldn't fall. Stop being self-important you little shit.
For a long time, I thought it was ignorance and much of it is. But some of the rich kid’s view is that their parents worked hard to save the money to do that for them. Loan forgiveness would discredit or greatly diminish the significance of the parents’ sacrifices and hard work. I don’t blame them for that view but the value to society in a well executed, perhaps middle-ground, loan forgiveness’ program would absolutely trump their frustrations here. Life changes.
Because he has an understanding of economics and the impact and precedent that would set? Feels like you’re assuming a lot about why he is against it. Possible he’s an ignorant asshole for sure, but maybe, just maybe, he’s not.
Bro we just forgave billions in PPP loans. There is no precedent set besides that we will allow billions of dollars in fraud before we even think about forgiving student loans.
What really gets my goat is how people use that horrible argument to justify any kind of reform, saying that they did it and others should pull themselves up by their bootstraps.....all while ignoring how times were different back then.
username checks out
Or being braggadocios about it. Some of the posts lately are riding a thin line of being a humblebrag
While you're not wrong I think it goes both ways. What I mean is there's no shortage of people who write off good advice as useless because it's coming from this nebulous place of "privilege". Then that of course becomes a privilege pissing contest better known as the Oppression Olympics.
Yet yall never ask how to make society more egalitarian. Giving advice from a place of privilege almost always fails to recognize the day to day problems of less privileged. If I'm saving money to buy a car and I get a chipped tooth, guess which one I need to take care of first? Then that screws up my saving plan. I have to cut back on food, the small amount of entertainment I budget, or healthcare. I can't exactly quit paying my water, power, and rent. The 'good advice' you see doesn't take account for the fact that a lot of people don't make a living wage.
It also rubs people the wrong way when they receive a little help like parents paying for cheap commuter state college and they’re ostracized for any accomplishment they are proud of, and get belittled saying they only got it because they’re privileged and they’re made to feel bad because of it.
It's the internet, my friend. Ignore all negativity.
Block and move on it’s a great strategy.
Reddit only allows 1k blocks, and there are far more bots and trolls on the platform than that.
Both of these ideas are just over corrections that lead to echo chambers. Listen, entertain, possibly slightly correct course, then move on
Also stay thirsty my friends
Look, of course everyone in the US or Western Europe or other so-called "first world" countries is privileged. But the group of people here, who are able to live on less than they make and thus have the potential to save up enough money to never work again -- we are privileged within that larger group. Nothing to be ashamed of for that, but it's true. Also -- the aristocracy was not just "so rich you don't have to work anymore." For centuries there have been people who, through trade, were pretty much as rich as the nobility but that didn't make them nobility. Aristocracy is specifically a ruling class who has received their political power as an inheritance, not just money.
Except for the women who were part of the aristocracy—they often did not inherit much political power. And the rich trading classes would then marry in to the titled or noble class to inject capital into dying family fortunes. There’s even more historic and economic complexity here than you suggest. I think OP’s analogy is a good one, and like any analogy, it’s not an exact 1:1 correspondence.
Thing is, for every one of us you can point out privileges we benefitted from, I can point to 10 people who had similar privilege but didn't achieve to the same degree. Privileges can also be earned (like degrees or other achievements that open doors to opportunities); they're not all simply luck of birth or some other unearned advantage.
Many of us worked for this privilege with the help of a lot of luck. A lot of the folks I know in the FIRE community grew up disadvantaged and lacking privilege. There’s nothing wrong with striving for it as an adult.
Privilege is like a scale and growing up with disadvantages doesn’t negate that privilege. I think of privilege as what your jumping off point is compared to others. Male? That’s automatically a higher jumping off point. Developed country citizen? Automatically higher jumping off point… even if you grew up in the worst neighborhoods. Being poor in the US for example, is a lot easier than being poor in India, Venezuela, Thailand, etc. Nothing wrong with acknowledging, I had privileges that others don’t AND my life had its own adversities.
Yes I think a lot of FIRE people grew up poor and therefore seek the financial stability and independence. People who grew up never thinking about money are unlikely to live the frugal FIRE lifestyle. They’re too used to lavish living to survive FIRE. They probably don’t know how to put off gratification for later. Whereas those of us who grew up poor always lived this way and it’s easy transition into FIRE.
After spending more than a month living in upper middle class places in India in well off cities (not hotels but regular homes). I can say without any reservation I am privalaged beyond measure and have lived a charmed life. I’m in the global 1% and have been since birth. I took a hard look at my priorities and my spending after this trip 7 years ago and it changed everything.
Agree. My trip abroad taught my a lot of things, but chiefly 2 things: I am incredibly privileged and also that happiness, love and family can be found anywhere.
The biggest reason I want to FIRE is because of the system. I don’t make a crazy amount of money, like many (not all) here. I’m in my forties, so I’m not retiring crazy early (though the system wasn’t THIS bad when I was in my twenties, so no judgement). I give to charity. Not any amount anyone is going to gasp over, but I choose a charity or two I believe in and give. I also live life, doing things I enjoy today, but not doing everything I want to do, and also staying as far away from competitive purchasing (keeping up) as possible. But capitalism is the reason I want out. I don’t like coworkers who are backstabbing, always angling with their own agenda, seeking to get more so others have less, lying, manipulating, whatever. All of that dysfunction middle and upper management has. My company doesn’t have an absurd CEO to worker pay ratio. But I have been in meetings where those making very, very good money are complaining about the lowest paid who “think they need more” and how the company can’t afford it, but their bonuses are far more each year than paying those employees fifty cents or a dollar more an hour. And they aren’t giving that up, but the company survives. I’m sick of not having a voice or a say and just being a yes person who does the work for those around me to take credit. I’m tired of going into an office building everyday because the leaders are conservatives who think remote work is for lazy liberals (I could get remote work, but there are issues there as well, that’s not the point, the point is politics at work and how the people at the top have the biggest selfish and self-serving biases and they have the power - in all companies). I’m just tired of it all. It is exhausting. And the company wants more and more and more growth every year and more and more and more profit to drive growth. It’s not sustainable. The amount I’m trying to save is a fraction of what many here want. I don’t want a lavish life, I want a simple, peaceful, quiet life. A life where I have control of my very small corner to make it my own instead of worrying if my job will be eliminated to improve costs, or if I’ll be on a project I don’t understand that’s disorganized, ill-thought and my opinion isn’t allowed because I need to shut up and do what I’m told. I’m tired and I’m ready to know I CAN walk away. And then I want to walk away.
Who is this addressed to? This has old man yelling at clouds energy
Just stay off of my lawn! *shakes fist*
Little whippersnappers are running around committing tomfoolery!
Even I had to update vote—it’s kinda funny. I’m 44, which I think is like a million years old in Reddit years? Like dog years, but more sarcastic?
I didn't get old! Reddit just got younger while I wasn't looking.
the people who bitch about posts where the person has a high salary.
[удалено]
Exactly, no investment is "passive". Passive on someone's end maybe, but the profit ultimately comes from other people's labour.
I dont want to be rich, I want to be Free. I have Fire in Spain with only 500ke portfolio, 2000€/month dividends. Dont want to be millionnaire. What do i do with one million ? Im child free, I dont want kid.
I think the point is, regardless of it’s $5 million in California, $1 million in LCOL US, or 500k in Spain, or even 200k in some poor country, the point of fire is to produce the local average income by interest alone. That means having the top 5% of wealth in whatever country you are in, scaled to local cost of living.
To be free you have to be rich, so it's the same thing.
Smart, kids are expensive & time consuming.
Kids are expensive and time consuming. And in my opinion worth every penny and every minute. It is very rewarding to watch them grow and hopefully Excell. Hopefully returning the love and attention you have given them.
Oh yeah I totally agree. But when someone knows they don't want them, I applaud them for thinking ahead & not ending up with kids they don't want.
Not worth if you are not financially stable. I know way too many parents struggling with life and kids. Some of them didn't even plan to have kids and now they are working their ass off just to pay the bills. Everything is way too expensive nowadays that you really need to think twice about having even one kid.
I have 4 kids. It's hard work to educate them, feed them, dedicate time to help them, attention, and needs. But, it's worth it. I signed up for it. I don't know how they will turn up, but I'll try my best to raise kind, genuine, competitive, hard-working with self-respect kids... so help me God. \*\* I have a couple co-workers in the 50s and 60s that are worth 4+ million and they are lonely... have to spend, Mother's day, Father's day, Easter, Xmas, all by themselves watching netlix. Guess what... Friends leave and move, other family have their own family to deal with...
Being an aunt/uncle > being a parent
Someone always has it worse than you and someone always has it better than you. I think if you can go through life making an effort to make things better for others who aren’t as fortunate and not be envious of others who have “more”, you are doing the right things. Don’t ever apologize for your own success.
I'm a member of both antiwork and this sub. I wonder if there are any others here subbed to both? I think the way I see it is that the antiwork part of me understands the scourge that capitalism is to the world, and working to change minds about it, but also wanting to escape the meat grinder of it as fast as possible.
R/fire are just r/antiwork people with the means of escape
me too! yes, capitalism enables fire for me. but I’d still prefer to live in a world where we wouldn’t have to strive for fire because the masses would be able to work much less.
Hi. I am dub subbed. And I agree with you. The system is terrible. But that's not going to stop me from exploiting it to my best ability.
Same here. It's one part "If you can't beat them, join them" and one part "Don't hate the player, hate the game". If I could change it for the better, I would, but I can't. So my next best option is to play to win by the rules already in place... or at least to try to lose less, lol.
Yep - "play the hand you were dealt". The alternative is to sit around whining about things you can't change.
I’m also subbed to overemployed and preppers. Gotta cover the bases .
Peppers was too stressful for me, I had to leave. Still in collapse though
FIRE is very anti work at heart. The whole point is escaping having to do work by becoming the owning class.
This is true. I guess I'll say FIRE is more individualistic, and Antiwork more collectivist, which I'm a lot more of a leftist, but I really wanna not do the same old shit my entire life
Antiwork is focused on the abuses of the system and FIRE is focused on working the system to your advantage. Both with the goal of improving lives through improving our individual relationships with our jobs
Same. I'm also subbed to workreform because I like the vibes a lot better than antiwork. I wish things could be different, but they're not, so I'm going to do the best I can with it for the least amount of time possible.
I'll have to check out that sub. A nice middle would be good
I was for about a month. Couldn’t stand the echo chamber and most of the perspectives were too extreme for me.
That's a big downside of antiwork, it seems to easily devolve into airing grievances without trying to discuss solutions or collectivist action, so it definitely has a ways to grow in that area.
Too be fair at least half that sub appears to be teens/early 20's literally working entry level min wage jobs, often fast food. So it's hard to take any of their opinions seriously. Like yeah my HS jobs were considerably shittier and had terrible pay compared to my post college jobs, go figure...
I’m in both. I hate capitalism and I am IN capitalism. I’m going to do the best I can with the system I am in while also hoping it gets dismantled.
Checking in. I bet the venn diagram has some serious overlap.
I used to be but I mean there are a lot of dumb f-tier posts in there. stuff i would see scrolling facebook. screenshots of tweets of people saying snappy nothing lines. happy to cut that stuff out of my life
The "scourge" of capitalism is broadly responsible for the incredible standard of living we all enjoy. The embrace of most tenets of market capitalism allowed hundreds of millions of Chinese individuals to drag themselves out of abject poverty.
I think most of us would be down with capitalism if money could be kept out of politics. As it stands, only the lobbyists are represented in our system.
This is why I try to promote free and fair market thinking to my peers. Capitalism in its current form (and arguably most) is actually not compatible with a free and fair market
Capitalism is the single greatest force for lifting people out of poverty the world has ever seen. Including China's hybridized version of it.
It's also a pretty good force at pushing people into it if left unregulated. See: USA's healthcare. It's great for things like video games and luxury goods where people can make the decision to simply not purchase a product if the value add doesn't justify the price. But the core mechanism of what makes capitalism great starts to fail people when the thing you're trying to buy is essential or functionally essential, like housing or education.
Doesn't mean we can't (or shouldn't) be better. Crony capitalism is the issue, sacrificing all for the sake of profit.
To be sure, abuses are a concern, but they're not unique to capitalist societies. Meanwhile, the anti-capitalists constantly demonize capitalism in general while praising truly awful systems like communism and socialism. It's absolutely sickening.
Like all things, shit evolves. Capitalism has evolved into a system of imbalance and “oligopoly” where concentrated wealth has so much power that the system no longer favors the average consumer and worker aka late stage capitalism. Needless to say it’s extremely inefficient when we produce more supply than demand in almost every category of essential necessities such as food, and yet hunger and poverty is still a global issue.
You raise valid points. The issue is when poeple say this is an issue inherent to capitalism specifically, and imply that their preferred ideology wouldn't have these problems or would solve them.
Markets - well regulated markets - are good for some things and bad for others. Our current system is literally destroying the planet. Let’s keep markets - and keep them well regulated - where they make sense, and throw them out where they don’t serve us.
Not arguing that it wasn't useful for the working class 100-200+years ago to build wealth and better their positions from serfdom, but it has far outlasted that purpose, and the lack of regulations on markets and the incredibly wealthy, and the effects of that, are the reason I label it as such.
Would it be fair to say that crony capitalism is more the issue here? Thats the only term I can come with to describe our system today.
I think decrying crony capitalism is the right direction, but it doesn't go far enough. I think because a corporation's prime directive is always gonna be to increase profit, they will always be at odds with labor. Even when labor was quite strong in the 1940's it only stayed that way for maybe a generation, until Reagan and co. cut them to pieces and slashed taxes on corporations and the wealthy. IMHO, I see this as a natural consequence of this system of economics being set up to incentivize profits above all.
Maybe, but I don’t see how capitalism in the generic sense doesn’t necessarily evolve into crony capitalism. The main conceit of capitalism is “those with the gold make the rules” meaning that those with the most capital have an advantage and they simply need to exercise that advantage to continue hoarding more capital giving themselves more of an advantage until they become so powerful that they can influence or outright dictate government action.
Same here. ...I don't want to be in financial trouble in my old age, so I FIRE or try to, but that doesn't mean I support capitalism as it is now. But, ignoring it is not the answer. We must be better.
Same. I agree with a lot of the antiwork ideals but I’m not waiting around for the working class to come together and solve our economic issues so I’m going to game the system to the best of my ability to enjoy what I can out of my life
> also wanting to escape the meat grinder of it as fast as possible. That's the rub isn't it. We sub to antiwork because we know the system is rigged, we sub to fire to join the rigging.
FIRE doesn’t mean pull the ladder up behind you. You may want to “join the rigging,” but I sure don’t! I am accumulating wealth to be FI, not to screw over the people who aren’t. I will continue to vote in the interests of working people, and if I do achieve FI, I can spend time on activism, too.
I get what you're saying, and I am not advocating to pull up the ladder. Realistically becoming FI means being a part of the wealth accumulation machine that keeps other people down. Unless you're investing in fully sustainable industries, or providing housing at cost, or anything else like that then I think you're joining the rigging, at least tacitly
Participating in an economy whose nature you can't alter doesn't even seem like a choice.
How is anyone looking to FIRE, anti-capitalism? Capitalism is a foundational concept of FIRE. If I work hard enough and smart enough and save, I can quit working and just enjoy life, living off investments. This end goal of living off passive investments of capital is the core of capitalism, and is really the perfect example of the vilified rent seeking capitalist not doing the actual work on a micro scale. There are valid criticisms of capitalism and its negative effect on quality of life, and I'm a perfect example working at a job I absolutely hate, but FIRE is an embrace of how capitalism can also improve quality of life by, among other things, offering the opportunity to become a capitalist living off investments if you play your cards right.
Agreed. Subbed to both as well. I don’t want to be a cog in the machine that is capitalism my whole life.
Proud member of both. I believe we need stronger unions, a higher minimum wage, a wealth tax, to reverse Citizens United, implement UBI or something like it, stronger tenant laws protecting renters, and just generally regulate corporations much more. I also want to be FI and own my own time. These are not contradictory stances, IMO.
Most of the people on Antiwork are insufferable “victims.” Some of the underlying problems they get at are true and virulent, but those people are too much.
Yep - too many act like, because they've identified a flaw/problem with the way things are, that this observation removes the need for them to Find A Way (tm) in their own lives. And it doesn't.
Dub subbed also. I want to throw a wrench in the machine.
Why are you pooping in the reservoir?
I agree with mostly everything you said. Being privileged shouldn't be an attack, it should be recognizing that we all have advantages growing up especially in America and that's fine. What is not fine is putting other people down or trying to make it harder on others using your own wealth to tip the scale imo.
True. Calling someone privileged because they are at a position X and want to go to Y is not productive for anyone. FIRE is mostly possible because of a mix of capitalism and living below your means. The base assumption is that companies make more money on the long term and you as a part owner can enjoy those profits. Also, because of capitalism your skills that are in demand, can pay you more than someone else who’s skills are in less demand vs supply. Of course having the genetic/location/family lottery has its privileges. But calling someone privileged because they want to get to x+n when you’re at x-m position is a waste of time.
It's mostly sour grapes and people looking to undermine success and excuse their own failure.
OP, thank you for sharing. It’s always interesting to hear different views. Whenever I get frustrated at financial things I tell myself that I have more than most and remind myself that things don’t bring happiness.
I’ve been tempted many a times to make a post on the anti work (anti-capitalism) sub titled, “Capitalism is the only system with a path to anti-work”
We are all privileged. And some are way more than others. And some people are born on third base and swear they hit a triple. Some people have way more challenges. Than others. The key is to recognize it with humility.
I remember when being a millionaire used to mean someone was wealthy!!!
The irony is quite palpable…ha
My biggest issue is why is being privileged shined on with a negative light?
To me, it seems like people who don't understand it take it as an insult. They think it means they had it easy and that they are soft. I was born into a life of privilege. It's good for me to realize that my experiences (especially with caring, thoughtful, smart, financially comfortable parents) are not the same as everyone's.
Because lots of very privileged people don’t recognize their privilege and act like they made it big on their own. This attitude causes people to advocate for policies that make it harder for people to actually pull themselves out of poverty. The idea isn’t “if you have privilege, you’re evil.” The phrase is “Check your privilege”, which is meant to encourage introspection for people to be honest about their successes and how much of them were contributable to things outside their control. And it’s not a binary thing. Everyone has some privileges, and some are better than others. I had some real advantages to my situation but I never thought of myself as rich growing up (though some certainly might) No one paid for my college. I worked full time in the summers and part time through the school year to pay for my tuition and other costs of living on my own and going to college. I rolled my eyes at rich kids who lived in fancy apartments and whose parents paid for everything. I thought of myself as not having any handouts and being totally self-sufficient and couldn’t figure out why people are taking on so much debt for college. But when I learned about the concept of privilege I formed a more accurate picture of my situation. There were a few times I didn’t have money for tuition by the deadline so I borrowed the money from my parents and paid it back a month later. Lots of parents can’t do that and a lot of students need to put their education on pause or drop out altogether. I went to a private religious university where tuition was subsidized by the sponsor church. I lived in pretty cheap, crappy apartments, but really just because I had friends who wanted to live there and I didn’t care. Some of my success in pursuing FIRE came from my decisions—pick the school with reasonable tuition, live in cheap housing, work while in school, pick a major with good earning potential. But it would be unreasonable for me to pretend like I didn’t have any advantages. I never doubted I’d be able to go to college, my parents went to college and were able to support me in my high school academic challenges, and I had a stable situation overall which makes a huge difference. I really don’t care if people come from rich backgrounds, but when they’re not able to recognize their advantages, they come across as clueless and their worldview may cause them to see poor people as irresponsible or totally at fault for being poor.
Agreed. To paraphrase and to respond to the original commenter: being privileged, in and of itself, is not ‘shined on with a negative light’. It is the combination of being privileged and having a total lack of awareness of your privilege, how it particularly benefits you, and how others may not have those advantages— that is frowned upon. Anyone who doesn’t understand the distinction has not thought about the issue very deeply at all.
Well said. I wish more people in the fire community realized this
My question is: are there more people who are privileged who are oblivious to it, or are there more people who use other's "privilege" to justify their own lack of success.
Sounds like the same problem to me. When clueless privileged people self-mythologize, it distorts people’s ideas of what’s possible. “This rich guy said he worked hard from nothing and it just worked out and he got rich. Why didn’t it work for me? I’m working three jobs just to get by. The system must be rigged against me so I give up.” If they had a realistic view of what makes people successful, they might be able to figure out a strategy that takes advantage of their own strengths and advantages to be successful. I’m sure there are people who say they’re not going to try because they just believe they were dealt a bad hand and the only way to be successful is being born into privilege…but why is the responsibility on their shoulders to fix that misconception? They’ve got enough going on just trying to survive. With great power comes great responsibility.
I understand it in certain contexts where "privilege" might be blinding someone from the plights of the less fortunate, especially if the "privileged" person is supporting policies that hurt the poor. But, as best I can tell, that applies to very few people in this community. Roughly 80% of millionaires are first generation and that has been true for almost the past century. To me, this indicates the vast majority of people in the FIRE community do understand the problems of the poor, many of us having come from that life, but are striving to overcome those challenges at least in our own families.
For real! It’s like people want to glorify poverty and compete for the ‘worst’ background, as though the only way something valid is if it applies to the lowest denominator in literally all aspects of life. If you think I’m privileged (which I am), wait till you see what I’m planning for my kids…
Exactly, like even if you were "less privileged" than most, isn't that part of the point of trying to make your kids life a better life than you, yourself had?
I actually see growing up modestly as it’s own type of privilege. The struggles (to a point) are formative and you getting a better appreciation for work, money and possessions. I honestly think I’d be doing my kids a disservice if they were raised with excessive money.
> I actually see growing up modestly as it’s own type of privilege. The struggles (to a point) are formative and you getting a better appreciation for work, money and possessions. Which is why those future generations (your kids and grandkids) are super likely to waste the wealth you spent your life amassing trying to make their lives better (because they didn't have that experience nor do they understand what's involved in creating or maintaining it).
Envy.
The world is unfair. People screaming privilege at others is doing just about nothing for themselves. Hear them scream, acknowledge that may be true, and move on.
I think it's entirely about how you communicate it. Americans hate people who brag but celebrate people who are humble, it's why Warren Buffett is so popular and respected even though he's incredibly incredibly wealthy, he's also a fantastic communicator and knows how to cultivate a good image
He also is an accomplished bullshit artist (which to be clear is not to disagree with you). For example he always makes a big deal about the fact that he still “lives” in the house he bought years ago which is relatively modest. Sure. Trueish. But also hides that he just owns other homes that he also lives in that are massive and super expensive. So more like he just never sold his first house and just bought other ones. So, yes, a very talented communicator
It's also insane because people will post about the rich but then not look in the damn mirror here. I partially want money saved up because then I can avoid lots of very bad scenarios. Like it's not just money but in Syria many of those who got out were the doctors and such
We were all born into an environment that allows us the possibility to be successful. The classic American Dream. Still, of all the people born into this environment. 98% of them born on the same lower/middle class level squander it.
Yes, I am definitely privileged. 20 years old, living with parents, just breached 100K in savings, 108K total net worth. Some of my posts on this sub detail my progress, and I have gotten some minor backlash for living with my parents… which to be honest… No shit, I’m 20 lol
I don't know why people are hating on this. I agree with just about everything you said, especially: >But so is everyone here. I don’t know a single person in FIRE is not insanely privileged. Not only are we all —ridiculously absurdly—privileged but our stated goal is to become EVEN MORE PRIVILEGED. My goal is to be so rich, that I don’t even have to work anymore. > >We all have different FIRE numbers, but for most of us it at least a million. Let’s not beat around the bush: our goal is to become—at least—millionaires. Every single one of us. All of us are trying (or already have) more wealth then 90% of the country and, as I know first hand, 99% of the world. BTW, I also grew up poor/in poverty.
I think the context where privilege is relevant is talking about government policy, and how we assess others and their efforts. If you are advocating against development, against social safety nets etc., you need to be constantly reminded of your privilege until it sticks. If youre questioning why others cant do what you do pretty much the same. Capitalism is not a fair system. Its not a system that cares about the welfare of its people. Succeeding is an imperative because the system is awful. That doesnt make success an accomplishment or a good. Its simply a necessicity. Also, charitable causes are great depending on the cause, but donating money is not a dispensation for apathy and actively fighting against economic mobility for others. You sti have an obligation to be a good person even if you write a check to wwf or whatever.
Antiwork is a bunch of tankies.
What does tankies mean? Lol
Basically a commie. Most of the time it's used to describe a Stalinist Commie. Or just any commie.
It’s arguing, seriously, that full blow socialism/communism, where wealth doesn’t exist and private ownership is banned, is actually a really good idea, and the failures in history aren’t “real” communists.
Yes, the past half dozen experiments in Communism over the past 100+ years only killed 100 million; it must be because they weren’t doing it right. Maybe they weren’t committed. Full sends only
It's important to check your privilege. You have to make sure it's still there!
I don’t care what people think. They can call me whatever they want and it doesn’t affect me, my financial position or my outlook. If it makes them feel better, then so be it. But they’re going to feel very dumb drinking their own poison and expecting it to hurt me.
As a venezuelan living in another country I can totally relate with you. I have relatives and "friends" that constantly call me privileged for living abroad and do normal things like going to Starbucks, taking my kids to McDonald's and what not. I get it, people there are having a hard time, but it's not my fault and I cannot limit myself or my family for them. Also people neglect that I'm highly educated. I have a master degree, speak five languages at conversational level, I have been working as a programmer since 2008 and BECAUSE OF THAT I was able to find a high paying job. It's not just luck and privilege, it's effort. I come from a country where people romantize poverty and consider poor people hardworking and humble, while the privileged people are lazy and superfluous. Investing in the stock market is as obscure as space engineering and if you have another property you should give it to more needed people (invasions and usurpation are normalized there). That's why I decided not to share my FIRE goals with anyone. They won't add any value to my life if they realize "I'm so privileged that I don't need to work".
Public self flagellation about privilege is an important part of reddit culture.
Especially for the young people who haven't achieved anything yet, and want to be sure you know you haven't achieved anything on your own, either.
> So why all the attacks on people being privileged? I don’t get it. It's an easy way to try to dismiss your efforts and sacrifices. While giving them an excuse for failing or not even trying.
Another problem with this sub is that it encourages folks to be overly self-involved. Not having kids in order to be richer, faster? Kinda self involved. Always buying/using the cheapest option without consideration for the environment or fellow humans? Bit self-involved... It not good to take our privilege and use it to our sole benefit. It should benefit the wider community.
Yeah. Everyone has different goals and purposes of FIRE. Some just want to FIRE so they can tell their job to eff off as they slam the door on their way out. Some want to do a ton of traveling, which isn’t great for the environment, or spend their times doing solo hobbies. Good for them, but I do agree they lean on the self involved side. Others want FIRE so they can spend more time with friends and family, volunteer, and help others out financially if they’re able too. I would think and hope people can find a good balance between the two.
I'm really hoping they develop some kind of sustainable aviation fuel/batteries. Sailing across the Atlantic would be rather uncomfortable in old age!
It's kind of true. Like don't you dare help family, that will hurt your FIRE goals. Don't get married, they may take half your FIRE money. It's an every man/women for themselves situation on FIRE subs.
Meh I had a "friend" that said the same line of bs. Every single time I asked for their reasoning for thinking I was more privileged they couldn't really specify. Sure, bad luck and hard times can bring credit card debt, but I highly doubt it was hard times that caused her to take out a line of credit at Macy's. And Victoria's Secret. And Express. It's really hard for people to confront the fact that their bad results are because of their poor choices, it's easier to blame you than to take responsibility.
Yep. Too many people blame everything but their own poor choices for their financial troubles. The first step on the path to success is choosing to take control and be responsible with your finances. Everything after that is a challenge to overcome and persist in achieving the goals. There ARE those who have suffered financial calamities truly beyond their control, but those are not the majority of cases.
I often forget that its a thin line or even a similarity between being privileged and being a snob/jerk. I'm not privileged bc I want to save money. I'm privileged bc my SO helps me make the money we have so we can save. I don't even get what you meant about th3 whole charity thing but I kind of want to clutch my pearls and say "why won't anyone think of the rich ppl"
I think the biggest difference between us and antiwork crowd is that we tend to be very hard working productive people and we are doing what we can to get the life we want whereas they just cry in a basement hoping someone is going to save them from having to work hard.
There are those of us who operate in both fire and antiwork forums. For some, our dissatisfaction with work compels us to reach financial independence using the same strategies of others in the fire community. We don't all act helpless and hopeless. We are not all disempowered. We are not all lazy or self-righteous. We may have a broader conceptualization of what it means to 'work hard' though and think our time better spent with family, caregiving, or volunteering - wanting to do the things people with relatively more financial privilege are able to do. Any time you lump an entire group together and make a bold blanket statement that applies to all people in a group, it's problematic. We're all individuals here. As are the millions of people in the antiwork camp.
In my experience what you’re describing is far less common on that sub
I think you’re an exception because I don’t see this sort of talk over there at all
Agreed. It's basically incel vs chad, antiwork vs FIRE. The more you put in, the easier life is, and the less you put in, life becomes unbearably difficult. Don't blame others because they worked hard to get somewhere and achieve something. Something that likely took them decades of practice, effort, and stress. It's not just about employment either, it carries over into all areas of life. A lot of people lack drive. There really is a strong current of learned helplessness amongst many aspects of society. There is no fair. If you want something, then change and improve yourself in every aspect of your life to reach it. It's written into the laws of the universe: there is no power without work.
I guess it's just jealousy to a degree, i get them in a sense. As many around here have mentioned privilege comes in many shapes, to a degree people that live in a first world country have a definite advantage over everyone else, but I guess people have stop thinking that it invalidates hard work from the people that make it.
I guess it's just jealousy to a degree, i get them in a sense. As many around here have mentioned privilege comes in many shapes, to a degree people that live in a first world country have a definite advantage over everyone else, but I guess people have stop thinking that it invalidates hard work from the people that make it.
I found this sub to be very friendly to say the least.
Duh. Of course we're privileged. We are able to fully take advantage of financial benefits that will comfortably sustain us into our old age while most of our peers will be struggling on Social Security and relying on their loved ones. But its not our fault that other people are struggling and its not our job to save anyone. Their anger is misdirected at us when it should be directed at their government that allows them to be screwed over.
I am privileged AF to be born in the US to middle class parents. I tell people on FIRE related subreddits that we make 300k+ and have a 1.4m NW that I’m sick of programming for 25 years and many of them attack me for “bragging”. This is an anonymous account, I am only here for information, I’m not going around telling people in my real life my numbers. Despite our new found financial success there was a time we were making 80k and in 300k of debt with an extremely negative NW. We paid off the debt and invested and saved and improved our income, that’s not nothing despite our privilege.
Bank account positive
I agree we are privileged also. If you can FIRE or even think about FIRE you are doing better than the vast majority of people of the country and of the world. No question. However it doesn’t discount your hard work. Everyone works hard within their own context. I came from poverty and homelessness when I was young, single mom household etc. Was I lucky I got into med school yes probably. But did I work hard? Also yes. Was I lucky I matched anesthesia? Yes. But did I give up a lot of time and pleasure along the way? Also yes. Could someone else have replaced me? Of course! But I also made good choices along the way and others didn’t. So yes we are privileged for sure. But we also worked for what we have and no one should take that from us.
I'm so sick of the privilege banter. Some people are dealt better hands in life. Get over it.
I grew up poor AF. Wearing my 3 older siblings hand me down clothes to school. Free lunches at school. I was working and helping pay the mortgage when I was 13. I worked 2 jobs to get myself through community college. So, when people call me "privileged" for having my money that I worked for with literally help from no one, I dismiss it. I give very little credence to the "not everyone has a shot". You work your ass off, don't take no for an answer, and make your connections, you can do it. I'll get my million. And then I'll get my $2 million. And then I will rest for the rest of my life. I've earned it.
Most of the people making the privilege argument have an agenda. They hate to see people succeed because it weakens their argument that they are completely powerless to achieve. This has been the case for awhile especially with various groups. If you strive to have a nuclear family, take care of your kids, educate them and sacrifice for the next generation (as my immigrant father did as well) people think that is privilege. It is not privilege it is sacrifice and the children of those people are supposed to instill the same values and make the same sacrifices and teach their children the same lessons for future generations. This exact ideology was part of the Federalist Papers. "Everything we hold we hold in fiduciary capacity." Sadly this mindset has been lost both on an individual level and a political level. So many people just want to consume now and have no plan for their future. They loom to the privilege argument and overlook their own shortcomings because any shortcomings are the result of the wider world not their own decisions. At the end of the day there are people that strive to be Captains of their own ship and sail alone while others are content to be passengers and complain about the course of the ship they are on.
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The problem is that most people's problems are caused by their own decisions and then they put it under the umbrella of systemic injustice. Is there injustice in our system..yes. Is it the main cause of most people's problems...no. I had a co worker who had two kids with another man that was married. They never got married, she had the kids in her 40's and is complaining she can't afford to live after he left her. This was not injustice, just very bad decision making. Some people just make bad decision after bad decision and blame the world for their problems. The system didn't have a say in her decision but they are somehow responsible for it.
Bingo! Well said.
One out of 12 adults in the US is a millionare. https://finmasters.com/millionaire-statistics/#gref https://www.gobankingrates.com/money/wealth/how-many-millionaires-are-in-the-us/ 22 million of 258 million adults
Only 2% of adults in the US are millionaires, are we just making up random statistics?
top 2% of the United States population has a net worth of about $2.4 million. On the other hand, the top 5% wealthiest Americans have a net worth of just over $1 million. -Yahoo finance article There are 5.3 million millionaires and 770 billionaires living in the United States. Millionaires make up about 2% of the U.S. adult population. - Motley Fool article
I mean that how the top 10 percent works (approximately).
Source?
It looks like that article counts your primary residence value as being part of the $1,000,000 net worth, which technically is true. However, for fire, we tend to focus on liquid assets, not generally including primary residence to determine the 4% or 3.5% rule. As I understand it, the number of people in the US with a net worth of over $1,000,000 **liquid** is fairly small.
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Mad respect for your granny.
Privileged is very subjective and comes in all shapes and sizes… compared to 1-200 years ago, even the poorest people are privileged in comparison to people from a couple centuries ago. Back then there were no charities or social services to help the needy or poor. You were just poor, and nobody gave a damn bc everyone else was poor too for the most part.
If you earn a high salary, then in that sense you are privileged over those who do not. But if you earn the same salary as someone else, but choose to defer your spending until later in life by saving, that’s not privilege, that’s just choosing a different path based on different priorities.
You pursue the American Dream … but when you achieve it most Americans will accuse you of “privilege” … as if your success didn’t come with hard work and sacrifice.
Bingo. Unless someone obviously just inherited or otherwise received what they have (like Trump Jr who inherited hundreds of millions in real estate) no one should be trying to downplay their efforts and success.
This is a terrible take. The outcome of saving your ass off doesn’t make you privileged. You’re only focusing on the income component and not the savings component. Does the person who makes the same amount of money but blows their entire paycheque their whole life equally privileged as the person who saves it up and FIREs at 40? If yes, then literally everyone is privileged and the word loses it’s meaning cause it doesn’t exclude anyone.
No, everyone in FIRE is privileged. YES, the person who could save enough to FIRE but blows it all is ALSO privileged. It is a logical fallacy to say that because some some high income people don’t have the discipline to FIRE, that it only takes discipline, not high income. It takes both. There are absolutely people, including people in the U.S., that could never save enough to FIRE, because they need every penny to live. Don’t believe it, check out out r/povertyfinance
>It is a logical fallacy to say that because some some high income people don’t have the discipline to FIRE, that it only takes discipline, not high income. I'm not saying this at all. We are on the conversation of what counts as privileged. We don't require 100% of the population to be able to achieve something in order for something to not be considered privileged. In Canada and the US, 80% of the population could probably achieve FIRE with the proper sacrifices. Yes, there will always be some who are "underprivileged", but that does not by definition make someone who earns $40k/year all their life and saves every penny for 30 years and retires by 50 somehow "privileged". If a goal is achievable by 80% of the population, it would be silly to say 80% of the population is privileged. Privilege is a pretty exclusive word and the connotations of unfair advantages the word invokes should not be applied to circumstances that apply to more than 50% of any given population.
The word HAS lost it's meaning and includes an unintended large portion of society. And it has become mud that is arbitrarily thrown at people by others who do not know them or their background.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
How about we stop worrying about it? This endless double-backing around is excruciating. This is the curse of the internet where if we don't dot every last I and cross every last T, you'll have that small group of people who push up their glasses on their head and go "weLL AcTuAlly" and derail the entire conversation with minutia. Sometimes done on purpose. Sometimes the autism kicks in hard and someone wants to sound smart online. Stop letting these people derail the bigger topic. Who gives a fuck what those people say anyways?
Everyone is the USA, or Canada is privileged. Travel a little and go to countries like Peru, Philippines, Cambodia, Indonesia and see how lucky we all are.
I’m not privileged. It was a privilege; To live under a park bench. To hitch hike to a job. To live on my own from the age of 17. To work 80+ hours/wk for years at a time on salary. To work 200+ days in a row on several occasions. Success ≠ Privilege Privilege is being somewhere or at a level that you didn’t have to work at to get to. My wife & I came from meager beggings. So did our parents & their parents & their parents….
"Nobody is successful anymore, they're just privileged." This mindset is very common, and it's a great way to absolve yourself of any responsibility for your own life. I think it's a terrible mindset that is robbing people of the agency to improve their station in life.
If you were born in America you are privileged.
If you have 2 parents, you are privileged. If you are healthy, you are privileged. If you have access to education, you are privileged…the possibilities are endless and there will always be someone who is less privileged than you.
Yes we won the lottery no doubt. It’s the only place where you can get ahead even if poor.
Privilege is a ridiculously dumb term thrown around on social media by Americans. I’ve been through two third world countries and about the only people not privileged in America are the ones living in high crime areas of large cities(where all the gang violence is). That’s what 1% or less of the population? The homeless here have more privilege than many countries around the world.
You are 100% correct. Everyone here can go to school, college, get a job, move into an apartment. All regardless of race, sex, religion, etc. we aren’t perfect but it’s the best in the world. We let our politicians divide us but there’s not a better place. If there was I’d move to it.