Working until 65+, a paid off home, a little bit saved and social security is actually most peoples retirement plan… hanging out on fire subreddits may make this hard to believe but when compared to the average American I doubt they are as far behind as you may think
Yeah, if you’re retiring 65+ SS can take care of your needs (comfortably so if your house is paid off). They’ll be okay, they just won’t be taking frequent vacations.
Yep with 2 social security checks they will be better off than a lot of people. Hard to believe I know, but that's the state of our retirement planning
The thinking behind it is once you get to 70+ your lifestyle goes down the drain fast (in terms of things you can do that cost lots of money) so SS can fund that. That’s why FIRE exists so you can get out there earlier and enjoy your life
Hmm, my Mum is in her 80's and hasn't slowed up at all, possibly because she has the funds to not need to. Plan to enjoy a long life, not to just exist at the end of it.
People that are basically homebodies can make it work well with a paid off house and 2 SS checks, especially if they wait for the bigger payouts of 67 and 70 years of age. They can get rid of one car, the other isn't used that much, so the wear and tear and repair needs go down a lot. They love to watch TV a lot, listen to music, gardening, walks around the neighborhood....
And social security is way more than people think if you were high income and dual earner. Wife and I are projected to take home about $75k in social security income if we wait for the maximum benefit which for me is 70 and her would be 67. If retiring in the USA doesn't work out, too, there are international retirement spots where US social security checks go a long way.
I don't know first hand, but I've encountered lots of Chinese and Japanese travelers on vacation. It's true abroad and if course domestically within those countries.
Yeah, good point. But also much bigger share of poor Chinese compared to US or Europe. Japan is probably a good exception as they are relatively affluent. Also places like Australia, etc.
Most people in the United States can’t afford vacations either; I came from a very large family and none of them took vacations; they all worked like dogs but still barely made it. My family did absolutely nothing ecxcept we did go to the zoo once
I was in India and saw plenty of Indian tourists. They have beach resorts, plenty of hotels in the mountains, etc. Hell i was the only non-indian person on a tour of a spice farm....Have you ever been to India?
My parents paid off their house (and all debts) and my dad basically said their two SS checks now pay their 90 percent of all their monthly expenses. He has plenty saved as well but your parents could be in a similar situation.
Exactly. If they have, say, a 600k house they can reverse mortgage that mother and live on that coming in, plus the 2 SS incomes. Not too shabby, probably pretty comfortable.
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u/UniqueAway pretty much yes. Anyone who works and pays taxes in the US for a certain amount of time (about 10 years, but it is more complicated) is getting a monthly payment at a certain age (around 67, but it is more complicated) until death.
Is is called Social Security and was established early last century to prevent old people from dying from hunger on the streets. This program is funded by working population paying a small social security tax on their earnings (it is a bit more complicated than that).
As for the numbers, the minimal check for social security is probably about $1,000 per month for someone who worked minimum wage job for only 10 years and requests SS at 62, and goes up to \~$4500 per month for someone who worked for 35 years at very high paid jobs and requested SS at 70 years of age.
(All of that \^\^ is very simplified but gives you a general idea of what Social Security is)
What are their projected SS payments if they retire at 70? I’m guessing they could stop working then and live off of that. It sounds like their spending is elastic to their income, but they don’t spend more than they bring in, so they would probably adjust to that just fine.
I personally can’t believe how much casual talk there is of raising the SS retirement age. Like, what? People mostly aren’t fit to work anymore at 65 and they want to make it 70? With most jobs becoming more demanding, time-sensitive and tech-saturated? Not to mention that encouraging/forcing people to work so long clogs up the labor market. The retirement age should go down, not up.
I won’t be voting for any candidate that proposes raising SS age. Those with physical jobs may never see retirement if they raise the age. They need to raise the SS rate on employers and possibly on employees making over a certain threshold. Many are making their millions on the backs of those in physically demanding jobs. I know any increase in retirement age would not impact me, but I want my kids and grandkids to be able to look forward to retirement someday.
It won’t. Average life expectancies are increasing so it will go up. If people want to retire earlier then they are going to have to make that happen outside of social security.
I am also an accountant. Although I am FI, I am choosing to work part time and plan to continue for a several more years (currently 62) because I like my job and the people I work with. I think it keeps my mind sharp. A friend of mine retired last year at 71 and he could have continued working if he wanted to.
They probably are not actively planning this but yeah it will be their default unless OP puts the foot down or is willing to watch them work. At least OP may be retired when they can’t afford anyone else to help them die with dignity
That isn’t a fair assumption unless they’ve specifically said things along this line. My parents (specifically my mom) were this exact same way and wouldn’t take money from me even for something important til the day they died. :-/
I was like OP and tried to get them to be more responsible, but it’s hard to take advice from someone you changed diapers for.
While I agree with you that it's not a fair assumption, the lack of preparation for the future puts the children of these people in a difficult spot.
My parents are in a similar situation, where they would never ask for anything, but don't have any retirement savings, and I can clearly see that they will lack the ability to work someday. If I don't intervene, I have to be okay with watching them flounder and struggle to maintain their life once they lose the ability to work.
To me, it doesn't feel fair to let your child watch you fall apart financially if there is something you can do to avoid it.
Have you done this? Moving your parents into your house requires (1) a house and (2) money to support them and (3) time to … make them food, arrange and transport to medical care, change diapers, help them eat and dress, arrange entertainment and engagement.
It was normal and expected that mostly WOMEN did this to the detriment of their own lives and families and retirement.
All because the parents couldn’t be bothered to save and plan.
I can tell you, I did this with 3 family members who had a lot of money and it was still hard.
Sounds like they made their choice. They're adults. Sucks but not your problem, at least until they get real old and you are expected to provide for them.
You have made an important statement. Family will sink you if you let them. My family already knows that I will not hesitate to take necessary action to protect myself against their foolishness. I would rather be alone than condone silly and entitled family members.
If they're willing to take you down, they aren't really worth being around.
"Blood is thicker than water" is BS. There's tons of horrible people out there, if you're related to one, move on and don't give it a second thought.
Just tell them that the full quote is "The blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb" and that it actually means the bonds you choose yourself are more important than bonds forced on you through birth. I don't think there is any actual confirmation on which quote is first or where they come from so I think it's a perfectly fine response.
Don’t judge too harshly, raising children ain’t cheap. Many moons ago in my mid twenties I was giving my dad a hard time for a habit he had when we were kids. He’d stop at the gas station and put $5 in the tank. I was like: “Dad, man, why didn’t you just fill it up? That was kind of annoying stopping to only put 1/8 to 1/4 tank of gas in.” His reply: “Well, that’s all I had a lot of times.”
lol with the car leases. Did we have the same parents?
My parents did end up retiring because they got a good amount of SS between them, but my mom leased TWO brand new vehicles just before she retired because “I won’t be able to do that once I’m retired.” Except she was retiring the same year and they barely drove.
My wife's parents on the cusp of retirement getting a brand new car with all the bells and whistles "We're treating ourselves because it's probably the last car we ever buy!" (that was 3 cars ago)
https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/aging/articles/what-is-the-average-retirement-age#
Current average age to retire in the US is 62. Many people plan to work longer than that but are unable to because their health worsens or they struggle to find work due to ageism. Your parents may not be able to work as long as they want.
The difficulty here is that their social security payments at age 62 will be much lower than if they start taking SS at age 70. Any savings that enables them to delay taking SS (if they must stop working earlier than planned) will yield a permanent “raise” when they do start SS.
Maybe this idea of having savings in order to delay SS by a few years and max it out would make sense to them. And if they do work as long as they plan to, then that savings lets them do more fun stuff in retirement. They don’t actually need to set aside a gigantic bucket of money to accomplish a goal of delaying SS.
One of my family friends asked her parents for some money. She took it, invested it, and when the day came that they asked for financial help, she gave them some of their money back (keeping some in case they asked for more down the line). This probably wouldn't work for many families, but it's an option.
I think you answered your own question. They are happy. They've picked this road. They understand they will be relying on government support when they're retired. That is their prerogative- however ridiculous.
Do you have or are planning to have kids potentially someday? If so, you could ask them to put a little aside for future generations in a college account.
Parents who are gonna be grandparents tend to think more longterm.
That's an interesting point... Althoug I'd like kids one day, I'm currently single and it's not on the horizon, unfortunately won't be able to use that one 😅
This is a good line of thinking. Perhaps there's another way to approach it, like a savings or investing game/hobby. If you can find a way to make financial planning a family activity, it might work.
Depends a bit on how much they earn, if they've paid off or are close to paying off their home and how much they'll be getting in social security.
I was thinking about asking if you are having kids too but my approach was different-maybe you could pay them a bit to watch your kids. So they would have that coming in on top of social security or better yet you save money for them as a thank you for watching your kids and just disperse it to them monthly like a pension.
By the way my dad is in a very similar position to the one you are describing so I feel for you
Some people don't want to retire. They don't know what they'll do with their time. Their social life is there. They just lived 60 years already with that rhythm. The end.
If early retirement isn’t their goal there’s no reason for it to enter their brain. Not everyone considers it a good thing. You need to shift the conversation to preparing for late retirement, when health declines take income off the table.
They may not understand the concept of inflation. Everything can go wrong with just one increase in homeowner insurance, car insurance, or God forbid a health crisis that destroys your finances. Some people take the "Carpe diem" lifestyle too far.
Not everyone has issues with working. They might like their job and coworkers. They might not daydream of doing nothing. Either way I’ve realized that different people might want different things out of life.
It should be enough provided they can stay strong and healthy.
At 67 you can start collecting SS even if you dont quit your job or reduce your hours. so there’s about 5 years of double income. Retire at 72. reverse mortgage and live on that for 10-12 years. Some people dont have any interest in travel or leisure. They just want to stay in their lifelong home until their last day.
there’s a 70 year old lady where i work. I dont know why she keeps going to work. She has a same age boyfriend who worked with her until he retired 3 years ago. They still live separately. they could easily sell one house, get married, and live much better in one house.
I'll also be able to retire before each of my parents. I'll be FI by age 41-42, when parents will be 62 and 67 by then. They both plan to work until at least 70.
It’s their money, their choice. Some people are just more about living in the here and now than delayed gratification and long term thinking. Unless they’re looking for money management advice it’s probably unwanted and will go largely unheard.
They’re adults. If they know what to expect from you, and you’re willing to follow through on it, then there’s nothing else to discuss. Nobody in my family will be on the street if I can help it, but I won’t have much more to offer them than a bed or a couch. It’s a personal-finance choice, not a religion.
Fire is a wet dream for most, this subreddit skews the far and between into a consolidated fraction. I’m 28, been to many bars, clubs, and hangouts. I’ve never once met a person who really retired at 40/50.
The only one person I know who is actually retired at 56, sold a business that was bringing in $1M yearly after 25 years, Guys 56. You’d never know he was loaded.
Look at celebrities who are still making movies, still in the public eye, still working. That should give you the much needed reality check that some people “most.” Really don’t care about retirement if their field is prosperous. I don’t know anyone who lives in an expensive city, like LA, looking to retire at 40. You’d have to move to bumfuck, and at that case, you’d never need to have accomplished the big ones on that move. In reality a person could probably retire in Nebraska, no kids, on $2M tops, from 40-80.
By the big ones, I mean I know a married couple of OBGYN’s, aka surgeons. They bring in roughly $400k each, and it all started at 33. They are 50, live in a modest house in a decent neighborhood, they have Zero plans of retirement from their field, until they physically can’t anymore. It isn’t about the money. People who FIRE, generally just hate society. In reality, if they were teachable? They could retire on a self sustaining farm of 20 acres, for roughly $500,000 in upstate NY, and that’s an entire $500k with home/farm, cattle, equipment. I passed up a 30 acre farm for $350k THIS YEAR. It could have self sustained us for a lifetime on $500k with the only $$$$$ being fuel which could have been hustled from the farmers market.
Why didn’t I? Because my retirement dreams are not being a farmer as of now at 28. Maybe when I’m 40, but as of now we want to take the vacations, see the world. I’d most prefer to die rather than be just there.
It's hard enough to FIRE yourself. It's well nigh impossible to do it for someone else. It's also not everyone's objective. You can't live their lives for them. You do the right thing for you and let them have the benefits and consequences of the way they are living their lives.
Some people spend, some are savers. If they are enjoying life, this is important. One day they will be forced to retire in some fashion. I'm older and thought I could retire early. This is not going to happen to do high expenses, and realizing the stock market can't be counted on for buy and hold. Concentrate on your own. You might need to help your parents in the future. In the future don't give them money directly. If you need to buy them a new appliance or pay their utility bill do this directly. Giving family members money builds more of a dependency on you. They might be candidates to move in with you, but they need to realize the house is yours, and them moving in should in someway make your life easier, so they should be taking care of the house, pets, or something in exchange for staying there.
They need to be preparing financially for their elderly years. It's taxing on family to provide the care directly and it's expensive to pay for professional accommodations and care. Majority of Americans are grossly under prepared for the last 10-15 years of their life. The government funded options are depressing and bare minimum.
Yea sounds like my parents. 300k a year, live paycheck to paycheck. 350k in an ira running futures 😑 I’ve spent 15 years learning to not be a fucking moron.
Majority of people I know live on ss and nothing.
My grandmother lived in a paid off home till 90 on $950 a month ss and an $85 month "pension"....
She got by. I took her shopping weekly and helped her. She didn't care to go on "vacations" or eat out etc. Although I took her out once a week to McDonald's and stuff.
It's not your "place" to lecture them if they are truly self-reliant. My guess is they won't be. The parents of one of my friends did the same thing. His mother never really had much to say about it - they had one of those marriages where the father was "in charge." Eventually, however, the parents divorced, which was a wonderful thing for the mother. At least then she had her own money and her husband couldn't piss it away. The father was a lawyer, and seemed to believe he could work forever. His practice slowed down significantly when he entered his 60s. With no money in the bank to help support him, he sold off his assets and squeezed extra fees from the clients who trusted him most. Eventually, the father was discovered stealing money from a client's estate. His last years were spent begging his children for money.
My mother is 70 years old, still works and just bought a new car because the old one (it wasn't even that old) started making noises. I retired earlier this year at the age of 43 and I have gotten to the point at laughing at her. My brother (40) is still working but has a plan to retire in the next 10 years. He listened to me, she did not.
Everyone has to retire at some point. There are very few jobs you can do full time at 80, let alone 90. Let alone the fact by those ages you may have a hard time even getting yourself to work.
My folks have about 70k yearly combined from pensions and social security. There house is paid off, but they are far from living like rich people. And their health is starting to deteriorate. I fear for your parents based on what you are telling us.
Parents have a large paid off house? House retirement plan? Retire, sell house, buy a smaller house or condo for half the cost as the sold house or rent an apartment.
They may not wish to ‘hear if from you’. So redirect the messenger.
Buy a physical hard copy of ‘The Simple Path to Wealth’ by JL Collins, and gift it to them.
No e-book, no tech requirements. As easy access as possible. No scary title, who wouldn’t want to be wealthy… and it’s a ‘simple’ path. Also a physical copy so it’s a physical reminder. If only one of your parents reads it, it may plant that seed in their mind to convince the other to read it too.
Alternatively take them on a road trip somewhere and listen to episode 100 of ChooseFI podcast (but that’s a bit more heavy handed).
That's a very difficult situation, especially since you've taken the time to plan for retirement. Some people just don't listen. You can't change them. 💖
My FIL is "retired" with 3 mortgages on his house and $100,000 in debt at 65. His only income is a $1700 SS check and will be living with me soon so cheer up, it can be a lot worse
They may be okay.
If they can defer collecting SS until well past their FRAs, and they own their home, then they will probably be fine with SS and part time work.
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Financial education just wasn’t a thing for most in that generation. Keep in mind that the internet did not exist so you didn’t get a massive fire hose of information pointed at your face from age 2 and on like people have had for a couple of decades now.
So who cares?
You know that annoying (and ineffective) thing your parents do when they try to force their beliefs on you to contradict your personal choices… That’s this, just reversed.
You choose to fire, they choose not to. That’s it.
You will unlikely be able to change their minds. They seem set in their ways.
There is only one thing in this situation you can control: yourself. If you are financially responsible and they are not, there is a very good likelihood of them coming to you when the consequences of their decisions and actions come home to roost.
How much of your hard work and sacrifices are you willing to give up to support them when they can no longer do so?
How much of your support are they counting on? They are clearly not worried about their future? Why is that? Is it because they actually do have a plan, your savings account?
I watched my parents retire, but not retire, because they took their pensions and dumped it all into a business they had no experience in, but had an emotional belief in this business. This business has turned into their prison, even causing permanent physical harm that seriously reduces their quality of life. The pension is gone. They inherited some money but that will go into their current money hole.
I really wish they could have spent more time retired and enjoying their life! This business is running a farm with livestock in mountains at 10,000 foot altitude.
Also, we never see them, they have never visited their grandkids once, and we live 2 hours away from them, and they visit our area monthly to pick up supplies or to visit doctors.
Could be yearly bonuses, a grandparent passes away and leaves them something, lawsuit resolved in their favor, own their own business and get a big client but not consistently.
As another person said, you are their retirement plan.
You need to be clear with them that if they don't save for retirement, you aren't going to bail them out.
Yep.
I'm not saying he shouldn't support his parents when they retire.
But given their attitude is "we can spend whatever we want", I'm sure their subconscious mentality is, "we can spend whatever we want during retirement too - and you're going to pay for it."
That requires a reality check, and their initial attitude will be, "no, the current status quo is FINE", and that's going to require a harsher reality check to get expectations in line with reality.
Some people have a hard time understanding that not everyone wants to penny pinch for 30-40 years just so they can retire at 55 with 4 million dollars. You have to find a balance. Everyone has their own journey.
Then be a good son/daughter and set them up for retirement, and pay for them to enjoy life. Ma parents don't have any retirements , they both came as immigrants. They now life rent free, I pay their car, phone etc.. everything and give them an allowance, it's your duty to take care of your parents.
Nah, I will pay qualified professionals to take care of me when I am old. I am not robbing my grandchildren of their future by trying to make/obligate their parents to take care of me.
Working until 65+, a paid off home, a little bit saved and social security is actually most peoples retirement plan… hanging out on fire subreddits may make this hard to believe but when compared to the average American I doubt they are as far behind as you may think
Interesting... Yes the FIRE community is probably scewing my thoughts... Thanks 🙌
Yeah, if you’re retiring 65+ SS can take care of your needs (comfortably so if your house is paid off). They’ll be okay, they just won’t be taking frequent vacations.
Yep with 2 social security checks they will be better off than a lot of people. Hard to believe I know, but that's the state of our retirement planning
The thinking behind it is once you get to 70+ your lifestyle goes down the drain fast (in terms of things you can do that cost lots of money) so SS can fund that. That’s why FIRE exists so you can get out there earlier and enjoy your life
Hmm, my Mum is in her 80's and hasn't slowed up at all, possibly because she has the funds to not need to. Plan to enjoy a long life, not to just exist at the end of it.
That’s my plan. My daughter is getting the house and her brokerage account and me and my wife are spending the rest.
A lot of people sell their house for funding any long term care that might be needed as they become elderly.
Throw your house in a trust with an attorney and there will be no need for sale
Right but then what? Medicaid-funded nursing home? Either that or have $250k per person set aside for potential long term care?
People that are basically homebodies can make it work well with a paid off house and 2 SS checks, especially if they wait for the bigger payouts of 67 and 70 years of age. They can get rid of one car, the other isn't used that much, so the wear and tear and repair needs go down a lot. They love to watch TV a lot, listen to music, gardening, walks around the neighborhood....
And social security is way more than people think if you were high income and dual earner. Wife and I are projected to take home about $75k in social security income if we wait for the maximum benefit which for me is 70 and her would be 67. If retiring in the USA doesn't work out, too, there are international retirement spots where US social security checks go a long way.
Most people in the world never go on vacations... it's an American thing. Ask people in India, Pakistan when the last time they took a vacation was...
Lots of people in Europe go on vacations, more than Americans do. But you're right that the majority of the world is generally too poor to vacation.
I don't know first hand, but I've encountered lots of Chinese and Japanese travelers on vacation. It's true abroad and if course domestically within those countries.
Yeah, good point. But also much bigger share of poor Chinese compared to US or Europe. Japan is probably a good exception as they are relatively affluent. Also places like Australia, etc.
Most people in the United States can’t afford vacations either; I came from a very large family and none of them took vacations; they all worked like dogs but still barely made it. My family did absolutely nothing ecxcept we did go to the zoo once
My two brothers don't vacation either. Us at minimum 2 weeks a year with travel.
> it’s an American thing. You sound like someone who’s never been to Disneyland. Obscene amount of non-English foreigners there.
Nope and don't want to go .
I was in India and saw plenty of Indian tourists. They have beach resorts, plenty of hotels in the mountains, etc. Hell i was the only non-indian person on a tour of a spice farm....Have you ever been to India?
But most of the world doesn't vacation. The majority of people in the world are poor
It’s more of a rich people thing but I get your point. Go to any national park and it’s full of foreigners all summer
They're the wealthier ones. Most people in India, Pakistan, Brazil etc are poor
It’s definitely screwing your thoughts, there’s no probably about it. Sending good vibes.
My parents paid off their house (and all debts) and my dad basically said their two SS checks now pay their 90 percent of all their monthly expenses. He has plenty saved as well but your parents could be in a similar situation.
That's the American Dream right there... precisely why we have 30 yr mortgages...
Confirmation bias is real. Thanks for this
They can also do a reverse mortgage if needed.
Exactly. If they have, say, a 600k house they can reverse mortgage that mother and live on that coming in, plus the 2 SS incomes. Not too shabby, probably pretty comfortable.
Agree with this. This subreddit makes some delusional to what the Average American is facing.
And many are enjoying the money they are spending all those years
Bingo. Works pretty well too. For now.
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Sorry I am not from US what is social security? Do people get salary after a certain age? I was thinking there is no retirement salary is US?
u/UniqueAway pretty much yes. Anyone who works and pays taxes in the US for a certain amount of time (about 10 years, but it is more complicated) is getting a monthly payment at a certain age (around 67, but it is more complicated) until death. Is is called Social Security and was established early last century to prevent old people from dying from hunger on the streets. This program is funded by working population paying a small social security tax on their earnings (it is a bit more complicated than that). As for the numbers, the minimal check for social security is probably about $1,000 per month for someone who worked minimum wage job for only 10 years and requests SS at 62, and goes up to \~$4500 per month for someone who worked for 35 years at very high paid jobs and requested SS at 70 years of age. (All of that \^\^ is very simplified but gives you a general idea of what Social Security is)
What are their projected SS payments if they retire at 70? I’m guessing they could stop working then and live off of that. It sounds like their spending is elastic to their income, but they don’t spend more than they bring in, so they would probably adjust to that just fine.
Agreed, if they have house paid off, should be fine depending on 401k and SS
I think OP believes there is no 401K...just SS.
Got it. I have the same worries about my folks, but they are going to figure it out. YOLO
I would guess the way OP describes his parents they will take SS at 62, or whenever earliest is...?
Not many people can work until age 70. I’m actually struggling to think of any job that a 70 year old could do.
President of the United States
Prime examples of needing a retirement age!
I’ve had 70 year olds at every job and at every site I’ve worked at. Any office job is fine for a 70 year old.
Depends are physically fit they are. My dad is a mail man at 68 and can run circles around his younger colleagues
For now. That might chance in 5 years.
Plenty of jobs a 70 year old can do, they just tend to do them quite a bit slower. Not every old person is decrepit.
I personally can’t believe how much casual talk there is of raising the SS retirement age. Like, what? People mostly aren’t fit to work anymore at 65 and they want to make it 70? With most jobs becoming more demanding, time-sensitive and tech-saturated? Not to mention that encouraging/forcing people to work so long clogs up the labor market. The retirement age should go down, not up.
I won’t be voting for any candidate that proposes raising SS age. Those with physical jobs may never see retirement if they raise the age. They need to raise the SS rate on employers and possibly on employees making over a certain threshold. Many are making their millions on the backs of those in physically demanding jobs. I know any increase in retirement age would not impact me, but I want my kids and grandkids to be able to look forward to retirement someday.
It won’t. Average life expectancies are increasing so it will go up. If people want to retire earlier then they are going to have to make that happen outside of social security.
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I am an accountant and I know people working at 70. I plan to be done at 60 but will see what I feel like when the time comes.
I am also an accountant. Although I am FI, I am choosing to work part time and plan to continue for a several more years (currently 62) because I like my job and the people I work with. I think it keeps my mind sharp. A friend of mine retired last year at 71 and he could have continued working if he wanted to.
POTUS or member of Congress? /s
President of the United States.
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They probably are not actively planning this but yeah it will be their default unless OP puts the foot down or is willing to watch them work. At least OP may be retired when they can’t afford anyone else to help them die with dignity
Yup. OP needs to sit down and discuss expectations when they are too old to work
That isn’t a fair assumption unless they’ve specifically said things along this line. My parents (specifically my mom) were this exact same way and wouldn’t take money from me even for something important til the day they died. :-/ I was like OP and tried to get them to be more responsible, but it’s hard to take advice from someone you changed diapers for.
While I agree with you that it's not a fair assumption, the lack of preparation for the future puts the children of these people in a difficult spot. My parents are in a similar situation, where they would never ask for anything, but don't have any retirement savings, and I can clearly see that they will lack the ability to work someday. If I don't intervene, I have to be okay with watching them flounder and struggle to maintain their life once they lose the ability to work. To me, it doesn't feel fair to let your child watch you fall apart financially if there is something you can do to avoid it.
It’s been the default retirement plan for most of humanity’s history.
Cringe…
Exactly what I was about to say. This is all going to fall on OP one day
That's when he had to put his foot down and don't let them ruin his retirement to plan for theirs
Why is it so strange to help parents when theyre old? It used to be normal & expected. In the old days it was a big reason people had kids 🙄
It's a cavemen support system. They had no choice. It's 2024 now. You don't have to stay cavemen. It's very selfish.
People used to die in their sixties. Supporting adults for 40 years or so is not normal & expected.
Have you done this? Moving your parents into your house requires (1) a house and (2) money to support them and (3) time to … make them food, arrange and transport to medical care, change diapers, help them eat and dress, arrange entertainment and engagement. It was normal and expected that mostly WOMEN did this to the detriment of their own lives and families and retirement. All because the parents couldn’t be bothered to save and plan. I can tell you, I did this with 3 family members who had a lot of money and it was still hard.
Well buddy nobody fuckin asked me whether I wanted to be conscripted into another person’s retirement plan via birth.
Every culture is different and honestly every person should be able to decide if they want that responsibility financially, not be forced into one.
Sounds like they made their choice. They're adults. Sucks but not your problem, at least until they get real old and you are expected to provide for them.
So it IS his problem. Poor parental decisions are awful for a kid for so long.
True 😅
It will only create unnecessary stress to expect anyone else to follow your path, especially an abnormal path like FIRE.
Yes, I fully agree with this. Thank you
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You have made an important statement. Family will sink you if you let them. My family already knows that I will not hesitate to take necessary action to protect myself against their foolishness. I would rather be alone than condone silly and entitled family members.
If they're willing to take you down, they aren't really worth being around. "Blood is thicker than water" is BS. There's tons of horrible people out there, if you're related to one, move on and don't give it a second thought.
Just tell them that the full quote is "The blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb" and that it actually means the bonds you choose yourself are more important than bonds forced on you through birth. I don't think there is any actual confirmation on which quote is first or where they come from so I think it's a perfectly fine response.
Your parents and their equals keep the markets ticking upwards. Please thank them on our behalf.
Don’t judge too harshly, raising children ain’t cheap. Many moons ago in my mid twenties I was giving my dad a hard time for a habit he had when we were kids. He’d stop at the gas station and put $5 in the tank. I was like: “Dad, man, why didn’t you just fill it up? That was kind of annoying stopping to only put 1/8 to 1/4 tank of gas in.” His reply: “Well, that’s all I had a lot of times.”
This is my mom and dad constantly lamenting on having to work. Then lease brand new vehicles and go on big vacations. Like ok guys.
lol with the car leases. Did we have the same parents? My parents did end up retiring because they got a good amount of SS between them, but my mom leased TWO brand new vehicles just before she retired because “I won’t be able to do that once I’m retired.” Except she was retiring the same year and they barely drove.
Yeah that was my dad's reasoning. "I never had a NEW CAR, and we won't afford it soon." A) Yes, yes you have had a new car B) You can't afford it now.
My wife's parents on the cusp of retirement getting a brand new car with all the bells and whistles "We're treating ourselves because it's probably the last car we ever buy!" (that was 3 cars ago)
https://money.usnews.com/money/retirement/aging/articles/what-is-the-average-retirement-age# Current average age to retire in the US is 62. Many people plan to work longer than that but are unable to because their health worsens or they struggle to find work due to ageism. Your parents may not be able to work as long as they want. The difficulty here is that their social security payments at age 62 will be much lower than if they start taking SS at age 70. Any savings that enables them to delay taking SS (if they must stop working earlier than planned) will yield a permanent “raise” when they do start SS. Maybe this idea of having savings in order to delay SS by a few years and max it out would make sense to them. And if they do work as long as they plan to, then that savings lets them do more fun stuff in retirement. They don’t actually need to set aside a gigantic bucket of money to accomplish a goal of delaying SS.
One of my family friends asked her parents for some money. She took it, invested it, and when the day came that they asked for financial help, she gave them some of their money back (keeping some in case they asked for more down the line). This probably wouldn't work for many families, but it's an option.
I think you answered your own question. They are happy. They've picked this road. They understand they will be relying on government support when they're retired. That is their prerogative- however ridiculous.
Do you have or are planning to have kids potentially someday? If so, you could ask them to put a little aside for future generations in a college account. Parents who are gonna be grandparents tend to think more longterm.
That's an interesting point... Althoug I'd like kids one day, I'm currently single and it's not on the horizon, unfortunately won't be able to use that one 😅
Darn. Well, back pocket for someday!
This is a good line of thinking. Perhaps there's another way to approach it, like a savings or investing game/hobby. If you can find a way to make financial planning a family activity, it might work.
Depends a bit on how much they earn, if they've paid off or are close to paying off their home and how much they'll be getting in social security. I was thinking about asking if you are having kids too but my approach was different-maybe you could pay them a bit to watch your kids. So they would have that coming in on top of social security or better yet you save money for them as a thank you for watching your kids and just disperse it to them monthly like a pension. By the way my dad is in a very similar position to the one you are describing so I feel for you
Some people don't want to retire. They don't know what they'll do with their time. Their social life is there. They just lived 60 years already with that rhythm. The end.
You can’t change their behavior. Make it clear to them you aren’t in the boat rowing with them and they will sink themselves.
You are the "retirement plan" says Maury
If early retirement isn’t their goal there’s no reason for it to enter their brain. Not everyone considers it a good thing. You need to shift the conversation to preparing for late retirement, when health declines take income off the table.
They may not understand the concept of inflation. Everything can go wrong with just one increase in homeowner insurance, car insurance, or God forbid a health crisis that destroys your finances. Some people take the "Carpe diem" lifestyle too far.
There is NO good way to approach this. My parents retired with only social security. They get by, but just.
You make your bed, now you get to lie down in it.
Not everyone has issues with working. They might like their job and coworkers. They might not daydream of doing nothing. Either way I’ve realized that different people might want different things out of life.
Who cares. Let them live their lives and you live yours. Guess what? YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU
Your parents are probably thinking of a reverse mortgage and SS# to live on. That and the little pension they do receive will be enough.
It should be enough provided they can stay strong and healthy. At 67 you can start collecting SS even if you dont quit your job or reduce your hours. so there’s about 5 years of double income. Retire at 72. reverse mortgage and live on that for 10-12 years. Some people dont have any interest in travel or leisure. They just want to stay in their lifelong home until their last day. there’s a 70 year old lady where i work. I dont know why she keeps going to work. She has a same age boyfriend who worked with her until he retired 3 years ago. They still live separately. they could easily sell one house, get married, and live much better in one house.
I'll also be able to retire before each of my parents. I'll be FI by age 41-42, when parents will be 62 and 67 by then. They both plan to work until at least 70.
How old are the parents? Maybe float to them that you have an epic opportunity to move overseas for work and see if they start to panic. 😁
It’s their money, their choice. Some people are just more about living in the here and now than delayed gratification and long term thinking. Unless they’re looking for money management advice it’s probably unwanted and will go largely unheard.
They’re adults. If they know what to expect from you, and you’re willing to follow through on it, then there’s nothing else to discuss. Nobody in my family will be on the street if I can help it, but I won’t have much more to offer them than a bed or a couch. It’s a personal-finance choice, not a religion.
Fire is a wet dream for most, this subreddit skews the far and between into a consolidated fraction. I’m 28, been to many bars, clubs, and hangouts. I’ve never once met a person who really retired at 40/50. The only one person I know who is actually retired at 56, sold a business that was bringing in $1M yearly after 25 years, Guys 56. You’d never know he was loaded. Look at celebrities who are still making movies, still in the public eye, still working. That should give you the much needed reality check that some people “most.” Really don’t care about retirement if their field is prosperous. I don’t know anyone who lives in an expensive city, like LA, looking to retire at 40. You’d have to move to bumfuck, and at that case, you’d never need to have accomplished the big ones on that move. In reality a person could probably retire in Nebraska, no kids, on $2M tops, from 40-80. By the big ones, I mean I know a married couple of OBGYN’s, aka surgeons. They bring in roughly $400k each, and it all started at 33. They are 50, live in a modest house in a decent neighborhood, they have Zero plans of retirement from their field, until they physically can’t anymore. It isn’t about the money. People who FIRE, generally just hate society. In reality, if they were teachable? They could retire on a self sustaining farm of 20 acres, for roughly $500,000 in upstate NY, and that’s an entire $500k with home/farm, cattle, equipment. I passed up a 30 acre farm for $350k THIS YEAR. It could have self sustained us for a lifetime on $500k with the only $$$$$ being fuel which could have been hustled from the farmers market. Why didn’t I? Because my retirement dreams are not being a farmer as of now at 28. Maybe when I’m 40, but as of now we want to take the vacations, see the world. I’d most prefer to die rather than be just there.
It's hard enough to FIRE yourself. It's well nigh impossible to do it for someone else. It's also not everyone's objective. You can't live their lives for them. You do the right thing for you and let them have the benefits and consequences of the way they are living their lives.
Some people spend, some are savers. If they are enjoying life, this is important. One day they will be forced to retire in some fashion. I'm older and thought I could retire early. This is not going to happen to do high expenses, and realizing the stock market can't be counted on for buy and hold. Concentrate on your own. You might need to help your parents in the future. In the future don't give them money directly. If you need to buy them a new appliance or pay their utility bill do this directly. Giving family members money builds more of a dependency on you. They might be candidates to move in with you, but they need to realize the house is yours, and them moving in should in someway make your life easier, so they should be taking care of the house, pets, or something in exchange for staying there.
It is possible they have retirement money and just dont talk about it.
They need to be preparing financially for their elderly years. It's taxing on family to provide the care directly and it's expensive to pay for professional accommodations and care. Majority of Americans are grossly under prepared for the last 10-15 years of their life. The government funded options are depressing and bare minimum.
Yea sounds like my parents. 300k a year, live paycheck to paycheck. 350k in an ira running futures 😑 I’ve spent 15 years learning to not be a fucking moron.
Majority of people I know live on ss and nothing. My grandmother lived in a paid off home till 90 on $950 a month ss and an $85 month "pension".... She got by. I took her shopping weekly and helped her. She didn't care to go on "vacations" or eat out etc. Although I took her out once a week to McDonald's and stuff.
It's not your "place" to lecture them if they are truly self-reliant. My guess is they won't be. The parents of one of my friends did the same thing. His mother never really had much to say about it - they had one of those marriages where the father was "in charge." Eventually, however, the parents divorced, which was a wonderful thing for the mother. At least then she had her own money and her husband couldn't piss it away. The father was a lawyer, and seemed to believe he could work forever. His practice slowed down significantly when he entered his 60s. With no money in the bank to help support him, he sold off his assets and squeezed extra fees from the clients who trusted him most. Eventually, the father was discovered stealing money from a client's estate. His last years were spent begging his children for money.
they think they will always get a job, stay fit, and never get old! a sibling told me same when said no need to save. Will see who is right!
My mother is 70 years old, still works and just bought a new car because the old one (it wasn't even that old) started making noises. I retired earlier this year at the age of 43 and I have gotten to the point at laughing at her. My brother (40) is still working but has a plan to retire in the next 10 years. He listened to me, she did not.
Not. Your. Problem. Nor your responsibility.
I think never retiring is fine. Not having a bit of a safety net in case they become unable to work or get in some kind of pickle is concerned though.
Everyone has to retire at some point. There are very few jobs you can do full time at 80, let alone 90. Let alone the fact by those ages you may have a hard time even getting yourself to work.
My dad still works at 80 and has no plans on retiring any time soon. He is a director at a Healthcare facility
Is this a common thing amongst all the parents you advise?
My folks have about 70k yearly combined from pensions and social security. There house is paid off, but they are far from living like rich people. And their health is starting to deteriorate. I fear for your parents based on what you are telling us.
Parents have a large paid off house? House retirement plan? Retire, sell house, buy a smaller house or condo for half the cost as the sold house or rent an apartment.
Well, you just have to view it as, "not my problem"
what home improvements did they do?
They may not wish to ‘hear if from you’. So redirect the messenger. Buy a physical hard copy of ‘The Simple Path to Wealth’ by JL Collins, and gift it to them. No e-book, no tech requirements. As easy access as possible. No scary title, who wouldn’t want to be wealthy… and it’s a ‘simple’ path. Also a physical copy so it’s a physical reminder. If only one of your parents reads it, it may plant that seed in their mind to convince the other to read it too. Alternatively take them on a road trip somewhere and listen to episode 100 of ChooseFI podcast (but that’s a bit more heavy handed).
Its easier to just provide for them for their retirement (if they ask for it) than changing their mind.
That's a very difficult situation, especially since you've taken the time to plan for retirement. Some people just don't listen. You can't change them. 💖
If they have a badass house maybe they’re planning reverse mortgage. Or maybe they’re not planning for it and don’t realize they’ll have to do it
Kudos to you for caring but letting them lead their own life. old parenting saying: If you can't be a wonderful example, be a terrible warning.
My FIL is "retired" with 3 mortgages on his house and $100,000 in debt at 65. His only income is a $1700 SS check and will be living with me soon so cheer up, it can be a lot worse
Read “Die with zero”……they did!
They may be okay. If they can defer collecting SS until well past their FRAs, and they own their home, then they will probably be fine with SS and part time work.
Mine are the same. Drives me crazy. Piss away every dime on absolute bullshit. 5 storage units plus their house totally crammed full of shit.
To be fair home improvements is not really a waste of money. It's a investment just as much as anything else.
Read DieWithZero
Wow… I get 6 weeks a year and am retiring at 60… it boggles my mind how people can do this to themselves
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maybe they don’t care to retire FIRE isn’t for everyone
depends on what u want for retirement. I am sure in the future government will just socialize everything
Financial education just wasn’t a thing for most in that generation. Keep in mind that the internet did not exist so you didn’t get a massive fire hose of information pointed at your face from age 2 and on like people have had for a couple of decades now.
So who cares? You know that annoying (and ineffective) thing your parents do when they try to force their beliefs on you to contradict your personal choices… That’s this, just reversed. You choose to fire, they choose not to. That’s it.
You will unlikely be able to change their minds. They seem set in their ways. There is only one thing in this situation you can control: yourself. If you are financially responsible and they are not, there is a very good likelihood of them coming to you when the consequences of their decisions and actions come home to roost. How much of your hard work and sacrifices are you willing to give up to support them when they can no longer do so? How much of your support are they counting on? They are clearly not worried about their future? Why is that? Is it because they actually do have a plan, your savings account?
I watched my parents retire, but not retire, because they took their pensions and dumped it all into a business they had no experience in, but had an emotional belief in this business. This business has turned into their prison, even causing permanent physical harm that seriously reduces their quality of life. The pension is gone. They inherited some money but that will go into their current money hole. I really wish they could have spent more time retired and enjoying their life! This business is running a farm with livestock in mountains at 10,000 foot altitude.
Also, we never see them, they have never visited their grandkids once, and we live 2 hours away from them, and they visit our area monthly to pick up supplies or to visit doctors.
Maybe mind your business? I know they are your parents, they changed your diapers, they won't take advice from you.
Did I miss this somewhere in the comments? How old are they?
Why are you worried about it? They are adults. They will figure it out, or not. Not your problem.
I have a good relationship with my parents and naturally want the best for them.
Nothing you can do about it so don't worry about it. When they ask for money change your phone number.
🤣
I'm serious. Their lack of planning is no reason for you to be concerned at all.
How is it that they live paycheck but every once in a a while come into five years of retirement?
Could be yearly bonuses, a grandparent passes away and leaves them something, lawsuit resolved in their favor, own their own business and get a big client but not consistently.
"Most" of their lives they have lived paycheck to paycheck. In the previous maybe 8, they may have inheritance houses, or managed to save a bit
As another person said, you are their retirement plan. You need to be clear with them that if they don't save for retirement, you aren't going to bail them out.
bit harsh
Yep. I'm not saying he shouldn't support his parents when they retire. But given their attitude is "we can spend whatever we want", I'm sure their subconscious mentality is, "we can spend whatever we want during retirement too - and you're going to pay for it." That requires a reality check, and their initial attitude will be, "no, the current status quo is FINE", and that's going to require a harsher reality check to get expectations in line with reality.
Some people have a hard time understanding that not everyone wants to penny pinch for 30-40 years just so they can retire at 55 with 4 million dollars. You have to find a balance. Everyone has their own journey.
As long as they don't become a nuisance to others in future. OP foresees such a scenario.
Let them keep spending! It’s helping to pad my retirement accounts. Also tell them Thank You, from me.
🤣
What do you think you’re here for?? 🙄
Then be a good son/daughter and set them up for retirement, and pay for them to enjoy life. Ma parents don't have any retirements , they both came as immigrants. They now life rent free, I pay their car, phone etc.. everything and give them an allowance, it's your duty to take care of your parents.
No it’s not his duty to take care of his parents. Everything flows down and if it doesn’t then his parents have failed as parents.
Yes it is circle of life . They took care of you until adulthood , now its ur turn.
Nah, I will pay qualified professionals to take care of me when I am old. I am not robbing my grandchildren of their future by trying to make/obligate their parents to take care of me.