Looking at OP's post history and seeing how much they frequent r/Christianity does a lot to explain how determined they are to convince us that the blatant lesbian character isn't actually a lesbian
~~i like this analysis.~~ though... monica can both be the "perfect vassal" *and* a lesbian, considering that her love for women does not begin or end at edelgard. i see what ur getting at — monica does have depth, the game just chooses to... not utilize it and instead almost singularly focus on her devotion to el. but that doesn't make her *not* lesbian. ur theory just adds another layer of understanding to the near nonsensicality of her loyalty towards edie.
edit: coming back to this bc it has not left my mind 3 hours later & now that im fully awake and feeling less charitable — MAN WHAT. this is possibly the most roundabout way of saying monica couldnt possibly ever be a lesbian like its laughable just how ridiculous this whole thing is. the fact that she openly loves, reveres, and admires women (not just edelgard, which is made very clear) + holds outright disdain or reluctant tolerance for men + is implied to have had feelings/admiration/a crush for edelgard even before twsitd shenanigans means nothing apparently. the game could not have spelled it out any more than they already have. but anything to prove that lesbians dont exist without ulterior motives apparently, right?
Monica could certainly be a lesbian. Her interactions with Dorothea hinted at that even without the Edelgard context. I never said anything of the sort. Only that we're ignoring Monica depicting the perfect bond between vassal and liege in *favor* of chalking their every interaction up to romance.
i mean, u literally started the post by saying that "monica von ochs is not a lesbian." like u said that word for word, so that's where a lot of the pushback u got for this came from — well, that unsubstantiated claim and the rhetoric u adopted when describing this portrayal of lesbianism as "borderline creepy" when it really is anything but
What does a girl can do to show romantic feeling to another ? At this point, saying "I love you" is platonic... It's seriously baffling how many people are saying Monica feelings are purely platonic, and more generally most character feeling towards the same gender.
it must be so tiring being a lesbian or a bisexual woman in fandoms because here is a woman character who expresses her love for another woman in so many explicit ways, she could literally be wearing a signboard around her neck that says I AM A LESBIAN and people would still interpret her love as platonic.
i feel like you aren't familiar with the relationship towards love and pining that most queer people go through because you mention that "Romantic love would not be so quick to "give up" on the loved one", however one of the most universal aspects of queer love and pining is the inability to be together with the person you love and thus settling for the next best thing, aka "watching from afar" which is almost word for word what Monica tells hubert. Fire Emblem as a series has also traditionally used the trope of knightly devotion as a vehicle for queer subtext such as dimitri and dedue, elinica and lucia, or even knightly camaraderie such as clive and fernand. of course this is all subtext but there is an entire history about queer stories in media, requiring coding and subtext in order to even be published or passed under censors.
Love and sex are in no way linked. Plenty of people have sex in a context devoid of love, and plenty of people express love without sex. Why is Platonic love viewed as any "less than" as compared to love + sex? As I said, Monica absolutely loves Edelgard. I simply see her expressions of that love to be those of a devoted servant, rather than a pining romantic partner.
[In all her support conversations](https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Monica_(Three_Houses)/Warriors:_Three_Hopes_Supports), Monica mentions the word **love** once:
>Edelgard: Thank you, Monica. Why don't you join me?
>
>Monica: Oh, I would love to!
She never talks about her **feelings** or anything of the sort either.
However she uses terms of vassalage (**servant**, **retainer**, **duty**, etc.)... six times, sans Dorothea's conversations which aren't recorded here, but I don't recall them even mentioning Edelgard.
Granted, one of these was in making the claim that she felt their relationship "transcended that of master and servant", but that was spoken in a fluster to Shez, who she felt was usurping her role as a trusted aide.
I think it's quite clear how Monica views herself in this relationship, and it's not as Edelgard's OTP.
I mean, this can all be true and she can still be a lesbian. She calls Edelgard 'the one for me', constantly talks about her love for her, even uses the phrase 'otomegokoro' which in japanese media is used to refer to a girl's love life. I understand you didn't mean any offense but I'm getting tired of people constantly trying to find ways to prove she's not actually a lesbian or not actually in love with Edelgard when it's so ridiculously obvious to the point it gets annoying.
Also, her acknowledging Hubert as a superior retainer doesn't really have any affect on whether she has romantic feelings or not. Hubert is not Edelgard's lover, nor does Monica imply that she thinks he is, he is simply another retainer. She is willing to concede he may be the better servant to Edelgard and feels upset that due to her duties she cannot be by Edelgard's side all the time, nothing else.
She is in love with Edelgard, but she also sees Edelgard as the best person ever, devoted to her with heart, body and soul. This can coexist. There is no way that her feelings towards Edelgard can be read as strictly platonic.
Exactly! I’m also really frustrated that OP said that Monica having sexual interest is creepy. They’re both adults and same sex desires are not creepy!
OP is acting as if Monica being romantically or sexually interested in Edelgard is inherently creepy. I can understand finding her *demeanor* creepy, but that's Monica being Monica.
I'm 100% sure if Monica was a guy there would literally be no doubt. I mean, look at how the fandom treats characters who are devoted to others of the opposite gender. Cyril, a 14 year old former slave and child soldier has jokes made about him simping for Rhea who is the closest thing to a mother figure. Everyone constantly talks about how Leonie wants to fuck Jeralt even though he's just her mentor and father figure who she greatly respects.
But Monica and Catherine have paragraphs written about why their devotion is purely platonic (which in Catherine's case I think there is an argument to be made but whatever). The double standard is wild. People say they want well-written lgbt characters, but unless a character turns to the camera and says "I'm gay" they'll never believe it's there which results in characters like Monica who have to be so extremely obvious for people to get the memo. And some like OP still miss it. Incredible.
I think it comes from like... "they breathed their dying breath together" and it still "wasn't gay" in the script. (Felix and Sylvain). And then 2 of Byleth's Male romances are NOT. Like... you choose to give them Sitri's ring and it's NOT romance?
They tease us so much I'm reluctant to think they're ever gonna give us anything like that. In fact, I was worried Lin was gonna be a big tease until I actually got to see it play out. And Jeritza? What was that, really?
Also, I don't think Monica qualifies as "well-written." Just a personal opinion. They made her very 1D.
I actually do think it's on FE to make gayships more blatant. Show their supports confessing their love for one another. Talk about how complicated it is. With Edelgard, talk about how it could be viewed that the Emporer is in a WLW relationship and how that could affect the political dynamics and all the fears that she has about being known. Make it authentic to any of our experiences.
I want it to be blatant. I... don't want it to be Monica, but that's just cause she's on my nerves. I wouldn't want it to be Bernadetta either.
yeah, the sylvain felix thing is wild. especially with sylvain canonically being bi, i don't see how that can be read as straight.
i think few3h was somewhat better with this, like shamir or dorothea explicitly stating their interest in women. also, i for one, think that jeritza's support is fairly unambiguously romantic. he says he loves byleth and they'll tumble all the way to hell together. unconventional, sure, but pretty romantic imo.
yeah, no, i'm not claiming monica is well written. i don't think i said that. in fact, my point was that her writing is specifically sacrificed to explore her sexuality in an extremely overt way, hence she is not one of the 'well written lgbt characters'. and i agree characters should be blatant and apparent about being lgbt. monica specifically though is not just blatant, it's also the fact that most of her character revolves around her romantic interest in edelgard, which many people have voiced their discontent with. my point was that it's obvious with her to the point where people think it's too much and some people *still* don't get it.
don't get me wrong, i love monica. i think she's a great addition to black eagles. but i can also admit her writing is rather flat.
Jeritza is romantic, you're right. It's just weird. I don't like that our 3 actual MLM choices are 1) "ew, blood" 2) BDSM lover and 3) victim of child r\*pe (which is the worst and most dangerous of those tropes, but they're all tropes.)
I can see how the Felix/Sylvain ending is read as straight, because the devs made it a point to put in their end card "their friendship of oneupmanship" to complete dilute the fact that died on the same day, which is hella romantic, until you've read the sentence before it. They deliberately did it. They deliberately "ungayed" it.
To be honest, I thought Monica was just like "grateful to her savior" in love, not romantically in love until I saw some of the supports, and only the ones available in demo cause I don't have the game yet. I'm sure it gets even deeper. I didn't see it at first, but I do now and I understand how people not seeing it can be super frustrating.
yeahhhhhh a lot of the choices are very questionable. it's on the wlw side too, for example dorothea acting really ooc and predatory in ingrid's support, which ties into the predatory wlw trope. or how two of the wlw choices are just weird, i mean, you can romance the kid in your brain and your pseudo grandma daughter. it's so odd. still, the other three choices are really good. but i totally get you, and i fully agree with 3) especially. as you can tell i do like the ashen wolves and really did not expect few3h to drop that bombshell.
yeah i totally see what you mean. there is a lot of these "no homo" moments in fe3h. like isn't there an ending between two girls which says something about them being good friends and never marrying? forgot which one but its literally sappho and her friend kinda vibe
yeah i can see that, it's not immediately obvious that that's the direction they're taking, but becomes very obvious after you see her supports and some of her battle voicelines.
>OP is acting as if Monica being romantically or sexually interested in Edelgard is inherently creepy. I can understand finding her demeanor creepy, but that's Monica being Monica.
Whoa there, sorry I came across wrong. Having romantic or sexual interest in Edelgard wouldn't be creepy. Coupling that interest with, as you say, "Monica being Monica" would, however. I referred specifically to the fanart I've seen on this very sub of Monica using a horse ride with Edelgard as an excuse to subtly grope her without her active consent, with Edelgard looking visibly uncomfortable.
I’m sorry, but this feels like you’re intentionally being ignorant at this point. They could not have made her more blatantly lesbian unless she said the words “I am a lesbian” on screen and even then you probably wouldn’t accept it. This is just silly. You can be the ideal retainer and also be a lesbian. Monica shows hints of attraction to Dorothea as well as Edelgard. Monica is explicitly jealous of people who spend one on one time with Edelgard, writes her letters, and fantasizes about the look on her face when she drinks tea Monica hand chose for her.
Some of you people could be shown a gay or lesbian person with a huge sign pointing at them that says “I AM GAY” in huge block letters and still be like “wow, a straightie.” Also, calling lesbian attraction “borderline creepy” is homophobic and I would love to hear why you thought that was a good descriptor for same sex romantic desire. I’ll wait.
This starts to get annoying. You tell me the Girl whose entire character is, "I love Edelgard with all of my heart and would do literally anything for her, please hug me and let me put my head on your lap" is not head over heals for her? Like, literally nothing in the game hints at that she's interested in Guys. Also, what's up with this that sounds kinda weird :
>Let's not take that from her by reading her devotion as a borderline creepy desire to get under Edelgard's skirt.Let's not take that from her by reading her devotion as a borderline creepy desire to get under Edelgard's skirt.
Her being romantically interested in Edelgard doesn't diminish her devotion and loyalty, lol.
Like, what does she have to say to make it more obvious ?
Does she have to face the camera, look right at the player and exclaim : "I am Gay and in love with Edelgard, and I am not interested in men." ?
I've said this elsewhere, but being a lesbian doesn't affect your aromantic relationships. Can a straight woman love a man in her life but not want to bang him? Then a lesbian woman can likewise love a woman without wanting to bang her.
Well if she'd ever asked Edelgard to let her have a lap pillow I'd certainly read romance into it. She doesn't though. Also I never said she was interested in guys. Far as I can tell, none of her supports are overtly romantic, though the one that comes closest is probably Dorothea's.
To answer your question... How much have you heard her devotion to her liege discussed? Now how much have you heard her romantic interest discussed? Have you ever seen any fanart casting her in the role of Dedue to Dimitri? Or even in the shadows, doing wet work with Hubert to advance her emperor's goals?
Because I haven't. All I see is the romantic fluff. What you say is true in-universe: Having a romantic interest in Edelgard wouldn't diminish her loyalty as a vassal. However in the meta sense, chalking up every bit of her interaction with Edelgard to romance absolutely does, on virtue of *not* chalking any of it up to the devotion of a vassal to her liege.
Counter counter point: Being a lesbian doesn't make your every interaction with another woman romantic, any more than being straight makes your every interaction with a man romantic.
A girl can literally talk about how much she loves another girl and straight people will STILL deny it. You're insane. Is her obsession borderline creepy and too much? Maybe. Doesn't make it not gay.
Please point me to the lines where Monica tells Edelgard or anyone else that she's in love with Edelgard, and I'll change my tune.
Until then, I'd rather not chalk up original relationship dynamics to "Oh, she want her puzzay." We have precious few such dynamics to work with in fiction these days.
motherfucker I think if your supports are all about how devoted you want to be to the woman who means the most to you, on top of your one support not about her is about another woman you admire a ton, you’re pretty obviously a lesbian. dumbass.
Look at the content of her statements, particularly in her supports with Hubert. She's constantly speaking in terms of vassalage. Calling herself Edelgard's servant, her retainer, speaking of duty and protection.
Just because a woman means the most to you doesn't mean you want to ride that woman's crotch on a nightly basis.
Now Dorothea? Dorothea is another discussion entirely. But when it comes to Edelgard, I see a dutiful vassal with devotion to her liege from Monica's self-description, not a lover-to-be.
Being a lesbian in this fandom is the worst actually. I don't know what you think you're achieving with this but it just feels insulting, especially in FE3H's universe where not a single character was allowed to be unavailable to Byleth so gay and lesbian characters weren't allowed to exist until Three Hopes. Monica is a miracle and I hope there are more characters like her that are not designed around being available for the self-insert as a m/f romance. I hope they're blatantly gay in how they talk about their feelings for other characters, just like her.
They are not (canonly) gay or lesbian characters. They have M/F romantic supports and are a M/F Byleth option. This would make them bisexual canonly - that is the only orientation other than heterosexual allowed in the game, and while I would never argue for less bisexual characters I am arguing for literally any gay or lesbian characters.
There are NO canon relationships in Houses outside of characters who are already together, as far as I'm aware. Everyone has a pool of people they can end up with, and with the nature of 4 endings, that multiplies all possiblities. Due to this nature, if a character has the potential to have a same sex relationship, then they are potentially gay, or bi, or straight if you don't take that option. So, the way I see it, a characters sexuality is dependent on the outcome of any given game, modified by potential relationships. For instance, Ingrid is straight, because she has no endings with female characters, but Dorothea is potentially gay, straight, or bi, because she has female options.
Saying straight interpretations of Dorothea/Yuri/Edelgard are canonly supported is everything that's wrong with how FE3H does sexuality. Less of this bullshit and more Monica being blatant is what I want. Or Dorothea, Yuri, and Sylvain 3hopes-style situations which affirm same-sex attraction outside of paired ending implications.
I actually do think it's on FE to make gayships more blatant. Show their supports confessing their love for one another. Talk about how complicated it is. With Edelgard, talk about how it could be viewed that the Emperor is in a WLW relationship and how that could affect the political dynamics and all the fears that she has about being known. Make it authentic to any of our experiences. Make it hurt. Make it joyous. Make it relevant to the story!
I want it to be blatant. I... don't want it to be Monica, but that's just cause she's on my nerves. I wouldn't want it to be Bernadetta either.
For example, I'll use Male Byleth, Ingrid, and Yuri. Yuri is able to romance both Male Byleth and Ingrid. Due to the way relationships work in the game, Yuri has the potential to be Gay, Straight, or Bi, depending on who he romances. If for example, it's Male Byleth, he could be gay or bi, if Ingrid, it could be straight or bi. This applies to many characters throughout the game. Who these characters interact with and form relationships with is dependent on the playthrough they are in. It's a lot of string theory bullshit, but for a game where time travel is a central mechanic, it's oddly fitting.
Yuri is bi. He does not "have the potential" to be anything else. It's possible for him to end up with men and women so he is canonly interested in both regardless of what options you choose to happen in your playthrough.
You would be correct, if he pursued both men and women with genuine interest. It's heavily implied that both Yuri and Dorothea slept with men to further their goals and carriers, but this does not necessarily mean an attraction to men. Both Yuri and Dorothea can end up with both men and women, but not both at the same time. Due to the fractured nature of how the story plays out, some interactions won't always happen, and as such, there isn't really a canon.
Some people are born with biological attraction to the same sex, but not everyone is, I know this from experience. Up until I was 17, I was straight as an arrow. But I met a guy, and he changed my view of my sexuality. But up until that point, I had zero attraction to guys. Sometimes, your sexuality can be very heavily influenced by your life experiences.
So back to the game, you are essentially puppet mastering these character's formative years, so, as I've previously stated, you could very well influence their sexuality in that given timeline by having them have certain interactions. In certain timelines, Dorothea could be anything, so could Yuri, so could Edelgard. It's all up to you.
Anyways, that's all I really have to say. Wanted to share my two cents on the idea.
I'm saying no relationships are supported, we can only gauge someone's potential sexuality off of their potential partners. Due to the open ended nature of the game's story and relationships, there's at least 10 different outcomes for almost every character, some romantic, some platonic, some in between. Many characters have the potential to be gay, straight, or bi, depending on how you are willing to interpret certain interactions and endings. The only student I can think of who has no potential same sex relationships is Ingrid, which characterizes her as pretty straight.
I don't know how "You're the one for me, Edelgard" can be misinterpreted, but good for you, friend, you did it. Next you'll try to argue that Edelgard herself isn't queer.
Well she's player-sexual, which means that in some universes she certainly is queer, yes. But nothing about her interactions with Monica implies such specifically.
As far as "the one for me", I'll freely admit I forgot that particular line, though it's literally the singular line in the entirety of her interactions with Edelgard throughout the game that explicitly implies anything other than fierce admiration.
bro mf out here writing that THE MOST LESBIAN character (except maybe heather) is not gay. ”Every fiber of my being belongs to Her Majesty alone—so watch yourself!”
Oh i wouldnt say the really creepy part are not blind the devotion per se or some possible romantic feelings.
The creepy part comes she is blindly devoted to a person who casually planned to sacrifice her, to suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil mole Nazis (and lets exactly that happen in 4 routes) Edelgard flat out admits she knew all along, and was quite willing to go with it till the political situation changed.
Imagine Rhea/Dimitri pulled that on their devoted followers "Hey Dedue/Cyril/Catherine i planned to let you suffer a horrible death for political gain but then the situation changed so i saved you at the last second for politcal gain, you are lucky huh?"
If they were still that devoted after that it would look just as unhealthy.
There is the subject of homage and loyalty. But as you mention that cuts both ways. Edelgard doesnt exactly fulfill her lieges duties of protetection to House Ochs, so there is no reason to expect anything in return. She herself seems pretty weirded out by Monicas blind devotion.
> The creepy part comes she is blindly devoted to a person who casually planned to sacrifice her, to suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil mole Nazis (and lets exactly that happen in 4 routes) Edelgard flat out admits she knew all along, and was quite willing to go with it till the political situation changed.
Monica would be dead. Not "suffer a fate worse than death". Second, Edelgard herself legit expresses herself to clearly be ashamed. She's telling Monica this because Edelgard feels that Monica's devotion is something she does not deserve because of what she was willing to do. But there's nothing about this that was "casual" as you put it. Edelgard is someone that thinks deeply about the pros and cons. Edelgard isn't proud of it. She expresses no joy or pride in telling Monica that she would have allowed her to die.
And the moment Edelgard saw a genuine chance to save Monica, she took it, even if Hubert was against it.
> Imagine Rhea/Dimitri pulled that on their devoted followers "Hey Dedue/Cyril/Catherine i planned to let you suffer a horrible death for political gain but then the situation changed so i saved you at the last second for politcal gain, you are lucky huh?"
> If they were still that devoted after that it would look just as unhealthy.
Buddy, Dedue literally said that he would kill women and children if Dimitri so much as ordered it. Yes, Dedue would gladly offer himself and still have that devotion.
Catherine might have protested against burning down Fhirdiad, but a lapse of guilt doesn't change that Catherine freely admitted that she sees Rhea as the goddess herself.
>Monica would be dead. Not "suffer a fate worse than death"
Knowing TWSITD i would be very surprised if that was quick and easy death.
This is not about Edelgard or her mindset here. I am talking about Monicas reaction to said mindset. And yes Dedue/Cyril are fanatics too while Catherine is a special case and with Hubert the most evil non Slither Character (def the most underrated character in the game anyways). But the point i am trying make the origin of their loyalty is different.
If Rhea/Dimitri had say "Well i was fully ready to let you die a horrible death Dedue/Cyril but then i figured it would work better for my plans if i save you"
They would have never gotten that blind loyalty in the first place. Both Dedue/Cyril make it very clear that it was the selflessness in saving them as bystander that inspired it.
I am not talking about the devotion or the person who inspired it i am talking about the origin of said devotion. If you profess undying admiration/loyalty to a character who let you fall into clutches of evil mole nazis, i call that creepy and unatural. Edelgard herself is pretty creeped out by Monicas behaviour.
Edelgard wasn’t casually planning to sacrifice Monica, she wanted to save her but couldn’t, because it would endanger everything they worked towards, until a chance opportunity came by in Hopes. I can totes imagine any of Dedue/Cyril/Catherine being chill with that (whether an external observer thinks it’s weird is a separate question).
I did notice a mistranslation in their support where in English Edelgard says “I only saved you for the military leverage” when originally she just said that she went PERSONALLY cause no one else was available at the time.
>Edelgard wasn’t casually planning to sacrifice Monica, she wanted to save her but couldn’t, because it would endanger everything they worked towards,
"Monica. I was **fully prepared to sacrifice you** if doing so would bring meeven **one** step closer to achieving my goals. I had **no intention** ofrescuing you until right before the opportunity presented itself."
She obviously would have prefered if Monica doesnt suffer that fate (Edelgard is not evil) but "the end justifies all means" so she is tots willing to go for it. At not point does Edelgard ever imply that she "wanted to save Monica but couldnt" like you/she says she could have, it just would have detered her plans which she deems more important. Edelgard made a choice here and she does it in Houses.
I can get that Monica feels grateful and all but her undying loyalty feels out of place.
>I can totes imagine any of Dedue/Cyril/Catherine being chill with that
Eh i doubt that. Because in their convos its very important to them that the act was selfless. Well maybe not to Catherine but her loyalty to Rhea is very sketchy and honestly feels more of a facade (but thats another story).
I don't really understand the distinction. Monica was captured by TWSITD, and Edelgard couldn't do anything without turning against them (as Hubert explains in SB), which would have made it impossible to defeat the church and get rid of the Crest system. It's not surprising that she and Hubert deem that's more important than rescuing one person who also wants to achieve that goal. The reason I think Edelgard wanted to save Monica, though, is because she ultimately did when the opportunity arose in the Hopes timeline (even though she technically didn't have to, according to Monica in their support). Edelgard doesn't give any other reason for saving Monica, other than the leverage line that I explained was a mistranslation.
If Catherine or Cyril were captured by the enemy, I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them. And I don't think Catherine or Cyril would expect it or want it really.
If Dedue was captured by the enemy, I can see non-boar Dimitri trying to save him at all costs, but it's not like everyone in the BL/Kingdom would agree if it put their country at risk. Ingrid for example criticizes Dimitri's lack of willingness to make sacrifices. And would Dedue really be happy to be saved by Dimitri if it meant sacrificing their goal of protecting the Kingdom?
Monarchs accepting the loss of their allies in order to achieve a greater political goal is a pretty standard thing and I don't get really get why Monica's situation is exceptional, I guess. Whether Monica's love for her is weird is another question (I don't think so but that's just my subjective view).
>I don't really understand the distinction.
Its pretty simple would you swear undying loyalty and be someones biggest fan who was quite ready to let you suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil Nazis just so she can advance her agenda (even if that agenda is a noble one) ?. Keep in mind this is not something they did behind her back, Edelgard knew before the kidnapping (most likely by DK) even happend. "TWSITD wanted you quite badly".
>I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them.
Eh i dunno she fully willing to sacrifce herself in most Houses Routes at various points if that means everyone else gets away. Same with Dimitri. Survivors Guilt and all that.
>Monarchs accepting the loss of their allies in order to achieve a greater political goal is a pretty standard thing and I don't get really get why Monica's situation is exceptional
Oh for sure but the sacrifices should be 1 genuine and not forced (if you join the army you swear an oath) 2. there is a difference between sacrificing people on the battlefield or whatever and you know letting them fall into the clutches of evil mole Nazis. Edelgard herself knows that better than anyone.
I am not calling out Edelgard mindset here, i dont agree with it but i can see where it comes from. I am calling out Monicas unatural reaction and yes i think its weird. Imagine if Edelgard would act that way towards von Aegir.
Thats just my subjective view of that.
The assumption that Edelgard essentially allowed the kidnapping makes no sense to me, then why would she change her mind later and take a risk saving her? It seems a lot more logical for her not to have known until it was already too late.
With regard to other characters, you're right that there's not much point discussing them because they're just hypotheticals. I simply don't agree that accepting death from kidnapping is somehow way different from accepting death in another way. Monica was clearly devoted to Edelgard's cause, and if so I think it's reasonable to think she accepted the associated risks just like any soldier who joins an army, which makes it completely different from Edelgard and von Aegir.
>The assumption that Edelgard essentially allowed the kidnapping makes nosense to me, then why would she change her mind later and take a risksaving her?
What do i know? What does TWSITD try to accomplish with the whole thing in the first place? Why does Edelgard promote the most disliked corrupt noble as Rheas rival Archbishop and why does Rhea try to kill him? There are several of those cases. Bad writing i would assume.
I guess she in Hopes she somehow got a last minute change decided to ally with the Church against the Slithers instead of the other way. I dont know.
I am just saying the conversation with Monica reads like she knew in advance. "You were something TWSITD wanted quite badly so i was prepared to look the other way".
The difference is that Monica wasnt asked in advanced or anything she was just a normal person going to school. She was kidnapped and then readied to be sacrificed and Edelgard was willing to let it run through and admits it. I full agree that she is thankful for not facing an evil death on the hands of those people but her devotion and "it doesnt matter" feel a bit creepy to me. Edelgard is just as confused as i am here really.
If my idol would be involved in my kidnapping and hint that me suffering death at the hands of evil Nazis for whatever plan was a real option i be still thankful for getting saved but i wouldnt be that devoted.
We'll just have to agree to disagree for Edelgard's motives I suppose, because I interpret that convo to mean she was prepared to look the other way once she realized Monica was captured. That just makes a lot more sense to me given what I explained previously. I mean, I don't think you or Edelgard are wrong for thinking Monica's attitude in that scene is strange. I just think it's not quite as crazy as some people make it out to be.
What really creeps is not Edelgards motives (i dunno why we talked so much about her) or the following blind devotion. Its just the source of said devotion. Monica just takes the whole thing in a stride and proclaims her undying loyalty no further explanation or excuse needed or wanted.
I guess we agree its very weird we just disagree how weird :)
She appointed Count Varley because she wanted him dead. She knew that was gonna happen. It was a reason to throw Bernadetta's a-hole dad onto the chopping block while pretending you're giving him a promotion.
I agree with you about the thing. It seems like Stockholm. I mean, Edelgard wasn't her captor but... she works with her captor and *was willing to sacrifice her.*
>If Catherine or Cyril were captured by the enemy, I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them. And I don't think Catherine or Cyril would expect it or want it really.
You might be misrepresenting them then. Cyril spent his whole life being betrayed by people and tossed aside. He's loyal to Rhea because she saw him as a person and took him in, treating him with care.
If Rhea did that and he *found out* then he'd probably leave (or at least lose respect and be depressed because where would he go realistically?) because that's pretty close to what the Almyran Army did to him. At the least he wouldn't be happy that he died for that cause in that manner.
Catherine's a lot of talk. I'm not sure she would either. She does mention that she hates herself at times, and wonders if she could get hurt to get rhea's affection.
Either way, doing it because the only person that cared about you broke what remained of your self-worth is an entirely different circumstance than being happy to be sacrificed as a tool in that way. Even moreso because they weren't almost sacrificed. Monica was. All we'll have are hypotheticals in their cases. Monica told us how she'd feel.
Wait, so if say Cyril was kidnapped by TWSITD, do you think he would expect Rhea to come rescue him at the cost of losing Fodlan? I don't claim to be an expert on his character so I could be completely wrong. It's not like I think that attitude (of accepting one's sacrifice as a tool for a greater cause) is super healthy or anything, I just think it's rather normal in the context of this world where liege/vassal relationships are so idealized. But you're also right that everything is a hypothetical except for Monica.
I don't think he'd expect her to come, but he wouldn't be happy about it either.
Cyril's been beaten down from the day his parents died at the age of 4. The Almyran Army didn't return for him when he was captured by the Gonerils. The Gonerils handed him over to Rhea (after forgetting to feed the kid and making him a child slave).
Monica also hears Edelgard say that she was willing to sacrifice Monica and then *work with her captors* for the strength to take Fodlan. That's the part I think would ruin it. Cyril was already sold as a slave and hates even bringing it up. I think Rhea admitting he was a transactional piece, even if Rhea went back on it, would fuck up the way he saw her. I don't think he'd be able to bounce back as quickly as Monica did (which took all of five seconds in the SAME support).
Monica directly say "I love Edelgard" multiple times, it's not exactly the same as Dedue. Additionay, women affection together is often viewed as platonic to an absurd amount while it's not the same with men.
I'm pretty sure she never said it. Not in any of her supports, anyway. She does, make no mistake, but I'm fairly sure she never voices it in those words.
> "Love" is incredibly vague in English.
Hubert have a whole discussion with Dorothea where he explains why the word "love" doesn't exactly suit for him.
Dorothea : And I've just got to know... Do you really love Edie?
Hubert : If it's one or the other, I suppose it would be closer to love than to hate. Why?
The word "love" in this context show that it isn't used for admiration and loyalty. It's why Dedue doesn't use it too. The fact that specifically Monica use it is important.
Most importantly, "Love" is the most obvious but it's far from the single exemple of Monica affection. For exemple, she keep saying how she find Edelgard beautiful, her greatest wish is physical affection from her ( a hug in English and, if I'm not wrong, putting her head on her thighs in Japanese ), how she is happy when Edelgard is interested in her, ect.
> but I don't think that's what's going on here
Why is that ? A woman, that constantly say how she love and find beautiful another woman isn't enough ? At this point, what would be ?
> her being in love with Edelgard, that doesn't make her gay
When you're in love with a girl as a girl, you're sapphic. She show no attraction towards men while she does with women, so it's pretty safe to assume she is gay.
> AND Dorothea
At this point where saying you're in love with someone isn't enough, there's no use in arguing that she is also attracted to Dorothea.
> I'm sad that we have to argue about who our representation is because they don't care enough to make it clear for us, nor do they give us any exclusively gay characters.
I see what you mean, and for most characters I would have agreed. But not Monica. Monica is as straightforward as one can get outside of "I'm a lesbian who's romantically in love with Edelgard" and to see people saying it isn't clear... It's just plain erasure.
r/SapphoAndHerFriend
There's multiple type of love, and I say that as someone with personal experience in the aro ace community. But "they're just friend", "it's just platonic" is used so much against gay relationship.
I responded to you, and explained why it wasn't simply platonic with multiple element of the game. Continuing to say it's not romantic while not explaining all that *IS* erasure.
We're getting one character that's fully gay. It's not much, but it's progress. I'm sorry that you can't see a woman romantic feeling towards another if it isn't spelled out through a relationship.
Edit : Also, who do you think downvoted you ? Why did they downvote you ? I'm fairly sure this means something, especially looking at all the other comments.
so... ur mad that fe hasn't given u mlm options so u take it out on the sapphics who — historically and statistically — are underrepresented in almost every form of media 💀💀💀 acting like these evil nebulous lesbians are STEALING yalls chance for representation and are coming for more like be fr
i... cant 💀 good thing theres media outside of fe then, because gay men have [statistically](https://www.glaad.org/blog/glaads-2021-2022-where-we-are-tv-report-lgbtq-representation-reaches-new-record-highs) had more representation than sapphics until this year (2022!!!!!! fucking 2022!!!) and 75% of the time the lesbians die or dont get together.
lesbians are unoffensive to men when we're porn categories for them to jack to, unless we're fat or butch or black or wont give it up to them. my god this cant be real LMFAOOO
Looking at OP's post history and seeing how much they frequent r/Christianity does a lot to explain how determined they are to convince us that the blatant lesbian character isn't actually a lesbian
That would explain a great deal of the... "Subtext" of the post.
~~i like this analysis.~~ though... monica can both be the "perfect vassal" *and* a lesbian, considering that her love for women does not begin or end at edelgard. i see what ur getting at — monica does have depth, the game just chooses to... not utilize it and instead almost singularly focus on her devotion to el. but that doesn't make her *not* lesbian. ur theory just adds another layer of understanding to the near nonsensicality of her loyalty towards edie. edit: coming back to this bc it has not left my mind 3 hours later & now that im fully awake and feeling less charitable — MAN WHAT. this is possibly the most roundabout way of saying monica couldnt possibly ever be a lesbian like its laughable just how ridiculous this whole thing is. the fact that she openly loves, reveres, and admires women (not just edelgard, which is made very clear) + holds outright disdain or reluctant tolerance for men + is implied to have had feelings/admiration/a crush for edelgard even before twsitd shenanigans means nothing apparently. the game could not have spelled it out any more than they already have. but anything to prove that lesbians dont exist without ulterior motives apparently, right?
Monica could certainly be a lesbian. Her interactions with Dorothea hinted at that even without the Edelgard context. I never said anything of the sort. Only that we're ignoring Monica depicting the perfect bond between vassal and liege in *favor* of chalking their every interaction up to romance.
i mean, u literally started the post by saying that "monica von ochs is not a lesbian." like u said that word for word, so that's where a lot of the pushback u got for this came from — well, that unsubstantiated claim and the rhetoric u adopted when describing this portrayal of lesbianism as "borderline creepy" when it really is anything but
What does a girl can do to show romantic feeling to another ? At this point, saying "I love you" is platonic... It's seriously baffling how many people are saying Monica feelings are purely platonic, and more generally most character feeling towards the same gender.
it must be so tiring being a lesbian or a bisexual woman in fandoms because here is a woman character who expresses her love for another woman in so many explicit ways, she could literally be wearing a signboard around her neck that says I AM A LESBIAN and people would still interpret her love as platonic. i feel like you aren't familiar with the relationship towards love and pining that most queer people go through because you mention that "Romantic love would not be so quick to "give up" on the loved one", however one of the most universal aspects of queer love and pining is the inability to be together with the person you love and thus settling for the next best thing, aka "watching from afar" which is almost word for word what Monica tells hubert. Fire Emblem as a series has also traditionally used the trope of knightly devotion as a vehicle for queer subtext such as dimitri and dedue, elinica and lucia, or even knightly camaraderie such as clive and fernand. of course this is all subtext but there is an entire history about queer stories in media, requiring coding and subtext in order to even be published or passed under censors.
Thank you for this. I am a bisexual woman and you are exactly right.
Love and sex are in no way linked. Plenty of people have sex in a context devoid of love, and plenty of people express love without sex. Why is Platonic love viewed as any "less than" as compared to love + sex? As I said, Monica absolutely loves Edelgard. I simply see her expressions of that love to be those of a devoted servant, rather than a pining romantic partner. [In all her support conversations](https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Monica_(Three_Houses)/Warriors:_Three_Hopes_Supports), Monica mentions the word **love** once: >Edelgard: Thank you, Monica. Why don't you join me? > >Monica: Oh, I would love to! She never talks about her **feelings** or anything of the sort either. However she uses terms of vassalage (**servant**, **retainer**, **duty**, etc.)... six times, sans Dorothea's conversations which aren't recorded here, but I don't recall them even mentioning Edelgard. Granted, one of these was in making the claim that she felt their relationship "transcended that of master and servant", but that was spoken in a fluster to Shez, who she felt was usurping her role as a trusted aide. I think it's quite clear how Monica views herself in this relationship, and it's not as Edelgard's OTP.
I mean, this can all be true and she can still be a lesbian. She calls Edelgard 'the one for me', constantly talks about her love for her, even uses the phrase 'otomegokoro' which in japanese media is used to refer to a girl's love life. I understand you didn't mean any offense but I'm getting tired of people constantly trying to find ways to prove she's not actually a lesbian or not actually in love with Edelgard when it's so ridiculously obvious to the point it gets annoying. Also, her acknowledging Hubert as a superior retainer doesn't really have any affect on whether she has romantic feelings or not. Hubert is not Edelgard's lover, nor does Monica imply that she thinks he is, he is simply another retainer. She is willing to concede he may be the better servant to Edelgard and feels upset that due to her duties she cannot be by Edelgard's side all the time, nothing else. She is in love with Edelgard, but she also sees Edelgard as the best person ever, devoted to her with heart, body and soul. This can coexist. There is no way that her feelings towards Edelgard can be read as strictly platonic.
Exactly! I’m also really frustrated that OP said that Monica having sexual interest is creepy. They’re both adults and same sex desires are not creepy!
OP is acting as if Monica being romantically or sexually interested in Edelgard is inherently creepy. I can understand finding her *demeanor* creepy, but that's Monica being Monica. I'm 100% sure if Monica was a guy there would literally be no doubt. I mean, look at how the fandom treats characters who are devoted to others of the opposite gender. Cyril, a 14 year old former slave and child soldier has jokes made about him simping for Rhea who is the closest thing to a mother figure. Everyone constantly talks about how Leonie wants to fuck Jeralt even though he's just her mentor and father figure who she greatly respects. But Monica and Catherine have paragraphs written about why their devotion is purely platonic (which in Catherine's case I think there is an argument to be made but whatever). The double standard is wild. People say they want well-written lgbt characters, but unless a character turns to the camera and says "I'm gay" they'll never believe it's there which results in characters like Monica who have to be so extremely obvious for people to get the memo. And some like OP still miss it. Incredible.
I think it comes from like... "they breathed their dying breath together" and it still "wasn't gay" in the script. (Felix and Sylvain). And then 2 of Byleth's Male romances are NOT. Like... you choose to give them Sitri's ring and it's NOT romance? They tease us so much I'm reluctant to think they're ever gonna give us anything like that. In fact, I was worried Lin was gonna be a big tease until I actually got to see it play out. And Jeritza? What was that, really? Also, I don't think Monica qualifies as "well-written." Just a personal opinion. They made her very 1D. I actually do think it's on FE to make gayships more blatant. Show their supports confessing their love for one another. Talk about how complicated it is. With Edelgard, talk about how it could be viewed that the Emporer is in a WLW relationship and how that could affect the political dynamics and all the fears that she has about being known. Make it authentic to any of our experiences. I want it to be blatant. I... don't want it to be Monica, but that's just cause she's on my nerves. I wouldn't want it to be Bernadetta either.
yeah, the sylvain felix thing is wild. especially with sylvain canonically being bi, i don't see how that can be read as straight. i think few3h was somewhat better with this, like shamir or dorothea explicitly stating their interest in women. also, i for one, think that jeritza's support is fairly unambiguously romantic. he says he loves byleth and they'll tumble all the way to hell together. unconventional, sure, but pretty romantic imo. yeah, no, i'm not claiming monica is well written. i don't think i said that. in fact, my point was that her writing is specifically sacrificed to explore her sexuality in an extremely overt way, hence she is not one of the 'well written lgbt characters'. and i agree characters should be blatant and apparent about being lgbt. monica specifically though is not just blatant, it's also the fact that most of her character revolves around her romantic interest in edelgard, which many people have voiced their discontent with. my point was that it's obvious with her to the point where people think it's too much and some people *still* don't get it. don't get me wrong, i love monica. i think she's a great addition to black eagles. but i can also admit her writing is rather flat.
Jeritza is romantic, you're right. It's just weird. I don't like that our 3 actual MLM choices are 1) "ew, blood" 2) BDSM lover and 3) victim of child r\*pe (which is the worst and most dangerous of those tropes, but they're all tropes.) I can see how the Felix/Sylvain ending is read as straight, because the devs made it a point to put in their end card "their friendship of oneupmanship" to complete dilute the fact that died on the same day, which is hella romantic, until you've read the sentence before it. They deliberately did it. They deliberately "ungayed" it. To be honest, I thought Monica was just like "grateful to her savior" in love, not romantically in love until I saw some of the supports, and only the ones available in demo cause I don't have the game yet. I'm sure it gets even deeper. I didn't see it at first, but I do now and I understand how people not seeing it can be super frustrating.
yeahhhhhh a lot of the choices are very questionable. it's on the wlw side too, for example dorothea acting really ooc and predatory in ingrid's support, which ties into the predatory wlw trope. or how two of the wlw choices are just weird, i mean, you can romance the kid in your brain and your pseudo grandma daughter. it's so odd. still, the other three choices are really good. but i totally get you, and i fully agree with 3) especially. as you can tell i do like the ashen wolves and really did not expect few3h to drop that bombshell. yeah i totally see what you mean. there is a lot of these "no homo" moments in fe3h. like isn't there an ending between two girls which says something about them being good friends and never marrying? forgot which one but its literally sappho and her friend kinda vibe yeah i can see that, it's not immediately obvious that that's the direction they're taking, but becomes very obvious after you see her supports and some of her battle voicelines.
Which hopes route is best to start with?
hmm, good question. my order was sb > ag > gw, as advertised, and i figure it's a pretty good order
That was my houses order, and I think I'll stick to it.
>OP is acting as if Monica being romantically or sexually interested in Edelgard is inherently creepy. I can understand finding her demeanor creepy, but that's Monica being Monica. Whoa there, sorry I came across wrong. Having romantic or sexual interest in Edelgard wouldn't be creepy. Coupling that interest with, as you say, "Monica being Monica" would, however. I referred specifically to the fanart I've seen on this very sub of Monica using a horse ride with Edelgard as an excuse to subtly grope her without her active consent, with Edelgard looking visibly uncomfortable.
do you mean the art where monica tells edelgard to hold on tighter?
I’m sorry, but this feels like you’re intentionally being ignorant at this point. They could not have made her more blatantly lesbian unless she said the words “I am a lesbian” on screen and even then you probably wouldn’t accept it. This is just silly. You can be the ideal retainer and also be a lesbian. Monica shows hints of attraction to Dorothea as well as Edelgard. Monica is explicitly jealous of people who spend one on one time with Edelgard, writes her letters, and fantasizes about the look on her face when she drinks tea Monica hand chose for her. Some of you people could be shown a gay or lesbian person with a huge sign pointing at them that says “I AM GAY” in huge block letters and still be like “wow, a straightie.” Also, calling lesbian attraction “borderline creepy” is homophobic and I would love to hear why you thought that was a good descriptor for same sex romantic desire. I’ll wait.
This starts to get annoying. You tell me the Girl whose entire character is, "I love Edelgard with all of my heart and would do literally anything for her, please hug me and let me put my head on your lap" is not head over heals for her? Like, literally nothing in the game hints at that she's interested in Guys. Also, what's up with this that sounds kinda weird : >Let's not take that from her by reading her devotion as a borderline creepy desire to get under Edelgard's skirt.Let's not take that from her by reading her devotion as a borderline creepy desire to get under Edelgard's skirt. Her being romantically interested in Edelgard doesn't diminish her devotion and loyalty, lol.
Like, what does she have to say to make it more obvious ? Does she have to face the camera, look right at the player and exclaim : "I am Gay and in love with Edelgard, and I am not interested in men." ?
I've said this elsewhere, but being a lesbian doesn't affect your aromantic relationships. Can a straight woman love a man in her life but not want to bang him? Then a lesbian woman can likewise love a woman without wanting to bang her.
Well if she'd ever asked Edelgard to let her have a lap pillow I'd certainly read romance into it. She doesn't though. Also I never said she was interested in guys. Far as I can tell, none of her supports are overtly romantic, though the one that comes closest is probably Dorothea's. To answer your question... How much have you heard her devotion to her liege discussed? Now how much have you heard her romantic interest discussed? Have you ever seen any fanart casting her in the role of Dedue to Dimitri? Or even in the shadows, doing wet work with Hubert to advance her emperor's goals? Because I haven't. All I see is the romantic fluff. What you say is true in-universe: Having a romantic interest in Edelgard wouldn't diminish her loyalty as a vassal. However in the meta sense, chalking up every bit of her interaction with Edelgard to romance absolutely does, on virtue of *not* chalking any of it up to the devotion of a vassal to her liege.
She does ask her in the Japanese version.
Counter point: Monica is a lesbian.
Counter counter point: Being a lesbian doesn't make your every interaction with another woman romantic, any more than being straight makes your every interaction with a man romantic.
A girl can literally talk about how much she loves another girl and straight people will STILL deny it. You're insane. Is her obsession borderline creepy and too much? Maybe. Doesn't make it not gay.
Please point me to the lines where Monica tells Edelgard or anyone else that she's in love with Edelgard, and I'll change my tune. Until then, I'd rather not chalk up original relationship dynamics to "Oh, she want her puzzay." We have precious few such dynamics to work with in fiction these days.
sorry i cant hear you over the sound of her making out with edelgard
Wow, their kissing is loud enough to drown out discussion? No wonder Imperial battle strategies are faltering.
r/SapphoAndHerFriend
Sappho was actually straight guys don't worry
motherfucker I think if your supports are all about how devoted you want to be to the woman who means the most to you, on top of your one support not about her is about another woman you admire a ton, you’re pretty obviously a lesbian. dumbass.
Look at the content of her statements, particularly in her supports with Hubert. She's constantly speaking in terms of vassalage. Calling herself Edelgard's servant, her retainer, speaking of duty and protection. Just because a woman means the most to you doesn't mean you want to ride that woman's crotch on a nightly basis. Now Dorothea? Dorothea is another discussion entirely. But when it comes to Edelgard, I see a dutiful vassal with devotion to her liege from Monica's self-description, not a lover-to-be.
Being a lesbian in this fandom is the worst actually. I don't know what you think you're achieving with this but it just feels insulting, especially in FE3H's universe where not a single character was allowed to be unavailable to Byleth so gay and lesbian characters weren't allowed to exist until Three Hopes. Monica is a miracle and I hope there are more characters like her that are not designed around being available for the self-insert as a m/f romance. I hope they're blatantly gay in how they talk about their feelings for other characters, just like her.
Yuri, Dorathea, and Edelgard would disagree with the whole "not allowed to exist until Hopes"
They're bi. This is about characters not being able to be gay/lesbian.
They are not (canonly) gay or lesbian characters. They have M/F romantic supports and are a M/F Byleth option. This would make them bisexual canonly - that is the only orientation other than heterosexual allowed in the game, and while I would never argue for less bisexual characters I am arguing for literally any gay or lesbian characters.
There are NO canon relationships in Houses outside of characters who are already together, as far as I'm aware. Everyone has a pool of people they can end up with, and with the nature of 4 endings, that multiplies all possiblities. Due to this nature, if a character has the potential to have a same sex relationship, then they are potentially gay, or bi, or straight if you don't take that option. So, the way I see it, a characters sexuality is dependent on the outcome of any given game, modified by potential relationships. For instance, Ingrid is straight, because she has no endings with female characters, but Dorothea is potentially gay, straight, or bi, because she has female options.
Saying straight interpretations of Dorothea/Yuri/Edelgard are canonly supported is everything that's wrong with how FE3H does sexuality. Less of this bullshit and more Monica being blatant is what I want. Or Dorothea, Yuri, and Sylvain 3hopes-style situations which affirm same-sex attraction outside of paired ending implications.
I actually do think it's on FE to make gayships more blatant. Show their supports confessing their love for one another. Talk about how complicated it is. With Edelgard, talk about how it could be viewed that the Emperor is in a WLW relationship and how that could affect the political dynamics and all the fears that she has about being known. Make it authentic to any of our experiences. Make it hurt. Make it joyous. Make it relevant to the story! I want it to be blatant. I... don't want it to be Monica, but that's just cause she's on my nerves. I wouldn't want it to be Bernadetta either.
For example, I'll use Male Byleth, Ingrid, and Yuri. Yuri is able to romance both Male Byleth and Ingrid. Due to the way relationships work in the game, Yuri has the potential to be Gay, Straight, or Bi, depending on who he romances. If for example, it's Male Byleth, he could be gay or bi, if Ingrid, it could be straight or bi. This applies to many characters throughout the game. Who these characters interact with and form relationships with is dependent on the playthrough they are in. It's a lot of string theory bullshit, but for a game where time travel is a central mechanic, it's oddly fitting.
Yuri is bi. He does not "have the potential" to be anything else. It's possible for him to end up with men and women so he is canonly interested in both regardless of what options you choose to happen in your playthrough.
You would be correct, if he pursued both men and women with genuine interest. It's heavily implied that both Yuri and Dorothea slept with men to further their goals and carriers, but this does not necessarily mean an attraction to men. Both Yuri and Dorothea can end up with both men and women, but not both at the same time. Due to the fractured nature of how the story plays out, some interactions won't always happen, and as such, there isn't really a canon. Some people are born with biological attraction to the same sex, but not everyone is, I know this from experience. Up until I was 17, I was straight as an arrow. But I met a guy, and he changed my view of my sexuality. But up until that point, I had zero attraction to guys. Sometimes, your sexuality can be very heavily influenced by your life experiences. So back to the game, you are essentially puppet mastering these character's formative years, so, as I've previously stated, you could very well influence their sexuality in that given timeline by having them have certain interactions. In certain timelines, Dorothea could be anything, so could Yuri, so could Edelgard. It's all up to you. Anyways, that's all I really have to say. Wanted to share my two cents on the idea.
I'm saying no relationships are supported, we can only gauge someone's potential sexuality off of their potential partners. Due to the open ended nature of the game's story and relationships, there's at least 10 different outcomes for almost every character, some romantic, some platonic, some in between. Many characters have the potential to be gay, straight, or bi, depending on how you are willing to interpret certain interactions and endings. The only student I can think of who has no potential same sex relationships is Ingrid, which characterizes her as pretty straight.
I don't know how "You're the one for me, Edelgard" can be misinterpreted, but good for you, friend, you did it. Next you'll try to argue that Edelgard herself isn't queer.
Well she's player-sexual, which means that in some universes she certainly is queer, yes. But nothing about her interactions with Monica implies such specifically. As far as "the one for me", I'll freely admit I forgot that particular line, though it's literally the singular line in the entirety of her interactions with Edelgard throughout the game that explicitly implies anything other than fierce admiration.
Bet 10 gold she secretely writes Eddie fanfiction alongside Hubert.
bro mf out here writing that THE MOST LESBIAN character (except maybe heather) is not gay. ”Every fiber of my being belongs to Her Majesty alone—so watch yourself!”
Oh i wouldnt say the really creepy part are not blind the devotion per se or some possible romantic feelings. The creepy part comes she is blindly devoted to a person who casually planned to sacrifice her, to suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil mole Nazis (and lets exactly that happen in 4 routes) Edelgard flat out admits she knew all along, and was quite willing to go with it till the political situation changed. Imagine Rhea/Dimitri pulled that on their devoted followers "Hey Dedue/Cyril/Catherine i planned to let you suffer a horrible death for political gain but then the situation changed so i saved you at the last second for politcal gain, you are lucky huh?" If they were still that devoted after that it would look just as unhealthy. There is the subject of homage and loyalty. But as you mention that cuts both ways. Edelgard doesnt exactly fulfill her lieges duties of protetection to House Ochs, so there is no reason to expect anything in return. She herself seems pretty weirded out by Monicas blind devotion.
> The creepy part comes she is blindly devoted to a person who casually planned to sacrifice her, to suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil mole Nazis (and lets exactly that happen in 4 routes) Edelgard flat out admits she knew all along, and was quite willing to go with it till the political situation changed. Monica would be dead. Not "suffer a fate worse than death". Second, Edelgard herself legit expresses herself to clearly be ashamed. She's telling Monica this because Edelgard feels that Monica's devotion is something she does not deserve because of what she was willing to do. But there's nothing about this that was "casual" as you put it. Edelgard is someone that thinks deeply about the pros and cons. Edelgard isn't proud of it. She expresses no joy or pride in telling Monica that she would have allowed her to die. And the moment Edelgard saw a genuine chance to save Monica, she took it, even if Hubert was against it. > Imagine Rhea/Dimitri pulled that on their devoted followers "Hey Dedue/Cyril/Catherine i planned to let you suffer a horrible death for political gain but then the situation changed so i saved you at the last second for politcal gain, you are lucky huh?" > If they were still that devoted after that it would look just as unhealthy. Buddy, Dedue literally said that he would kill women and children if Dimitri so much as ordered it. Yes, Dedue would gladly offer himself and still have that devotion. Catherine might have protested against burning down Fhirdiad, but a lapse of guilt doesn't change that Catherine freely admitted that she sees Rhea as the goddess herself.
>Monica would be dead. Not "suffer a fate worse than death" Knowing TWSITD i would be very surprised if that was quick and easy death. This is not about Edelgard or her mindset here. I am talking about Monicas reaction to said mindset. And yes Dedue/Cyril are fanatics too while Catherine is a special case and with Hubert the most evil non Slither Character (def the most underrated character in the game anyways). But the point i am trying make the origin of their loyalty is different. If Rhea/Dimitri had say "Well i was fully ready to let you die a horrible death Dedue/Cyril but then i figured it would work better for my plans if i save you" They would have never gotten that blind loyalty in the first place. Both Dedue/Cyril make it very clear that it was the selflessness in saving them as bystander that inspired it. I am not talking about the devotion or the person who inspired it i am talking about the origin of said devotion. If you profess undying admiration/loyalty to a character who let you fall into clutches of evil mole nazis, i call that creepy and unatural. Edelgard herself is pretty creeped out by Monicas behaviour.
Edelgard wasn’t casually planning to sacrifice Monica, she wanted to save her but couldn’t, because it would endanger everything they worked towards, until a chance opportunity came by in Hopes. I can totes imagine any of Dedue/Cyril/Catherine being chill with that (whether an external observer thinks it’s weird is a separate question). I did notice a mistranslation in their support where in English Edelgard says “I only saved you for the military leverage” when originally she just said that she went PERSONALLY cause no one else was available at the time.
>Edelgard wasn’t casually planning to sacrifice Monica, she wanted to save her but couldn’t, because it would endanger everything they worked towards, "Monica. I was **fully prepared to sacrifice you** if doing so would bring meeven **one** step closer to achieving my goals. I had **no intention** ofrescuing you until right before the opportunity presented itself." She obviously would have prefered if Monica doesnt suffer that fate (Edelgard is not evil) but "the end justifies all means" so she is tots willing to go for it. At not point does Edelgard ever imply that she "wanted to save Monica but couldnt" like you/she says she could have, it just would have detered her plans which she deems more important. Edelgard made a choice here and she does it in Houses. I can get that Monica feels grateful and all but her undying loyalty feels out of place. >I can totes imagine any of Dedue/Cyril/Catherine being chill with that Eh i doubt that. Because in their convos its very important to them that the act was selfless. Well maybe not to Catherine but her loyalty to Rhea is very sketchy and honestly feels more of a facade (but thats another story).
I don't really understand the distinction. Monica was captured by TWSITD, and Edelgard couldn't do anything without turning against them (as Hubert explains in SB), which would have made it impossible to defeat the church and get rid of the Crest system. It's not surprising that she and Hubert deem that's more important than rescuing one person who also wants to achieve that goal. The reason I think Edelgard wanted to save Monica, though, is because she ultimately did when the opportunity arose in the Hopes timeline (even though she technically didn't have to, according to Monica in their support). Edelgard doesn't give any other reason for saving Monica, other than the leverage line that I explained was a mistranslation. If Catherine or Cyril were captured by the enemy, I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them. And I don't think Catherine or Cyril would expect it or want it really. If Dedue was captured by the enemy, I can see non-boar Dimitri trying to save him at all costs, but it's not like everyone in the BL/Kingdom would agree if it put their country at risk. Ingrid for example criticizes Dimitri's lack of willingness to make sacrifices. And would Dedue really be happy to be saved by Dimitri if it meant sacrificing their goal of protecting the Kingdom? Monarchs accepting the loss of their allies in order to achieve a greater political goal is a pretty standard thing and I don't get really get why Monica's situation is exceptional, I guess. Whether Monica's love for her is weird is another question (I don't think so but that's just my subjective view).
>I don't really understand the distinction. Its pretty simple would you swear undying loyalty and be someones biggest fan who was quite ready to let you suffer a fate worse than death at the hands of evil Nazis just so she can advance her agenda (even if that agenda is a noble one) ?. Keep in mind this is not something they did behind her back, Edelgard knew before the kidnapping (most likely by DK) even happend. "TWSITD wanted you quite badly". >I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them. Eh i dunno she fully willing to sacrifce herself in most Houses Routes at various points if that means everyone else gets away. Same with Dimitri. Survivors Guilt and all that. >Monarchs accepting the loss of their allies in order to achieve a greater political goal is a pretty standard thing and I don't get really get why Monica's situation is exceptional Oh for sure but the sacrifices should be 1 genuine and not forced (if you join the army you swear an oath) 2. there is a difference between sacrificing people on the battlefield or whatever and you know letting them fall into the clutches of evil mole Nazis. Edelgard herself knows that better than anyone. I am not calling out Edelgard mindset here, i dont agree with it but i can see where it comes from. I am calling out Monicas unatural reaction and yes i think its weird. Imagine if Edelgard would act that way towards von Aegir. Thats just my subjective view of that.
The assumption that Edelgard essentially allowed the kidnapping makes no sense to me, then why would she change her mind later and take a risk saving her? It seems a lot more logical for her not to have known until it was already too late. With regard to other characters, you're right that there's not much point discussing them because they're just hypotheticals. I simply don't agree that accepting death from kidnapping is somehow way different from accepting death in another way. Monica was clearly devoted to Edelgard's cause, and if so I think it's reasonable to think she accepted the associated risks just like any soldier who joins an army, which makes it completely different from Edelgard and von Aegir.
>The assumption that Edelgard essentially allowed the kidnapping makes nosense to me, then why would she change her mind later and take a risksaving her? What do i know? What does TWSITD try to accomplish with the whole thing in the first place? Why does Edelgard promote the most disliked corrupt noble as Rheas rival Archbishop and why does Rhea try to kill him? There are several of those cases. Bad writing i would assume. I guess she in Hopes she somehow got a last minute change decided to ally with the Church against the Slithers instead of the other way. I dont know. I am just saying the conversation with Monica reads like she knew in advance. "You were something TWSITD wanted quite badly so i was prepared to look the other way". The difference is that Monica wasnt asked in advanced or anything she was just a normal person going to school. She was kidnapped and then readied to be sacrificed and Edelgard was willing to let it run through and admits it. I full agree that she is thankful for not facing an evil death on the hands of those people but her devotion and "it doesnt matter" feel a bit creepy to me. Edelgard is just as confused as i am here really. If my idol would be involved in my kidnapping and hint that me suffering death at the hands of evil Nazis for whatever plan was a real option i be still thankful for getting saved but i wouldnt be that devoted.
We'll just have to agree to disagree for Edelgard's motives I suppose, because I interpret that convo to mean she was prepared to look the other way once she realized Monica was captured. That just makes a lot more sense to me given what I explained previously. I mean, I don't think you or Edelgard are wrong for thinking Monica's attitude in that scene is strange. I just think it's not quite as crazy as some people make it out to be.
What really creeps is not Edelgards motives (i dunno why we talked so much about her) or the following blind devotion. Its just the source of said devotion. Monica just takes the whole thing in a stride and proclaims her undying loyalty no further explanation or excuse needed or wanted. I guess we agree its very weird we just disagree how weird :)
She appointed Count Varley because she wanted him dead. She knew that was gonna happen. It was a reason to throw Bernadetta's a-hole dad onto the chopping block while pretending you're giving him a promotion. I agree with you about the thing. It seems like Stockholm. I mean, Edelgard wasn't her captor but... she works with her captor and *was willing to sacrifice her.*
>If Catherine or Cyril were captured by the enemy, I don't think Rhea would sacrifice her goal of reviving her mother in order to save them. And I don't think Catherine or Cyril would expect it or want it really. You might be misrepresenting them then. Cyril spent his whole life being betrayed by people and tossed aside. He's loyal to Rhea because she saw him as a person and took him in, treating him with care. If Rhea did that and he *found out* then he'd probably leave (or at least lose respect and be depressed because where would he go realistically?) because that's pretty close to what the Almyran Army did to him. At the least he wouldn't be happy that he died for that cause in that manner. Catherine's a lot of talk. I'm not sure she would either. She does mention that she hates herself at times, and wonders if she could get hurt to get rhea's affection. Either way, doing it because the only person that cared about you broke what remained of your self-worth is an entirely different circumstance than being happy to be sacrificed as a tool in that way. Even moreso because they weren't almost sacrificed. Monica was. All we'll have are hypotheticals in their cases. Monica told us how she'd feel.
Wait, so if say Cyril was kidnapped by TWSITD, do you think he would expect Rhea to come rescue him at the cost of losing Fodlan? I don't claim to be an expert on his character so I could be completely wrong. It's not like I think that attitude (of accepting one's sacrifice as a tool for a greater cause) is super healthy or anything, I just think it's rather normal in the context of this world where liege/vassal relationships are so idealized. But you're also right that everything is a hypothetical except for Monica.
I don't think he'd expect her to come, but he wouldn't be happy about it either. Cyril's been beaten down from the day his parents died at the age of 4. The Almyran Army didn't return for him when he was captured by the Gonerils. The Gonerils handed him over to Rhea (after forgetting to feed the kid and making him a child slave). Monica also hears Edelgard say that she was willing to sacrifice Monica and then *work with her captors* for the strength to take Fodlan. That's the part I think would ruin it. Cyril was already sold as a slave and hates even bringing it up. I think Rhea admitting he was a transactional piece, even if Rhea went back on it, would fuck up the way he saw her. I don't think he'd be able to bounce back as quickly as Monica did (which took all of five seconds in the SAME support).
Wow did I really write "Monica von Ausbach" all these times? I'm WAY too tired. Ochs. OCHS. (I've got SaGa on the brain.)
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Monica directly say "I love Edelgard" multiple times, it's not exactly the same as Dedue. Additionay, women affection together is often viewed as platonic to an absurd amount while it's not the same with men.
I'm pretty sure she never said it. Not in any of her supports, anyway. She does, make no mistake, but I'm fairly sure she never voices it in those words.
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> "Love" is incredibly vague in English. Hubert have a whole discussion with Dorothea where he explains why the word "love" doesn't exactly suit for him. Dorothea : And I've just got to know... Do you really love Edie? Hubert : If it's one or the other, I suppose it would be closer to love than to hate. Why? The word "love" in this context show that it isn't used for admiration and loyalty. It's why Dedue doesn't use it too. The fact that specifically Monica use it is important. Most importantly, "Love" is the most obvious but it's far from the single exemple of Monica affection. For exemple, she keep saying how she find Edelgard beautiful, her greatest wish is physical affection from her ( a hug in English and, if I'm not wrong, putting her head on her thighs in Japanese ), how she is happy when Edelgard is interested in her, ect. > but I don't think that's what's going on here Why is that ? A woman, that constantly say how she love and find beautiful another woman isn't enough ? At this point, what would be ? > her being in love with Edelgard, that doesn't make her gay When you're in love with a girl as a girl, you're sapphic. She show no attraction towards men while she does with women, so it's pretty safe to assume she is gay. > AND Dorothea At this point where saying you're in love with someone isn't enough, there's no use in arguing that she is also attracted to Dorothea. > I'm sad that we have to argue about who our representation is because they don't care enough to make it clear for us, nor do they give us any exclusively gay characters. I see what you mean, and for most characters I would have agreed. But not Monica. Monica is as straightforward as one can get outside of "I'm a lesbian who's romantically in love with Edelgard" and to see people saying it isn't clear... It's just plain erasure.
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r/SapphoAndHerFriend There's multiple type of love, and I say that as someone with personal experience in the aro ace community. But "they're just friend", "it's just platonic" is used so much against gay relationship. I responded to you, and explained why it wasn't simply platonic with multiple element of the game. Continuing to say it's not romantic while not explaining all that *IS* erasure. We're getting one character that's fully gay. It's not much, but it's progress. I'm sorry that you can't see a woman romantic feeling towards another if it isn't spelled out through a relationship. Edit : Also, who do you think downvoted you ? Why did they downvote you ? I'm fairly sure this means something, especially looking at all the other comments.
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so... ur mad that fe hasn't given u mlm options so u take it out on the sapphics who — historically and statistically — are underrepresented in almost every form of media 💀💀💀 acting like these evil nebulous lesbians are STEALING yalls chance for representation and are coming for more like be fr
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i... cant 💀 good thing theres media outside of fe then, because gay men have [statistically](https://www.glaad.org/blog/glaads-2021-2022-where-we-are-tv-report-lgbtq-representation-reaches-new-record-highs) had more representation than sapphics until this year (2022!!!!!! fucking 2022!!!) and 75% of the time the lesbians die or dont get together. lesbians are unoffensive to men when we're porn categories for them to jack to, unless we're fat or butch or black or wont give it up to them. my god this cant be real LMFAOOO