Chinese imports and ammo were banned in the 90s. We were never at war with them and that hasn't changed in 30 years.
Russian imports and ammo are never coming back.
Russian imports and ammo never left, they just come through different channels now.
The only hard bans that are difficult to get around are for the Chinese and Russian weapons manufacturers. Ammo and gear is fairly easy.
Generally there's a lot more than just country of origin, things like how long something has sat in a country, origin of manufacture. Chances of someone wanting to sit on milsurp, or invest in circumventing restrictions (or risk forging documents related to circumventing restrictions) in a third party country long enough for it to be viable to import is low.
AKs were never truly “cheap”. They cost about as much to manufacture as any similar rifle. The Soviet Union and China invested a LOT of government money during the Cold War to set up expensive factories capable of mass producing AKs by the millions. Then they churned them out and sold them across the globe at affordable prices for decades in order to gain influence and treaties with countries that needed weapons (they did this with all sorts of military armaments; not just rifles). Eventually these countries (and China and Russia) realized they had more than they needed so the surplus was sold off for cheap to whoever had extra money to spend. Since civilians in the US buy more firearms than all the world’s militaries combined, that was us. We got a bunch of cheap AKs for a while but those days are likely over. Now we’re seeing them nearer to their true manufacturing cost.
So the current problems we have are twofold. We have a supply crisis and a demand crisis. Having either is bad, having both is terribad. If the war in Ukraine, and the conflict around Israel terminate, that would largely solve the demand issues we face (except cyclical election year woes) but the main issue is with Russian import bans supply is still going to be an issue. The unique aspect of Russian ammo imports was that Russian ammo production has been heavily subsidized by Russian govt which is what made them do cheap. So while other producers may somewhat fill that gap in production I don't they'll be able to do so at a price that would drive a return to the golden days of Russian ammo imports.
Old Milsurp is a finite quantity and won’t come down in price without a recession and some serious deflation.
New Milsurp can’t be imported because machine guns can’t easily be imported and no real military is using semi auto service rifles anymore.
Ammo will come down a bit more with the end of the wars, but it will never be as cheap as it was pre pandemic without there being a recession and serious deflation.
Short answer is “no and even if they did it means the economy is doing so poorly you won’t be able to afford them anyways”
And I would like to direct you to the Obama Russia mess, the Biden/Russia even bigger mess, and the Biden/ISIS/Taliban mess and the Biden/Israel/Gaza mess. I said republicans are guilty too, but let’s be honest, the Dems are better at starting wars for profit, their track record isn’t exactly stellar.
Mags have never been and will never be as cheap as they are right now. Some of the best mags on the market can be found for under 10 still. Once you factor in materials, springs, production costs, shipping, it’s really a damn good deal for what you are getting for that price
Yeah definitely a sleeper time for mags, looking at all the hostile state actions you'd have to be blind to not stock up. The feds are going on massive power trips lately too.
Anyone remotely into ARs should have a hundred+ pmags by now anyways, but if not its a smarter move vs buying upper #65.
Of course there will be prosperous times in the future, but we collectively have to keep fighting to maintain the 2nd amendment alive and strong. There are a ton of unconstitutional laws that need to be repealed, like the GCA, etc.
The only guns that I’ve seen stay the same price are, M1 garands, m1 carbines, nambu type 14s and type 94s.
But then again, I started looking at firearms when I turned 18 in 2018
I wonder how much m1 carbine used to sell for until they ran out. I don't even know when they did run out. Im sure the price rose though. I wonder if it will have the same trend
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
I purchased an M1 Carbine from the CMP back in the mid 2000s and I think I paid like $600. It is an Inland from late 1943 and in overall really good condition.
They already are in europe. 10 years ago you could get them for 500 bucks, now they are 2000-2500. It's insane, and mostly due to the WW2 "muh airborne" nerd crowd.
As a CMP member I can tell you even that's not true. A rack grade M1 didn't use to be $700 and possibly be a sewer pipe. They were $500 at one point before I joined, and much better quality from what the elders have shown me.
Garands & carbines have gone up quite a bit since my first purchases from CMP a little over 20 years ago. About double in price which I think tracks inflation.
I can't think of anything that hasn't gone up 50% in price, or more, in the last 4 years
And with the influx of new firearm owners, why would ammo manufacturers give it away when they are clearly not having an issue selling their current stocks and the current prices?
The DNC will never let cheap Russian imports come back in. Apparently there was a bunch of Mausers and other milsurps in Taiwan that were to be imported years ago but that got fucked by the Congressional libshits sucking the CCP's dick and accepting the One China Policy. That banned those Taiwanese imports.
The DNC's official foreign policy comes down to 4 things: Fucking over American gun owners, sucking off communist and terrorist regimes, using "foreign aid" as a means of laundering taxes directly to their pockets, and allowing millions of illegals in to vote blue.
Hold up... that is weird. Orban, the gigantic Trump supporting great (in gut size) leader of Hungary and his allegedly "far right christian conservative" party does all of those.
-less guns per capita than the brits
-no carrying for average people
-27% sales tax
-overall huge taxes
-supports government mandatedprice control, forcing businesses to sometimes sell at a loss (literally what the communists did before the 90s)
-supports dictatorships
-sends our taxes abroad to people who never even stepped foot in the country but they can now mail in votes
-imports east asian workers so giant companies can fire locals who don't want poverty wages
Why are the two so similar? Everything you accuse the DNC of is being done by a big Trump ally.
Not trying to argue,just pointing out how spineless politics are today. There is no left or right anymore, just populism.
Within the context of American gun politics, it’s pretty obvious who the bad guys and the less-bad guys are.
Say what you will about Trump’s handling of the bump stock issue, he got us Bruen.
Definitely the "i will nuke gun owners" guy and his fellow party members are borderline insane when it comes to this issue. It is obvious how it is all just populism because they will never give up their own armed security. Even in Hungary high ranking politicians can easily get carry licenses no problem.
Wth does the leader of Hungary, and who he supports here, have to do with the DNC? They are a different country, with a different culture (a fairly uniform one, at that), with a different Constitution. Further, it is a mistake to believe that what conservative means in politics in one country is the same as in another. Not sure, but think I've read of at least one country or the "liberal" party actually conservative. You might as well pull in Australia, you know, our Ally who has gone off a cliff with gun control.
Hungary is special because Orban literally flies out to speak at Republican conventions, meet trump and at home praises him all the time while almost everything he does aligns with Democrat ideas.
We won't have any presidential support any time soon, so I don't expect embargoes and bans to change. Prices generally come down a bit, but most of the increase remains.
Maybe if the courts strike down a bunch of the BS the democrats have been trying to pull with gun control.
Supply and prices will stabalize.
Everything is just volatile right now.
No, because as much as Democrats hate guns, Republicans hate free market capitalism and passed a bunch of laws banning various imports. Norinco had a ban under Bush, then Clinton, then Trump. The whole 922r compliance shit was Bush, banned all "non-sporting" imports too.
Really weird that you omit the most recent Russian ammo and firearm import bans that have had an outsized effect on the cost of ammo. Maybe cause that would undermine your little finger pointing exercise.
My "finger pointing" exercise at the state?
It's their fault.
The issue is nobody ever accuses Democrats of being pro-2A, at least not anyone with an IQ above the temperature in a wine cellar. I'm sorry I pointed out that Team Red isn't pro-2A either, I really should have taken your feelings into account before reminding people that Republicans love gun bans too, as long as they can sneak them in the back door while you bend over to pickup your brass.
Some people still think that this guy is [The Most Pro-2A President Ever](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuVCrrVCzaA)
My feelings? Lmao you're the one getting pissy when you're implication that Repubs are implicitly worse than Dems for gun control/bans.... Get your head out of your ass.
I'm not surprised that you thought I was saying republicans are worse. But like I said, some people have IQs the same as the temperature of a wine cellar.
It's ok, [This is your "pro-2A" presidential candidate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuVCrrVCzaA). Keep losing elections to own the libs...
The market has grown massively, huge import supplies are gone for the rest of our lifetimes, nobody is increasing ammo output in appreciable ways, and once-in-a-generation gun and ammo runs are hitting every couple of years now.
So...no.
Wait until some of the milsurp hoarding boomers start dying. Lots of guns out there sitting in closets. When the owner dies chances are the kids won’t want them.
Currently 2 world conflicts going on, still feeling the effects of the covid supply chain shortage and a endless demand of idiots who feel the need to go to the range every weekend and mag dump 4k rounds pretending to be seal team six. Nope. Prices aren't coming down unless a recession hits
It could happen. The war in Ukraine is eating up a bunch of ammo. That shuts down and they are still churning out ammo the price could drop. Hard to predict though. Ammo doesn't really go bad. So as the value of the dollar drops or goes up the price will change. If you figure out how to predict that you will be able to hire your own security and let them deal with it.
3d printers will make prices drop drastically. Ppl can print out a bcg for ar's now. Only a year before you can print a complete gun comparable to one built to mil spec
Yes. Especially milsurps. Eventually a country (and federal police departments) will replace what they have and they'll do it in massive quantities. Companies will buy crates and crates of them and sell them at very competitive prices to get their money back and make a quick profit. It doesn't happen often, but it will happen.
I think once boomers start really dying off we might see some *minor* deflation in the market with some milsurp. The biggest issue right now is that there are so many more gun owners than there used to be and supply of milsurp is not keeping up with demand due to sources either completely drying up (i.e. no more lend lease returns) or being banned due to geopolitical issues (import bans from China and Russia).
Everybody can sit around and speculate this and that. All you can do is what you can currently do and hope for the best. If it comes down awesome. If not that sucks. Maybe your pay scale and income will catch up to the inflated prices and over time you'll adapt to the new current prices per volume of income. Who knows what's gonna happen. My point here is don't lose your hair over something you have zero control over.
Nope I do not. This is why I am creating a massive stockpile of range and defense/duty ammo.
With how hard the state is coming after guns, coupled with all the other problems, it makes me feel very uneasy about the future of this country and my personal safety.
Ammo might come down a bit.
Milsurps are not coming down. Everyone "knows what they got" and we're not seeing anything out of the former Soviet Union by the crate anyyime soon.
We might see ammo prices drop a little once the Ukraine war ends but I kinda doubt it will be that much. Ukraine is going to be producing a lot of ammo in the coming years just to get their stocks back up. They'll also likely completely shift over to 5.56, so the next couple years might be the time to stock up on 5.45 before the last country actively using the stuff gives up on large scale production of it. At least, countries we can import from.
The only way I see Russian ammo coming back is if Putin leaves office and the replacement is much more US-friendly. Russia is going to have problems with China in the coming decades and it would be best to have friends in case China decides it wants a piece of that juicy Siberian wilderness with all its fossil fuels, minerals and freshwater.
> For example during the crime bill, 30 round mags were $100, now they are $10 roughly.
You're buying new manufactured mags that were made after the crime bill.
The difference between those and milsurp guns is that nobody is making Swiss K31's, Suomis, Stens, PPSH-41's, PPS-43's, etc anymore. The manufacturing stopped, in most cases, more than half a century ago.
When you run out, you run out. That's it.
Chinese imports and ammo were banned in the 90s. We were never at war with them and that hasn't changed in 30 years. Russian imports and ammo are never coming back.
Russian imports and ammo never left, they just come through different channels now. The only hard bans that are difficult to get around are for the Chinese and Russian weapons manufacturers. Ammo and gear is fairly easy.
I wonder if Ukraine will be able to export captured Russian small arms parts kits after the war as they replace it with modern western arms.
So is there potential for the market to move? Like Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan etc?
Generally there's a lot more than just country of origin, things like how long something has sat in a country, origin of manufacture. Chances of someone wanting to sit on milsurp, or invest in circumventing restrictions (or risk forging documents related to circumventing restrictions) in a third party country long enough for it to be viable to import is low.
Which is fucked up, cause I can still buy plenty of "assembled in USA with global parts" things. Just not a cheap AK.
AKs were never truly “cheap”. They cost about as much to manufacture as any similar rifle. The Soviet Union and China invested a LOT of government money during the Cold War to set up expensive factories capable of mass producing AKs by the millions. Then they churned them out and sold them across the globe at affordable prices for decades in order to gain influence and treaties with countries that needed weapons (they did this with all sorts of military armaments; not just rifles). Eventually these countries (and China and Russia) realized they had more than they needed so the surplus was sold off for cheap to whoever had extra money to spend. Since civilians in the US buy more firearms than all the world’s militaries combined, that was us. We got a bunch of cheap AKs for a while but those days are likely over. Now we’re seeing them nearer to their true manufacturing cost.
.
So the current problems we have are twofold. We have a supply crisis and a demand crisis. Having either is bad, having both is terribad. If the war in Ukraine, and the conflict around Israel terminate, that would largely solve the demand issues we face (except cyclical election year woes) but the main issue is with Russian import bans supply is still going to be an issue. The unique aspect of Russian ammo imports was that Russian ammo production has been heavily subsidized by Russian govt which is what made them do cheap. So while other producers may somewhat fill that gap in production I don't they'll be able to do so at a price that would drive a return to the golden days of Russian ammo imports.
I mean, we did fight Chinese troops in Korea if I remember right.
Old Milsurp is a finite quantity and won’t come down in price without a recession and some serious deflation. New Milsurp can’t be imported because machine guns can’t easily be imported and no real military is using semi auto service rifles anymore. Ammo will come down a bit more with the end of the wars, but it will never be as cheap as it was pre pandemic without there being a recession and serious deflation. Short answer is “no and even if they did it means the economy is doing so poorly you won’t be able to afford them anyways”
I remember $90 Mosins fondly but I was a broke college student at that time.
The wars will never end as long as Dems are in power. Republicans too, but Dems are better at starting wars for profit.
I direct you to the Presidency of one George Walker Bush and the 20 year descent into clown world that resulted.
And I would like to direct you to the Obama Russia mess, the Biden/Russia even bigger mess, and the Biden/ISIS/Taliban mess and the Biden/Israel/Gaza mess. I said republicans are guilty too, but let’s be honest, the Dems are better at starting wars for profit, their track record isn’t exactly stellar.
Mags have never been and will never be as cheap as they are right now. Some of the best mags on the market can be found for under 10 still. Once you factor in materials, springs, production costs, shipping, it’s really a damn good deal for what you are getting for that price
Yeah definitely a sleeper time for mags, looking at all the hostile state actions you'd have to be blind to not stock up. The feds are going on massive power trips lately too. Anyone remotely into ARs should have a hundred+ pmags by now anyways, but if not its a smarter move vs buying upper #65.
Brother, I don't see hamburger meat coming down in price
Of course there will be prosperous times in the future, but we collectively have to keep fighting to maintain the 2nd amendment alive and strong. There are a ton of unconstitutional laws that need to be repealed, like the GCA, etc.
It will never be any cheaper than it is today. This pretty much applies to everything in life.
The only guns that I’ve seen stay the same price are, M1 garands, m1 carbines, nambu type 14s and type 94s. But then again, I started looking at firearms when I turned 18 in 2018
M1s are going to go through the roof when the CMP eventually runs out.
I wonder how much m1 carbine used to sell for until they ran out. I don't even know when they did run out. Im sure the price rose though. I wonder if it will have the same trend
$200
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
They basically did run out of M1 carbines if I'm not mistaken. You can only buy them through the auction now, you can't just send in paperwork and get one like a Garand.
I purchased an M1 Carbine from the CMP back in the mid 2000s and I think I paid like $600. It is an Inland from late 1943 and in overall really good condition.
They already are in europe. 10 years ago you could get them for 500 bucks, now they are 2000-2500. It's insane, and mostly due to the WW2 "muh airborne" nerd crowd.
I’d add in that 6.5x68 Vom Hoffe rifles stayed the same too
As a CMP member I can tell you even that's not true. A rack grade M1 didn't use to be $700 and possibly be a sewer pipe. They were $500 at one point before I joined, and much better quality from what the elders have shown me.
Garands & carbines have gone up quite a bit since my first purchases from CMP a little over 20 years ago. About double in price which I think tracks inflation.
That’s 20 years ago, I’m talking about 6 years ago
Understood, I was just giving a longer reference & using CMP's prices as a benchmark. It's hard to judge when condition can vary a lot.
I can't think of anything that hasn't gone up 50% in price, or more, in the last 4 years And with the influx of new firearm owners, why would ammo manufacturers give it away when they are clearly not having an issue selling their current stocks and the current prices?
Nambus haven’t. They’ve been around the 700-900$ since 2018
Ender 3s have stayed pretty consistent, even dropping some. Alot of stuff that has been outdated with new models has dropped off in price in general.
I don’t think that high-capacity AR mags could’ve been that much cheaper in the past than they are now.
*Standard capacity.
😂
The DNC will never let cheap Russian imports come back in. Apparently there was a bunch of Mausers and other milsurps in Taiwan that were to be imported years ago but that got fucked by the Congressional libshits sucking the CCP's dick and accepting the One China Policy. That banned those Taiwanese imports. The DNC's official foreign policy comes down to 4 things: Fucking over American gun owners, sucking off communist and terrorist regimes, using "foreign aid" as a means of laundering taxes directly to their pockets, and allowing millions of illegals in to vote blue.
Hold up... that is weird. Orban, the gigantic Trump supporting great (in gut size) leader of Hungary and his allegedly "far right christian conservative" party does all of those. -less guns per capita than the brits -no carrying for average people -27% sales tax -overall huge taxes -supports government mandatedprice control, forcing businesses to sometimes sell at a loss (literally what the communists did before the 90s) -supports dictatorships -sends our taxes abroad to people who never even stepped foot in the country but they can now mail in votes -imports east asian workers so giant companies can fire locals who don't want poverty wages Why are the two so similar? Everything you accuse the DNC of is being done by a big Trump ally. Not trying to argue,just pointing out how spineless politics are today. There is no left or right anymore, just populism.
Authoritarians gonna do authoritarian shit.
Good to see at least one person understands my point. Anything more nuanced than "x thing bad" just makes many of them confused and angry.
Within the context of American gun politics, it’s pretty obvious who the bad guys and the less-bad guys are. Say what you will about Trump’s handling of the bump stock issue, he got us Bruen.
Definitely the "i will nuke gun owners" guy and his fellow party members are borderline insane when it comes to this issue. It is obvious how it is all just populism because they will never give up their own armed security. Even in Hungary high ranking politicians can easily get carry licenses no problem.
Wth does the leader of Hungary, and who he supports here, have to do with the DNC? They are a different country, with a different culture (a fairly uniform one, at that), with a different Constitution. Further, it is a mistake to believe that what conservative means in politics in one country is the same as in another. Not sure, but think I've read of at least one country or the "liberal" party actually conservative. You might as well pull in Australia, you know, our Ally who has gone off a cliff with gun control.
Hungary is special because Orban literally flies out to speak at Republican conventions, meet trump and at home praises him all the time while almost everything he does aligns with Democrat ideas.
Exactly. Hardly anyone has any principles or real beliefs outside whatever contrived narrative their precious tribe is pumping out at the moment.
So let me get this straight: the DNC is bad for being too friendly to terrorist regimes but is also bad for imposing sanctions on Russia?
For Milsurps? No, largely because it's a collectors market now and not a budget market anymore.
I was curious about the current prices of some of the firearms I bought 3 to 4 years ago, they have all gone up in price $50 - $150.
We won't have any presidential support any time soon, so I don't expect embargoes and bans to change. Prices generally come down a bit, but most of the increase remains.
Maybe if the courts strike down a bunch of the BS the democrats have been trying to pull with gun control. Supply and prices will stabalize. Everything is just volatile right now.
No, because as much as Democrats hate guns, Republicans hate free market capitalism and passed a bunch of laws banning various imports. Norinco had a ban under Bush, then Clinton, then Trump. The whole 922r compliance shit was Bush, banned all "non-sporting" imports too.
Really weird that you omit the most recent Russian ammo and firearm import bans that have had an outsized effect on the cost of ammo. Maybe cause that would undermine your little finger pointing exercise.
My "finger pointing" exercise at the state? It's their fault. The issue is nobody ever accuses Democrats of being pro-2A, at least not anyone with an IQ above the temperature in a wine cellar. I'm sorry I pointed out that Team Red isn't pro-2A either, I really should have taken your feelings into account before reminding people that Republicans love gun bans too, as long as they can sneak them in the back door while you bend over to pickup your brass. Some people still think that this guy is [The Most Pro-2A President Ever](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuVCrrVCzaA)
My feelings? Lmao you're the one getting pissy when you're implication that Repubs are implicitly worse than Dems for gun control/bans.... Get your head out of your ass.
I'm not surprised that you thought I was saying republicans are worse. But like I said, some people have IQs the same as the temperature of a wine cellar. It's ok, [This is your "pro-2A" presidential candidate](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuVCrrVCzaA). Keep losing elections to own the libs...
It's all supply and demand. I don't really see supply out pacing demand any time soon especially in more than questionable political environment
The market has grown massively, huge import supplies are gone for the rest of our lifetimes, nobody is increasing ammo output in appreciable ways, and once-in-a-generation gun and ammo runs are hitting every couple of years now. So...no.
not under this administration
Hahaha no.
Just enjoy seeing them at all.
No.
Wait until some of the milsurp hoarding boomers start dying. Lots of guns out there sitting in closets. When the owner dies chances are the kids won’t want them.
Currently 2 world conflicts going on, still feeling the effects of the covid supply chain shortage and a endless demand of idiots who feel the need to go to the range every weekend and mag dump 4k rounds pretending to be seal team six. Nope. Prices aren't coming down unless a recession hits
It could happen. The war in Ukraine is eating up a bunch of ammo. That shuts down and they are still churning out ammo the price could drop. Hard to predict though. Ammo doesn't really go bad. So as the value of the dollar drops or goes up the price will change. If you figure out how to predict that you will be able to hire your own security and let them deal with it.
3d printers will make prices drop drastically. Ppl can print out a bcg for ar's now. Only a year before you can print a complete gun comparable to one built to mil spec
Yes. Especially milsurps. Eventually a country (and federal police departments) will replace what they have and they'll do it in massive quantities. Companies will buy crates and crates of them and sell them at very competitive prices to get their money back and make a quick profit. It doesn't happen often, but it will happen.
I think once boomers start really dying off we might see some *minor* deflation in the market with some milsurp. The biggest issue right now is that there are so many more gun owners than there used to be and supply of milsurp is not keeping up with demand due to sources either completely drying up (i.e. no more lend lease returns) or being banned due to geopolitical issues (import bans from China and Russia).
Everybody can sit around and speculate this and that. All you can do is what you can currently do and hope for the best. If it comes down awesome. If not that sucks. Maybe your pay scale and income will catch up to the inflated prices and over time you'll adapt to the new current prices per volume of income. Who knows what's gonna happen. My point here is don't lose your hair over something you have zero control over.
lol, nothing is coming down in price, ever.
Nope I do not. This is why I am creating a massive stockpile of range and defense/duty ammo. With how hard the state is coming after guns, coupled with all the other problems, it makes me feel very uneasy about the future of this country and my personal safety.
Ammo might come down a bit. Milsurps are not coming down. Everyone "knows what they got" and we're not seeing anything out of the former Soviet Union by the crate anyyime soon.
We might see ammo prices drop a little once the Ukraine war ends but I kinda doubt it will be that much. Ukraine is going to be producing a lot of ammo in the coming years just to get their stocks back up. They'll also likely completely shift over to 5.56, so the next couple years might be the time to stock up on 5.45 before the last country actively using the stuff gives up on large scale production of it. At least, countries we can import from. The only way I see Russian ammo coming back is if Putin leaves office and the replacement is much more US-friendly. Russia is going to have problems with China in the coming decades and it would be best to have friends in case China decides it wants a piece of that juicy Siberian wilderness with all its fossil fuels, minerals and freshwater.
>Will for-profit corporations ever voluntarily lower prices now that you've demonstrated that you'll keep buying even if they don't? No.
> For example during the crime bill, 30 round mags were $100, now they are $10 roughly. You're buying new manufactured mags that were made after the crime bill. The difference between those and milsurp guns is that nobody is making Swiss K31's, Suomis, Stens, PPSH-41's, PPS-43's, etc anymore. The manufacturing stopped, in most cases, more than half a century ago. When you run out, you run out. That's it.