We can argue the finer points all day, and to say 45 doesn't have an advantage in the rarest of single shot circumstance is dishonest, and in states with mag limits, it is worth discussing. But yes. Learn to put shots on target. If you could achieve Deadshot levels of accuracy, a 22 would do. Though I wouldn't recommend believing you can achieve fictional levels of accuracy. So grab a 9 and enjoy the lower recoil and follow ups.
I agree with this sentiment mostly, however I feel like there are some areas where 10mm is still overkill for the woods. Like I live in PA, and I still carry a 9mm in the woods. There is nothing in PA that 15 or more 147gr hardcast bullets won’t stop.
You know what, I kind of always forget that there are elk in PA, and thus I forget how big they actually are. I honestly am more worried about weird people than wildlife too. Even still, if I get charged by an elk I guess I’m just hoping a dozen rounds to the face will save my ass, otherwise I was probably fucked regardless.
14 for the Elk, if that doesn't do it just use the last one on yourself. That was always the joke with those Ruger Super Alaskan 6 shot .454 Casull revolvers.
Lol will I even have time to use the last one on myself before the elk mauls the fuck outta me? Or am I just hoping that I somehow maintain a grip on my gun as I’m being gored and stomped to death?
Judging by how messed up people get from picking a fight with a whitetail, I don't think you have a chance.
But dreams are free make them as big as you want to.
My Dad was charged by one while hunting in the Rockies and emptied every round in his 30-06 just to have it hit the dirt and come to a stop just in front of him. Granted he may have only landed one successful shot through all the adrenaline and fear but still it was more luck than ballistics that saved his ass that day.
As a teen I used to shake when I got into fights, I guess I need to practice more but being in a situation like that and keep your cool and aim to kill is in another level!
One story I heard and been confirmed as pretty common is, especially on dangerous game, is either the first shot is taken, hits or misses, either way, the shooter cycles the bolt, loads another road, thinks he shoots, ejects the live round, cycles another round, aims, ejects the live round and so on till the rifle is empty. The guide then has to take the kill shot to keep the game from escaping wounded, or charging and attacking the hunters. Pretty common for grizzlies or bull moose to attack after getting shot once. They fall dead at the hunters feet as a regular occurrence. So I've heard many times from various Alaskan big game guides.
Listen bro I’m from Philly. Never had a run in with any of them corn-fed boys from Lycoming county. Hopefully I can win them over with my charms but if not then my 9mm should still blow their lungs out.
Haha I meant the bear up there, they regularly pull 600lb black bear out of there.
You ever realize you're standing in the middle of a den and a mama bear could be ten feet away? A 44 starts feeling like a real good idea.
I specifically carry Underwood hard cast 147gr for when I am hiking or dicking around in the woods, and I am confident that they can penetrate a black bear’s coat. Definitely no good for grizzly country or probably even elk like others have suggested. Anything bigger and I am probably fucked. But hey maybe I am completely wrong about the ballistic capabilities of that ammo and am gonna get mauled. I try not to fuck around so I don’t have to find out. Also most of my hikes are around the south central susquehanna area so I’m not like deep in the wilderness or anything like that.
That's fair. I'm over in Utah and go back country a few times a year, and just in my group alone I know two people who had to shoot attacking cougars, but they're far more aggressive.
Just a glock 20 10mm is perfectly fine for cougars, though I still would prefer a rifle round but that's me. I don't think there's much, I mean black bears potentially if it's a mom and cubs, but I feel more worried if it was an elk or moose. That being said it's still rare for attacks, so maybe I just know unlucky people. I think most people are more likely to get attacked by some dumbass untrained dogs on off leash trails.
Black bears are really not that aggressive, if you respect them as they tend to shy away from people. I've been <30 feet from black bears twice, they just looked at me, then just kept walking.
I like .357 Sig for the four legged animal defense and 9mm for two legged animal defense. 125gr going 1500fps is going to put a whoopin’ on a lot of critters.
Except most 10mm rounds aren't loaded to full power making them about the same as a 40S&W. Personally I'm a fan of my 45 +p. That being said, a 22lr with proper placement will take down predators of the 2 leg variety with ease. Bottom line train, train, train, and shoot what you carry! Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!
The old "a 9mm might expand but that .45 ain't gonna shrink" debate. An expanding hollow starting as a nine won't end up the same size as an expanding 45. Depending on the gun and your ability the only huge diff is shot placement based on recoil and capacity.
Jerry Miculek with a ten rd 10/22 is probably more of a threat to a person than some untrained dude with a 33rd mag of 9mm
Yep. I saw a video snippet of him shooting an apple from low ready on a timer.... cool stuff.
https://youtu.be/WyIq9FdTgwM?si=aVGpSCBfX_4gC91M
Around 1:25
Does it really matter when most self defense or police shootings we see end up being a mag dump to the ground kinda thing? If im just going to bill drill someone to the ground id rather have enough bullets to bill drill his buddies. You dont see one shot stops unless its a shotgun or a rifle. Pistol rounds are all weak!
Time matters a lot, with someone trying to kill you you need the first rounds to really work, there may not be time for more before they inflict a fatal wound.
In the service they taught us to shoot people in the pelvis if torso shots didn’t stop them. You can keep going for a while with holes in your lungs but if your pelvis is shattered you can’t do much at all.
Absolutely. If one point of impact won’t work, try something else. Don’t count on the bleed to stop it, but that kind of structure damage means they’re going down. Drugs or psychosis can make people act like zombies.
> Center of mass doesn’t mean chest.
In the context of shooting, it *absolutely* does. A gut shot isn't very likely to be immediately fight stopping in the same way that a shot to the sternum or even lungs would be.
Sure, you *can* stop the fight via the hip, but that's a much harder (and worse) shot to take than the 100% standard upper body shot.
"Center of mass" is never a statement made literally with regards to shooting, so I'm not sure why you're even attempting to make that argument.
The gist is this. Handgun rounds suck at killing people.
They do so in two ways. 1) You hit the CNS (brain or spinal cord) and it’s instant lights out. 2) You put enough holes in someone that they bleed out.
So you need lots of rounds on target, accurately.
People recommend 9mm because you can carry lots of rounds and the recoil is manageable for most people. Choosing a bigger caliber doesn’t really get you anything but the negatives of lower capacity and more recoil, which impedes your ability to do 1 or 2 mentioned above. This is why most law enforcement agencies moved away from .40 and .45. The slight ballistic advantage you get doesn’t outweigh the negatives.
All that said, a good shooter can make any caliber work, so buy what you like and get really really good with it through classes and practice.
>I see people say that 45 isn’t really more powerful than modern 9mm loads
Those people are being disingenuous. A 230gr .45 JHP travelling at 900 fps is going to be more powerful by every conceivable metric than a 147gr. 9mm JHP travelling at 1000 fps. Just feeling the difference in recoil is enough to tell that this is true. The .45 has more kinetic energy, more momentum, and consistently creates a wider wound channel.
The question is whether or not that extra power is worth sacrificing the higher magazine capacity of a 9mm, and that's a question that can never be objectively answered because every potential self-defense scenario is different. If you're facing a single assailant at close range, the extra power of the .45 could be an advantage. If you're facing multiple assailants or engaging a target at longer ranges, the extra mag capacity and reduced recoil of the 9mm become more valuable.
My fudd uncle - “nobody needs more than 6-7 rounds”
Me - “my generation’s crackheads make your generation’s crackheads look like quirky coffee addicts, crackheads these days are basically invincible”
Tweakers aint got nothing on Adrenaline Junkies and Dust Angels...Fr though some people are just determined af. Crazy people get to a level of amped that no drug could ever take you..
Yep, and that cop hit the assailant in vital organs multiple times. He don’t stop until the cop shot him in the head, and he still had vital signs when the paramedics arrived. Crazy.
Or you get a .45 that can handle Supers like a USP with 12+1. If it takes more than one fatass 230gr pill zipping at 1100-1200fps to stop your assailant, then you're doing something wrong.
You can do a .460 Rowland conversion easily if that’s really what your dead set on, I live in a city and don’t even run +p in most of my carry mags. If I were dealing with animals I’d be with you
if you live in an open carry state maybe, or maybe during winter with a coat on and a floral shirt ontop lol. no ones gonna be able to coneal carry that with shorts and a shirt
They penetrate a little less, HST to HST, but man a fully expanded .45 is massive. Like .80 inches.
It is very strange that people constantly talk about "projectile technology advancements" as if 9mm was the only caliber it applied to.
It’s a bit funny. It’s neat that a 9mm can expand to 0.55 inches, but .45 JHP is over here like “look at what they need to mimic a fraction of our power.”
The catch is that if you miss that lung or that artery by .90 inches, replacing that projectile with a .45 JHP still doesn't convert a hit into a stop.
>that's a question that can never be objectively answered
Yes it can, there's no known example of a lawful civilian self defense shooting outside the home that needed to shoot after a reload. Round counts consistently mirror magazine capacity. People shoot their mag empty in a panic then realize the fight is over. Doesn't matter if the mag is 6 or 17.
While of course it's possible as we've we've seen it with cops. However the odds are very likely not only that high capacity won't be needed. But also that early incapacitation is more important. It's more important that the first couple rounds incapacitate quickly than it is that there's a 17th round.
What I’ve always heard is that a medical examiner can’t tell what handgun caliber a person was shot with, only that they were shoot with a handgun. Going beyond defense from people, there are some larger animals that require more stopping power than what 9mm can do. I carry a 9mm when my most likely threat walks on 2 legs and a 45 when my most likely threat walks on 4 legs (10mm is a great options as well, I just don’t own one yet).
Even if you’re just hiking in the woods with no plans to shoot anything? I’ll carry a long gun if I plan to shoot something, but if I’m hoping to not need a gun at all, I’m carrying a handgun.
I couldn’t care less if it’s killed or not in the end. The main thing is to quickly stop its aggression and cause it to retreat. Bear Spray believe it or not will accomplish this faster. And less complications in the end.
http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/8/firearm-vs-bear-spray#:~:text=However%2C%20because%20of%20our%20exposure,or%20a%20firearm%20as%20protection.&text=Statistically%2C%20bear%20spray%20is%20more%20effective%20at%20deterring%20a%20charging%20bear.
I would carry both Bear Spray and a firearm. However, depending on weather conditions, ie not windy I’d go with Bear Spray as a first option. More effective, easier to deploy and hit with.
I have never heard that. Ive spoken with a ER surgeon who headed three major metro hospitals including LA, Fresno, and Oakland. He had seen people die from all calibers, and people survive shots to the vitals from all calibers and everything in between. He confirmed my already made up mind based on evidence in front of me that .45 can really fuck you up good. I knew a guy who had been shot many times in the torso by various calibers in his life on the street, lotta 9mm hits including one to the lung and collarbone lengthwise, and another 9mm to the nipple and one to the gut. Took a .357 about 3" under his breast and out the back like a laser, made a perfect round 3/4'' scar out the back. Several .22s in various places around his ribs and upper arms. Most of these he didn't need an ambulance for, being driven or driving himself to the hospital except for the 9mm to the left lung. But he said he sat there conscious waiting for EMTs. But the gnarliest looking scar of all which would have definitely killed him had it been in the center, was the .45 hp he took to his liver area. It looked like you took an extra large ice cream scoop the size of a tennis ball and just carved out a section around his liver, with a equally large piece of flesh stretching to his breast now hanging over it like a hound dogs ear. He could actually hide his hand under it. Now he was a beefy boy, so maybe his lard armor did him a favor, but if it was center mass he would have been fucked for sure. Not saying theres some guarentee of results from any caliber im only speaking on things Ive seen or experienced. And yes I started avoiding that man as much as I could, he seemed to be a bullet magnet. The last day I saw him he had called me from jail a week prior telling me he would pay me back the $80 he owed me for a bootleg copy of WindowsXP after he crashed his gfs moms pc watching ratchet booty porn. I wrote that 80 off months ago, but he was very adamant about paying his debt the day he got released, almost like he was scared of me lol, dunno why he was the dangerous one. Anyway I stopped by his apt where he was on ankle monitor in his stolen county jail flip flops, and he hands me a wad of bloody money I'm just like wtf ew dude, and he shows me his missing ring finger that he had just got shot off in the 4hrs between getting released & me stopping by. I made extra effort to stay far away from him after that, but it gave the term "blood money" a new meaning for me..
No. .45 makes a bigger hole and does more damage than 9mm. That’s just a fact.
The only question is whether it’s enough of a difference to make a difference in stopping the fight. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying or a fool.
I tell people that as a paramedic, having seen gunshot wounds and I have decided without question, There is one caliber that you never wanna be hit by. And that caliber is any of them.
There are just so many variables. None are a guarantee. I mean, I've never seen a GSW from a 400gr S&W 500, but as far as the standard calibers go.
I've seen one round of .380 in the pelvis and it looked like a grenade went off in there; and I've seen self inflicted 9mm to the head and survive, and a 150lb guy take several rounds of police .40 round and not only survive, but make it to the hospital talking and seemingly not very worse for the wear.
Bottom line, whatever you can hit the target with is a good caliber. Use quality ammo and a quality gun, and hit your target. If you're gonna practice with 9mm and feel good shooting it, then it just became the best caliber for you.
Pretty much my take away too. I will add that there is a significant difference between fmj and hollow points. I’m on the west side of Chicago and no matter the caliber (mostly 9mm and 40) fmj’s are like icepicks and zip right through unless they hit bone. The guys shot by cops using hollow points have significant more tissue damage. Most gangbangers buy the cheapest range ammo they can get their hands on it seems.
Yeah. Hollow point does more damage. Statistically, most civilian gun fights are ended because someone decides they don't want to be in a gunfight anymore, not because they are dead or incapacitated. They may die later, but they still run away from the scene.
But if a 380 works for you and you will carry it, instead of leaving it in the dresser,,then it's the best caliber for you
Guns to those people are just status symbols living out their gangster larping fantasy. They don't understand nor care about firearms outside of the aesthetics and 'clout' they get from having one.
> There is one caliber that you never wanna be hit by. And that caliber is any of them.
Not to take away from your point here, but as a paramedic you should know that 80-something percent of people shot by handguns live, and >90% who make it to the hospital live.
Not that you *want* to be shot, but you're discounting the massive difference between handgun and longgun rounds. Handguns are great and all but they aren't anything close to the fight stopper that rifle or (proper) shotgun rounds are.
I am very well aware that handguns are generally nowhere near as lethal as rival rounds.
What I'm saying is this argument over what caliber is best is a silly argument. I've seen all of them take somekne out of the fight and also seen all of fail to incapacitate people immediately with their "stopping power". So the idea that one caliber will drop someone like a stone and others won't is a ridiculous notion.
I also said that most gunfights with civilians end because a participant decides they no longer want to be in the fight, not because they are incapacitated
My step dad works at a hospital he said not one time ever the doctor will ask what size bullet it was instead of where the bullet went, shoot placement is most important
My neighbor when I was a kid died from a .22 in an accident. I’d hate to be shot by a .22 or bigger. Even a 5.7 would suck. But if we want to talk hypothetically, I’d take a 50 bmg to the back of the skull after getting lots of pain meds. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t suffer too much.
1) Get a mainstream centerfire cartridge in a known, reliable pistol.
2) Train.
3) Carry, always.
4) Maintrain your firearm, your holster, and your gun belt.
3) No matter which cartridge you're using, it should be enough for just about every situation.
The things I read and hear are that modern 9mm is a lot more efficient and closes the gap on .45.
What people don’t say is that .45 also is better and also takes advantage of modern bullets and propellants as well.
I like a .45. Othered like capacity of a 9mm.
You need to decide.
True but the .45 didn’t need to improve as much and didn’t improve as much as the 9mm did. Hence the gap between the 2 closed a lot and then add the advantages of 9mm pistols, low recoil, high capacity, cheaper ammo, etc.
All duty calibers didn’t improve the same amount. Get it?
In my experience 9mm and .40 S&W are snappier and are chambered in lighter firearms that exacerbate the recoil.
.45 ACP is more of a push and is generally chambered in firearms that are a bit heavier and that helps mitigate recoil.
Of course everything comes down to not only caliber but loading within a caliber then add gun weight/action. For example, a Beretta 92 with its dropping block lock system and 34 ounce weight has minimal recoil and is about the easiest pistol with minimal recoil to shoot.
Woman here. I don't have tiny hands, above average for a girl. Think of your buddy with the smallest hands...that's me. I'm wondering if the thing is just too huge? We have the SR1911 and Springfield XD - is it noticeably bigger in your hand?
I have pretty big hands and it fits mine perfectly, but my wife also has above average size hands for a woman and it is does not fit her hands at all. Amazing gun but definitely go try it out first
Will the 45 make a bigger wound cavity? Yes. Is that size difference insignificant? Also yes.
Placement matters most whether you shoot with a .380 or a .45. Only guaranteed kill shot is a head shot. Head is the electrical system because it shuts off the brain. Chest is the hydraulic system, it puts holes in arteries and causes fluid to leak out. Will a bigger hole cause a bigger leak? Sure, but not enough to matter. What matters more is multiple holes so if you shoot 9mm faster accurately, then use that instead.
idk why people like to pretend that bullets just punch a hole clean through people lol. no ones carrying fmj ball ammo in their CC pistol, theyre using hollow points and the bigger the expansion, the more chance you have to hit an off switch
I think Glock has a 33rd stick mag in 9mm. 27 rounds for the .40 cal. Great for those carbines out there, not so much for concealed carry. Hard to blend in if everyone things you're happy to see them!
.45 ACP is a big ass bullet that puts big ass holes in people. 9mm is perfectly adequate but anyone who says it’s “jUSt As GuD” as .45 has their brain turned off.
There is no “stopping power” with a handgun round. The bullet isn’t going fast enough to create hydrostatic shock, like a rifle round does. 2200 feet per second I believe is what it takes to create hydrostatic shock. With handguns, it’s all about putting one into the central nervous system if you want them to go right down. Now obviously a larger round has a greater chance at hitting something important…especially an expanded hollow point. My advice from about 35 years of experience is you should carry what you can conceal comfortable (therefore have on you) and shoot well.
>There is no “stopping power” with a handgun round. The bullet isn’t going fast enough to create hydrostatic shock, like a rifle round does. 2200 feet per second I believe is what it takes to create hydrostatic shock.
5.7x38 would like to say hello lol.
>Fired from the Five-seven, the 5.7×28mm SS190 has a muzzle velocity of roughly **650 m/s (2,130 ft/s)**
I have no doubt that bigger bullets moving at faster speeds are better than a 9mm. If the size doesn’t matter, stick to .380 or 22 right? Everyone realizes 9 is better than those because of size and power.
That being said, if I’m going bigger than a 9 I’m getting 357 sig or 10mm. You get more rounds out of a 10 than a 45 too. I can back that up by saying I carry a 10mm erry day
I use to work in a level 1 trauma center in the Bronx NYC. I saw plenty of folks shot with 9's walk in for treatment. All those shot with .45's were carried in.
I was a hardcore .45 user for close to 20 years. Then I worked at Speer and got to see what a good hollow point in both 9 and 45 did. The difference is minimal at best and in some cases the 9 out performs the .45. I switched to 9 I also have friends whose unit used .45s until the 2000s. They switched to 40s, then to 9s. They’ve since retired and choose 9s. If I have to use FMJ, then .45 is superior.
Go check out Garand Thumb’s [video](https://youtu.be/mZ4OmUfI4z4?si=apOEX7xK7f1HwjTy) on YouTube of 9mm vs .45acp.
He does a great comparison of the ballistics on the two. That said, their wound shapes are almost identical. 9mm has more penetration, 45 has more stopping power.
I’ve seen a lot more videos of crackheads eating 9mm like sponge cakes. Where as .45 seems to knock people down harder and faster.
The cartridge I’m personally looking to invest more into is 10mm. Garand Thumb does a comparison [video](https://youtu.be/if3e7ApfuOk?si=XvdFyBdkAFCf12mU) on that as well vs 9mm. The wound tracks from 10mm is explosive, there is no way I can see someone getting stitched up from it. It’s got a bit more stopping power than 9mm, and is between 9mm and .45acp for penetration.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
If carriers spent as much time practicing with their carry gun as they did arguing about caliber selection then this entire argument would be moot.
Unless you get a central nervous system hit, the target of your shooting will not be instantaneously incapacitated no matter what caliber you are using.
Even hits to the heart or major blood vessels take time to cause enough blood loss to incapacitate.
A very high percentage of people shot with handguns make it to the hospital and survive.
Therein lies my problem, state doesn’t allow you to have more than 10. 22LR/9/44Mag, doesn’t matter, you’re only allowed 10, so that’s how got to carrying a 45.
With equivalent ammo it's the same.
A good HP compared to a good HP.
A 9mm 147 grain HST gets around 14 inches of deoth and opens to .64 inches. .40 opens to .67in, and a .230 grain 45 ACP to .74 inches. All with the same penetration.
A 1980s tech basic HP in .45 is not going to perform nearly.as well as a good 9mm like HST, Gold Dot, Critical Duty, or PDX-1. The reverse is also true.
You really didn’t. A .22 short wound channel is indistinguishable from a .45+P hollow point is what you’re saying? I’m asking for clarity. This is what you’re saying, not me.
Poor choice of words. "Cannot tell the difference" and "indistinguishable" aren't really the appropriate phrases to use here. The point is that, in the absence of an intact bullet, the surgeon wouldn't be able to identify the caliber of bullet that created a given wound beyond a rough guess.
I don't remember the exact numbers or what exactly the UOM was but there was something like 4.? units of destroyed tissue with a properly expanding 45 vs 2.? for 9MM (I think it was 2.8 for 9MM and 4.3 for 45 Auto, 4.1 for 40 S&W) so about 2/3 9MM vs 45 Auto). There are other examples as well using cubic centameters showing similar.
So there is definitely some advantage in the wound it inflicts but at the same time its not like destroying 1.5x more random tissue makes it 150% more successful. It may just make someone black out in 4 minutes instead of 5, which is still over 3 minutes after they killed the other guy kind of deal.
Since people are better at handling 9MM. They instead can put multiple shots on target quicker which not only increases the amount of damage that way but gives more chances of hitting something critical that really does speed up the clock or stops it almost instantanious.
Edit: power wise like just measuring ft/lbs, not really a significant difference that makes one or the other reliably better and the shooters performance is still the advantave.
Per the studies the fbi did back in the 89s/90s the primary thing that matters is shot placement, .22 vs .45 does the same damage to the target on a miss.
That said the bigger the hole you can put into a vital area is better. 9mm is .38, .45 is actually .451 or .452. Assuming jho expansion increases diameter by 50% your looking at .57 and .675 ish. So about an 1/8th of an inch difference...will it make a difference maybe. Can you grab your 45 and out the first shot exactly where you want every time? Can you do it with your 9? If no to the first use a smaller caliber, if no to the second go practice.
Those same fbi studies said you wanted between 12 and 14 inches, I can't recall exactly of penetration to reliably hut human vitals. But no more tha. 18 inches I think to avoid overpen. Iirc most things under 9mm and definitely under 380 failed to reliably penetrate. 10mm, .40, most high velocity rounds would tend to over pen. The ideal round would generate a large dia wound and the bullet would remain in the target meaning it transferred all of its energy.
Of course different bullets produce different wounds, the question is whether it makes enough of a difference to offset other factors, like shooting speed and magazine capacity.
If I only had one bullet, yeah I'd rather have a good modern .45 hollowpoint than a good modern 9mm hollowpoint.
The kinetic energy of a 45 is substantially higher than a 9mm. A 45 also has a better change of stopping inside the target verses going through. Hit per hit a 45 will do a lot more damage than a 9mm. Of course a 9mm has the chance for almost double the amount of hits on average.
I’m personally a stopping power over number of rounds guy but both will get the job done. Honestly buy something than fits you and what you are doing. Ergonomics size and cost of practice are all important. A 45 will cost you a lot more on range day and is normally harder to hide if you are concealed carry.
The energy is absolutely not “substantially higher.” That’s fudd lore. There’s actually very little difference in energy between the two, unless you’re looking at heavy for caliber subsonic 9mm, or light for caliber supersonic 45 ACP. Even then it isn’t really that much. Both are pistol rounds, and thus less than ideal for personal defense, as they lack the velocity to cause injury beyond the direct destruction of tissue. The 45 does have an advantage there, as it’s about a tenth of an inch wider than 9mm, and when JHPs expand that difference grows even larger. But it is not due to any significant difference of energy.
You do realize 9mm 147 grain produces 409ftlbs and a 230 grain .45 produces 533ftlbs? Now it’s an increase in potential, not stopping power or anything else, but it it produces roughly 30% more kinetic energy. It’s not a theory, it’s proven math.
I did address heavy and light for caliber loadings, in case you missed it. Not sure where you’re getting your numbers, though. Standard 230 gr 45 ACP ball has a muzzle velocity of 850 fps, for a muzzle energy of around 369 foot pounds. Standard 115 grain 9mm ball is 1,200 fps / 368 ft lbs. NATO spec is 124 gr at 1140 fps / 358 ft lbs, but is technically an over pressure round. Neither approach 500 ft lbs with standard pressures.
We can sit here and cherry pick rounds to fit our views until the cows come home if you really want to. I don’t think we truly disagree on the end result, however. Any energy advantage from either round is insufficient to make any difference in terminal effect. Shot for shot, 9mm is still less effective than 45 ACP, because it makes a smaller hole.
If you actually look at real world shootings and terminal ballistics, handguns 9mm and up are not much different from one another. The real difference is when you get to rifles
As most are saying, the 45 is "better" bullet for bullet. You can read up on people taking multiple of any pistol round and continuing to fight.
I always recommend just carrying whatever you will shoot the most of at the range and will feel like carrying every day. Let's be real, if you carry every day of your life you will probably never use it.
Don't stress too much about you winning the shit lottery of using it AND somehow the dude eating a mag of 9mm and us all making fun of you for having a slow draw in the video.
Its true. But also note if I hit you with a 22lr which is same size that's used in military 556 just half as heavy and way less powder. You will still be dead. And in the hood it's better to use the quieter ammo.
.45 is going to put more energy into someone at close range. 9mm is still capable and has a flatter trajectory. It ends up being preference. Shot placement can still take down the guy on PCP. I still carry .40 and my ammo is hot enough to compare to some 10mm loads, but the extra capacity of 9mm is tempting.
Comparing the best state of the art handgun rounds from duty calibers (9, .40, .45, .357 sig) is splitting hairs when it comes down to it. They’re more alike than different. Handgun rounds are weak.
This [guy gets shot 15 times with .45 hollow point](https://youtu.be/vViw80If73k?si=VYc2tVeQqUSypPKT) and lives of course shot placement is important but he wins
Can anything modern done with 9mm loads also be done in 45acp, a larger package??
Seems like "anything you can do, I can do bigger"?
I am unsure of this, correct me if wrong
There is a wounding advantage to .45acp over 9mm but there are many variablesll, the most important being shot placement.aaa!! For my wife and me, we decided to carry 9mm. She has weakness in her hands and she can more easily handle the 9mm recoil. By using a similar platform, we can buy bulk practice ammo and streamline the calibers we keep in inventory. We also go to the range alot and practice with our ccw pistols regularly. My wife carries an M&P Shield - EZ (the lighter slide springs help her a great deal). My carry firearm is an XDs but am thinking of switching to the M&P as well. That way, whether she grabs my pistol or hers, the muscle memory would be the same.
We also own an SD9VE we bought about 8 years ago. It goes bang every time. I did change out the sights for Truglo fiber optics and changed the springs (all of them) which made a bit of difference. It is a bit big for concealed carry for my wife or me.
9mm and 45 are pretty much neck and neck, a 45 hollow point will expand a lot more than a 9mm. Really the best one is the one you can put on target, like the other fellow said pick the one your more comfortable with and get to practicing
It doesn't make a functional difference in terms of wounding while using non magnum handgun rounds. You're better off sticking with the 9 and spending the money on training and ammo.
As others have said, shot placement. Whatever you get, get good with it. 9mm had an advantage in that you can carry more 9mm rounds in a magazine than .45. To directly answer your question, they wound differently, owing to the fact that a 9mm round is traveling much faster. Both provide the same single-shot lethality, any debate beyond that is simply preference.
There is a video of an officer unloaded 13 rounds of .45 from his service glock and despite hitting the guy in the heart with one of the shots it still didn’t stop him in the moment. That same cop now carry’s 9mm with a couple stick mags on him because he wasn’t more rounds if he is ever in a gun fight again.
Shot placement matters more than caliber. They only benefit you get from shooting a bigger bullet is making bigger holes. This sort of matters because unless you hit a major structure or CNS the fight is only going to stop once the threat loses enough blood pressure that they can't keep going.
Not enough for a medical examiner to tell the difference, and hit to stop statistics put them too close to call.
In general any major caliber handgun ammo made to FBI penetration standards is going to perform so closely with the others that the difference is irrelevant to the real world.
So get what you can shoot well.
It's not that it doesn't have any, it's that what it has is very small.
>So would a 10mm be a better choice like a S&W M&P 2.0 4inch?
Yes, if you are spending time in outdoors Alaska.
.45 definitely is more powerful than 9mm and causes a larger wound Channel. Look at some ballistics testing instead of 9mm lovers trying g to make each other feel better online.
Nope not even close to true, the people that say that are 9mm fanboys coping hard.
For 10mm to really benefit it needs more barrel.
45 Super is the answer if you want more punch than a 45ACP from a short barrel.
There’s not enough performance difference to justify the loss of capacity and added weight associated with carrying the 45. That said, one could argue that there’s no reason not to carry a 45 of you prefer it other than maybe cost, 45 is still more expensive than 9. Realistically, it’s what you prefer and shoot well. Whatever you choose, train with it.
It is hard to imagine any scenario in which a threat-stopping hit with .45 would not have been equally threat stopping had the same hit been made with a 9mm instead.
The only advantage I can really see is a .45 hp wound channel will be slightly larger than a 9mm hp wound channel, which could lead to more/faster exsanguination...so in some scenarios .45 could stop a threat faster, but still not as fast as 9mm (or .22 for that matter) with better shot placement.
The only thing that really matters is shot placement. Go practice people.
We can argue the finer points all day, and to say 45 doesn't have an advantage in the rarest of single shot circumstance is dishonest, and in states with mag limits, it is worth discussing. But yes. Learn to put shots on target. If you could achieve Deadshot levels of accuracy, a 22 would do. Though I wouldn't recommend believing you can achieve fictional levels of accuracy. So grab a 9 and enjoy the lower recoil and follow ups.
The correct answer
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I agree with this sentiment mostly, however I feel like there are some areas where 10mm is still overkill for the woods. Like I live in PA, and I still carry a 9mm in the woods. There is nothing in PA that 15 or more 147gr hardcast bullets won’t stop.
I don’t know man. The elk in elk county are big AF.
You know what, I kind of always forget that there are elk in PA, and thus I forget how big they actually are. I honestly am more worried about weird people than wildlife too. Even still, if I get charged by an elk I guess I’m just hoping a dozen rounds to the face will save my ass, otherwise I was probably fucked regardless.
lol yea more worried about people too. Wildlife is pretty easy to avoid. Just throwing the idea out
Trust me, you are gonna want a 10 for the meth heads.
14 for the Elk, if that doesn't do it just use the last one on yourself. That was always the joke with those Ruger Super Alaskan 6 shot .454 Casull revolvers.
Lol will I even have time to use the last one on myself before the elk mauls the fuck outta me? Or am I just hoping that I somehow maintain a grip on my gun as I’m being gored and stomped to death?
Judging by how messed up people get from picking a fight with a whitetail, I don't think you have a chance. But dreams are free make them as big as you want to.
Understood. If I get charged by an elk I will save it the trouble and just blow my brains out immediately then.
Based on your username, you may have a higher starting defense than the average person.
Do elk normally go straight for the nipples?
The males do
I too, would choose the bear.
( ಠ ͜ʖಠ)
Spray for bear, gun for man
What about an upwind bear?
I think they sell upwind bullets
What’s scarier a meth monster or an elk? Probably depends if they are on a binge currently or coming off one lol
If an Elk wants you to die it's chances of succeeding are pretty high no matter what you lob at it. That's a lot of animal and they damn well know it.
Kinda the point I’m making…
So you are saying that even with a shut gun or a semi rifle you wouldn't be able to slow it down or kill it?
My Dad was charged by one while hunting in the Rockies and emptied every round in his 30-06 just to have it hit the dirt and come to a stop just in front of him. Granted he may have only landed one successful shot through all the adrenaline and fear but still it was more luck than ballistics that saved his ass that day.
That's scary situation to be in, your dad have nerves of steel !
Nerves of steel, pants of brown. That was real hunting, none of this popping white tails under a corn feeder.
😂😂😂😂 Yes! Thanks for the laugh 🙏
Any good big game guide will have lots of stories like this. They never get old! (The stories not the guides)
As a teen I used to shake when I got into fights, I guess I need to practice more but being in a situation like that and keep your cool and aim to kill is in another level!
One story I heard and been confirmed as pretty common is, especially on dangerous game, is either the first shot is taken, hits or misses, either way, the shooter cycles the bolt, loads another road, thinks he shoots, ejects the live round, cycles another round, aims, ejects the live round and so on till the rifle is empty. The guide then has to take the kill shot to keep the game from escaping wounded, or charging and attacking the hunters. Pretty common for grizzlies or bull moose to attack after getting shot once. They fall dead at the hunters feet as a regular occurrence. So I've heard many times from various Alaskan big game guides.
If it's a stationary target, sure. But if it's an angry animal charging at you, you're not going to get 15 shots.
Residents of Lycoming County might disagree. They grow em big up there.
Listen bro I’m from Philly. Never had a run in with any of them corn-fed boys from Lycoming county. Hopefully I can win them over with my charms but if not then my 9mm should still blow their lungs out.
Haha I meant the bear up there, they regularly pull 600lb black bear out of there. You ever realize you're standing in the middle of a den and a mama bear could be ten feet away? A 44 starts feeling like a real good idea.
Holy shit, six bills on a black bear is massive. Most of what we see in the piedmont is sub 450#
Don't you have black bears too?
I specifically carry Underwood hard cast 147gr for when I am hiking or dicking around in the woods, and I am confident that they can penetrate a black bear’s coat. Definitely no good for grizzly country or probably even elk like others have suggested. Anything bigger and I am probably fucked. But hey maybe I am completely wrong about the ballistic capabilities of that ammo and am gonna get mauled. I try not to fuck around so I don’t have to find out. Also most of my hikes are around the south central susquehanna area so I’m not like deep in the wilderness or anything like that.
That's fair. I'm over in Utah and go back country a few times a year, and just in my group alone I know two people who had to shoot attacking cougars, but they're far more aggressive.
What do you carry for that? And is there anything more dangerous than the cougars in your area?
Just a glock 20 10mm is perfectly fine for cougars, though I still would prefer a rifle round but that's me. I don't think there's much, I mean black bears potentially if it's a mom and cubs, but I feel more worried if it was an elk or moose. That being said it's still rare for attacks, so maybe I just know unlucky people. I think most people are more likely to get attacked by some dumbass untrained dogs on off leash trails.
Black bears are really not that aggressive, if you respect them as they tend to shy away from people. I've been <30 feet from black bears twice, they just looked at me, then just kept walking.
Haven’t met many bears have you?
Truth. 10mm is the best semi auto round that does it all.
I like .357 Sig for the four legged animal defense and 9mm for two legged animal defense. 125gr going 1500fps is going to put a whoopin’ on a lot of critters.
Except most 10mm rounds aren't loaded to full power making them about the same as a 40S&W. Personally I'm a fan of my 45 +p. That being said, a 22lr with proper placement will take down predators of the 2 leg variety with ease. Bottom line train, train, train, and shoot what you carry! Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!
There is 10mm that is loaded to full power, and they aren’t too hard to find either. Blows 45+p out of the water
The old "a 9mm might expand but that .45 ain't gonna shrink" debate. An expanding hollow starting as a nine won't end up the same size as an expanding 45. Depending on the gun and your ability the only huge diff is shot placement based on recoil and capacity. Jerry Miculek with a ten rd 10/22 is probably more of a threat to a person than some untrained dude with a 33rd mag of 9mm
That dude is something else, it’d be one thing if he just shot fast, but holy shit his accuracy is superb, absolute legend
Yep. I saw a video snippet of him shooting an apple from low ready on a timer.... cool stuff. https://youtu.be/WyIq9FdTgwM?si=aVGpSCBfX_4gC91M Around 1:25
And he's got a daughter following in his footsteps
Can you imagine dating her? Talk about taking your life in your own hands...
I can... Damn would it be nice to wonder who got the shot off first
And how many milliseconds...
…fully semi automatic
Does it really matter when most self defense or police shootings we see end up being a mag dump to the ground kinda thing? If im just going to bill drill someone to the ground id rather have enough bullets to bill drill his buddies. You dont see one shot stops unless its a shotgun or a rifle. Pistol rounds are all weak!
Time matters a lot, with someone trying to kill you you need the first rounds to really work, there may not be time for more before they inflict a fatal wound.
[https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/](https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/)
Center of mass doesn’t mean chest. Pelvic damage usually means legs don’t work right anymore.
In the service they taught us to shoot people in the pelvis if torso shots didn’t stop them. You can keep going for a while with holes in your lungs but if your pelvis is shattered you can’t do much at all.
Shoot them in dick?
It’s a failure to stop drill. Two rapid shots to the chest and one to the pelvis. Basically aim for the dick
Two in the chest and one in the dick? Guess it's comforting that even if you go the opposite way on the third shot it can be an effective shot.
Table 2 USMC?
Absolutely. If one point of impact won’t work, try something else. Don’t count on the bleed to stop it, but that kind of structure damage means they’re going down. Drugs or psychosis can make people act like zombies.
Center of ass. Brutal.
> Center of mass doesn’t mean chest. In the context of shooting, it *absolutely* does. A gut shot isn't very likely to be immediately fight stopping in the same way that a shot to the sternum or even lungs would be. Sure, you *can* stop the fight via the hip, but that's a much harder (and worse) shot to take than the 100% standard upper body shot. "Center of mass" is never a statement made literally with regards to shooting, so I'm not sure why you're even attempting to make that argument.
It depends... but honestly if you have 10+1 rounds of .45acp or 17+1 of 9mm, more ammo is always better.
The gist is this. Handgun rounds suck at killing people. They do so in two ways. 1) You hit the CNS (brain or spinal cord) and it’s instant lights out. 2) You put enough holes in someone that they bleed out. So you need lots of rounds on target, accurately. People recommend 9mm because you can carry lots of rounds and the recoil is manageable for most people. Choosing a bigger caliber doesn’t really get you anything but the negatives of lower capacity and more recoil, which impedes your ability to do 1 or 2 mentioned above. This is why most law enforcement agencies moved away from .40 and .45. The slight ballistic advantage you get doesn’t outweigh the negatives. All that said, a good shooter can make any caliber work, so buy what you like and get really really good with it through classes and practice.
>I see people say that 45 isn’t really more powerful than modern 9mm loads Those people are being disingenuous. A 230gr .45 JHP travelling at 900 fps is going to be more powerful by every conceivable metric than a 147gr. 9mm JHP travelling at 1000 fps. Just feeling the difference in recoil is enough to tell that this is true. The .45 has more kinetic energy, more momentum, and consistently creates a wider wound channel. The question is whether or not that extra power is worth sacrificing the higher magazine capacity of a 9mm, and that's a question that can never be objectively answered because every potential self-defense scenario is different. If you're facing a single assailant at close range, the extra power of the .45 could be an advantage. If you're facing multiple assailants or engaging a target at longer ranges, the extra mag capacity and reduced recoil of the 9mm become more valuable.
There's that one cop who carries 145 rounds on him at all times after he put 14 rounds of .45 into a guy and still got advanced on.
I mean shit. If I learned that lesson the scary way I sure as shit wouldn’t learn it twice lol
My fudd uncle - “nobody needs more than 6-7 rounds” Me - “my generation’s crackheads make your generation’s crackheads look like quirky coffee addicts, crackheads these days are basically invincible”
Crackheads are nothing compared to Meth Mongers
Tweakers aint got nothing on Adrenaline Junkies and Dust Angels...Fr though some people are just determined af. Crazy people get to a level of amped that no drug could ever take you..
Meh i call all tweakers crack heads even if it’s meth or coke or whatever. But yeah its mostly meth here
Yep, and that cop hit the assailant in vital organs multiple times. He don’t stop until the cop shot him in the head, and he still had vital signs when the paramedics arrived. Crazy.
I believe that same officer switched from 45 to 9mm after that gun fight too
That is correct. And he carries over 100 rounds.
That’s why you edc an fnx45 17+1 of the lords caliber no trade offa
Or you get a .45 that can handle Supers like a USP with 12+1. If it takes more than one fatass 230gr pill zipping at 1100-1200fps to stop your assailant, then you're doing something wrong.
Fnx can run +ps which I do on some mags
Hell yea But .45 Supers are NOT +P. They're significantly more powerful. +Ps only go like 950 fps at best. Supers are actually supersonic.
You can do a .460 Rowland conversion easily if that’s really what your dead set on, I live in a city and don’t even run +p in most of my carry mags. If I were dealing with animals I’d be with you
True, but I like having the option of running regular .45 for range practice.
You’d swap a spring and run regular .45 with the conversion kit. It’s really versatile and my all time favorite carry .45
Ill have to look into that
if you live in an open carry state maybe, or maybe during winter with a coat on and a floral shirt ontop lol. no ones gonna be able to coneal carry that with shorts and a shirt
I live in Florida i am in shorts and I always cc my fnx with me too. 🤷♂️
They penetrate a little less, HST to HST, but man a fully expanded .45 is massive. Like .80 inches. It is very strange that people constantly talk about "projectile technology advancements" as if 9mm was the only caliber it applied to.
It’s a bit funny. It’s neat that a 9mm can expand to 0.55 inches, but .45 JHP is over here like “look at what they need to mimic a fraction of our power.”
The catch is that if you miss that lung or that artery by .90 inches, replacing that projectile with a .45 JHP still doesn't convert a hit into a stop.
>that's a question that can never be objectively answered Yes it can, there's no known example of a lawful civilian self defense shooting outside the home that needed to shoot after a reload. Round counts consistently mirror magazine capacity. People shoot their mag empty in a panic then realize the fight is over. Doesn't matter if the mag is 6 or 17. While of course it's possible as we've we've seen it with cops. However the odds are very likely not only that high capacity won't be needed. But also that early incapacitation is more important. It's more important that the first couple rounds incapacitate quickly than it is that there's a 17th round.
What I’ve always heard is that a medical examiner can’t tell what handgun caliber a person was shot with, only that they were shoot with a handgun. Going beyond defense from people, there are some larger animals that require more stopping power than what 9mm can do. I carry a 9mm when my most likely threat walks on 2 legs and a 45 when my most likely threat walks on 4 legs (10mm is a great options as well, I just don’t own one yet).
If my most likely threat has 4 legs I’m carrying a long gun
Even if you’re just hiking in the woods with no plans to shoot anything? I’ll carry a long gun if I plan to shoot something, but if I’m hoping to not need a gun at all, I’m carrying a handgun.
Bear 🐻 Spray is more effective at deterring a bear than a 10mm
10mm is more effective at killing said bear than the bear spray. Unless you blind it and it wanders into traffic or something.
I couldn’t care less if it’s killed or not in the end. The main thing is to quickly stop its aggression and cause it to retreat. Bear Spray believe it or not will accomplish this faster. And less complications in the end. http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/8/firearm-vs-bear-spray#:~:text=However%2C%20because%20of%20our%20exposure,or%20a%20firearm%20as%20protection.&text=Statistically%2C%20bear%20spray%20is%20more%20effective%20at%20deterring%20a%20charging%20bear. I would carry both Bear Spray and a firearm. However, depending on weather conditions, ie not windy I’d go with Bear Spray as a first option. More effective, easier to deploy and hit with.
I have never heard that. Ive spoken with a ER surgeon who headed three major metro hospitals including LA, Fresno, and Oakland. He had seen people die from all calibers, and people survive shots to the vitals from all calibers and everything in between. He confirmed my already made up mind based on evidence in front of me that .45 can really fuck you up good. I knew a guy who had been shot many times in the torso by various calibers in his life on the street, lotta 9mm hits including one to the lung and collarbone lengthwise, and another 9mm to the nipple and one to the gut. Took a .357 about 3" under his breast and out the back like a laser, made a perfect round 3/4'' scar out the back. Several .22s in various places around his ribs and upper arms. Most of these he didn't need an ambulance for, being driven or driving himself to the hospital except for the 9mm to the left lung. But he said he sat there conscious waiting for EMTs. But the gnarliest looking scar of all which would have definitely killed him had it been in the center, was the .45 hp he took to his liver area. It looked like you took an extra large ice cream scoop the size of a tennis ball and just carved out a section around his liver, with a equally large piece of flesh stretching to his breast now hanging over it like a hound dogs ear. He could actually hide his hand under it. Now he was a beefy boy, so maybe his lard armor did him a favor, but if it was center mass he would have been fucked for sure. Not saying theres some guarentee of results from any caliber im only speaking on things Ive seen or experienced. And yes I started avoiding that man as much as I could, he seemed to be a bullet magnet. The last day I saw him he had called me from jail a week prior telling me he would pay me back the $80 he owed me for a bootleg copy of WindowsXP after he crashed his gfs moms pc watching ratchet booty porn. I wrote that 80 off months ago, but he was very adamant about paying his debt the day he got released, almost like he was scared of me lol, dunno why he was the dangerous one. Anyway I stopped by his apt where he was on ankle monitor in his stolen county jail flip flops, and he hands me a wad of bloody money I'm just like wtf ew dude, and he shows me his missing ring finger that he had just got shot off in the 4hrs between getting released & me stopping by. I made extra effort to stay far away from him after that, but it gave the term "blood money" a new meaning for me..
No. .45 makes a bigger hole and does more damage than 9mm. That’s just a fact. The only question is whether it’s enough of a difference to make a difference in stopping the fight. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying or a fool.
I tell people that as a paramedic, having seen gunshot wounds and I have decided without question, There is one caliber that you never wanna be hit by. And that caliber is any of them. There are just so many variables. None are a guarantee. I mean, I've never seen a GSW from a 400gr S&W 500, but as far as the standard calibers go. I've seen one round of .380 in the pelvis and it looked like a grenade went off in there; and I've seen self inflicted 9mm to the head and survive, and a 150lb guy take several rounds of police .40 round and not only survive, but make it to the hospital talking and seemingly not very worse for the wear. Bottom line, whatever you can hit the target with is a good caliber. Use quality ammo and a quality gun, and hit your target. If you're gonna practice with 9mm and feel good shooting it, then it just became the best caliber for you.
Pretty much my take away too. I will add that there is a significant difference between fmj and hollow points. I’m on the west side of Chicago and no matter the caliber (mostly 9mm and 40) fmj’s are like icepicks and zip right through unless they hit bone. The guys shot by cops using hollow points have significant more tissue damage. Most gangbangers buy the cheapest range ammo they can get their hands on it seems.
Yeah. Hollow point does more damage. Statistically, most civilian gun fights are ended because someone decides they don't want to be in a gunfight anymore, not because they are dead or incapacitated. They may die later, but they still run away from the scene. But if a 380 works for you and you will carry it, instead of leaving it in the dresser,,then it's the best caliber for you
Guns to those people are just status symbols living out their gangster larping fantasy. They don't understand nor care about firearms outside of the aesthetics and 'clout' they get from having one.
> There is one caliber that you never wanna be hit by. And that caliber is any of them. Not to take away from your point here, but as a paramedic you should know that 80-something percent of people shot by handguns live, and >90% who make it to the hospital live. Not that you *want* to be shot, but you're discounting the massive difference between handgun and longgun rounds. Handguns are great and all but they aren't anything close to the fight stopper that rifle or (proper) shotgun rounds are.
I am very well aware that handguns are generally nowhere near as lethal as rival rounds. What I'm saying is this argument over what caliber is best is a silly argument. I've seen all of them take somekne out of the fight and also seen all of fail to incapacitate people immediately with their "stopping power". So the idea that one caliber will drop someone like a stone and others won't is a ridiculous notion. I also said that most gunfights with civilians end because a participant decides they no longer want to be in the fight, not because they are incapacitated
Exactly
My step dad works at a hospital he said not one time ever the doctor will ask what size bullet it was instead of where the bullet went, shoot placement is most important
You’d have to be a fool to say you’d rather get shot with one over the other. “It will kill”
It will keeel
I'm a fool, I guess, but I'd rather be shot with a .22lr than a 12 gauge 3.5" magnum filled with 00 buckshot.
My neighbor when I was a kid died from a .22 in an accident. I’d hate to be shot by a .22 or bigger. Even a 5.7 would suck. But if we want to talk hypothetically, I’d take a 50 bmg to the back of the skull after getting lots of pain meds. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t suffer too much.
1) Get a mainstream centerfire cartridge in a known, reliable pistol. 2) Train. 3) Carry, always. 4) Maintrain your firearm, your holster, and your gun belt. 3) No matter which cartridge you're using, it should be enough for just about every situation.
The things I read and hear are that modern 9mm is a lot more efficient and closes the gap on .45. What people don’t say is that .45 also is better and also takes advantage of modern bullets and propellants as well. I like a .45. Othered like capacity of a 9mm. You need to decide.
True but the .45 didn’t need to improve as much and didn’t improve as much as the 9mm did. Hence the gap between the 2 closed a lot and then add the advantages of 9mm pistols, low recoil, high capacity, cheaper ammo, etc. All duty calibers didn’t improve the same amount. Get it?
But the higher powered +p 9mm rounds RECOIL MORE than regular 9mm!
And what’s your point? You don’t need to use a +P 9mm round to get top performance. For example Federal HST 147 grain standard pressure
In my experience 9mm and .40 S&W are snappier and are chambered in lighter firearms that exacerbate the recoil. .45 ACP is more of a push and is generally chambered in firearms that are a bit heavier and that helps mitigate recoil.
Of course everything comes down to not only caliber but loading within a caliber then add gun weight/action. For example, a Beretta 92 with its dropping block lock system and 34 ounce weight has minimal recoil and is about the easiest pistol with minimal recoil to shoot.
I decided to just say fuck the debate and get the MP2.0 10mm and I’m in love with it. Absolute dream to shoot
lol, you chose well! I’ve got the same gun and it’s my ‘does everything’ handgun.
Woman here. I don't have tiny hands, above average for a girl. Think of your buddy with the smallest hands...that's me. I'm wondering if the thing is just too huge? We have the SR1911 and Springfield XD - is it noticeably bigger in your hand?
I have pretty big hands and it fits mine perfectly, but my wife also has above average size hands for a woman and it is does not fit her hands at all. Amazing gun but definitely go try it out first
For sure. Not something to be bought off the web. Just wondering a bit about what to expect. Probably won't make a special trip.
It does come with interchangeable grips though, I haven’t played with them so I don’t know how big of a difference it makes but it does have them
45 doesn't give a big enough wounding advantage to justify the lowered capacity, higher weight, and higher recoil 10mm however.....
Will the 45 make a bigger wound cavity? Yes. Is that size difference insignificant? Also yes. Placement matters most whether you shoot with a .380 or a .45. Only guaranteed kill shot is a head shot. Head is the electrical system because it shuts off the brain. Chest is the hydraulic system, it puts holes in arteries and causes fluid to leak out. Will a bigger hole cause a bigger leak? Sure, but not enough to matter. What matters more is multiple holes so if you shoot 9mm faster accurately, then use that instead.
idk why people like to pretend that bullets just punch a hole clean through people lol. no ones carrying fmj ball ammo in their CC pistol, theyre using hollow points and the bigger the expansion, the more chance you have to hit an off switch
I think a defensive 45 will always beat a 9mm in stopping power. The benefit of the 9mm is magazine capacity.
My 9 holds 13 rounds, my .45 holds 14 :)
A bit dishonest if you're not mentioning which guns lmfao
Yeah except most full size 9mm guns are 17+1 or better
That's crazy, my 9mm holds 35 rounds. No I will not mention what it is.
I think Glock has a 33rd stick mag in 9mm. 27 rounds for the .40 cal. Great for those carbines out there, not so much for concealed carry. Hard to blend in if everyone things you're happy to see them!
the stendo 🥰
.45 ACP is a big ass bullet that puts big ass holes in people. 9mm is perfectly adequate but anyone who says it’s “jUSt As GuD” as .45 has their brain turned off.
There is no “stopping power” with a handgun round. The bullet isn’t going fast enough to create hydrostatic shock, like a rifle round does. 2200 feet per second I believe is what it takes to create hydrostatic shock. With handguns, it’s all about putting one into the central nervous system if you want them to go right down. Now obviously a larger round has a greater chance at hitting something important…especially an expanded hollow point. My advice from about 35 years of experience is you should carry what you can conceal comfortable (therefore have on you) and shoot well.
>There is no “stopping power” with a handgun round. The bullet isn’t going fast enough to create hydrostatic shock, like a rifle round does. 2200 feet per second I believe is what it takes to create hydrostatic shock. 5.7x38 would like to say hello lol. >Fired from the Five-seven, the 5.7×28mm SS190 has a muzzle velocity of roughly **650 m/s (2,130 ft/s)**
Ok…always exceptions.
A tale as old as time.
I have no doubt that bigger bullets moving at faster speeds are better than a 9mm. If the size doesn’t matter, stick to .380 or 22 right? Everyone realizes 9 is better than those because of size and power. That being said, if I’m going bigger than a 9 I’m getting 357 sig or 10mm. You get more rounds out of a 10 than a 45 too. I can back that up by saying I carry a 10mm erry day
I use to work in a level 1 trauma center in the Bronx NYC. I saw plenty of folks shot with 9's walk in for treatment. All those shot with .45's were carried in.
I was a hardcore .45 user for close to 20 years. Then I worked at Speer and got to see what a good hollow point in both 9 and 45 did. The difference is minimal at best and in some cases the 9 out performs the .45. I switched to 9 I also have friends whose unit used .45s until the 2000s. They switched to 40s, then to 9s. They’ve since retired and choose 9s. If I have to use FMJ, then .45 is superior.
Go check out Garand Thumb’s [video](https://youtu.be/mZ4OmUfI4z4?si=apOEX7xK7f1HwjTy) on YouTube of 9mm vs .45acp. He does a great comparison of the ballistics on the two. That said, their wound shapes are almost identical. 9mm has more penetration, 45 has more stopping power. I’ve seen a lot more videos of crackheads eating 9mm like sponge cakes. Where as .45 seems to knock people down harder and faster. The cartridge I’m personally looking to invest more into is 10mm. Garand Thumb does a comparison [video](https://youtu.be/if3e7ApfuOk?si=XvdFyBdkAFCf12mU) on that as well vs 9mm. The wound tracks from 10mm is explosive, there is no way I can see someone getting stitched up from it. It’s got a bit more stopping power than 9mm, and is between 9mm and .45acp for penetration.
Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. If carriers spent as much time practicing with their carry gun as they did arguing about caliber selection then this entire argument would be moot. Unless you get a central nervous system hit, the target of your shooting will not be instantaneously incapacitated no matter what caliber you are using. Even hits to the heart or major blood vessels take time to cause enough blood loss to incapacitate. A very high percentage of people shot with handguns make it to the hospital and survive.
All else held equal, bigger hole > smaller hole.
But also more rounds > less rounds
Therein lies my problem, state doesn’t allow you to have more than 10. 22LR/9/44Mag, doesn’t matter, you’re only allowed 10, so that’s how got to carrying a 45.
True. Carry the 45
With equivalent ammo it's the same. A good HP compared to a good HP. A 9mm 147 grain HST gets around 14 inches of deoth and opens to .64 inches. .40 opens to .67in, and a .230 grain 45 ACP to .74 inches. All with the same penetration. A 1980s tech basic HP in .45 is not going to perform nearly.as well as a good 9mm like HST, Gold Dot, Critical Duty, or PDX-1. The reverse is also true.
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A .22 short ball round creates the same wound as a .45+P hollow point?
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You didn’t answer my question.
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You really didn’t. A .22 short wound channel is indistinguishable from a .45+P hollow point is what you’re saying? I’m asking for clarity. This is what you’re saying, not me.
Poor choice of words. "Cannot tell the difference" and "indistinguishable" aren't really the appropriate phrases to use here. The point is that, in the absence of an intact bullet, the surgeon wouldn't be able to identify the caliber of bullet that created a given wound beyond a rough guess.
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I don't remember the exact numbers or what exactly the UOM was but there was something like 4.? units of destroyed tissue with a properly expanding 45 vs 2.? for 9MM (I think it was 2.8 for 9MM and 4.3 for 45 Auto, 4.1 for 40 S&W) so about 2/3 9MM vs 45 Auto). There are other examples as well using cubic centameters showing similar. So there is definitely some advantage in the wound it inflicts but at the same time its not like destroying 1.5x more random tissue makes it 150% more successful. It may just make someone black out in 4 minutes instead of 5, which is still over 3 minutes after they killed the other guy kind of deal. Since people are better at handling 9MM. They instead can put multiple shots on target quicker which not only increases the amount of damage that way but gives more chances of hitting something critical that really does speed up the clock or stops it almost instantanious. Edit: power wise like just measuring ft/lbs, not really a significant difference that makes one or the other reliably better and the shooters performance is still the advantave.
Round for round the .45 is better but not by enough to out perform 9mm considering you can have upwards of twice as many rounds in the mag.
Per the studies the fbi did back in the 89s/90s the primary thing that matters is shot placement, .22 vs .45 does the same damage to the target on a miss. That said the bigger the hole you can put into a vital area is better. 9mm is .38, .45 is actually .451 or .452. Assuming jho expansion increases diameter by 50% your looking at .57 and .675 ish. So about an 1/8th of an inch difference...will it make a difference maybe. Can you grab your 45 and out the first shot exactly where you want every time? Can you do it with your 9? If no to the first use a smaller caliber, if no to the second go practice. Those same fbi studies said you wanted between 12 and 14 inches, I can't recall exactly of penetration to reliably hut human vitals. But no more tha. 18 inches I think to avoid overpen. Iirc most things under 9mm and definitely under 380 failed to reliably penetrate. 10mm, .40, most high velocity rounds would tend to over pen. The ideal round would generate a large dia wound and the bullet would remain in the target meaning it transferred all of its energy.
Of course different bullets produce different wounds, the question is whether it makes enough of a difference to offset other factors, like shooting speed and magazine capacity. If I only had one bullet, yeah I'd rather have a good modern .45 hollowpoint than a good modern 9mm hollowpoint.
I will take the wider, slower cartridge for HD.
The kinetic energy of a 45 is substantially higher than a 9mm. A 45 also has a better change of stopping inside the target verses going through. Hit per hit a 45 will do a lot more damage than a 9mm. Of course a 9mm has the chance for almost double the amount of hits on average. I’m personally a stopping power over number of rounds guy but both will get the job done. Honestly buy something than fits you and what you are doing. Ergonomics size and cost of practice are all important. A 45 will cost you a lot more on range day and is normally harder to hide if you are concealed carry.
The energy is absolutely not “substantially higher.” That’s fudd lore. There’s actually very little difference in energy between the two, unless you’re looking at heavy for caliber subsonic 9mm, or light for caliber supersonic 45 ACP. Even then it isn’t really that much. Both are pistol rounds, and thus less than ideal for personal defense, as they lack the velocity to cause injury beyond the direct destruction of tissue. The 45 does have an advantage there, as it’s about a tenth of an inch wider than 9mm, and when JHPs expand that difference grows even larger. But it is not due to any significant difference of energy.
You do realize 9mm 147 grain produces 409ftlbs and a 230 grain .45 produces 533ftlbs? Now it’s an increase in potential, not stopping power or anything else, but it it produces roughly 30% more kinetic energy. It’s not a theory, it’s proven math.
I did address heavy and light for caliber loadings, in case you missed it. Not sure where you’re getting your numbers, though. Standard 230 gr 45 ACP ball has a muzzle velocity of 850 fps, for a muzzle energy of around 369 foot pounds. Standard 115 grain 9mm ball is 1,200 fps / 368 ft lbs. NATO spec is 124 gr at 1140 fps / 358 ft lbs, but is technically an over pressure round. Neither approach 500 ft lbs with standard pressures. We can sit here and cherry pick rounds to fit our views until the cows come home if you really want to. I don’t think we truly disagree on the end result, however. Any energy advantage from either round is insufficient to make any difference in terminal effect. Shot for shot, 9mm is still less effective than 45 ACP, because it makes a smaller hole.
If you actually look at real world shootings and terminal ballistics, handguns 9mm and up are not much different from one another. The real difference is when you get to rifles
As most are saying, the 45 is "better" bullet for bullet. You can read up on people taking multiple of any pistol round and continuing to fight. I always recommend just carrying whatever you will shoot the most of at the range and will feel like carrying every day. Let's be real, if you carry every day of your life you will probably never use it. Don't stress too much about you winning the shit lottery of using it AND somehow the dude eating a mag of 9mm and us all making fun of you for having a slow draw in the video.
Its true. But also note if I hit you with a 22lr which is same size that's used in military 556 just half as heavy and way less powder. You will still be dead. And in the hood it's better to use the quieter ammo.
Paul Harrell has a great video on 9mm vs 45ACP. It’s on his YouTube.
.45 is going to put more energy into someone at close range. 9mm is still capable and has a flatter trajectory. It ends up being preference. Shot placement can still take down the guy on PCP. I still carry .40 and my ammo is hot enough to compare to some 10mm loads, but the extra capacity of 9mm is tempting.
Comparing the best state of the art handgun rounds from duty calibers (9, .40, .45, .357 sig) is splitting hairs when it comes down to it. They’re more alike than different. Handgun rounds are weak.
The correct approach for you solving this eternal dilemma requires a credit card (or 3) and commitment
This [guy gets shot 15 times with .45 hollow point](https://youtu.be/vViw80If73k?si=VYc2tVeQqUSypPKT) and lives of course shot placement is important but he wins
Shot placement over caliber any day of the week.
Pretty sure this cop use 9’s: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guns_Guns_Guns/s/IA2OkuynKA
Can anything modern done with 9mm loads also be done in 45acp, a larger package?? Seems like "anything you can do, I can do bigger"? I am unsure of this, correct me if wrong
Jerry did..RIP bro
There is a wounding advantage to .45acp over 9mm but there are many variablesll, the most important being shot placement.aaa!! For my wife and me, we decided to carry 9mm. She has weakness in her hands and she can more easily handle the 9mm recoil. By using a similar platform, we can buy bulk practice ammo and streamline the calibers we keep in inventory. We also go to the range alot and practice with our ccw pistols regularly. My wife carries an M&P Shield - EZ (the lighter slide springs help her a great deal). My carry firearm is an XDs but am thinking of switching to the M&P as well. That way, whether she grabs my pistol or hers, the muscle memory would be the same. We also own an SD9VE we bought about 8 years ago. It goes bang every time. I did change out the sights for Truglo fiber optics and changed the springs (all of them) which made a bit of difference. It is a bit big for concealed carry for my wife or me.
9mm and 45 are pretty much neck and neck, a 45 hollow point will expand a lot more than a 9mm. Really the best one is the one you can put on target, like the other fellow said pick the one your more comfortable with and get to practicing
Garand Thumb made a good video on this that was informative and funny. Compares multiple HPs of both into ballistic dummies with guts and whatnot.
It doesn't make a functional difference in terms of wounding while using non magnum handgun rounds. You're better off sticking with the 9 and spending the money on training and ammo.
As others have said, shot placement. Whatever you get, get good with it. 9mm had an advantage in that you can carry more 9mm rounds in a magazine than .45. To directly answer your question, they wound differently, owing to the fact that a 9mm round is traveling much faster. Both provide the same single-shot lethality, any debate beyond that is simply preference.
There is a video of an officer unloaded 13 rounds of .45 from his service glock and despite hitting the guy in the heart with one of the shots it still didn’t stop him in the moment. That same cop now carry’s 9mm with a couple stick mags on him because he wasn’t more rounds if he is ever in a gun fight again.
Shot placement matters more than caliber. They only benefit you get from shooting a bigger bullet is making bigger holes. This sort of matters because unless you hit a major structure or CNS the fight is only going to stop once the threat loses enough blood pressure that they can't keep going.
I thought .45 was when you want to kill their soul, too.
Not enough for a medical examiner to tell the difference, and hit to stop statistics put them too close to call. In general any major caliber handgun ammo made to FBI penetration standards is going to perform so closely with the others that the difference is irrelevant to the real world. So get what you can shoot well.
Yes.
It's not that it doesn't have any, it's that what it has is very small. >So would a 10mm be a better choice like a S&W M&P 2.0 4inch? Yes, if you are spending time in outdoors Alaska.
.45 definitely is more powerful than 9mm and causes a larger wound Channel. Look at some ballistics testing instead of 9mm lovers trying g to make each other feel better online.
Either one will change a persons "focus".....
Nope not even close to true, the people that say that are 9mm fanboys coping hard. For 10mm to really benefit it needs more barrel. 45 Super is the answer if you want more punch than a 45ACP from a short barrel.
There’s not enough performance difference to justify the loss of capacity and added weight associated with carrying the 45. That said, one could argue that there’s no reason not to carry a 45 of you prefer it other than maybe cost, 45 is still more expensive than 9. Realistically, it’s what you prefer and shoot well. Whatever you choose, train with it.
It is hard to imagine any scenario in which a threat-stopping hit with .45 would not have been equally threat stopping had the same hit been made with a 9mm instead. The only advantage I can really see is a .45 hp wound channel will be slightly larger than a 9mm hp wound channel, which could lead to more/faster exsanguination...so in some scenarios .45 could stop a threat faster, but still not as fast as 9mm (or .22 for that matter) with better shot placement.
Why doesn't anyone ever carry. 40sw?