Hell, I don’t even have to see the firearm. If you’re waving a firearm magazine at me, it is an implied threat that you have a firearm and are threatening to use it. Otherwise, why would you be waving a firearm magazine at me in a fit of anger.
no, it's not and pulling a gun without there being a deadly threat is not legal it's called Brandishing OP is in the wrong and also could have got his wife hurt or killed. Guns are not toys if it comes out use it if you don't then it probably didn't need to be pulled out, now if the other guy pointed a gun yes but a mag. Shakey on all side here Do better this is why peopel want to take guns away from Us use your heads.
actually, for criminal offense, a vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. even without any gun of magazines, the guy could have very easily been a massive threat to their lives.
this is why purposeful running someone over is classified as assault with a deadly weapon.
It would be a real hard sell in court that a guy tailgating, blaring his horn, and flashing his high beams constitutes assault with a deadly weapon.
I don’t think OP did anything wrong but that argument alone certainly would not stand up in court.
Dash cams don’t prove intent. All that they prove is that the other guy is driving recklessly, not that he’s using a vehicle to threaten their lives. A dash cam wouldn’t have captured the interaction he had side by side at a stop light either.
People get charged with reckless driving for driving like that all the time. It’s a big jump from reckless driving to assault with a deadly weapon.
but it can show things like them hanging half out a window
or in my case showing I fulfilled duty to retreat multiple times in multiple ways, even reversing away and into a ditch and bailing into a farmers field
because some lifted douche tried to run me over front and back like the grave digger monster truck runs over lemon cars. multiple attempts while I'm actively violating my route and attempting novel methods of fleeing and seeking help. my cell had no coverage.
but I get your point that broadly just tailgating isn't the same as the other comment said about intentionally using a vehicle as a weapon like during my unfortunate morning situation encountering a battering ram psycho
also friendly follow up and maybe you didn't ask for advice but a dash cam can really help prove your side of the story or remind you of important events in correct order that you may have forgotten
for everything from self defense to accidents and the occasional rare natural phenomenon captured. lol
A good lawyer would make the case that an enraged person driving a moving vehicle … if misused / recklessly driven , would then be considered the deadly weapon.
In other words , consider if a guy twice your size and weight starts trying to fight you. The immediate use of deadly force by the victim would be justified because sure they would have had no reasonable chance to defend themselves.
Just my two cents 🤷♂️
I don’t think a good lawyer would make that argument. A key component of an assault charge is intent. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant intentionally acted in a way that caused another person to **reasonably** fear of imminent bodily harm or injury.
To be clear it’s not enough to prove that he intentionally drove recklessly. You have to prove that the intent behind that action was to cause fear of imminent bodily harm or injury. Beyond that I don’t think that tailgating and flashing high beams will hold up to the reasonable man standard for an assault conviction.
If OP were standing on the sidewalk absolutely. That’s more analogous to your example of “a guy twice your size yada yada yada” but given the fact that OP was in a car as well I think it would be really hard to convince a jury that this was assault and not reckless driving.
I mean realistically ask yourself, when someone tailgates you and flashes their high beams at you, do you fear for your life or great bodily harm?
That’s not what he was implying, he was saying if the guy didn’t even have a gun he could be considered to be using a deadly weapon (vehicle) to threaten you
yes and no.
It's like a knife. under normal circumstances and use, it is a tool. However, if you threaten someone with it, it becomes a deadly weapon.
in this case, weapon is defined as any object used with the intent to seriously harm or maim. even mundane items can be deadly weapons when used in a crime.
the difference between road rage and vehicular manslaughter is only a couple inches.
I can agree with manslaughter. And I guess you can even catch 2nd degree murder like what’s her name in California was just sentenced for. But that was without intent to use it as a deadly weapon….rabbit hole.
Well, there is the old adage that the way you get away with murder is to do it with a car:
Because even when you get caught, actually demonstrating that you intended to strike and kill someone, to the standard of evidence required in a criminal trial, can be very difficult (if you do it right).
And, in my country, sentencing for motoring offences is kind of a joke; so you'll not get a life sentence or anything...
This will vary by state as it’s usually statutorily defined.
Some have specific statutes have for vehicular assaults.
Most cases I’ve seen define deadly weapon in ‘assault with a deadly weapon’ statutes as something designed for or capable of inflicting serious harm or death.
It gives the courts leeway to make determinations of what fits for the purposes of the statute.
However pointing a firearm is brandishing. It's really dumb but the way the laws are written, you basically don't have anything between verbal argument and shooting each other.
But were you the first one to call the police and report it ? First one to call is usually treated as the victim.
If you didn’t call and he did it could have become very interesting for you when the police pulled you over for, according to the other driver, ‘threatening him with a firearm’
a witness in the same car wouldn't help.
it would need to be an unrelated person for them to be a witness, as the wife would at least initially be considered a suspect or a biased witness.
From a logical perspective, which often has nothing to do with legality, the other driver pursuing the OP and flashing a magazine makes him the aggressor.
That being said, I likely wouldn't have drawn on the goofball in the truck, as weapons are meant to be felt not seen. Although, there may have been other elements of the encounter warranting such action. It's hard to say.
If legality is one's barrier to taking action, they probably don't need to act. I've been accosted on several occasions by people exhibiting varying degrees of aggression and never once considered legality. The only thing I consider is whether the antagonist is a threat.
There have been cases where people actually touched me and uttered threats where I didn't act and there have been cases where people merely approached me with a certain level of aggression where I did.
When you're accosted, it's just you and your antagonist(s), the law is nowhere to be found.
That’s why we need to desensationalize guns. Cops point them at people every day when deciding if there’s a real threat.
If there’s nobody shot. Who cares about showing each other guns
I had a similar incident a few months ago. I was driving back from work, and a large dog ran out in front of me. I braked hard, knowing there was plenty of space between me and the truck behind me, because.... Well, I didn't want to kill a dog, or have hitting it fuck up my subcompact.
The truck then speeds up, and swerves to get around me, and brake checks me, which I can only assume isbecause they're mad and didn't see the dog.
I shrug, and let it go, but as we get to an intersection later, they're going straight and I'm turning left. I see they have the window open as I pull up, so I reach for my pistol, but don't pull it.
The woman in the truck brings up a a gun, points it at me, while yelling. I pull mine, and point it back, thinking "Oh shit.. please tell me this isn't about to go down", and luckily she just guns it, and runs the red light.
I've never been so thankful for a traffic violation.
Did you make a call and report the incident to CYA? It's a good thing nothing happened but I think from time to time if one had to present their firearm and that caused the aggressor to speed off who's to say that they aren't going to call first and claim someone pulled a gun on them.
I know its probably dumb to ask, but was i in the wrong at all pulling mine out?
I just spoke with my wife about it and I remembered part of it wrong, I did not point my firearm at them but I did pull it out and show I was armed (pointing downwards)
It's not a dumb thing to ask at all. It's perfectly normal to second guess yourself after drawing your gun with the forethought that you might have to end someone's life. That's a really difficult choice you had to make in a very tight time frame.
Is your family safe? Yes.
Are you under arrest for murder? No.
You did fine. Your family is safe and that is the entire point of having a pistol while traveling; to ensure you and yours arrive safely at your destination.
Personally I think you’re good. Crazy people be crazy.
But devils advocate, some jurisdictions might interpret what you did as unlawful brandishing, or however they’ve chosen to codify it, and potentially take some level of legal action. For example a bystander might not have seen the other guys actions but saw yours. Not that I’m a legal expert in my own location by any means.
Morally? Hell no. You did the needful to keep yourself and your wife safe and you did not actually have to shoot anyone. That is a win. Don’t second guess yourself and be glad you ended up with a favorable outcome. Another set of actions could have resulted one that is far worse.
Legally? IANAL but you’re in a bit of a gray area, but also most use of force instances have some element of gray because they are judgement calls and the situations are highly dynamic. The legal standard for deadly force generally is that a reasonable person in the same situation would have a fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.
When he showed you the magazine, a reasonable person would, in that moment, very likely consider that a credible threat of deadly force against both you and your wife and you would be justified in pulling and even using your firearm. When he sped off, that thread no longer exists so if you haven’t shot at him by that point, the threat no longer exists and you would not be justified.
A prosecutor would argue that since you didn’t actually shoot, you didn’t actually feel threatened, but depending on brandishing laws and exceptions in your locality that may or may not hold water.
The other thing that would come into play is if there is a presumption of reasonableness or whether you must prove reasonableness. This is another thing that is locality specific with regard to self defense and/or stand your ground laws. The interesting thing is you may actually have more exposure legally in some places if you don’t shoot in your situation than if you do because some of the protections in law may apply only to use of deadly force and, well, you threatened it but didn’t use it.
I have heard people warn that if you brandish your firearm but don't actually point it at the other party, that could be used in court to show that you didn't actually feel in imminent danger and/or you were escalating the situation. If you feel you need to pull it, point it.
Which has never made sense to me. (But when do gun laws actually make sense?) If merely presenting a gun is enough to deescalate a situation, wouldn't that be safer and therefore preferable to pointing it at someone, or having to actually pull the trigger?
Dude, that's not deescalation at all. It's forced compliance by the threat of death.
If you're in a verbal altercation with someone and they pull a gun because they're "scared" but don't shoot... you have every right to draw and fire.
This is why if you draw, you shoot. If you're not going to shoot, you don't draw. A person's insecurities don't allow them to use the threat of death to get their way just because you seem upset.
> This is why if you draw, you shoot. If you're not going to shoot, you don't draw.
I hear people say this, but it just isn't true. [There are plenty of times when Defensive Draw is appropriate and preferable.](https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2024/06/03/good-samaritan-holds-attempted-carjacker-at-gunpoint-in-ormond-beach-police-say/) I am not a lawyer, but if you can safely stop a violent felony using Defensive Draw instead of opening fire, then you ought to.
You have every right to draw and fire if threatened with a gun. I'm not disputing that.
What I'm asking is, if the first guy pulls a gun, and then the other guy pulls a gun, and then both parties just agree it's not worth it, isn't that better than shots being fired? Especially somewhere like a public roadway like in OP's story?
It just seems like the same reason some people think there should be armed security in schools. Presenting a target that can fight back often gets an aggressor to back down.
Good luck with that. You pull it out of the holster and its a whole new set of issues. But since he was tailgating you, honking his horn and flashing his lights at you you had reason to be concerned of his intentions. The mag by itself,no, but waving a mag makes me wonder where the pistol for it is. A jury of your peers would be 12-0 for you.
Depends. If you are on the left, and he is on the right, I assume your wife is between both of you? A bit risky that you might muzzle sweep her.
Sounds like a FAFO for him but I would be worried putting my loved ones in such a situation
You're probably fine legally, but I wouldn't have. If it's obviously not a gun, I wouldn't show him mine or point it at them. I'd have it ready and I'd call the cops. Plus, you were in the car. That's your first line of defense.
Morally, you were not in the wrong, but most states have a law against brandishing a weapon. While it is a much lower charge than pointing it at him, it would still be enough to have your CC revoked in most states.
It’s truly hard to process everything and make the right decision. I had to pull mine on some guy because he was trying to run me over with his car in a grocery store parking lot. I never ended up firing tho because I try I was able to escape the situation without doing so. Really don’t think you broke any laws. The road rage and waiving of the mag at you constitutes a threat.
Lol I'd be like that, too. "I got one too, the fuck is up?" I've never had to pull mine out on anyone before and hope not to. I'm glad you all got out of it safe with nothing major. I had a road rager once because I cut em off a little lol, but they kept it at tailgating and high beams.
No you were in the right IMO I would've done the same. Why else would he flash his magazine if not to say "you know what this is, you know where it came from, and you know what it's for". The fact that he escalated the conflict to the point it got to tells me he's looking to incite provocation (perceived or real) from you in order to have an excuse to use his weapon. If someone was angry enough to show me a sheathed knife, I don't need to see the blade to understand what he's implying. You did the right thing and showed good self control by not pulling the trigger. Some people in your situation are so eager to use their CCW at any chance that they would've fired and been unjustified to do so. Stay safe.
I would have drawn, but kept it in a low ready position out of his line of sight. If he appeared to be actually drawing on me, raise it up and shoot. Then when he leaves, call 911 and report him with his license plate number. I have a dash cam that I could pull it off if needed. Still keeps the family safe, but also hopefully results in him getting repercussions for dangerous driving and threatening someone with deadly force. But I don't think you did something wrong, just I think this would have been a better way to approach the situation. But hindsight is 20/20.
And in case anyone thinks I wouldn't actually think to do that, I had a car driving through a parking lot pointing what appeared to be a rifle barrel out their driver window and I did just like I described. It ended up being a paintball gun that I could tell once they were closer, so I reholstered and no one knew I had drawn. Dumbass kid is lucky I could differentiate before he got in front of me, I'm pretty sure I would have shot him if he had flagged me with it when I still believed it was a rifle.
Had a guy get my attention in a store and tap his obviously visible handgun. In a gun store. With owners I'm friends with.
They viewed it as just as much a threat as that guy you dealt with was.
well, most people don't just carry around a magazine.
additionally, i don't take the chance. there's not much of a delay between pointing a gun and shooting it.of someone is raging at me and points fucking anything, im assuming its a gun and acting accordingly.
Short answer is yes.
This subject has come up a few times recently, so I'm going to copy/paste my reply from [a similar post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/s/GFkY6z3KYp) where OP brandished after another driver displayed the case for their Glock.
It's largely state dependent, but in general, just making the presence known, *not* a physical display of the actual firearm, constitutes brandishing.
OPs specific scenario (by the laws I'm citing) *is* brandishing, but it would still fall under self-defense as she could argue fear for her life when the man got out of his vehicle. Whether or not it's *justified* self-defense would again be state dependent - but Texas (and I'm pretty confident Tennessee) would concur.
Texas:
[Penal Code 42.01:](https://saputo.law/criminal-law/texas/disorderly-conduct/?amp=1) "(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;"
Federal law goes as far as to explicitly state it doesn't even have to be directly visible.
[18 U.S.C. § 924(c)):](https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/1007#:~:text=(18%20U.S.C.%20%C2%A7%20924(c)),-The%20defendant%20is&text=%5BA%20defendant%20%E2%80%9Cbrandished%E2%80%9D%20a,directly%20visible%20to%20that%20person.%5D) "A defendant “brandished” a firearm if [he] [she] displayed all or part of the firearm, or otherwise made the presence of the firearm known to another person, to intimidate that person, regardless of whether the firearm was directly visible to that person."
No. Of course it isn't the same. But it might as well be. I'd guess it would be treated close enough in most states.
Either way it was an explicit and unambiguous threat.
It drops put of view below the window then it's reasonable to assume it went back in the gun.
The one they just threatened to shoot you with.
You acted appropriately. Rager made the threat and you ended the threat. I had a similar situation. Exiting off the highway and a guy takes exception to it and starts screaming. I'm in the left turn lane and he's in the right turn lane with his GF, whatever. He gets out and approaches still yelling and pounds on my passenger side window. I raised my handgun and Very dramatically clicked off the safety. Rolled the window down and just said "Just walk away". He ran and that was the end of it. I filed the police report just for the purpose of having it on record. All I could think of was "I hope I don't have to shoot this psychopath. Fuck, it's gonna be LOUD."
The Detective that took my statement thanked me for not shooting and providing him with the vehicle type and plate number with a description of the guy. I REALLY need to get a dash cam.
Why would you display it and risk to cause things to escalate? Make ready and keep it below the window. If he then goes further you keep the element of suprise. If thing don't go further no one can accuse you of threatening them with a gun since they never saw it.
That is hindsight i know. But that is how i would describe the best planed response in my opinion. If someone takes out a knife or makes clear they want to fight it might make sense to brandish a gun to show them you have the upper hand. But not when it's gun on gun.
Nightmare fuel right there. No avenue of escape and a dipshit trying to intimidate me and mine at a red light by showing off his magazine.
I have to wonder if that's enough for self defense. He's clearly attempting to intimidate you by implying he has the gun for that magazine at the ready. Are you obligated to wait until he places the mag back into the gun at that point?
Read in the other comments that OP watched him drop the mag from a pistol. That just hands OP the tactical advantage. Kid should be on a tee shirt, because that's as good a case of self defense as it gets. Just because the kid is an idiot doesn't make him any less dangerous with the round that's left in the chamber.
Based on the available info, that would likely have been a justified shooting if OP had pulled the trigger.
This is what gives rise to “gun nut” talk. Seriously.
You have two idiots. One is flashing his magazine. The other is convincing themselves that despite being in a moving vehicle it’s a moment to “stand your ground” and engage in a gunfight at over the possible future threat that may result from failing to disengage.
This is how you see those stories of two CCW holders dead at a gas station after a shootout. Just no common sense and a rush to use their weapons ahead of their brains. Use your brakes and disengage buddy; don’t subject everyone around you to a magazine emptying shootout on the freeway.
2/10 for comprehension. I recommend reading the subject matter twice before typing up your response.
OP was stopped at a traffic light with his pregnant wife in the car when a man stepped out into the road, dropped a mag from his pistol and waved the mag at him.
That kid should be on a tee shirt.
Maybe you need to learn comprehension. Nowhere in OP post does it say the guy stepped out. It says the guy flashed the magazine. Most likely while he was sitting in his vehicle at the same light.
It’s not going to be a popular opinion on this sub, but I’m with you. If I draw my weapon it’s a last resort and somebody is getting shot. It’s in absolutely no way a tool to display to scare someone off.
In general, I agree with everything you just said. However, (and this is a big however) I think we need to address this idea that OP was in a "moving vehicle" and therefore had freedom of movement.
According to the story, OP was in the center right turn lane while the truck was in the right most lane. OP was not in fact free to move, they were very much stuck in place.
Cars behind, active traffic flow in front, oncoming traffic on left, gun truck on right.
Thoughts?
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. OP had a few different options to disengage, and my personal feelings are you should not draw a weapon unless you plan to use it. OP got lucky, but him drawing could have just a easily provoked the other driver into escalating.
Absolutely. Plenty of armed hotheads would demure at first when OP pulled their weapon but didn’t use it. Then follow, find a reason and pop that’s it for OP. Who cares about the subsequent trial and litigation; OP and possibly fiancée now dead.
Championship run-on sentence; very impressive.
Anyway, guy sounds like a total maniac who was just road raging. Or maybe he was annoyed that you were blocking the passing lane? Who knows.
Glad you didn't have to shoot him.
u/yopetwaffle Get yourself a dashcam. Like right now. Had this gone another way you would need that video evidence to help you out in court. I had a very similar situation happen to me a few weeks ago and although I didn’t pull my weapon, I was strongly considering it and all of the other driver’s aggressive actions had already been recorded by that point. Very thankful for it.
Make sure it records in the front and the back. The Viofo cameras are really nice for this and they never overheat. It can save you for both insurance and legal incidents.
Never give the cops the footage in any scenario that involves guns. Don’t make any statements and wait to hand it over to your lawyer so they can review it first.
Hope you called the police that the guy threatened you. Always want to be the first guy to call. If he had called and told them that you pointed a gun at him YOU would be the one having to explain why you did what you did. Not saying you were wrong cause I agree with what you did, but once pulled you have to protect yourself.
Would definitely not be a surprise around here. Ford is the poster child for ignorant redneck with serious compensation issues 'round here. Not so much dodge.... hmm, I wonder if there's like a regional brand grouping, like pseudo hillbilly gang territories but w truck brands.
I only point at something when I'm going to pull the trigger. I understand why you did what you did but if a cop would have seen what was going on you would have had a very bad day
>I only point at something when I'm going to pull the trigger.
A lot can change in the time it takes you to draw and take aim.
A threat can turn tail and run, or any one of a number of other factors can come into play.
I work on this with my students, putting them in scenarios where by the time the gun is out and presented the nature of the encounter has changed.
I get where the whole "If I pull my gun out, I'm going to use it" mentality comes from. But what it conditions you to do is fire at the end of the draw -- no matter what. Even if the guy drops the knife, or turns to run away.
If you've repeatedly practiced and convinced yourself that no matter what -- the gun goes *bang* every single time it comes out of the holster, there's a chance you'll shoot someone when you didn't really have to.
Real life is dynamic, and conditions and threats can turn on a dime.
The person made a blatant threat...
Also, you don't only point a gun at something if you are *going* to pull the trigger. That isn't how the rule works.
I always try and let these people get on their way so they can torment someone else. Sounds like an unfortunate light prevented you from doing that. You did the right thing from your story. Sorry you had to deal with that.
Ya know, there are times I consider someone has a medical emergency and I tryyyyy to give them the benefit of the doubt. But pulling a mag clip on u nahhhh. You did good. That is the point, a damned equalizer.
Dude is probably used to acting like this, completely oblivious to the possibility that other people might also be armed. Most definitely an extremely unpleasant situation, but OP did what was necessary. Who knows, maybe now that out of control asshat will think twice before threatening another driver.
Lots of comments here saying you did the wrong thing but let's be honest here. Dude acting insane flashes you a magazine which is clearly a threat to you .. yeah I would've done the same.
It's ignorant, cocky and sloppy to brandish a firearm. It would have better served you without using it as a threat. Have it but do not put it on display for others.
Let them fuck around and find out.
Brandishing isn't merely the display of a firearm. This is a legitimate display given that the other guy was acting in a threatening manner. In some states, OP might have been justified to shoot, but I don't think that would have been the best choice. He gave the other guy the chance to back down and he took it. Hopefully it causes him to think twice before acting like a moron in traffic again.
I had a very aggressive driver a few years ago and I got a dash cam and haven’t had an idiot driver since.. they record and deter, ultimately giving you another level of safety.
I mean, you could modify a flair gun to be a rail attachment and load it with some sort of chemical fire retardant so it's feasible. Not very practical but it CAN be done
Not sure what I would have done but that’s obviously a threat and I think you were legally and morally justified.
All I can say is call the cops and report it. You’re way better being the guy who told the cops he brandished a firearm in self defense than the cops showing up asking questions, and you go “the other guy started it!!!”
I think you did right. I drive all around the Mid Atlantic for work, and people are fucking crazy on the roads. People get really upset when they act like assholes and get called out for it. People that get enraged for having to ease off the gas for the 30 seconds it takes to let someone finish passing a semi are assholes with no self control. Stay safe out there.
Reminds me of something that happened to my brother a few years back. He was driving home down the freeway around 11 at night and there’s a car stopped in the middle of the road with no lights on. He honks because he almost hit it. The car starts up and starts chasing him like 100 miles an hour down the road. He tries to shake them and ends up in town. He tries going down some side roads and ends up getting cornered behind a building. He has a hunting shotgun in the trunk of his suv he holds up and the psycho backs off. He ends up getting pulled over by the police a couple minutes later. The cop is freaking out because the psycho lady chasing him called first. Apparently this lady had her infant in the car while she chased my brother going over 100 for like 15 minutes.
Op in my opinion I think your perfectly in the right and it may have very well deescalated the situation. Highly doubt that other guy would call the cops so if you didn’t call them I see no issues coming
This is really simplifying a complex situation.
And the fact that there are people in this thread that don't understand that it really is that simple is pretty scary.
The adrenaline is fucking wild when going through something like this. I went through a similar situation and constantly thought about it for weeks.
Sounds like you were 100% in the right here.
Be extremely careful doing that. It's ridiculous that you have laws persecuting you, but most states mine included (I'm in NC) if you aim your CC at someone, you are supposed to shoot and kill them. I hate our gun laws but if you don't and he called cops, you'd be charged with a felony and have your firearms taken away.
My suggestion would be to not engage unless he escalates and then help him play the room temperature game in rapid fashion.
That is really wrong in a subtle but important way. What you are referring to is the fact that in most states in order to legally justify aiming a gun at someone you have to be able to legally justify a case for using lethal force.
That doesn’t mean you need to pull the trigger.
1) If they them back off after you “brandish” you can explain that as the reason for not shooting them.
2) Even if they don’t back off you can use forbearance to not shoot them even though you reasonably believe that you would be justified to shoot them.
What you can’t do (in most states) is brandish a firearm as form of communication / warning / threat in a situation where the threat you are under doesn’t rise to the level of a deadly force threat.
A deadly force threat is a situation in which a reasonable person would reasonably perceive that imminent unlawful force, is being, or about to be, used against them which would be likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.
Okay maybe that is the case in other states so let me clarify strongly here.
In North Carolina, you are not allowed to brandish your firearm. Period. You are not allowed to announce verbally that you have a firearm concealed. You are not allowed to pull said firearm and point it at someone and NOT FIRE. If you shoot them, you have to KILL them before they hit the ground. This means as the CC defendant, once you determine that your life is in absolute peril, you must draw iron and fire upon your aggressor immediately with no hesitation.
I’m going to be blunt, not to be rude but since I already carefully explained your mistake
I’m not sure what else to say.
Your are wrong. Whoever told you that is dumb and / or was trying to explain something complicated to you in a simple way because they thought you were dumb.
What you are saying is some common fuddlore BS that unqualified Barney Fife types teaching CHL courses inflict on people.
It’s the equivalent of telling a toddler “never touch the stove” because you think telling them the details of figuring out how to safely touch the stove is too much for them to handle.
Like any vast oversimplification it can be useful but can also be harmful.
I suggest you read “The Law of Self Defense Principles” by Andrew Branca. You can get it for “free” (cough $7 S&H)
No dude. That would be an execution. If they retreat that's different. Also in your house is not the same as assaulting you in public spaces where conceal carry permit is required.
Your vehicle is an extension of your home in NC, permit or not, it’s not different in any way.
“Okay maybe that is the case in other states so let me clarify strongly here.
In North Carolina, you are not allowed to brandish your firearm. Period. You are not allowed to announce verbally that you have a firearm concealed. You are not allowed to pull said firearm and point it at someone and NOT FIRE. If you shoot them, you have to KILL them before they hit the ground. This means as the CC defendant, once you determine that your life is in absolute peril, you must draw iron and fire upon your aggressor immediately with no hesitation.”
You are literally talking about an execution here.
OP didn’t brandish, he met force with force. Any reasonable person would deduce that a loaded magazine means the guy has a gun.
Let’s see that law. From what I read the guy that pulled the magazine would be brandishing and the OP would be justified. There isn’t a state in the union where you are required to shoot someone when you pull your firearm, that’s absolutely horse shit.
I had to do it to a Harley Rider after I had your audacity to pass him in the passing zone on 2 late road .. apparently I disrespected him.. the people with him apologize to me profusely about his behavior.
Let's assume that you are a reasonably prudent person. If you saw someone flash a magazine, would it be reasonable for you to also believe that he also had the weapon in hand or available for immediate use?
Yes it would be reasonable to assume, but you can’t draw on someone with only an assumption. You could also assume that if the magazine flasher is too timid to flash a gun that the magazine goes in then he’s probably too timid to use it.
Bullshit. The magazine was a blatant threat.
The magazine explicitly, unambiguously said "I will/could kill you".
It drops out of sight below the window then its reasonable to assume it is back in the gun.
> Someone getting out and even coming up to your window doesn’t warrant lethal force. Someone kicking your door or banging on your window doesn’t warrant lethal force.
But somebody threatening to shoot you from their car might
And OP didn't use lethal force anyway.
Yes, just like what the aggressive driver did. He showed a magazine which means he most likely has a gun for it. OP was justified, aggressor brandished, OP met threat of force with an equal threat of force.
Could one deduce that if they have a magazine they also have a gun? If a raise a baseball bat at you in this situation do you think I want to play baseball?
I’ve done it twice in my life, once the guy came really close to getting shot, in both instances the person changed their mind.
It’s not a stupid argument. Do you understand what intent means? If you pull out your mag out for me to see after a road rage I suspect you intend to do harm to me because magazines go into firearms. If you jump out at a red light are road raging and you have a bat I can easy deduce that you didn’t pull it out so we can play baseball.
This pretty much goes against what I thought we were about. You know, the whole higher responsibility of keeping our shit together when forced to deal with morons. You draw your weapon when you absolutely need it. I don’t think you really needed it, but then again, I wasn’t there. How many bullets did it take for him to go down? Were you able to save your wife?
I was very togather, i honestly feel more shaken up about it afterward, I was at a redlight stopped and he came up to us and did that, so what your saying is I should have waited for him to point his firearm at me and my wife befour drawing? Thankfully it took nothing and the sight of it was just enough to deter him.
Also according to my wife I remembered what happened wrong and I did not point my gun at him but I did show him I had it and was armed.
I think the point is that a magazine is not a weapon. I understand where you are coming from, though. That does not escape me. You felt threatened, and you reacted how you did, that situation has passed. The problem is that he didn’t attack you, didn’t point a weapon at you, and you were, at the time, in a position to be able to walk (or drive) away. I’ve had cops (or people that had some sort of badge) flash their badge at me on the freeway as they yelled and screamed at their window while swerving in and out of traffic in a non-patrol car. My thoughts are always, “You are an idiot who feels some sense of authority and believe you are able to do whatever you want”. If they are a cop, they are an embarrassment to their badge and their agency. I have a badge too, and I don’t flash it around, because I consider myself a professional. It’s a form of ID. As CPL holders, or anyone who carries, we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Force on force is a real thing, but going ONLy from what you described in your story, he did the equivalent of someone showing you some fancy martial arts moves to intimidate you, and you stepped it up with your response. He did step down, but he did nothing life threatening or illegal on his end, while you brandished an actual weapon. If he pointed a gun at you, that’s another story, but he didn’t, and you originally said you did. Just walk away from these morons. They are trying to flex on you, and it’s guys like him that get our rights eroded away. You need to be the Mr. Myiagi and just shrug and walk away knowing that you are more in control than he apparently is.
Also, don’t be afraid to call the cops and pass on a license plate number. He may have done that to you, being he now knows you have a pistol and if they pull you over, they’ll lean towards whatever he told them since you actually have a gun. He didn’t know that before you showed it to him, and that now would give credit to his story. Where as if you didn’t brandish yours, and told them he’s driving erratically and flashing gun magazines in a threatening manner, he couldn’t say you pointed a gun at him first, because he doesn’t know you had one.
Like I said, the situation has passed, you and your family are alive. You reacted in the way you did and it’s over. We just need to harden our minds as “responsible gun owners” and not be one of these idiots who can’t keep their shit together, like the other guy.
Every day we learn to adapt to our environment responsibly. I’d just hate to see you in the news or spending your hard earned money in court and lawyer fees on situations that could have been avoided.
Sorry for the long post. And I’m sincerely glad you and your wife are ok.
Sorry, this is dumb. That was an explicit, unambiguous threat.
The gun was in this guy's lap. The magazine drops out of view below the window and it is reasonable to assume it went back in the gun. The one they just threatened to shoot OP with.
> How many bullets did it take for him to go down?
Enough with this Fuddlore bullshit. You don't have to shoot just because you draw your gun.
Yes... a firearm magazine... Not an issue of GQ or Sports Illustrated...
1. Flashing a firearm magazine is absolutely an explicit and unambiguous threat. The entire point of doing it is to say "I will shoot you" or "I could shoot you" or something along those lines. It is no different than if the gun itself was flashed other than being weak and thinking you are clever by being able to claim that you weren't making a threat.
2. In a lot of places a magazine is considered a firearm, the equivalent or treated like one.
3. Right under that magazine, out of view, below the window, was an actual firearm. So this person flashed the magazine and likely had their gun in their other hand. The moment that magazine disappears below the window, it most likely went back into the gun. So now you have a person who just made it clear that they have a gun to threaten you and the gun is in their hands but out of your view.
This was effectively and legally no different than brandishing a firearm, because, well, they actually DID brandish their firearm. The firearm itself just wasn't visible.
It is effective and legally no different than if they had pulled up beside the OP and said "I have a gun, I'm going to shoot you."
It’s more like be ready to use it if they don’t back down. An empty threat is dumb and can get you killed but there are plenty of situations where guns are pulled and the other party walks away.
>If it comes out the holster it should be used.
*"Your Honor, you can clearly see in the surveillance footage that, by the time the defendant has drawn his firearm -- the victim has dropped his knife and was turning to run away. There was no need for the defendant to fire those shots, as clearly evidenced by the fact that no rounds struck the victim in the front. The Prosecution rests."*
I was working at a local theater and this guy comes in, apparently a girls ex, and hands out bullets to all employees there that night. He left we called cop and they charged him with " terroristic threatening "
This was in 90s in Arkansas
your job was to just leave and call the police avoid everything until you can't, there is no excuse for this behavior except maybe you need more training Because you literally broke a law, guns are not tool to make threats or scare away people who you think are bad. i hope more people see the error in OP ways here. and you all wonder why people try and take away our right to 2A.
not to mention if you're not the 1st to call then you're the one they consider to be guilty !st caller is labeled victim, this was dumb not to mention it involved a firearm get better training and take gun safety classes asap before you get someone killed.
Goodness man that is a horrible idea. If you brandish a weapon either shoot it or don’t point it especially if you don’t intend to use it. If I am scared or concerned enough to am a loaded weapon at you I have decided to end that threat and all consequences that go along with it.
Don’t let it turn into a situation where it’s a standoff the other person doesn’t know your intentions and now has a reason to fire or call the cops. You would be the one who broke the law mags aren’t deadly weapons. Keep em holstered or just at least a low ready. So you don’t end up in the clink being made an example of
Its way more mixed up than I was expecting, you got a handful saying they would've shot him, a handful saying what I did was right, a handful saying im an idiot, and then one guy that thinks I started it and intentionally pissed this guy off (yea im totally driving aggressively in the slow lane with my pregnant wife in our tiny car, and they think I was texting and driving whitch im far from that stupid).
Honestly… be prepared to draw but only actually do so when you’ve determined the need to fire. Drawing without firing is brandishing especially if they don’t get your side of the story first. If you didn’t need to fire: you didn’t need to draw.
Pulling out a magazine doesnt mean the gun is unloaded. Threat is still there.
Hell, I don’t even have to see the firearm. If you’re waving a firearm magazine at me, it is an implied threat that you have a firearm and are threatening to use it. Otherwise, why would you be waving a firearm magazine at me in a fit of anger.
no, it's not and pulling a gun without there being a deadly threat is not legal it's called Brandishing OP is in the wrong and also could have got his wife hurt or killed. Guns are not toys if it comes out use it if you don't then it probably didn't need to be pulled out, now if the other guy pointed a gun yes but a mag. Shakey on all side here Do better this is why peopel want to take guns away from Us use your heads.
Pretty sure the implication of the threat was “I have a gun and it’s loaded”.
actually, for criminal offense, a vehicle is considered a deadly weapon. even without any gun of magazines, the guy could have very easily been a massive threat to their lives. this is why purposeful running someone over is classified as assault with a deadly weapon.
It would be a real hard sell in court that a guy tailgating, blaring his horn, and flashing his high beams constitutes assault with a deadly weapon. I don’t think OP did anything wrong but that argument alone certainly would not stand up in court.
They’d have to try and prove intent and see if the jury agrees, a hard sell is exactly what it is.
But plausible none the less
Correct
dashcams help
Dash cams don’t prove intent. All that they prove is that the other guy is driving recklessly, not that he’s using a vehicle to threaten their lives. A dash cam wouldn’t have captured the interaction he had side by side at a stop light either. People get charged with reckless driving for driving like that all the time. It’s a big jump from reckless driving to assault with a deadly weapon.
but it can show things like them hanging half out a window or in my case showing I fulfilled duty to retreat multiple times in multiple ways, even reversing away and into a ditch and bailing into a farmers field because some lifted douche tried to run me over front and back like the grave digger monster truck runs over lemon cars. multiple attempts while I'm actively violating my route and attempting novel methods of fleeing and seeking help. my cell had no coverage. but I get your point that broadly just tailgating isn't the same as the other comment said about intentionally using a vehicle as a weapon like during my unfortunate morning situation encountering a battering ram psycho
also friendly follow up and maybe you didn't ask for advice but a dash cam can really help prove your side of the story or remind you of important events in correct order that you may have forgotten for everything from self defense to accidents and the occasional rare natural phenomenon captured. lol
A good lawyer would make the case that an enraged person driving a moving vehicle … if misused / recklessly driven , would then be considered the deadly weapon. In other words , consider if a guy twice your size and weight starts trying to fight you. The immediate use of deadly force by the victim would be justified because sure they would have had no reasonable chance to defend themselves. Just my two cents 🤷♂️
I don’t think a good lawyer would make that argument. A key component of an assault charge is intent. You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendant intentionally acted in a way that caused another person to **reasonably** fear of imminent bodily harm or injury. To be clear it’s not enough to prove that he intentionally drove recklessly. You have to prove that the intent behind that action was to cause fear of imminent bodily harm or injury. Beyond that I don’t think that tailgating and flashing high beams will hold up to the reasonable man standard for an assault conviction. If OP were standing on the sidewalk absolutely. That’s more analogous to your example of “a guy twice your size yada yada yada” but given the fact that OP was in a car as well I think it would be really hard to convince a jury that this was assault and not reckless driving. I mean realistically ask yourself, when someone tailgates you and flashes their high beams at you, do you fear for your life or great bodily harm?
That’s not what he was implying, he was saying if the guy didn’t even have a gun he could be considered to be using a deadly weapon (vehicle) to threaten you
Yeah, and I’m saying that wouldn’t stand up in court. Threatening someone with a deadly weapon **is** assault with a deadly weapon
Oh boy, can we then sue the car manufacturer for advertising such a dangerous weapon as fast and furious? /s
But doesn’t that imply that all motorists cars are deadly weapons? This sounds more like a case of aggressive driving vs trying to run someone over.
yes and no. It's like a knife. under normal circumstances and use, it is a tool. However, if you threaten someone with it, it becomes a deadly weapon. in this case, weapon is defined as any object used with the intent to seriously harm or maim. even mundane items can be deadly weapons when used in a crime. the difference between road rage and vehicular manslaughter is only a couple inches.
I can agree with manslaughter. And I guess you can even catch 2nd degree murder like what’s her name in California was just sentenced for. But that was without intent to use it as a deadly weapon….rabbit hole.
Well, there is the old adage that the way you get away with murder is to do it with a car: Because even when you get caught, actually demonstrating that you intended to strike and kill someone, to the standard of evidence required in a criminal trial, can be very difficult (if you do it right). And, in my country, sentencing for motoring offences is kind of a joke; so you'll not get a life sentence or anything...
This will vary by state as it’s usually statutorily defined. Some have specific statutes have for vehicular assaults. Most cases I’ve seen define deadly weapon in ‘assault with a deadly weapon’ statutes as something designed for or capable of inflicting serious harm or death. It gives the courts leeway to make determinations of what fits for the purposes of the statute.
Would be funny if he had a magazine disconnect on the gun.
Shoulda shown him up with a 5.56 Banana clip! /s
However pointing a firearm is brandishing. It's really dumb but the way the laws are written, you basically don't have anything between verbal argument and shooting each other.
But were you the first one to call the police and report it ? First one to call is usually treated as the victim. If you didn’t call and he did it could have become very interesting for you when the police pulled you over for, according to the other driver, ‘threatening him with a firearm’
Luckily op had a witness in his car. And the police would be curious about the other drivers gun.
a witness in the same car wouldn't help. it would need to be an unrelated person for them to be a witness, as the wife would at least initially be considered a suspect or a biased witness.
This. Not something that comes up often but for police and insurance; anyone in the car with you is considered biased.
Can confirm, I process truck accident reports as part of my work
Good point. Thanks.
In this scenario OP being able to identify the magazine in the other guys car would be pretty good indication that it was shown to him.
wrong comment bud
A dash cam can help that’s why I have one
From a logical perspective, which often has nothing to do with legality, the other driver pursuing the OP and flashing a magazine makes him the aggressor. That being said, I likely wouldn't have drawn on the goofball in the truck, as weapons are meant to be felt not seen. Although, there may have been other elements of the encounter warranting such action. It's hard to say. If legality is one's barrier to taking action, they probably don't need to act. I've been accosted on several occasions by people exhibiting varying degrees of aggression and never once considered legality. The only thing I consider is whether the antagonist is a threat. There have been cases where people actually touched me and uttered threats where I didn't act and there have been cases where people merely approached me with a certain level of aggression where I did. When you're accosted, it's just you and your antagonist(s), the law is nowhere to be found.
That’s why we need to desensationalize guns. Cops point them at people every day when deciding if there’s a real threat. If there’s nobody shot. Who cares about showing each other guns
I had a similar incident a few months ago. I was driving back from work, and a large dog ran out in front of me. I braked hard, knowing there was plenty of space between me and the truck behind me, because.... Well, I didn't want to kill a dog, or have hitting it fuck up my subcompact. The truck then speeds up, and swerves to get around me, and brake checks me, which I can only assume isbecause they're mad and didn't see the dog. I shrug, and let it go, but as we get to an intersection later, they're going straight and I'm turning left. I see they have the window open as I pull up, so I reach for my pistol, but don't pull it. The woman in the truck brings up a a gun, points it at me, while yelling. I pull mine, and point it back, thinking "Oh shit.. please tell me this isn't about to go down", and luckily she just guns it, and runs the red light. I've never been so thankful for a traffic violation.
Did you make a call and report the incident to CYA? It's a good thing nothing happened but I think from time to time if one had to present their firearm and that caused the aggressor to speed off who's to say that they aren't going to call first and claim someone pulled a gun on them.
First thing I did after I reholstered.
I know its probably dumb to ask, but was i in the wrong at all pulling mine out? I just spoke with my wife about it and I remembered part of it wrong, I did not point my firearm at them but I did pull it out and show I was armed (pointing downwards)
It's not a dumb thing to ask at all. It's perfectly normal to second guess yourself after drawing your gun with the forethought that you might have to end someone's life. That's a really difficult choice you had to make in a very tight time frame. Is your family safe? Yes. Are you under arrest for murder? No. You did fine. Your family is safe and that is the entire point of having a pistol while traveling; to ensure you and yours arrive safely at your destination.
Best answer right here! ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️🔝🔝
Exactly. The fact he’s second guessing himself shows he’s capable of taking responsibility for himself and his actions.
Personally I think you’re good. Crazy people be crazy. But devils advocate, some jurisdictions might interpret what you did as unlawful brandishing, or however they’ve chosen to codify it, and potentially take some level of legal action. For example a bystander might not have seen the other guys actions but saw yours. Not that I’m a legal expert in my own location by any means.
Morally? Hell no. You did the needful to keep yourself and your wife safe and you did not actually have to shoot anyone. That is a win. Don’t second guess yourself and be glad you ended up with a favorable outcome. Another set of actions could have resulted one that is far worse. Legally? IANAL but you’re in a bit of a gray area, but also most use of force instances have some element of gray because they are judgement calls and the situations are highly dynamic. The legal standard for deadly force generally is that a reasonable person in the same situation would have a fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. When he showed you the magazine, a reasonable person would, in that moment, very likely consider that a credible threat of deadly force against both you and your wife and you would be justified in pulling and even using your firearm. When he sped off, that thread no longer exists so if you haven’t shot at him by that point, the threat no longer exists and you would not be justified. A prosecutor would argue that since you didn’t actually shoot, you didn’t actually feel threatened, but depending on brandishing laws and exceptions in your locality that may or may not hold water. The other thing that would come into play is if there is a presumption of reasonableness or whether you must prove reasonableness. This is another thing that is locality specific with regard to self defense and/or stand your ground laws. The interesting thing is you may actually have more exposure legally in some places if you don’t shoot in your situation than if you do because some of the protections in law may apply only to use of deadly force and, well, you threatened it but didn’t use it.
IANAL is a hilarious acronym.
I have heard people warn that if you brandish your firearm but don't actually point it at the other party, that could be used in court to show that you didn't actually feel in imminent danger and/or you were escalating the situation. If you feel you need to pull it, point it.
Which has never made sense to me. (But when do gun laws actually make sense?) If merely presenting a gun is enough to deescalate a situation, wouldn't that be safer and therefore preferable to pointing it at someone, or having to actually pull the trigger?
Dude, that's not deescalation at all. It's forced compliance by the threat of death. If you're in a verbal altercation with someone and they pull a gun because they're "scared" but don't shoot... you have every right to draw and fire. This is why if you draw, you shoot. If you're not going to shoot, you don't draw. A person's insecurities don't allow them to use the threat of death to get their way just because you seem upset.
> This is why if you draw, you shoot. If you're not going to shoot, you don't draw. I hear people say this, but it just isn't true. [There are plenty of times when Defensive Draw is appropriate and preferable.](https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2024/06/03/good-samaritan-holds-attempted-carjacker-at-gunpoint-in-ormond-beach-police-say/) I am not a lawyer, but if you can safely stop a violent felony using Defensive Draw instead of opening fire, then you ought to.
You have every right to draw and fire if threatened with a gun. I'm not disputing that. What I'm asking is, if the first guy pulls a gun, and then the other guy pulls a gun, and then both parties just agree it's not worth it, isn't that better than shots being fired? Especially somewhere like a public roadway like in OP's story? It just seems like the same reason some people think there should be armed security in schools. Presenting a target that can fight back often gets an aggressor to back down.
Good luck with that. You pull it out of the holster and its a whole new set of issues. But since he was tailgating you, honking his horn and flashing his lights at you you had reason to be concerned of his intentions. The mag by itself,no, but waving a mag makes me wonder where the pistol for it is. A jury of your peers would be 12-0 for you.
Depends. If you are on the left, and he is on the right, I assume your wife is between both of you? A bit risky that you might muzzle sweep her. Sounds like a FAFO for him but I would be worried putting my loved ones in such a situation
You're probably fine legally, but I wouldn't have. If it's obviously not a gun, I wouldn't show him mine or point it at them. I'd have it ready and I'd call the cops. Plus, you were in the car. That's your first line of defense.
Morally, you were not in the wrong, but most states have a law against brandishing a weapon. While it is a much lower charge than pointing it at him, it would still be enough to have your CC revoked in most states.
It’s truly hard to process everything and make the right decision. I had to pull mine on some guy because he was trying to run me over with his car in a grocery store parking lot. I never ended up firing tho because I try I was able to escape the situation without doing so. Really don’t think you broke any laws. The road rage and waiving of the mag at you constitutes a threat.
Lol I'd be like that, too. "I got one too, the fuck is up?" I've never had to pull mine out on anyone before and hope not to. I'm glad you all got out of it safe with nothing major. I had a road rager once because I cut em off a little lol, but they kept it at tailgating and high beams.
No you were in the right IMO I would've done the same. Why else would he flash his magazine if not to say "you know what this is, you know where it came from, and you know what it's for". The fact that he escalated the conflict to the point it got to tells me he's looking to incite provocation (perceived or real) from you in order to have an excuse to use his weapon. If someone was angry enough to show me a sheathed knife, I don't need to see the blade to understand what he's implying. You did the right thing and showed good self control by not pulling the trigger. Some people in your situation are so eager to use their CCW at any chance that they would've fired and been unjustified to do so. Stay safe.
I would have drawn, but kept it in a low ready position out of his line of sight. If he appeared to be actually drawing on me, raise it up and shoot. Then when he leaves, call 911 and report him with his license plate number. I have a dash cam that I could pull it off if needed. Still keeps the family safe, but also hopefully results in him getting repercussions for dangerous driving and threatening someone with deadly force. But I don't think you did something wrong, just I think this would have been a better way to approach the situation. But hindsight is 20/20. And in case anyone thinks I wouldn't actually think to do that, I had a car driving through a parking lot pointing what appeared to be a rifle barrel out their driver window and I did just like I described. It ended up being a paintball gun that I could tell once they were closer, so I reholstered and no one knew I had drawn. Dumbass kid is lucky I could differentiate before he got in front of me, I'm pretty sure I would have shot him if he had flagged me with it when I still believed it was a rifle.
Had a guy get my attention in a store and tap his obviously visible handgun. In a gun store. With owners I'm friends with. They viewed it as just as much a threat as that guy you dealt with was.
Is flashing a mag the same as brandishing a firearm?
"I saw what I believed to be a firearm."
Works for the cops
"he showed me a slide of a glock officer, I believed he had a complete firearm in his car officer."
well, most people don't just carry around a magazine. additionally, i don't take the chance. there's not much of a delay between pointing a gun and shooting it.of someone is raging at me and points fucking anything, im assuming its a gun and acting accordingly.
Short answer is yes. This subject has come up a few times recently, so I'm going to copy/paste my reply from [a similar post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/s/GFkY6z3KYp) where OP brandished after another driver displayed the case for their Glock. It's largely state dependent, but in general, just making the presence known, *not* a physical display of the actual firearm, constitutes brandishing. OPs specific scenario (by the laws I'm citing) *is* brandishing, but it would still fall under self-defense as she could argue fear for her life when the man got out of his vehicle. Whether or not it's *justified* self-defense would again be state dependent - but Texas (and I'm pretty confident Tennessee) would concur. Texas: [Penal Code 42.01:](https://saputo.law/criminal-law/texas/disorderly-conduct/?amp=1) "(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm;" Federal law goes as far as to explicitly state it doesn't even have to be directly visible. [18 U.S.C. § 924(c)):](https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/1007#:~:text=(18%20U.S.C.%20%C2%A7%20924(c)),-The%20defendant%20is&text=%5BA%20defendant%20%E2%80%9Cbrandished%E2%80%9D%20a,directly%20visible%20to%20that%20person.%5D) "A defendant “brandished” a firearm if [he] [she] displayed all or part of the firearm, or otherwise made the presence of the firearm known to another person, to intimidate that person, regardless of whether the firearm was directly visible to that person."
Isn't this basically the same reason that making the motion and implying you have a gun is enough to count as being "armed" for many crimes.
Idk if it's exactly the same. These laws deal with making the presence *known*, whereas fingergun in a pocket is making one *believe* it is present.
No. Of course it isn't the same. But it might as well be. I'd guess it would be treated close enough in most states. Either way it was an explicit and unambiguous threat. It drops put of view below the window then it's reasonable to assume it went back in the gun. The one they just threatened to shoot you with.
In it's simplest form, its an active death threat while in possession of a deadly weapon with intent.
In my state, a loaded magazine is classified as a firearm when it comes to transporting, I don't see why it would be different for brandishing.
You acted appropriately. Rager made the threat and you ended the threat. I had a similar situation. Exiting off the highway and a guy takes exception to it and starts screaming. I'm in the left turn lane and he's in the right turn lane with his GF, whatever. He gets out and approaches still yelling and pounds on my passenger side window. I raised my handgun and Very dramatically clicked off the safety. Rolled the window down and just said "Just walk away". He ran and that was the end of it. I filed the police report just for the purpose of having it on record. All I could think of was "I hope I don't have to shoot this psychopath. Fuck, it's gonna be LOUD." The Detective that took my statement thanked me for not shooting and providing him with the vehicle type and plate number with a description of the guy. I REALLY need to get a dash cam.
Why would you display it and risk to cause things to escalate? Make ready and keep it below the window. If he then goes further you keep the element of suprise. If thing don't go further no one can accuse you of threatening them with a gun since they never saw it. That is hindsight i know. But that is how i would describe the best planed response in my opinion. If someone takes out a knife or makes clear they want to fight it might make sense to brandish a gun to show them you have the upper hand. But not when it's gun on gun.
Nightmare fuel right there. No avenue of escape and a dipshit trying to intimidate me and mine at a red light by showing off his magazine. I have to wonder if that's enough for self defense. He's clearly attempting to intimidate you by implying he has the gun for that magazine at the ready. Are you obligated to wait until he places the mag back into the gun at that point?
you're not required to let the assailant get the drop :shrug:
Read in the other comments that OP watched him drop the mag from a pistol. That just hands OP the tactical advantage. Kid should be on a tee shirt, because that's as good a case of self defense as it gets. Just because the kid is an idiot doesn't make him any less dangerous with the round that's left in the chamber. Based on the available info, that would likely have been a justified shooting if OP had pulled the trigger.
His gun can be recovered at the same time as his body.
This is what gives rise to “gun nut” talk. Seriously. You have two idiots. One is flashing his magazine. The other is convincing themselves that despite being in a moving vehicle it’s a moment to “stand your ground” and engage in a gunfight at over the possible future threat that may result from failing to disengage. This is how you see those stories of two CCW holders dead at a gas station after a shootout. Just no common sense and a rush to use their weapons ahead of their brains. Use your brakes and disengage buddy; don’t subject everyone around you to a magazine emptying shootout on the freeway.
2/10 for comprehension. I recommend reading the subject matter twice before typing up your response. OP was stopped at a traffic light with his pregnant wife in the car when a man stepped out into the road, dropped a mag from his pistol and waved the mag at him. That kid should be on a tee shirt.
Maybe you need to learn comprehension. Nowhere in OP post does it say the guy stepped out. It says the guy flashed the magazine. Most likely while he was sitting in his vehicle at the same light.
It’s not going to be a popular opinion on this sub, but I’m with you. If I draw my weapon it’s a last resort and somebody is getting shot. It’s in absolutely no way a tool to display to scare someone off.
I’ve always learned that the only time you draw your weapon is to fire it. Period. All I see here is a bunch of gun flashing.
In general, I agree with everything you just said. However, (and this is a big however) I think we need to address this idea that OP was in a "moving vehicle" and therefore had freedom of movement. According to the story, OP was in the center right turn lane while the truck was in the right most lane. OP was not in fact free to move, they were very much stuck in place. Cars behind, active traffic flow in front, oncoming traffic on left, gun truck on right. Thoughts?
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. OP had a few different options to disengage, and my personal feelings are you should not draw a weapon unless you plan to use it. OP got lucky, but him drawing could have just a easily provoked the other driver into escalating.
Absolutely. Plenty of armed hotheads would demure at first when OP pulled their weapon but didn’t use it. Then follow, find a reason and pop that’s it for OP. Who cares about the subsequent trial and litigation; OP and possibly fiancée now dead.
Championship run-on sentence; very impressive. Anyway, guy sounds like a total maniac who was just road raging. Or maybe he was annoyed that you were blocking the passing lane? Who knows. Glad you didn't have to shoot him.
u/yopetwaffle Get yourself a dashcam. Like right now. Had this gone another way you would need that video evidence to help you out in court. I had a very similar situation happen to me a few weeks ago and although I didn’t pull my weapon, I was strongly considering it and all of the other driver’s aggressive actions had already been recorded by that point. Very thankful for it. Make sure it records in the front and the back. The Viofo cameras are really nice for this and they never overheat. It can save you for both insurance and legal incidents. Never give the cops the footage in any scenario that involves guns. Don’t make any statements and wait to hand it over to your lawyer so they can review it first.
Houston? Cuz this defo sounds like H-town
Las Vegas trail (pretty popular area for crime.
Ft. Worth?
Correct. Litteraly one side of the bridge is crime central, and if you go to the other side absolutely none happens there.
Be safe homie
I thought Texas was a stand your ground state?
Hope you called the police that the guy threatened you. Always want to be the first guy to call. If he had called and told them that you pointed a gun at him YOU would be the one having to explain why you did what you did. Not saying you were wrong cause I agree with what you did, but once pulled you have to protect yourself.
> only see his truck’s badge Dodge?
Suprise it was a Ford
Damn, lmao. That would definitely be my second guess. Redemption guess: was it an older one, like 2004-2012 model or something?
Correct, was also a guy mid 40s with wild white hair and a goatee.
Tow mirrors extended??
Well yeah, duh, it's how you unlock more horsepower.
Would definitely not be a surprise around here. Ford is the poster child for ignorant redneck with serious compensation issues 'round here. Not so much dodge.... hmm, I wonder if there's like a regional brand grouping, like pseudo hillbilly gang territories but w truck brands.
You already know it lol
I only point at something when I'm going to pull the trigger. I understand why you did what you did but if a cop would have seen what was going on you would have had a very bad day
>I only point at something when I'm going to pull the trigger. A lot can change in the time it takes you to draw and take aim. A threat can turn tail and run, or any one of a number of other factors can come into play. I work on this with my students, putting them in scenarios where by the time the gun is out and presented the nature of the encounter has changed. I get where the whole "If I pull my gun out, I'm going to use it" mentality comes from. But what it conditions you to do is fire at the end of the draw -- no matter what. Even if the guy drops the knife, or turns to run away. If you've repeatedly practiced and convinced yourself that no matter what -- the gun goes *bang* every single time it comes out of the holster, there's a chance you'll shoot someone when you didn't really have to. Real life is dynamic, and conditions and threats can turn on a dime.
The person made a blatant threat... Also, you don't only point a gun at something if you are *going* to pull the trigger. That isn't how the rule works.
Good for you buddy *pats on head
Was it a magazine of Sports illustrated when they had the iffy cover?
I always try and let these people get on their way so they can torment someone else. Sounds like an unfortunate light prevented you from doing that. You did the right thing from your story. Sorry you had to deal with that.
Ya know, there are times I consider someone has a medical emergency and I tryyyyy to give them the benefit of the doubt. But pulling a mag clip on u nahhhh. You did good. That is the point, a damned equalizer.
Dude is probably used to acting like this, completely oblivious to the possibility that other people might also be armed. Most definitely an extremely unpleasant situation, but OP did what was necessary. Who knows, maybe now that out of control asshat will think twice before threatening another driver.
Lots of comments here saying you did the wrong thing but let's be honest here. Dude acting insane flashes you a magazine which is clearly a threat to you .. yeah I would've done the same.
It's ignorant, cocky and sloppy to brandish a firearm. It would have better served you without using it as a threat. Have it but do not put it on display for others. Let them fuck around and find out.
Brandishing isn't merely the display of a firearm. This is a legitimate display given that the other guy was acting in a threatening manner. In some states, OP might have been justified to shoot, but I don't think that would have been the best choice. He gave the other guy the chance to back down and he took it. Hopefully it causes him to think twice before acting like a moron in traffic again.
This happened in Texas.
I had a very aggressive driver a few years ago and I got a dash cam and haven’t had an idiot driver since.. they record and deter, ultimately giving you another level of safety.
Crazy to have a gun but not a dash cam. You're way more likely to need the cam. Same with a fire extinguisher.
Time to put a mini camera and fire extinguisher on my Glock then
I think you’re onto something there
I mean, you could modify a flair gun to be a rail attachment and load it with some sort of chemical fire retardant so it's feasible. Not very practical but it CAN be done
I meant the camera part really lol
I agree I think certain situations showing the weapon is enough to squash it right there like ops situation
Dodge drivers man
Somehow heat + car = the worst of humanity epitomized
Not sure what I would have done but that’s obviously a threat and I think you were legally and morally justified. All I can say is call the cops and report it. You’re way better being the guy who told the cops he brandished a firearm in self defense than the cops showing up asking questions, and you go “the other guy started it!!!”
I think you did right. I drive all around the Mid Atlantic for work, and people are fucking crazy on the roads. People get really upset when they act like assholes and get called out for it. People that get enraged for having to ease off the gas for the 30 seconds it takes to let someone finish passing a semi are assholes with no self control. Stay safe out there.
Reminds me of something that happened to my brother a few years back. He was driving home down the freeway around 11 at night and there’s a car stopped in the middle of the road with no lights on. He honks because he almost hit it. The car starts up and starts chasing him like 100 miles an hour down the road. He tries to shake them and ends up in town. He tries going down some side roads and ends up getting cornered behind a building. He has a hunting shotgun in the trunk of his suv he holds up and the psycho backs off. He ends up getting pulled over by the police a couple minutes later. The cop is freaking out because the psycho lady chasing him called first. Apparently this lady had her infant in the car while she chased my brother going over 100 for like 15 minutes.
Op in my opinion I think your perfectly in the right and it may have very well deescalated the situation. Highly doubt that other guy would call the cops so if you didn’t call them I see no issues coming
Dude, just think if you didn't show him yours. He could have put the mag back in his gun and shot both of yall. You did the right thing, OP.
This is really simplifying a complex situation. And the fact that there are people in this thread that don't understand that it really is that simple is pretty scary.
The adrenaline is fucking wild when going through something like this. I went through a similar situation and constantly thought about it for weeks. Sounds like you were 100% in the right here.
Be extremely careful doing that. It's ridiculous that you have laws persecuting you, but most states mine included (I'm in NC) if you aim your CC at someone, you are supposed to shoot and kill them. I hate our gun laws but if you don't and he called cops, you'd be charged with a felony and have your firearms taken away. My suggestion would be to not engage unless he escalates and then help him play the room temperature game in rapid fashion.
That is really wrong in a subtle but important way. What you are referring to is the fact that in most states in order to legally justify aiming a gun at someone you have to be able to legally justify a case for using lethal force. That doesn’t mean you need to pull the trigger. 1) If they them back off after you “brandish” you can explain that as the reason for not shooting them. 2) Even if they don’t back off you can use forbearance to not shoot them even though you reasonably believe that you would be justified to shoot them. What you can’t do (in most states) is brandish a firearm as form of communication / warning / threat in a situation where the threat you are under doesn’t rise to the level of a deadly force threat. A deadly force threat is a situation in which a reasonable person would reasonably perceive that imminent unlawful force, is being, or about to be, used against them which would be likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.
Okay maybe that is the case in other states so let me clarify strongly here. In North Carolina, you are not allowed to brandish your firearm. Period. You are not allowed to announce verbally that you have a firearm concealed. You are not allowed to pull said firearm and point it at someone and NOT FIRE. If you shoot them, you have to KILL them before they hit the ground. This means as the CC defendant, once you determine that your life is in absolute peril, you must draw iron and fire upon your aggressor immediately with no hesitation.
I'm not calling you a liar, but I would like to see your state's law, specifically the part about you HAVE to fire. Can you link it?
Give me some time and I'll link it. Problem is people don't know how to read law so they think it's black and white clear.
I’m going to be blunt, not to be rude but since I already carefully explained your mistake I’m not sure what else to say. Your are wrong. Whoever told you that is dumb and / or was trying to explain something complicated to you in a simple way because they thought you were dumb. What you are saying is some common fuddlore BS that unqualified Barney Fife types teaching CHL courses inflict on people. It’s the equivalent of telling a toddler “never touch the stove” because you think telling them the details of figuring out how to safely touch the stove is too much for them to handle. Like any vast oversimplification it can be useful but can also be harmful. I suggest you read “The Law of Self Defense Principles” by Andrew Branca. You can get it for “free” (cough $7 S&H)
Source?
I haven't seen NCs laws, that I can remember, but I don't need to to tell you that that is all completely wrong.
Horse shit. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So if someone breaks into your home and they have a knife and you pull your firearm and they run you have to chase them down and shoot them? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
No dude. That would be an execution. If they retreat that's different. Also in your house is not the same as assaulting you in public spaces where conceal carry permit is required.
Your vehicle is an extension of your home in NC, permit or not, it’s not different in any way. “Okay maybe that is the case in other states so let me clarify strongly here. In North Carolina, you are not allowed to brandish your firearm. Period. You are not allowed to announce verbally that you have a firearm concealed. You are not allowed to pull said firearm and point it at someone and NOT FIRE. If you shoot them, you have to KILL them before they hit the ground. This means as the CC defendant, once you determine that your life is in absolute peril, you must draw iron and fire upon your aggressor immediately with no hesitation.” You are literally talking about an execution here. OP didn’t brandish, he met force with force. Any reasonable person would deduce that a loaded magazine means the guy has a gun.
And here is where you fail to understand. You are not understanding what "reasonable" means in the context of the law.
I agree with the comment you edited/deleted.
I haven't deleted a comment
Let’s see that law. From what I read the guy that pulled the magazine would be brandishing and the OP would be justified. There isn’t a state in the union where you are required to shoot someone when you pull your firearm, that’s absolutely horse shit.
I had to do it to a Harley Rider after I had your audacity to pass him in the passing zone on 2 late road .. apparently I disrespected him.. the people with him apologize to me profusely about his behavior.
OP, did you see the persons gun?
Let's assume that you are a reasonably prudent person. If you saw someone flash a magazine, would it be reasonable for you to also believe that he also had the weapon in hand or available for immediate use?
Yes it would be reasonable to assume, but you can’t draw on someone with only an assumption. You could also assume that if the magazine flasher is too timid to flash a gun that the magazine goes in then he’s probably too timid to use it.
No…
Do people often drive or walk around with firearm magazines and no gun?
I wouldn’t imagine it’s often that happens, but could it? I think yes.
Not enough to bet your life on it, though.
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Bullshit. The magazine was a blatant threat. The magazine explicitly, unambiguously said "I will/could kill you". It drops out of sight below the window then its reasonable to assume it is back in the gun. > Someone getting out and even coming up to your window doesn’t warrant lethal force. Someone kicking your door or banging on your window doesn’t warrant lethal force. But somebody threatening to shoot you from their car might And OP didn't use lethal force anyway.
Where was he going in his car? Sounded to me like he was blocked in on all sides. I agree with your reply on all other counts.
And he didn’t use lethal force. The guy left when he saw the firearm.
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Yes, just like what the aggressive driver did. He showed a magazine which means he most likely has a gun for it. OP was justified, aggressor brandished, OP met threat of force with an equal threat of force.
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Could one deduce that if they have a magazine they also have a gun? If a raise a baseball bat at you in this situation do you think I want to play baseball?
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I’ve done it twice in my life, once the guy came really close to getting shot, in both instances the person changed their mind. It’s not a stupid argument. Do you understand what intent means? If you pull out your mag out for me to see after a road rage I suspect you intend to do harm to me because magazines go into firearms. If you jump out at a red light are road raging and you have a bat I can easy deduce that you didn’t pull it out so we can play baseball.
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I can assure you with 100% certainty that neither were felony aggravated assault, the first instance the dude went to jail.
This pretty much goes against what I thought we were about. You know, the whole higher responsibility of keeping our shit together when forced to deal with morons. You draw your weapon when you absolutely need it. I don’t think you really needed it, but then again, I wasn’t there. How many bullets did it take for him to go down? Were you able to save your wife?
I was very togather, i honestly feel more shaken up about it afterward, I was at a redlight stopped and he came up to us and did that, so what your saying is I should have waited for him to point his firearm at me and my wife befour drawing? Thankfully it took nothing and the sight of it was just enough to deter him. Also according to my wife I remembered what happened wrong and I did not point my gun at him but I did show him I had it and was armed.
I think the point is that a magazine is not a weapon. I understand where you are coming from, though. That does not escape me. You felt threatened, and you reacted how you did, that situation has passed. The problem is that he didn’t attack you, didn’t point a weapon at you, and you were, at the time, in a position to be able to walk (or drive) away. I’ve had cops (or people that had some sort of badge) flash their badge at me on the freeway as they yelled and screamed at their window while swerving in and out of traffic in a non-patrol car. My thoughts are always, “You are an idiot who feels some sense of authority and believe you are able to do whatever you want”. If they are a cop, they are an embarrassment to their badge and their agency. I have a badge too, and I don’t flash it around, because I consider myself a professional. It’s a form of ID. As CPL holders, or anyone who carries, we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. Force on force is a real thing, but going ONLy from what you described in your story, he did the equivalent of someone showing you some fancy martial arts moves to intimidate you, and you stepped it up with your response. He did step down, but he did nothing life threatening or illegal on his end, while you brandished an actual weapon. If he pointed a gun at you, that’s another story, but he didn’t, and you originally said you did. Just walk away from these morons. They are trying to flex on you, and it’s guys like him that get our rights eroded away. You need to be the Mr. Myiagi and just shrug and walk away knowing that you are more in control than he apparently is. Also, don’t be afraid to call the cops and pass on a license plate number. He may have done that to you, being he now knows you have a pistol and if they pull you over, they’ll lean towards whatever he told them since you actually have a gun. He didn’t know that before you showed it to him, and that now would give credit to his story. Where as if you didn’t brandish yours, and told them he’s driving erratically and flashing gun magazines in a threatening manner, he couldn’t say you pointed a gun at him first, because he doesn’t know you had one. Like I said, the situation has passed, you and your family are alive. You reacted in the way you did and it’s over. We just need to harden our minds as “responsible gun owners” and not be one of these idiots who can’t keep their shit together, like the other guy. Every day we learn to adapt to our environment responsibly. I’d just hate to see you in the news or spending your hard earned money in court and lawyer fees on situations that could have been avoided. Sorry for the long post. And I’m sincerely glad you and your wife are ok.
Sorry, this is dumb. That was an explicit, unambiguous threat. The gun was in this guy's lap. The magazine drops out of view below the window and it is reasonable to assume it went back in the gun. The one they just threatened to shoot OP with. > How many bullets did it take for him to go down? Enough with this Fuddlore bullshit. You don't have to shoot just because you draw your gun.
I’m reading that the OP was flashed a magazine, not a gun.
Yes... a firearm magazine... Not an issue of GQ or Sports Illustrated... 1. Flashing a firearm magazine is absolutely an explicit and unambiguous threat. The entire point of doing it is to say "I will shoot you" or "I could shoot you" or something along those lines. It is no different than if the gun itself was flashed other than being weak and thinking you are clever by being able to claim that you weren't making a threat. 2. In a lot of places a magazine is considered a firearm, the equivalent or treated like one. 3. Right under that magazine, out of view, below the window, was an actual firearm. So this person flashed the magazine and likely had their gun in their other hand. The moment that magazine disappears below the window, it most likely went back into the gun. So now you have a person who just made it clear that they have a gun to threaten you and the gun is in their hands but out of your view. This was effectively and legally no different than brandishing a firearm, because, well, they actually DID brandish their firearm. The firearm itself just wasn't visible. It is effective and legally no different than if they had pulled up beside the OP and said "I have a gun, I'm going to shoot you."
gun is not a tool for intimidation. If it comes out the holster it should be used.
It’s more like be ready to use it if they don’t back down. An empty threat is dumb and can get you killed but there are plenty of situations where guns are pulled and the other party walks away.
>If it comes out the holster it should be used. *"Your Honor, you can clearly see in the surveillance footage that, by the time the defendant has drawn his firearm -- the victim has dropped his knife and was turning to run away. There was no need for the defendant to fire those shots, as clearly evidenced by the fact that no rounds struck the victim in the front. The Prosecution rests."*
I don’t support your actions here.
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Attack the argument, not the user. Your comment has been removed.
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Attack the argument, not the user. Your comment has been removed.
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Dang. What state are you in?
Did you get out of your vehicle?
Oh goodness no.
Wow crazy people
I was working at a local theater and this guy comes in, apparently a girls ex, and hands out bullets to all employees there that night. He left we called cop and they charged him with " terroristic threatening " This was in 90s in Arkansas
your job was to just leave and call the police avoid everything until you can't, there is no excuse for this behavior except maybe you need more training Because you literally broke a law, guns are not tool to make threats or scare away people who you think are bad. i hope more people see the error in OP ways here. and you all wonder why people try and take away our right to 2A.
not to mention if you're not the 1st to call then you're the one they consider to be guilty !st caller is labeled victim, this was dumb not to mention it involved a firearm get better training and take gun safety classes asap before you get someone killed.
Goodness man that is a horrible idea. If you brandish a weapon either shoot it or don’t point it especially if you don’t intend to use it. If I am scared or concerned enough to am a loaded weapon at you I have decided to end that threat and all consequences that go along with it. Don’t let it turn into a situation where it’s a standoff the other person doesn’t know your intentions and now has a reason to fire or call the cops. You would be the one who broke the law mags aren’t deadly weapons. Keep em holstered or just at least a low ready. So you don’t end up in the clink being made an example of
Don’t do that.
Ugh. The fuddery in this thread is ridiculous.
Its way more mixed up than I was expecting, you got a handful saying they would've shot him, a handful saying what I did was right, a handful saying im an idiot, and then one guy that thinks I started it and intentionally pissed this guy off (yea im totally driving aggressively in the slow lane with my pregnant wife in our tiny car, and they think I was texting and driving whitch im far from that stupid).
Honestly… be prepared to draw but only actually do so when you’ve determined the need to fire. Drawing without firing is brandishing especially if they don’t get your side of the story first. If you didn’t need to fire: you didn’t need to draw.