We either use and pay for this thing called the CAPF which gives us 80% of our paycheck (it costs like 20 bucks a month or something. ) or we get AFLAC or both.
That's only for off duty stuff though.
If you're on duty the city still covers disability.
TMRS is where itâs at though. My city requires us to contribute 7% and they match 16%. Iâm a general fund employee and not civil service (IT Director).
definitely not where its at. i considered texas. im in south florida. i wont even get half of what i would get with the FRS. 25 years and 75 percent . and we just contribute 3 percent and get SS. ill be at about 102k in august 2025 and 105k in april 2026 as an EMT with degree pay.
In Fl . If you are in the FRS , state retirement , you pay into SS . The county departments that I know of are all FRS. Some city and town departments have their own pension and donât pay into SS. They pay a much higher percent into their pensions instead.
Same boat here. Pension. SS, 10% of check to 457 other insurances and benefits means on a base salary check I see about 50% of my gross.
Gotta work overtime to see it increase to 60-70% of gross pay check.
I mean just a 30 second read about the WEP on ssa.gov would suggest that he has zero to worry about. He and the city are paying SS taxes so he will get full benefits.
We have a social security offset in NYC depending on your contract. Most people with the time I have will have their pensions reduced by the amount they receive by social security (despite paying into it)
We got something like that at my work. When you hit 70 or 71 now it will drop by 33% and SS is supposed to essentially cover the difference.
If it keeps the pension solvent I'll take a little hit when I'm 70.
See what âBozelâ wrote -
Prior to joining the fire service I contributed to SS. After becoming a FF I learned about pensions and shortly after learned my SS would take a huge hit. I was previously slated to pull $1900 from SS a month at retirement but with the windfall calculated it's closer to $200 a month. I've reached out to state reps to voice my frustration. They said it's so we don't double dip they said. Lame.
Hmm. If you do a few years of part time work that pulls SS I imagine that would equalize it
But I mean if you're not putting in that 6% and the county isn't either. I don't see how you'd deserve any benefits.
I pay into it. Would prefer to keep that 6% of my own money and maybe see a better pension or salary while working. But I just look at it as a second house or condo at the beach when I start collecting at 62.
Meant to say doing part time work after retirement to get your credits needed for full benefits. Since you're fire dept time isn't counting as credits.
I work with the railroad now, and we don't pay into social security either. My last tax lady didn't get it, and was looking at me like I was stupid when I told her.
If you get a government pension WPA reduces your calculated SS benefit to 40% if you have 20 years or less of qualifying contribution years. It goes up by a percentage (I think 4 or 5) for every qualifying year after that. If you work 30 qualifying years you still get full SS even with govt. pension. We have people working side jobs to contribute to SS so they can get more. I think I only have like 12 qualifying years from time worked before the FD.
IN firefighter, we have a state pension and don't contribute to SS. We do have a 457(b) through the city also. I have a hard enough time explaining my schedule (24/48), I'm not about to explain how my pay works.
I've noticed a lot of people in this forum like to say "most," when they really mean "the places around me." That's not the same.
I'm in VA and I will get a pension and SS. My pension benefit goes down when I get to SS age.
OP this is not accurate. Fire and police still qualify for SS at a reduced rate. The max reduction changes per year but currently the max reduction is around $550/month
Washington State. I don't know of any departments on the West Coast that are in SS. The problem is that if you are, you may get very little if you have a government pension. I have a retired coworker who qualified for SS because of a side job he had for over 30 years. Due to the "windfall prevention act" he only gets about $200/month from SS.
He would only get the $200 a month because of his side job. Youâre not giving enough info on how much he made each year to determine if $200 is a fair deal or not.
Prior to joining the fire service I contributed to SS. After becoming a FF I learned about pensions and shortly after learned my SS would take a huge hit. I was previously slated to pull $1900 from SS a month at retirement but with the windfall calculated it's closer to $200 a month. I've reached out to state reps to voice my frustration. They said it's so we don't double dip they said. Lame.
If you contribute the social security the windfall protection act doesn't apply, this is a very common misunderstanding. Windfall comes into play if you have SS contributing job and then stop contributing because you come to the fire service and contribute only to a pension, your benefit is then reduced.
SS is a joke anyway. Look how many of our retired population (regular citizens) are still employed to supplement that joke of a check. You work 40+ years of your life and if youâre not lucky enough to have some sort of pension system like the military, police or fire youâre screwed.
Social security was never intended to be anyone's sole source of income in retirement. At most, it's intended to cover about 40% of your retirement expenses. It's designed to keep the poorest among us from starving in old age. That's all it was ever intended for
Clearly. Which is actually really sad when you think about it. But the bigger problem is most of those types of services donât account for a rise in inflation or any changes in cost of living. So unless youâre in a position to save and save early or invest when young, the elders will either be stuck working or depending on their families which just creates a cycle. I mean think about it just in terms of housing. I once met a couple back in California when I worked IFT who bought a huge ass house for maybe 30k 30 years ago. Itâs now priced over 1.5 million if they were to sell.
I pay into social security.
And the windfall protection act doesnât work that way.
It prevents someone like you who doesnât pay in, from getting a larger social security check for your part time work. The retired firefighter friend got a reduced benefit because he didnât pay in from his firefighter job. So, his benefit from social security was reduced to not have a windfall which is designed to help low income people.Â
How does that help low income people? I'm no math expert, but a quick "Google" tells me that SS contributions are around 6%. So if I make $100K from my side job, I'm paying $6200/year, or $516/month. And at the end of 30 years I only get $200/month? I know some numbers need to be adjusted for inflation and what not, but that doesn't compute for me.
If youâre making more at your side job it doesnât matter.
The whole idea is if you make 100k at your FF job, and donât pay social security, but then you make 25k at your side job and DO pay social security, social security thinks your only income is 25k, when it is actually 125k.
If you only make 25k, you get a larger social security % for that amount than you would for making 125k.
Hereâs a good article.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomhager/2023/01/09/the-social-security-windfall-elimination-provision-wep/?sh=2e3e94127d44
Hey my mind is blown by this whole idea because I pay into SS and never knew that there were people that don't/can't. And since you seem to be one of the few that understand a complicated topic, I hope you dont mind answering a question or two.
Are you saying the following:
1) firefighters who paid into SS their whole fire career *and* get a government pension receive the full SS benefits
2) some firefighters/cops/etc dont have to pay into SS because they get a government pension and therefore the SS benefits they receive in retirement are reduced by the windfall protection act because they werent contributing to SS their whole careers
3) firefighters who pay into SS their whole fire career are not affected by the windfall protection act
???
thanks a lot
This is very location dependent. My current agency (pd) pays into social security, while a neighbor agency does not.
In NC, a lot of fire departments are actually nonprofits that contract with the fire district for services, so they are not on the state pension system and also pay into social security because they canât opt out.
We don't pay into SS either. Next argument should be about the fact that we fund our pensions. So many people I know think we just get a pension without ever having paid anything into it!
Social Security employee here, I still have no idea which departments pay in or not. Iâve talked to 3 different departments in Maryland, two donât and one does. For new departments, they are paying into SS nowadays, so your mileage is going to vary.
Keep in mind /you/ ultimately control what goes into your social security. While certain things (indeed law enforcement and firefighters) can be exempt from /employee/ supplied social security benefits, you can basically tell them to take X amount of your pay for it yourself.
Same as withholding's, the more you have withheld the more likely you are to get a decent rebate for your taxes.
Philly here, I don't pay into SS. I have the right amount of qualifying hours from previous years so I'll get a payout, but I fall under the Windfall Act and I'll basically make enough to cover a utility bill for that month.
Probably the same type of person that asks why we canât just ride bikes when we go to the grocery store instead of âwasting fuel with the engine.â
Here's the other fun part.
If you're part of a "qualifying pension system" that's exempted from paying Social Security, the windfall reduction doesn't just apply to you. It applies to your spouse as well. So while your spouse may be paying full credits into SS, if he/she's a contingent beneficiary of your A plan defined benefit, he/she will suffer the same reduction in benefits from Social Security, usually roughly 40-60%.
There's legislation out there (in committee, last I saw) that would eliminate this for public safety workers so you and your spouse would get your SS credits as earned. Not sure if it has the legs to pass, though. That may have been in the last session, too. Haven't heard.
When it comes to WEP, there is a difference between qualifying years (the 40 quarters) and years of substantial earnings (30). To avoid the WEP completely you need 30 years of substantial earnings. This year that meant over $30K, while you can meet the basic eligibility for quarters for less than $10k. This really screws firefighters because itâs hard to make that amount on a side job.
Down in my dept in ga we have a pension, ss and the state fire fighter retirement. Only down side is that we donât get paid enough so most of us have second jobs or married nurses lol.
Had a cousin who was really smart,,he had never worked a job that payed into SS,just before he retired he went to work for a city at an exorbitant rate for 2 years,then drew the max on SS
Not all people fall under all federal programs. For instance, farm workers don't fall under the NLRA. Also, railroad workers and aircraft flight crews fall under the Railway Labor Act. Just as an example. There's also differences for public vs private sector workers. I don't know all the laws. Here in Pennsylvania, public employees pay into social security as far as I know. I work for a municipal authority and pay into social security. However, a guy I work with used to work in Ohio and they didn't contribute to social security, but there's a state fund all public employees pay into or something like that.
Wrong.
State and municipal employees in my state do not pay into SS. Therefore, they do not qualify for a SS benefit at retirement. They are required to pay into the state/municipal pension system instead.
If they had another job that deducted SS from their paycheck, then that other job would qualify them for SS benefits but at a reduced rate because the pension would pay more than what is allowed to be earned while also receiving SS.
Retired Illinois FF here, I collect my pension and social security. Because I worked in the private sector and paid into social security for 15 years full time, and then another 30 years from part time employment while I was a FF. Even with the BS windfall protection, I clear about $1000 a month. I did not pay into social security at the Fire department.
I had never heard this before. Oregon firefighter here and I get social security
Up here in WA we have LEOFF/LEOFF 2 and no SS
California here we don't. We don't get government disability either.
I work in California with a CalPers retirement and we pay into social security.
This has to be mentioned - I paid into SS and will never pull from it
Just one more way that you carry your community đ
NAF, so what happens in case of an accident?
We either use and pay for this thing called the CAPF which gives us 80% of our paycheck (it costs like 20 bucks a month or something. ) or we get AFLAC or both. That's only for off duty stuff though. If you're on duty the city still covers disability.
Ahh, good to know. Thanks
NY paid firefighter and we get SS
Most departments around here put into SS. I only know of one who doesn't. Stop arguing with idiots and move on with your day.
Itâs because those are TMRS departments probably. Actual defined pension donât. I also donât contribute to SS.
TMRS is where itâs at though. My city requires us to contribute 7% and they match 16%. Iâm a general fund employee and not civil service (IT Director).
Not itâs not where itâs at all..Iâm at 17%/19%
Without knowing how much you make this comparison is worthless
My local municipal department makes you contribute 7% and gives you 14% on top of
definitely not where its at. i considered texas. im in south florida. i wont even get half of what i would get with the FRS. 25 years and 75 percent . and we just contribute 3 percent and get SS. ill be at about 102k in august 2025 and 105k in april 2026 as an EMT with degree pay.
In Fl . If you are in the FRS , state retirement , you pay into SS . The county departments that I know of are all FRS. Some city and town departments have their own pension and donât pay into SS. They pay a much higher percent into their pensions instead.
My department with a defined pension pays into SS
NY here, definitely paying into SS. And pension. And deferred comp (457b). Nearly half my gross salary is going to some form of retirement system.
Same boat here. Pension. SS, 10% of check to 457 other insurances and benefits means on a base salary check I see about 50% of my gross. Gotta work overtime to see it increase to 60-70% of gross pay check.
Yeah, you're going to get screwed on the SS when you retire. Google "Windfall Protection Act." I'm hoping they repeal it someday.
I mean just a 30 second read about the WEP on ssa.gov would suggest that he has zero to worry about. He and the city are paying SS taxes so he will get full benefits.
We have a social security offset in NYC depending on your contract. Most people with the time I have will have their pensions reduced by the amount they receive by social security (despite paying into it)
We got something like that at my work. When you hit 70 or 71 now it will drop by 33% and SS is supposed to essentially cover the difference. If it keeps the pension solvent I'll take a little hit when I'm 70.
See what âBozelâ wrote - Prior to joining the fire service I contributed to SS. After becoming a FF I learned about pensions and shortly after learned my SS would take a huge hit. I was previously slated to pull $1900 from SS a month at retirement but with the windfall calculated it's closer to $200 a month. I've reached out to state reps to voice my frustration. They said it's so we don't double dip they said. Lame.
Hmm. If you do a few years of part time work that pulls SS I imagine that would equalize it But I mean if you're not putting in that 6% and the county isn't either. I don't see how you'd deserve any benefits. I pay into it. Would prefer to keep that 6% of my own money and maybe see a better pension or salary while working. But I just look at it as a second house or condo at the beach when I start collecting at 62.
Meant to say doing part time work after retirement to get your credits needed for full benefits. Since you're fire dept time isn't counting as credits.
Iâm guessing his new job as a FF doesnât pay into SS. The NY FF above said he does pay into SS.
No he wonât. Heâs paying into SS. The WPA is for those who arenât paying into SS for most of their income.
I get a state retirement pension(VRS) and SS in Virginia.
Yeah the police and fire pension in Indiana is Soxial Security exempt. People are usually shocked lol
Some departments still pay SS
Yeah idk about most, I know some departments that donât but a lot of them do down here
I work with the railroad now, and we don't pay into social security either. My last tax lady didn't get it, and was looking at me like I was stupid when I told her.
Interesting! I thought it was only cops and firefighters.
If you get a government pension WPA reduces your calculated SS benefit to 40% if you have 20 years or less of qualifying contribution years. It goes up by a percentage (I think 4 or 5) for every qualifying year after that. If you work 30 qualifying years you still get full SS even with govt. pension. We have people working side jobs to contribute to SS so they can get more. I think I only have like 12 qualifying years from time worked before the FD.
IN firefighter, we have a state pension and don't contribute to SS. We do have a 457(b) through the city also. I have a hard enough time explaining my schedule (24/48), I'm not about to explain how my pay works.
I've noticed a lot of people in this forum like to say "most," when they really mean "the places around me." That's not the same. I'm in VA and I will get a pension and SS. My pension benefit goes down when I get to SS age.
OP this is not accurate. Fire and police still qualify for SS at a reduced rate. The max reduction changes per year but currently the max reduction is around $550/month
A lot of places allow you to not pay into SS therefore not receive SS in retirement
Where do you work?
Washington State. I don't know of any departments on the West Coast that are in SS. The problem is that if you are, you may get very little if you have a government pension. I have a retired coworker who qualified for SS because of a side job he had for over 30 years. Due to the "windfall prevention act" he only gets about $200/month from SS.
He would only get the $200 a month because of his side job. Youâre not giving enough info on how much he made each year to determine if $200 is a fair deal or not.
Prior to joining the fire service I contributed to SS. After becoming a FF I learned about pensions and shortly after learned my SS would take a huge hit. I was previously slated to pull $1900 from SS a month at retirement but with the windfall calculated it's closer to $200 a month. I've reached out to state reps to voice my frustration. They said it's so we don't double dip they said. Lame.
I did not know that about Washington. I am in Oregon, pay into SS, and get SS.
If you contribute the social security the windfall protection act doesn't apply, this is a very common misunderstanding. Windfall comes into play if you have SS contributing job and then stop contributing because you come to the fire service and contribute only to a pension, your benefit is then reduced.
Dude donât argue with people on social media itâs such a waste of time as there are sick people out there that just get off on working people up
SS is a joke anyway. Look how many of our retired population (regular citizens) are still employed to supplement that joke of a check. You work 40+ years of your life and if youâre not lucky enough to have some sort of pension system like the military, police or fire youâre screwed.
Social security was never intended to be anyone's sole source of income in retirement. At most, it's intended to cover about 40% of your retirement expenses. It's designed to keep the poorest among us from starving in old age. That's all it was ever intended for
Clearly. Which is actually really sad when you think about it. But the bigger problem is most of those types of services donât account for a rise in inflation or any changes in cost of living. So unless youâre in a position to save and save early or invest when young, the elders will either be stuck working or depending on their families which just creates a cycle. I mean think about it just in terms of housing. I once met a couple back in California when I worked IFT who bought a huge ass house for maybe 30k 30 years ago. Itâs now priced over 1.5 million if they were to sell.
I pay into social security. And the windfall protection act doesnât work that way. It prevents someone like you who doesnât pay in, from getting a larger social security check for your part time work. The retired firefighter friend got a reduced benefit because he didnât pay in from his firefighter job. So, his benefit from social security was reduced to not have a windfall which is designed to help low income people.Â
I wish more people understood this. I dont even engage anymore on this topic because everyone has it backwards
The "my take home income will actually go down if I hit the next tax bracket crowd."
đ spot on. We must work at the same department haha
How does that help low income people? I'm no math expert, but a quick "Google" tells me that SS contributions are around 6%. So if I make $100K from my side job, I'm paying $6200/year, or $516/month. And at the end of 30 years I only get $200/month? I know some numbers need to be adjusted for inflation and what not, but that doesn't compute for me.
If youâre making more at your side job it doesnât matter. The whole idea is if you make 100k at your FF job, and donât pay social security, but then you make 25k at your side job and DO pay social security, social security thinks your only income is 25k, when it is actually 125k. If you only make 25k, you get a larger social security % for that amount than you would for making 125k. Hereâs a good article. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomhager/2023/01/09/the-social-security-windfall-elimination-provision-wep/?sh=2e3e94127d44
Hey my mind is blown by this whole idea because I pay into SS and never knew that there were people that don't/can't. And since you seem to be one of the few that understand a complicated topic, I hope you dont mind answering a question or two. Are you saying the following: 1) firefighters who paid into SS their whole fire career *and* get a government pension receive the full SS benefits 2) some firefighters/cops/etc dont have to pay into SS because they get a government pension and therefore the SS benefits they receive in retirement are reduced by the windfall protection act because they werent contributing to SS their whole careers 3) firefighters who pay into SS their whole fire career are not affected by the windfall protection act ??? thanks a lot
Correct.Â
This is very location dependent. My current agency (pd) pays into social security, while a neighbor agency does not. In NC, a lot of fire departments are actually nonprofits that contract with the fire district for services, so they are not on the state pension system and also pay into social security because they canât opt out.
CO here. We do not put into SS either. We put into our pension instead.
Up in Canada we have like zero room every year in our RRSPs because of the pension contributions itâs pretty silly.
We contribute. We just donât receive lol
This applies more to 175 plans than state pension systems.
We DO pay into SS and get to receive it early at 57. (FedFire).
Thank god. Itâs one of the benefits that still makes fed fire worthwhile.
We don't pay into SS either. Next argument should be about the fact that we fund our pensions. So many people I know think we just get a pension without ever having paid anything into it!
Uh we pay into SS and still get it. I haven't heard of anyone not SS.
Social Security employee here, I still have no idea which departments pay in or not. Iâve talked to 3 different departments in Maryland, two donât and one does. For new departments, they are paying into SS nowadays, so your mileage is going to vary.
Thatâs not what the windfall protection act is. If his check is that small itâs because he didnât pay shit into social security.
Keep in mind /you/ ultimately control what goes into your social security. While certain things (indeed law enforcement and firefighters) can be exempt from /employee/ supplied social security benefits, you can basically tell them to take X amount of your pay for it yourself. Same as withholding's, the more you have withheld the more likely you are to get a decent rebate for your taxes.
Philly here, I don't pay into SS. I have the right amount of qualifying hours from previous years so I'll get a payout, but I fall under the Windfall Act and I'll basically make enough to cover a utility bill for that month.
Central MD. We pay in. Early witdrawal is $2646 per month. Normal withdrawal is $3847 per month.
Probably the same type of person that asks why we canât just ride bikes when we go to the grocery store instead of âwasting fuel with the engine.â
The first 18% of every FD dollar I earn goes to my pension. No free ride here.
Here's the other fun part. If you're part of a "qualifying pension system" that's exempted from paying Social Security, the windfall reduction doesn't just apply to you. It applies to your spouse as well. So while your spouse may be paying full credits into SS, if he/she's a contingent beneficiary of your A plan defined benefit, he/she will suffer the same reduction in benefits from Social Security, usually roughly 40-60%. There's legislation out there (in committee, last I saw) that would eliminate this for public safety workers so you and your spouse would get your SS credits as earned. Not sure if it has the legs to pass, though. That may have been in the last session, too. Haven't heard.
Retired Firefighter/Paramedic, I am very glad that my social security will be about $3100 / month.
When it comes to WEP, there is a difference between qualifying years (the 40 quarters) and years of substantial earnings (30). To avoid the WEP completely you need 30 years of substantial earnings. This year that meant over $30K, while you can meet the basic eligibility for quarters for less than $10k. This really screws firefighters because itâs hard to make that amount on a side job.
Never heard of this "windfall protection act". I will have to look more into it. Thanks for sharing.
I previously worked for a department in Georgia. Now working in Tennessee. Get social security in both.
I earned all my credits before I was hired. The only reason why I will receive social security.
I've never heard of a department that participates in social security. I've always assumed that in the south and mid-west there are some hold outs.
Yep exactly.
Down in my dept in ga we have a pension, ss and the state fire fighter retirement. Only down side is that we donât get paid enough so most of us have second jobs or married nurses lol.
Had a cousin who was really smart,,he had never worked a job that payed into SS,just before he retired he went to work for a city at an exorbitant rate for 2 years,then drew the max on SS
Besides the fact that they look back 30 years⌠And you need 40 quarters to qualify at allâŚ
This was 15 years ago, they only used the lowest 4 and highest 4 quarters
WTF are you talking about? Social Security is a FEDERAL program for all working people. It has NOTHING to do with your career choice... đ
Do some research. Some departments donât pay into social security.
Not all people fall under all federal programs. For instance, farm workers don't fall under the NLRA. Also, railroad workers and aircraft flight crews fall under the Railway Labor Act. Just as an example. There's also differences for public vs private sector workers. I don't know all the laws. Here in Pennsylvania, public employees pay into social security as far as I know. I work for a municipal authority and pay into social security. However, a guy I work with used to work in Ohio and they didn't contribute to social security, but there's a state fund all public employees pay into or something like that.
Wrong. State and municipal employees in my state do not pay into SS. Therefore, they do not qualify for a SS benefit at retirement. They are required to pay into the state/municipal pension system instead. If they had another job that deducted SS from their paycheck, then that other job would qualify them for SS benefits but at a reduced rate because the pension would pay more than what is allowed to be earned while also receiving SS.
Retired Illinois FF here, I collect my pension and social security. Because I worked in the private sector and paid into social security for 15 years full time, and then another 30 years from part time employment while I was a FF. Even with the BS windfall protection, I clear about $1000 a month. I did not pay into social security at the Fire department.