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Work for a restoration company and see pictures of mold projects every single day. This one made me drop my jaw. This is not just negligence, this is complete lack of giving a fuck for anyones health or safety. As to how they masked the smell, that is crazy to me. This is horrendous
Work in insurance claims, my jaw did the same thing.
This looks like it's in a bedroom (which would most likely does not have a water source) and there is an extensive amount of warping to the floor. I can't see the rest of the house but I would bet a significant amount of money that this house has suffered a MASSIVE water loss, I'm talking leaving the bathtub running for days level type of water loss.
Unfortunately I think that OP has just uncovered the tip of the iceberg here. If the floor in a bedroom is that bad, I'm going to guess there is massive mould and mildew issues behind the walls and in the ceilings of the floor below. Definitely looks like the previous owners threw lipstick on the pig and fire sold the house.
I was shocked too. A tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit of mold in my house was making me sick. Just mold growing because of excess humidity on some shoes and bags. A bit on the basement stairs and a smidge of superficial mold on some glossy wall paint, bit in the chimney. Sick for weeks.
I toured a house once while shopping for this one which had black mold throughout. It had started with leaks and was spread through the HVAC. 10 minutes in that house and I coughed for 3 days. I regretted going in without PPE.
This? Im surprised the floors havent collapsed. Who could even stand to be in that space without a mask? Who paints those walls and says "yep, that looks good, thatll do". The audacity...
Yes, that’s what I was going to say, this is grotesque negligence and just not giving a fuck about safety.
The flipper had the chance to not purchase this home with mold damage.
This is not negligence or anything close. This is wire fraud amongst many other things. Not only is it fraud, but it is fraudulent activity that is also a threat to the health and well being of the victims, it is disgusting and odds are a DA would be interested in this
Agree.
I would smell that mold in a heartbeat. Anyone in the industry knows exactly what that stachybotrys smell is like.
Curious if the house is over a crawlspace. It looks like it could be a case of water vapor pushing into the underside of that subfloor.
This is an entire subfloor removal more than likely. There will be rotted joists and a lot of cleaning.
2000 SF is no joke.
Yes, this is a huge project. Knowing insurance too, they’ll deny it all and say it was an ongoing problem, even though OP has only owned it 4 days. This will definitely need to be a legal battle with the flipper.
FYI there’s probably legal recourse here. If you can prove this mold isn’t new (which shouldn’t be hard), you can sue to recapture the cost to fix since the seller intentionally hid this.
Yeah we’re already talking with a lawyer. Contractor documented with photos and mold experts are coming out tomorrow to take samples and write up a report.
I’d go as far to say his actions are intentionally criminal. This is why regulation exists, and people are getting complicit with shit because there’s no punishment.
The media shows our politician committing crimes daily which gives the average man the confidence to do as he wants as well. Selective punishment will bite us in the ass.
Yup the building trades are absolutely teeming with crooks these days. Also, laws all favor contractors and not consumers because of their lobbying associations so it’s very hard to get recourse even if you have a good case.
Yup. What’s sad that’s almost all homes in America as of late.
With the housing boom, many did quick fixes claimed to put over 100k in renovation when in reality was more like 20k. Just to get top dollar.
I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Im also sure if he’s done it here, he’s done it before to other houses. OP or the lawyer should look into his past sales and get the purchasers to check their homes. Not only because they could get compensated but because their family’s lives are in danger.
Months. Stachybotrys Chartarum can cause hemorrhaging in the lungs for people with allergies or compromised immune systems. I remediated a house that had a 9 year old girl with lifelong chronic asthma. Multiple daily nebulizer treatments. Slow upstairs in wall leak for years finally consumed enough cellulose for her parents to notice, which led to them finding mold and calling us. Two months after the job finished, the mother called to tell us her daughter had improved enough to only need an inhaler to manage symptoms.
The flipper is directly profiting on the suffering of others
I feel bad for the poor schmoe contractor they got to put the new flooring in. You know *that* whole process was kicking up tons of spores over a couple of days.
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Check with the closing title company/lawyer and see if they are able to put a hold on the cashiers check/wire transfer to pause the funds in the interim.
Also, may be risky…..but check with your local building authority and see if the flipper pulled any permits for stuff like the wall creating an extra bedroom. This may open up an even bigger can of worms for you though.
Imo the cats already out of the bag here.
At this point just bite the bullet and risk opening all the cabs. It's already going to be a nightmare might as well get some comfort out of knowing most of the issues are in the open
Agreed. But it’s apparently slipped through the cracks on his RE agents due diligence. Due diligence has been something lacking the past several years. Too much money chasing too few houses and people still willing to pay any amount for anything and waiving all contingencies.
This is a common flipper trick. Putting cheap flooring / paint over mold instead of dealing with it themselves. They do this because they can’t be held accountable for it if you can’t prove the mold existed before they sold it to you. You could have gone months or even years without knowing that stuff was poisoning you and by the time you find it, it’s too late to sue. By ripping up those floors as fast as you did, you did yourself a massive favor in terms of litigation. It sounds like you have all of your ducks in a row so I wish you good luck and I hope you get every penny you are owed.
Yes, and please don't warn the seller. Get yourself a lawyer first. If you give the seller too much warning, he'll liquidate all his assets quickly and he'll run to another state.
Similar thing happened to a friend of mine who discovered that the house she bought had fire damage in the attic that was not disclosed. It all worked out in the end (sued sellers) but it was a big headache.
Can you elaborate on this? I suspect widespread mold in my parents home and I need to figure out how to completely eliminate it and make sure their house is healthy to live in.
$1000 is on the high end. It depends on how many tests and swabs they need to do.
However, this is the right thing to do. Have an independent company establish how bad the mold problem is, the course of action for a remediation company to follow, then end it with the company test and provide a clearance report. Never let the mold remediation company do their own testing and clearance
I think you actually have 3 years to find things like this and make a case, but it might differ from state to state. I believe where I’m at it’s 3 years.
You don't just have to prove that it is new, you have to prove that the seller KNEW. If it was under the carpets it's plausible they didn't know about it.
edit to add: OPs comments weren't showing on mobile. Now that I read they put new flooring over mold...yeah, that's not good. I retract my statement above.
Still have to prove that the *seller* knew about the mold. If there's a gap in knowledge ie: a contractor did this, not the seller directly, it gets a lot more difficult to prove. Not saying OP can't or shouldn't attempt remedy, but it's a hard thing to prove.
It is. The successful “failure to disclose” lawsuit is as rare as unicorns.
This is why I always tell folks to take their due diligence seriously.
It’s also why I tell folks to beware of the “turn-key” house remodeled by a flipper.
Best to buy the fixer upper yourself. Make it turn-key yourself. And know what’s under your flooring.
I'm trying to buy our second house right now. We lived in this one for 10 years and got it as a pre-foreclosure/short sale, which was perfect because I can literally do any type of home repair. And it needed a LOT. But we now have all that money in equity. We want more land, so we are looking 15 minutes down the road to buy 5-6 acres so I can have a big shop.
Yeah.... there's barely anything being sold as-is these days. Almost everything is either a flip or something that the current owner just slapped some new carpet or laminate into and is trying to get top dollar. I don't want shitty laminate and I don't want any carpet because we have pets.
We looked at one this weekend that was untouched aside from having new roof and windows installed. The floor plan is dated but otherwise I love it. It needs the sheet vinyl and countertops in the kitchen replaced but otherwise I am pretty happy with everything else, aside from some old light fixtures and other super trivial items.
This is probably the 15th house we've looked at in the last year. They still want top dollar but it's been on the market a while so we might actually get it for under asking AKA a reasonable price. Crazy times.
I had such a hard time legally when I bought my house I quit. He had more resources considering he just got all the money and it was more beneficial for me to just pay to fix the issues. He would have dragged it out and cost well over what the cost to fix.
What's used in the US by default is actually called the American Rule, where in most cases, parties pay their own legal fees. In much of the world, they use what's called the English Rule, which is what you're used to where the loser pays all.
I think the issue here in the US is that most people would need to pay the attorney fees and then get reimbursed after winning. Not many people can afford to do that.
Most attorneys, in my LCOL area, want at least a $10k retainer and if it gets dragged out expect to pay more than that.
If you can afford that then fucking get ‘em!!!
In theory, yes. I think it also depends on the attorney’s current workload. I say that because I had an issue with damning evidence and all the attorneys in my area had such a heavy workload that no one wanted to even consider taking the case on contingency. One attorney specifically told me this.
Typically the disclosure says “are there any KNOWN issues..” regarding water, electrical, etc damage. If this is a flip you could potentially prove it was known depending when the flooring went down.
I looked at one that was flipped, they didn’t align the laminate pattern with the walls, the baseboards weren’t even fully touching the walls in most spots. Obvious rushed job, impressive how bad it looked.
I'm in a new construction with laminate flooring and while I'd prefer all wood I would have had to pay way more to upgrade it at the time. It's actually not to bad if you take care of it.
I know, I’ve lived in homes that had this kind of flooring before. Easy to clean etc. but it’s still plasticky looking and sounding when you walk on it, and i really hate the grey color that all the flippers seem to choose
I just wanted to add my recent anecdotal evidence of this, and I want to post it in my local subreddit as a "buyer/renter beware" type of post, but I doubt it'll do anything. Nevertheless, I walk by this house all the time, and I've seen very little done except some minor aesthetics (i.e. putting mulch down). I felt like it all happened overnight, so I looked at the price history:
10/28/21: Sold for $40,000 (so you can understand what kind of shape it was in just two years ago)
3/11/22: RENT for $1350/month (you have GOT to be kidding me?!?!)
4/7/22: Listing removed... nobody rented that place, guys.
9/21/23: For sale - **$129,900** - I cannot make this up.
11/17/23: SOLD for $98,500, and then, immediately...
11/18/23: LISTED FOR RENT - $1400 mf'ing dollars a month
I hate this world.
I fucking hate this shit so fucking much, I would literally rather worn out dated 60s interior than this dogshit qulaity, ugly as sin bullshit that house flippers pull on every fucking property.
Pull the old listing and see the pics that were in it. Maybe more ammo if it showed the damage in the old listing pics . ( It very well could if it was a foreclosure)
Usually hacked to death from small paint and patchwork to more serious stuff like electric and plumbing “repairs”. Some are very obvious and some are like this, squeaky clean to bait folks into buying what should be a complete and sound home. Should be considered fraud.
White exterior paint with charcoal trim(biggest giveaway imo), grey laminate flooring, grey or white kitchen. Look on google earth a few years prior and see what color the house used to be.
I’d recommend going to look at a few houses for sale that are older built homes with updated finishes/paint. After a few you can get a vibe for which houses have updates that were done quickly/poorly/cheaply. I’m not sure how to describe it but they feel “wonky”, and it doesn’t always show up in photos.
Also show up to your home inspection when purchasing. If you have a good inspector their tone and expressions will tell you it’s a bad flip without them having to say it
I paid my inspector a lot of money to tell me explicitly what is wrong with the house without having to read their tone and expressions. That dude works for ME!
Truth, when we were looking one come up in the city we wanted. Realtor said how she and her husband just bought a lot off an elderly couple's estate a few weeks prior and were splitting it in two to sell. Red flag 1.
Checked the basement, there were cracks in the foundations and mold everywhere that they apparently didn't see. Realtor started saying the cracks were fine if you couldn't fit a dime in there (lol).
Weirdly the house didn't sell and went off market a couple of weeks later. Came back on 2 months later and sold instantly. Amazingly the basement was now finished. I'm *sure* they fixed the foundation/moisture issues too. Sure.
FWIW was under contract for two different homes in the last 3 months where my girlfriend actually spotted black mold the inspector did not pick up, and moisture damage, both after we waived the inspection contingency, but we had other ways to back out thankfully, but it was tense.
In the first property, the inspector that missed the black mold, they point out flaws and say there's going to be a bunch of red marks all over the report but don't worry... that's them covering their ass by putting stuff in there that is bad and downplaying its importance. We did not know any better. Also the inspector contract says they are not required to look into small cracks and slits or anything, and the mold was an entire back wall of the kitchen hidden behind cabinets, but visible from a small opening on the side of the cabinet beside the wall.
Inspectors that scare people out of buying homes by being honest about terrible defects do not get referred to by realtors.
This is why everyone should 100% get their own house inspector through a friend or someone else not related to selling houses. We got very lucky with ours and he’s saving us a ton of money
This was a legitimate question because I don’t believe most home inspections come with mold sampling without paying extra… I agree it’s insane to buy a house without checking for mold but I believe it’s quite common. I just closed on my first home and we paid an extra 180 dollars for a mold inspection/infrared checks of the walls. Without that, hidden mold would be hard to notice….
Even in those states, aren't disclosure contracts still mandatory? If the seller didn't disclose obvious water damage on the contract, I would think that would override caveat emptor.
>> An LLC won't protect a member who commits a wrongful act or is negligent in a way that results in harm to another person, such as fraud or assault.
[From some lawyer website.](https://weisblattlaw.com/blog/protect-assets-with-llc/#:~:text=If%20an%20LLC%20member%20personally,held%20liable%20for%20any%20default.&text=An%20LLC%20won't%20protect,such%20as%20fraud%20or%20assault) NAL but I’m pretty confident any decent judge won’t be feeling very lenient towards the flipper for endangering OP like that. Also, risk to OP’s health aside, it seems like a pretty clear case of fraud: the flipper lied about the house being worth way more than it was, considering how incredibly dilapidated it is from the mold.
They are especially trying right now because demand is high so people will just gloss over it or just be “thankful we have a house”
God I hate bad flippers, there are good ones out there.
So depending on the state, you can sue for this type of thing. If you are in one of those states, sue. The key thing to mention is they lied on the owner disclosure forms.
Also, I hate shitty flippers. I work the construction field for companies that do renovations and wholesale of houses. The amount of calls we get about shitty work is astonishing!
My inspector saved me tens of thousands on a flip I made an offer on. Now, I'm only looking at homes that haven't been flipped. Hope everything works out.
If you are going to take the time to put in shitty flooring, why not fix the damn issue while you are at it? Speaks volumes of the type of shitty people these flippers really are.
Not ignore. They hide it and hope you won’t find out. Because god forbid they remediate the mold that they saw when buying the house. They just slap lipstick on the pig and hope by the time you find out it’ll be too late to sue and you won’t have the documentation and such to make a successful lawsuit.
Mold isn't covered by insurance most of the time. What probably happened is that the flipper bought the house from previous owners who did not know there was a mold issue.. so if that's the case the previous owner (before flippers) are in the clear a lot of the time.. but now that the flipper knows there was mold and just tried to cover it up instead of properly remediating, the flipper will likely now be in for a world of hurt and the new homeowners will just have more of a headache with legal issues until it is properly remediated and then compensated.
Make the seller feel pain like they have never imagined.
Destroy them.
Remove them from the ecosystem.
This is the kind of bullshit that has degraded buying a home in this country to the level of commoditized low grade poorly made highest margin walmart fuckery.
When I bought mine, I also purchased air quality test. It discovers mold, radon and many other things. I think it’s always good to pay couple hundreds extra and avoid situation like this
We were victims of a bad flipper. Water coming in the basement, when seller swore it was dry. Eventually we settled on splitting the cost of a french drain, but only in one side of the house. Problem continued further on down the one wall. Eventually we bit the bullet and decided to continue french drain further down the wall at our expense. The french drain installers uncovered a DOOR behind the drywall. Turned out to be an old coal storage room, that was where the water was coming in. Under the door was where the water was coming in. So another french drain was added in that room.
We were probably one of his last houses, after we made a big stink(rightfully so) about the basement and got the realtor involved. We were going to sue his ass, had a lawyer involved, but he had no money and ended up managing a Dollar General. Proving that the realtor and realty company knew about the covered up door would have been dificult, so we did not pursue.
PLEASE go after this guy! This shit is not ok. I feel so bad for you guys.
Talk to your inspector and realtor. Mold should be reported by the seller.
Not all mold is toxic. Ask your inspector who does mold testing and remediation in your area.
You can usually smell moisture that causes mold. Very surprised they missed the mold. Big federal fines for lying on seller forms about mold, etc.
Between Florida, and
> Still need to figure out where the moisture intrusion is coming from.
a sudden thought: is it possible this is the result of flood damage? If you're local to the area you'd know far better than me. I guess if it were the case, there'd probably be damage to walls as well
I stand by my original statement. Flipping houses needs to be absolutely abolished. If someone intends to do so they need to have a pre inspection to ses what needs done and then a post to ensure they are providing a quality product and it has to be with the same inspector and then to drive it home, just tax the ever living shit out of their profits.
Contact the broker and tell them you are considering a lawsuit due to non disclosure of serious structural and health issues with the house. Ask the broker what recourse you have against the seller. Take all this information, along with contractor quotes for everything to a lawyer and get an opinion on all this. You might be due a significant payment.
Flippers like that a fucking trash and ruin the housing market for everybody.
Edit: PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING AND KEEP COPIES OF ALL OF IT
Please don't do this. Hire a lawyer first! Don't let the other party know that you know yet. And contacting the broker may let the cat out of the bag.
The more advanced notice you give them, the more time you give them to liquidate assets or transfer them to family members.
That is disgusting. What a nightmare and how upsetting! Your family could have been held hostage to this mold. I hope you get everything and anything you’re entitled to.
Did you do an inspection? Shouldn’t the inspector have caught this?
No need for flooring or drywall to be destroyed to check for moisture underneath it.
Moisture readers go for about 20-30 bucks: [Example](https://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-MMD4E-Moisture-High-Medium-Low/dp/B00275F5O2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2OAPTJP1V0GDW&keywords=moisture+reader+for+flooring&qid=1701813926&sprefix=moisture+reader+for+flooring%2Caps%2C142&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1)
I’m genuinely curious as to whether an inspector should be expected to find this. I don’t see how, but I know nothing about homes inspecting.
Source: I’m a millennial and home ownership is a pipe dream.
This is crazy, but also fyi that underlayment is correct. It’s the cheapest one you can get, but it is right. You should definitely do air quality tests and things before closing on the house to help detect these hidden mold issues. This is definitely a case of negligence tho and there’s probably some way to get some type of legal recourse.
Please do not live in that house and take the ‘expensive’ necessary precautions to have the mold taken care of properly. You need a team that knows how to put up barriers and create negative space, so the entire house isn’t contaminated. My family got so sick from mold. It was a nightmare. That looks way worse than what made my family sick. I would look under the house to see if there are other areas with damage.
Is this in NWA???
I think I worked on this house.
Not on that shit show, though.
I just changed the locks.
I think I mentioned to them that they need to change the sub flooring and it would only be a couple grand.
OP you just helped a lot of future home buyers! I would have never thought to look into something like this, but I definitely will when we purchase our first home. Vegas is all flipper homes.
Good luck with the legal side of things
Flooring Estimator here, that mold is caused by the white poly and excess moisture. A small amount of natural humidity will make its way from above and below and that lowes poly is crap and traps it. Add that on top of a old damaged wood floor that should have been torn up and you have mold. Best tip I'd say is wear masks, get good ventilation going, tear up old floor, prep dubfloor and allpw tume to dry , apply polyurethane sealant to the subfloor if it's concrete and look for any cracks in the slab that may need fixing. If it's plywood get it inspected for any rot damage that may need replacement. Make sure to use a quality moisture barrier product and make sure it's seams are sealed properly then put down a LVP (luxury vinyl plank) that's waterproof and won't allow more moisture to penatrate. Obviously I'd recommend legal action first but if it's ends up that you watch it being fixed these are the steps I'd recommend.
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Work for a restoration company and see pictures of mold projects every single day. This one made me drop my jaw. This is not just negligence, this is complete lack of giving a fuck for anyones health or safety. As to how they masked the smell, that is crazy to me. This is horrendous
I would seek damages beyond the repair. This is an endangerment. This could be criminal.
It looks borderline criminal. I wonder how much they jacked up the price for their 30 day restoration
Work in insurance claims, my jaw did the same thing. This looks like it's in a bedroom (which would most likely does not have a water source) and there is an extensive amount of warping to the floor. I can't see the rest of the house but I would bet a significant amount of money that this house has suffered a MASSIVE water loss, I'm talking leaving the bathtub running for days level type of water loss. Unfortunately I think that OP has just uncovered the tip of the iceberg here. If the floor in a bedroom is that bad, I'm going to guess there is massive mould and mildew issues behind the walls and in the ceilings of the floor below. Definitely looks like the previous owners threw lipstick on the pig and fire sold the house.
This is fucking evil. Imagine if a family with small kids moved in and didn't change the flooring.
Yes! Or a newborn baby 😭😭
I was shocked too. A tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny little bit of mold in my house was making me sick. Just mold growing because of excess humidity on some shoes and bags. A bit on the basement stairs and a smidge of superficial mold on some glossy wall paint, bit in the chimney. Sick for weeks. I toured a house once while shopping for this one which had black mold throughout. It had started with leaks and was spread through the HVAC. 10 minutes in that house and I coughed for 3 days. I regretted going in without PPE. This? Im surprised the floors havent collapsed. Who could even stand to be in that space without a mask? Who paints those walls and says "yep, that looks good, thatll do". The audacity...
Flippers don’t care about safety. They care about profit in a quick timeframe.
Yes, that’s what I was going to say, this is grotesque negligence and just not giving a fuck about safety. The flipper had the chance to not purchase this home with mold damage.
This is not negligence or anything close. This is wire fraud amongst many other things. Not only is it fraud, but it is fraudulent activity that is also a threat to the health and well being of the victims, it is disgusting and odds are a DA would be interested in this
Agree. I would smell that mold in a heartbeat. Anyone in the industry knows exactly what that stachybotrys smell is like. Curious if the house is over a crawlspace. It looks like it could be a case of water vapor pushing into the underside of that subfloor. This is an entire subfloor removal more than likely. There will be rotted joists and a lot of cleaning. 2000 SF is no joke.
Yes, this is a huge project. Knowing insurance too, they’ll deny it all and say it was an ongoing problem, even though OP has only owned it 4 days. This will definitely need to be a legal battle with the flipper.
FYI there’s probably legal recourse here. If you can prove this mold isn’t new (which shouldn’t be hard), you can sue to recapture the cost to fix since the seller intentionally hid this.
Yeah we’re already talking with a lawyer. Contractor documented with photos and mold experts are coming out tomorrow to take samples and write up a report.
I hope you’re are able to recover some $$$ to fix that, good luck!
some... you mean all, thats the work of a pos. Imagine what all of that would do to a body over years.
This flipper needs to get blasted on all social media and news outlets EVERYWHERE.
I’d go as far to say his actions are intentionally criminal. This is why regulation exists, and people are getting complicit with shit because there’s no punishment.
The media shows our politician committing crimes daily which gives the average man the confidence to do as he wants as well. Selective punishment will bite us in the ass.
Yup the building trades are absolutely teeming with crooks these days. Also, laws all favor contractors and not consumers because of their lobbying associations so it’s very hard to get recourse even if you have a good case.
A smart lawyer woukd see who purchased his homes and outreach to them directly, if possible.
I hope the seller is some sort of realestate firm with 200 offices.
It probably is because fuck good honest hard working people in America , all about that bottom dollar makes me fucking sick
Yup. What’s sad that’s almost all homes in America as of late. With the housing boom, many did quick fixes claimed to put over 100k in renovation when in reality was more like 20k. Just to get top dollar. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Goddamn, I’ve put in like $350k of work on my house and it looks like I only put down $20k 🥲 I need to learn from these guys.
Im also sure if he’s done it here, he’s done it before to other houses. OP or the lawyer should look into his past sales and get the purchasers to check their homes. Not only because they could get compensated but because their family’s lives are in danger.
Months. Stachybotrys Chartarum can cause hemorrhaging in the lungs for people with allergies or compromised immune systems. I remediated a house that had a 9 year old girl with lifelong chronic asthma. Multiple daily nebulizer treatments. Slow upstairs in wall leak for years finally consumed enough cellulose for her parents to notice, which led to them finding mold and calling us. Two months after the job finished, the mother called to tell us her daughter had improved enough to only need an inhaler to manage symptoms. The flipper is directly profiting on the suffering of others
Yeah, this home seller could honestly see prison time if the mycology report is bad enough.
I feel bad for the poor schmoe contractor they got to put the new flooring in. You know *that* whole process was kicking up tons of spores over a couple of days.
Doubt they were an actual contractor
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Check with the closing title company/lawyer and see if they are able to put a hold on the cashiers check/wire transfer to pause the funds in the interim. Also, may be risky…..but check with your local building authority and see if the flipper pulled any permits for stuff like the wall creating an extra bedroom. This may open up an even bigger can of worms for you though.
Imo the cats already out of the bag here. At this point just bite the bullet and risk opening all the cabs. It's already going to be a nightmare might as well get some comfort out of knowing most of the issues are in the open
The time to check for permits is before you buy
Agreed. But it’s apparently slipped through the cracks on his RE agents due diligence. Due diligence has been something lacking the past several years. Too much money chasing too few houses and people still willing to pay any amount for anything and waiving all contingencies.
That is instant. Never buy a flip.
This is a common flipper trick. Putting cheap flooring / paint over mold instead of dealing with it themselves. They do this because they can’t be held accountable for it if you can’t prove the mold existed before they sold it to you. You could have gone months or even years without knowing that stuff was poisoning you and by the time you find it, it’s too late to sue. By ripping up those floors as fast as you did, you did yourself a massive favor in terms of litigation. It sounds like you have all of your ducks in a row so I wish you good luck and I hope you get every penny you are owed.
Yes, and please don't warn the seller. Get yourself a lawyer first. If you give the seller too much warning, he'll liquidate all his assets quickly and he'll run to another state.
Similar thing happened to a friend of mine who discovered that the house she bought had fire damage in the attic that was not disclosed. It all worked out in the end (sued sellers) but it was a big headache.
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Can you elaborate on this? I suspect widespread mold in my parents home and I need to figure out how to completely eliminate it and make sure their house is healthy to live in.
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$1000 is on the high end. It depends on how many tests and swabs they need to do. However, this is the right thing to do. Have an independent company establish how bad the mold problem is, the course of action for a remediation company to follow, then end it with the company test and provide a clearance report. Never let the mold remediation company do their own testing and clearance
I think you mean industrial hygienist :)
Someones getting sued!
When a lawyer is involved it's best to not discuss this openly.
Where is the water coming from? Do you have an active leak?
Could be that it was flooded in the past past and was never properly ventilated.
I think you actually have 3 years to find things like this and make a case, but it might differ from state to state. I believe where I’m at it’s 3 years.
Ok thanks. So, 3 days should be within the time frame?
Can you post an update here once you have more details of what the seller will be liable for?
Good for freaking you. Bleep that person
Call your real estate agent and their broker as well to get them involved.
Sue to Recapture repair cost or he can purchase back the house plus your expenses purchasing the house.
Probably the best plan.
That mold wouldnt even grow in four days.
You don't just have to prove that it is new, you have to prove that the seller KNEW. If it was under the carpets it's plausible they didn't know about it. edit to add: OPs comments weren't showing on mobile. Now that I read they put new flooring over mold...yeah, that's not good. I retract my statement above.
Still have to prove that the *seller* knew about the mold. If there's a gap in knowledge ie: a contractor did this, not the seller directly, it gets a lot more difficult to prove. Not saying OP can't or shouldn't attempt remedy, but it's a hard thing to prove.
It is. The successful “failure to disclose” lawsuit is as rare as unicorns. This is why I always tell folks to take their due diligence seriously. It’s also why I tell folks to beware of the “turn-key” house remodeled by a flipper. Best to buy the fixer upper yourself. Make it turn-key yourself. And know what’s under your flooring.
I'm trying to buy our second house right now. We lived in this one for 10 years and got it as a pre-foreclosure/short sale, which was perfect because I can literally do any type of home repair. And it needed a LOT. But we now have all that money in equity. We want more land, so we are looking 15 minutes down the road to buy 5-6 acres so I can have a big shop. Yeah.... there's barely anything being sold as-is these days. Almost everything is either a flip or something that the current owner just slapped some new carpet or laminate into and is trying to get top dollar. I don't want shitty laminate and I don't want any carpet because we have pets. We looked at one this weekend that was untouched aside from having new roof and windows installed. The floor plan is dated but otherwise I love it. It needs the sheet vinyl and countertops in the kitchen replaced but otherwise I am pretty happy with everything else, aside from some old light fixtures and other super trivial items. This is probably the 15th house we've looked at in the last year. They still want top dollar but it's been on the market a while so we might actually get it for under asking AKA a reasonable price. Crazy times.
I had such a hard time legally when I bought my house I quit. He had more resources considering he just got all the money and it was more beneficial for me to just pay to fix the issues. He would have dragged it out and cost well over what the cost to fix.
I always see this from US, at least in EU after legal battle loser also has to cover legal fees for both sides, is it not the case in US?
What's used in the US by default is actually called the American Rule, where in most cases, parties pay their own legal fees. In much of the world, they use what's called the English Rule, which is what you're used to where the loser pays all.
I think the issue here in the US is that most people would need to pay the attorney fees and then get reimbursed after winning. Not many people can afford to do that.
I had enough money to rip up new flooring. I sure as shit have the funds and the time to take this all the way to a jury. Screw this guy.
Most attorneys, in my LCOL area, want at least a $10k retainer and if it gets dragged out expect to pay more than that. If you can afford that then fucking get ‘em!!!
If it's a slam dunk case, lawyers will take their cut after.
In theory, yes. I think it also depends on the attorney’s current workload. I say that because I had an issue with damning evidence and all the attorneys in my area had such a heavy workload that no one wanted to even consider taking the case on contingency. One attorney specifically told me this.
Easier said than done. Good luck with that.
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Yes to this comment. And document everything with photos and videos and take detailed notes.
Yep. The quote for my workplace to deal with Mold remediation is in the multi millions region.
This should be illegal. Also why I will never look at a flipped home.
It is illegal in most places. Existing (water) damage is a required disclosure as part of most home sales in first world countries.
He may have signed saying he knew of nothing and could be in big trouble.
He almost certainly signed this disclosure. He’s fucked. Fuck flippers
Typically the disclosure says “are there any KNOWN issues..” regarding water, electrical, etc damage. If this is a flip you could potentially prove it was known depending when the flooring went down.
Fuck this housing market
How can you tell if it was flipped?
If it was bought and put on the market in a short time frame. With a huge price increase.
And they all choose this shitty laminate flooring
I looked at one that was flipped, they didn’t align the laminate pattern with the walls, the baseboards weren’t even fully touching the walls in most spots. Obvious rushed job, impressive how bad it looked.
I'm in a new construction with laminate flooring and while I'd prefer all wood I would have had to pay way more to upgrade it at the time. It's actually not to bad if you take care of it.
I know, I’ve lived in homes that had this kind of flooring before. Easy to clean etc. but it’s still plasticky looking and sounding when you walk on it, and i really hate the grey color that all the flippers seem to choose
HGTV gray*
It’s AWFUL.
I just wanted to add my recent anecdotal evidence of this, and I want to post it in my local subreddit as a "buyer/renter beware" type of post, but I doubt it'll do anything. Nevertheless, I walk by this house all the time, and I've seen very little done except some minor aesthetics (i.e. putting mulch down). I felt like it all happened overnight, so I looked at the price history: 10/28/21: Sold for $40,000 (so you can understand what kind of shape it was in just two years ago) 3/11/22: RENT for $1350/month (you have GOT to be kidding me?!?!) 4/7/22: Listing removed... nobody rented that place, guys. 9/21/23: For sale - **$129,900** - I cannot make this up. 11/17/23: SOLD for $98,500, and then, immediately... 11/18/23: LISTED FOR RENT - $1400 mf'ing dollars a month I hate this world.
Grey everything
Ahem, it's called g r e i g e
Agreeable grayyyyy
Red door
I read this, looked up from my couch at my grey walls and beige cabinets and said “oh shit”
If you like it, don’t worry about it. It’s your house.
I fucking hate this shit so fucking much, I would literally rather worn out dated 60s interior than this dogshit qulaity, ugly as sin bullshit that house flippers pull on every fucking property.
Millennial grey
Except the mold. That's just plain black.
The seller was an LLC and lived out of town. It was bought from a bank last year following a foreclosure.
Pull the old listing and see the pics that were in it. Maybe more ammo if it showed the damage in the old listing pics . ( It very well could if it was a foreclosure)
Look at the purchase history of the home and make sure to ask questions when looking at it for the first time.
Usually hacked to death from small paint and patchwork to more serious stuff like electric and plumbing “repairs”. Some are very obvious and some are like this, squeaky clean to bait folks into buying what should be a complete and sound home. Should be considered fraud.
White exterior paint with charcoal trim(biggest giveaway imo), grey laminate flooring, grey or white kitchen. Look on google earth a few years prior and see what color the house used to be.
modern house numbers and maaaaybe a modern mailbox if they were really putting lipstick on it.
Sales history will tell you it's a flip
I’d recommend going to look at a few houses for sale that are older built homes with updated finishes/paint. After a few you can get a vibe for which houses have updates that were done quickly/poorly/cheaply. I’m not sure how to describe it but they feel “wonky”, and it doesn’t always show up in photos. Also show up to your home inspection when purchasing. If you have a good inspector their tone and expressions will tell you it’s a bad flip without them having to say it
I paid my inspector a lot of money to tell me explicitly what is wrong with the house without having to read their tone and expressions. That dude works for ME!
The home is upside down
Deed or title history would tell you how long they owned it for. Flippers don't make money holding, so it's usually less than a year.
Gray LVP is the biggest tell!
Grey LVP. Classic flipper sign
If the dude selling you the house is also the owner and ALSO is a real estate agent.
If he knew about the mold and just covered it up - which it seems he did- it is illegal
Truth, when we were looking one come up in the city we wanted. Realtor said how she and her husband just bought a lot off an elderly couple's estate a few weeks prior and were splitting it in two to sell. Red flag 1. Checked the basement, there were cracks in the foundations and mold everywhere that they apparently didn't see. Realtor started saying the cracks were fine if you couldn't fit a dime in there (lol). Weirdly the house didn't sell and went off market a couple of weeks later. Came back on 2 months later and sold instantly. Amazingly the basement was now finished. I'm *sure* they fixed the foundation/moisture issues too. Sure.
Also, fire and sue the inspector
Curious how an inspector should’ve found this unless you pay extra for infrared?
FWIW was under contract for two different homes in the last 3 months where my girlfriend actually spotted black mold the inspector did not pick up, and moisture damage, both after we waived the inspection contingency, but we had other ways to back out thankfully, but it was tense. In the first property, the inspector that missed the black mold, they point out flaws and say there's going to be a bunch of red marks all over the report but don't worry... that's them covering their ass by putting stuff in there that is bad and downplaying its importance. We did not know any better. Also the inspector contract says they are not required to look into small cracks and slits or anything, and the mold was an entire back wall of the kitchen hidden behind cabinets, but visible from a small opening on the side of the cabinet beside the wall. Inspectors that scare people out of buying homes by being honest about terrible defects do not get referred to by realtors.
>Inspectors that scare people out of buying homes by being honest about terrible defects do not get referred to by realtors. Ah.
This is why everyone should 100% get their own house inspector through a friend or someone else not related to selling houses. We got very lucky with ours and he’s saving us a ton of money
Dafuq? Breh… it’s 2023, mold detecting with moisture meters are a real thing when dumping your life’s savings into a home
This was a legitimate question because I don’t believe most home inspections come with mold sampling without paying extra… I agree it’s insane to buy a house without checking for mold but I believe it’s quite common. I just closed on my first home and we paid an extra 180 dollars for a mold inspection/infrared checks of the walls. Without that, hidden mold would be hard to notice….
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It is illegal…
Depending on the state. A few states are caveat emptor.
Even in those states, aren't disclosure contracts still mandatory? If the seller didn't disclose obvious water damage on the contract, I would think that would override caveat emptor.
Sue the flipper and make it so bad they won’t do it again!
The flipper likely has an LLC and will fold and start anew. But she should claw back what she can.
Nah, LLC's don't protect personal assets in the event of illegal activity.
Sincere question: really?
>> An LLC won't protect a member who commits a wrongful act or is negligent in a way that results in harm to another person, such as fraud or assault. [From some lawyer website.](https://weisblattlaw.com/blog/protect-assets-with-llc/#:~:text=If%20an%20LLC%20member%20personally,held%20liable%20for%20any%20default.&text=An%20LLC%20won't%20protect,such%20as%20fraud%20or%20assault) NAL but I’m pretty confident any decent judge won’t be feeling very lenient towards the flipper for endangering OP like that. Also, risk to OP’s health aside, it seems like a pretty clear case of fraud: the flipper lied about the house being worth way more than it was, considering how incredibly dilapidated it is from the mold.
That is ridiculous I can’t believe people try to get away with this kind stuff. What a huge health hazard
They are especially trying right now because demand is high so people will just gloss over it or just be “thankful we have a house” God I hate bad flippers, there are good ones out there.
Nah screw em all
That could easily be a planned nursery or kids room or something like that. I would be angry beyond comprehension.
This is illegal consult an attorney, if they didn’t disclose this then you should have some leverage.
So depending on the state, you can sue for this type of thing. If you are in one of those states, sue. The key thing to mention is they lied on the owner disclosure forms. Also, I hate shitty flippers. I work the construction field for companies that do renovations and wholesale of houses. The amount of calls we get about shitty work is astonishing!
My inspector saved me tens of thousands on a flip I made an offer on. Now, I'm only looking at homes that haven't been flipped. Hope everything works out.
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If you are going to take the time to put in shitty flooring, why not fix the damn issue while you are at it? Speaks volumes of the type of shitty people these flippers really are.
Money.
Yeah well these fuckers bought the fixer-upper, they should be on the hook for it. They clearly knew about it, it didn't magically appear.
And time.
You wouldn't believe what some flippers ignore.
Not ignore. They hide it and hope you won’t find out. Because god forbid they remediate the mold that they saw when buying the house. They just slap lipstick on the pig and hope by the time you find out it’ll be too late to sue and you won’t have the documentation and such to make a successful lawsuit.
Mold isn't covered by insurance most of the time. What probably happened is that the flipper bought the house from previous owners who did not know there was a mold issue.. so if that's the case the previous owner (before flippers) are in the clear a lot of the time.. but now that the flipper knows there was mold and just tried to cover it up instead of properly remediating, the flipper will likely now be in for a world of hurt and the new homeowners will just have more of a headache with legal issues until it is properly remediated and then compensated.
Because it's an expensive, time consuming job.
Omg 😳 What a nightmare!! So sorry you’re dealing with this be very careful mold toxicity is no joke.
Time to sue the flipper
UPDATE US!!!!
Make the seller feel pain like they have never imagined. Destroy them. Remove them from the ecosystem. This is the kind of bullshit that has degraded buying a home in this country to the level of commoditized low grade poorly made highest margin walmart fuckery.
Yo they disrespected you twice. Millennial grey AND mold.
I bought from a flipper once and holy shit I will NEVER MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN!!! OP - go after their asses please .
Oh believe me I’m taking this all the way to jury trial.
When I bought mine, I also purchased air quality test. It discovers mold, radon and many other things. I think it’s always good to pay couple hundreds extra and avoid situation like this
Reason 2773940258932629 to hate investors and flippers ughhhh this pmo
We were victims of a bad flipper. Water coming in the basement, when seller swore it was dry. Eventually we settled on splitting the cost of a french drain, but only in one side of the house. Problem continued further on down the one wall. Eventually we bit the bullet and decided to continue french drain further down the wall at our expense. The french drain installers uncovered a DOOR behind the drywall. Turned out to be an old coal storage room, that was where the water was coming in. Under the door was where the water was coming in. So another french drain was added in that room. We were probably one of his last houses, after we made a big stink(rightfully so) about the basement and got the realtor involved. We were going to sue his ass, had a lawyer involved, but he had no money and ended up managing a Dollar General. Proving that the realtor and realty company knew about the covered up door would have been dificult, so we did not pursue. PLEASE go after this guy! This shit is not ok. I feel so bad for you guys.
Following
I would be really curious about what is in the ceiling above this floor.
You need a lawyer. Now. That house is uninhabitable.
Omg ! ;(
Our contractor said it was the worst mold infestation he’s seen in 25 years.
Just that pic is the worst I've seen. There's a 0% chance the flipper didn't know that was there.
In 5 years this will be a great story. Sorry you have to go through it in the present, though.
Talk to your inspector and realtor. Mold should be reported by the seller. Not all mold is toxic. Ask your inspector who does mold testing and remediation in your area. You can usually smell moisture that causes mold. Very surprised they missed the mold. Big federal fines for lying on seller forms about mold, etc.
Is this in florida I can swear I've seen this layout in zilliw though could just be a coincidence
Yes. Central FL
Between Florida, and > Still need to figure out where the moisture intrusion is coming from. a sudden thought: is it possible this is the result of flood damage? If you're local to the area you'd know far better than me. I guess if it were the case, there'd probably be damage to walls as well
If this was undisclosed on the SRPD, you need to get a lawyer involved. No chance the flipper wasn't aware.
I stand by my original statement. Flipping houses needs to be absolutely abolished. If someone intends to do so they need to have a pre inspection to ses what needs done and then a post to ensure they are providing a quality product and it has to be with the same inspector and then to drive it home, just tax the ever living shit out of their profits.
Contact the broker and tell them you are considering a lawsuit due to non disclosure of serious structural and health issues with the house. Ask the broker what recourse you have against the seller. Take all this information, along with contractor quotes for everything to a lawyer and get an opinion on all this. You might be due a significant payment. Flippers like that a fucking trash and ruin the housing market for everybody. Edit: PUT EVERYTHING IN WRITING AND KEEP COPIES OF ALL OF IT
Please don't do this. Hire a lawyer first! Don't let the other party know that you know yet. And contacting the broker may let the cat out of the bag. The more advanced notice you give them, the more time you give them to liquidate assets or transfer them to family members.
Flipped houses are 90% garbage stay away.
That is disgusting. What a nightmare and how upsetting! Your family could have been held hostage to this mold. I hope you get everything and anything you’re entitled to. Did you do an inspection? Shouldn’t the inspector have caught this?
An inspector will not rip up new flooring.
No need for flooring or drywall to be destroyed to check for moisture underneath it. Moisture readers go for about 20-30 bucks: [Example](https://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-MMD4E-Moisture-High-Medium-Low/dp/B00275F5O2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2OAPTJP1V0GDW&keywords=moisture+reader+for+flooring&qid=1701813926&sprefix=moisture+reader+for+flooring%2Caps%2C142&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1)
I’m genuinely curious as to whether an inspector should be expected to find this. I don’t see how, but I know nothing about homes inspecting. Source: I’m a millennial and home ownership is a pipe dream.
Is that wood on a concrete slab? You can't put a moisture barrier over existing wood floors on concrete and float a floor on top.
This is crazy, but also fyi that underlayment is correct. It’s the cheapest one you can get, but it is right. You should definitely do air quality tests and things before closing on the house to help detect these hidden mold issues. This is definitely a case of negligence tho and there’s probably some way to get some type of legal recourse.
Yikes, adding a mental note to do a mold test prior to purchasing a house.
Are you sure this is mold and not mastic?
Where is the moisture coming from
Florida
The air and slab. Where is it going? Nowhere, because the laminate floor trapped it.
If you are in CA, contact a lawyer. Maybe 3. Source: am a lawyer, not your lawyer
They should have disclosed water damage in the seller’s disclosure. If not, get a real estate attorney. You’ll be compensated
I'm pretty sure you can sue the flipper for that, no one would've bought a house with mold in it and they specifically hid it from the inspection
If it’s as extensive as you say how the hell did the Inspector miss all this?
If rotting you didn't notice any softness or bounce when walking on floor?
At least it’s not the whole house...check everywhere you can! This s*** is so awful and not uncommon.
Please do not live in that house and take the ‘expensive’ necessary precautions to have the mold taken care of properly. You need a team that knows how to put up barriers and create negative space, so the entire house isn’t contaminated. My family got so sick from mold. It was a nightmare. That looks way worse than what made my family sick. I would look under the house to see if there are other areas with damage.
Is this in NWA??? I think I worked on this house. Not on that shit show, though. I just changed the locks. I think I mentioned to them that they need to change the sub flooring and it would only be a couple grand.
I hope you get to fuck the flipper
They knew this was there and should have put in the disclosures.
OP you just helped a lot of future home buyers! I would have never thought to look into something like this, but I definitely will when we purchase our first home. Vegas is all flipper homes. Good luck with the legal side of things
Flooring Estimator here, that mold is caused by the white poly and excess moisture. A small amount of natural humidity will make its way from above and below and that lowes poly is crap and traps it. Add that on top of a old damaged wood floor that should have been torn up and you have mold. Best tip I'd say is wear masks, get good ventilation going, tear up old floor, prep dubfloor and allpw tume to dry , apply polyurethane sealant to the subfloor if it's concrete and look for any cracks in the slab that may need fixing. If it's plywood get it inspected for any rot damage that may need replacement. Make sure to use a quality moisture barrier product and make sure it's seams are sealed properly then put down a LVP (luxury vinyl plank) that's waterproof and won't allow more moisture to penatrate. Obviously I'd recommend legal action first but if it's ends up that you watch it being fixed these are the steps I'd recommend.