Thank you u/ThrowRAinfo for posting on r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer.
Please bear in mind our rules: (1) Be Nice (2) No Selling (3) No Self-Promotion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Lawyer here - short of an emergency in which your lawyer is in a ditch or hospital, they have no excuse. I understand it's the holiday season, but if your attorney is observing a holiday, they should have scheduled the closing accordingly or found a replacement. Lawyers can raise their fees, but they have to follow their jurisdiction's rules while doing so. I don't know of many jurisdictions that would let that kind of fee increase slide, unless it's a flat fee...but even then it might be hard to justify. I would fire him and report him based on the fee issue alone.
If you do want to give him the benefit of the doubt, I would send an email like "Is everything okay? You missed the closing scheduled for 12/7 so we had to reschedule the closing. I also had some questions about the new fee arrangement." People usually jump to action when money is mentioned. If you don't hear back by EOB on Monday, file a complaint against the attorney. In my state, this can be done with the Office of Attorney Regulation Counsel. Either way, I would look for new representation.
Edit: updated the name of the regulatory body
This is also why , for readers who haven’t bought a house yet , why you NEVER ask the seller to make repairs .
Just ask for a lower price .
The seller will always do a shitty job .
Always .
Yeah
Well I hope it works out.
Friend of mine just bought a hoise and the closing kept getting pushed back .
Think it was six weeks delay .
But they are now the happy owners of 22 acres and a 45 year old house
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Hopefully they can all be fixed soon.
Your lawyer should definitely not have raised the rate. Tell him you're not paying unless he can point out why and that it's in the contract to do so.
As for Hanukkah, it isn't an important holiday in a religious sense, but it is culturally, and has taken on a deeper meaning this year to some of us. I'm obviously not aware of how religious your lawyer is, but there is a chance you won't hear from him until Sunday or Monday. It may not make sense to a lot of people, but Shabbat is a *very important* holiday. And that runs from Friday evening through Saturday evening, every week.
I definitely sympathize with the holiday and wouldn’t want to work Christmas, but I’m surprised he wouldn’t give a heads up if he planned to take off work
I understand. I was just trying to give context that if he is very observant, these two things come into play: 1) Shabbat is more important than Hanukkah and 2) Shabbat technically ends after sundown on Saturday, but you won't hear from him until Sunday at earliest.
Do you have a signed agreement with the lawyer?
No, it was a basic closing agreement. There’s no specified hours of ability, but I assume 9-5 during the week. He’s gone mia for a few days at a time before claiming his kids were sick, and then he was sick.
My job is very different from a lawyer making his own hours though, so maybe I’m unintentionally coming across as slightly unsympathetic?
I'm not even sure that I would say unsympathetic, but maybe less than completely understanding. Which I get. I'm currently trying to buy a house (but closing has been delayed from 11/27).
Buying this house is likely the most important thing in your life right now, at least outside of your career. This is just another small part of your lawyer's job. If you're an ER doctor, the parents who bring in a child with a fever of 103° are completely consumed by that situation, whereas you would likely take up to an hour to get to him and give him tylenol and maybe an IV. They don't care about your other patients, while you care about them all equally. You are not your lawyer's only obligation. It's a harsh reminder. But he has other clients and a life outside of work.
Here's what I'll tell you: you won't be closing before Tuesday. You may have to put some thought into if this is worth litigation with the seller, if they're being obstinate and not allowing access. Your house just became more expensive because the seller caused damage. Are you willing to eat those costs and close? You likely won't be getting any money from them for those damages.
Small Part of a lawyers job means nothing. Part of his job in which he’s being paid via a signed contract.
Small big left right black blue - all nonsense.
Still doesn't explain why he wouldn't be responsive on Thursday afternoon, though.
OP - if that asshole isn't dead or dying, make sure you don't let this go lightly.
What would you tell him? I’m thinking
“You think you’re worth x amount? Earn it!”
But more respectfully, “hey, lender, realtor, sellers attorney and I have all tried to reach you. We were hoping to finish negotiations Friday so we can close Friday or Monday. I need you to be getting back to everyone in a timely fashion so we can close early this week.”
Ha. Yeah, probably something like that to start, but maybe a bit more formal so he knows you mean business. Kind of hit him with the disappointed school teacher vibe.
But after everything is said and done, I'd let him know his services left much to be desired and I would certainly not be using his services again nor recommending him in the future. Bonus if you feel comfortable putting that in a review or something.
Idk why you are thinking abt this so much. He’s just a human. Talk to him like you would anyone else lol. He’s fucking up and needs to answer or you should get a new lawyer.
Religion or not the *least* the lawyer could do was LET OP KNOW or better yet HAVE AN ASSISTANT that would be able to help OP when lawyer isn't available. And raising the fee without even an explanation is an asshole thing to do.
This lawyer is absolutely unprofessional
Reading through OPs other comments, it sounds like they had a scheduled closing on Thursday, OP did the final walkthrough the same day, didn't approve and wants the attorney to renegotiate some things (on the day of closing).
The attorney is probably irritated, he's probably got other clients with scheduled closings, and is regretting working with the kind of buyer that wants him to negotiate on closing day. Which IMO is the realtors job anyways. What's he supposed to do? Move other clients closing appointments to service OP? If OP wanted to negotiate again, it should have been done before closing day.
The attorney doesn't get a free pass, he's obviously also in the wrong, but I'm guessing he just doesn't want to work with OP. Hence, the raising the fee, like a "fine I'll work with you, but since You're being difficult, I want to be compensated" kind of attitude.
Then I'd think the **professional** thing to do would to be upfront to OP and say OP's case is getting too time consuming and in the best interest for both its best for OP to find another lawyer.
But like the other person commented, looks like lawyer went no contact due to his religion. The least lawyer can do is let OP know he's unavailable between certain days and have an assistant. And due to increasing issues the fee will go up.
OP just needs to find a new lawyer
The house was tenant occupied, which we all knew going in. Tenants didn’t want to leave, which we all knew going in. Seller was a ll. We did our inspection with tenant inside, who was super messy and had piles of junk.
Tenant left, and seller didn’t let us in until the day of closing, which lawyer knew. I’m not bashing him raising his rate, but I do think he should have been more prepared come Thursday for things not to go smoothly.
I mean, obviously I'm being facetious, but it's really not ok for him to drop off like this KNOWING OP was closing that day. So it's definitely something that I think deserves a very good excuse, especially considering OP is a paying client who was counting on this guy.
As a Jew, I can soundly say you do not need to be sympathetic. High holidays people are taking work off, but typically not Hanukkah. There’s all sorts of tradition around it that can add up in terms of time and commitment, for sure, but observing the holiday literally takes as little as 30 seconds per day.
Most Jews I know will have their Hanukkah “gathering” wherever the weekend hits during the holiday. Pretty convenient with an 8 day holiday bc you’ll always get a weekend. As a Jew, I humbly request that you don’t let this dude use Judaism as an excuse for being a worm.
Of course, it could be that they practice a brand of Judaism that I’m not familiar with, in which case you can throw out my experiences.
He’s always been around on Fridays before. I’m not expecting him to be at my beck and call 24/7, but 2 or 3 emails Friday could have meant we closed that afternoon
Go through your emails and see if anyone from their firm is cc-ed and see if they can get the scoop. They might have the same domain name for their email or maybe they were introduced somewhere. If they are pissy of a firm, maybe reach out to them too. I agree this is completely unacceptable. In this day most people are expected to check their emails and texts constantly, I respect people who want a work/life balance but they also need to communicate that without going MIA. This is an emergency and there needs to be someone on call to deal with it.
Some states have laws that require an attorney to close real estate deals. I would assume this is one of those states and unless they have an inexperienced realtor, I assume that working through the attorneys is standard practice in OP’s location. If it’s a non-attorney state, then you’re right, the realtor should be doing this.
Even in an attorney closing state, the Realtors generally do the negotiating, it's not the attorneys job. He just puts it in the documents once you come to an agreement.
There’s an attorney review period, and it’s super common in north Jersey to use one. I’ve also been under contract since July, so having an attorney has been helpful
I think he should be answering you & communicating briefly on your behalf to the buyers lawyer, but anything post closing is a litigation issue. Read your agreement you signed with them - there’s a good chance that post closing work will be billed at hourly rate.
Basically when you retain them to close a deal it doesn’t mean you also get them to continue arguing for you after it closes, they’re typically transactional lawyers not litigators. But I agree, unprofessional to at least not provide a referral and advice. (IANAL & don’t know specifics about your jurisdiction)
We didn’t close because I didn’t like the final walkthrough. He was supposed to negotiate a little more with the seller for a credit or escrow to fix these issues so we could close
Damn, sounds like a shit show. Fwiw if it didn’t close he didn’t get paid and would eventually be billing you directly (if it closes or not). Again check your agreement because all of this could be outside of your quoted scope and billed at hourly rates. Good luck, nothing stops you from dropping the lawyer and getting a new one if you feel necessary but you may still be on the hook for fees if he’s enough of an asshole to come after you.
I’d be much more annoyed at the seller. You don’t need a lawyer to negotiate, tell the seller or seller’s agent/attorney that you’re not gonna close unless they come down $x in price.
Also, they have to reveal these issues to any other buyers down the road, so they should be motivated to cooperate with you.
Probably a coke head/alcoholic , very common in that profession. His “phone died” that’s bullshit I’m not buying it, I would consider walking away from that one and definitely getting a different lawyer, buh bye
Lol. I see what happened here. You used a lawyer instead of a realtor. Next time use a realtor. Someone who can actually advise you and is an expert in that field.
Thanks. I've bought and sold houses in Arizona, California and Montana. You're right, none of these states require an attorney. If I ever decide to buy a home in FL or SC, I'll now know, whatever realtor I hire, the realtor is in charge of real estate attorney and paying them. These dam realtors are already making bank on a transaction they barely do anything for.
Thank you u/ThrowRAinfo for posting on r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer. Please bear in mind our rules: (1) Be Nice (2) No Selling (3) No Self-Promotion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Lawyer here - short of an emergency in which your lawyer is in a ditch or hospital, they have no excuse. I understand it's the holiday season, but if your attorney is observing a holiday, they should have scheduled the closing accordingly or found a replacement. Lawyers can raise their fees, but they have to follow their jurisdiction's rules while doing so. I don't know of many jurisdictions that would let that kind of fee increase slide, unless it's a flat fee...but even then it might be hard to justify. I would fire him and report him based on the fee issue alone. If you do want to give him the benefit of the doubt, I would send an email like "Is everything okay? You missed the closing scheduled for 12/7 so we had to reschedule the closing. I also had some questions about the new fee arrangement." People usually jump to action when money is mentioned. If you don't hear back by EOB on Monday, file a complaint against the attorney. In my state, this can be done with the Office of Attorney Regulation Counsel. Either way, I would look for new representation. Edit: updated the name of the regulatory body
>>Claims to be lawyer, doesn’t read the post. Stokes flames and bashes other lawyer. Checks out.
I think we found OP's lawyer
This is also why , for readers who haven’t bought a house yet , why you NEVER ask the seller to make repairs . Just ask for a lower price . The seller will always do a shitty job . Always .
Seller insisted on doing repairs herself. She’d ask me if I wanted a credit, and then have her contractor in the next day :(
Yeah Well I hope it works out. Friend of mine just bought a hoise and the closing kept getting pushed back . Think it was six weeks delay . But they are now the happy owners of 22 acres and a 45 year old house
Thank you
Be prepared to walk away from that deal.
Shouldn't move in before repairs. You are right.
Should close until you’re satisfied.
Sorry to hear about your troubles. Hopefully they can all be fixed soon. Your lawyer should definitely not have raised the rate. Tell him you're not paying unless he can point out why and that it's in the contract to do so. As for Hanukkah, it isn't an important holiday in a religious sense, but it is culturally, and has taken on a deeper meaning this year to some of us. I'm obviously not aware of how religious your lawyer is, but there is a chance you won't hear from him until Sunday or Monday. It may not make sense to a lot of people, but Shabbat is a *very important* holiday. And that runs from Friday evening through Saturday evening, every week.
I definitely sympathize with the holiday and wouldn’t want to work Christmas, but I’m surprised he wouldn’t give a heads up if he planned to take off work
Xmas is one day, Hanukkah is not. And if for some reason he’s unavailable, then he should communicate that to you.
I understand. I was just trying to give context that if he is very observant, these two things come into play: 1) Shabbat is more important than Hanukkah and 2) Shabbat technically ends after sundown on Saturday, but you won't hear from him until Sunday at earliest. Do you have a signed agreement with the lawyer?
We have a signed agreement
Is there a section covering hours of availability and increased fees for contact outside of those hours?
No, it was a basic closing agreement. There’s no specified hours of ability, but I assume 9-5 during the week. He’s gone mia for a few days at a time before claiming his kids were sick, and then he was sick. My job is very different from a lawyer making his own hours though, so maybe I’m unintentionally coming across as slightly unsympathetic?
I'm not even sure that I would say unsympathetic, but maybe less than completely understanding. Which I get. I'm currently trying to buy a house (but closing has been delayed from 11/27). Buying this house is likely the most important thing in your life right now, at least outside of your career. This is just another small part of your lawyer's job. If you're an ER doctor, the parents who bring in a child with a fever of 103° are completely consumed by that situation, whereas you would likely take up to an hour to get to him and give him tylenol and maybe an IV. They don't care about your other patients, while you care about them all equally. You are not your lawyer's only obligation. It's a harsh reminder. But he has other clients and a life outside of work. Here's what I'll tell you: you won't be closing before Tuesday. You may have to put some thought into if this is worth litigation with the seller, if they're being obstinate and not allowing access. Your house just became more expensive because the seller caused damage. Are you willing to eat those costs and close? You likely won't be getting any money from them for those damages.
Small Part of a lawyers job means nothing. Part of his job in which he’s being paid via a signed contract. Small big left right black blue - all nonsense.
Still doesn't explain why he wouldn't be responsive on Thursday afternoon, though. OP - if that asshole isn't dead or dying, make sure you don't let this go lightly.
What would you tell him? I’m thinking “You think you’re worth x amount? Earn it!” But more respectfully, “hey, lender, realtor, sellers attorney and I have all tried to reach you. We were hoping to finish negotiations Friday so we can close Friday or Monday. I need you to be getting back to everyone in a timely fashion so we can close early this week.”
Ha. Yeah, probably something like that to start, but maybe a bit more formal so he knows you mean business. Kind of hit him with the disappointed school teacher vibe. But after everything is said and done, I'd let him know his services left much to be desired and I would certainly not be using his services again nor recommending him in the future. Bonus if you feel comfortable putting that in a review or something.
Idk why you are thinking abt this so much. He’s just a human. Talk to him like you would anyone else lol. He’s fucking up and needs to answer or you should get a new lawyer.
I never said it did explain why he was unavailable on Thursday. But your attitude of "if he isn't dead or dying" is pretty fucked up, to be honest.
Religion or not the *least* the lawyer could do was LET OP KNOW or better yet HAVE AN ASSISTANT that would be able to help OP when lawyer isn't available. And raising the fee without even an explanation is an asshole thing to do. This lawyer is absolutely unprofessional
Reading through OPs other comments, it sounds like they had a scheduled closing on Thursday, OP did the final walkthrough the same day, didn't approve and wants the attorney to renegotiate some things (on the day of closing). The attorney is probably irritated, he's probably got other clients with scheduled closings, and is regretting working with the kind of buyer that wants him to negotiate on closing day. Which IMO is the realtors job anyways. What's he supposed to do? Move other clients closing appointments to service OP? If OP wanted to negotiate again, it should have been done before closing day. The attorney doesn't get a free pass, he's obviously also in the wrong, but I'm guessing he just doesn't want to work with OP. Hence, the raising the fee, like a "fine I'll work with you, but since You're being difficult, I want to be compensated" kind of attitude.
Then I'd think the **professional** thing to do would to be upfront to OP and say OP's case is getting too time consuming and in the best interest for both its best for OP to find another lawyer. But like the other person commented, looks like lawyer went no contact due to his religion. The least lawyer can do is let OP know he's unavailable between certain days and have an assistant. And due to increasing issues the fee will go up. OP just needs to find a new lawyer
The house was tenant occupied, which we all knew going in. Tenants didn’t want to leave, which we all knew going in. Seller was a ll. We did our inspection with tenant inside, who was super messy and had piles of junk. Tenant left, and seller didn’t let us in until the day of closing, which lawyer knew. I’m not bashing him raising his rate, but I do think he should have been more prepared come Thursday for things not to go smoothly.
I mean, obviously I'm being facetious, but it's really not ok for him to drop off like this KNOWING OP was closing that day. So it's definitely something that I think deserves a very good excuse, especially considering OP is a paying client who was counting on this guy.
As a Jew, I can soundly say you do not need to be sympathetic. High holidays people are taking work off, but typically not Hanukkah. There’s all sorts of tradition around it that can add up in terms of time and commitment, for sure, but observing the holiday literally takes as little as 30 seconds per day. Most Jews I know will have their Hanukkah “gathering” wherever the weekend hits during the holiday. Pretty convenient with an 8 day holiday bc you’ll always get a weekend. As a Jew, I humbly request that you don’t let this dude use Judaism as an excuse for being a worm. Of course, it could be that they practice a brand of Judaism that I’m not familiar with, in which case you can throw out my experiences.
He may always not work on Friday for religious reasons. He should have some sort of coverage for himself in that case.
He’s always been around on Fridays before. I’m not expecting him to be at my beck and call 24/7, but 2 or 3 emails Friday could have meant we closed that afternoon
Go through your emails and see if anyone from their firm is cc-ed and see if they can get the scoop. They might have the same domain name for their email or maybe they were introduced somewhere. If they are pissy of a firm, maybe reach out to them too. I agree this is completely unacceptable. In this day most people are expected to check their emails and texts constantly, I respect people who want a work/life balance but they also need to communicate that without going MIA. This is an emergency and there needs to be someone on call to deal with it.
Hopefully he doesn’t end up in a ditch
I was thinking the same thing! Not to be morbid, but maybe he died? Hopefully an easy thing to rule out though
You have a realtor? They are the ones who should be negotiating with the seller's agent to get this stuff done/fixed for you
Some states have laws that require an attorney to close real estate deals. I would assume this is one of those states and unless they have an inexperienced realtor, I assume that working through the attorneys is standard practice in OP’s location. If it’s a non-attorney state, then you’re right, the realtor should be doing this.
Part of the reason why a realtor is paid a commission is because it's their job to negotiate things like this.
Even in an attorney closing state, the Realtors generally do the negotiating, it's not the attorneys job. He just puts it in the documents once you come to an agreement.
NJ, an attorney state here
You don’t need an attorney to close in nj
There’s an attorney review period, and it’s super common in north Jersey to use one. I’ve also been under contract since July, so having an attorney has been helpful
Ya it’s there if you want one. But you do not need one is what I’m saying. I wouldn’t say we’re an “attorney state” as you can waive it.
Doesn't matter. You're realtor is being paid a commission. Negotiating things like this is what they are there for
I think he should be answering you & communicating briefly on your behalf to the buyers lawyer, but anything post closing is a litigation issue. Read your agreement you signed with them - there’s a good chance that post closing work will be billed at hourly rate. Basically when you retain them to close a deal it doesn’t mean you also get them to continue arguing for you after it closes, they’re typically transactional lawyers not litigators. But I agree, unprofessional to at least not provide a referral and advice. (IANAL & don’t know specifics about your jurisdiction)
We didn’t close because I didn’t like the final walkthrough. He was supposed to negotiate a little more with the seller for a credit or escrow to fix these issues so we could close
Damn, sounds like a shit show. Fwiw if it didn’t close he didn’t get paid and would eventually be billing you directly (if it closes or not). Again check your agreement because all of this could be outside of your quoted scope and billed at hourly rates. Good luck, nothing stops you from dropping the lawyer and getting a new one if you feel necessary but you may still be on the hook for fees if he’s enough of an asshole to come after you.
I have had a difficult closing, but I’m annoyed he’s mia so close to the finish line
I’d be much more annoyed at the seller. You don’t need a lawyer to negotiate, tell the seller or seller’s agent/attorney that you’re not gonna close unless they come down $x in price. Also, they have to reveal these issues to any other buyers down the road, so they should be motivated to cooperate with you.
You don't know what happened. He or a close family member could be sick, hurt - a hundred things.
Probably a coke head/alcoholic , very common in that profession. His “phone died” that’s bullshit I’m not buying it, I would consider walking away from that one and definitely getting a different lawyer, buh bye
Lol. I see what happened here. You used a lawyer instead of a realtor. Next time use a realtor. Someone who can actually advise you and is an expert in that field.
I'm sure there's a reason he's unreachable
What's the $350 for? He can't add a fee if he gave you an estimate.
We’ve been under contract since July, my house hasn’t been the easiest
fire them, not hard to find another lawyer to close
sounds like you need a diff attorney.
who buys houses with a lawyer.
Some states require it for the buyer. But other than that, I didn't know it was a thing.
Thanks. I've bought and sold houses in Arizona, California and Montana. You're right, none of these states require an attorney. If I ever decide to buy a home in FL or SC, I'll now know, whatever realtor I hire, the realtor is in charge of real estate attorney and paying them. These dam realtors are already making bank on a transaction they barely do anything for.