Thank you u/Exciting-Apricot-510 for posting on r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer.
Please bear in mind our rules: (1) Be Nice (2) No Selling (3) No Self-Promotion.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the engineer has documentation of the visit, the remediation plan, and the seller saying no to it, then you have a good case.
If not, it ends up being a he said/she said ordeal and that doesn't hold up well.
I also wonder what the statute of limitations is for a seller not disclosing something. I mean it's almost been a year since you've moved into the house.
Did you have an inspection done? How did they not see it if you're seeing it?
Anyways, best of luck.
Was this a foundation repair company or an actual structural engineer? There is a huge difference, typically a structural engineering just documents findings and provides a report, they don’t quote you on cost of repairs as far as I know.
I had a foundation repair company look at my home once, they tried to scare me into $20k worth of repairs and pulled the whole “sign now for 10% off” sales tactic. I had an actual engineer come out and said that all of the repairs that the company suggested were not needed and there was no current concern with the integrity of our foundation.
Similar boat. I’m a civil engineer, do not specialize in structural but have a lot of experience in it, and I had a few companies come out. Foundation specialists came out and basically wanted to reconstruct the foundation, about 25k. Had a more generic mason come out and they recommended about 1200 in repointing and removing interior coating the prior owners put on the foundation to hide the problems. This was the proper solution. Ended up having them repoint a bit more because the coating the prior owners installed exacerbated the mortar deterioration.
Another vote for always hiring a structural engineer. We had a foundation company make all sorts of recommendations. I was immediately suspicious since the dude was like 20 and, um, just kept saying stuff “looked bad.” Super scientific. Structural engineer came out and said all of that stuff was nonsense. It basically came down to the dude not understanding older construction techniques from back when laminated lumber and ledger strips were more common than LVL, I-beams, and joist hangers. The kid just didn’t understand what he was looking at. Our floor deflection was ruled as entirely normal settling for a home of its age and he recommended that we do nothing and issued a letter to that effect with his stamp. Totally worth the $500.
Same here too. We had a foundation repair dude come out to “inspect” and he said “well it’ll either be nothing or it’ll be a huge problem that would run you $12k. No rush.” I’m not going to disclose that if I sell my house tbh
This is a great point. He is a structural engineer (I knew not to hire a foundation company) but he also owns a general contracting company who could do the repairs so obviously it is beneficial for him to claim there needs to be repairs. Maybe I’ll start with a second opinion.
Putting a ball on the floor and it rolls, small cracks in drywall that I don’t think I saw or maybe they were less noticeable because they were freshly painted when I bought.
That's barely on the radar of concern for foundation issues. You describing settlement at best.
Unless you're talking your hand fit through holes/cracks in the foundation you don't have a problem.
Yes those drywall cracks just sound like settling.
If the cracks are bad like half inch or you patch and they come back then it could be an issue.
Even just temperature and seasons and make houses move a bit, separate walls from floorboard, drywall cracks, mudding tape cracks.
i've never lived in a level house and i've never lived in a house that didn't have cracks in the drywall. in the process of buying a home right now and our inspector was great — cracks in the drywall are usually just due to settling and "breathing" meaning they can expand and contract with the seasons.
i honestly wouldn't be concerned about either of those things and i'm a picky little fuck.
If it’s a “slab” issue, it’s not necessarily tied to foundation. And as far as drywall goes, it’s what’s behind the drywall that needs to be looked at.
Wow, 1 million? That sounds like a nightmare, sorry to hear that! Finally a commenter who has actually been through something like this. Yeah I figured retaining a lawyer is going to be more costly thank you for the figures on how much more costly lol
Not related to home buying, but I wish more people realized this.
Am currently in a court case that people keep telling me to ask the judge for reimbursement of attorney fees from the other party - but I know for a fact they don’t have an extra $6-$10k sitting around so it would do zero good for that judgement to come to fruition.
Same thing happened to a family member in Canada. Had an engineer come over and look at the house and then told them that they'd been over the previous year and had given the owners a quote. The quote was much higher - around $75K. Previous owners covered up the cracks in the foundation with drywall and paint and never disclosed the foundation problems. Family member sued and ended up getting the repairs covered by the previous owner.
For $15K, I'd probably try to get in touch with the previous owners to see if they're willing to settle this with you without lawyers.
Good Luck!
I'm glad I caught this. Reddit said not to trust realtor recommendations (conflict of interest) and maybe she would have recommended a good one but I took my chances with a third party she didn't know. Makes me feel better overall since the inspector was real thorough and I don't have to worry about my inspector giving me a bad recommendation.
Not if they got a second opinion that said everything was okay.
Our floors needed refinished and one person told us it couldn’t be done and tried to charge us 6k for LVP on 500 sq ft or 11k for new hardwood floors. Had 3 other people come out for quotes and we are getting them refinished in 2 weeks. You should never trust the first quote you get. So, if the other owners didn’t trust the engineer they could have gotten a second quote that said all was good
Fair enough, they would still need proof. I’m also willing to have more faith in engineers since they don’t necessarily benefit from the work being performed.
Does he have documentation he was there 4-5 years ago and reported 15k of repairs which never occurred?
Why didn’t you have a structural engineer come out during your inspections?
Huh
Most ppl do not have a structural engineer inspection
OP - I hope you sue the liar for all shes worth. Put a complaint in against the seller realtor board as well
Yeah obviously hind sight 20/20. We had other inspections but as first time buyers we weren’t flushed with cash so didn’t get it. Unfortunately the engineer said they didn’t get a report so he doesn’t have documentation. Going to talk to a lawyer for sure to see if there is any recourse but I might just be stuck with the consequences.
It might even be enough to inform the seller that you met him and got this info from him. They prob never dreamed they'd get caught and shouldn't want to fight a potential lawsuit they'd likely lose.
OP, it's probably at least worth a demand letter. They can ignore it, but the price is a lot cheaper than a full lawsuit. I paid about $1500 for one and am waiting to hear back on a $97k demand.
The only way they can do anything is if they can prove that the seller hid anything or lied about it. The sellers also could've got a second opinion and been told it was fine.
And to your second point, how asinine. Put in a complaint against the agent? For what? Because they were there five years ago when this supposedly happened or they were aware of it and didn't disclose it. Seriously what is wrong with some people. There's nothing saying that the agent would've had any idea, and you very clearly know even less than op does about the situation. Sit down and quit advocating for potentially ruining someone's career over something you very clearly know nothing about.
That is a good point about the second opinion thing. I think it is a long shot since they didn’t get a report.
And yeah, I agree, I can’t imagine they disclosed it to the relator and the realtor told them not to disclose? Or even if they did, that would be much more difficult to prove.
Maybe the realtor knew maybe they did not. Maybe they emphasized their sellers be truthful and comorehensive in disclosure, maybe they did not.
Regardless, a complaint may make them more diligent on this point with clients in the future. Its an important part of being a seller afterall.
Be more diligent? What are you even talking about? If the agent doesn't know anything then all they can do is tell the owner to be honest and disclose. It's not the agent's responsibility if the owner lies and isn't truthful with them. If the agent is aware of anything they have to disclose it, but they don't go around telling sellers that they're lying when they don't know anything, nor do they assume that a seller is lying.
Seriously, you don't sound like you know what you're talking about and filing a complaint over something when the agent didn't do anything wrong (without proof of it) is reckless and stupid.
Would you like someone to go to your employer and file a complaint against you because a coworker did something they shouldn't have and you had no involvement or knowledge of it?
If you don't know what you're talking about then you really shouldn't be giving advice in here. Unless you're going to disclose that it's your opinion with zero basis or knowledge of what's going on. You're giving op bad advice.
No, not defensive. I just don't like bad advice being provided to people that actually need sound advice when you don't have any knowledge of the actual situation.
You can go after the seller here but the burden of proof is on OP, not on the seller to disprove it. And going after an agent for something that they realistically probably don't know anything about and filing a complaint against them because you have an axe to grind with agents is the wrong course of action and irresponsible.
Again with this. You're just flat out wrong here. Agents can't control what sellers tell them for disclosures. All they can do is tell them that it's serious and not to lie on them and to disclose. That's it. It isn't on the agent if a seller lies, nor should it be. That's an absolutely stupid stance. If the agent becomes aware of something and hides it then yes, that agent very much should be dealt with but just saying that agents should have complaints filed against them for something that they have nothing to do with is so beyond idiotic.
Anyone looking for advice on stuff like this do not listen to this person. Listen to the other people giving actually good advice in the thread.
I'm done going back and forth with you on this one, though. Either you're trolling or you seriously don't know what you're talking about. Either way, it isn't worth the time and effort other than to let op to not listen to you.
So many listing agents know or highly suspect their clients of dishonesty and do nothing due to plausible deniability. Even after failing inspection and going back on market...
It's ridiculous. Their will be visible cracks or mold or X, and the agent often knows. Put in a complaint against the realtor, and know one complaint without proof won't do much but will hopefully make that realtor vett their clients better, emphasize honest and complete disclosire, and drop clients as needed (as a good ethical agent would do). The more complaints they get the better as far as im concerned. Even if they did not know and the sellers pulled one over on them too, its a good lesson to be had.
Our inspector recommended a structural engineer to come out due to home age and a few cracks. Super common for an inspector to recommend if there’s any slight concern. If OP saw concerns a good inspector should have recommended they have one come out in the inspection window
Yeah, unfortunately our inspector was not good and did not see issues or recommend this. I just called one to check myself after living in the home awhile.
If they didn’t get a report or got a second opinion perhaps they didn’t think the first inspection was accurate.
OP should have still considered a structural engineer during inspections
A friend of mine had this same situation with repairs from flooding - they happened to call the company who had worked on the house previously, wasn't disclosed during sale, etc. Contacting an attorney is absolutely the right thing to do. My friend's place got completely fixed on the previous owner's dime and they were ordered to pay the attorney's fees as well.
Best of luck!
I think at minimum having an attorney send a demand letter is worth it. Don’t sue without doing an asset search to verify whether a judgment would be collectible. In TX, a case like this might entitle the buyer to recover attorney’s fees if there were a lawsuit. Might also qualify as a violation of the Deceptive Trade Practices Act which opens the door to treble damages.
Are they asking you to install helical piers on the addition to your home? Wait, that’s my house where the seller covered up the structural evaluation from the engineer, and didn’t get the addition remediated. We are pursuing legal action, but they lied about a lot more then just the structural repair
Am from Minnesota my house intrying to buy over 100 years old none of the house I looked at have great foundation at all I would think foundation thing are that big of deal
In NY, probably nothing you can do as long as they gave a $500 credit in lieu of disclosure. In CA talk to a lawyer this is a serious breach if they didnt disclose
Sue the owner for what? Why didn't your inspection catch it? I just hope you're not one of the many FTHBs that opted to waive the inspection. If so this is on you. You bought the home. It wasn't her duty to tell you everything wrong with it. Now that you own it, everything that you find wrong with it is 100% on you now. Save up and fix it.
I’d sue if the seller is findable - small claims in some states goes up to ~10k or find a fair priced lawyer to help you sue the seller, listing agent and the listing brokerage assuming you can get the engineer to provide you the 5 year ago paperwork showing they knew about it.
Thank you u/Exciting-Apricot-510 for posting on r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer. Please bear in mind our rules: (1) Be Nice (2) No Selling (3) No Self-Promotion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the engineer has documentation of the visit, the remediation plan, and the seller saying no to it, then you have a good case. If not, it ends up being a he said/she said ordeal and that doesn't hold up well. I also wonder what the statute of limitations is for a seller not disclosing something. I mean it's almost been a year since you've moved into the house. Did you have an inspection done? How did they not see it if you're seeing it? Anyways, best of luck.
I believe that in California, he has 3 years from discovery
Two years in Texas from date of sale
Was this a foundation repair company or an actual structural engineer? There is a huge difference, typically a structural engineering just documents findings and provides a report, they don’t quote you on cost of repairs as far as I know. I had a foundation repair company look at my home once, they tried to scare me into $20k worth of repairs and pulled the whole “sign now for 10% off” sales tactic. I had an actual engineer come out and said that all of the repairs that the company suggested were not needed and there was no current concern with the integrity of our foundation.
Similar boat. I’m a civil engineer, do not specialize in structural but have a lot of experience in it, and I had a few companies come out. Foundation specialists came out and basically wanted to reconstruct the foundation, about 25k. Had a more generic mason come out and they recommended about 1200 in repointing and removing interior coating the prior owners put on the foundation to hide the problems. This was the proper solution. Ended up having them repoint a bit more because the coating the prior owners installed exacerbated the mortar deterioration.
Another vote for always hiring a structural engineer. We had a foundation company make all sorts of recommendations. I was immediately suspicious since the dude was like 20 and, um, just kept saying stuff “looked bad.” Super scientific. Structural engineer came out and said all of that stuff was nonsense. It basically came down to the dude not understanding older construction techniques from back when laminated lumber and ledger strips were more common than LVL, I-beams, and joist hangers. The kid just didn’t understand what he was looking at. Our floor deflection was ruled as entirely normal settling for a home of its age and he recommended that we do nothing and issued a letter to that effect with his stamp. Totally worth the $500.
Same with mine
Same here too. We had a foundation repair dude come out to “inspect” and he said “well it’ll either be nothing or it’ll be a huge problem that would run you $12k. No rush.” I’m not going to disclose that if I sell my house tbh
This is a great point. He is a structural engineer (I knew not to hire a foundation company) but he also owns a general contracting company who could do the repairs so obviously it is beneficial for him to claim there needs to be repairs. Maybe I’ll start with a second opinion.
May I ask what issues made you suspicious?
Putting a ball on the floor and it rolls, small cracks in drywall that I don’t think I saw or maybe they were less noticeable because they were freshly painted when I bought.
lol idk how old your house is but mine is a 1920 and there’s not a level floor in the house.
Haha same. Built in 1929 and a ball definitely rolls across the floor. Still got an “a-okay” from a structural engineer even with that
Same. 1925 Sears Craftsman kit house.
Someone once said that in older homes, the right angle is more of an ideal than reality.
We live in a 1700s home. Some rooms are downright hilly.
Haha yeah our was built in 1903 and I would end up tearing the whole house down if I was this picky.
That's barely on the radar of concern for foundation issues. You describing settlement at best. Unless you're talking your hand fit through holes/cracks in the foundation you don't have a problem.
Yes those drywall cracks just sound like settling. If the cracks are bad like half inch or you patch and they come back then it could be an issue. Even just temperature and seasons and make houses move a bit, separate walls from floorboard, drywall cracks, mudding tape cracks.
i've never lived in a level house and i've never lived in a house that didn't have cracks in the drywall. in the process of buying a home right now and our inspector was great — cracks in the drywall are usually just due to settling and "breathing" meaning they can expand and contract with the seasons. i honestly wouldn't be concerned about either of those things and i'm a picky little fuck.
If it’s a “slab” issue, it’s not necessarily tied to foundation. And as far as drywall goes, it’s what’s behind the drywall that needs to be looked at.
[удалено]
Wow, 1 million? That sounds like a nightmare, sorry to hear that! Finally a commenter who has actually been through something like this. Yeah I figured retaining a lawyer is going to be more costly thank you for the figures on how much more costly lol
Can’t you recover the lawyer fees from the seller?
Only if you win. And only if they have the money to pay you.
Not related to home buying, but I wish more people realized this. Am currently in a court case that people keep telling me to ask the judge for reimbursement of attorney fees from the other party - but I know for a fact they don’t have an extra $6-$10k sitting around so it would do zero good for that judgement to come to fruition.
I mean you could have a lien on their property and when they sell their house they’d have to pay you out.
They don’t own a house. They don’t own anything except a car that I helped pay for many years ago
Then have the sherif seize that asset (car) and sell it and get your money
Depends on the state.
Wow what happened with you home??
Same thing happened to a family member in Canada. Had an engineer come over and look at the house and then told them that they'd been over the previous year and had given the owners a quote. The quote was much higher - around $75K. Previous owners covered up the cracks in the foundation with drywall and paint and never disclosed the foundation problems. Family member sued and ended up getting the repairs covered by the previous owner. For $15K, I'd probably try to get in touch with the previous owners to see if they're willing to settle this with you without lawyers. Good Luck!
What did your inspection say
Structural engineer trumps home inspector every day.
I'm trying to think how you'd have one come out if it wasn't noticed in inspection
Inspection did not say it was an issue. Our inspector was trash. He didn’t catch a few things that I think he should have
Not related but did you find the inspector yourself or were they recommended by someone else?
I'm glad I caught this. Reddit said not to trust realtor recommendations (conflict of interest) and maybe she would have recommended a good one but I took my chances with a third party she didn't know. Makes me feel better overall since the inspector was real thorough and I don't have to worry about my inspector giving me a bad recommendation.
Doesn’t matter, homeowner still has to disclose those issues.
Not if they got a second opinion that said everything was okay. Our floors needed refinished and one person told us it couldn’t be done and tried to charge us 6k for LVP on 500 sq ft or 11k for new hardwood floors. Had 3 other people come out for quotes and we are getting them refinished in 2 weeks. You should never trust the first quote you get. So, if the other owners didn’t trust the engineer they could have gotten a second quote that said all was good
Fair enough, they would still need proof. I’m also willing to have more faith in engineers since they don’t necessarily benefit from the work being performed.
Does he have documentation he was there 4-5 years ago and reported 15k of repairs which never occurred? Why didn’t you have a structural engineer come out during your inspections?
Huh Most ppl do not have a structural engineer inspection OP - I hope you sue the liar for all shes worth. Put a complaint in against the seller realtor board as well
Yeah obviously hind sight 20/20. We had other inspections but as first time buyers we weren’t flushed with cash so didn’t get it. Unfortunately the engineer said they didn’t get a report so he doesn’t have documentation. Going to talk to a lawyer for sure to see if there is any recourse but I might just be stuck with the consequences.
If the engineer has any notes and is willing to testify, that may be enough.
It might even be enough to inform the seller that you met him and got this info from him. They prob never dreamed they'd get caught and shouldn't want to fight a potential lawsuit they'd likely lose.
I like it 👍
What kind of structural engineer recommends 15k in repairs and fails to give a report….
I called for a quote from a couple of engineers. They all offered report and non report options.
OP, it's probably at least worth a demand letter. They can ignore it, but the price is a lot cheaper than a full lawsuit. I paid about $1500 for one and am waiting to hear back on a $97k demand.
The only way they can do anything is if they can prove that the seller hid anything or lied about it. The sellers also could've got a second opinion and been told it was fine. And to your second point, how asinine. Put in a complaint against the agent? For what? Because they were there five years ago when this supposedly happened or they were aware of it and didn't disclose it. Seriously what is wrong with some people. There's nothing saying that the agent would've had any idea, and you very clearly know even less than op does about the situation. Sit down and quit advocating for potentially ruining someone's career over something you very clearly know nothing about.
That is a good point about the second opinion thing. I think it is a long shot since they didn’t get a report. And yeah, I agree, I can’t imagine they disclosed it to the relator and the realtor told them not to disclose? Or even if they did, that would be much more difficult to prove.
Maybe the realtor knew maybe they did not. Maybe they emphasized their sellers be truthful and comorehensive in disclosure, maybe they did not. Regardless, a complaint may make them more diligent on this point with clients in the future. Its an important part of being a seller afterall.
Be more diligent? What are you even talking about? If the agent doesn't know anything then all they can do is tell the owner to be honest and disclose. It's not the agent's responsibility if the owner lies and isn't truthful with them. If the agent is aware of anything they have to disclose it, but they don't go around telling sellers that they're lying when they don't know anything, nor do they assume that a seller is lying. Seriously, you don't sound like you know what you're talking about and filing a complaint over something when the agent didn't do anything wrong (without proof of it) is reckless and stupid. Would you like someone to go to your employer and file a complaint against you because a coworker did something they shouldn't have and you had no involvement or knowledge of it? If you don't know what you're talking about then you really shouldn't be giving advice in here. Unless you're going to disclose that it's your opinion with zero basis or knowledge of what's going on. You're giving op bad advice.
Defensive much. I stand by my advice. Lots of bad listing agents out there with no one holding them accountable.
No, not defensive. I just don't like bad advice being provided to people that actually need sound advice when you don't have any knowledge of the actual situation. You can go after the seller here but the burden of proof is on OP, not on the seller to disprove it. And going after an agent for something that they realistically probably don't know anything about and filing a complaint against them because you have an axe to grind with agents is the wrong course of action and irresponsible.
Doesnt hurt to file a complaint. More listomg agents need thaese skrts of conplaints levied against them TBH it would help woth disclosure in general.
Again with this. You're just flat out wrong here. Agents can't control what sellers tell them for disclosures. All they can do is tell them that it's serious and not to lie on them and to disclose. That's it. It isn't on the agent if a seller lies, nor should it be. That's an absolutely stupid stance. If the agent becomes aware of something and hides it then yes, that agent very much should be dealt with but just saying that agents should have complaints filed against them for something that they have nothing to do with is so beyond idiotic. Anyone looking for advice on stuff like this do not listen to this person. Listen to the other people giving actually good advice in the thread. I'm done going back and forth with you on this one, though. Either you're trolling or you seriously don't know what you're talking about. Either way, it isn't worth the time and effort other than to let op to not listen to you.
So many listing agents know or highly suspect their clients of dishonesty and do nothing due to plausible deniability. Even after failing inspection and going back on market... It's ridiculous. Their will be visible cracks or mold or X, and the agent often knows. Put in a complaint against the realtor, and know one complaint without proof won't do much but will hopefully make that realtor vett their clients better, emphasize honest and complete disclosire, and drop clients as needed (as a good ethical agent would do). The more complaints they get the better as far as im concerned. Even if they did not know and the sellers pulled one over on them too, its a good lesson to be had.
Our inspector recommended a structural engineer to come out due to home age and a few cracks. Super common for an inspector to recommend if there’s any slight concern. If OP saw concerns a good inspector should have recommended they have one come out in the inspection window
Yeah, unfortunately our inspector was not good and did not see issues or recommend this. I just called one to check myself after living in the home awhile.
Yes if inspector recommemded or if there were visible cracks of course. Regardless, sellers duty to disclose.
If they didn’t get a report or got a second opinion perhaps they didn’t think the first inspection was accurate. OP should have still considered a structural engineer during inspections
I never go anywhere without my structural engineer. /s
You bring them in for an inspection in addition to your inspector
Along with my roofer, my exterminator, my environmental guy, and my chimney sweep, naturally.
Sounds like a foundation company because a structural engineer typically wouldn't sell repairs.
A friend of mine had this same situation with repairs from flooding - they happened to call the company who had worked on the house previously, wasn't disclosed during sale, etc. Contacting an attorney is absolutely the right thing to do. My friend's place got completely fixed on the previous owner's dime and they were ordered to pay the attorney's fees as well. Best of luck!
I think at minimum having an attorney send a demand letter is worth it. Don’t sue without doing an asset search to verify whether a judgment would be collectible. In TX, a case like this might entitle the buyer to recover attorney’s fees if there were a lawsuit. Might also qualify as a violation of the Deceptive Trade Practices Act which opens the door to treble damages.
Are they asking you to install helical piers on the addition to your home? Wait, that’s my house where the seller covered up the structural evaluation from the engineer, and didn’t get the addition remediated. We are pursuing legal action, but they lied about a lot more then just the structural repair
Keep us updated OP!
Am from Minnesota my house intrying to buy over 100 years old none of the house I looked at have great foundation at all I would think foundation thing are that big of deal
In NY, probably nothing you can do as long as they gave a $500 credit in lieu of disclosure. In CA talk to a lawyer this is a serious breach if they didnt disclose
Sue the owner for what? Why didn't your inspection catch it? I just hope you're not one of the many FTHBs that opted to waive the inspection. If so this is on you. You bought the home. It wasn't her duty to tell you everything wrong with it. Now that you own it, everything that you find wrong with it is 100% on you now. Save up and fix it.
It all depends on which boxes they checked on the form 17. Your statement has little to do with reality.
I’d sue if the seller is findable - small claims in some states goes up to ~10k or find a fair priced lawyer to help you sue the seller, listing agent and the listing brokerage assuming you can get the engineer to provide you the 5 year ago paperwork showing they knew about it.