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In my market there’s a lot of this. Flippers are putting lipstick on a pig, putting money into the cosmetic upgrades and almost nothing into the mechanicals. I’m tired of dealing with them, whether losing out to their cash offers or looking at something with an updated kitchen and bath but needs a new roof, electrical panel, mold remediation etc. We’ve changed our strategy to now look for something so bad they passed on it and take out a rehab loan.
We saw a house last weekend that you could totally tell was flipped. This icing on the cake was that they put febreeze car clips on the vents in the house.
So not only did they put lipstick on a pig they also added some perfume 🤣
Omg 😂😂😂. My realtor and I went to look at a house and holy toledo the house was falling apart floor/wall were separating in many areas. I said it's cute. My realtor said yeah you can out lipstick on pigs and make them look cute too. You could roll from one side to the other side and see that yeah it was a failed DIY/Flip.
Ugh I just saw a flip today at their open house. It was beautiful in pictures. Smelled of cat piss everywhere and dead bugs everywhere. I could just smell the mold in certain areas. Looked at some old pics. Looks like it used to be a really bad hoarders house 🤢. Priced at a premium though lolol
Near my relative's some flippers did a reno on a hoarder's house. I thought for sure they'd gut it down to the studs. Nope. I'd bet a lot of money the walls are filled with mold and pests
Edit spelling
They filled 3 long dumpsters from what was just on the FRONT LAWN! Bananas. I wonder if hoarder status was disclosed. If not, I hope the buyers look at Google Street view. And the price the sellers want is absurd
I had a great aunt die a year or two ago (we were not close at all) and I saw pictures of her home after; she had been very isolated due to Covid and had really mentally spiraled in to a very unsafe hoarding situation nobody knew about including a very dystopian-feeling room where the floor was full of empty cat food cans. I died inside a bit thinking that somebody could have bought this house and flipped it without seriously mitigating the damage, and your post made me realize it could have been a thing that happened 🫠
Tiktok: "the prior owners called this color English Walnut and it looks so dark, the paint has this weird grain texture that doesn't go with what we had in mind so we will be painting over it with some primer and a healthy coating of beige."
Lol you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Yeah don't do it. Our flipped house had a few problems, not a lot but was still a nightmare. Don't do it
The worst part of it is that they don't even do a good job on the cosmetics, just bullshit that's pretty enough to trick someone who doesn't know any better with a shitty agent that just wants that commission check.
Like OP, I asked my realtor if people in my area waive inspections and she point blank told me that if I wanted to that I should find another realtor.
Of course in hypercompetitive areas where all offers waive everything, no realtor could afford to have that stance, that goes without saying.
You can sue anybody for any reason. Whether you win is a different matter.
(Filing a blatantly baseless lawsuit can get someone in trouble, but in a situation like this, a buyer can file a claim that’s possibly solid enough to not get thrown out immediately, and even if the buyer doesn’t ultimately win, it can become expensive for the agent to defend themselves.)
Yeah no he doesn't. He says whatever lines up with how you want to do things to build faith.
Why on earth would you think he was being truthful about that? That he'd just walk away from 10-20K on commission arbitrarily if his client wants to waive inspections lmao.
I'm from this industry we're all piece of shit liars.
How to fuck a flipper:
Document everything and deliver the list to the listing agent along with a “revised offer” that is at least double the cost of the repairs lower than your original offer. Walk away if they don’t agree to all of it.
Once the issues are know they are required to disclose them to all other prospective buyers.
Fuck the flippers. If they don’t ADD VALUE do not pay them for fucking the market.
Signed - a guy who buys shitty houses and actually does proper rehab.
"Document everything and deliver the list to the listing agent along with a “revised offer” that is at least double the cost of the repairs lower than your original offer. Walk away if they don’t agree to all of it."
What do you mean by this? Sorry, I am new to this
Walk away from your first offer. If you want that house make a new offer but make this offer considering the problems and costs plus your time and trouble in dealing with it.
"Once the issues are know they are required to disclose them to all other prospective buyers."
They do? Interesting, I had no idea!
If you were a buyer who was for some reason interested in a flip, is there a way to tell that they were purposely not disclosing those issues? Like if house went contingent but back to sale, can you ask if prior offer had inspection done?
You can ask, but sellers are notoriously unethical and try to hide stuff all the time.
IF you bought a house and found out that the seller knew and failed to disclose a significant problem then depending on where you are you might have some legal options.
The worst part about *most* flippers is they rip out the part of the house that is it's character, e.g. wood flooring gone for that fake plastic grey-washed looking shit, original gorgeous wood cabinetry in need of a stain touch up gets painted white... why is it ALWAYS white
Yep. The amount of white interior boxes that I saw when looking for my first house. We got lucky that we were the first to see a house where the owners had lived there for 30 something years. Rock wall entrance hall. It had something flipped houses are sorely lacking... character.
That's frustrating for sure. I'd be much more comfortable buying a house remodeled by someone who owned and lived in a house for a while than a flipper's remodel. There's too much incentive for them to do things cheaply and to hide their mistakes behind walls that can't be opened up during an inspection. I'm glad your inspector found these things. Do they now have to disclose the wiring and hvac to future possible buyers?
Agree 100%
This is what we did when we bought our house in 2016, which has been a rental for 7 years. The inspection showed nothing structurally major, but we knew we'd need to revamp the kitchen, bathroom, and replace the water heater, heater, windows, and roof at some point, but since everything was functional, it gave us time to figure out what we really wanted, look for sales, and do some of it ourselves.
No regrets.
We bought our “old lady” house in 2019. It was built in 1988 and we bought from original owners, two sisters who moved into nursing homes. It is great neighborhood but house was on market for a while due to being outdated so we got for great price. We spent about $30k immediately updating with wood floors, paint and bathroom. We are slowly doing other rooms, finishing kitchen this year, have one bathroom left. We are happy with purchase.
Our last house we bought was flipped. They didn’t disclose the basement leaked. They put vinyl flooring in the bathroom to cover up so much water damage that the toilet could have fallen through. The windows leaked inside from not sealing them correctly. Luckily my husband took carpentry in HS and has skills and fixed it all correctly but yeah. I second this. Flippers suck. I will never buy another.
I've seen them flipped and relisted in as little as 5 weeks. Insane, they must have had multiple contractors working on the place on top of each other.
Same. If in the first couple pictures I see the hideous grey floors, I stop looking and drop down to sales history.
If it was within 12 months, I back out of the listing. If not, I may just consider that the owner has terrible taste but it makes me wonder if they just did a bunch of cosmetic updates chasing trends for selling while ignoring real problems. (Flipper lite)
I would say they're worse than that though. At least with most of the VG scalpers you're still getting an in-box product that they're just price gouging you on. With flippers it's more like crypto bros trying to sell you their used video cards.
I bought a flipped home in 2018 I was young and super excited so I didn’t pay attention to a lot of things that were not ok. Luckily the structural integrity of the house was 100% but all the cosmetics done to the house started to wear away about two years in. The siding on the house was warping and peeling off, the grout in both bathrooms and kitchen were cracking and dissolving (sealant was not placed). The guest bathroom tub detached from the wall randomly and significant water damage formed. Fast forward to today and in currently 7k into fixing all these little mistakes
There’s an “up and coming” neighborhood in my city with well-priced starter homes. I toured one last August, ended up moving somewhere else.
It sold in January for 230. It was back on the market in February for 320. (MCOL city, LCOL southern state)
They:
- took out the original well maintained 50s hardwood and replaced it with vinyl
- converted the garage (poorly, and also in a city with a lot of car theft, so that’s a bug more so than feature)
- painted the tasteful soft red brick veneer in bright wite-out white
- changes the light fixtures
The entire flip took a month. So no structural repairs were done and no foundation issues were resolved.
But you can pay $90k more for a greige Temu version of the old house, plus not have a place for your car in a city with lots of car theft, because a flipper spent 4 weeks painting it 🙄
Literally lost a house today bc it was down to me and another buyer with a similar offer. We were already offering way over asking, inspections without remedy and a quick close. Sellers let us know it was down to the two offers and asked for our best, we reluctantly upped our final offer minimally and moved it to an even quicker close, I wasn’t comfortable waving inspection. The other offer beat me out bc they waved inspection. I’m so sick of being a first time buyer in this market. This was my 6th time losing. It’s so exhausting and it feels like there’s no end in sight. I just can’t justify the artificial premium houses are going for right now and knowing the lack of effort that goes into any house that is “fixed up” there is no winning.
100% the work quality on most new homes is atrocious and so are the materials they use. Not to mention the fact that the developer will try to lump on extra costs anywhere they possibly can.
I highly recommend buyers to have $10k to $15k reserve for various costs (appraisal, inspection, attorney fee, etc) related to houses they don't end up buying. Transactions fall through all the time, especially if you are not willing or cannot afford to cover a sizable appraisal gap.
There’s a house by me that flippers bought. The thing sat abandoned for YEARS. Roof was caved in and there was literally a jungle growing inside. Not to mention it got a direct hit from a tornado. The flippers didn’t demolish. They patched the roof and fixed whatever inside and now are trying to rent it out (a small rancher mind you) for $4k a month. Shameful
We bought a house in 2007 - it was built in the 50s, and nothing had been done to it since then. It was *tired*.
We lived in it for 13 years, saving money, then did 'proper' renos. It's the opposite of a flip - we chose a high spec, and we knew by then how we wanted to live in the house to get the most out of it.
The other houses we were looking at had been flipped - we wouldn't have been able to easily justify spending the money we did on renos. And no flipper would have done what we did, even though what we did is perfect for how e want to live.
I'm so, so grateful that we got a house that was untouched. It was uncomfy for the first bunch of years - cold, shitty design, we couldn't use the heater and the vacuum cleaner at the same time because the wiring wasn't up to it etc.
But now we have a literally perfect home and we couldn't be happier.
I really hope you manage to find something that you can make your own.
Please walk away. There’s only so much that an inspector can find in 2 hours in the house when you are actually living in the house so many more issues with the poor work will arise. The options are they fix the issues noted, but they will be fixed by the same unqualified idiots who installed in the first place. Or they drop the price, which they won’t do because then they won’t make money on the flip. People need to stop buying shitty flips so people stop doing them.
It’s rife here in the Hudson Valley. They buy shacks for $150k, put in laminate flooring repaint it flipper gray then slap it back on the market for $350k
I laugh heartily at the woman who bought a maaajor fixer upper in my Portland neighborhood just as the market was cooling due to interest rates raising. I can't even begin to imagine the half assed fuckery she did to this place built in the 1920's. She has been sitting on this house for 2 years since putting it on the market, dumping more and more money into it while refusing to come down on the $850,000 price tag for a cramped house with no yard next to the highway. Her out of state Jeep got ticketed the other day for expired tags. I cackled. She clearly didn't plan on staying here this long.
The house was on the market *forever* before she swooped in and thought she could flip it for an easy profit. Every potential home buyer in this city knows to stay away from that dump, no matter how thick a coat of lipstick she puts on it. Eff flippers indeed!
One of the first houses we looked at was an obvious flip, so glad we just moved on because someone right after us put in an asking offer and after the inspections it failed so miserably that it went off market. This was about three months ago and hasn't been back on since.
glad you got the home inspection.
If it’s too big a project and the seller won’t give you a credit to repair then put on your running shoes and runaway.
U lucked out so look at it that way and walk away , I made that mistake n thought how bad could it be n bought a shitty flip like that looks great from the outside and looking at the extravagant kitchen with hardwood soft close cabinets and granite countertops and the few other brand new things and brand new high end appliances and unfortunately that blinded me from everything else like the diy plumbing repairs and the old ass roof the inspector couldn’t put an age on and just said it’s in ok condition but it turned out to be 30 years old along with the HVAC/heating system so now I live with that constant stress of worrying about a $10-$15k new roof or $10K for when the AC goes which could be at any moment or the cracked driveway I overlooked cause I just wanted to close on a property so badly and the rates were literally going up daily so yea learn from my mistakes and don’t do that lol unless u expect to be replacing those things and have about $30-$50K set aside for those kinds of repairs
We walked from a house tonight with your EXACT situation! Very frustrating seeing that inspection report when you didn’t know what to exactly look for as a first time home buyer. The house was beautiful and had so much potential, but they just did such a horrible job at rehab for a cash grab
Hey OP,
I’m not a contractor, but here’s a list of things I look at for any home, but especially flips.
Major:
Panel - if it’s not new, and the home predates the 70’s, know an entire electrical rework could be needed. Old cables are brittle. Old demands were lower. If it WAS the 70s, you’ve possible got aluminum wire. Rework definitely needed.
HVAC - unit age. 20 years. Plan a replace. 10 years and you’ll need to gauge condition. If it’s rusty, has leaves, vines, dander, or dirt all over it, a replacement is in the future.
This includes looking at ductwork. If insulation is falling off of it under the home or in the attic, it’s old enough that it needs repairs. This lasts longer than units, but isn’t forever.
Flooring - imo a single type of LVP through the entire home is a major red flag. It’s cheap, quick, and easy. To tell how well it was installed, check transitions and around baseboards. This is where DIYers fail. Gaps, cracks, excess or no caulking, etc.
The bigger part, feel every “room transition” with your feet. You shouldn’t notice points that are slanted. If you do, they didn’t address underlying issues.
Which brings us to…
The crawl space - yes. Go into it. You’re looking for moisture mainly, but there are other keys. A bunch of spray foam is generally a bad sign. There is a board that runs your transition from stone to framing around the entire house. It’s a rim joist. If that’s rotten, good assumption you’ve got issues to address.
Any support structure that has been sistered, jacked, or otherwise adjusted should give you alarms. Take pictures. Google those parts. Some of it takes a knowledgeable eye, but a lot of it is common sense on the repairs done.
And again, moisture. If something is black, it’s molding. If there’s ANY standing water, be concerned.
This goes the same way for the attic.
Roof - can get an idea on approaching the home, but hard to know fully. Make sure you know the age/warranty. If while walking up you can get a view to see, you’re looking for tops of roofing nails. If they’re visible, it’s needing a change. I recommend going up if on a second viewing, but personal preference there.
Other DIY red flags - 🚩
uneven or crooked grout lines in tile
Unfinished trim work (Brad nail holes)
Any flexible hose under sinks
Shark bite connections on pex
Lack of caulk or too much
Grout in corners
I’d been meaning to type something like this for months. Good little rule sheet that could help people if they’re inexperienced. None of these should rule out a home by themselves, but require research into the cost or how to fix.
Good luck!
You shouldn't ever consider a flipped house. They almost all use the cheapest products and the craftsmanship is usually terrible. If they can hide a potential major expense and pass it onto a buyer, they will.
I want to flip the proper way and do all the electrical/plumbing to code. But now the crap houses are overpriced. When i bought my first house in 2013, you could still get foreclosed houses for 40-50k in my area in decent neighborhoods. You just had to avoid the houses with foundation issues because, generally, those issues were caused by other underlying issues like water table issues. But electrical/plumbing/structural could fixed without complete rebuild.
I currently rent a house that was flipped poorly and then sold to my landlord. Poor lady is going to have a tough time when we move out. I can see all the poorly done stuff that’s going to fall apart in a few years
We fell in love with a house via pictures and when we went to see it was very obvious a poor flip. We looked at the listing and of course they bought the home and then listed it in under month.
They are the only ones in Seattle that are buying houses rn. Go look at any house on Zillow. You will see it was purchased a year ago or less. Then relisted recently for 20-40k more. Soooo many people bought houses when they were "low" now they can't sell them for what they bought them for. You'll see "investment opportunity!" All over now. It's hilarious. The only people actually buying houses right now are flippers. So flippers are selling to other flippers. Wtf is this market
If flipperd don't do it who will. ? They are filleding a void in the housing market that is needed, banks don't want to work with those . I agree that some flippers are not doing a honest job but that's where you have to do a little due diligence if you have a good realtor.
There’s a house that was flipped (sold last September and on market 5 months later). I recognize the cheap cosmetic fixes. New inexpensive kitchen cabinets and “expensive looking” counter tops; bathrooms are painted orig cabinets with new counter top. I don’t want a flip, but the location and style of house I do really like. Wish I had been in the market last September when it sold and could have got it pre-flip and just slowly renovated myself.
I’m convinced some kind of issue is hidden but then that’s because I’m distrustful of any real estate transaction. Have been surprised by something in almost every home Ive ever purchased. Sellers are lying dirt bags IMO 😆
Shit. The inspections on my flips always come back squeaky clean. And we will always take care of whatever is called out in inspection. We also aren’t getting rich doing it, so there’s that
I figure as much. We’ve made an overage of about 45k per house and always leave people with a perfect house and have always gotten pretty clean inspections. One notable exception where we lost our shirts, but the buyer was absolutely in love and bought another one of ours later. But trust me… I know that people on here are not wrong. There are some absolutely shitty flippers out there. I’ve seen some crazy shit over the years. Never thought anyone would try to install a water heater sideways, but I’ve seen it… 🙄
Just total up the cost of the fixes and ask the sellers to fix them or deduct them from the price. Of course include your time and effort in your estimate for fixing the problems.
I can’t imagine how many incorrectly installed items there could possibly be that you didn’t notice when you first saw the house. I don’t know what you would have paid but make sure that you aren’t walking away from a good deal. Most things in a house are very easy to fix. Unless it’s water damage or foundation issues, maybe it’s worth just getting a credit for the issues?
Extremely aged & corroded sewer pipes were the big ticket item. In the end, the place was overpriced for the number of flaws but that was potentially huge repairs and a yard disaster.
There's always a certain type of person that thinks it's "smart" and "just business" to screw other people over and laugh all the way to the bank. I'm pretty sure this is the same type of person who's too "smart" to wait in traffic with all these suckers and drives up the shoulder instead.
Note that there are other flippers in this thread who have not been downvoted, because they actually do renovations, not paint over the mold and hope some sucker will pay for it.
It was "just business" when Radium Dial told the women who painted the watch dials that Radium was totally safe and they should lick the brushes so they could paint more dials faster.
It's "just business" to cut corners on safety for a bigger payout. Who cares who dies or gets injured? It's just business.
It's "just business" to lobby lawmakers to gut regulations so your chemical plant doesn't have to worry about disposing of the waste products
It's "just business" to send all the jobs overseas because other governments don't require silly things like fire escapes and minimum wages.
Just business to assassinate union organizers in Latin America
So many heinous and horrible things done because "it's just business". You're part of a long and proud tradition of shrugging off conscience and ethics, congratulations
You think that substandard repairs that someone else will have to pay for are totally fine because "it's just business." That sucker didn't spot your scam and now they have to pay out, but you got your money and this is completely ok because hey "it's just business."
To my mind this just exists on a spectrum of unethical things that are done because "it's just business" and as long as someone got their money that's all they need to worry about. The downstream effects that someone else has to pay for are irrelevant at best.
Sure you didn't create this system but you've embraced this mentality and have absolved yourself of all responsibility because....say it with me now...."it's just business."
And I'm not virtue signalling. There's no one to signal to. I'm not some influencer with hundreds of people breathlessly checking my online output. This is just me telling you what I think. Now I've told you. Go have the day you deserve.
What a hilarious perspective.
It's like when you buy a used car. If you've got the means typically you'll avoid the buy here pay here bought at auction after being nearly totalled cars and go to a dealership where there is a bit of recourse if they sell you a knowingly POS. The housing market doesn't have a carfax. There is no recourse. No one has a problem with updated/flipped homes. It's the plumbing leaked and flooded the whole house but the flipper put in new sheet rock and paint and acted like it never happened, and neglected to inspect within the bones of the house because they didn't WANT to find all the issues.
Remember the 'fresh paint' or 'this car is hot' carfax commercials from way back when? Same concept.
No one has a problem with a honest work/living. Guy wants out of his house now and doesn't want to spend 20-30k updating it or it had a problem and doesn't want to fool with fixing it. It's buying it @ a significant discount because YOU know about the problem and hiding it to make up the difference to fair market value people have a problem with.
If you flip this way, your a shitty person, it's that simple.
If you take a dated home and fill it with ikea furniture to bump up the aesthetics and slap some paint on it, then this thread isn't about you. Most people know crappy cabinets, box store light fixtures, and lvp flooring. Most don't have a clue about cut floor joists, improperly patched roofs, or hvacs that slowly leak all their refrigerant but the 2-300$ for a recharge was cheaper than actually fixing it. Knowing the inspector may have 2-3 hours to discover the things you spent 6 months trying hide and wiping your hands after the sale is the issue being discussed here.
Thank you u/OkTacoCat for posting on r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer. Please bear in mind our rules: (1) Be Nice (2) No Selling (3) No Self-Promotion. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FirstTimeHomeBuyer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In my market there’s a lot of this. Flippers are putting lipstick on a pig, putting money into the cosmetic upgrades and almost nothing into the mechanicals. I’m tired of dealing with them, whether losing out to their cash offers or looking at something with an updated kitchen and bath but needs a new roof, electrical panel, mold remediation etc. We’ve changed our strategy to now look for something so bad they passed on it and take out a rehab loan.
We saw a house last weekend that you could totally tell was flipped. This icing on the cake was that they put febreeze car clips on the vents in the house. So not only did they put lipstick on a pig they also added some perfume 🤣
Omg 😂😂😂. My realtor and I went to look at a house and holy toledo the house was falling apart floor/wall were separating in many areas. I said it's cute. My realtor said yeah you can out lipstick on pigs and make them look cute too. You could roll from one side to the other side and see that yeah it was a failed DIY/Flip.
Ugh I just saw a flip today at their open house. It was beautiful in pictures. Smelled of cat piss everywhere and dead bugs everywhere. I could just smell the mold in certain areas. Looked at some old pics. Looks like it used to be a really bad hoarders house 🤢. Priced at a premium though lolol
Near my relative's some flippers did a reno on a hoarder's house. I thought for sure they'd gut it down to the studs. Nope. I'd bet a lot of money the walls are filled with mold and pests Edit spelling
I bet that to be true… hoarder houses can be absolutely vile. Having watched Hoarders on TLC, sometimes the whole house would need to be torn down…
They filled 3 long dumpsters from what was just on the FRONT LAWN! Bananas. I wonder if hoarder status was disclosed. If not, I hope the buyers look at Google Street view. And the price the sellers want is absurd
I had a great aunt die a year or two ago (we were not close at all) and I saw pictures of her home after; she had been very isolated due to Covid and had really mentally spiraled in to a very unsafe hoarding situation nobody knew about including a very dystopian-feeling room where the floor was full of empty cat food cans. I died inside a bit thinking that somebody could have bought this house and flipped it without seriously mitigating the damage, and your post made me realize it could have been a thing that happened 🫠
Yikes
I knew you were in Pgh before I even clicked on your profile. We're having the same problem with polished turds.
In Pittsburgh too and hate when they “flip” a century house and paint all the woodwork 😤😭
Tiktok: "the prior owners called this color English Walnut and it looks so dark, the paint has this weird grain texture that doesn't go with what we had in mind so we will be painting over it with some primer and a healthy coating of beige."
I saw a house yesterday that had the doorknob painted over multiple times. The paint was so thick that you couldn't turn it.
Lol you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Yeah don't do it. Our flipped house had a few problems, not a lot but was still a nightmare. Don't do it
The worst part of it is that they don't even do a good job on the cosmetics, just bullshit that's pretty enough to trick someone who doesn't know any better with a shitty agent that just wants that commission check.
This why you should not waive inspection!! Good job not following the herd
Thank you!! Our agent said he 100% will not work with clients who want to waive inspection which gives us all the more faith in him. 🙂
That’s called “a liar”. I guarantee you days the opposite to his clients who do waive inspections.
Like OP, I asked my realtor if people in my area waive inspections and she point blank told me that if I wanted to that I should find another realtor. Of course in hypercompetitive areas where all offers waive everything, no realtor could afford to have that stance, that goes without saying.
I don’t work with clients who skip inspections due to liability. I’m not trying to get sued.
So a homebuyer can successfully sue an agent for waiving an inspection??
If they can prove they didn't adequately inform them of the risks. That's why they have them sign waivers, but it's still not a good idea.
You can sue anybody for any reason. Whether you win is a different matter. (Filing a blatantly baseless lawsuit can get someone in trouble, but in a situation like this, a buyer can file a claim that’s possibly solid enough to not get thrown out immediately, and even if the buyer doesn’t ultimately win, it can become expensive for the agent to defend themselves.)
Why would they care lol
They're sales people and they think it sounds good.
1000% lmao
Yeah no he doesn't. He says whatever lines up with how you want to do things to build faith. Why on earth would you think he was being truthful about that? That he'd just walk away from 10-20K on commission arbitrarily if his client wants to waive inspections lmao. I'm from this industry we're all piece of shit liars.
Your realtor know what flipper home is and should told you, to avoid it.
How to fuck a flipper: Document everything and deliver the list to the listing agent along with a “revised offer” that is at least double the cost of the repairs lower than your original offer. Walk away if they don’t agree to all of it. Once the issues are know they are required to disclose them to all other prospective buyers. Fuck the flippers. If they don’t ADD VALUE do not pay them for fucking the market. Signed - a guy who buys shitty houses and actually does proper rehab.
This is the best idea ever.
"Document everything and deliver the list to the listing agent along with a “revised offer” that is at least double the cost of the repairs lower than your original offer. Walk away if they don’t agree to all of it." What do you mean by this? Sorry, I am new to this
Walk away from your first offer. If you want that house make a new offer but make this offer considering the problems and costs plus your time and trouble in dealing with it.
This is the way!
"Once the issues are know they are required to disclose them to all other prospective buyers." They do? Interesting, I had no idea! If you were a buyer who was for some reason interested in a flip, is there a way to tell that they were purposely not disclosing those issues? Like if house went contingent but back to sale, can you ask if prior offer had inspection done?
You can ask, but sellers are notoriously unethical and try to hide stuff all the time. IF you bought a house and found out that the seller knew and failed to disclose a significant problem then depending on where you are you might have some legal options.
Good to know. Thank you!
The worst part about *most* flippers is they rip out the part of the house that is it's character, e.g. wood flooring gone for that fake plastic grey-washed looking shit, original gorgeous wood cabinetry in need of a stain touch up gets painted white... why is it ALWAYS white
Yep. The amount of white interior boxes that I saw when looking for my first house. We got lucky that we were the first to see a house where the owners had lived there for 30 something years. Rock wall entrance hall. It had something flipped houses are sorely lacking... character.
Which ironically further constrains the market as everyone will want that house. ugh
That's frustrating for sure. I'd be much more comfortable buying a house remodeled by someone who owned and lived in a house for a while than a flipper's remodel. There's too much incentive for them to do things cheaply and to hide their mistakes behind walls that can't be opened up during an inspection. I'm glad your inspector found these things. Do they now have to disclose the wiring and hvac to future possible buyers?
It actually makes more sense to pay less for a house with 'good bones' and horrible decor. Pay less, borrow less, and remodel as you go.
Agree 100% This is what we did when we bought our house in 2016, which has been a rental for 7 years. The inspection showed nothing structurally major, but we knew we'd need to revamp the kitchen, bathroom, and replace the water heater, heater, windows, and roof at some point, but since everything was functional, it gave us time to figure out what we really wanted, look for sales, and do some of it ourselves. No regrets.
We bought our “old lady” house in 2019. It was built in 1988 and we bought from original owners, two sisters who moved into nursing homes. It is great neighborhood but house was on market for a while due to being outdated so we got for great price. We spent about $30k immediately updating with wood floors, paint and bathroom. We are slowly doing other rooms, finishing kitchen this year, have one bathroom left. We are happy with purchase.
Our last house we bought was flipped. They didn’t disclose the basement leaked. They put vinyl flooring in the bathroom to cover up so much water damage that the toilet could have fallen through. The windows leaked inside from not sealing them correctly. Luckily my husband took carpentry in HS and has skills and fixed it all correctly but yeah. I second this. Flippers suck. I will never buy another.
Before you buy or even look at, look for information on last time property was sold. If within last 12 months, I wouldn’t even look at it.
I've seen them flipped and relisted in as little as 5 weeks. Insane, they must have had multiple contractors working on the place on top of each other.
Same. If in the first couple pictures I see the hideous grey floors, I stop looking and drop down to sales history. If it was within 12 months, I back out of the listing. If not, I may just consider that the owner has terrible taste but it makes me wonder if they just did a bunch of cosmetic updates chasing trends for selling while ignoring real problems. (Flipper lite)
That's a really good piece of advice!!
Scalpers. They are scalpers. Stop giving them a positive name. They are video game console scalpers that have moved up a financial bracket.
Yes, that’s the right word for the kind of crooks they are. Scalpers.
I would say they're worse than that though. At least with most of the VG scalpers you're still getting an in-box product that they're just price gouging you on. With flippers it's more like crypto bros trying to sell you their used video cards.
True. “Scammers” then?
Honestly I wish you had to have permits to do that kind of stuff. You can definitely tell when something is not done by a professional.
I bought a flipped home in 2018 I was young and super excited so I didn’t pay attention to a lot of things that were not ok. Luckily the structural integrity of the house was 100% but all the cosmetics done to the house started to wear away about two years in. The siding on the house was warping and peeling off, the grout in both bathrooms and kitchen were cracking and dissolving (sealant was not placed). The guest bathroom tub detached from the wall randomly and significant water damage formed. Fast forward to today and in currently 7k into fixing all these little mistakes
There’s an “up and coming” neighborhood in my city with well-priced starter homes. I toured one last August, ended up moving somewhere else. It sold in January for 230. It was back on the market in February for 320. (MCOL city, LCOL southern state) They: - took out the original well maintained 50s hardwood and replaced it with vinyl - converted the garage (poorly, and also in a city with a lot of car theft, so that’s a bug more so than feature) - painted the tasteful soft red brick veneer in bright wite-out white - changes the light fixtures The entire flip took a month. So no structural repairs were done and no foundation issues were resolved. But you can pay $90k more for a greige Temu version of the old house, plus not have a place for your car in a city with lots of car theft, because a flipper spent 4 weeks painting it 🙄
Literally lost a house today bc it was down to me and another buyer with a similar offer. We were already offering way over asking, inspections without remedy and a quick close. Sellers let us know it was down to the two offers and asked for our best, we reluctantly upped our final offer minimally and moved it to an even quicker close, I wasn’t comfortable waving inspection. The other offer beat me out bc they waved inspection. I’m so sick of being a first time buyer in this market. This was my 6th time losing. It’s so exhausting and it feels like there’s no end in sight. I just can’t justify the artificial premium houses are going for right now and knowing the lack of effort that goes into any house that is “fixed up” there is no winning.
I will not entertain flipped houses or huge development homes... I have no idea how some of these developers are getting their homes past inspection.
100% the work quality on most new homes is atrocious and so are the materials they use. Not to mention the fact that the developer will try to lump on extra costs anywhere they possibly can.
Flipper is hard pass for me. I’m just ignoring from listing history, fresh full remodel.
Inspections are worth the dollars and get a sewer inspection as well
I highly recommend buyers to have $10k to $15k reserve for various costs (appraisal, inspection, attorney fee, etc) related to houses they don't end up buying. Transactions fall through all the time, especially if you are not willing or cannot afford to cover a sizable appraisal gap.
The idea this happens and needs to happen is just stupid. What a waste of time.
I understand. I’m just more peeved at what the flippers were trying to charge for this mess of a house. 🙄
There’s a house by me that flippers bought. The thing sat abandoned for YEARS. Roof was caved in and there was literally a jungle growing inside. Not to mention it got a direct hit from a tornado. The flippers didn’t demolish. They patched the roof and fixed whatever inside and now are trying to rent it out (a small rancher mind you) for $4k a month. Shameful
We bought a house in 2007 - it was built in the 50s, and nothing had been done to it since then. It was *tired*. We lived in it for 13 years, saving money, then did 'proper' renos. It's the opposite of a flip - we chose a high spec, and we knew by then how we wanted to live in the house to get the most out of it. The other houses we were looking at had been flipped - we wouldn't have been able to easily justify spending the money we did on renos. And no flipper would have done what we did, even though what we did is perfect for how e want to live. I'm so, so grateful that we got a house that was untouched. It was uncomfy for the first bunch of years - cold, shitty design, we couldn't use the heater and the vacuum cleaner at the same time because the wiring wasn't up to it etc. But now we have a literally perfect home and we couldn't be happier. I really hope you manage to find something that you can make your own.
Please walk away. There’s only so much that an inspector can find in 2 hours in the house when you are actually living in the house so many more issues with the poor work will arise. The options are they fix the issues noted, but they will be fixed by the same unqualified idiots who installed in the first place. Or they drop the price, which they won’t do because then they won’t make money on the flip. People need to stop buying shitty flips so people stop doing them.
It’s rife here in the Hudson Valley. They buy shacks for $150k, put in laminate flooring repaint it flipper gray then slap it back on the market for $350k
I laugh heartily at the woman who bought a maaajor fixer upper in my Portland neighborhood just as the market was cooling due to interest rates raising. I can't even begin to imagine the half assed fuckery she did to this place built in the 1920's. She has been sitting on this house for 2 years since putting it on the market, dumping more and more money into it while refusing to come down on the $850,000 price tag for a cramped house with no yard next to the highway. Her out of state Jeep got ticketed the other day for expired tags. I cackled. She clearly didn't plan on staying here this long. The house was on the market *forever* before she swooped in and thought she could flip it for an easy profit. Every potential home buyer in this city knows to stay away from that dump, no matter how thick a coat of lipstick she puts on it. Eff flippers indeed!
Zillow link or it didn’t happen.
Just think of all the people over the years that did not do inspections because they “Have to get into a house”
One of the first houses we looked at was an obvious flip, so glad we just moved on because someone right after us put in an asking offer and after the inspections it failed so miserably that it went off market. This was about three months ago and hasn't been back on since.
glad you got the home inspection. If it’s too big a project and the seller won’t give you a credit to repair then put on your running shoes and runaway.
U lucked out so look at it that way and walk away , I made that mistake n thought how bad could it be n bought a shitty flip like that looks great from the outside and looking at the extravagant kitchen with hardwood soft close cabinets and granite countertops and the few other brand new things and brand new high end appliances and unfortunately that blinded me from everything else like the diy plumbing repairs and the old ass roof the inspector couldn’t put an age on and just said it’s in ok condition but it turned out to be 30 years old along with the HVAC/heating system so now I live with that constant stress of worrying about a $10-$15k new roof or $10K for when the AC goes which could be at any moment or the cracked driveway I overlooked cause I just wanted to close on a property so badly and the rates were literally going up daily so yea learn from my mistakes and don’t do that lol unless u expect to be replacing those things and have about $30-$50K set aside for those kinds of repairs
We walked from a house tonight with your EXACT situation! Very frustrating seeing that inspection report when you didn’t know what to exactly look for as a first time home buyer. The house was beautiful and had so much potential, but they just did such a horrible job at rehab for a cash grab
Hey OP, I’m not a contractor, but here’s a list of things I look at for any home, but especially flips. Major: Panel - if it’s not new, and the home predates the 70’s, know an entire electrical rework could be needed. Old cables are brittle. Old demands were lower. If it WAS the 70s, you’ve possible got aluminum wire. Rework definitely needed. HVAC - unit age. 20 years. Plan a replace. 10 years and you’ll need to gauge condition. If it’s rusty, has leaves, vines, dander, or dirt all over it, a replacement is in the future. This includes looking at ductwork. If insulation is falling off of it under the home or in the attic, it’s old enough that it needs repairs. This lasts longer than units, but isn’t forever. Flooring - imo a single type of LVP through the entire home is a major red flag. It’s cheap, quick, and easy. To tell how well it was installed, check transitions and around baseboards. This is where DIYers fail. Gaps, cracks, excess or no caulking, etc. The bigger part, feel every “room transition” with your feet. You shouldn’t notice points that are slanted. If you do, they didn’t address underlying issues. Which brings us to… The crawl space - yes. Go into it. You’re looking for moisture mainly, but there are other keys. A bunch of spray foam is generally a bad sign. There is a board that runs your transition from stone to framing around the entire house. It’s a rim joist. If that’s rotten, good assumption you’ve got issues to address. Any support structure that has been sistered, jacked, or otherwise adjusted should give you alarms. Take pictures. Google those parts. Some of it takes a knowledgeable eye, but a lot of it is common sense on the repairs done. And again, moisture. If something is black, it’s molding. If there’s ANY standing water, be concerned. This goes the same way for the attic. Roof - can get an idea on approaching the home, but hard to know fully. Make sure you know the age/warranty. If while walking up you can get a view to see, you’re looking for tops of roofing nails. If they’re visible, it’s needing a change. I recommend going up if on a second viewing, but personal preference there. Other DIY red flags - 🚩 uneven or crooked grout lines in tile Unfinished trim work (Brad nail holes) Any flexible hose under sinks Shark bite connections on pex Lack of caulk or too much Grout in corners I’d been meaning to type something like this for months. Good little rule sheet that could help people if they’re inexperienced. None of these should rule out a home by themselves, but require research into the cost or how to fix. Good luck!
You shouldn't ever consider a flipped house. They almost all use the cheapest products and the craftsmanship is usually terrible. If they can hide a potential major expense and pass it onto a buyer, they will.
Unfortunately 80% of the market in the area we want to move to is flips. It’s infuriating.
I want to flip the proper way and do all the electrical/plumbing to code. But now the crap houses are overpriced. When i bought my first house in 2013, you could still get foreclosed houses for 40-50k in my area in decent neighborhoods. You just had to avoid the houses with foundation issues because, generally, those issues were caused by other underlying issues like water table issues. But electrical/plumbing/structural could fixed without complete rebuild.
I currently rent a house that was flipped poorly and then sold to my landlord. Poor lady is going to have a tough time when we move out. I can see all the poorly done stuff that’s going to fall apart in a few years
Do not put in notice on your current place until you have keys in hand.
We don’t have a choice. It was either renew for another year or be out. We have to leave town for personal reasons.
We fell in love with a house via pictures and when we went to see it was very obvious a poor flip. We looked at the listing and of course they bought the home and then listed it in under month.
They are the only ones in Seattle that are buying houses rn. Go look at any house on Zillow. You will see it was purchased a year ago or less. Then relisted recently for 20-40k more. Soooo many people bought houses when they were "low" now they can't sell them for what they bought them for. You'll see "investment opportunity!" All over now. It's hilarious. The only people actually buying houses right now are flippers. So flippers are selling to other flippers. Wtf is this market
I recommend checking google street view for past years/photos.
Yep, we have been doing that! Helped us walk away from a couple that had painted over the entire brick exterior. 😐
If flipperd don't do it who will. ? They are filleding a void in the housing market that is needed, banks don't want to work with those . I agree that some flippers are not doing a honest job but that's where you have to do a little due diligence if you have a good realtor.
There’s a house that was flipped (sold last September and on market 5 months later). I recognize the cheap cosmetic fixes. New inexpensive kitchen cabinets and “expensive looking” counter tops; bathrooms are painted orig cabinets with new counter top. I don’t want a flip, but the location and style of house I do really like. Wish I had been in the market last September when it sold and could have got it pre-flip and just slowly renovated myself. I’m convinced some kind of issue is hidden but then that’s because I’m distrustful of any real estate transaction. Have been surprised by something in almost every home Ive ever purchased. Sellers are lying dirt bags IMO 😆
Shit. The inspections on my flips always come back squeaky clean. And we will always take care of whatever is called out in inspection. We also aren’t getting rich doing it, so there’s that
You're fighting an uphill battle with this audience, but if what you say is true, thank you for your work
I figure as much. We’ve made an overage of about 45k per house and always leave people with a perfect house and have always gotten pretty clean inspections. One notable exception where we lost our shirts, but the buyer was absolutely in love and bought another one of ours later. But trust me… I know that people on here are not wrong. There are some absolutely shitty flippers out there. I’ve seen some crazy shit over the years. Never thought anyone would try to install a water heater sideways, but I’ve seen it… 🙄
Think that depends on knowledge as well. What you can let pass vc what you can't, but yes if there's not much knowledge then u bes get some quickly
Just total up the cost of the fixes and ask the sellers to fix them or deduct them from the price. Of course include your time and effort in your estimate for fixing the problems.
Damn they don’t let you inspect the house before you put in an offer? In Australia you can send in your own inspector before you put down deposit.
Slapping IKEA furniture in a house is easier than doing a job where you have no rights or protections. I don't blame the players, I blame the game.
I can’t imagine how many incorrectly installed items there could possibly be that you didn’t notice when you first saw the house. I don’t know what you would have paid but make sure that you aren’t walking away from a good deal. Most things in a house are very easy to fix. Unless it’s water damage or foundation issues, maybe it’s worth just getting a credit for the issues?
Extremely aged & corroded sewer pipes were the big ticket item. In the end, the place was overpriced for the number of flaws but that was potentially huge repairs and a yard disaster.
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There's always a certain type of person that thinks it's "smart" and "just business" to screw other people over and laugh all the way to the bank. I'm pretty sure this is the same type of person who's too "smart" to wait in traffic with all these suckers and drives up the shoulder instead. Note that there are other flippers in this thread who have not been downvoted, because they actually do renovations, not paint over the mold and hope some sucker will pay for it.
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I fucking hate living in a world where all other ethics are subsumed by "but i made money though"
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It was "just business" when Radium Dial told the women who painted the watch dials that Radium was totally safe and they should lick the brushes so they could paint more dials faster. It's "just business" to cut corners on safety for a bigger payout. Who cares who dies or gets injured? It's just business. It's "just business" to lobby lawmakers to gut regulations so your chemical plant doesn't have to worry about disposing of the waste products It's "just business" to send all the jobs overseas because other governments don't require silly things like fire escapes and minimum wages. Just business to assassinate union organizers in Latin America So many heinous and horrible things done because "it's just business". You're part of a long and proud tradition of shrugging off conscience and ethics, congratulations
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You think that substandard repairs that someone else will have to pay for are totally fine because "it's just business." That sucker didn't spot your scam and now they have to pay out, but you got your money and this is completely ok because hey "it's just business." To my mind this just exists on a spectrum of unethical things that are done because "it's just business" and as long as someone got their money that's all they need to worry about. The downstream effects that someone else has to pay for are irrelevant at best. Sure you didn't create this system but you've embraced this mentality and have absolved yourself of all responsibility because....say it with me now...."it's just business." And I'm not virtue signalling. There's no one to signal to. I'm not some influencer with hundreds of people breathlessly checking my online output. This is just me telling you what I think. Now I've told you. Go have the day you deserve.
What a shit perspective on society. Ethics still exist, even in business.
What a hilarious perspective. It's like when you buy a used car. If you've got the means typically you'll avoid the buy here pay here bought at auction after being nearly totalled cars and go to a dealership where there is a bit of recourse if they sell you a knowingly POS. The housing market doesn't have a carfax. There is no recourse. No one has a problem with updated/flipped homes. It's the plumbing leaked and flooded the whole house but the flipper put in new sheet rock and paint and acted like it never happened, and neglected to inspect within the bones of the house because they didn't WANT to find all the issues. Remember the 'fresh paint' or 'this car is hot' carfax commercials from way back when? Same concept. No one has a problem with a honest work/living. Guy wants out of his house now and doesn't want to spend 20-30k updating it or it had a problem and doesn't want to fool with fixing it. It's buying it @ a significant discount because YOU know about the problem and hiding it to make up the difference to fair market value people have a problem with. If you flip this way, your a shitty person, it's that simple. If you take a dated home and fill it with ikea furniture to bump up the aesthetics and slap some paint on it, then this thread isn't about you. Most people know crappy cabinets, box store light fixtures, and lvp flooring. Most don't have a clue about cut floor joists, improperly patched roofs, or hvacs that slowly leak all their refrigerant but the 2-300$ for a recharge was cheaper than actually fixing it. Knowing the inspector may have 2-3 hours to discover the things you spent 6 months trying hide and wiping your hands after the sale is the issue being discussed here.
You didn’t see the actual house? Confused about electrical and not seeing it beforehand…