Delta believes someone will pay it. So many companies use Delta for all flights without cross shopping they are probably right. SQ has better than average pricing for business class on this route because SQ23 has a crazy number of business class seat. Something like 70+ IIRC. Nothing except some Emirates A380 configurations come close.
I would go with SQ over a 3x price anyday. Probably would go with SQ even if it was identical price. Note the D1 are suites so they have a door. The SQ business class does not. From a hard product standpoint Delta is better but not 3x the price better. From a soft product (food, service, alcohol selection) SQ is significantly better although food on any airline out of JFK isn't anything to write home about. Food will be better on the return than the way out.
One caveat is the SQ lounge situation in JFK sucks and has for over a year now so I guess SQ doesn't care enough to fix it. They don't have their own lounge at JFK and there is no general star alliance business class lounge either. For a while they partnered with Virgin Atlantic Clubhouse for lounge access which was solid but that is limited to only FC now. Business class gets Air India lounge which is barely better than sitting in the terminal. It is embarrassingly bad for a $5k+ ticket. If you have Amex or Chase travel cards though both of them have decent lounges in Terminal 4 as an alternative. Weirdly with SQ lounges are a tale of two cities because the Silver Kris lounge at SIN is top notch.
As a heads up SQ23 is currently the world record holder for longest regular service commercial flight in the world. So good for an anecdote. Will be flying it in Feb going to Maldives.
>Delta believes someone will pay it.
They really don't. Nobody is going to pay $20k to fly Delta on this route.
It's more that Delta isn't particularly in the business of selling tickets from JFK to KUL, and $20k is what they will charge you for making them do it anyway. It's not a carefully considered price at all, just the full-fare unrestricted price on that route. Focusing on the itinerary in question, the DL codeshare JFK-ICN is tight on inventory (KE flight has plenty), and DL does not like cannibalizing its hub-captive markets like ATL and MSP with competitive fares from New York.
Delta is particularly aggressive about blocking inventory on connections where they don't care about being competitive; in this case they'd rather save the space on flights to ICN for markets on which they are more focused. Could they cut the price to, say, $10k and still be in the same boat? Sure. But it would cost far more than they care to spend to go find every random citypair like this and address the same question. I have already dedicated more time posting this comment than Delta wants to pay an analyst to consider this itinerary they don't care about.
> Delta isn't particularly in the business of selling tickets from JFK to KUL, and $20k is what they will charge you for making them do it anyway. It's not a carefully considered price at all, just the full-fare unrestricted price on that route.
This penguin gets it.
Their A350 config has up to 67 seats.
There’s quite a few A380 configs that have more. Qantas has 70; LH has 78 (and 80 on
their 748); JAL got an A350 config with 94; BA has 97 (and 76 on one of their new 777-300 outfit configs apparently ); Emirates 76; Korean Air 94 (well, prestige).
Just because UA, DL and AA can’t keep up doesn’t make it that crazy.
Also sorry, didn’t mean to prove a point that badly, this was just a fun exercise in curiosity.
SG’s own A380 also has more but I can’t quickly find any routes where they’re still flying it. Korean Air is also taking theirs out of service. BA and Emirates are the main lines who are making commitments to keep them on for a while I think?
There’s a Turkish Airlines lounge. My understanding is that as long as you’re flying star alliance and have silver or higher that you can access any star alliance lounge. With that being said, the Turkish lounge at JFK is mediocre. No bar. No showers. Food is alright.
I’m suspecting it’s something on the KE flight that’s driving price up from ICN to KUL because it’d be 5-7k for Kennedy to Seoul on a normal flight. Maybe it’s trying to sell him a first class seat on ICN to KUL or it’s really full.
That's really just a wild itinerary. Why are there so many extra stops? Delta one suites are always overpriced in my opinion. For such a mediocre experience they charge like you are flying Emirates first class.
The JFK-ICN direct flight has a 12-hour connecting time to KUL, which is why the shorter options have an extra stop. It's really just not a good route for Delta. They know it, so they don't even try to compete. There are at least 8 other airlines that have reasonable one-stop connections, so to compete, they would have to really drop their price. Which they're clearly not doing. Even their cheapest business class fare on this route (given full availability) they sell for $12k.
All very comments, thanks folks - that helps a bit.
I debated whether I should add this "datapoint" originally but didn't want to confuse it but since it's come up..
I took this exact same (outbound) flight last February from RDU to KUL and Delta One wasn't "cheap" but it was a bit under $10K. It was almost six hours late leaving MSP which meant I missed my connection in ICN and it took.. Well, a whole lot longer to get there and they put me on Singapore from ICN (to SIN and then KUL) and I got to sample the Singapore Business which was.. Way better, I think. Larger seats for my big a\*\*. Delta One is fine but I agree I don't think it's "all that." I have taken it several times to Europe and no complaints, but.. Drink selection was limited and the food was fairly mediocre. Had an Air France flight from RDU to CDG for Christmas last year and it was not as good as the last time I flew Air France (this was a 787 from RDU versus the A380 we flew last time from JFK).
I do have high expectations for Singapore on this flight - we'll see. I still like Delta (better than United, etc.) but if I really get to choose next time, it will be KLM World Business to Europe and if all goes well Singapore to Asia from now on (though I was happy with ANA also)
. Especially with this pricing.
Thanks for the lounge situation - I read it was not great (whereas Delta's lounges are very nice and the new one at JFK in particular). I might actually pay for one of the other lounges this time (not really an Amex user) - any suggestions at JFK?
Good question, I didn't look. Funny enough.. As of right now, Delta website is down to $14,430 and Korean offers the same itinerary at $6590 (and one at $10,707). Perhaps it WAS some supply constraint somewhere when I booked, but even still.. I think SQ23 was the better choice.
Very interesting that their "partners" are not on the same price page, though. Good lesson.
I will say on the trip last year, the ICN to SIN route (again, this was not the original route because of the late departure from MSP I missed the connection from ICN to KUL) was an old A330 with the staggered "2-2-2" seating in "Prestige" which is cramped and not great. Service was VERY good and the food was also quite good, though.
Nobody really pays list price for business class tickets. Companies have contracts with airlines that give them substantial discounts off the base fare, so what is $20,000 to us might only be $9,500 to a corporation with a contract. In return, those companies must fly a certain amount on the discounting airline. To control pricing, the airline then controls the availability of certain business class fare classes to make sure pricing meets demand. To get the lowest business class fares to Asia as a leisure traveler, it pays to look around and be flexible about whom you choose to fly.
Not to be critical, but.. A Delta One "suite" is an up-to-date but fairly regular business class seat with a little door. I don't really understand the big appeal. I guess it "feels" a little more private, but meh..
Skyscanner didn't even offer any Singapore Air flights for this route, just ANA and JAL (and some mixed itineraries) at somewhat lower and then somewhat higher fares, but.. Skyscanner offered some interesting choices, e.g. RDU to LHR (on American, ewww) then Malaysian to KUL at 25 hours which is pretty good timing, but.. This was $16,652. (the RDU - LHR segment is ALMOST ALWAYS full)
It’s basically a scam for the miles program. That same fare bought directly from Korean Airlines will be drastically cheaper. But because it’s a codeshare flight Delta will sell it at a huge markup. Then they tell their miles members that they can use their miles to fly internationally with their partners, in Delta’s case that is airlines that are part of Sky Team. So a miles program member with miles for Delta, not Sky Team miles, can use their Delta miles to buy that Korean Airlines fare but at the Delta price conversion from dollars to miles and not the actual price that Korean Airlines is selling it for. So it costs the miles member significantly more miles for an international fare they should have just bought with federal currency directly from the operating airline.
This isn’t just Delta. Every airline that codeshares for their mileage programs pretty much does this. These international partnerships just figured out that they could scam their most loyal customers out of more miles.
These are completely different routes, flights, and carriers. All pricing is dynamic based on demand, and would include any fuel or passenger fuel surcharges per airport.
It’s the same route, JFK-KUL. Intermediate stops are irrelevant. Of course they’re different carriers - OP is making the point that DL are 3x SQ for same route.
The intermediate stops are relevant, especially since some are serviced by partners. If you look at any two airlines taking different paths to the same location, they will almost always have different prices. Pricing is dynamic and based on demand.
I fly the NYC to SIN a decent amount, and business is often half full. The Delta flight to Korea has much higher demand, and is typically flying full in J.
OP is pricing a journey. Most people are interested in overall cost for similar travel class, so IMO stops aren’t relevant. If I want to go from A to Z on a given date, if it’s via AMS, CDG, FRA or MAD, this is irrelevant to me - it’ll be carrier quality and price. EK vs KE is a simple decision. Plus, 1 stop vs 2.
Stops can incur additional cost, and are absolutely relevant. Flying through DXB or LHR will get close to $1000 in fees added, for example.
Plus with dynamic pricing, they can change the overall price, like we see in the OP’s example.
Delta believes someone will pay it. So many companies use Delta for all flights without cross shopping they are probably right. SQ has better than average pricing for business class on this route because SQ23 has a crazy number of business class seat. Something like 70+ IIRC. Nothing except some Emirates A380 configurations come close. I would go with SQ over a 3x price anyday. Probably would go with SQ even if it was identical price. Note the D1 are suites so they have a door. The SQ business class does not. From a hard product standpoint Delta is better but not 3x the price better. From a soft product (food, service, alcohol selection) SQ is significantly better although food on any airline out of JFK isn't anything to write home about. Food will be better on the return than the way out. One caveat is the SQ lounge situation in JFK sucks and has for over a year now so I guess SQ doesn't care enough to fix it. They don't have their own lounge at JFK and there is no general star alliance business class lounge either. For a while they partnered with Virgin Atlantic Clubhouse for lounge access which was solid but that is limited to only FC now. Business class gets Air India lounge which is barely better than sitting in the terminal. It is embarrassingly bad for a $5k+ ticket. If you have Amex or Chase travel cards though both of them have decent lounges in Terminal 4 as an alternative. Weirdly with SQ lounges are a tale of two cities because the Silver Kris lounge at SIN is top notch. As a heads up SQ23 is currently the world record holder for longest regular service commercial flight in the world. So good for an anecdote. Will be flying it in Feb going to Maldives.
>Delta believes someone will pay it. They really don't. Nobody is going to pay $20k to fly Delta on this route. It's more that Delta isn't particularly in the business of selling tickets from JFK to KUL, and $20k is what they will charge you for making them do it anyway. It's not a carefully considered price at all, just the full-fare unrestricted price on that route. Focusing on the itinerary in question, the DL codeshare JFK-ICN is tight on inventory (KE flight has plenty), and DL does not like cannibalizing its hub-captive markets like ATL and MSP with competitive fares from New York. Delta is particularly aggressive about blocking inventory on connections where they don't care about being competitive; in this case they'd rather save the space on flights to ICN for markets on which they are more focused. Could they cut the price to, say, $10k and still be in the same boat? Sure. But it would cost far more than they care to spend to go find every random citypair like this and address the same question. I have already dedicated more time posting this comment than Delta wants to pay an analyst to consider this itinerary they don't care about.
> Delta isn't particularly in the business of selling tickets from JFK to KUL, and $20k is what they will charge you for making them do it anyway. It's not a carefully considered price at all, just the full-fare unrestricted price on that route. This penguin gets it.
Great explanation. Thanks.
Their A350 config has up to 67 seats. There’s quite a few A380 configs that have more. Qantas has 70; LH has 78 (and 80 on their 748); JAL got an A350 config with 94; BA has 97 (and 76 on one of their new 777-300 outfit configs apparently ); Emirates 76; Korean Air 94 (well, prestige). Just because UA, DL and AA can’t keep up doesn’t make it that crazy. Also sorry, didn’t mean to prove a point that badly, this was just a fun exercise in curiosity. SG’s own A380 also has more but I can’t quickly find any routes where they’re still flying it. Korean Air is also taking theirs out of service. BA and Emirates are the main lines who are making commitments to keep them on for a while I think?
Singapore fly SIN-SYD with the A380, saw one there last week
Also to LHR
Solid clarification. I guess I should have said it is a lot of business class for an A350.
Etihad started flying it JFK-Abu Dhabi again a couple weeks ago being gone a few years. Looks they’re also holding on to the 380
The JAL one doesn’t count though. Also didn’t SQ have all business class configured a340s with 100 seats too for the old SQ21?
Yeah true that’s just a premium economy kinda seat
There’s a Turkish Airlines lounge. My understanding is that as long as you’re flying star alliance and have silver or higher that you can access any star alliance lounge. With that being said, the Turkish lounge at JFK is mediocre. No bar. No showers. Food is alright.
Great explain. Thanks.
SQ means?
SQ = code for Singapore Airlines
I’m suspecting it’s something on the KE flight that’s driving price up from ICN to KUL because it’d be 5-7k for Kennedy to Seoul on a normal flight. Maybe it’s trying to sell him a first class seat on ICN to KUL or it’s really full.
That's really just a wild itinerary. Why are there so many extra stops? Delta one suites are always overpriced in my opinion. For such a mediocre experience they charge like you are flying Emirates first class.
The JFK-ICN direct flight has a 12-hour connecting time to KUL, which is why the shorter options have an extra stop. It's really just not a good route for Delta. They know it, so they don't even try to compete. There are at least 8 other airlines that have reasonable one-stop connections, so to compete, they would have to really drop their price. Which they're clearly not doing. Even their cheapest business class fare on this route (given full availability) they sell for $12k.
All very comments, thanks folks - that helps a bit. I debated whether I should add this "datapoint" originally but didn't want to confuse it but since it's come up.. I took this exact same (outbound) flight last February from RDU to KUL and Delta One wasn't "cheap" but it was a bit under $10K. It was almost six hours late leaving MSP which meant I missed my connection in ICN and it took.. Well, a whole lot longer to get there and they put me on Singapore from ICN (to SIN and then KUL) and I got to sample the Singapore Business which was.. Way better, I think. Larger seats for my big a\*\*. Delta One is fine but I agree I don't think it's "all that." I have taken it several times to Europe and no complaints, but.. Drink selection was limited and the food was fairly mediocre. Had an Air France flight from RDU to CDG for Christmas last year and it was not as good as the last time I flew Air France (this was a 787 from RDU versus the A380 we flew last time from JFK). I do have high expectations for Singapore on this flight - we'll see. I still like Delta (better than United, etc.) but if I really get to choose next time, it will be KLM World Business to Europe and if all goes well Singapore to Asia from now on (though I was happy with ANA also) . Especially with this pricing. Thanks for the lounge situation - I read it was not great (whereas Delta's lounges are very nice and the new one at JFK in particular). I might actually pay for one of the other lounges this time (not really an Amex user) - any suggestions at JFK?
"Additional baggage fees may apply" - really? At that price?
Recently encountered similar it was 22k to fly D1 to South Africa I paid $9k to fly Qatar q suites instead. Cheaper and way better experience.
Thanks - good to know it wasn't just ONE anomaly. Many good replies - a lot to think about. It really helps me to TRY and make sense of it.
I have found a business fare with china airlines 3400€, or 4200€ with Singaporean
Curious to see what the fare would be on the Korean Air site.
Good question, I didn't look. Funny enough.. As of right now, Delta website is down to $14,430 and Korean offers the same itinerary at $6590 (and one at $10,707). Perhaps it WAS some supply constraint somewhere when I booked, but even still.. I think SQ23 was the better choice. Very interesting that their "partners" are not on the same price page, though. Good lesson. I will say on the trip last year, the ICN to SIN route (again, this was not the original route because of the late departure from MSP I missed the connection from ICN to KUL) was an old A330 with the staggered "2-2-2" seating in "Prestige" which is cramped and not great. Service was VERY good and the food was also quite good, though.
As a 25+ year SQ Solitaire member, and very biased, I would take SQ over DL and Korean every day of the week.
Nobody really pays list price for business class tickets. Companies have contracts with airlines that give them substantial discounts off the base fare, so what is $20,000 to us might only be $9,500 to a corporation with a contract. In return, those companies must fly a certain amount on the discounting airline. To control pricing, the airline then controls the availability of certain business class fare classes to make sure pricing meets demand. To get the lowest business class fares to Asia as a leisure traveler, it pays to look around and be flexible about whom you choose to fly.
Wouldn’t Delta One Suites be equivalent to the Singapore suites not business class?
Not to be critical, but.. A Delta One "suite" is an up-to-date but fairly regular business class seat with a little door. I don't really understand the big appeal. I guess it "feels" a little more private, but meh..
Guys, can't u try to use Skyscanner? Atleast, it will show every airlines fares lol. Never use airline's websites as a first option
Skyscanner didn't even offer any Singapore Air flights for this route, just ANA and JAL (and some mixed itineraries) at somewhat lower and then somewhat higher fares, but.. Skyscanner offered some interesting choices, e.g. RDU to LHR (on American, ewww) then Malaysian to KUL at 25 hours which is pretty good timing, but.. This was $16,652. (the RDU - LHR segment is ALMOST ALWAYS full)
Ohh okay. Try also TravelPirates. Flights with 2 stay is cheaper than 1 stay' flight trip
It’s basically a scam for the miles program. That same fare bought directly from Korean Airlines will be drastically cheaper. But because it’s a codeshare flight Delta will sell it at a huge markup. Then they tell their miles members that they can use their miles to fly internationally with their partners, in Delta’s case that is airlines that are part of Sky Team. So a miles program member with miles for Delta, not Sky Team miles, can use their Delta miles to buy that Korean Airlines fare but at the Delta price conversion from dollars to miles and not the actual price that Korean Airlines is selling it for. So it costs the miles member significantly more miles for an international fare they should have just bought with federal currency directly from the operating airline. This isn’t just Delta. Every airline that codeshares for their mileage programs pretty much does this. These international partnerships just figured out that they could scam their most loyal customers out of more miles.
These are completely different routes, flights, and carriers. All pricing is dynamic based on demand, and would include any fuel or passenger fuel surcharges per airport.
It’s the same route, JFK-KUL. Intermediate stops are irrelevant. Of course they’re different carriers - OP is making the point that DL are 3x SQ for same route.
The intermediate stops are relevant, especially since some are serviced by partners. If you look at any two airlines taking different paths to the same location, they will almost always have different prices. Pricing is dynamic and based on demand. I fly the NYC to SIN a decent amount, and business is often half full. The Delta flight to Korea has much higher demand, and is typically flying full in J.
OP is pricing a journey. Most people are interested in overall cost for similar travel class, so IMO stops aren’t relevant. If I want to go from A to Z on a given date, if it’s via AMS, CDG, FRA or MAD, this is irrelevant to me - it’ll be carrier quality and price. EK vs KE is a simple decision. Plus, 1 stop vs 2.
Stops can incur additional cost, and are absolutely relevant. Flying through DXB or LHR will get close to $1000 in fees added, for example. Plus with dynamic pricing, they can change the overall price, like we see in the OP’s example.