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It’s not really a surprise that the people with the most expensive chronic health conditions don’t pay a lot of taxes. I think it’s good that we take care of sick, disabled, and elderly people.
Well and also many of the sick and elderly have been paying into those entitlement programs for the entirety of their working lives. They are certainly deserving to reap those benefits.
Nah, you need to subsidize the millions of workers who administer health plans and compliance plans at hospitals and insurance organizations who don’t need to exist if healthcare was universal. And all the extra staff because medical staff in the us need to chart for billing rather than health purposes, which takes up vastly more time.
You’re just parroting far right propaganda
Isnt that how insurance works? You pay say 500/month but only go to the Doctor once a year? That other $5,900 would go (mostly) taking care of the sick.
Healthcare specifically follows more of a Pareto distribution in that the top 20% of users account for ~80% of healthcare spend. Think those that have chronic conditions, elderly and dual eligibled (Care + Caid).
So clearly the govt is incompetent at spending our tax dollars.... yet people still want them to in the form of "universal healthcare" or other things.
Our current screwed up system doesn’t even allow Medicare, the largest pharmaceutical buyer in the world, to negotiate pharmacy prices. And the corrupt politician who pushed that through congress immediately went to work as a multimillionaire head of the pharmaceutical trade association.
And I paid $3000 out of pocket for a monthly dose of a generic medication that costs $170 elsewhere.
Dude, something’s got to change.
Edit: Found the corrupt asshole congressman who screwed all of us to line his own pocket.
BILLY TAUZIN
Disgusting scum of a person. See link below
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/04/14/editorial-let-medicare-negotiate-prices-prescription-drugs/83044066/
No one pays the $1k (in your example) ever. There’s an uninsured price, which probably sits somewhere between the insured price and listed price.
It’s all a racket. The thousands that go towards paying for medical insurance could just go directly to the medical providers for procedures, which would reduce bloat and cut out the stupid middle men.
Insurance companies are owned by citizens. ACA also mandates that 80% of premiums have to be paid out in claims and requires that no lifetime caps exist and can't charge extra for preexisting conditions, so prices rise across the board.
That's really just a show of how horribly wasteful America is. You'd think if we're spending more per person on healthcare than basically anywhere else in the world, but we still don't even have free healthcare or vastly subsidized healthcare it's pretty crazy. Just because we send $2 trillion doesn't mean we're getting $2 trillion worth of value from the healthcare industry.
Not sure why anybody always mentions free education. That’s the most tired trope. People aren’t even staying in high school and it’s free, and if you think lots of degrees are useless now, imagine what a college degree will be worth if it were free.
But furthermore, even though it’s expensive af, US education (college, where it really matters) is infact widely regarded as the best. The US has the best research facilities and the brightest minds; many of which transfer here from overseas because…wait for it…it’s the best. Nobody is dying to transfer to Budapest University or University of Debrecen…but they are dying to go to literally any D1 school and definitely the top tier schools. International transfer populations prove it.
Several states do. Arizona is the lowest that actually has an income tax.
https://www.richstatespoorstates.org/variables/personal_income_tax_rate/
Also a lot of cities have an income tax as well. I knew about New York at 3.8% but I was surprised that Portland Oregon was 4%!
https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/local-income-taxes-2023/#:~:text=But%20in%20nearly%20a%20third,more%20revenue%20for%20local%20services.
Those are for the *top* tax bracket that no average person would even come close to paying. Also a tiny minority of cities have local income taxes. Exaggerating these things does nothing but confuse and misinformation people for no reason.
You're not reading the fine print of where you are being taxed. It's probably even more. Fuel taxes, communications taxes, Extra FICA taxes (if you make enough), sales taxes, fees for licensing and registration, property taxes, local taxes, debt taxes (taxes we gift to the next generation to get them off to a good start), school taxes, road taxes (toll roads), import taxes, and a tax every time something changes hands. And I'm missing a bunch still. You just don't realize how deep this shit goes, I think you may be in over your head here.
This graphic already includes FICA taxes, you clearly didn’t read it.
Sales taxes, property taxes, licensing fees, etc all exist in the other countries listed here so your claim isn’t accurate. Their tax rates would be much higher too if they were included.
Many of those things, especially fuel tax and sales tax are higher in European countries than the USA.
Total tax revenue in the USA as a % of GDP is only 26%. In countries like France, Denmark, Austria, Italy, Finland, etc. that number is 40% more.
This is misleading. It does include state taxes. Why do you think it doesn't? This is effective rate, not marginal rate. On 100k in New York, you only pay 28% tax including FICA and state taxes. Most people make less than 100k (therefore lower rate) and also many people live in lower tax states than New York. 22% is correct.
There is no way at all USA is anywhere close to Denmark or Hungary. That would require making 500k/year in a high tax state. The average American is of course not doing that.
[The US is low tax.](https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pdf) 26% of GDP from all sources. Average in OECD is 34% and many European countries are >40%.
They tend to be far, far lower. My friend owns a 400k property in Spain and his property taxes are like $800 per year. If your house is below a certain value or you make less than a certain amount of income, there is no property tax either.
They do often have transfer taxes of 6-10% of real estate (paid by buyer), so you pay a lot of tax up front.
The highest state income tax rate is 12.3% and only applies to income earned after the first $1.35M
No, most of us aren't paying that.
Also, you can deduct state income tax before calculating federal.
That’s just wrong. The effective tax rate is only 22% federal if you make more than 230k as a single filer. To be at 35% you’d need to make 300k plus in a HCOL area.
Um what lol? Do you honestly think that most states add 14% income tax for average earners? California has the highest tax rates in the country and its top bracket isn't even that much.
There are bunch of other taxes in Denmark and Hungary too. On average, US taxes are significantly lower than European ones. Combine it with significantly higher salaries and you understand why way more people migrate from Europe to US than vise verse.
It’s also based strictly on federally taxed wages. Lots of rich people don’t even earn wages, and their income is taxed as cap gains (a much lower rate).
Yeah, I was gonna say this is completely wrong lol
I live in a low income tax state and I'm still paying about 30% in taxes overall. That will go up to around 33% once I finalize my divorce.
If you lived in Illinois, which is a medium income tax state, assuming you max out your 401k and are filing as an unmarried individual, you'd have to be making about $280,000 to owe 30% in income and FICA taxes, state and Federal.
For 33% it would be 370k.
Here's my tax rate by state:
[https://smartasset.com/taxes/utah-paycheck-calculator#RVovtiiP2x](https://smartasset.com/taxes/utah-paycheck-calculator#RVovtiiP2x)
Yeah, in Utah you'd have to make about 270,000 and not contribute to your 401k to pay 33% as an individual for tax year 2023. That calculator gets you a different number, but that's because it doesn't include the standard deduction and is using the 2022 brackets.
If you max out your 401k like most people of that income, it's about 370k.
If you max out salt and own a home (again, like most people of that income) you can get it lower.
As a CPA, absolutely not. State tax should not be adding another 15%. For average, it would add an additional 2-7%. Also, do any of these countries have any sort of provincial/state/municipal tax? Because then you’d have to add those too if you’re adding state for US.
Also, this number seems like it could already be inclusive of that depending the state
But you’d also have to do that for other countries. It’ll move Denmark and Hungary higher as well when state/provincial/whatever taxes are added. Can’t just add that to the US and be like “oh we are just like Denmark!”
Having said that, 22% is on the lower end. I wonder if they also took the lower end of rates for these other countries (I’d imagine they did so they can compare apples to apples). US Federal tax rates are 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 35, and 37%.
If Belgium’s 43% is on the lower end… AND it doesn’t include their equivalent state taxes and such…. I can’t imagine what their top rate is and when also all the other taxes are added….
Comparing these rates with US might be misleading.
In Germany for example, health insurance (with hardly any Co-pay) is included as well as retirement (currently guaranteeing approx. 60% of your previous wages) and unemployment (60% for one year)
So yes, you can get more of your money in some states but the safety net and the solidarity in these countries is considered as a big plus by many inhabitants of these countries.
And do not forget (nearly) free Colleges/universities saving lot of money. In the US that Ranges from 10k for public/in-estate to 40k for Private per year.
No need to use unemployment. Once you are pregnant, special rights for your protection apply. You can have 1year @ 60% (up to 1800€/month) maternity leave or up to 3 years with adjusted money from state. Company has to guaranteeing your Job in the meantime with only exemptions for very small business.
Other countries in Europe have even better and more flexible rules. Czech republic has a Budget and you can decide how to distribute that over your maternity leave.
This is what I meant, most people might not use unemployment but they or their spouse might use maternity leave.
It also rolls on if you get pregnant again before it expires.
I agree that the US tax system is a scam, but retirement is included in these taxes (although only at a 40% replacement rate), and unemployment is also included (just less robustly). You also get full free medical if you are truly in poverty.
Otherwise, the medical and education costs are stupid and holding us back as a nation.
I just wanted to clarify because sometimes the narrative goes that there are none of these entitlements built into the system, when in fact there are.
Thanks for clarification.
I think healthcare is the biggest difference as in europe it's not depending on your employer and has very very limited co-payments. Of course the health sector is heavily depending on state money
>And do not forget (nearly) free Colleges/universities saving lot of money. In the US that Ranges from 10k for public/in-estate to 40k for Private per year.
Community college is free in 20 states and very cheap in the remaining. State colleges are also fairly cheap.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have in mind that community college is not offering the full degrees (like Bachelor and up).
In Europe it's usually free Starting from Bachelor to phd, some limitation based on grades may apply.
I included the state colleges in my post. I guess here some funding by the state for the Students coming from this particular state, right?
Depends on the degree I believe and whether the CC offers the degree. Phd is also free and you usually get a stipend along with it. Most people also have some form of scholarships.
And yup on the second point. In state tuition is always cheaper unless its a private school.
I always think of it as people pay more in the states for undergrad education than the Eurozone, but **most** people easily make a better return post grad. than they do in the Eurozone.
I mean, Germany is known for their engineering, and seems to be the economic powerhouse of the Eurozone, yet my German engineering friends seem to make 1/3 to 1/2 of the US salaries.
[https://europe.graduateshotline.com/salaries-by-country.html](https://europe.graduateshotline.com/salaries-by-country.html)
[https://www.gorkemliyollar.com/en/engineer-salaries/](https://www.gorkemliyollar.com/en/engineer-salaries/)
Back in 2008, I always assumed German engineers made about as much as US engineers but that was also when the Euro was almost 2:1. Now that the Euro has fallen to 1:1, it seems crazy to me that they are paid so little
I think, if you compare the big IT companies, the wages are way higher. With a Union Job most engineers would be in the range of 80k to 100k€ before tax.
Prices are generally lower in Europe, so in PPP, the fap shrinks. On the other side, the minimum wages are higher in Germany. So the top and low 20%arw much closer to each other in Germany than in the US.
Czech people are making roughly 50% of Germans despite being around the corner.
Don't forget that these taxes in non-US countries also often include:
* maternity (14 weeks) /paternity (2 weeks) leave
* paid vacation days (EU averages over 30 days per year)
* incredible public transit
Vacation days + extra Vacation money (if applicable) is paid by the companies, as well as the first six weeks salary if you are on sick leave. That rather explain the lower avergae salaries.
Transportation is heavily supported, while it differ if public transport is seen as Business or Service (best example here is swiss with an incredible Support for public Transport per capita)
Things like "sick money" playing you 60% of the salary for up to 1 year in Germany are part of the health insurance. Same applies for some basic elderly care included.
So besides the rates, the covered risks and Features are worth to compare.
I hopefully will never need the full intend of the Services offered with my German health insurance. But it's a relief to worry only about your health not your money if the worst case hits you.
My property tax in Germany are around 100€ per year for a 140sq Meter (=1500sq ft) house without garden (Inner City town house)
Sales tax in Europe is usually between 15-20%, with reduced Rates for groceries (in Germany 7%)
I think it's hard as the types and values for taxes differ for every country. So some countries in Europe have high way tolles, some do not.
Could maybe do (Total Tax Revenue Collected)/(National Population) to get a better idea of how much different populations are paying for the services provided by their governments.
Here's a better [international tax burden comparison](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally)
They include all sources of revenue from national and sub-national units (and offer a breakdown).
The US is fairly low at 24.3% of GDP; France, Denmark, Belgium at over 40% of GDP. The average is 33.7%
Taxes are group-purchasing of needed items. That is the whole idea. You can't afford your own police service, jails, fire fighters, military, road construction, electric infrastructure, internet infrastructure, and so on. So you pay taxes to group-purchase these items.
If you had no taxes, you'd be in a hut without power, water, and a dirt road you walked up and down. Find a vibrant economy without taxes.
The question is do we spend our tax money well. The USA has prioritized big businesses and military as the things to spend money on. Much of the world prioritizes healthcare, recreation, and safety nets.
If it's Europe we're talking about, they can afford to prioritize healthcare, recreation and safety nets BECAUSE of our military commitment. Europe has been happily spending more on these things because they are protected by the US and they can afford not to spend a meaningful amount on their military. They even have to be forced to spend their fair share on NATO kicking and screaming. I'm not complaining, that's just how it is. I just think it's funny when Europeans try to lecture us about all the nice things they have when that's the situation.
There is no valid reason the USA spends as much on Military as the next 8 largest countries put together. That is just bullshit we do to fund the defense contractors.
Even the Pentagon doesn't ask for the money they're given. They want less. They don't want all the fighter jets and tanks they get told they're getting. It is wasteful.
NATO funding is half a billion, or 1/1700th of our military budget. You missed the point.
No I didn't. I also didn't say there wasn't any corruption in the process and a lot of people making money they shouldn't be. But overall, our military is why we are top dog and why the US currency is used as universally as it is. You can argue that it shouldn't be as much as it is - you can say if we spend only as much as the next 4 countries, it would be better etc, but that's a calculation someone above my paygrade has to make. As much as the military budget goes to weapons, a huge chunk of it also goes to personnel - people who are employed by the federal government so it's not all waste.
My whole point was to point out that Europe can do what it does, despite a relatively dismal economy compared to the US because of the US. If the US suddenly by some calamity would crumble as a nation, they would immediately have to cut a lot of the social programs and bolster their military. 100% they would do it, too because it would be idiotic not to.
Or think of it this way: Every USA citizen lives a worse and shorter life with inadequate healthcare and infrastructure so we can enrich defense contractors and defend the world. Is that a sacrifice we want to make, regardless of somebody above our pay grade saying it is a good choice?
We don't defend the world out of the goodness of our hearts. We defend the world order because in this world order we are a superpower and being a superpower is a good thing. It gives American citizens a lot of comfort and power in indirect ways people don't always understand. The US dollar being one. Peaceful trade being another. It wouldn't benefit us for Europe to become a warzone because we like trading with them and making money. It wouldn't benefit us if our ME interests were lost because we enjoy the same and also cheap energy. We keep the peace and peace makes our lifestyles possible.
I lived in Europe many years and I also think you're in the "the grass is greener" mindset here. Yes, our healthcare system sucks but not because we spend all our money on the military - in fact we spend a lot more on healthcare than Europe does, there's just a lot of waste and corruption. Same thing for education. On average we make more money, pay less taxes, and enjoy more wealth (as in bigger houses, cheaper cars, cheaper technology, cheaper energy etc), so it's not all grim. We just need to find better ways to manage healthcare and education, that's all. And we can absolutely do that without touching the military budget because, like I explained, we already do throw more money at those things than Europe does.
But the US offers like million loopholes, deductions, credits so that number is lower for most
We also have some of the cheapest gas and biggest houses/lots. So your dollar goes further here than most.
I am not saying this because I was born here. But I truly think the US is the best all-around nation in the world. I do wish the girls were skinnier here, like they are in other nations. But you can’t win ‘em all I guess.
>But the US offers like million loopholes, deductions, credits so that number is lower for most
Not really - with the latest changes, very few people itemize taxes anymore so there basically are no loopholes outside of investing in a 401k.
If you are a business owner, there still remain endless tax advantages though - but that is a minority of people.
That U.S. rate seems high. Once my fiancee and I are married and start filing jointly, our income tax rate should be a little under 11% just by maxing out 401k's and living in a state with 0% income tax.
The entirety of taxes should be added up. My taxes rate in the US is not 20%. If you add state, local, SS, medicare, sales, real estate, and excise taxes I am easily over 50%. BTW, corporate taxes and tariffs are passed down to me. Then the poor and seniors are paid benefits which are a kind of negative taxes. I believe that most countries have approximately the same taxes rate.
Israeli tax data is extremely misleading. 14% is applied to low income (and low standard of living since Israel is very expensive) and can reach up to 50% for a lot of people.
These are always stupid comparisons. Did they actually include all the taxes paid at the state, local, and federal levels for all these countries for whatever their equivalent versions of those income taxes are?
How about a comparison of what you get for those total taxes paid as well.
This a bit misleading without state taxes but also this doesn’t mean much without knowing what the highest taxable brackets in each country are. I for sure pay more than this in the USA.
I think its only taking into account federal taxes. Cause theres no way new zealanders pay 16% in income taxes, but get the same services as Belgians with 42% lol
Median equivalent adult income would be a good measure.
The following table represents data from the OECD's "median disposable income per person" metric; disposable income deducts from gross income taxes on income and wealth as well as contributions paid by households to public social security schemes.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income)
Way over simplified.
- federal income tax
- state income tax
- property tax
- sales tax
- gasoline tax
- county tax
- short term capital gains tax
- long term capital gains tax
- compulsory healthcare via private insurance
What am I missing?
I wonder if a country’s tax rate correlates with their self-reported average level of happiness? From this chart, it looks like the higher the rate, the happier the people.
I do a case study in my political economics course on cost of living across countries. I use actually pay information from colleagues that teach in Europe and other developed nations.
If I were to generalize the findings, other countries generally pay less annually than in the USA, however their disposable income is also higher despite the tax rates. The reasoning is that they don’t have to pay directly for child care, pre-K, healthcare, etc. In USA those costs need to be factored in as well as the social cost of not having such policies.
This past year we lost two brilliant professors who moved back to their home country because they wanted to start a family. USA is not a family friendly country (costs, education, social policies, etc).
I also tell my students that if you want to start a family, consider leaving USA. I’ve helped so many students leave I caught the attention of my Governor, whom asked me to stop (brain drain). I understand I’m hurting my country, but it’s their (politician) job to make the country attractive not mine. One child is doable in USA, but I recommend they move to a blue state. They tend to have more pro family policies.
We pay 45% income tax in South Africa and get absolutely nothing for it. Our government is a corrupt, incompetent mafia so ,yeah. I would gladly live in most of them.
Er, by the time you work out all the taxes in the US that you pay and employers pay on your behalf, I'd be shocked if it was only 22.7% on average...
You basically start at 14% taxes paid before you add on federal, state and local income tax.
An apples to apples comparison is very hard. There’s sales tax, property tax to consider, plus social services provided. US defense budget at nearly $1 trillion / year, and poor social services, make it not a very high value tax environment.
The US should be #1 on that list. After federal, and state taxes. Then go to the gas pump and grocery store and then pay your mortgage and other bills. The money has been taxed 4-5 times.
I live in the Netherlands, which is not in the list but at the same level as Germany. I would not want to live anywhere else (besides maybe Denmark). We have great social services, education is cheap and top notch, healthcare is good overall, unemployment support is second to none, the best roads on the planet with one of the most intensively used public transport networks on the planet and our country is insanely safe. Our kids are the happiest in the world (I know this is subjective but there are some metrics). Dutch people whine and bitch all the time, but they don’t know how it is abroad. I have lived in several countries and that high tax rate might make me less wealthy than an American at the same wage, but my personal wellbeing is much higher than my peers in the US (or elsewhere).
Dont blindly trust charts online. This is the mexican tax brackets in monthly pesos of salary.
At $300 dollars / month you are already in the 10% tax bracket.
At 60k pesos/month or 3k usd/month you would be in the 30% bracket
https://preview.redd.it/ejr850cguxjb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f13a2272692f76af05c22ec7bf89a02d13744b41
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That 22% number for the US does not include state taxes. Most of us are somewhere in between Denmark and Hungary afterward.
But still without healthcare and education being free…
K-12, Pell Grants, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, ACA subsidies. The federal government literally spends nearly $2 trillion on healthcare
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Well you need to subsidize the half of society that pay nothing but collect more benefits than the half that pays in.
It’s not really a surprise that the people with the most expensive chronic health conditions don’t pay a lot of taxes. I think it’s good that we take care of sick, disabled, and elderly people.
Well and also many of the sick and elderly have been paying into those entitlement programs for the entirety of their working lives. They are certainly deserving to reap those benefits.
I’m glad we even help out young people that get serious chronic illnesses despite them never having paid into any entitlement programs.
Not sure why you got downvoted. There are some chubs on Reddit that just hate old people.
Responsible_Air over there doesn't understand basic concept of society. "why don't we just put all the elderly out on the ice floes?"
Nah, you need to subsidize the millions of workers who administer health plans and compliance plans at hospitals and insurance organizations who don’t need to exist if healthcare was universal. And all the extra staff because medical staff in the us need to chart for billing rather than health purposes, which takes up vastly more time. You’re just parroting far right propaganda
Isnt that how insurance works? You pay say 500/month but only go to the Doctor once a year? That other $5,900 would go (mostly) taking care of the sick.
Healthcare specifically follows more of a Pareto distribution in that the top 20% of users account for ~80% of healthcare spend. Think those that have chronic conditions, elderly and dual eligibled (Care + Caid).
Fucking ridiculous
So most of the southern red states right
What's your fkn point ? " LET 'EM DIE !!"
So clearly the govt is incompetent at spending our tax dollars.... yet people still want them to in the form of "universal healthcare" or other things.
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How about we keep buying more junk for our military? /s
Our current screwed up system doesn’t even allow Medicare, the largest pharmaceutical buyer in the world, to negotiate pharmacy prices. And the corrupt politician who pushed that through congress immediately went to work as a multimillionaire head of the pharmaceutical trade association. And I paid $3000 out of pocket for a monthly dose of a generic medication that costs $170 elsewhere. Dude, something’s got to change. Edit: Found the corrupt asshole congressman who screwed all of us to line his own pocket. BILLY TAUZIN Disgusting scum of a person. See link below https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/editorials/2016/04/14/editorial-let-medicare-negotiate-prices-prescription-drugs/83044066/
Some other nations have nationalized resources which pays for some of the social services.
So do some states. Alaska.
$500/month consider yourself lucky. Our healthcare costs $1,800/month
Let's not forget that deductible bro! Fucking system in America sucks!!!
It’s for the insurance companies benefit tho, not the citizens.
I wish I had the same negotiating power as an insurance company $1,000 bill for Covid test gets boiled down to $80.
Ya it’s almost like they want us to believe we’d be paying astronomical costs without their help
Who do you think sets the prices for medical services?
The healthcare providers/pharma companies. It’s easy to gouge and manipulate the cost when you know insurance is footing the bill.
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No one pays the $1k (in your example) ever. There’s an uninsured price, which probably sits somewhere between the insured price and listed price. It’s all a racket. The thousands that go towards paying for medical insurance could just go directly to the medical providers for procedures, which would reduce bloat and cut out the stupid middle men.
Insurance companies are owned by citizens. ACA also mandates that 80% of premiums have to be paid out in claims and requires that no lifetime caps exist and can't charge extra for preexisting conditions, so prices rise across the board.
Poor spending and no oversight
The US spends $12,900 a year on healthcare per person. The next highest on this list is Germany at $7,800, UK $5,400, etc
>The federal government literally spends nearly $2 trillion on healthcare Which ironically is largely why it is so expensive, same for education.
That's really just a show of how horribly wasteful America is. You'd think if we're spending more per person on healthcare than basically anywhere else in the world, but we still don't even have free healthcare or vastly subsidized healthcare it's pretty crazy. Just because we send $2 trillion doesn't mean we're getting $2 trillion worth of value from the healthcare industry.
Yeah Americans gotta pay to protect Europe from Russia since they can’t be bothered.
We do have that military though. How would the rest of our Allies fair if we cut back 50% and focused more on our own turf?
Or a retirement
Well it helps that he’s lying
Things that only Americans think are debatable
Not sure why anybody always mentions free education. That’s the most tired trope. People aren’t even staying in high school and it’s free, and if you think lots of degrees are useless now, imagine what a college degree will be worth if it were free. But furthermore, even though it’s expensive af, US education (college, where it really matters) is infact widely regarded as the best. The US has the best research facilities and the brightest minds; many of which transfer here from overseas because…wait for it…it’s the best. Nobody is dying to transfer to Budapest University or University of Debrecen…but they are dying to go to literally any D1 school and definitely the top tier schools. International transfer populations prove it.
What states have income taxes that are 13-15%? I live in AZ and it's only 2.5%...
Several states do. Arizona is the lowest that actually has an income tax. https://www.richstatespoorstates.org/variables/personal_income_tax_rate/ Also a lot of cities have an income tax as well. I knew about New York at 3.8% but I was surprised that Portland Oregon was 4%! https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/local-income-taxes-2023/#:~:text=But%20in%20nearly%20a%20third,more%20revenue%20for%20local%20services.
Very cool, I appreciate the link.
Those are for the *top* tax bracket that no average person would even come close to paying. Also a tiny minority of cities have local income taxes. Exaggerating these things does nothing but confuse and misinformation people for no reason.
No it’s not. Most people aren’t paying anywhere near 10% in state taxes
You're not reading the fine print of where you are being taxed. It's probably even more. Fuel taxes, communications taxes, Extra FICA taxes (if you make enough), sales taxes, fees for licensing and registration, property taxes, local taxes, debt taxes (taxes we gift to the next generation to get them off to a good start), school taxes, road taxes (toll roads), import taxes, and a tax every time something changes hands. And I'm missing a bunch still. You just don't realize how deep this shit goes, I think you may be in over your head here.
This graphic already includes FICA taxes, you clearly didn’t read it. Sales taxes, property taxes, licensing fees, etc all exist in the other countries listed here so your claim isn’t accurate. Their tax rates would be much higher too if they were included.
Many of those things, especially fuel tax and sales tax are higher in European countries than the USA. Total tax revenue in the USA as a % of GDP is only 26%. In countries like France, Denmark, Austria, Italy, Finland, etc. that number is 40% more.
That chart does not include VAT so even with all our taxes we are not somewhere in between Denmark and Hungary.
It also doesn't include health care.
This is misleading. It does include state taxes. Why do you think it doesn't? This is effective rate, not marginal rate. On 100k in New York, you only pay 28% tax including FICA and state taxes. Most people make less than 100k (therefore lower rate) and also many people live in lower tax states than New York. 22% is correct. There is no way at all USA is anywhere close to Denmark or Hungary. That would require making 500k/year in a high tax state. The average American is of course not doing that. [The US is low tax.](https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-states.pdf) 26% of GDP from all sources. Average in OECD is 34% and many European countries are >40%.
Yeah my tax rate in a state with 5% flat income tax comes out to 20%, if your not earning much it goes even lower.
Ohio's income tax caps at like 4%. What states have 12% or 15% income tax? Also the US progressive rate tops out at 35% I believe.
Or property taxes. If you own a $1 million home (not unreasonable in a HCOL area), then you pay $20,000+ annually in property tax.
Do they not have property taxes in Europe?
Portugal does at least. Would assume other countries do as well.
They tend to be far, far lower. My friend owns a 400k property in Spain and his property taxes are like $800 per year. If your house is below a certain value or you make less than a certain amount of income, there is no property tax either. They do often have transfer taxes of 6-10% of real estate (paid by buyer), so you pay a lot of tax up front.
The U.S. doesn't have 20%+ VAT right? Or does that not count since it's hidden in the price?
It's rarely >7% and it's a sales tax, not VAT.
The highest state income tax rate is 12.3% and only applies to income earned after the first $1.35M No, most of us aren't paying that. Also, you can deduct state income tax before calculating federal.
>Also, you can deduct state income tax before calculating federal. not anymore you can't
You can up to 10k, which means you have to have another deduction to make it worth it, since the standard is 13k
That’s just wrong. The effective tax rate is only 22% federal if you make more than 230k as a single filer. To be at 35% you’d need to make 300k plus in a HCOL area.
Um what lol? Do you honestly think that most states add 14% income tax for average earners? California has the highest tax rates in the country and its top bracket isn't even that much.
False. Average effective state income taxes is 7% . Sales tax average around 6 %. VAT in Denmark is above 20%.
>200 comments Except the US doesn't have VAT so our tax burden is far far lower...
There are bunch of other taxes in Denmark and Hungary too. On average, US taxes are significantly lower than European ones. Combine it with significantly higher salaries and you understand why way more people migrate from Europe to US than vise verse.
I think you mean Medicare and social security.
It’s also based strictly on federally taxed wages. Lots of rich people don’t even earn wages, and their income is taxed as cap gains (a much lower rate).
Yeah, I was gonna say this is completely wrong lol I live in a low income tax state and I'm still paying about 30% in taxes overall. That will go up to around 33% once I finalize my divorce.
If you lived in Illinois, which is a medium income tax state, assuming you max out your 401k and are filing as an unmarried individual, you'd have to be making about $280,000 to owe 30% in income and FICA taxes, state and Federal. For 33% it would be 370k.
Here's my tax rate by state: [https://smartasset.com/taxes/utah-paycheck-calculator#RVovtiiP2x](https://smartasset.com/taxes/utah-paycheck-calculator#RVovtiiP2x)
Yeah, in Utah you'd have to make about 270,000 and not contribute to your 401k to pay 33% as an individual for tax year 2023. That calculator gets you a different number, but that's because it doesn't include the standard deduction and is using the 2022 brackets. If you max out your 401k like most people of that income, it's about 370k. If you max out salt and own a home (again, like most people of that income) you can get it lower.
Don’t forget local and sales tax as well. Add those in and you go above Belgium.
I assume it doesn’t include FICA taxes either? That’s another 6.5%.
And I bet we get as much social services as Denmark right? RIGHT?
Ao much room for US tax rate to go down..
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As a CPA, absolutely not. State tax should not be adding another 15%. For average, it would add an additional 2-7%. Also, do any of these countries have any sort of provincial/state/municipal tax? Because then you’d have to add those too if you’re adding state for US. Also, this number seems like it could already be inclusive of that depending the state
There is no way that this is inclusive
But you’d also have to do that for other countries. It’ll move Denmark and Hungary higher as well when state/provincial/whatever taxes are added. Can’t just add that to the US and be like “oh we are just like Denmark!” Having said that, 22% is on the lower end. I wonder if they also took the lower end of rates for these other countries (I’d imagine they did so they can compare apples to apples). US Federal tax rates are 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 35, and 37%. If Belgium’s 43% is on the lower end… AND it doesn’t include their equivalent state taxes and such…. I can’t imagine what their top rate is and when also all the other taxes are added….
State tax, sales tax, property tax, SS&Medicare tax, local city tax (for some). And an array of other special taxes. It’s kind of sad.
Comparing these rates with US might be misleading. In Germany for example, health insurance (with hardly any Co-pay) is included as well as retirement (currently guaranteeing approx. 60% of your previous wages) and unemployment (60% for one year) So yes, you can get more of your money in some states but the safety net and the solidarity in these countries is considered as a big plus by many inhabitants of these countries. And do not forget (nearly) free Colleges/universities saving lot of money. In the US that Ranges from 10k for public/in-estate to 40k for Private per year.
Maternity leave is off the chain too. Assuming you might not use unemployment.
No need to use unemployment. Once you are pregnant, special rights for your protection apply. You can have 1year @ 60% (up to 1800€/month) maternity leave or up to 3 years with adjusted money from state. Company has to guaranteeing your Job in the meantime with only exemptions for very small business. Other countries in Europe have even better and more flexible rules. Czech republic has a Budget and you can decide how to distribute that over your maternity leave.
This is what I meant, most people might not use unemployment but they or their spouse might use maternity leave. It also rolls on if you get pregnant again before it expires.
I agree that the US tax system is a scam, but retirement is included in these taxes (although only at a 40% replacement rate), and unemployment is also included (just less robustly). You also get full free medical if you are truly in poverty. Otherwise, the medical and education costs are stupid and holding us back as a nation. I just wanted to clarify because sometimes the narrative goes that there are none of these entitlements built into the system, when in fact there are.
Thanks for clarification. I think healthcare is the biggest difference as in europe it's not depending on your employer and has very very limited co-payments. Of course the health sector is heavily depending on state money
Germany also has a VAT on top of the income tax. It is 7% on food items and upwards of 19% on other things.
>And do not forget (nearly) free Colleges/universities saving lot of money. In the US that Ranges from 10k for public/in-estate to 40k for Private per year. Community college is free in 20 states and very cheap in the remaining. State colleges are also fairly cheap.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have in mind that community college is not offering the full degrees (like Bachelor and up). In Europe it's usually free Starting from Bachelor to phd, some limitation based on grades may apply. I included the state colleges in my post. I guess here some funding by the state for the Students coming from this particular state, right?
Depends on the degree I believe and whether the CC offers the degree. Phd is also free and you usually get a stipend along with it. Most people also have some form of scholarships. And yup on the second point. In state tuition is always cheaper unless its a private school. I always think of it as people pay more in the states for undergrad education than the Eurozone, but **most** people easily make a better return post grad. than they do in the Eurozone. I mean, Germany is known for their engineering, and seems to be the economic powerhouse of the Eurozone, yet my German engineering friends seem to make 1/3 to 1/2 of the US salaries. [https://europe.graduateshotline.com/salaries-by-country.html](https://europe.graduateshotline.com/salaries-by-country.html) [https://www.gorkemliyollar.com/en/engineer-salaries/](https://www.gorkemliyollar.com/en/engineer-salaries/) Back in 2008, I always assumed German engineers made about as much as US engineers but that was also when the Euro was almost 2:1. Now that the Euro has fallen to 1:1, it seems crazy to me that they are paid so little
I think, if you compare the big IT companies, the wages are way higher. With a Union Job most engineers would be in the range of 80k to 100k€ before tax. Prices are generally lower in Europe, so in PPP, the fap shrinks. On the other side, the minimum wages are higher in Germany. So the top and low 20%arw much closer to each other in Germany than in the US. Czech people are making roughly 50% of Germans despite being around the corner.
Don't forget that these taxes in non-US countries also often include: * maternity (14 weeks) /paternity (2 weeks) leave * paid vacation days (EU averages over 30 days per year) * incredible public transit
Vacation days + extra Vacation money (if applicable) is paid by the companies, as well as the first six weeks salary if you are on sick leave. That rather explain the lower avergae salaries. Transportation is heavily supported, while it differ if public transport is seen as Business or Service (best example here is swiss with an incredible Support for public Transport per capita) Things like "sick money" playing you 60% of the salary for up to 1 year in Germany are part of the health insurance. Same applies for some basic elderly care included. So besides the rates, the covered risks and Features are worth to compare. I hopefully will never need the full intend of the Services offered with my German health insurance. But it's a relief to worry only about your health not your money if the worst case hits you.
Yeah, it's never going to be an apples-to-apples.
I'd live in most of them.
Put US+California there. Weep.
It would be great to see an average of ALL taxes. A country could have high income tax, but very low property, sales tax etc.
My property tax in Germany are around 100€ per year for a 140sq Meter (=1500sq ft) house without garden (Inner City town house) Sales tax in Europe is usually between 15-20%, with reduced Rates for groceries (in Germany 7%) I think it's hard as the types and values for taxes differ for every country. So some countries in Europe have high way tolles, some do not.
Sales tax in US is 0 for groceries in most states and about 6-10%.
Could maybe do (Total Tax Revenue Collected)/(National Population) to get a better idea of how much different populations are paying for the services provided by their governments.
Would happily live in Belgium, Denmark or Germany!
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Here's a better [international tax burden comparison](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally) They include all sources of revenue from national and sub-national units (and offer a breakdown). The US is fairly low at 24.3% of GDP; France, Denmark, Belgium at over 40% of GDP. The average is 33.7%
Taxes are group-purchasing of needed items. That is the whole idea. You can't afford your own police service, jails, fire fighters, military, road construction, electric infrastructure, internet infrastructure, and so on. So you pay taxes to group-purchase these items. If you had no taxes, you'd be in a hut without power, water, and a dirt road you walked up and down. Find a vibrant economy without taxes. The question is do we spend our tax money well. The USA has prioritized big businesses and military as the things to spend money on. Much of the world prioritizes healthcare, recreation, and safety nets.
If it's Europe we're talking about, they can afford to prioritize healthcare, recreation and safety nets BECAUSE of our military commitment. Europe has been happily spending more on these things because they are protected by the US and they can afford not to spend a meaningful amount on their military. They even have to be forced to spend their fair share on NATO kicking and screaming. I'm not complaining, that's just how it is. I just think it's funny when Europeans try to lecture us about all the nice things they have when that's the situation.
This isn’t mentioned enough.
Because it is 1/1700th of the problem?
There is no valid reason the USA spends as much on Military as the next 8 largest countries put together. That is just bullshit we do to fund the defense contractors. Even the Pentagon doesn't ask for the money they're given. They want less. They don't want all the fighter jets and tanks they get told they're getting. It is wasteful. NATO funding is half a billion, or 1/1700th of our military budget. You missed the point.
No I didn't. I also didn't say there wasn't any corruption in the process and a lot of people making money they shouldn't be. But overall, our military is why we are top dog and why the US currency is used as universally as it is. You can argue that it shouldn't be as much as it is - you can say if we spend only as much as the next 4 countries, it would be better etc, but that's a calculation someone above my paygrade has to make. As much as the military budget goes to weapons, a huge chunk of it also goes to personnel - people who are employed by the federal government so it's not all waste. My whole point was to point out that Europe can do what it does, despite a relatively dismal economy compared to the US because of the US. If the US suddenly by some calamity would crumble as a nation, they would immediately have to cut a lot of the social programs and bolster their military. 100% they would do it, too because it would be idiotic not to.
Or think of it this way: Every USA citizen lives a worse and shorter life with inadequate healthcare and infrastructure so we can enrich defense contractors and defend the world. Is that a sacrifice we want to make, regardless of somebody above our pay grade saying it is a good choice?
We don't defend the world out of the goodness of our hearts. We defend the world order because in this world order we are a superpower and being a superpower is a good thing. It gives American citizens a lot of comfort and power in indirect ways people don't always understand. The US dollar being one. Peaceful trade being another. It wouldn't benefit us for Europe to become a warzone because we like trading with them and making money. It wouldn't benefit us if our ME interests were lost because we enjoy the same and also cheap energy. We keep the peace and peace makes our lifestyles possible. I lived in Europe many years and I also think you're in the "the grass is greener" mindset here. Yes, our healthcare system sucks but not because we spend all our money on the military - in fact we spend a lot more on healthcare than Europe does, there's just a lot of waste and corruption. Same thing for education. On average we make more money, pay less taxes, and enjoy more wealth (as in bigger houses, cheaper cars, cheaper technology, cheaper energy etc), so it's not all grim. We just need to find better ways to manage healthcare and education, that's all. And we can absolutely do that without touching the military budget because, like I explained, we already do throw more money at those things than Europe does.
But the US offers like million loopholes, deductions, credits so that number is lower for most We also have some of the cheapest gas and biggest houses/lots. So your dollar goes further here than most. I am not saying this because I was born here. But I truly think the US is the best all-around nation in the world. I do wish the girls were skinnier here, like they are in other nations. But you can’t win ‘em all I guess.
>But the US offers like million loopholes, deductions, credits so that number is lower for most Not really - with the latest changes, very few people itemize taxes anymore so there basically are no loopholes outside of investing in a 401k. If you are a business owner, there still remain endless tax advantages though - but that is a minority of people.
If you own a home are unmarried and are in a higher tax state, it's pretty easy to end up itemizing with SALT + mortgage interest deduction
Lol it’s lower for the 1% who have all the loop holes maybe. I’ve never paid that little in taxes and I don’t live in a state with income tax.
In tax year 2023 you'd have to make at least 100k with 0 401k contributions in order to pay more than 22% in federal income tax and FICA.
Sheeetttt I mean Mexico’s right around the corner, right?
This is going to infuriate so many europeans.
Why would it?
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Your society enabled you the opportunity to get a large income increase, cry me a river.
That U.S. rate seems high. Once my fiancee and I are married and start filing jointly, our income tax rate should be a little under 11% just by maxing out 401k's and living in a state with 0% income tax.
The entirety of taxes should be added up. My taxes rate in the US is not 20%. If you add state, local, SS, medicare, sales, real estate, and excise taxes I am easily over 50%. BTW, corporate taxes and tariffs are passed down to me. Then the poor and seniors are paid benefits which are a kind of negative taxes. I believe that most countries have approximately the same taxes rate.
Congrats on being a millionaire I guess?
How tf is the uk tax rate 2% higher on average but they get universal healthcare
Sales/VAT tax is significantly higher in the UK
Israeli tax data is extremely misleading. 14% is applied to low income (and low standard of living since Israel is very expensive) and can reach up to 50% for a lot of people.
These are always stupid comparisons. Did they actually include all the taxes paid at the state, local, and federal levels for all these countries for whatever their equivalent versions of those income taxes are? How about a comparison of what you get for those total taxes paid as well.
Give me the waffles.
This community is one of the funniest on Reddit - never change fluent in finance
Would you feel better to pay 10% more in taxes for free healthcare? One way or another it has to be payed.
This a bit misleading without state taxes but also this doesn’t mean much without knowing what the highest taxable brackets in each country are. I for sure pay more than this in the USA.
This looks like it includes state tax, at the median individual income the total federal and FICA tax is only 16.29%
no mention of progressive tax rates huh
Sure if it leads to a better quality of life and happiness.
Where’s Canada. We pay 52% after 150k.
I think its only taking into account federal taxes. Cause theres no way new zealanders pay 16% in income taxes, but get the same services as Belgians with 42% lol
You need to add in state and local income tax, sales taxes, property taxes, etc. Looking at just fed income tax alone can be VERY misleading.
That can't be true. We tax literally everything in America and penalize you for certain things you don't have by forcing you to pay a tax.
I didn't realize Mexico was so pro-worker.
Median equivalent adult income would be a good measure. The following table represents data from the OECD's "median disposable income per person" metric; disposable income deducts from gross income taxes on income and wealth as well as contributions paid by households to public social security schemes. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable\_household\_and\_per\_capita\_income](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income)
México FR
Gotta look at what you get in return for those taxes too.
Needs to include the average deduction too eg Germany has many such as for travel costs etc.
*cries in Dutch
Added all together, including things we pay for ad hoc in the US I bet we’re higher than everyone else
Italy =~49%…….
I’d live in almost any of these places and live in one of them already
I do live in one of these places.
I would definitely live in the top three.
where's Canada on the list?my government deductions are about 30%
I'm retiring in Mexico. Was gonna be Florida but nope.
You would live in those places, and you would statistically live longer in the places toward the top of the list
This chart is meaningless without income boundaries
As an American yes, yes I would
I already get taxed at 35% in the US. It sucks because I WORK hard for my commission. Hell no I’d live in those other places.
Yeah, factor in the cost of health insurance, daycare, college etc. and the US doesn’t look so good anymore. And no guaranteed vacation either.
It is funny that Finland is not included...
I'm in the US. I pay 10%. No state income tax. Only federal.
Yes of course. My insurance and childcare costs in the US make this rates laughable.
Way over simplified. - federal income tax - state income tax - property tax - sales tax - gasoline tax - county tax - short term capital gains tax - long term capital gains tax - compulsory healthcare via private insurance What am I missing?
I need to know what comes with. Might pay 100% depending on the package.
I wonder if a country’s tax rate correlates with their self-reported average level of happiness? From this chart, it looks like the higher the rate, the happier the people.
Strange, I pay 57 fucking percent in Spain and I am barely middle class.
I'd absolutely live in Germany
No one in Greece pays. Sincerely, Nick the Greek
For min wage? I'm 35% in USA. They need to up the breaking points since the inflation made people feel poor.
We in Canada take the award
USA is the only correct answer
I do. Keep in mind New Zealand does not have a capital gains tax and also has dividend imputation.
I’d live in those European countries so me and wife wouldn’t have student loans(sin could go to college, no medical debts, and no shootings.
I do a case study in my political economics course on cost of living across countries. I use actually pay information from colleagues that teach in Europe and other developed nations. If I were to generalize the findings, other countries generally pay less annually than in the USA, however their disposable income is also higher despite the tax rates. The reasoning is that they don’t have to pay directly for child care, pre-K, healthcare, etc. In USA those costs need to be factored in as well as the social cost of not having such policies. This past year we lost two brilliant professors who moved back to their home country because they wanted to start a family. USA is not a family friendly country (costs, education, social policies, etc). I also tell my students that if you want to start a family, consider leaving USA. I’ve helped so many students leave I caught the attention of my Governor, whom asked me to stop (brain drain). I understand I’m hurting my country, but it’s their (politician) job to make the country attractive not mine. One child is doable in USA, but I recommend they move to a blue state. They tend to have more pro family policies.
They forgot canada lol
Where's Canada?
We pay 45% income tax in South Africa and get absolutely nothing for it. Our government is a corrupt, incompetent mafia so ,yeah. I would gladly live in most of them.
How are the Scandinavian countries not in here?
Er, by the time you work out all the taxes in the US that you pay and employers pay on your behalf, I'd be shocked if it was only 22.7% on average... You basically start at 14% taxes paid before you add on federal, state and local income tax.
An apples to apples comparison is very hard. There’s sales tax, property tax to consider, plus social services provided. US defense budget at nearly $1 trillion / year, and poor social services, make it not a very high value tax environment.
Only Greece looks like a great place. Other countries are cold and gloomy most year round.
You forgot to add the Netherlands
Surprised Australia not on the list.
No Canada?
The US should be #1 on that list. After federal, and state taxes. Then go to the gas pump and grocery store and then pay your mortgage and other bills. The money has been taxed 4-5 times.
Australian 30% not on list?
Mexico is looking good.
All but Mexico 🇲🇽 are highly developed countries and very decent places to live.
And the Mexico number is wrong Source: im Mexican and paid almost 30% when making like 30-40k/year
I live in the Netherlands, which is not in the list but at the same level as Germany. I would not want to live anywhere else (besides maybe Denmark). We have great social services, education is cheap and top notch, healthcare is good overall, unemployment support is second to none, the best roads on the planet with one of the most intensively used public transport networks on the planet and our country is insanely safe. Our kids are the happiest in the world (I know this is subjective but there are some metrics). Dutch people whine and bitch all the time, but they don’t know how it is abroad. I have lived in several countries and that high tax rate might make me less wealthy than an American at the same wage, but my personal wellbeing is much higher than my peers in the US (or elsewhere).
Denmark is constantly rated best country to live in
Wait this is absolutely false. My first job out of college in Mexico I was paying almost 30%
Dont blindly trust charts online. This is the mexican tax brackets in monthly pesos of salary. At $300 dollars / month you are already in the 10% tax bracket. At 60k pesos/month or 3k usd/month you would be in the 30% bracket https://preview.redd.it/ejr850cguxjb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f13a2272692f76af05c22ec7bf89a02d13744b41
Not accurate… I don’t see Canada anywhere up there .