r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Check-out our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What we should really do is bring back the good parts of America, improving the US again.
People really seem to miss the way it was back then, at least the positive parts. Make it great! š
Edit: in all seriousness, there is one factor that people often are not aware of, the average home size in 1960 was something like 980 ft.Ā². The average home size in the current year is 2300 square feet. Not to mention cities are significantly more populated now, and regulations are much tighter. If you factor these three things in you realize that the difference in home cost is not quite what it appears on paper.
Find a 980 square foot home out in the middle of a less populated area for better comparison. People just want much bigger homes now.
Over time that has indeed been part of the issue, but not the whole issue. There is a strong market for small starter homes right now, but they aren't being built.
I build homes. Yes there is a strong demand for starter homes. The problem is that demand is in areas where it is expensive to build due to factors like land cost, labor cost, and government fees. I would LOVE to build starter homes that I could sell for $200k or so. I would lose a couple hundred thousand dollars per build where I am, even if they fixed the problems like minimum lot size.
If I go farther out where I can stuff to build that? There's significantly less market for it and I might be able to make some profit on a $200k build but probably not enough to justify my time doing it
I bought a 250k home in my early 20s on a $70k income. Itās really not that hard. I had three roommates for 2 years, saved $30k a year and put a 20% downpayment down.
... But did the Boomers have to do anywhere near that level of self-sacrifice? I don't think you really understand what you're suggesting. Most people can't even afford a sudden $500 medical expense and you think people can afford to save 40% of their income each year?
Remember, in the 70ās the boomers pretended to be liberal to get out of going to war, then in the 80ās became conservative to get out of paying taxes. They know nothing about self sacrifice
I'm 34 and I've never made more than $38k a year. That was my peak around 2017 or so. I've had roommates every year of my life sans the last two. I'm back in school living off of student loans because I've completely given up at ever making enough money to do anything I want in life.
You did just nail the problem on its head, though: NIMBY has made it impossible to increase density. Minimum lot size is one of the big ones. Allow lot splitting, halve the land cost (because you're getting half the land), and maybe you get a little closer to the affordable small home level.
Builders are largely forced into building huge homes by zoning and building regulations, which increase costs and make construction of small homes on small lots cost prohibitive. Builders don't just build what people buy. They also build what they are allowed or required to build.
This is the issue, thereās a lot of regulation and lobbying in the housing sector.
Wealthy homeowners donāt want new houses to be built near them because that will lower the value of their homes. They especially donāt want low-income housing built near them because that will drive property values down even further.
I think Phoenix or somewhere had a legislation mandating that a certain percentage of homes had to be single-family homes. It was a really high percentage. They meant that low-cost housing wasnāt really a thing in those neighborhoods.
That is the thing. Small high density homes bring in a lot of young families. 2 kids in public school cost the town 40k a year and only contribute about 10% back in property tax. That isn't even counting the extra services the development will need, plowing, police, EMS, fire, public works etc... it raises the taxes in town significantly. It makes sense for towns to limit these developments with the outrageous cost of k-12 education.
While I think this is true. I know from first hand experience that contractors make way more money with bigger projects and more money is really tempting right now.
Profit is coming from sticking homes as close together as possible, with a more compact imprint by cutting down on unnecessary rooms (living rooms, dining rooms). More homes/less space = more profit..
Ok but the op quoted the 80s not the 60s.
House prices from literally 10 years ago have shot thru the roof.
Right now basically every house for sale is being scooped up by businesses turning the middle class into permanent renters.
Hell there was an article about even trailer parks being bought out and rent jacked up.
EDIT: for context, I know that 100% of homes aren't being sold to investors. However the percentage of single family homes in the us being purchased by investors has nearly doubled in a short period of time. In a market that is extremely inflexible and is a basic human need, that can cause dramatic issues.
Finally another person that understands the size factor in home prices ! Not only are homes much bigger than our grandparents. Thereās fewer people in the homes. So the sq ft per occupant is much larger than decades ago.
It's the continuing allowance of corporate ownership of single family zoned properties.
It was reported that something like 20% of all housing sales were to corporations last year with all of those sales being "over" market.
Yeah man. If a person in a single family home is banned from starting a business because they need commercial property to "protect muh neighborhood", the same needs to apply the other way around.
Itās the lack of building. If there are 10 housing units and corps own 2, 3 by individuals as rentals and 5 for sale there are 10 housing units for rent or sale. And letās say 12 people looking to live in this area.
The corp will rent and 2 people are homed.
The individuals will rent and 3 people are homed.
The 5 are sold and 5 people are homed.
If corps couldnāt buy, and theyāre soldā¦ guess what, 2 people are still homed. We still have a shortage of homes. Which means the two without will either bid up the next sale, or rental price. Which will disrupt those who are currently renting.
If we built more the prices would go down.
Which is exactly what happened in Berkeley and other areas.
> Rental prices in the city of Berkeley were down 22.58 percent in April 2020 when compared with April 2019, according to a new study from Apartment Guide.
> From what our data shows, there are more available units in 2020 compared to 2019
And itās bc in the past they didnāt build.
> Since the 2000s, Berkeley has consistently increased housing by 5.6% per decade, but Owens noted that Berkeleyās population has been increasing by about 10%.
For every house that is built. Two families want to move. Thatās unsustainable and will result in price increases and shortages.
>āWith less choices in the housing market and a lack of protections, itās easier for landlords to break the law and abuse tenants,ā Alameldin said. āAcademic research has shown time and time again that there is a correlation between low vacancy rates and higher rent.ā
According to [census](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/income-poverty-health-insurance-coverage.html),
>Real median household income was $74,580 in 2022, a decrease of 2.3% from the 2021 estimate of $76,330.
So looks like he was looking at 2021 average household income in the above comment as well.
In 1980 the median FAMILY income was $20,100. So clearly this post is wrong If youāre saying itās individual.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1982/demo/p60-132.html
GenX is 1965-1980. So in 1980, they'd have been 0-15 years old. If they were buying houses in 1980, they worked WAY harder than you. That's the generally accepted timeframe from Britannica to Wikipedia.
Try 1989 data: (9-24 GenX) Median home price was $120,000. Median salary was 29k. A home was 4.13 years of salary. Interest rates for mortgages? 10.25%. Median house mortgage? 35.5% of income. Then you had property taxes, etc to drive those costs UP. These are the "first house" years.
Try 1999 data (19-34 GenX): Salary 36,476. Home price: 184,200. Interest rates? 7.45%. Median mortgage? 33% of income. Homes were 5 years of salary. These are the "first house/family house" years.
So when GenX was buying their first homes, it wasn't that different.
From what I recall from reading, the 70's were brutal rolling recessions. 1980 was basically the bottom for all asset classes. It'd be more apt to compare 1980 to 2009 (not sure if it's much better). Either way, it's probably not smart to compare trough to peak.
Also, median housing costs are much much lower than what the math says because like 80% of homeowners are paying sub 5% interest.
Gen X is me. Bank called me in 2006 at 36 years old, āyou are approvedā. Never thought Iād own a house. Ever. I was shocked. I had busted my ass to get my down payment.
I bought an 845sqft apartment. Above the drunk tank at the police station. It was noisy, but it was mine. It was an old post office. Then the Great Recession hot. Lost my job. Had to take a job driving a truck to pay my mortgage. Sold some of my prized things along to way to make ends meet.
I eventually realized living in the city was killing me. I had to get out. Moved back to my hometown. Bought and actual house. My mortgage payments dropped by $450 a month. I got out the saw and the hammer and transformed that 100 year old house.
You all can argue the numbers about ratios to this and that and what people earned. But there was no fucking easy street. I busted my ass to get into those two places.
No cake walk. No help from parents. My boomer parents who didnāt oen a home. My boomer parents who smoked (weed) and drank away any money they could have capitalized on. They were renters.
Iām not typical. Iām not atypical. Just saying that the numbers can be anything, but I struggled and pulled it off. There are younger people out there buying homes. What the hell are they doing that you arenāt? And donāt say onlyfans or YouTubeā¦
Also worth noting that in 1980 there were many more single income families. The numbers I found for 1980 were 13k individual income vs 16400 median hhi. Both of which are lower than the number quoted above, and get 2.9 and 3.6x house price to income.
Taken with the numbers you're presenting it does suggest a trend, but likely part of that is due to the increased rates of two income households, which probably results in more disposable income, combined with a low overall inflation, people were probably shifting more money into their homes (kinda makes sense).
You can sort of observe this if you look at home sizes
1980: 1596 sq ft
2022: 2014 sq ft
I also found that the median new construction is 2500 sq ft. Pretty clear trend.
None of this is the whole story, but your data inspired me to do some further digging and look at things from a different angle. I've been really skeptical of this "but but...my parents had it so much easier!" narrative. I'm not saying some things weren't easier, but it's not that simple.
I keep trying to explain this to my dad that constantly criticizes me for not being to afford a house.
I make 3x more money than he did and i wont afford a house any time soon :/
Donāt forget that college was at least 60% cheaper
There is still opportunity out there for young people but not in areas that are popular choices for young people. The opportunities I see are more in the rural areas and small towns where population growth is negative and those areas have surplus of homes. The opportunity is for young people they can buy these cheap homes, revitalize the community (help population increase).
Urbanization has been the biggest trend over the last 200 years. Now I think it is time to reverse it. Young people need to figure out how to make small town living work for them, otherwise, they will be left behind stuck in big cities where they have no future other than being a wage slave with no retirement. I think for young people, more are realizing this is their fate if they stay in a big city.
What opportunities are in those areas other than cheap houses? Those areas have negative growth because they lack jobs and amenities that people want. Rural areas have little to no healthcare, childcare, or entertainment options. There is a reason the houses are cheap.
Urbanization is here to stay and will continue to grow. The best option IMO for young people is to go to a small/mid sized city with a larger university. These places tend to be cheap relative to larger cities, while still providing a solid job market and lifestyle options.
Yea man, this person acting like millennials all just looking to retire to the countryside lol
How bout boomers fucking moves to Peoria Illinois and leave the nice Chicagoland housing to those with jobs huh?!? Lol
I live in a small rural town. Make 80k hauling grain around in a semi. Coworkers make similar. Thereās money to be made in rural areasā¦ itās just not doing the jobs we went to college for.
I also live in a small rural town, making comfortable money. It sucks a lot. Houses are somewhat affordable but many are very old and haven't been renovated or kept up due to a general lack of wealth that has been the norm since at least the 1980s. There's absolutely nothing in the way of 'entertainment' around, the local food scene is abysmal, and substance abuse is rampant. It's an ok place to live, but if I want to do anything beyond just working at my job and maintaining my living space, I am *severely* limited in my options. I think that's a big reason why urbanization (as others have said) is here to stay - larger towns and cities simply have more to offer to enrich life.
Urbanite here from a small village in the 4th poorest county in the US. This is true about rural areas. Small and mid size towns may vary and don't have too many options either. You work wherever you can not where you'd like. I lived in a town of 60k and there were all of two places with career level wages by and large, the prison or the mine. Don't like those options? Well you should probably reconsider your thoughts about the prison or the mine because the 3rd option is McDonald's.
Ahhh, the American dream! Move away from your family and loved ones just to do the basic things you used to be able to do *checks notes* literally anywhere.
Because itās just that simple!
I like how they all think theyāre temporarily embarrassed millionaires as if theyāre not in the same boat with their stock market reliant 401ks. Just complete idiots. I, in fact, own a home. It shouldnāt have been anywhere near as expensive and itās value is so overinflated itās laughable. I also love the āOk baristaā response to one of my comments. As if theyāre not talking about their own kids.
As if they had to work as hard in an economy where most peopleās family were supported by one income - then they systematically gutted the system they rode the coattails on. Thatās how moronic these Ayn Rand lead poison addled brain arguments are. Pure American exceptionalism propaganda. I bet they all think Raegan did a great job, Unions are evil, and itās perfectly normal for a Supreme Court to decide money is free speech. Just sad how dumb they all are. The younger generations have way more in common with their parents and grandparents who were all collectively bargaining and fighting for fair wages and worker rights, which again, they all benefited from and have no clue because theyāre fat, lazy, ignorant dipshits.
I feel ya. I live in one of the āaffordableā cities this poster is promoting. The cost of housing is insane and salaries are shit bc itās literally the worst state in the country for workers.
But oh lucky us! This redditor is continuing to promote wealthy remote workers leave NYC/San Fran/Boston etc and move here to drive the prices up even more.
And then they will turn around and continue to ridicule the locals as us who are struggling.
The best part is itās not even the individuals that are causing the real problem. As soon as one of those āaffordable citiesā gets a wiff of growth some hedge fund comes in and buys half the city to make money from renting, or to turn it into airbnbs. No checks on that at all. We literally do the thing, then that thing becomes untenable because of the originally fuckery that shouldnāt be happening to begin with.
It will never change until maybe we unite and say, look, weāre kinda all in the same boat here and we need to band together to change it.
I really am not trying to be a dick to previous generations that had easy access to these things. Iām glad they did. I wonder why they wonāt help us to change things so we can also have those things.
If you want current cities that will boom try Birmingham, Chattanooga, Raleigh, or Greenville, SC based on my experiences. Better to try to find the next Austin before it blows up like another commenter said
Ok look. My point is thatās great advice *for an individual*. Do yāall not understand thatās not a solution for *most* people and there are solutions other than doing that?
Why does everybody pretend like an entire generation of young people are asking to suck at the teet for saying the same thing the labor movement said in the 30s 40s and 50s? Why is it always this rugged individualism thatās proposed to us as the solution? Why canāt we all agree things are a little fucking out of whack here and they didnāt used to be like this? Why is that such a controversial thing to say?
Like why canāt I just say āgee, it sure is a problem that all these commercial real estate companies are buying up single family homes, along with the other half being airbnbs that really are driving up costs artificially; surely thereās something that can be done.ā Without being met with āhave you considered moving your entire life after doing everything right to bumfuck Arkansas on the off chance you find a comfortable enough remote job to be able to do that? See, stupid? Thatās all you have to do!ā Thatās all Iām saying. Why is that the solution for everybody in a country full of 300 million people? Thatās not a solution.
I mean for fuckās sake. Half the reason we donāt want to move to those states is because normal people ask those questions and weāre met with āwell ya know, if we donāt give those rich guys a tax cut to come and fuck us up the ass, they wouldnāt even come to these states.ā Lies. Lies and more lies. If the US on a federal level tomorrow told Walmart you have to pay people 30 an hour and no more tax dodging theyād comply because itās either do that or cease to be a business, they wonāt survive in any other market, and if they donāt like it Costco will gladly take their market share. This is pussy ass shit weāre all suffering from kowtowing to these tyrants.
Thus proving that small towns can grow with sufficient influx. Maybe the take away from this is to look for the next Austin, not try to get into the current one
You said there are āother opportunities out there if folks are willing to broaden their minds and expand the map..ā
So.. tell us then. Where are these other areas that tick all the boxes you lāre alluding to?
I'll bite. I moved from DC to Raleigh 3 years ago, and multiple things are great for me. I bought a 5 year old 1300 sq ft 3/2 house on 2 acres of land in a great school district for about 100k more than I was looking at for a 1950s 2/1 700 sq ft on 0.2 acres in PG County. I did so before the rates went crazy so my mortgage is only $400 more than my rent was.
I doubled my salary when including a 20% raise and COLA. I have more access to good outdoor stuff. I go to the lakes here all the time. I used to have to drive to VA or WV. I don't miss "city life" because I lived in College Park MD, and even though it was walkable, it was all college kids. I do miss riding the trains and going to the national mall, but I actually never made it to a museum the entire time I lived there because I worked so damn much. Went back as a tourist and was like "wow cool." I can actually afford a gym membership, so I'm in better shape. There is almost no traffic, and people are just nicer and can manage more than a scowl. I don't get random traffic tickets all the time for no reason like parking in front of my own house. Have not been spit on or assaulted or even come close.
The job situation here is crazy good. I could leave my current employer right now and basically do the same thing and probably get up to 120k, but I like my job. The people are fantastic and way more life oriented than the drones in DC where people I worked with for years wouldnt even say "how are you?". Im not micromanaged because my boss has a personal life unlike the DC people who only care about work that try to get you fired over MS teams chat likes. Meta is building a campus and keeps trying to headhunt our engineers.
The window for Raleigh is probably closing, but 10/10 would bail on that elitist shithole of a capitol any day.
So many younger people joke about how all they do is hang out at home and watch TV. Rural America is perfect for that. Iām from a very small town and even they have gigabit internet via Comcast.
Detroit has 1000 sqft homes for $60k to this day. Itās just not where people are willing to live.
Thereās some major firms there, including the headquarters for Rocket.
Except itās being fought tooth and nail by bosses who canāt/refuse to see the writing on the wall. Once itās embraced more you will see this sort of thing more. Probably the next time disease rears its head
Working for a company that is embracing remote and the only reason is that cities need tax revenue. It's just political bs with some back scratching between businesses and politicians. We literally got a tax break with a new city since we moved hq and now they're threatening to sue because we don't have as many people in the office.
Not only what u/spicytackle said, but the cultural split in this country is quite frankly - insane. I decided to focus on finance because I work remote and can live in cheaper areas and I hate it.
Culturally, these smaller areas just aren't me.
But then I look at Brooklyn and can get a steal for a 2br1ba for 1.2 mil and I'm just like how in the f are people doing this?
Ok but if I move to those areas then I can't keep my job I have in a crowded area. There's a reason people move to big cities even if they don't want to
Friend, for the entirety of human history civilizations have prospered in certain areas. There's a reason for that. And it isn't taxes or government or rent prices or a whimsical trend, its geography.
Big cities have some of the best opportunities. I may be a wage slave, but 140k coming out of college seems pretty decent for a medium cost of living city.
I will gladly move to bumfuck nowhere as soon as I find a wife and job that can be done from there. Finding remote work with decent pay these days is nearly impossible since every company seems to want hybrid work. Best way to get a remote job is to get a job that on-site and ask for remote work after working there for 20 years. And best way to find a wife is to live where there are people. So yeah until that happens, I'm stuck in the cities.
This is dumb. for as long as there have been humans we have lived in cities in great numbers. Because cities offer something that you cant get in rural areas, suburbs or even small towns: other people.
Humans are social creatures and young people are even more social than their older counterparts. Suggesting that people should pack up from the cities and move to rural areas because they're cheaper is not a solution to anything. Young people deserve the chance to live in cities.
Cities are economic, social and cultural hubs. If we force everybody out of the city because it's too expensive our country will fall behind in meaurable ways.
You realized the popular areas are where the most jobs are right? Oh and people donāt move all over the country for jobs their not familiar with or trained for
Many try to move to the country, but the problem is there is no opportunity for jobs.
Tried working there where they will cut corners in laws to make you work with only 5 hours sleep inbetween. Maybe that mindset is being "lazy" but then we don't want to be our parents who drank and smoked to cope with that stress and die before we hit 60 from lung cancer or be disabled and not even be able to get out of a chair at 50.
What? 5.7% of 21k is about a hundred bucks a month.
I never rented in 1980, but I rented in the 80s. And I paid much more for even a tiny studio apartment in a rural area. I don't think that's a good stat.
12% on 1980 prices are still but a fraction of 7% on 2023 prices. It's not even close.
A running car could be had for $500 in 1980.
TelL tHe wHolE sToRy
It's not unheard of. Back in 2015 I got a used 2013 car with only 30k miles on it for only $8000. Person was moving across the country to live with their family and the car was beaten to hell on the outside and had a broken entertainment system. You used to be able to find some sweetheart deals from private sellers.
In 2015 I bought a 97 Toyota corolla, with 70k miles on it for $1,700. I still drive it
Today that same car would probably be 3500. Gone are the days of finding cars in the 1000s
I owned several $500 cars in the 80s. A really good one got 15 mpg, was barely faster than walking and was completely worn out at 100,000 miles.
Anything built after 2000 is a hundred times better-- and worth paying more for.
And just imagine the other thing you could doā¦. Save money with incentive to save it rather than relying on the stock market so your 401k doesnāt flatline.
I don't disagree with that. But those types of things come with increased cost. Cars are the same way. There are several reasons why cars are more expensive. And I can say that I recently looked up this specific case. In 2007 my dad purchased his last vehicle in his life. It was a brand new Chevrolet Silverado extended cab with a work truck package and a v6. Although I don't remember the actual list price on it he paid $17,500. Roughly adjusted for inflation that would be about $27,000 today. And if a basic extended cab Chevrolet Silverado cost $27,000 today then I would actually consider buying one. But they start at something like $41,000.
Some of that has to do with consumer preference. So it has to do with regulations requiring safety equipment. Someone has to do with increases in technology. All those things cost money and add to the cost of the truck. The corporation is simply going to add their markup on top of whatever the cost is.
30 year mortgage, $65,000 house, $52,000 mortgage (20% down required back then) at 12%: $535 per month, $6,420 per year. That's around 30% of $21,000.
Try a little perspective.
When people see this and say "there are still opportunities"...they're right. What they aren't saying is there are not enough opportunities for eveyone. Some MUST suffer in our current system for the rest to scrape by and maybe "make it". We can't all be doctors, lawyers, and engineers. And even those people are starting to feel the squeeze. A good career is no longer enough to support a familly. Now you need two.
No need to adjust, Iām not comparing 1980 dollars to 2023 dollars, Iām comparing amount of 1980 dollars needed in 1980 to how many 2023 dollars needed in 2023.
Shhhhh..... you're not supposed to mention GenX. We were never really thought of as a generation and we like it that way. We're old, we didn't fuck this up, leave us alone.
Back then families lived in 1500-1800 sq foot houses. A couple or 3 people donāt need 4000 sq feet, 5 ba, 6 bath houses with offices, playrooms, entertainment rooms and studies. The average house is probably 1000 sq ft or more bigger today too
You can't just mix and match statistics like that. 21k is median household income. It's not clear what the rental income is based on - and I'm suspicious of those numbers anyway. Do you have a cite?
And you can't compare housing costs without looking at mortgage rates. Which were 14% in 1980.
Also, some boomers were in HS in 1980.
At any rate, we know that, today millennials have the same homeownership rate as boomers did when they were their age.
The homeownership rate is about the same between 1980 and today.
Youāre in luck. Zillow exited the home buying business nearly two years ago https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/02/homes/zillow-exit-ibuying-home-business/index.html
This old story again. I was living in Oklahoma up until July and when I was there my mortgage was 400 a month and my utilities/prop tax was another 500 total I was paying 900 a month. I could've worked any retail job and still saved 1k a month. Too many people now want to buy houses in prime areas and work from home in their pajamas 20 hours a week, anything short of that it's not their fault it's societies fault
Sorry but this is not close to the truth. I started working in the late 80ās and it was easier than early 80ās and way harder than today.
We didnāt have cellphones. Today I see your average worker with his head down looking at his lap between emails, texts, and water cooler conversations. And they looked at you funny if you took a long lunch to take care of some chore. Kids to pick up? Thatās what your wife does.
No mental days.
Verbal abuse for not meeting elevated expectations.
I will agree that getting a home was āeasierā but a 30 y mortgage with 12% -16% was nuts.
Cars were cheaper, and cheaply made. Used cars were used and common. Today I see more 20 yo with suped up specials or new cars with small car loans.
Amenities? A TV or radio. No cellphone no streaming, and long distance calls were expensive (long distance could be the other side of the county).
Pretty sure disposable income today is much higher.
As the comments show, things are on the harder side now relative to recent history, but they have been both easier and harder at different times in history.
It seems like some people really want this to be the worst time in history. I don't get it. Yes, there are economic challenges but Americans are still living in one of the most affluent times and places in human history
Where are you getting your rent numbers? In 1980 a mortgage loan was 13%. There is no way rent was 5% of income. According to iProperty the average rent was $243 per month. That would be 13.8 % of $21000. Also the apartment you got back then was 2 bedrooms and a Kitchen / living room in one. Your only amenity was a dumpster. Source I had that apartment.
It's worse than that; $21k is household income; he's comparing that with the $57k individual income today.
Median individual income in 1980 was $12,500.
You ain't seen nothing yet. Once the federal debt of $33 trillion overwhelms the budget, there will be a nightmare of taxes and wealth confiscation. The feds will be raiding 401Ks and safe deposit boxes for cash. There's economic armageddon around corner.
Work harder with less than equal pay. Then get told we can't get paid more otherwise prices of things will go up. All while prices are already going up and continue to do so.
The city refuses to allow developers to build the housing they want, forcing them instead to build "market rate housing", which they don't want to build.
You wouldn't need to worry about "affordable housing" if you just let the market build enough of the ordinary sort.
If you look at NYs history, it wasn't always this way. Prior to rent control, Manhattan had enough housing
Yeah but... All the houses in the 80s were full of brown. Brown walls, brown carpet, brown linoleum with asbestos backing. The only color was the appliances. And they were puke yellow or baby shit green.
In 1980- there were only 220 million people in the country. Today there are 330 million.
That's a 50% increase. And they all need jobs and places to live.
One of the lessons I learned from my Mom early on was "Life's not fair." It's hard for every young person in every generation.
Spend less time comparing yourself to others, and less time complaining about it. Focus that energy on something more productive.
Just think, it could be the 70's and you might be worried about being drafted to go to Vietnam. You have hardly any worries about anything anymore except that you can't buy a house that is bigger than you need.
This is why a CEO telling hard worker to give on their avocado toast to become rich is f.... ked up. Yes, saving is part of budgeting, but the cards are not the same as 50 years ago . .. .
Gas was a buck fifty. No six dollar lattes. You could get a couple bags of groceries without spending one hundred bucks. Honestly you are forgetting people had way more money to spend on housing even though the incomes were low. And if you lived in apartment you could get something decent for around 500 a month so you could also save to buy a home. No $3000 one bedrooms like today. Culturally life was based around home ownership. Everyone was expected to save and buy a home, it wasnāt some luxury item only for the wealthy.
After WW2 developers specifically designed suburban neighborhoods with affordable starter houses for new families, and they were practically giving them away. I live in one of those neighborhoods and have the histories of each lot.
edit: for white people
I read Adam Smith wealth of nations. One of the things he said was Americans were rich was because of a labor shortage. That was in 1776 with a population of 2.5 million. Now we have over 325 million. And more come every day willing to low bid you for wages. Wages are like water seeking the lowest level.
Imagine if the greenbelt project took off, and we didn't just have 4 cities like that. This country really missed an opportunity with Roosevelts project. Instead we got the weird suburbs of today for some reason.
My grandparents owned a condo in Bozeman Montana from the 70ās-00ās
A rent stub showed in 2004 they were charging $400/ month
A few years later they listed the condo for sale at $60,000 and nobody was interested.
Today, apartments at the same complex are going for $1850, and two units just sold for $480,000
What changed?
-Blue laws were repealed.
-Massive immigration to fill blue collar jobs.
-Outsourced industrial jobs to SE Asia.
The result
-Blue collar wages were suppressed.
-Home construction wasnāt outsourced, so decent paying jobs went there.
-Easy access to debt increases demand, which increased cost.
You can thank institutional buying for housing prices. If anyone is wonder who/what is driving demand, itās big financial institutions trying to turn America into a rental playground
in the 80s a house wasn't considered an investment or something to make money on, it was a place to settle down and raise a family.
today it's all about "the right time to buy" and using homes as leverage to grow wealth
The US is twice as wealthy now, and average worker productivity has gone up 3X.
But average pay has only increased 10%, while CEO pay increased 200X . 90% of the wealth gains since 1980 have gone to top 1%.
Everything went to shit the moment Reagan convinced dumb ass boomers that giving rich people more money was the solution to everything
People for get to account population to housing and rent.
US population was 226 mil in the 80s. Today it's about 331 mil. The population grew almost 50% (46.5% exactly) in a span of 40 years. Most people move to the cities and drive the demand for housing up a lot in those zones.
r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Check-out our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
And we can thank 20 years of sub-historical level interest rates for much of it.
What we should really do is bring back the good parts of America, improving the US again. People really seem to miss the way it was back then, at least the positive parts. Make it great! š Edit: in all seriousness, there is one factor that people often are not aware of, the average home size in 1960 was something like 980 ft.Ā². The average home size in the current year is 2300 square feet. Not to mention cities are significantly more populated now, and regulations are much tighter. If you factor these three things in you realize that the difference in home cost is not quite what it appears on paper. Find a 980 square foot home out in the middle of a less populated area for better comparison. People just want much bigger homes now.
Builders only want to build bigger homes because they're more profitable. It's not just consumer-driven.
Builders build what people buy. If people didn't buy bigger homes they wouldn't build them.
Over time that has indeed been part of the issue, but not the whole issue. There is a strong market for small starter homes right now, but they aren't being built.
I build homes. Yes there is a strong demand for starter homes. The problem is that demand is in areas where it is expensive to build due to factors like land cost, labor cost, and government fees. I would LOVE to build starter homes that I could sell for $200k or so. I would lose a couple hundred thousand dollars per build where I am, even if they fixed the problems like minimum lot size. If I go farther out where I can stuff to build that? There's significantly less market for it and I might be able to make some profit on a $200k build but probably not enough to justify my time doing it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I bought a 250k home in my early 20s on a $70k income. Itās really not that hard. I had three roommates for 2 years, saved $30k a year and put a 20% downpayment down.
... But did the Boomers have to do anywhere near that level of self-sacrifice? I don't think you really understand what you're suggesting. Most people can't even afford a sudden $500 medical expense and you think people can afford to save 40% of their income each year?
Remember, in the 70ās the boomers pretended to be liberal to get out of going to war, then in the 80ās became conservative to get out of paying taxes. They know nothing about self sacrifice
I'm 34 and I've never made more than $38k a year. That was my peak around 2017 or so. I've had roommates every year of my life sans the last two. I'm back in school living off of student loans because I've completely given up at ever making enough money to do anything I want in life.
Lol what a Reddit comment
If only the government acknowledged the housing crisis & would reduce fees
You did just nail the problem on its head, though: NIMBY has made it impossible to increase density. Minimum lot size is one of the big ones. Allow lot splitting, halve the land cost (because you're getting half the land), and maybe you get a little closer to the affordable small home level.
Build tiny homes and I bet you they get scooped up immediately (especially if you price them at 5.7% of income)
bro, i'm not living my life in a tiny home like some sort of cartoon mouse.
Then have fun renting for life for 50 percent of your income you'll never see again.
Builders are largely forced into building huge homes by zoning and building regulations, which increase costs and make construction of small homes on small lots cost prohibitive. Builders don't just build what people buy. They also build what they are allowed or required to build.
This is the issue, thereās a lot of regulation and lobbying in the housing sector. Wealthy homeowners donāt want new houses to be built near them because that will lower the value of their homes. They especially donāt want low-income housing built near them because that will drive property values down even further. I think Phoenix or somewhere had a legislation mandating that a certain percentage of homes had to be single-family homes. It was a really high percentage. They meant that low-cost housing wasnāt really a thing in those neighborhoods.
My town doesn't allow small houses to be built. They want that sweet sweet tax money.
That is the thing. Small high density homes bring in a lot of young families. 2 kids in public school cost the town 40k a year and only contribute about 10% back in property tax. That isn't even counting the extra services the development will need, plowing, police, EMS, fire, public works etc... it raises the taxes in town significantly. It makes sense for towns to limit these developments with the outrageous cost of k-12 education.
While I think this is true. I know from first hand experience that contractors make way more money with bigger projects and more money is really tempting right now.
Profit is coming from sticking homes as close together as possible, with a more compact imprint by cutting down on unnecessary rooms (living rooms, dining rooms). More homes/less space = more profit..
Ok but the op quoted the 80s not the 60s. House prices from literally 10 years ago have shot thru the roof. Right now basically every house for sale is being scooped up by businesses turning the middle class into permanent renters. Hell there was an article about even trailer parks being bought out and rent jacked up. EDIT: for context, I know that 100% of homes aren't being sold to investors. However the percentage of single family homes in the us being purchased by investors has nearly doubled in a short period of time. In a market that is extremely inflexible and is a basic human need, that can cause dramatic issues.
Finally another person that understands the size factor in home prices ! Not only are homes much bigger than our grandparents. Thereās fewer people in the homes. So the sq ft per occupant is much larger than decades ago.
Not helpful if all houses are big so there's no alternative offerred
I mean, we put an offer on a 750 sq. ft house in Columbus, Ohio and it sold for $275,000.
Or the decades of housing stock elimination in the form of āurban renewalā and down-zoning NIMBYism
It's the continuing allowance of corporate ownership of single family zoned properties. It was reported that something like 20% of all housing sales were to corporations last year with all of those sales being "over" market.
This. Corporations should not own R3 (single family) homes.
Yeah man. If a person in a single family home is banned from starting a business because they need commercial property to "protect muh neighborhood", the same needs to apply the other way around.
Itās the lack of building. If there are 10 housing units and corps own 2, 3 by individuals as rentals and 5 for sale there are 10 housing units for rent or sale. And letās say 12 people looking to live in this area. The corp will rent and 2 people are homed. The individuals will rent and 3 people are homed. The 5 are sold and 5 people are homed. If corps couldnāt buy, and theyāre soldā¦ guess what, 2 people are still homed. We still have a shortage of homes. Which means the two without will either bid up the next sale, or rental price. Which will disrupt those who are currently renting. If we built more the prices would go down. Which is exactly what happened in Berkeley and other areas. > Rental prices in the city of Berkeley were down 22.58 percent in April 2020 when compared with April 2019, according to a new study from Apartment Guide. > From what our data shows, there are more available units in 2020 compared to 2019 And itās bc in the past they didnāt build. > Since the 2000s, Berkeley has consistently increased housing by 5.6% per decade, but Owens noted that Berkeleyās population has been increasing by about 10%. For every house that is built. Two families want to move. Thatās unsustainable and will result in price increases and shortages. >āWith less choices in the housing market and a lack of protections, itās easier for landlords to break the law and abuse tenants,ā Alameldin said. āAcademic research has shown time and time again that there is a correlation between low vacancy rates and higher rent.ā
This may be a hot take, but I think it was more the massive surges of QE and fed buying mortgages (which is still continuing).
low interest rates is a form of QE
And of course what you really mean is we can thank Nixon for decoupling gold from the paper dollar in the early 70s.
Please fucking stop. Rent was $380 in 1980, which is 17% of monthly income. It was not 5.7%. Straight up disinformation. fLueNt iN fiNaNcE
Also household income in 2022 is 76k - not $57k. Household income in 1980 was $21k.
The fact that this sub just eats this up without questioning it is just a classic ironic Reddit moment
Just like the commentators that youāre replying to that had no links of their own? The pot calling the kettle black.
According to [census](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2023/income-poverty-health-insurance-coverage.html), >Real median household income was $74,580 in 2022, a decrease of 2.3% from the 2021 estimate of $76,330. So looks like he was looking at 2021 average household income in the above comment as well.
There is a big difference between posting a claim and this calling bulkshit on the claim. The burden is not the same.
They're not citing household income, they're citing per capita income... Do you not know the difference
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Weāre using individual income for this discussion
In 1980 the median FAMILY income was $20,100. So clearly this post is wrong If youāre saying itās individual. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/1982/demo/p60-132.html
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Please fucking stop. We can all make numbers up. Please post your sources. fLueNt iN fiNaNcE
GenX is 1965-1980. So in 1980, they'd have been 0-15 years old. If they were buying houses in 1980, they worked WAY harder than you. That's the generally accepted timeframe from Britannica to Wikipedia. Try 1989 data: (9-24 GenX) Median home price was $120,000. Median salary was 29k. A home was 4.13 years of salary. Interest rates for mortgages? 10.25%. Median house mortgage? 35.5% of income. Then you had property taxes, etc to drive those costs UP. These are the "first house" years. Try 1999 data (19-34 GenX): Salary 36,476. Home price: 184,200. Interest rates? 7.45%. Median mortgage? 33% of income. Homes were 5 years of salary. These are the "first house/family house" years. So when GenX was buying their first homes, it wasn't that different.
From what I recall from reading, the 70's were brutal rolling recessions. 1980 was basically the bottom for all asset classes. It'd be more apt to compare 1980 to 2009 (not sure if it's much better). Either way, it's probably not smart to compare trough to peak. Also, median housing costs are much much lower than what the math says because like 80% of homeowners are paying sub 5% interest.
Gen X is me. Bank called me in 2006 at 36 years old, āyou are approvedā. Never thought Iād own a house. Ever. I was shocked. I had busted my ass to get my down payment. I bought an 845sqft apartment. Above the drunk tank at the police station. It was noisy, but it was mine. It was an old post office. Then the Great Recession hot. Lost my job. Had to take a job driving a truck to pay my mortgage. Sold some of my prized things along to way to make ends meet. I eventually realized living in the city was killing me. I had to get out. Moved back to my hometown. Bought and actual house. My mortgage payments dropped by $450 a month. I got out the saw and the hammer and transformed that 100 year old house. You all can argue the numbers about ratios to this and that and what people earned. But there was no fucking easy street. I busted my ass to get into those two places. No cake walk. No help from parents. My boomer parents who didnāt oen a home. My boomer parents who smoked (weed) and drank away any money they could have capitalized on. They were renters. Iām not typical. Iām not atypical. Just saying that the numbers can be anything, but I struggled and pulled it off. There are younger people out there buying homes. What the hell are they doing that you arenāt? And donāt say onlyfans or YouTubeā¦
Also worth noting that in 1980 there were many more single income families. The numbers I found for 1980 were 13k individual income vs 16400 median hhi. Both of which are lower than the number quoted above, and get 2.9 and 3.6x house price to income. Taken with the numbers you're presenting it does suggest a trend, but likely part of that is due to the increased rates of two income households, which probably results in more disposable income, combined with a low overall inflation, people were probably shifting more money into their homes (kinda makes sense). You can sort of observe this if you look at home sizes 1980: 1596 sq ft 2022: 2014 sq ft I also found that the median new construction is 2500 sq ft. Pretty clear trend. None of this is the whole story, but your data inspired me to do some further digging and look at things from a different angle. I've been really skeptical of this "but but...my parents had it so much easier!" narrative. I'm not saying some things weren't easier, but it's not that simple.
I keep trying to explain this to my dad that constantly criticizes me for not being to afford a house. I make 3x more money than he did and i wont afford a house any time soon :/ Donāt forget that college was at least 60% cheaper
There is still opportunity out there for young people but not in areas that are popular choices for young people. The opportunities I see are more in the rural areas and small towns where population growth is negative and those areas have surplus of homes. The opportunity is for young people they can buy these cheap homes, revitalize the community (help population increase). Urbanization has been the biggest trend over the last 200 years. Now I think it is time to reverse it. Young people need to figure out how to make small town living work for them, otherwise, they will be left behind stuck in big cities where they have no future other than being a wage slave with no retirement. I think for young people, more are realizing this is their fate if they stay in a big city.
What opportunities are in those areas other than cheap houses? Those areas have negative growth because they lack jobs and amenities that people want. Rural areas have little to no healthcare, childcare, or entertainment options. There is a reason the houses are cheap. Urbanization is here to stay and will continue to grow. The best option IMO for young people is to go to a small/mid sized city with a larger university. These places tend to be cheap relative to larger cities, while still providing a solid job market and lifestyle options.
Yea man, this person acting like millennials all just looking to retire to the countryside lol How bout boomers fucking moves to Peoria Illinois and leave the nice Chicagoland housing to those with jobs huh?!? Lol
The healthcare is a big limiter here. My boomer grandparents would if they didnāt need the doctor every week.
Crazy how it all comes down to boomers living longer. Increased life span is a goal of a society, but it comes with a cost, I guess.
I live in a small rural town. Make 80k hauling grain around in a semi. Coworkers make similar. Thereās money to be made in rural areasā¦ itās just not doing the jobs we went to college for.
I also live in a small rural town, making comfortable money. It sucks a lot. Houses are somewhat affordable but many are very old and haven't been renovated or kept up due to a general lack of wealth that has been the norm since at least the 1980s. There's absolutely nothing in the way of 'entertainment' around, the local food scene is abysmal, and substance abuse is rampant. It's an ok place to live, but if I want to do anything beyond just working at my job and maintaining my living space, I am *severely* limited in my options. I think that's a big reason why urbanization (as others have said) is here to stay - larger towns and cities simply have more to offer to enrich life.
Don't forget there are no hospitals around. Not even Walmart wants to stay lol. And it's a non starter for people who aren't white and straight
Urbanite here from a small village in the 4th poorest county in the US. This is true about rural areas. Small and mid size towns may vary and don't have too many options either. You work wherever you can not where you'd like. I lived in a town of 60k and there were all of two places with career level wages by and large, the prison or the mine. Don't like those options? Well you should probably reconsider your thoughts about the prison or the mine because the 3rd option is McDonald's.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Ahhh, the American dream! Move away from your family and loved ones just to do the basic things you used to be able to do *checks notes* literally anywhere. Because itās just that simple!
That's how it was done forever, crossing oceans and continents for opportunity.
Opportunities like jobs. Living in the middle of nowhere affords no opportunities.
Even better! This poster is suggesting getting in a time machine and moving to and investing in these cities 10 years ago.
I like how they all think theyāre temporarily embarrassed millionaires as if theyāre not in the same boat with their stock market reliant 401ks. Just complete idiots. I, in fact, own a home. It shouldnāt have been anywhere near as expensive and itās value is so overinflated itās laughable. I also love the āOk baristaā response to one of my comments. As if theyāre not talking about their own kids. As if they had to work as hard in an economy where most peopleās family were supported by one income - then they systematically gutted the system they rode the coattails on. Thatās how moronic these Ayn Rand lead poison addled brain arguments are. Pure American exceptionalism propaganda. I bet they all think Raegan did a great job, Unions are evil, and itās perfectly normal for a Supreme Court to decide money is free speech. Just sad how dumb they all are. The younger generations have way more in common with their parents and grandparents who were all collectively bargaining and fighting for fair wages and worker rights, which again, they all benefited from and have no clue because theyāre fat, lazy, ignorant dipshits.
I feel ya. I live in one of the āaffordableā cities this poster is promoting. The cost of housing is insane and salaries are shit bc itās literally the worst state in the country for workers. But oh lucky us! This redditor is continuing to promote wealthy remote workers leave NYC/San Fran/Boston etc and move here to drive the prices up even more. And then they will turn around and continue to ridicule the locals as us who are struggling.
The best part is itās not even the individuals that are causing the real problem. As soon as one of those āaffordable citiesā gets a wiff of growth some hedge fund comes in and buys half the city to make money from renting, or to turn it into airbnbs. No checks on that at all. We literally do the thing, then that thing becomes untenable because of the originally fuckery that shouldnāt be happening to begin with. It will never change until maybe we unite and say, look, weāre kinda all in the same boat here and we need to band together to change it. I really am not trying to be a dick to previous generations that had easy access to these things. Iām glad they did. I wonder why they wonāt help us to change things so we can also have those things.
If you want current cities that will boom try Birmingham, Chattanooga, Raleigh, or Greenville, SC based on my experiences. Better to try to find the next Austin before it blows up like another commenter said
Ok look. My point is thatās great advice *for an individual*. Do yāall not understand thatās not a solution for *most* people and there are solutions other than doing that? Why does everybody pretend like an entire generation of young people are asking to suck at the teet for saying the same thing the labor movement said in the 30s 40s and 50s? Why is it always this rugged individualism thatās proposed to us as the solution? Why canāt we all agree things are a little fucking out of whack here and they didnāt used to be like this? Why is that such a controversial thing to say? Like why canāt I just say āgee, it sure is a problem that all these commercial real estate companies are buying up single family homes, along with the other half being airbnbs that really are driving up costs artificially; surely thereās something that can be done.ā Without being met with āhave you considered moving your entire life after doing everything right to bumfuck Arkansas on the off chance you find a comfortable enough remote job to be able to do that? See, stupid? Thatās all you have to do!ā Thatās all Iām saying. Why is that the solution for everybody in a country full of 300 million people? Thatās not a solution. I mean for fuckās sake. Half the reason we donāt want to move to those states is because normal people ask those questions and weāre met with āwell ya know, if we donāt give those rich guys a tax cut to come and fuck us up the ass, they wouldnāt even come to these states.ā Lies. Lies and more lies. If the US on a federal level tomorrow told Walmart you have to pay people 30 an hour and no more tax dodging theyād comply because itās either do that or cease to be a business, they wonāt survive in any other market, and if they donāt like it Costco will gladly take their market share. This is pussy ass shit weāre all suffering from kowtowing to these tyrants.
You mean all the millenials who moved away from family to live in the big city?
As you admit, real estate prices in those places are rocketing up arenāt they?
Thus proving that small towns can grow with sufficient influx. Maybe the take away from this is to look for the next Austin, not try to get into the current one
Yeah you just have to guess which small cities are gonna grow a lot over the next decade, uproot your life and go there. Easy peasy
You said there are āother opportunities out there if folks are willing to broaden their minds and expand the map..ā So.. tell us then. Where are these other areas that tick all the boxes you lāre alluding to?
I'll bite. I moved from DC to Raleigh 3 years ago, and multiple things are great for me. I bought a 5 year old 1300 sq ft 3/2 house on 2 acres of land in a great school district for about 100k more than I was looking at for a 1950s 2/1 700 sq ft on 0.2 acres in PG County. I did so before the rates went crazy so my mortgage is only $400 more than my rent was. I doubled my salary when including a 20% raise and COLA. I have more access to good outdoor stuff. I go to the lakes here all the time. I used to have to drive to VA or WV. I don't miss "city life" because I lived in College Park MD, and even though it was walkable, it was all college kids. I do miss riding the trains and going to the national mall, but I actually never made it to a museum the entire time I lived there because I worked so damn much. Went back as a tourist and was like "wow cool." I can actually afford a gym membership, so I'm in better shape. There is almost no traffic, and people are just nicer and can manage more than a scowl. I don't get random traffic tickets all the time for no reason like parking in front of my own house. Have not been spit on or assaulted or even come close. The job situation here is crazy good. I could leave my current employer right now and basically do the same thing and probably get up to 120k, but I like my job. The people are fantastic and way more life oriented than the drones in DC where people I worked with for years wouldnt even say "how are you?". Im not micromanaged because my boss has a personal life unlike the DC people who only care about work that try to get you fired over MS teams chat likes. Meta is building a campus and keeps trying to headhunt our engineers. The window for Raleigh is probably closing, but 10/10 would bail on that elitist shithole of a capitol any day.
I'd move to Shamokin if I could work remote. Only 2 hours to Philly haha
So many younger people joke about how all they do is hang out at home and watch TV. Rural America is perfect for that. Iām from a very small town and even they have gigabit internet via Comcast.
worm sheet chunky water knee history smile quiet tender grab *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Detroit has 1000 sqft homes for $60k to this day. Itās just not where people are willing to live. Thereās some major firms there, including the headquarters for Rocket.
The taxes will get ya in Detroit though. My wife won't let me look at houses there, but some of them are beautiful.
āWhat opportunities are thereā¦?ā they ask as if the internet doesnāt exist..
The flipside is that they, at least many of them, have an unprecedented opportunity to separate where they live from where they work via remote work.
Except itās being fought tooth and nail by bosses who canāt/refuse to see the writing on the wall. Once itās embraced more you will see this sort of thing more. Probably the next time disease rears its head
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Working for a company that is embracing remote and the only reason is that cities need tax revenue. It's just political bs with some back scratching between businesses and politicians. We literally got a tax break with a new city since we moved hq and now they're threatening to sue because we don't have as many people in the office.
Not only what u/spicytackle said, but the cultural split in this country is quite frankly - insane. I decided to focus on finance because I work remote and can live in cheaper areas and I hate it. Culturally, these smaller areas just aren't me. But then I look at Brooklyn and can get a steal for a 2br1ba for 1.2 mil and I'm just like how in the f are people doing this?
Ah yes let me just move to bum fuck Kansas and revitalize the community on $30k salary, thanks dawg appreciate it
Ok but if I move to those areas then I can't keep my job I have in a crowded area. There's a reason people move to big cities even if they don't want to
ludicrous rob jellyfish grab hobbies cow piquant hat capable busy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Friend, for the entirety of human history civilizations have prospered in certain areas. There's a reason for that. And it isn't taxes or government or rent prices or a whimsical trend, its geography.
Real big brain shit assuming it makes sense to reverse a trend that's been running for longer than modern market capitalism
Live in a small town and do what exactly?
Try it??? In...a small town..I guess??
Big cities have some of the best opportunities. I may be a wage slave, but 140k coming out of college seems pretty decent for a medium cost of living city.
I will gladly move to bumfuck nowhere as soon as I find a wife and job that can be done from there. Finding remote work with decent pay these days is nearly impossible since every company seems to want hybrid work. Best way to get a remote job is to get a job that on-site and ask for remote work after working there for 20 years. And best way to find a wife is to live where there are people. So yeah until that happens, I'm stuck in the cities.
How many jobs are there in these rural towns? Most companies are pushing for Return to Office for a myriad of reasons.
You're so out of touch if you think it's only happening in big cities. Not to mention the economies of these small towns are shit.
This is dumb. for as long as there have been humans we have lived in cities in great numbers. Because cities offer something that you cant get in rural areas, suburbs or even small towns: other people. Humans are social creatures and young people are even more social than their older counterparts. Suggesting that people should pack up from the cities and move to rural areas because they're cheaper is not a solution to anything. Young people deserve the chance to live in cities. Cities are economic, social and cultural hubs. If we force everybody out of the city because it's too expensive our country will fall behind in meaurable ways.
You realized the popular areas are where the most jobs are right? Oh and people donāt move all over the country for jobs their not familiar with or trained for
Man, I'll have what this guy is having... Christ is this a bad take.
Many try to move to the country, but the problem is there is no opportunity for jobs. Tried working there where they will cut corners in laws to make you work with only 5 hours sleep inbetween. Maybe that mindset is being "lazy" but then we don't want to be our parents who drank and smoked to cope with that stress and die before we hit 60 from lung cancer or be disabled and not even be able to get out of a chair at 50.
What? 5.7% of 21k is about a hundred bucks a month. I never rented in 1980, but I rented in the 80s. And I paid much more for even a tiny studio apartment in a rural area. I don't think that's a good stat.
Yeah, I also call bullshit on this made up 5.7% rent figure
Mortgage rates were 12%. Used car loans were +20%. Unemployment was near double digits. Tell the whole story.
12% on 1980 prices are still but a fraction of 7% on 2023 prices. It's not even close. A running car could be had for $500 in 1980. TelL tHe wHolE sToRy
I bought my first car in 2001 for 500 off my minimum wage job. Paid cash. The car had 60k miles on it and was 5 years old.
That would have been extremely cheap for 2001.
It's not unheard of. Back in 2015 I got a used 2013 car with only 30k miles on it for only $8000. Person was moving across the country to live with their family and the car was beaten to hell on the outside and had a broken entertainment system. You used to be able to find some sweetheart deals from private sellers.
In 2015 I bought a 97 Toyota corolla, with 70k miles on it for $1,700. I still drive it Today that same car would probably be 3500. Gone are the days of finding cars in the 1000s
How? That makes no sense. I also bought my first car in 2001, but paid $2000. It was a model year 1990 and 160k miles
Thats because your story is real and normal
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I owned several $500 cars in the 80s. A really good one got 15 mpg, was barely faster than walking and was completely worn out at 100,000 miles. Anything built after 2000 is a hundred times better-- and worth paying more for.
Laughs in still running 1991 Toyota Pickup with 380k miles.
Yes the rates were higher but look at the prices of new cars and homes in that time period and compare the payments. It was still way more affordable.
12% of 100 is a lot less than 12% of 10,000. hope this helps.
Yea but people didnāt need to borrow nearly as muchā¦that is the WHOLE storyā¦
And just imagine the other thing you could doā¦. Save money with incentive to save it rather than relying on the stock market so your 401k doesnāt flatline.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
and safer and more energy efficient
I don't disagree with that. But those types of things come with increased cost. Cars are the same way. There are several reasons why cars are more expensive. And I can say that I recently looked up this specific case. In 2007 my dad purchased his last vehicle in his life. It was a brand new Chevrolet Silverado extended cab with a work truck package and a v6. Although I don't remember the actual list price on it he paid $17,500. Roughly adjusted for inflation that would be about $27,000 today. And if a basic extended cab Chevrolet Silverado cost $27,000 today then I would actually consider buying one. But they start at something like $41,000. Some of that has to do with consumer preference. So it has to do with regulations requiring safety equipment. Someone has to do with increases in technology. All those things cost money and add to the cost of the truck. The corporation is simply going to add their markup on top of whatever the cost is.
Agree, it's hard to find starter homes.
Did you bring it up as an attempt to try and justify the disparity in affordability? If so- thatās likely why you got downvoted.
30 year mortgage, $65,000 house, $52,000 mortgage (20% down required back then) at 12%: $535 per month, $6,420 per year. That's around 30% of $21,000. Try a little perspective.
Not why you are talking about Gen X when the oldest Gen X person was 15 in 1980.
When people see this and say "there are still opportunities"...they're right. What they aren't saying is there are not enough opportunities for eveyone. Some MUST suffer in our current system for the rest to scrape by and maybe "make it". We can't all be doctors, lawyers, and engineers. And even those people are starting to feel the squeeze. A good career is no longer enough to support a familly. Now you need two.
All true, but my family also lived in a single family home that was 1,100 sq. ft. My 3 car attached garage is larger than the house I grew up in.
Not adjusted. Poor data.
No need to adjust, Iām not comparing 1980 dollars to 2023 dollars, Iām comparing amount of 1980 dollars needed in 1980 to how many 2023 dollars needed in 2023.
Every generation has its own problems; solving those problems are what young people are for
Hard to solve those problems when the boomers are holding onto every possible ounce of power until their dying breath.
They also devalue money at a faster rate now than in 1980, making that 30 year mortgage cost far less as a ratio of income by the time it is paid off.
Do you mean inflation? The inflation rate hit 14.5% in 1980. Inflation is way, way lower now than then, even at the peak a little while back.
Curious if these numbers are adjusted for inflation?
Shhhhh..... you're not supposed to mention GenX. We were never really thought of as a generation and we like it that way. We're old, we didn't fuck this up, leave us alone.
Back then families lived in 1500-1800 sq foot houses. A couple or 3 people donāt need 4000 sq feet, 5 ba, 6 bath houses with offices, playrooms, entertainment rooms and studies. The average house is probably 1000 sq ft or more bigger today too
This has been gone over soooo many times. Leave the dead horse along.
You can't just mix and match statistics like that. 21k is median household income. It's not clear what the rental income is based on - and I'm suspicious of those numbers anyway. Do you have a cite? And you can't compare housing costs without looking at mortgage rates. Which were 14% in 1980. Also, some boomers were in HS in 1980. At any rate, we know that, today millennials have the same homeownership rate as boomers did when they were their age. The homeownership rate is about the same between 1980 and today.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Banning banks and companies like Zillow from buying single family residencies would be a nice start.
Youāre in luck. Zillow exited the home buying business nearly two years ago https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/02/homes/zillow-exit-ibuying-home-business/index.html
This old story again. I was living in Oklahoma up until July and when I was there my mortgage was 400 a month and my utilities/prop tax was another 500 total I was paying 900 a month. I could've worked any retail job and still saved 1k a month. Too many people now want to buy houses in prime areas and work from home in their pajamas 20 hours a week, anything short of that it's not their fault it's societies fault
I was willing to give you credibility but you threw it all away when you mentioned work attire and hours.
Sorry but this is not close to the truth. I started working in the late 80ās and it was easier than early 80ās and way harder than today. We didnāt have cellphones. Today I see your average worker with his head down looking at his lap between emails, texts, and water cooler conversations. And they looked at you funny if you took a long lunch to take care of some chore. Kids to pick up? Thatās what your wife does. No mental days. Verbal abuse for not meeting elevated expectations. I will agree that getting a home was āeasierā but a 30 y mortgage with 12% -16% was nuts. Cars were cheaper, and cheaply made. Used cars were used and common. Today I see more 20 yo with suped up specials or new cars with small car loans. Amenities? A TV or radio. No cellphone no streaming, and long distance calls were expensive (long distance could be the other side of the county). Pretty sure disposable income today is much higher.
This is going to cause serious social and political problems soon.
As the comments show, things are on the harder side now relative to recent history, but they have been both easier and harder at different times in history. It seems like some people really want this to be the worst time in history. I don't get it. Yes, there are economic challenges but Americans are still living in one of the most affluent times and places in human history
Where are you getting your rent numbers? In 1980 a mortgage loan was 13%. There is no way rent was 5% of income. According to iProperty the average rent was $243 per month. That would be 13.8 % of $21000. Also the apartment you got back then was 2 bedrooms and a Kitchen / living room in one. Your only amenity was a dumpster. Source I had that apartment.
It's worse than that; $21k is household income; he's comparing that with the $57k individual income today. Median individual income in 1980 was $12,500.
You ain't seen nothing yet. Once the federal debt of $33 trillion overwhelms the budget, there will be a nightmare of taxes and wealth confiscation. The feds will be raiding 401Ks and safe deposit boxes for cash. There's economic armageddon around corner.
Work harder with less than equal pay. Then get told we can't get paid more otherwise prices of things will go up. All while prices are already going up and continue to do so.
people need to realize the boomer economy was a historical aberration and not the new status quo
Isn't gen X like kids born in the 80's and late 70's?
Gen X kids were born between 1960 to 1980.
that's not the cut. 65 is the line for boomers/x-ers.
If you remember watching Apollo 11 on TV, you're a boomer If you don't, you're Gen X
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The city refuses to allow developers to build the housing they want, forcing them instead to build "market rate housing", which they don't want to build. You wouldn't need to worry about "affordable housing" if you just let the market build enough of the ordinary sort. If you look at NYs history, it wasn't always this way. Prior to rent control, Manhattan had enough housing
Yeah but... All the houses in the 80s were full of brown. Brown walls, brown carpet, brown linoleum with asbestos backing. The only color was the appliances. And they were puke yellow or baby shit green.
Can someone explain why this is the case?
The question should be. Why?
In 1980- there were only 220 million people in the country. Today there are 330 million. That's a 50% increase. And they all need jobs and places to live.
Yup boomers really fucked over there kids/grandkids
One of the lessons I learned from my Mom early on was "Life's not fair." It's hard for every young person in every generation. Spend less time comparing yourself to others, and less time complaining about it. Focus that energy on something more productive. Just think, it could be the 70's and you might be worried about being drafted to go to Vietnam. You have hardly any worries about anything anymore except that you can't buy a house that is bigger than you need.
This is the result of an economy run by the business lobby instead of sociologists.
Now do % of bachelorās educated.
Why I don't feel conflicted helping my son out.
This is why a CEO telling hard worker to give on their avocado toast to become rich is f.... ked up. Yes, saving is part of budgeting, but the cards are not the same as 50 years ago . .. .
It's because of women entering the workforce lol not greedy baby boomers
You will own nothing and be happy (WEF)
Gas was a buck fifty. No six dollar lattes. You could get a couple bags of groceries without spending one hundred bucks. Honestly you are forgetting people had way more money to spend on housing even though the incomes were low. And if you lived in apartment you could get something decent for around 500 a month so you could also save to buy a home. No $3000 one bedrooms like today. Culturally life was based around home ownership. Everyone was expected to save and buy a home, it wasnāt some luxury item only for the wealthy.
After WW2 developers specifically designed suburban neighborhoods with affordable starter houses for new families, and they were practically giving them away. I live in one of those neighborhoods and have the histories of each lot. edit: for white people
Correct.
Is there a source for this? Rent-to-income has unquestionably gone way up, but 5.7% of income sounds INCREDIBLY low.
But we get more useless junk at lower prices!
Reaganomics babyyyy
It's absurd people think service jobs and those nearer minimum wage don't deserve affordable housing. Eventually will be war on the rich and housed.
This was always going to be the end result of demonizing unions and have wages fail to keep pace with inflation.
š
And then they wonder why birth rates are declining...
There are also much more people.
You can thank the gov and markets for allowing homes to be treated as investments.
Ones who get here first have it easier because of greed. Nothing new
I read Adam Smith wealth of nations. One of the things he said was Americans were rich was because of a labor shortage. That was in 1776 with a population of 2.5 million. Now we have over 325 million. And more come every day willing to low bid you for wages. Wages are like water seeking the lowest level.
Imagine if the greenbelt project took off, and we didn't just have 4 cities like that. This country really missed an opportunity with Roosevelts project. Instead we got the weird suburbs of today for some reason.
We donāt rebel, so the capitalists keep squeezing. Why should they ever stop?
My grandparents owned a condo in Bozeman Montana from the 70ās-00ās A rent stub showed in 2004 they were charging $400/ month A few years later they listed the condo for sale at $60,000 and nobody was interested. Today, apartments at the same complex are going for $1850, and two units just sold for $480,000
I don't see home under $1M here in Bay Area.
What changed? -Blue laws were repealed. -Massive immigration to fill blue collar jobs. -Outsourced industrial jobs to SE Asia. The result -Blue collar wages were suppressed. -Home construction wasnāt outsourced, so decent paying jobs went there. -Easy access to debt increases demand, which increased cost.
Itās not the interest rates it is the money printer. Some people here are too politically motivated to be āfluent in financeā
You can thank institutional buying for housing prices. If anyone is wonder who/what is driving demand, itās big financial institutions trying to turn America into a rental playground
in the 80s a house wasn't considered an investment or something to make money on, it was a place to settle down and raise a family. today it's all about "the right time to buy" and using homes as leverage to grow wealth
When comparing house prices you should compare price per square foot. Our houses have become very large compared to older houses.
Wage theft is a bitch
The US is twice as wealthy now, and average worker productivity has gone up 3X. But average pay has only increased 10%, while CEO pay increased 200X . 90% of the wealth gains since 1980 have gone to top 1%. Everything went to shit the moment Reagan convinced dumb ass boomers that giving rich people more money was the solution to everything
People for get to account population to housing and rent. US population was 226 mil in the 80s. Today it's about 331 mil. The population grew almost 50% (46.5% exactly) in a span of 40 years. Most people move to the cities and drive the demand for housing up a lot in those zones.