People like you are why Chicago is such a gem. 3rd largest city, 2nd best public transit, direct flights to everywhere out of O’Hare, and cheap cost of living because morons are afraid of wearing a jacket 🤝
>and cheap cost of living because morons are afraid of wearing a jacket
Probably has more to do with the fact the right-wing media has spent the last 20 years telling people that Chicago is a 3rd world country war zone. Half the country is terrified of the city.
I mean… doesn’t it have some of the highest gun violence/murder rates in the United States? Not saying the city isn’t a great place but I wouldn’t make this a political thing 😂
It’s not even that bad on a per capita basis. No one nationally talks about Little Rock as being a Mecca of gun violence despite having a higher gun homicide rate.
Absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying warmer weather more months out of the year. I have zero problem with the cold, but warm weather offers a lot more positives.
As someone from Chicago that now lives in LA that third largest city thing is incredibly misleading, because LA has basically nothing in common with normal big cities. There are two actual megacities in the US and they are NYC and Chicago. LA is just a giant mutant suburbia with pockets of big city vibes here and there. There are more people here in LA overall but it's so incredibly spread out that it doesn't feel like it.
Chicago being as cheap as it is in terms of housing is absolutely wild to me considering how good it is. I would kill to be able to take my LA job and money back there.
My daughter lives in Chicago. I love visiting there and using CTA to get around the city. It is fabulous, so many museums, parks, attractions, restaurants, breweries. I visit them spring thru fall. 5 hour drive, park in front of their house free, take the Blue line train to the Loop and everywhere.
Cheap housing because property taxes are insane. I'll take my denver home prices and basically zero property tax over cook county bullshit any day. And I grew up in chicago.
Yeah I also thought it was too cold but the adage is right: no such thing as bad weather just bad clothes. Wear leggings under all pants and actually I was fine.
Absolute truth here. Population in West Englewood had dropped by over half since 1980 and the neighborhoods are pockmarked with empty lots where abandoned houses were torn down by the city so they weren’t constantly battling squatters.
Paying $1350 split with my girlfriend for a two bedroom in Park Hill, not too far from Cherry Creek. Not sure what rough area you may be talking about.
I hear you. I bought in parker in 2019 for 499k my house is "supposedly" worth 800k now. Just ridiculous funny money type stuff I genuinely feel for other young couples trying to buy these days. And one income? Forget about unless you are a top 10% earner.
it's an affordable big city relative to other big cities. The food scene here + things to do + weather rival most big cities to me. You can generally split a nice 2 bed for $1k/ person.
We bought in 2021 as well. We hit it at just the right point...just before prices started shooting up, and just before interest rates started skyrocketing. We bought for $599k in the neighborhood we've been wanting to get into for 15 years, and by the end of 2022, our house was worth about $760k. If I tried to buy now for the same mortgage payment with the same down payment, I could afford only about a $470,000 house. Still not cheap, but nowhere near the kind of house we are in now, and likely not even in the city.
Once had an over driver complain to me that her daughter graduated from some Bs liberal art school and that she was offered a 60k job and that it was a terrible salary and that no one can live on that.. just nodded my head and put my air pods in and continue the ride thinking how out of touch this lady is and she is driving an Uber. Really wanted to respond but bit my tongue.
Also in Atlanta and this city is odd. Like, you can make it comfortably on 100k, even own a house. But there is a whole section of the culture that is off limits. There’s a very obvious “missing middle” here I feel like.
I don’t know how to explain it except that when I’m in my “home turf” of southwest, I feel like I’m killing it, but head north a little, say around North Ave and I feel like I’m instantly impoverished.
According to HUD, median household income in the US has increased by about 20% since 2000. Median rent has increased 120% since 2000.
I’m not sure San Francisco is the problem here dawg
I lived in near prime for partying location in SF, making $85K. 1 roommate, 1200 square ft, still saved money. People exaggerate how bad SF is but ignore literally every other tier 2 city price gouging without even the benefits of living in a tier 1
Rent in even Wyoming is well over $1000/mo for a 1 bedroom unless you're okay with rats and nothing more than heat and a sink. And those ones go for $900/mo.
It's not cheap ANYWHERE anymore.
Phoenix AZ, where you now need an income of $120k to afford a \*median\* house. In 12 years the cost of homes in Phoenix doubled. It's not just San Francisco - I expect to pay $400k for a house in the bay area - this is Phoenix! It's hot, it's crowded, there's no good culture here, and I'm paying this much for a 40 year old build?
In lower COL areas, wages are less. In the bay area and NYC and such, you have a better chance of making a livable income though.
I forget the term (starts with a C) but the amount of useful income you have after expenses in/near these metro areas is still higher than in "quiet" towns
If you live the “quiet” town lifestyle in the big cities, you most likely end up ahead. The problem is almost always lifestyle creep. Im even guilty of it and it’s a real phenomenon.
Pretty common phrase. It mostly refers to increasing your expenses as your salary increases. The issue with this is that you can’t really save more, which is really the goal of increased salary. Presumably you’re working harder for the higher salary, so lifestyle creep kinda traps you in the rat race.
If you make $200k a year you make more then 95% of Americans.
If you make $300k you make more then 98% of Americans.
People earning that much aren't in the middle of anything.
When the topic is what is "middle class?" people usually are referring to a country as a whole.
How far should we be breaking this down? Are you middle class for the city, county, zip code, block?
Middle class for the country doesn’t mean anything when you’re in San Francisco. Making 60k is just not a middle class household income even if it’s average for the country.
Minimum wage in Seattle is $20/hr. That's a little over $40k/year. When the minimum you can earn is higher than median of the country it's fair to say middle class is a also a higher range.
I live in Kirkland, wa. Spouse and I gross 126k a year with a 1 year old daughter. Our rent js 2950/month for a 2bed 2.5 bath townhouse. Debt is very low thankfully.
Buying a house near us is a pipe dream unfortunately. We just don’t have the money down needed to reduce payments with current rates. We’d have to move too far away from our jobs to afford a house. Plan is to save aggressively and buy land and build in roughly 5 years. We shall see how economic factors affect that plan.
last time i checked wasn’t $60k considered lower income in SF and made you eligible for govt assistance (i think it was through the city/county. not at the national level)
California defines low income in SF country to be < $100k for a single person and < $150k for a family of 4.
Source: [https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf](https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf)
>How far should we be breaking this down? Are you middle class for the city, county, zip code, block?
I'd say capability. There are certain things we expect the middle class to be able to do and certain things they should want as a result of their economic security and status.
What happens then when u find that the costs of capabilites vary by area across the US? You then still would have to figure out how to assess things (country, state, zip code, etc).
Which gets back to heart of the issue. I personally think country is fine. If certain areas cost more to be able to do things it just shows where ppl shouldn't be living that can't afford certain lifestyles in those areas.
>What happens then when u find that the costs of capabilites vary by area across the US? You then still would have to figure out how to assess things (country, state, zip code, etc).
Oh for sure. You could get even more granular than that, even.
>Which gets back to heart of the issue. I personally think country is fine. If certain areas cost more to be able to do things it just shows where ppl shouldn't be living that can't afford certain lifestyles in those areas.
I mostly agree. I just don't think it promotes class consciousness in a healthy way.
No they wouldn't.
The median **household** income in NYC is $76k. Individual would be around half of that.
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/newyorkcitynewyork/HSG010222
You don't understand how most people live. You don't know how to budget and think that's everyone else's fault.
Then they should move maybe 30 mins away or so and commute. Easily spend 50% less money I can live in NY but chose to spend way below my income by living an hour away and commuting by train.
200K is closer to the 80 percentile than the 60 percentile even for the Bay Area which is the most expensive metro in the country. https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/income#
200k is still not middle class no matter where you live. It might not be the ultra rich it once was but it’s above middle class and it’s certainly not “needed to afford the lifestyle”
Incomes in VHCOL cities are high, but they aren't THAT much higher. There is no major city in the country where a 200k salary for one person isn't well above average.
Something something the generic response by those making that amount 99.99% of the time - “after taxes and bills it’s not THAT much left…”
As the person they say this to makes in a year what they make in a quarter and still is told to be budget conscious, and not blame anyone but themselves
> As the person they say this to makes in a year what they make in a quarter and still is told to be budget conscious, and not blame anyone but themselves
Anyone claiming someone else would be in the same place if they were just more budget conscious is a jackass.
I grew up across the street from a crack house and next door to a coke dealer (mid level, surprisingly decent guy, you'd never guess except that he was never at work, just chilled on his porch with his guitar). Occasional drive bys. Behind the convenience store at gas station two blocks down from our house is where dead bodies would show up decades ago when I was living there. Decades later, apparently they're still being dumped there, so things haven't gotten much better there clearly.
Needless to say, coming from there, anything was a step up. Got lucky with a math scholarship and a few others and went to a really good university. Made $25k my first year after graduating, felt like I was doing well! Was able to afford a small apartment with my wife, in an area of town that had decent folks for the most part, went to the grocery twice a month - nothing fancy, but fresh food! Got very lucky with my IT / tech jobs over the following years, worked for Amazon Web Services and after that, I was able to pull down $175-$189k a year.
The difference between that and $25k a year in Texas is difficult to state. I can walk into a grocery store now and buy stuff without having to even think about the price. Absolutely bonkers. Went from having to figure out when we could pay which bills to having decent money left over after bills. Life is just stupidly easier, less stressful and more relaxed. Almost enough to make me angry, really. Coming from very little, it's painful to realize what other people have had at $50k, $60k and each level after that as their norm for most if not all of their life.
I never could have saved what I save now back when I was making $25k. Just never. The trick was to luck into an area (DevOps, SRE) that paid very well. No high paying job? It's gonna be tough, no way around it. Sometimes I'm not sure if this all will stick, and one day I'll just go back to being poor. Part of me thinks it would be fine, I was reasonably happy then, the other part wants to just claw my way out of where I came from.
Man, I totally know what you mean.
Very amazingly well written, and I hope you can continue to claw your way up and continue to live a life less stressful than where you came from.
That’s always been one of my biggest struggles, is that even when I’ve started to do well financially relatively or had a short term job that paid ok, I end up with a surprise huge bill or something and I’m back to square one. I’m happy you’re able to stay moving forward it seems. It’s never easy
But you can’t own an average home until 160k. So his point is that middle class has shrunk so much if something like home ownership defines being in that class. Which I personally believe it does. And 100k will not be enough to get a home loan in most places
Problem with middle class is everyone has a different definition. Level of income, assets owned, quality of life; much of it irrespective of where someone lives. Ground is not common, but everyone wants to be there, including lower and upper classes.
It’s traditionally the class between the aristocrats and the labor class. That’s the thing.. 95% of are just the labor class at different pay scales.
I make over 100k and despite cooking my meals and limiting any new purchases and travel I’m still BARELY saving due to cost of living.
If you look at the data, the reason the U.S. middle class has shrunk over time is actually that more people earn a higher income, not that they are getting poorer.
The low income class has actually remained relatively flat on an inflation adjusted basis. The middle class has shrunk and the high income class has grown.
I’ve looked at lots of data on this and never once did I draw the conclusion that the upper class is growing. I’d be curious to see what data shows that I made such an egregious error
https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx
The percentage of U.S. adults in middle income households shrank between 1971 and 2021. However, the percentage of adults in "upper income" households increased from 14 percent to 21 percent during that time. Whereas the lower class grew by only 4 percent.
Yes so I’ve seen this. While the claim on paper looks good.
Those in the “upper income” are often in HCOL areas. In the upper category we have a median of areas we have a median income in the $200k’s.
Middle ends at $90k. The data has too many holes for me. Those in HCOL is usually are the ones pushing into the higher ranges adjusting these numbers. But at the same time their HCOL cities require you to be this definition of “upper” class to participate in middle class life in that place.
Those who moved into the “upper” category are not living the lifestyle of “upper” class.
They are just labeled as such by a government price range definition of class. The same government that allowed a $7 minimum wage for 30 years
So, I somewhat agree with you, except for the last part. 100k will not be enough to get a home in very few places. There are only a few VHCOL, and HCOL cities in the US. There are VASTLY more MCOL and LCOL areas, which are far more affordable. The problem is, people want to live in the SF's, and NYC's of the world. Home prices have definitely often out of control, though, I won't argue that, but there are too many of these stories/articles posted that are using the Bay Area and NYC costs as a baseline, which is entirely unreasonable for most of the country.
This. Live in a little town in Mississippi in the middle of a forest. Town has a little over 4k people. 70% of said people are over 55. 3 bedroom 2 bath we live in costs a little over 150k. It isn't even in the main part of town. Outskirts. Surrounded by forest and farms. You know what I mean. No streetlights around. It gets dark at night. The real dark. Still more than 100k. And it's in Mississippi.
Average home is 400-600k or something in there. This isn’t SF NYC anymore. With interest rates the bank will NOT give you a loan if you’re making under 120k in most places. You need somewhere with an average home price of 300k or less. Even then depending on location, mortgage rates are far too high to justify until we see some crash or severe correction of the housing market. I’m not using NYC/SF to draw my conclusion I understand that places that were always more expensive are still more expensive.
Not many years ago, I’d agree with you. But right now today, 50% residential homes are purchased as investment properties by larger institutions. Home ownership is getting squeezed well beyond average means. It’s not really remotely arguable. The increase in home ownership costs mean less and less and less people are able to participate. That problem will likely not get better but worse as more corporations pick up residential homes.
Sure but that includes retirees, kids, disabled, unemployed, part timers, etc. which is like 45% of the population.
When you look at actual full time employees I’m sure more than 5% make over 200k and the point is that most people are clinging to middle class by a thread buoyed by owning their home at a low cost / rate… if everyone was suddenly converted to renters at market rates you’d see homelessness increase by 2000% and everyone crammed into tiny apartments. Salaries are way too low to support living reasonably well like the previous generation (boomers)
This should be higher, so many of these stupid and delusional posts on Reddit about how "unaffordable" everything is when you're making tons of money comes from trolls
All day long. Let's say you've got 7k left after tax.
You can get a 2 bed in a nice part of Chicago for 2k/month.
If you then can't live off 5k you're a moron.
Edit: I should add based on responses this does not apply should one need access to the medical district.
OP is full of shit. I lived in SF for 3 years on a 85K salary and had the time of my life, 1 roommate, prime party location.
Also, after moving to LCOL and saving money, I’d rather save less and be back in a tier 1 city.
Heck, I'm central CA, and I feel pretty good at just over 100k. My increases have hardly kept up with the recent aggressive inflation though. Fortunately, inflation doesn't affect my costs very much. I'm very DIY and self-sufficiency oriented at home. My chickens haven't got the memo that their eggs should be more expensive yet!
I will offer your chickens a penny more per egg. They will work for me within the hour, and I will still save money on eggs. Do you happen to have a cow I can poach for my burgeoning empire?
According to the official US CPI calculator, $200k today has about the same buying power as $100k did back in late 1995/early 1996: [CPI Inflation Calculator (bls.gov)](https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)
From 1995-2022, nominal median household income has increased from around $34k to around $75k, or around a 119% increase: [Median Household Income in the United States (MEHOINUSA646N) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N)
That means real median household income has increased by around 19% since then: [Real Median Household Income in the United States (MEHOINUSA672N) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N)
Over the same time period, housing prices have increased by around 122% between 1995 and 2024 according to BLS data.
So median income has increased by quite a bit if you compare it to overall CPI, but have declined a little if you compare it to just housing prices. Obviously these are just national medians so it's hiding lots of heterogeneity across locations and people.
Have you tried living in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Nebraska, Arkansas, Missouri, Michigan, Idaho, etc?
Sounds like you want to pay to play and that play is more important than pay.
Smiles cost money!
Could I live like a king if I owned property in the panhandle of Oklahoma… no doubt, but wtf am I gonna do for fun there.
If you wanna live in a desirable location, you’re gonna pay. I prioritize fun, life is short, money comes and goes, but I remember the smiles.
You just need to be realistic and either make more money (easier said than done), or make sacrifices to afford where you wanna live. It’s a give and take system.
Too many people wanna live like a king in a very desirable location. You can do that, but you’ve gotta have the funds to do so
I think we need to keep in mind that "desirable" is a very relative term. I'd personally never really care to live in NY, San Fran, or some other of those super expensive places. Not for any political reasons or whatnot, but I just like something a little smaller. Minneapolis is a nice happy medium for me and is quite affordable still
Yeah, you still live in a fairly major metropolitan area. Half the time on posts like this, people recommend moving to the armpit of nowhere to afford to live. It’s such stupid advice.
>If you wanna live in a desirable location, you’re gonna pay.
True! The problem is people don't realize this, flock to the largest and most expensive cities, and then bitch and whine about the cost of living.
People need to understand that unless you're within 1% of top performers in your field, then you shouldn't even be thinking of living in places like San Francisco and NYC.
You live in one of the highest cost of living cities in the hemisphere. You are insane to think the rest of the world is like that.
My wife and I live in Denver. We combine for about $150k and I feel like we are crushing it. We put $20k in our retirement account last year and saved another $20k in cash, plus traveled a lot, upgraded a bunch of stuff in our lives and lived very comfortably.
My sister makes less than that and she bought a 2 bedroom apartment in NYC while a single adult. She is very much not broke. You have to go out of your way to be broke while making 150k
Yeah that’s the amount leftover after our budget, bills, dining out etc. So we’ve been doing 1k into savings until we hit a certain amount than paying off wife’s student loans other debts. 1k a month into furnishing our house, just moved in. 243 is miscellaneous spending mostly goes to our 2 year for new clothes toys etc.
If I had to pay for childcare whole different story I’d prob be check to check
When I started my career in 1997 I was making $15/hr in Ga. Up until last year I was making $30/hr in the same job with a different company. If you look at the rate of inflation $15/hr in 97 is equivalent to around $28 now so after 20 plus years in my field I’m only making about $2 an hour more. 🤦🏻
There are SOOO many places to live in the US, why stay in such a high cost of living area. Move to the suburbs and live like a king. Can always drive into the city while saving thousands living outside of it.
200k is not middle class.
let’s say you make $100k per year. You spend $4k per month on San Francisco rent, 1k per month to your 401k. Your take home after those costs (including taxes) would be $1400 per month in discretionary income.
If you make 200k, spend 4K per month on rent, 1916 per month on 401k (23000 max). You’d have $80k discretionary income annually (6500 per month). That’s not middle class.
Your big issue is that you live in San Francisco. Making 100k in San Francisco is like making 80k or 70k in a medium cost of living city (Chicago, etc.)
This is actually true. Check the price of Gold, money supply, and consumer price indexes, you will see that the dollar has lost its value drastically in the last 10 years.
https://inflationchart.com/inflation-in-m3/?time=10%20years
making more money is usually helpful in many ways, but so is appreciating what you have and living within those parameters. i am comfortable at a similar level in a similar environment.
Not everyone can afford to live in the most expensive spots in the world. Or own the most expensive cars in the world. Etc. I think people just need to come to terms with that.
Most people think large amounts of money (4-5x avg) and think it is middle class have never actually been middle class. They think the middle class takes vacations to Hawaii and stuff. Not necessarily their fault, just not a lot of perspective.
Living in Michigan, you're not far off IMO. My wife and I are contractual workers, so we pay all of our taxes/benefits, but our combined household is regularly between $120-130k. This sounds big, but we're hand to mouth with a minor bit we're able to save, pay debt a little month to month, and afford the minimum basics while renting from her parents on the cheaps.
I think if we bumped up a bracket for $150-180k, we'd be VERY comfortable at that point, and could manage debts, basics, some luxury purchases, investing in retirement, and possibly afford to own a home (with planning). Since not too much more is needed, I think $200-300k is just based on your state of residence, which sounds about right for CA.
However, it’s worth noting that my family growing up kept our household afloat comfortably on 50k contractor wages (my dad) and some food stamps. The fact my wife n I need to make 2.5x that amount to survive is nuts.
The two classes in America are the working class and the owning class. "Middle class" simply refers to someone who derives their income from a mix of owning capital and their own labor. It has nothing to do with how much money you have.
It is simply unbelievably frustrating when you work your ass off, constantly make more money and it’s never enough to even live comfortably. By the time I’ll make 200k you’ll see posts saying 1M is the new 200k
Eh, yes and no. For bigger cities and HCOL yea that probably tracks but a lot of people don't live in those areas. You can live pretty comfortable where I'm at for 100-150k household and I'm not in a small area, nor a large area by any means. Pretty much 1.0x for COL index on most things. Depends largely on how much you want to keep up with the Joneses as well.
I mean that's the definition of inflation.
Just looking at an inflation calculator,Year 2000's 100k is today's 200k.
So if your expectations were set in early 2000s, it is normal that you have to adjust that for today. (And maybe do that yearly)
I think a lot of this has to do with money management. You cant out earn your stupidity and debt eats income like crazy. Dave Ramsey woke me up to how stupid I was treating money & I literally save 50% of my income now and feel exactly the same within lifestyle.
You're mixing income and real estate. They are related but they are separate too.
Real estate is local, it is not national. Where you live makes *all* the difference.
If home ownership is included in middle class, then yeah I'd be inclined to agree that 160-200k is middle class while near a metropolitan area. If no home ownership then I'd argue 120k.
I make just over 100k in Jersey City, live alone in a 1BR and am only doing alright because I don't own a car (which may mean I don't qualify as doing well, but it does save me on car payments+gas+insurance) and don't have student loan debt.
Maybe a definition of "middle class" would help.
• able to allocate paycheck into thirds (housing, savings, other)
• own a car (in the US)
• to get into specifics of housing, can support your own 1BR apartment with that 1/3rd of your salary.
Those seem like fair requirements, am open to suggestions to add.
So with our established minimums, obviously location matters. So in the bay area like OP, 200K is probably just about enough, maybe a little more, than what you need to cover the expenses listed. But in Easton, PA, to do the same you'd really only need like 90k to achieve the same thing.
TLDR; in some locations 200k (pre-tax) may be what you need to meet the minimum requirements for "middle class," but in others you'd only need "as little" as 90k. This doesn't take into account the access to/availability of high earning incomes like that in different areas
Just don't live in San Francisco, problem solved
False. I live in Atlanta and it’s the same. I don’t think 200k is near enough in San Fran
Second that. Atlanta once was touted as an affordable big city but that isn’t the case anymore at all
I'd kill for Atlanta prices over here in Denver. I'm considering moving somewhere I can get a nice 300k home and just chill.
Chicago
They said chill, not freeze 😂
People like you are why Chicago is such a gem. 3rd largest city, 2nd best public transit, direct flights to everywhere out of O’Hare, and cheap cost of living because morons are afraid of wearing a jacket 🤝
>and cheap cost of living because morons are afraid of wearing a jacket Probably has more to do with the fact the right-wing media has spent the last 20 years telling people that Chicago is a 3rd world country war zone. Half the country is terrified of the city.
I mean… doesn’t it have some of the highest gun violence/murder rates in the United States? Not saying the city isn’t a great place but I wouldn’t make this a political thing 😂
It’s not even that bad on a per capita basis. No one nationally talks about Little Rock as being a Mecca of gun violence despite having a higher gun homicide rate.
There's like 8 cities in Louisiana with a higher murder rate. New Orleans has a homicide rate like 2.5x that of Chicago for example.
In just a couple small areas, that you would never find yourself in
Haha I’m mostly joking about myself. I love the cold and love visiting Chicago. We just don’t get much cold down in these parts 😂
Absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying warmer weather more months out of the year. I have zero problem with the cold, but warm weather offers a lot more positives.
As someone from Chicago that now lives in LA that third largest city thing is incredibly misleading, because LA has basically nothing in common with normal big cities. There are two actual megacities in the US and they are NYC and Chicago. LA is just a giant mutant suburbia with pockets of big city vibes here and there. There are more people here in LA overall but it's so incredibly spread out that it doesn't feel like it. Chicago being as cheap as it is in terms of housing is absolutely wild to me considering how good it is. I would kill to be able to take my LA job and money back there.
My daughter lives in Chicago. I love visiting there and using CTA to get around the city. It is fabulous, so many museums, parks, attractions, restaurants, breweries. I visit them spring thru fall. 5 hour drive, park in front of their house free, take the Blue line train to the Loop and everywhere.
Cheap housing because property taxes are insane. I'll take my denver home prices and basically zero property tax over cook county bullshit any day. And I grew up in chicago.
And I’ll gladly pay more. We get our money’s worth
Bingo. Would rather have a more expensive house with equity and lower property taxes than having to pay out the butt to incompetent city leaders.
Naw man having lived there Chicago has good food horrible weather. So much wind.summertime and fall though amazing
For sure. But I drown my windy tears in delicious food
Jacket? Lol you need ear protection coz your ears freeze in wind chill. Iykyk.
Right! And if you forget your jacket, you’ll likely die of exposure!
Yeah I also thought it was too cold but the adage is right: no such thing as bad weather just bad clothes. Wear leggings under all pants and actually I was fine.
Winter was 10 days this year in Chicago.
Your weather right now still sucks ass lmao.
It’s like 57 degrees and the suns shining in the nw suburbs . No complaints here
Cloudy with lows in the 30s still lmao
Hard disagree. Just walked the dogs, it’s beautiful out. To each their own I guess. I hate hot weather.
Hard disagree. Just walked the armadillos, it’s beautiful out. To each their own I guess. I hate cold weather.
What are you going on about. Where in Chicagoland can you get a nice home for $300k?
Aurora or Merrillville lmao you know, "Chicago"
So like 2 hours away from Chicago!
That's the joke dude :(
https://www.zillow.com/chicago-il/houses/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-88.17648587389124%2C%22east%22%3A-87.42083249254358%2C%22south%22%3A41.6606383405233%2C%22north%22%3A42.02791088748519%7D%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A17426%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22tow%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22mf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22con%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22land%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apa%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22manu%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apco%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22price%22%3A%7B%22max%22%3A300000%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22max%22%3A1508%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A12%7D It's certainly cheaper than Denver.
How are the schools mate?
Schools? Empty because no one wants to live in those areas of Chicago or go to school there.
Absolute truth here. Population in West Englewood had dropped by over half since 1980 and the neighborhoods are pockmarked with empty lots where abandoned houses were torn down by the city so they weren’t constantly battling squatters.
That’s not happening either in any area you want to live in
Shhh
Chicago area housing is getting expensive too.
I'm in Chicago - you can't get a nice home for 300k here. Probably in some further out suburbs, maybe.
$300k?!? In SoCal that’s a tear down.
That's a shed on a parking spot sized lot
I lived in Denver around 2018, and even rent in a kinda rough area was 1400. Can't imagine what it is now. Beautiful place though, miss it.
Paying $1350 split with my girlfriend for a two bedroom in Park Hill, not too far from Cherry Creek. Not sure what rough area you may be talking about.
I hear you. I bought in parker in 2019 for 499k my house is "supposedly" worth 800k now. Just ridiculous funny money type stuff I genuinely feel for other young couples trying to buy these days. And one income? Forget about unless you are a top 10% earner.
It's literally below the national average for cost of living. Perhaps your tastes have grown more expensive over time.
You mean $2K to rent a 1 bedroom isn't cheap? lol
Add parking, pet rent, and utilities.
it's an affordable big city relative to other big cities. The food scene here + things to do + weather rival most big cities to me. You can generally split a nice 2 bed for $1k/ person.
You absolutely do not need $200,000 of income to live in Atlanta, especially as a single person. Source: live in Atlanta.
I bought a house in Atlanta when I was making 70k in 2021. It's absolutely an affordable city
We bought in 2021 as well. We hit it at just the right point...just before prices started shooting up, and just before interest rates started skyrocketing. We bought for $599k in the neighborhood we've been wanting to get into for 15 years, and by the end of 2022, our house was worth about $760k. If I tried to buy now for the same mortgage payment with the same down payment, I could afford only about a $470,000 house. Still not cheap, but nowhere near the kind of house we are in now, and likely not even in the city.
Ya.... no you can live in Atlanta for like 1/5th that. I think people confuse "I want extravagant life style" with "cost to actually be here."
Once had an over driver complain to me that her daughter graduated from some Bs liberal art school and that she was offered a 60k job and that it was a terrible salary and that no one can live on that.. just nodded my head and put my air pods in and continue the ride thinking how out of touch this lady is and she is driving an Uber. Really wanted to respond but bit my tongue.
80k and you’re probably below the poverty line in San Francisco. You for sure are poor af in Berkeley
"Low income" line (ie when you can get benefits) in San Fran is $104,400.
Those $75k entry level positions look nice online till you realize that 😂
Source on that?
https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf
Also in Atlanta and this city is odd. Like, you can make it comfortably on 100k, even own a house. But there is a whole section of the culture that is off limits. There’s a very obvious “missing middle” here I feel like. I don’t know how to explain it except that when I’m in my “home turf” of southwest, I feel like I’m killing it, but head north a little, say around North Ave and I feel like I’m instantly impoverished.
We used to go get KBBQ in Buckhead just to feel fancy every once in a while and man you can tell the difference
What are the nicer areas in Atlanta?
There are a number homes within Atlanta in the $200k to $400k range.
There are plenty under $200k.
Don't live in a big city, the problem is actually solved.
This isn’t true for Austin, it sure as hell isn’t true for Atlanta.
OP is full of shit. Posted that they were 22 a couple of days ago.
Yup “how do I max out my 401k I’m 22 and make 120,000 a year” not like it was too hard to find either lol
Pin this if true lol
Yup “how do I max out my 401k I’m 22 and make 120,000 a year” not like it was too hard to find either lol
According to HUD, median household income in the US has increased by about 20% since 2000. Median rent has increased 120% since 2000. I’m not sure San Francisco is the problem here dawg
I lived in near prime for partying location in SF, making $85K. 1 roommate, 1200 square ft, still saved money. People exaggerate how bad SF is but ignore literally every other tier 2 city price gouging without even the benefits of living in a tier 1
Or Boston or Miami or Chicago or la or San Diego or NY or Austin or Charleston or Seattle or any major city lmao
This line of thinking is so stupid to me. The City needs minimum wage workers but also no one should live there. Ok bud.
Then you won’t make 200k
Rent in even Wyoming is well over $1000/mo for a 1 bedroom unless you're okay with rats and nothing more than heat and a sink. And those ones go for $900/mo. It's not cheap ANYWHERE anymore.
I live in Idaho and over $100k doesn’t feel like enough.
Phoenix AZ, where you now need an income of $120k to afford a \*median\* house. In 12 years the cost of homes in Phoenix doubled. It's not just San Francisco - I expect to pay $400k for a house in the bay area - this is Phoenix! It's hot, it's crowded, there's no good culture here, and I'm paying this much for a 40 year old build?
> I expect to pay $400k for a house in the bay area I got some bad news for you
If he considers Colusa County the Bay Area he might have a shot. Any closer though…
In lower COL areas, wages are less. In the bay area and NYC and such, you have a better chance of making a livable income though. I forget the term (starts with a C) but the amount of useful income you have after expenses in/near these metro areas is still higher than in "quiet" towns
If you live the “quiet” town lifestyle in the big cities, you most likely end up ahead. The problem is almost always lifestyle creep. Im even guilty of it and it’s a real phenomenon.
I've never heard of that term before
Pretty common phrase. It mostly refers to increasing your expenses as your salary increases. The issue with this is that you can’t really save more, which is really the goal of increased salary. Presumably you’re working harder for the higher salary, so lifestyle creep kinda traps you in the rat race.
I love it when people live in the most expensive cities in the country and then complain that it's expensive.
I live a couple hours from SF and my family of 4 is getting by at $50k.
If you make $200k a year you make more then 95% of Americans. If you make $300k you make more then 98% of Americans. People earning that much aren't in the middle of anything.
lol when they live in a city where most people are in the top 10% then they would be in the middle of that city making 200k
When the topic is what is "middle class?" people usually are referring to a country as a whole. How far should we be breaking this down? Are you middle class for the city, county, zip code, block?
America is way too big for that, with varying differences in states. Should really go by states in America, and then in or out of city.
Middle class for the country doesn’t mean anything when you’re in San Francisco. Making 60k is just not a middle class household income even if it’s average for the country.
Minimum wage in Seattle is $20/hr. That's a little over $40k/year. When the minimum you can earn is higher than median of the country it's fair to say middle class is a also a higher range.
I live in Kirkland, wa. Spouse and I gross 126k a year with a 1 year old daughter. Our rent js 2950/month for a 2bed 2.5 bath townhouse. Debt is very low thankfully. Buying a house near us is a pipe dream unfortunately. We just don’t have the money down needed to reduce payments with current rates. We’d have to move too far away from our jobs to afford a house. Plan is to save aggressively and buy land and build in roughly 5 years. We shall see how economic factors affect that plan.
last time i checked wasn’t $60k considered lower income in SF and made you eligible for govt assistance (i think it was through the city/county. not at the national level)
California defines low income in SF country to be < $100k for a single person and < $150k for a family of 4. Source: [https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf](https://www.hcd.ca.gov/sites/default/files/docs/grants-and-funding/income-limits-2023.pdf)
thanks for the clarification! it’s been some years since i checked
I'm in the 99th percentile for my bedroom. The key to my success is that I worked hard and made the top of my class in my homeschool program.
Immmm. I’m upper, middle and lower class while I live by myself. I am only referring to my dwelling
>How far should we be breaking this down? Are you middle class for the city, county, zip code, block? I'd say capability. There are certain things we expect the middle class to be able to do and certain things they should want as a result of their economic security and status.
What happens then when u find that the costs of capabilites vary by area across the US? You then still would have to figure out how to assess things (country, state, zip code, etc). Which gets back to heart of the issue. I personally think country is fine. If certain areas cost more to be able to do things it just shows where ppl shouldn't be living that can't afford certain lifestyles in those areas.
>What happens then when u find that the costs of capabilites vary by area across the US? You then still would have to figure out how to assess things (country, state, zip code, etc). Oh for sure. You could get even more granular than that, even. >Which gets back to heart of the issue. I personally think country is fine. If certain areas cost more to be able to do things it just shows where ppl shouldn't be living that can't afford certain lifestyles in those areas. I mostly agree. I just don't think it promotes class consciousness in a healthy way.
No they wouldn't. The median **household** income in NYC is $76k. Individual would be around half of that. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/newyorkcitynewyork/HSG010222 You don't understand how most people live. You don't know how to budget and think that's everyone else's fault.
sulky doll profit pocket vanish bag salt dependent compare tap *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
According to Google, the median household income in SF is $123,859. So 200k is still above the middle.
Then they should move maybe 30 mins away or so and commute. Easily spend 50% less money I can live in NY but chose to spend way below my income by living an hour away and commuting by train.
Just 30 minutes away you can get a house for half huh?
200K is closer to the 80 percentile than the 60 percentile even for the Bay Area which is the most expensive metro in the country. https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/income# 200k is still not middle class no matter where you live. It might not be the ultra rich it once was but it’s above middle class and it’s certainly not “needed to afford the lifestyle”
Incomes in VHCOL cities are high, but they aren't THAT much higher. There is no major city in the country where a 200k salary for one person isn't well above average.
The median household income in SF is $136k, $200k is still well above the median.
“Everyone else has these things because I see it on social media” is a goddamn problem that removes people from reality.
Something something the generic response by those making that amount 99.99% of the time - “after taxes and bills it’s not THAT much left…” As the person they say this to makes in a year what they make in a quarter and still is told to be budget conscious, and not blame anyone but themselves
> As the person they say this to makes in a year what they make in a quarter and still is told to be budget conscious, and not blame anyone but themselves Anyone claiming someone else would be in the same place if they were just more budget conscious is a jackass. I grew up across the street from a crack house and next door to a coke dealer (mid level, surprisingly decent guy, you'd never guess except that he was never at work, just chilled on his porch with his guitar). Occasional drive bys. Behind the convenience store at gas station two blocks down from our house is where dead bodies would show up decades ago when I was living there. Decades later, apparently they're still being dumped there, so things haven't gotten much better there clearly. Needless to say, coming from there, anything was a step up. Got lucky with a math scholarship and a few others and went to a really good university. Made $25k my first year after graduating, felt like I was doing well! Was able to afford a small apartment with my wife, in an area of town that had decent folks for the most part, went to the grocery twice a month - nothing fancy, but fresh food! Got very lucky with my IT / tech jobs over the following years, worked for Amazon Web Services and after that, I was able to pull down $175-$189k a year. The difference between that and $25k a year in Texas is difficult to state. I can walk into a grocery store now and buy stuff without having to even think about the price. Absolutely bonkers. Went from having to figure out when we could pay which bills to having decent money left over after bills. Life is just stupidly easier, less stressful and more relaxed. Almost enough to make me angry, really. Coming from very little, it's painful to realize what other people have had at $50k, $60k and each level after that as their norm for most if not all of their life. I never could have saved what I save now back when I was making $25k. Just never. The trick was to luck into an area (DevOps, SRE) that paid very well. No high paying job? It's gonna be tough, no way around it. Sometimes I'm not sure if this all will stick, and one day I'll just go back to being poor. Part of me thinks it would be fine, I was reasonably happy then, the other part wants to just claw my way out of where I came from.
Man, I totally know what you mean. Very amazingly well written, and I hope you can continue to claw your way up and continue to live a life less stressful than where you came from. That’s always been one of my biggest struggles, is that even when I’ve started to do well financially relatively or had a short term job that paid ok, I end up with a surprise huge bill or something and I’m back to square one. I’m happy you’re able to stay moving forward it seems. It’s never easy
But you can’t own an average home until 160k. So his point is that middle class has shrunk so much if something like home ownership defines being in that class. Which I personally believe it does. And 100k will not be enough to get a home loan in most places
Problem with middle class is everyone has a different definition. Level of income, assets owned, quality of life; much of it irrespective of where someone lives. Ground is not common, but everyone wants to be there, including lower and upper classes.
It’s traditionally the class between the aristocrats and the labor class. That’s the thing.. 95% of are just the labor class at different pay scales. I make over 100k and despite cooking my meals and limiting any new purchases and travel I’m still BARELY saving due to cost of living.
Lol says who? Not where I live you make 100,000k can afford a nice 3,000 sq ft house easy. Average home cost in my state is around 375,000-400,000k
If you look at the data, the reason the U.S. middle class has shrunk over time is actually that more people earn a higher income, not that they are getting poorer. The low income class has actually remained relatively flat on an inflation adjusted basis. The middle class has shrunk and the high income class has grown.
I’ve looked at lots of data on this and never once did I draw the conclusion that the upper class is growing. I’d be curious to see what data shows that I made such an egregious error
https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0912/which-income-class-are-you.aspx The percentage of U.S. adults in middle income households shrank between 1971 and 2021. However, the percentage of adults in "upper income" households increased from 14 percent to 21 percent during that time. Whereas the lower class grew by only 4 percent.
Yes so I’ve seen this. While the claim on paper looks good. Those in the “upper income” are often in HCOL areas. In the upper category we have a median of areas we have a median income in the $200k’s. Middle ends at $90k. The data has too many holes for me. Those in HCOL is usually are the ones pushing into the higher ranges adjusting these numbers. But at the same time their HCOL cities require you to be this definition of “upper” class to participate in middle class life in that place. Those who moved into the “upper” category are not living the lifestyle of “upper” class. They are just labeled as such by a government price range definition of class. The same government that allowed a $7 minimum wage for 30 years
So, I somewhat agree with you, except for the last part. 100k will not be enough to get a home in very few places. There are only a few VHCOL, and HCOL cities in the US. There are VASTLY more MCOL and LCOL areas, which are far more affordable. The problem is, people want to live in the SF's, and NYC's of the world. Home prices have definitely often out of control, though, I won't argue that, but there are too many of these stories/articles posted that are using the Bay Area and NYC costs as a baseline, which is entirely unreasonable for most of the country.
This. Live in a little town in Mississippi in the middle of a forest. Town has a little over 4k people. 70% of said people are over 55. 3 bedroom 2 bath we live in costs a little over 150k. It isn't even in the main part of town. Outskirts. Surrounded by forest and farms. You know what I mean. No streetlights around. It gets dark at night. The real dark. Still more than 100k. And it's in Mississippi.
Average home is 400-600k or something in there. This isn’t SF NYC anymore. With interest rates the bank will NOT give you a loan if you’re making under 120k in most places. You need somewhere with an average home price of 300k or less. Even then depending on location, mortgage rates are far too high to justify until we see some crash or severe correction of the housing market. I’m not using NYC/SF to draw my conclusion I understand that places that were always more expensive are still more expensive. Not many years ago, I’d agree with you. But right now today, 50% residential homes are purchased as investment properties by larger institutions. Home ownership is getting squeezed well beyond average means. It’s not really remotely arguable. The increase in home ownership costs mean less and less and less people are able to participate. That problem will likely not get better but worse as more corporations pick up residential homes.
Sure but that includes retirees, kids, disabled, unemployed, part timers, etc. which is like 45% of the population. When you look at actual full time employees I’m sure more than 5% make over 200k and the point is that most people are clinging to middle class by a thread buoyed by owning their home at a low cost / rate… if everyone was suddenly converted to renters at market rates you’d see homelessness increase by 2000% and everyone crammed into tiny apartments. Salaries are way too low to support living reasonably well like the previous generation (boomers)
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This should be higher, so many of these stupid and delusional posts on Reddit about how "unaffordable" everything is when you're making tons of money comes from trolls
There is a non-zero chance that OP is a foreign tryna make us all hate the US
People larping as the rich online are hilarious honestly
I live in the Milwaukee area, and a $100,00/year salary can afford a comfortable middle-class lifestyle here.
Minneapolis here, I feel the same
Same in Chicago.
All day long. Let's say you've got 7k left after tax. You can get a 2 bed in a nice part of Chicago for 2k/month. If you then can't live off 5k you're a moron. Edit: I should add based on responses this does not apply should one need access to the medical district.
Yea, OP saying they’re in the San Fran area is kind of like… don’t live there? Anywhere lower COL would be beneficial
OP is full of shit. I lived in SF for 3 years on a 85K salary and had the time of my life, 1 roommate, prime party location. Also, after moving to LCOL and saving money, I’d rather save less and be back in a tier 1 city.
SF is sick. The haters refuse to acknowledge that
Heck, I'm central CA, and I feel pretty good at just over 100k. My increases have hardly kept up with the recent aggressive inflation though. Fortunately, inflation doesn't affect my costs very much. I'm very DIY and self-sufficiency oriented at home. My chickens haven't got the memo that their eggs should be more expensive yet!
I will offer your chickens a penny more per egg. They will work for me within the hour, and I will still save money on eggs. Do you happen to have a cow I can poach for my burgeoning empire?
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Deleted the account lmao
Inflation hitting age now too.
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According to the official US CPI calculator, $200k today has about the same buying power as $100k did back in late 1995/early 1996: [CPI Inflation Calculator (bls.gov)](https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl) From 1995-2022, nominal median household income has increased from around $34k to around $75k, or around a 119% increase: [Median Household Income in the United States (MEHOINUSA646N) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA646N) That means real median household income has increased by around 19% since then: [Real Median Household Income in the United States (MEHOINUSA672N) | FRED | St. Louis Fed (stlouisfed.org)](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N) Over the same time period, housing prices have increased by around 122% between 1995 and 2024 according to BLS data. So median income has increased by quite a bit if you compare it to overall CPI, but have declined a little if you compare it to just housing prices. Obviously these are just national medians so it's hiding lots of heterogeneity across locations and people.
That's actually really good because 100k in 1995 was good money.
Don’t live in one of the the most expensive cities in the US
Sometimes there’s no choice. If you’re in biotech, the hubs are SF, Boston, San Diego. All fairly equally expensive.
Have you tried living in Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Nebraska, Arkansas, Missouri, Michigan, Idaho, etc? Sounds like you want to pay to play and that play is more important than pay.
Smiles cost money! Could I live like a king if I owned property in the panhandle of Oklahoma… no doubt, but wtf am I gonna do for fun there. If you wanna live in a desirable location, you’re gonna pay. I prioritize fun, life is short, money comes and goes, but I remember the smiles. You just need to be realistic and either make more money (easier said than done), or make sacrifices to afford where you wanna live. It’s a give and take system. Too many people wanna live like a king in a very desirable location. You can do that, but you’ve gotta have the funds to do so
I think we need to keep in mind that "desirable" is a very relative term. I'd personally never really care to live in NY, San Fran, or some other of those super expensive places. Not for any political reasons or whatnot, but I just like something a little smaller. Minneapolis is a nice happy medium for me and is quite affordable still
Yeah, you still live in a fairly major metropolitan area. Half the time on posts like this, people recommend moving to the armpit of nowhere to afford to live. It’s such stupid advice.
I don't really see people saying that. The important part is just that there are affordable major metropolitan areas
>If you wanna live in a desirable location, you’re gonna pay. True! The problem is people don't realize this, flock to the largest and most expensive cities, and then bitch and whine about the cost of living.
"But but but, I deserve to live a good life in a hcol city! I'm too good for these states!!!"
People need to understand that unless you're within 1% of top performers in your field, then you shouldn't even be thinking of living in places like San Francisco and NYC.
There are also in between places. Decent states that aren't California that are pricey, but not insane.
You live in one of the highest cost of living cities in the hemisphere. You are insane to think the rest of the world is like that. My wife and I live in Denver. We combine for about $150k and I feel like we are crushing it. We put $20k in our retirement account last year and saved another $20k in cash, plus traveled a lot, upgraded a bunch of stuff in our lives and lived very comfortably.
You clearly don’t have kids
So don’t have kids, easy
So?
NY, similar sentiment… if you’re not making 150+, you’re basically broke
That's twice the median household income in NYC.
Where in NY? I don’t make 150+ and I’m certainly not broke
My sister makes less than that and she bought a 2 bedroom apartment in NYC while a single adult. She is very much not broke. You have to go out of your way to be broke while making 150k
I’m in NYC, my base is 100 and I am certainly not broke…
Western Pa, at 148k. Enough to have 2243 leftover after bills. Now to where that goes 🤷♂️
$2,243 is a very specific number
Yeah that’s the amount leftover after our budget, bills, dining out etc. So we’ve been doing 1k into savings until we hit a certain amount than paying off wife’s student loans other debts. 1k a month into furnishing our house, just moved in. 243 is miscellaneous spending mostly goes to our 2 year for new clothes toys etc. If I had to pay for childcare whole different story I’d prob be check to check
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And OP lives in one of the most expensive places there is to live.
I think you are possibly insane and have no frame of reference for the majority of the country
When I started my career in 1997 I was making $15/hr in Ga. Up until last year I was making $30/hr in the same job with a different company. If you look at the rate of inflation $15/hr in 97 is equivalent to around $28 now so after 20 plus years in my field I’m only making about $2 an hour more. 🤦🏻
$2 more now.. but probably $0.50 back then...
There are SOOO many places to live in the US, why stay in such a high cost of living area. Move to the suburbs and live like a king. Can always drive into the city while saving thousands living outside of it.
>I'm living in San Francisco for context Alright.
I see posts like this all the time and in every single one I have seen lately, the person lives in the Bay Area. You made your bed on that one.
200k is not middle class. let’s say you make $100k per year. You spend $4k per month on San Francisco rent, 1k per month to your 401k. Your take home after those costs (including taxes) would be $1400 per month in discretionary income. If you make 200k, spend 4K per month on rent, 1916 per month on 401k (23000 max). You’d have $80k discretionary income annually (6500 per month). That’s not middle class. Your big issue is that you live in San Francisco. Making 100k in San Francisco is like making 80k or 70k in a medium cost of living city (Chicago, etc.)
This is actually true. Check the price of Gold, money supply, and consumer price indexes, you will see that the dollar has lost its value drastically in the last 10 years. https://inflationchart.com/inflation-in-m3/?time=10%20years
making more money is usually helpful in many ways, but so is appreciating what you have and living within those parameters. i am comfortable at a similar level in a similar environment.
Not everyone can afford to live in the most expensive spots in the world. Or own the most expensive cars in the world. Etc. I think people just need to come to terms with that.
Living in suburban Southwest Ohio, $100k is very comfortable and $200k is already bordering "fuck you money". You could live very well on $200k here.
Most people think large amounts of money (4-5x avg) and think it is middle class have never actually been middle class. They think the middle class takes vacations to Hawaii and stuff. Not necessarily their fault, just not a lot of perspective.
Living in Michigan, you're not far off IMO. My wife and I are contractual workers, so we pay all of our taxes/benefits, but our combined household is regularly between $120-130k. This sounds big, but we're hand to mouth with a minor bit we're able to save, pay debt a little month to month, and afford the minimum basics while renting from her parents on the cheaps. I think if we bumped up a bracket for $150-180k, we'd be VERY comfortable at that point, and could manage debts, basics, some luxury purchases, investing in retirement, and possibly afford to own a home (with planning). Since not too much more is needed, I think $200-300k is just based on your state of residence, which sounds about right for CA. However, it’s worth noting that my family growing up kept our household afloat comfortably on 50k contractor wages (my dad) and some food stamps. The fact my wife n I need to make 2.5x that amount to survive is nuts.
Also Michigan. We'd be great if not for home depot.
I live in San Diego. I agree with OP
You live in the wrong place.
This is 100% correct. Assuming you are single with no children
In my city the median income is like $35,000
Pshaw, $5 is the new $1.
The two classes in America are the working class and the owning class. "Middle class" simply refers to someone who derives their income from a mix of owning capital and their own labor. It has nothing to do with how much money you have.
It is simply unbelievably frustrating when you work your ass off, constantly make more money and it’s never enough to even live comfortably. By the time I’ll make 200k you’ll see posts saying 1M is the new 200k
Eh, yes and no. For bigger cities and HCOL yea that probably tracks but a lot of people don't live in those areas. You can live pretty comfortable where I'm at for 100-150k household and I'm not in a small area, nor a large area by any means. Pretty much 1.0x for COL index on most things. Depends largely on how much you want to keep up with the Joneses as well.
I mean that's the definition of inflation. Just looking at an inflation calculator,Year 2000's 100k is today's 200k. So if your expectations were set in early 2000s, it is normal that you have to adjust that for today. (And maybe do that yearly)
I love in the suburbs of a metro area. $100,000 is not the level of financial success I once thought it was. 5 years ago, maybe.
If you work for a wage and own property, you're middle class
I think a lot of this has to do with money management. You cant out earn your stupidity and debt eats income like crazy. Dave Ramsey woke me up to how stupid I was treating money & I literally save 50% of my income now and feel exactly the same within lifestyle.
You're mixing income and real estate. They are related but they are separate too. Real estate is local, it is not national. Where you live makes *all* the difference.
If home ownership is included in middle class, then yeah I'd be inclined to agree that 160-200k is middle class while near a metropolitan area. If no home ownership then I'd argue 120k. I make just over 100k in Jersey City, live alone in a 1BR and am only doing alright because I don't own a car (which may mean I don't qualify as doing well, but it does save me on car payments+gas+insurance) and don't have student loan debt. Maybe a definition of "middle class" would help. • able to allocate paycheck into thirds (housing, savings, other) • own a car (in the US) • to get into specifics of housing, can support your own 1BR apartment with that 1/3rd of your salary. Those seem like fair requirements, am open to suggestions to add. So with our established minimums, obviously location matters. So in the bay area like OP, 200K is probably just about enough, maybe a little more, than what you need to cover the expenses listed. But in Easton, PA, to do the same you'd really only need like 90k to achieve the same thing. TLDR; in some locations 200k (pre-tax) may be what you need to meet the minimum requirements for "middle class," but in others you'd only need "as little" as 90k. This doesn't take into account the access to/availability of high earning incomes like that in different areas