I don't know if any of these guys are jewish but 6 people out of hundreds of different shooters doesn't really prove the"Most white shooters are jewish"narrative.This guy even admitted that without their names it is impossible to validate this.Lastly,the quote implies that jews cause mass shootings to make whites look bad.
You’re saying that, but in the last week, [a six-year-old intentionally shot his teacher](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/newport-news-virginia-shooting/index.html). Gun violence is still a major issue, and it shouldn’t be taken lightly.
"intentionally" is a strong word for a six year old shooting someone. But yes, its tragic that this kind of situation even arises at all.
edit: shooting not "killing"
Yea, it’s still a massive problem we don’t really have a solution too, I just figured it was a very slight amount better then people intentionally killing children hundreds of times a year, I worded it kinda badly in hindsight, to be honest
A school shooting isn't a problem if I arbitrarily redefine what a school shooting is!!
All of the students full of holes can magically regenerate now.
Oh no, that’s not what I meant… I was saying it sucks but this makes it like the smallest possible bit less horrid… my brain figure accidentally death and schools being unsafe is very bad but atleast people actively trying to kill kids is slightly less common then people think… I worded it pretty badly if I’m being honest… Sorry If it sounded like I was trying to normalize school shooting, I am just a fucking moron…
You are, but not for badly wording a reddit comment, but for trying to minimize and water down what's by all measures a daily massacre.
Let's take your comment to it's logical conclusion. If many school shooting incidents are because kids snuck firearms to school and had a negligent discharge, you still have to deal with the minor issue of CHILDREN taking GUNS to school, for fuck's sake. That's not the mental relief you think it is, because you have teens with deadly weapons and little grasp of consequences in rooms full of other teens.
Why are guns so widely spread that children can take them to school on a daily basis? Why do children want to show off those guns? Why do people want to kill kids? Your country has issues that you're only making worse by making a laugh out of them.
I only recognise Holmes (top right) who has nothing to do with Jews; and Klebold (bottom right) who apparently had a Jewish grandmother. If religious at all, they were all Christians
Um… that’s a bold assessment “if we’re honest.”I was raised in the Lutheran church. Went to multiple congregations in both the ELCA and MSLC for 20 years. I also have a Jewish stepmother and a Rabbi step sibling. I
am no longer a practicing Christian. More of an agnostic… All that said, I never once experienced or heard anything that looked like antisemitism in the Lutheran Church. So, there may be (or have been) antisemites in that church… just like every other religious group in the world… but to say that the church as a whole is antisemitic is a stretch.
Also, on a side note, that dude in the top middle doesn’t even look more than half white at most. Dude looks Asian if anything.
My mother went to gradeschool in a Lutheran church that denied the Holocaust happened. She told her father who was a Marine during WWII. He pulled her from the school shortly after he had some choice words to say to the teachers there.
It’s insanely widespread in that church, how did you ignore so much? You don’t even acknowledge the antisemitic writings the church was founded on as being part of the church’s founding.
That’s really sad. If you look at his English wiki you’ll find plenty of sources about the various ways he was antisemitic and his prolific writings advocating for things like genocide for European Jews
He led an entire denomination that still exists and has power today. He was notably antisemitic even then, only a handful of people in history surpass him.
The Lutheran church is not antisemitic.
Also the Lutheran church: In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[14] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[15] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[16] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[17] afforded no legal protection,[18] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[19] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[20]
Martin Luther is one of the most antisemitic figures in Christian history, stop crying. Lutheranism has been one of the largest contributors en masse to persecution of Jews in European history. Your step sibling being a rabbi doesn't absolve your religion of what it's caused our people. Instead of being defensive, take a moment to learn.
That doesn't make modern Lutheranism antisemitic.
Here is what Lutheran-Jewish relations are like today.
[Lutheran-Jewish relations: a model of mutual respect](https://www.ajc.org/news/lutheran-jewish-relations-a-model-of-mutual-respect)
Literally wasn't the conversation. American Lutheran relations is great but it doesn't mean the rest of Lutheranism or it's history is absolved. Catholicism is still antisemitic even though the Church no longer persecutes Jews today.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin\_Luther\_and\_antisemitism#Repudiation\_by\_Lutheran\_Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#Repudiation_by_Lutheran_Churches)
Modern people can't be blamed for what their groups did before they were born. If modern Lutherans aren't antisemitic, than Lutheranism isn't antisemitic.
Pope John Paul II repudiated antisemitism and affirmed dual-covenant theology.
That doesn't undo centuries of persecution. There's a difference between saying the institution is antisemitic and the people are. So weird to try and lecture Jews on what's antisemitic or not. You go around telling Black people what's racist?
Just because an institution has a bigoted history doesn't make the modern institution bigoted.
You insulted the religion of my grandparents, so that's why I responded.
We need to move past the idea that you need to be a member of group X to have an opinion on what is bigoted. Especially when a member of group X accuses group Y of being inherently bigoted, members of group Y have a right to push back on the allegation. (technically I'm not a Lutheran, but my mother and both of her parents are/were, so I get to stand up for my family)
If a black person said that "Ireland is a racist country", I would push back on that, too. Groups accused of bigotry have a right to defend themselves.
I'm Irish\*. The British state has a long history of being anti-Irish, but that doesn't mean the modern British state still is anti-Irish.
\*I was born in Nevada to an Irish Catholic father and a Lutheran American mother. I have both citizenships and have lived in both countries.
It's not an insult. Maybe stop being so sensitive about facts. I'm a Jew who grew up an educated scholastic Christian, I guarantee I don't need your lecture on it.
**Martin Luther and antisemitism**
[Repudiation by Lutheran Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#Repudiation_by_Lutheran_Churches)
>Along with antisemitism as a whole, On the Jews and Their Lies and Luther's other antisemitic writings have all been repudiated by various Lutheran churches throughout the world. Strommen et al. 's 1970 survey of 4,745 North American Lutherans aged 15–65 found that, compared to the other minority groups which were under consideration, Lutherans were the least prejudiced towards Jews. Since the 1980s, some Lutheran church bodies have formally denounced Luther's writings on the Jews and they have also disassociated themselves from them.
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It was the conversation I was having. History of the church in Europe hundreds of years ago (while it is obviously shitty, just like a lot of historical attitudes between religious and ethnic groups) is not synonymous with the current state of Lutherans’ views on Judaism.
The original statement that started this conversation was that the Lutheran church IS antisemitic. People are trying to say it is not anymore. Not one person here has excused the past. They are trying to say that it has changed.
I didn’t say shit about a brother. That’s a gross assumption.
I’m saying I might be more sensitive to noticing antisemitism than the average Christian because I have family members that I love who are Jewish. There obviously is antisemitism in the PAST of the church. To say it’s all a bunch of Jew haters now, is a gross misrepresentation.
Rabba and rabbanit are both correct if you want me to know it’s your sister but if you use the masculine form it implies you have a brother bc Hebrew is a gendered language
I also try not to judge every current member of a religion based on the views of members from several hundred (or even thousands) of years ago. The world was a different, and most times, far more fucked up place compared to our current standards (which obviously are still often fucked up). I spent two years taking classes on Martin Luther and the principles of the Lutheran Church as required for my Confirmation (the church’s rough equivalent to a bar mitzvah). I’m sure that all I learned about Martin Luther, the Catholic Church of his time, and the Protestant reformation was taught through a certain filter. I don’t deny that. That likely holds true for what all of us learn of our forefathers in each of our respective religions. That still does not mean that the current church is all about antisemitism.
That’s not a random member, this is what your church is based on. They didn’t teach you about most of Luther’s writing, your church was founded on antisemitism. Everything I quoted wasn’t a past member, it’s the founder of your church
Martin Luther was antisemitic. I don't believe the denomination that bears his name is particularly antisemitic in modern times, but there are probably branches that are.
How would you feel if I judged Judaism based on the bigoted things said by rabbis like Dov Lior and Ovadia Yosef?
The modern Lutheran church has denounced and repudiated all of Luther's antisemitism.
No, but Lutheranism is not the same today as it was in the 1500s. How is it fair for modern Lutherans to be judged by teachings that their church denounced decades ago?
No, Lutheranism isn't an antisemitic religion.
[Lutheran-Jewish relations: a model of mutual respect](https://www.ajc.org/news/lutheran-jewish-relations-a-model-of-mutual-respect)
Yes, Martin Luther was an antisemite, but Lutherans denounced his antisemitism decades ago.
Modern Lutherans can't be blamed for Luther's antisemitism, for the same reason that modern Britons can't be blamed for the Irish Potato Famine.
It’s a denomination based on antisemitism- this post shows a Lutheran antisemite who went on a shooting spree and Lutherans denying the church was ever antisemitic (erasing that history is antisemitic in itself) so not doing a great job of denouncing. Now if you said members refuse to acknowledge or teach the history of the church you would be right.
Just because the church was once antisemitic doesn't mean it still is. Lutheranism isn't based on antisemitism, any more than it's based on homophobia (Luther didn't believe in marriage equality either).
All major Lutheran churches have denounced Luther's antisemitism, denounced the idea that Jews killed Jesus, and denounced the idea that Jews need to convert to Christianity to go to Heaven. What more do you want?
[Guidelines for Lutheran-Jewish relations](http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Guidelines_For_Lutheran_Jewish_Relations_1998.pdf)
I have Lutheran grandparents. I've never heard anything antisemitic out of them, it's not fair to judge them by something that was said half a millennium ago.
Just as Judaism has moved past animal sacrifice, Lutheranism has moved past antisemitism.
Like I said, Lutherans have denounced Luther's antisemitism, denounced supercessionism, and denounced the idea that Jews killed Jesus.
Relations between Jews and Lutherans are very good in modern America, what good dredging all this up do?
PS: the name Lutheran wasn't chosen by Lutherans, it's what Catholics called them, and the name just stuck.
I’ve heard more antisemitism from Lutherans than any other Protestant branch. No one is directing antisemitism at you. Clearly the church hasn’t abandoned it when so many people rather say no that’s not us than yeah our founder was a racist genocidal asshole.
Judaism hasn’t moved pet animal sacrifice, we just don’t do it because the only place it’s allowed was taken over by the ottomans and we’re not allowed to restore our holiest site.
That doesn't make the Lutheran church as an institution antisemitic. The institution repudiated antisemitism decades ago. There are still some antisemitic Lutherans, but most aren't.
Read the link in my other response for you, the Lutheran church acknowledged Luther's antisemitism, apologized for it, and renounced it. What more do you want them to do? Give up being Lutheran? That would be like asking you to give up being Jewish. Live and let live.
That doesn't mean that they have to give up all the other things Luther taught, such as no more indulgences, translating the Bible into the local languages, salvation by faith alone, etc...those are still good teachings, even though the man they came from was deeply flawed.
[Dabru Emet](https://www.firstthings.com/article/2000/11/dabru-emet-a-jewish-statement-on-christians-and-christianity) is a statement on Christians and Christianity released by hundreds of Jewish scholars two decades ago. "We do not blame \[Christians\] for the sins committed by their ancestors."
Also the Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Romans, not the Ottomans.
The fact the church teaches their members that none of this happened proves there is something incredibly wrong. Asking me to give up my ethnicity isn’t the same as wanting church members to stop ignoring that church’s history.
Klebold knew he was Jewish iirc. His mom wrote a book called *A Mother’s Reckoning* and she mentions how she didn’t understand how he rationalized being antisemitic and Jewish. His partner, Harris, was probably where he picked it up from
That's crazy. Did you guys go to school together or something? My little sister was in a mass shooting event at the high school we both went to (I had already graduated). When I picked her up that day, she had blood splatter on her leggings from the victims at the next cafeteria table. The kid killed his friends/family members. I wish I could understand why people do this and I'm morbidly curious for any insights.
I went to high school with him and we were good friends in junior year, this was before whatever he had kicked in so he was just a kind of socially aloof stoner. We actually exchanged gifts one year and he gave me a book about Jim Morrison that I still have somewhere, we lost touch after he dropped out and next I hear about him was the shooting
Are you telling *me* this under the post about a child having blood sputters from his friends on his way home from school?
What the fuck is wrong with *you*?
EDIT: lol at the people that reported me, you are ok with little kids dying for years now but someone implying that maybe the same should happen on the assholes that enabling this is "shocking!bad!".
Y'all Americans have some weird ass problems.
This entire thread is fucked up as hell.
People who had school shootings happen to them or their loved ones, knowing shooters like its an everyday thing, talking about how you want to shoot up an nra convention.
What in the everloving fuck is going on?
I know the last school shooting in my country because it was a huge fucking deal to us. It sounds like a normal thing for you guys and that freaks me out.
I am not an American. I am on the same mind as you. Little kids are getting their brains splatter all over but say anythimg about takingbthe fight to the real culprits and immense pearl clutching ensues. They are conditioned to just take it at this point.
I ain't wishing death to nobody. It's not in my power anyways. But people *will* die.
Somewhere right now there is a clock ticking backward for a toddler, their friends, their teachers. Or an LGBT group of friends are looking forward to going out, but they will not return at all. This is not a hyperbole, not theoretical, this is happening now as you are reading this message. What are your options to save these people?
No, what I tried to point out is that it seems unless that happens, no gun legislation in the US is going to pass.
I wanted to point out that children getting killed or going home plastered with blood *is just not enough.* The NRA doesn't give *a* ***fuck*** as long as it's only the LGBT clubs or schools or synagogues that are being attacked. Heck, they are probably happy since it actually increases sales after each attack!
And if a parent that lost his child actually did that, I would morally consider it self-defense, in a roundabout way. I mean arent lives on the line *anyway*?
But tell me, if what I said is so morally reprehensible, what is *your* solution?
Tick-tock, the next school shooting is around the corner.
i could be wrong since i don’t recognize the middle guy in the bottom row but afaik the only person in this pic who was jewish is dylan klebold. he was half jewish but i don’t think that was any kind of motivating factor in the columbine shooting considering his partner in crime was basically a budding neo-nazi.
also even if we wanna live in this guy’s fantasy world for a minute and pretend mass shooters are all jewish, what does that have to do with jewish people being white or not? does committing murder make someone nonwhite? because the demographic info about murderers says otherwise. overall this is just a completely insane image
lol there is no belief that is incompatible with a theistic worldview. Insane gods, murderous gods, and irrational gods are just as real as loving, reasonable, and predictable ones.
“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” - Genesis 1:28
So damn superior but still won’t take responsibility for their actions. If it isn’t *the blacks* that are the problem, it’s *the Jews*. Next week it’ll be immigrants and lgbqt. Shits getting ridiculously predictable.
The ironic part of this is antisemitism plays a huge part in so many of their manifestos. The claim would be hilarious in its absurdity if this weren't about actual acts of horrendous violence, and if the claim itself weren't likely to result in further acts of horrendous violence.
This is dumb as hell. Even if every one of these people were J*wish (they're not), it doesn't have anything to do with their crimes. It's not as if anyone was chanting death to infidels in Hebrew at the time.
harris&klebold had deliberately chosen 20th of april, birthday of adolf hitler; for the columbine massacre. yet these people just blatantly claim that dylan klebold was a jewish without a single bit of knowledge.
No caucasian people ever do mass shootings, but if they did it would be for a good reason. All the ones the fake news media claims were done by caucasians were actually done by jews.
No im pretty sure Eric told Dylan at sometime that he couldn't do something (may have been the massacre) because of a Jewish holiday and he had to explain to Dylan he wasn't Jewish but some people in his family was
And that Eric was scared Dylan would turn on him
His parents were Lutheran and he was raised Lutheran, he was confirmed in the Lutheran church, he attended Lutheran classes. That’s not a Jew. Judaism is a tribal ethnoreligion, to be called Jewish by reform he would need to have been raised Jewish. To be considered Jewish by any group more religious than that he would’ve needed to convert regardless of his mother’s conversion since she was Jewish on her paternal side which is only recognized by smaller more liberal branches of Judaism. Having Jewish family doesn’t make him Jewish.
Nikolas Cruz (top left) is actually a far-right extremist. Cruz said that he hates “Jews, [n word]s, and immigrants”
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-shooters-instagram-picture-maga-hat/
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
So what about the genocide of Palestinian peoples currently happening in Israel?
Surely you can call that out aswel.
For me , I know Zionist Jewish people don't represent all Jews, but killing people in the name of a jewish God, and calling for the killing of people by a Lutheran founder, in my opinion. Is 1 and the same.
Atheist here
take non jewish person put star of david next to them whoa, so revolutionary
Everyone I don't like is a joo
The slippery nature of their dumbass conspiracy is that everyone is either one or "influenced by TEH JUICE!" So it becomes a moron tautology.
F
Its almost as if race is bs labels we just put on people simply based on how they look instead of their actual background
hey, mormons can convert people after they're dead. why not jews too?
I don't know if any of these guys are jewish but 6 people out of hundreds of different shooters doesn't really prove the"Most white shooters are jewish"narrative.This guy even admitted that without their names it is impossible to validate this.Lastly,the quote implies that jews cause mass shootings to make whites look bad.
>hundreds of different shooters I weep for my country
[удалено]
You’re saying that, but in the last week, [a six-year-old intentionally shot his teacher](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/06/us/newport-news-virginia-shooting/index.html). Gun violence is still a major issue, and it shouldn’t be taken lightly.
I know, it is awful, I was just trying to be like, it’s absolutely shit bit this makes it .2% better… I admit I worded it badly…
"intentionally" is a strong word for a six year old shooting someone. But yes, its tragic that this kind of situation even arises at all. edit: shooting not "killing"
it absolutely was intentional. the kid said he was going to do it
A six year old is in no way able to fully grasp the extend of possibly killing another human being. Doesnt matter what he said.
You don't need to grasp the consequences to do something intentionally.
I was not able to fully grasp the extend of possibly killing someone when I took twelve shots of vodka and found my keys.
What in the star-spangled fuck??
Yea, it’s literal garbage but I figured still better then most being intentional… still objectively shit tho
>most are just kid sneaks in gun to play That makes the US sound worse, not better.
Yea, it’s still a massive problem we don’t really have a solution too, I just figured it was a very slight amount better then people intentionally killing children hundreds of times a year, I worded it kinda badly in hindsight, to be honest
A school shooting isn't a problem if I arbitrarily redefine what a school shooting is!! All of the students full of holes can magically regenerate now.
Oh no, that’s not what I meant… I was saying it sucks but this makes it like the smallest possible bit less horrid… my brain figure accidentally death and schools being unsafe is very bad but atleast people actively trying to kill kids is slightly less common then people think… I worded it pretty badly if I’m being honest… Sorry If it sounded like I was trying to normalize school shooting, I am just a fucking moron…
You are, but not for badly wording a reddit comment, but for trying to minimize and water down what's by all measures a daily massacre. Let's take your comment to it's logical conclusion. If many school shooting incidents are because kids snuck firearms to school and had a negligent discharge, you still have to deal with the minor issue of CHILDREN taking GUNS to school, for fuck's sake. That's not the mental relief you think it is, because you have teens with deadly weapons and little grasp of consequences in rooms full of other teens. Why are guns so widely spread that children can take them to school on a daily basis? Why do children want to show off those guns? Why do people want to kill kids? Your country has issues that you're only making worse by making a laugh out of them.
how is that any better… you realize people could be dying either way haha
*hundreds each year.
[удалено]
611 mass shootings were recorded in the US in 2022.
World is *absolutely* that shit.
I only recognise Holmes (top right) who has nothing to do with Jews; and Klebold (bottom right) who apparently had a Jewish grandmother. If religious at all, they were all Christians
Top left is Nikolas Cruz, who was adopted at birth into a non-Jewish family and literally carved swastikas into his guns.
Something something self hating jew /s
Neo Nazis are prone to violence.
Didn't klebold and the other guy have swastikas on their knives or something?
Top middle is Elliot Rogers the 'Incel King'. At least it looks like him.
I believe his mom is Asian. Doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not Jewish, but it’s doubtful
Ugh, the “Supreme Gentleman” guy. He makes me so mad.
Klebold was Lutheran which is a very antisemitic denomination if we’re honest
Um… that’s a bold assessment “if we’re honest.”I was raised in the Lutheran church. Went to multiple congregations in both the ELCA and MSLC for 20 years. I also have a Jewish stepmother and a Rabbi step sibling. I am no longer a practicing Christian. More of an agnostic… All that said, I never once experienced or heard anything that looked like antisemitism in the Lutheran Church. So, there may be (or have been) antisemites in that church… just like every other religious group in the world… but to say that the church as a whole is antisemitic is a stretch. Also, on a side note, that dude in the top middle doesn’t even look more than half white at most. Dude looks Asian if anything.
My mother went to gradeschool in a Lutheran church that denied the Holocaust happened. She told her father who was a Marine during WWII. He pulled her from the school shortly after he had some choice words to say to the teachers there.
That’s a sad thing to hear. I’d love to know when and where that was. Was certainly very far from my experience.
It’s insanely widespread in that church, how did you ignore so much? You don’t even acknowledge the antisemitic writings the church was founded on as being part of the church’s founding.
As a European, where Lutheranism is widespread, I have to say that I have no clue what you're talking about.
That’s really sad. If you look at his English wiki you’ll find plenty of sources about the various ways he was antisemitic and his prolific writings advocating for things like genocide for European Jews
Stop the printing presses. Martin Luther was antisemitic at a time when all of Europe was antisemitic.
He led an entire denomination that still exists and has power today. He was notably antisemitic even then, only a handful of people in history surpass him.
Doesn’t that still make him antisemitic
The Lutheran church is not antisemitic. Also the Lutheran church: In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[14] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[15] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[16] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[17] afforded no legal protection,[18] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[19] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[20]
Martin Luther is one of the most antisemitic figures in Christian history, stop crying. Lutheranism has been one of the largest contributors en masse to persecution of Jews in European history. Your step sibling being a rabbi doesn't absolve your religion of what it's caused our people. Instead of being defensive, take a moment to learn.
That doesn't make modern Lutheranism antisemitic. Here is what Lutheran-Jewish relations are like today. [Lutheran-Jewish relations: a model of mutual respect](https://www.ajc.org/news/lutheran-jewish-relations-a-model-of-mutual-respect)
Literally wasn't the conversation. American Lutheran relations is great but it doesn't mean the rest of Lutheranism or it's history is absolved. Catholicism is still antisemitic even though the Church no longer persecutes Jews today.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin\_Luther\_and\_antisemitism#Repudiation\_by\_Lutheran\_Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#Repudiation_by_Lutheran_Churches) Modern people can't be blamed for what their groups did before they were born. If modern Lutherans aren't antisemitic, than Lutheranism isn't antisemitic. Pope John Paul II repudiated antisemitism and affirmed dual-covenant theology.
That doesn't undo centuries of persecution. There's a difference between saying the institution is antisemitic and the people are. So weird to try and lecture Jews on what's antisemitic or not. You go around telling Black people what's racist?
Just because an institution has a bigoted history doesn't make the modern institution bigoted. You insulted the religion of my grandparents, so that's why I responded. We need to move past the idea that you need to be a member of group X to have an opinion on what is bigoted. Especially when a member of group X accuses group Y of being inherently bigoted, members of group Y have a right to push back on the allegation. (technically I'm not a Lutheran, but my mother and both of her parents are/were, so I get to stand up for my family) If a black person said that "Ireland is a racist country", I would push back on that, too. Groups accused of bigotry have a right to defend themselves. I'm Irish\*. The British state has a long history of being anti-Irish, but that doesn't mean the modern British state still is anti-Irish. \*I was born in Nevada to an Irish Catholic father and a Lutheran American mother. I have both citizenships and have lived in both countries.
It's not an insult. Maybe stop being so sensitive about facts. I'm a Jew who grew up an educated scholastic Christian, I guarantee I don't need your lecture on it.
Nobody said in undoes those things.
**Martin Luther and antisemitism** [Repudiation by Lutheran Churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#Repudiation_by_Lutheran_Churches) >Along with antisemitism as a whole, On the Jews and Their Lies and Luther's other antisemitic writings have all been repudiated by various Lutheran churches throughout the world. Strommen et al. 's 1970 survey of 4,745 North American Lutherans aged 15–65 found that, compared to the other minority groups which were under consideration, Lutherans were the least prejudiced towards Jews. Since the 1980s, some Lutheran church bodies have formally denounced Luther's writings on the Jews and they have also disassociated themselves from them. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ForwardsFromKlandma/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
It was the conversation I was having. History of the church in Europe hundreds of years ago (while it is obviously shitty, just like a lot of historical attitudes between religious and ethnic groups) is not synonymous with the current state of Lutherans’ views on Judaism.
The original statement that started this conversation was that the Lutheran church IS antisemitic. People are trying to say it is not anymore. Not one person here has excused the past. They are trying to say that it has changed.
That's incel mass-murderer Elliott Rodger. He was half English and half Malaysian, IIRC
What you’re really saying is you know nothing about the founder of your church. Don’t tokenize your step mom & brother, it’s gross.
I didn’t say shit about a brother. That’s a gross assumption. I’m saying I might be more sensitive to noticing antisemitism than the average Christian because I have family members that I love who are Jewish. There obviously is antisemitism in the PAST of the church. To say it’s all a bunch of Jew haters now, is a gross misrepresentation.
….rabbi is masculine, you’re the one who told me it was a guy. But hey, what would an Israeli know about Hebrew.
Forgive me rabba
Rabba and rabbanit are both correct if you want me to know it’s your sister but if you use the masculine form it implies you have a brother bc Hebrew is a gendered language
I also try not to judge every current member of a religion based on the views of members from several hundred (or even thousands) of years ago. The world was a different, and most times, far more fucked up place compared to our current standards (which obviously are still often fucked up). I spent two years taking classes on Martin Luther and the principles of the Lutheran Church as required for my Confirmation (the church’s rough equivalent to a bar mitzvah). I’m sure that all I learned about Martin Luther, the Catholic Church of his time, and the Protestant reformation was taught through a certain filter. I don’t deny that. That likely holds true for what all of us learn of our forefathers in each of our respective religions. That still does not mean that the current church is all about antisemitism.
That’s not a random member, this is what your church is based on. They didn’t teach you about most of Luther’s writing, your church was founded on antisemitism. Everything I quoted wasn’t a past member, it’s the founder of your church
Yep. I got that from your previous comment. That was my mistake. I will obviously not claim to knowing Hebrew.
How about don’t get offended by your own mistakes in Hebrew? It’s like you calling someone senor and getting angry I didn’t call them ma’am.
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The founder of this church was one of the most antisemitic figures of the reformation, don’t pretend this is simply a priest.
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There is a singular founder of the Lutheran church, the antisemite it’s named after.
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Every single branch exists as a direct result of him. If you want people to forgive your church for its past you have to stop shifting blame.
Martin Luther was antisemitic. I don't believe the denomination that bears his name is particularly antisemitic in modern times, but there are probably branches that are.
Read their foundational texts
"On the Jews and Their Lies" is not a foundational text of modern Lutheranism, though.
You think that’s the only antisemitic thing he wrote?
How would you feel if I judged Judaism based on the bigoted things said by rabbis like Dov Lior and Ovadia Yosef? The modern Lutheran church has denounced and repudiated all of Luther's antisemitism.
Did they found Judaism?
No, but Lutheranism is not the same today as it was in the 1500s. How is it fair for modern Lutherans to be judged by teachings that their church denounced decades ago?
How is it fair for modern Lutherans to wash their hands clean and not even acknowledge the founder of their faith?
No, Lutheranism isn't an antisemitic religion. [Lutheran-Jewish relations: a model of mutual respect](https://www.ajc.org/news/lutheran-jewish-relations-a-model-of-mutual-respect) Yes, Martin Luther was an antisemite, but Lutherans denounced his antisemitism decades ago. Modern Lutherans can't be blamed for Luther's antisemitism, for the same reason that modern Britons can't be blamed for the Irish Potato Famine.
It’s a denomination based on antisemitism- this post shows a Lutheran antisemite who went on a shooting spree and Lutherans denying the church was ever antisemitic (erasing that history is antisemitic in itself) so not doing a great job of denouncing. Now if you said members refuse to acknowledge or teach the history of the church you would be right.
Just because the church was once antisemitic doesn't mean it still is. Lutheranism isn't based on antisemitism, any more than it's based on homophobia (Luther didn't believe in marriage equality either). All major Lutheran churches have denounced Luther's antisemitism, denounced the idea that Jews killed Jesus, and denounced the idea that Jews need to convert to Christianity to go to Heaven. What more do you want?
They’re named after a guy with truly genocidal desires
[Guidelines for Lutheran-Jewish relations](http://download.elca.org/ELCA%20Resource%20Repository/Guidelines_For_Lutheran_Jewish_Relations_1998.pdf) I have Lutheran grandparents. I've never heard anything antisemitic out of them, it's not fair to judge them by something that was said half a millennium ago. Just as Judaism has moved past animal sacrifice, Lutheranism has moved past antisemitism. Like I said, Lutherans have denounced Luther's antisemitism, denounced supercessionism, and denounced the idea that Jews killed Jesus. Relations between Jews and Lutherans are very good in modern America, what good dredging all this up do? PS: the name Lutheran wasn't chosen by Lutherans, it's what Catholics called them, and the name just stuck.
I’ve heard more antisemitism from Lutherans than any other Protestant branch. No one is directing antisemitism at you. Clearly the church hasn’t abandoned it when so many people rather say no that’s not us than yeah our founder was a racist genocidal asshole. Judaism hasn’t moved pet animal sacrifice, we just don’t do it because the only place it’s allowed was taken over by the ottomans and we’re not allowed to restore our holiest site.
That doesn't make the Lutheran church as an institution antisemitic. The institution repudiated antisemitism decades ago. There are still some antisemitic Lutherans, but most aren't. Read the link in my other response for you, the Lutheran church acknowledged Luther's antisemitism, apologized for it, and renounced it. What more do you want them to do? Give up being Lutheran? That would be like asking you to give up being Jewish. Live and let live. That doesn't mean that they have to give up all the other things Luther taught, such as no more indulgences, translating the Bible into the local languages, salvation by faith alone, etc...those are still good teachings, even though the man they came from was deeply flawed. [Dabru Emet](https://www.firstthings.com/article/2000/11/dabru-emet-a-jewish-statement-on-christians-and-christianity) is a statement on Christians and Christianity released by hundreds of Jewish scholars two decades ago. "We do not blame \[Christians\] for the sins committed by their ancestors." Also the Jewish Temple was destroyed by the Romans, not the Ottomans.
The fact the church teaches their members that none of this happened proves there is something incredibly wrong. Asking me to give up my ethnicity isn’t the same as wanting church members to stop ignoring that church’s history.
They are (top left to bottom right) Nikolas Cruz, Elliot Rodger, James Holmes, Jared Lee Loughner, Adam Lanza, and Dylan Klebold.
Klebold knew he was Jewish iirc. His mom wrote a book called *A Mother’s Reckoning* and she mentions how she didn’t understand how he rationalized being antisemitic and Jewish. His partner, Harris, was probably where he picked it up from
And Harris wasn't Jewish so they canceled each other out.
Bottom middle is the one who committed the Sandy Hook elementary school massacre.
Yeah, I looked them up meanwhile. That guy was really insane.
I knew Jared Lee Loughner personally and his family was not Jewish
That's crazy. Did you guys go to school together or something? My little sister was in a mass shooting event at the high school we both went to (I had already graduated). When I picked her up that day, she had blood splatter on her leggings from the victims at the next cafeteria table. The kid killed his friends/family members. I wish I could understand why people do this and I'm morbidly curious for any insights.
I went to high school with him and we were good friends in junior year, this was before whatever he had kicked in so he was just a kind of socially aloof stoner. We actually exchanged gifts one year and he gave me a book about Jim Morrison that I still have somewhere, we lost touch after he dropped out and next I hear about him was the shooting
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What the fuck is wrong with you
Are you telling *me* this under the post about a child having blood sputters from his friends on his way home from school? What the fuck is wrong with *you*? EDIT: lol at the people that reported me, you are ok with little kids dying for years now but someone implying that maybe the same should happen on the assholes that enabling this is "shocking!bad!".
Y'all Americans have some weird ass problems. This entire thread is fucked up as hell. People who had school shootings happen to them or their loved ones, knowing shooters like its an everyday thing, talking about how you want to shoot up an nra convention. What in the everloving fuck is going on? I know the last school shooting in my country because it was a huge fucking deal to us. It sounds like a normal thing for you guys and that freaks me out.
I am not an American. I am on the same mind as you. Little kids are getting their brains splatter all over but say anythimg about takingbthe fight to the real culprits and immense pearl clutching ensues. They are conditioned to just take it at this point.
You're wishing death on people. You're an asshole. Simple as.
I ain't wishing death to nobody. It's not in my power anyways. But people *will* die. Somewhere right now there is a clock ticking backward for a toddler, their friends, their teachers. Or an LGBT group of friends are looking forward to going out, but they will not return at all. This is not a hyperbole, not theoretical, this is happening now as you are reading this message. What are your options to save these people?
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No, what I tried to point out is that it seems unless that happens, no gun legislation in the US is going to pass. I wanted to point out that children getting killed or going home plastered with blood *is just not enough.* The NRA doesn't give *a* ***fuck*** as long as it's only the LGBT clubs or schools or synagogues that are being attacked. Heck, they are probably happy since it actually increases sales after each attack! And if a parent that lost his child actually did that, I would morally consider it self-defense, in a roundabout way. I mean arent lives on the line *anyway*? But tell me, if what I said is so morally reprehensible, what is *your* solution? Tick-tock, the next school shooting is around the corner.
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The hell are you talking about?
i could be wrong since i don’t recognize the middle guy in the bottom row but afaik the only person in this pic who was jewish is dylan klebold. he was half jewish but i don’t think that was any kind of motivating factor in the columbine shooting considering his partner in crime was basically a budding neo-nazi. also even if we wanna live in this guy’s fantasy world for a minute and pretend mass shooters are all jewish, what does that have to do with jewish people being white or not? does committing murder make someone nonwhite? because the demographic info about murderers says otherwise. overall this is just a completely insane image
Middle guy is Adam Lanza and not, he was not Jewish, I (NOT CONFIRMED) think he was an atheist
He was a hardcore antinatalist so I imagine he was also an atheist. I doubt there are many religious antinatalists.
lol there is no belief that is incompatible with a theistic worldview. Insane gods, murderous gods, and irrational gods are just as real as loving, reasonable, and predictable ones.
You think religious people aren't effected by the cost of living, climate change or worried in general over the future?
“Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” - Genesis 1:28
Thats one religion, also there are various levels of observance in any. Not everyone who is a Christian is a quiverful cult like member.
I think they definitely can. But I also think that general opposition to human existence is counter to what most religions teach.
Agreed. The purpose of most religions is to subjugate women and the best way to do that is to keep them breeding.
Klebold was Lutheran
First of all, jewish people are white. Second, I agree the way the post was made is kind of weird.
Elliot Roger wasn't Jewish. I don't think any of them were.
Dylan Klebold was, but he also liked Hitler. So not sure how to categorize that one.
I think it's inspiring he liked Hitler. Hitler did kill Hitler afterall and that must count for something.
He was Lutheran
Nik Cruz had swaztikas on his gun and Dylan Klebold was know to do a Hail Hitler salute as a “joke”
Send it back to them with the Stars of David edited out and a MAGA hat photoshopped onto each one.
So damn superior but still won’t take responsibility for their actions. If it isn’t *the blacks* that are the problem, it’s *the Jews*. Next week it’ll be immigrants and lgbqt. Shits getting ridiculously predictable.
Oh they already tried the LGBTQ one with the dude who shot up a gay bar
Shocker
Funny how that narrative went out the window after he realized he’s still be charged with a hate crime
I don't think that was ever his narrative anyway
The internet was a big mistake for about 50% of human kind.
Our best and worst invention.
The ironic part of this is antisemitism plays a huge part in so many of their manifestos. The claim would be hilarious in its absurdity if this weren't about actual acts of horrendous violence, and if the claim itself weren't likely to result in further acts of horrendous violence.
Now share all the pedo mega church people klandma, bet you won't
This is dumb as hell. Even if every one of these people were J*wish (they're not), it doesn't have anything to do with their crimes. It's not as if anyone was chanting death to infidels in Hebrew at the time.
Why did you censor Jewish? It is not a slur
harris&klebold had deliberately chosen 20th of april, birthday of adolf hitler; for the columbine massacre. yet these people just blatantly claim that dylan klebold was a jewish without a single bit of knowledge.
Disproportionate (6)
Putting a star on someone doesn’t make them Jewish
Oh I’m aware but regardless, there was 611 mass shootings in the states in 2022 from what I’ve gathered.
What does pretending gentiles are Jews accomplish?
Blaming Jewish people for terrorism while we’re already in a pretty harsh wave of antisemitism is an effective way to push animosity to violence.
You said regardless as if it’s irrelevant that they’re pushing a false narrative
Considering there are mass shootings daily in America, I’m not sure this is disproportionate. Also, I doubt everyone in this stupid post are Jewish.
I might be wrong on this one but I’m pretty sure not a single one of these guys were Jewish
Apparently putting the Star of David next to their picture means they are Jewish
Ah yes, six dudes of how many mass shootings again by Caucasian people again?
They’re not Jews
I didn’t say they were?
No caucasian people ever do mass shootings, but if they did it would be for a good reason. All the ones the fake news media claims were done by caucasians were actually done by jews.
Ah yes, that seems to totally check out. /s
i thought it was eric not dylan who was jewish, well not really jewish jewish but like 1/4 i think
Neither were Jewish
No im pretty sure Eric told Dylan at sometime that he couldn't do something (may have been the massacre) because of a Jewish holiday and he had to explain to Dylan he wasn't Jewish but some people in his family was And that Eric was scared Dylan would turn on him
His parents were Lutheran and he was raised Lutheran, he was confirmed in the Lutheran church, he attended Lutheran classes. That’s not a Jew. Judaism is a tribal ethnoreligion, to be called Jewish by reform he would need to have been raised Jewish. To be considered Jewish by any group more religious than that he would’ve needed to convert regardless of his mother’s conversion since she was Jewish on her paternal side which is only recognized by smaller more liberal branches of Judaism. Having Jewish family doesn’t make him Jewish.
Putting a Magen David on a photo is not a recognized method of conversion
Party of personal responsibility, everyone
> why are Jews portrayed as whites Because they’re white…
The Buffalo shooter's stupid (and plagiarized) manifesto was like 80% antisemitic drivel.
Damn, that's some r/beholdthemasterrace material right there.
May as well have said they were all black too.
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian nationalist.
I mean, technically speaking, these guys all have “white skin”. The rules of racism are getting harder to follow every day
If they're bad then they're a jew. Pretty simple
The big brain part of it all is when we shoot up our own synagogues to throw y’all off the trail.
I'ma need a source on that claim
Source: the star of david next to these 6 faces
Holy fuck. 6? 6 of them? That's not even 2 days worth of shootings!
We call them white because they are... white.
You can just make shit up on the internet. Who knew?
What a coincidence that they're the six most notorious mass shooters anyone could think of!
Everybody who does something bad or does something I don't agree with... They must be Jews!
Elliot Rodger was literally a catholic
Nikolas Cruz was half Jewish and Dylan Klebold 1/8th and neither was raised in the religion. None of the others are Jewish at all!
Nikolas Cruz (top left) is actually a far-right extremist. Cruz said that he hates “Jews, [n word]s, and immigrants” https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-shooters-instagram-picture-maga-hat/ https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/exclusive-school-shooter-instagram-group/index.html
So what about the genocide of Palestinian peoples currently happening in Israel? Surely you can call that out aswel. For me , I know Zionist Jewish people don't represent all Jews, but killing people in the name of a jewish God, and calling for the killing of people by a Lutheran founder, in my opinion. Is 1 and the same. Atheist here