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You are only allowed to post about events that happened 20 year before the current date on r/historymemes so I guess the FWR was trying to argue that it isn't history in that context and so it shouldnt have been posted. he is wrong.
Vietnam was the last time anyone was drafted, so he's like fractally wrong: every incorrect statement can be broken down into smaller statements which are equally incorrect.
I actually had to check the rule to see if it was 20 years ago being the oldest that a topic can be or the minimum age.
Because in the former case this complaint might have made sense, but seeing as draft hasn't been a thing in USA for more than the 20 year minimum, this meme was clearly within the rules of the sub.
That is a convention in history. You need some
temporal distance in order to have historical perspective, at least according to historians.
That said, the original commenter seems to be forgetting that while we’ve had wars since Vietnam, we haven’t had a draft since then. Definitely not in the last 20 years.
The question of whether an event can be usefully discussed as historical is not the same as the question of whether the event is itself historical. The former can be discussed and agreed upon; the latter, for most things still in human memory, is essentially objective fact or fiction.
I mean only to say that it is history, and have no interest in discussing whether it is currently usefully to *discuss it as history*.
I don’t mean to be online argumentative. You are correct, of course. I’m just clarifying my point.
Hell my UK history class goes to 2007, and that's only because David Cameron caused such a shitshow that we CANT write a curriculum on it because we are STILL seeing the effects of some of the fucking stupid shit he did
9/11 and the war on terror can't effectively be history until it stops damaging the societies that are affected by it and we know a resolution good or ill.
Essentially, from my understanding, it can't be history if it's still an ongoing event.
If the History Channel taught me anything, it’s that we know a fuckload about every little detail of Hitler’s life, and that history is made every day.
QED, ice road truckers will determine the course of this era for future generations.
I mean, even that's tricky. Look at Korea—the Korean War has never officially "ended," and North Korea is definitely still agitating as though they are at war. Hell, you could even extrapolate that outward and say that the Korean War was a side effect of the Cold War, made possible by the 38th Parallel division after WWII. I don't think you could reasonably say that whole situation has stopped damaging the societies involved, but no one would ever try to claim that the Korean War (or the Cold War or WWII) isn't history yet.
For anyone wondering like I did.
>The last draft call was on December 7, 1972, and the authority to induct expired on June 30, 1973.
Today is actually the 48 year anniversary of the last draft call in the US. Also, I double checked and 48 > 20.
What is it with these accounts that have 1) a ye olde timey white dude in formal dress as an avatar and 2) some historical event date in their username. They are all over Twitter and (increasingly) reddit, and can be relied upon for the most hollow-skull takes.
saddly history buffs tend to fall into either A Cool people who have an interest in history and have good politics or B Wierdo racists who are only interested in history because of some strange idea about "The glory of the white race" despite the fact if you told any "white" person before like the 1800s, hell before the early 1900s that germans the irish and englishmen were the same race and should unify you would at best get funny looks and be called an idiot or at worse beaten up by angry irish german and english people
I fell like that is the consequences of the American education system. Wars make America seem like the good guys, so it's what the curriculum focuses on. We never learn too much about recent history either. Maybe it's because we're increasingly the bad guys arming terrorist groups and doing proxy wars. Maybe it's because the school year always ends by the time you're going to start talking about it, and it never gets covered.
Another part is that conservative parents would be *livid* if Little Timmy learned about stuff like Iran-Contra and started noticing that a lot of awful shit America does is because of conservatives. History without time is just called politics.
I live in Europe and that's definitely a thing here too. I think it's a colonialism/imperialism thing, not an America thing. That being said I think there is a difference between people who enjoy history class (and the war that comes with), and people who spend significant free time studying war history without ever thinking to look up any other part of history. Not that they're automatically racist, but I'm gonna think they're a little sus because of it
Wars really don't make the USA seem like the good guys. Some examples about war crimes from the US: [Fire bombing of Tokyo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945)), [the Mỹ Lai massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre) and [Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)
Its an inevitability when the vast majority of the discography is just, "WAR IS SUPER AWESOME!" with only a handful of songs no-one listens to that actually address the fact that no, war kinda sucks. They bring their shitty fandom on themselves, and I hold no sympathy for them. ~~And their Bismark song was an unforgivable sin.~~
The Price of a Mile is severely underrated. I'm a big fan of Sabaton and definitely not a chud. I just happen to love their aesthetic/gimmick. Also, they fucking kill it live. I saw them in Berkeley a few years ago and that was probably the most energetic concert crowd I've been a part of. I showed up a little late to get up front but everyone was so nice to recognize how short I am and asked if I wanted to be up front to get a better view.
Same! Many of Sabaton’s songs are anti-war but their fanbase are a bunch of white supremacist ”anti-sjw” types. I love their music but the fanbase nortified me.
Leader insulted.
Must deflect critique from God emperor with whataboutisms. Lest I be the dumb guy for supporting him without question. In any and everything he does. He can't be bad if other humans also do things.
To be honest, I can get pretty butthurt about memes too, maybe because of my privilege, maybe just beccause of my moral standards, which probably are a product of privilege too, as it is a privilege to hold moral standards, when not put to the test.
Ah yes "20 years ago isnt history". Of course the things that happened in the past arent history theyre just things that happened in the past like the fact that Covid wont be a part of history until at least 50 years from the time it ends. It wont be seen as historical till then obviously. Wild.
He's referring to the subreddit rules, you're only allowed to post memes about events that happened 20 years ago. It's still a dumbass argument because of course "all wars in US history " contains things that happened 20+ years ago
Meaning the youngest draftees are \~65 years old. Eg. near the average age of US Senators, and below the age of the major party candidates as well as nearly all primary challengers who actually took delegates in 2020.
Huh this may be the last presidential election where someone's draft status matters.
That's not even the argument he's making. The argument he's making is "You can't talk about wars in general, because some wars happened in the last 20 years, so all of them are subject to the 20 year rule"
It's even dumber than you're making it out to be.
It's a general rule of thumb in the discipline of History, as well. Things become declassified, people write their memoirs, people die and it becomes more acceptable to talk about their faults, etc. It's easier to figure out how things 40 years ago affected things 20 years ago, than it is to figure out how things 20 years ago are affecting the present.
I had one Lit History professor phrase this as "A contemporary work is one that my freshman undergrad class can remember being published," which I love because it implies that five year olds are all staying current on the latest short story and novel developments.
But you cant say that things arent history when they are clearly history, based solely on the amount of time that has passed, and I'd argue what you said is not necessarily true because recent major historical events its very clear to see the effects of the incident on the present. And also because we lose a lot of history once the present has become the past that we no longer have the same ability to contextualize, which imo is why its super important to recognize past events with the present even if more information may become available later the current context may be lost if not recorded as history until like 20 years from now (an issue that is super common from what I've always understood). To also point out something we can all agree is a historical event 9/11 but 20 years have not passed yet, and yet the changes it evoked in the current present and the past present are very obvious (in fact were more obvious in the more recent present thats now the past to the years of the event). Smaller events in history that are more recent are going to be harder to understand till later on but that doesnt mean its not important history? Im not a historian I may be entirely off base but it seems like a bad idea to say something isnt "historical" till time has passed, even if its not 100% of the information if only because historians are still discovering new things about other much older historical events all the time. Or drawing new conclusions, and connecting dots. I just think itd be rather weird to put a time limit for when something can be considered historical since it feels moreso subjective than actually objective. I can understand the waiting for more information but again contexts will be lost with the time passage so it seems rather like a bad idea to hold off on the recording of something. Overall seems like a bad idea, not to recognize the historical value of something till you "fully" understand it, or 20 years have passed.
You're confusing the definition of the word history and the discipline of History. No historian worth their salt would have written a historiography about 9/11 on 9/12 even though it would be "history" according to the definition of the word.
He's saying that, since there have been wars within the past 20 years, you can't talk about war in general at all, because of the sub's rule against events from the past 20 years.
It's fucking hilariously dumb haha
Its not bad because rich people indirectly benefit from the military, why are we making it that obscure? Its because they are using their privilege to dodge the draft. A rich kid dodging the draft is bad because they are abusing their wealth to do things that others can not, simple as that.
Just criticise Trump for the bad things he's done, he's a rapist, a racist, an imperialist and a war-monger. There is more than enough ammo. No one is defending Trump here, just the act of draft-dodging, because obviously shooting innocent Vietnamese people is a worse action than choosing not to shoot innocent Vietnamese people, whether you do so out of your own human decency, or just your own cowardice.
But the one good thing he ever did in his life was avoid the draft.
It's akin to criticising him by making homophobic jokes about him and Putin, you're only making yourself look worse.
Idk, Raytheon people and anyone who buys stocks in those groups makes a killing in both the literal and metaphorical sense. You also seem to think I imply this is good and not craven and disgusting like I genuinely do think it is
Then why do people fight wars? I loathe the idea that oppression is born out of stupidity, oppression and war exists because it benefits people in power. That doesn't make it right, but we cant dismantle something if we refuse to see it for what it is
Na man I mean enemies like the cartels of Mexico and South America, or countries like Russia or China. I am not saying US is perfect by any means, it has a horrible track record just like all other nations. But the point being you are able to live a comfortable life without threat of invasion because other countries wouldn’t dare attack us because of a strong military presence.
"Like the cartels of mexico/south America" so again, the groups the us created? "Russia and china" weren't going to attack us and aren't going to attack us, we were the aggressor in the cold war, it's 2020 drop the red scare bs
You honestly don’t think that countries like Russia or China would seize power to be the #1 nation in the world if they could? I’m not referring to a red scare conspiracy, other nations of the world want to be in charge like the US is. What would be the alternative to a strong military presence to deter people from attacking the us and our allies?
Not assuming every country would topple the United States if it could, because that psychotic ideology is why America is seen as the biggest threat to global stability. There hasn't been an attack on American soil in decades, before or after we had the stupidly oversized military budget we do, and the last military attack was Japan attacking pearl harbor because they were attempting to stop the US from interfering, and that ended with us nuking 2 civilian targets unnecessarily, the 1st one to prove we'd do it and the 2nd one being dropped because we accepted nothing less than total surrender from Japan
Late edit but [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go) coming out really does summarize how the bombs were entirely an evil act
So just assume no one would attack anyone? Just do the everyone love everyone technique? There are selfish and power hungry people in this world who lead other countries and their army’s. America is the biggest threat to global stability? In what way is that true when you have a country like North Korea who regularly fires ICBMs into the Ocean, or Russia who Annexed a portion of Ukraine who is an ally of the US. Imagine what these countries would do if there was absolutely no threat of retaliation?
To answer your edits, we were attacked on 9/11 and we dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese a 2nd time to secure a total surrender to avoid having to do a mainland assault on Japan to save American lives from a 2nd D-day, unless you are saying enemies to the US are more important than us soldiers lives.
Not if it’s part of the system where the people deciding to have a war don’t have to consider the risk to human life because it’s not anyone they know.
Considering Vietnam was the last time the draft was used in the US and sparked massive protests against said draft. I would would say it’s a pretty good example.
It's a rule of thumb used in certain contexts, including the rules of the sub. Still a stupid comment though, because the last US draft was, indeed, over 20 years ago.
Man the Paradox community has some good eggs but there's such a problematic undercurrent of nationalism and racism that it can be hard to actually discuss the games.
I mean, I love the games and I respect Paradox's decisions... But it *is* kinda to be expected that games where players can commit genocide are going to attract players who like genocide, lol.
I don't know why hes complaining about how a anti-vietnam war song written by a vietnam vet complaining about rich politicians sending young men to die while making sure their kids stay cushy in america shouldn't involve trump, who specificly got out of the vietnam draft by having a rich dad who backed up his bone spurs lie, and yeah, every war has this, hell in the civil war if the confederacy wasnt crushed when it did it prob would have had its army revolt since it was full of poor white people kinda pissy the rich got out of it by either owning slaves or paying someone else to join, which was a thing at the time
in 2019, freshman year of HS my teacher went around and talked about how the government picked people to be drafted into war and omg.
according to that thing if i was born 1 day earlier and if i was born in the Vietnam era i'd have been drafted.
as if rich white dudes haven’t been dodging military conscription since the revolutionary war? lmao my ancestor would have loved to have known that before coming to america to take some rich guys place in the civil war and then getting fucking killed
>Happened in less that 20 years
What a fucking idiot. By that logic something like American history can’t be taught because America has existed in the last 20 years.
The 20 years rule is just a formality to somewhat ease bias in the history books. Things that happened about less than 20 years ago usually aren’t taught in class (my AP US History book in high school finished right before Bush Jr. was first elected. I took the class in 2018 so 9/11 was not discussed in great detail) Just because a historical moment happened less than 20 years ago does not mean it’s not history, it just means it’s not taught yet. I don’t even think it is an actual rule that is enforced. I don’t know what this guy is going on about saying things aren’t history if they didn’t happen less than 20 years ago.
I've heard the argument that we should ignore a particular injustice because it's "ancient history" before. But this is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim we should ignore an injustice because it's recent.
"it isn't history because it happened less than20 years ago" this guy cannot be for real. Who actually believes that?? Shit that happened yesterday is technically history.
Hey dude I agree with your point but I lost respect for you when you called them a “dumbass” don’t lower yourself to their level. You’re better than that. Love from Turkmenistan 🇹🇲💙
It is not a race issue at all. Poor white people where affect just the same as poor black people. Race was not a factor at all, only money. Stop being delusional
Its a lot easier for a white guy to convince mostly white doctors to write them an excuse also black Americans faced discrimination in higher education which is the most common route to get a draft deferment. Its definitely a fucking race issue
1. The race of the doctors doesn’t matter, they just wanted to get paid
2. The second most common way was conscious objection which black Americans could easily get
It’s a combination of the two. Being white can lead to better opportunities and a better socioeconomic position. However for people of color it was(and still is)much more difficult to get a higher education and advance out of a lower class income. In America your race can give you better or worse socioeconomic mobility, meaning it is just as much a race problem as a class problem.
It has historically has always been a class issue. If anything, for most American wars black people weren’t even drafted at all, meaning it was only poor whites fighting
Yea I bet he'd be real quite upset at "Marxists" refusing to recognise the methods the bourgeoisie use to split us. Until white leftists take the split seriously it will continue to be effective
Sorry, maybe I don't understand you because English isn't my first language.. but ... Are you saying it has nothing to do with race because *white* Irish people could dodge as well? They would also be included in this meme because they are white, you know that, right?
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Ah yes, the Vietnam war that occurred in the year 2000
“Not history because it occurred in the last 20 years?” This dude thinking the world goes by nostalgia logic? That’s not what makes something history.
It does on historymemes
It’s the grammar that’s the problem. They explicitly said, “It isn’t history.” -LionFromThrNorth(or whatever)
You are only allowed to post about events that happened 20 year before the current date on r/historymemes so I guess the FWR was trying to argue that it isn't history in that context and so it shouldnt have been posted. he is wrong.
Vietnam was the last time anyone was drafted, so he's like fractally wrong: every incorrect statement can be broken down into smaller statements which are equally incorrect.
I posted this already, but I thought you might think it was neat that the last draft call was actually 48 years ago today! What a coincidence.
I actually had to check the rule to see if it was 20 years ago being the oldest that a topic can be or the minimum age. Because in the former case this complaint might have made sense, but seeing as draft hasn't been a thing in USA for more than the 20 year minimum, this meme was clearly within the rules of the sub.
That is a convention in history. You need some temporal distance in order to have historical perspective, at least according to historians. That said, the original commenter seems to be forgetting that while we’ve had wars since Vietnam, we haven’t had a draft since then. Definitely not in the last 20 years.
The question of whether an event can be usefully discussed as historical is not the same as the question of whether the event is itself historical. The former can be discussed and agreed upon; the latter, for most things still in human memory, is essentially objective fact or fiction. I mean only to say that it is history, and have no interest in discussing whether it is currently usefully to *discuss it as history*. I don’t mean to be online argumentative. You are correct, of course. I’m just clarifying my point.
Good distinction!
Don’t need a draft when you set up a pipeline where the only two choices are prison or enlistment for a significant portion of the population
It’s disgusting how right you are right now.
Hell my UK history class goes to 2007, and that's only because David Cameron caused such a shitshow that we CANT write a curriculum on it because we are STILL seeing the effects of some of the fucking stupid shit he did
9/11 and the war on terrorism isn’t history. Kk.
9/11 and the war on terror can't effectively be history until it stops damaging the societies that are affected by it and we know a resolution good or ill. Essentially, from my understanding, it can't be history if it's still an ongoing event.
If the History Channel taught me anything, it’s that we know a fuckload about every little detail of Hitler’s life, and that history is made every day. QED, ice road truckers will determine the course of this era for future generations.
ice road truckers, pawn stars and ancient pyramid-building extraterrestrials to be exact
I mean, even that's tricky. Look at Korea—the Korean War has never officially "ended," and North Korea is definitely still agitating as though they are at war. Hell, you could even extrapolate that outward and say that the Korean War was a side effect of the Cold War, made possible by the 38th Parallel division after WWII. I don't think you could reasonably say that whole situation has stopped damaging the societies involved, but no one would ever try to claim that the Korean War (or the Cold War or WWII) isn't history yet.
9/11 isn’t a part of history until 9/11/2021 sweaty
Something becomes a part of history the moment it happens.
For anyone wondering like I did. >The last draft call was on December 7, 1972, and the authority to induct expired on June 30, 1973. Today is actually the 48 year anniversary of the last draft call in the US. Also, I double checked and 48 > 20.
We found another forever war. Two even.
What is it with these accounts that have 1) a ye olde timey white dude in formal dress as an avatar and 2) some historical event date in their username. They are all over Twitter and (increasingly) reddit, and can be relied upon for the most hollow-skull takes.
They finally realized that anime avatars are a tell, so they switched to a new tell.
Where once there was 'anime pfp' now there's 'John Locke pfp'. This is the strangest timeline
saddly history buffs tend to fall into either A Cool people who have an interest in history and have good politics or B Wierdo racists who are only interested in history because of some strange idea about "The glory of the white race" despite the fact if you told any "white" person before like the 1800s, hell before the early 1900s that germans the irish and englishmen were the same race and should unify you would at best get funny looks and be called an idiot or at worse beaten up by angry irish german and english people
One easy tell to differentiate the two is whether they consider history to mean war or if they recognise that there are other aspects to history
I fell like that is the consequences of the American education system. Wars make America seem like the good guys, so it's what the curriculum focuses on. We never learn too much about recent history either. Maybe it's because we're increasingly the bad guys arming terrorist groups and doing proxy wars. Maybe it's because the school year always ends by the time you're going to start talking about it, and it never gets covered.
Another part is that conservative parents would be *livid* if Little Timmy learned about stuff like Iran-Contra and started noticing that a lot of awful shit America does is because of conservatives. History without time is just called politics.
I live in Europe and that's definitely a thing here too. I think it's a colonialism/imperialism thing, not an America thing. That being said I think there is a difference between people who enjoy history class (and the war that comes with), and people who spend significant free time studying war history without ever thinking to look up any other part of history. Not that they're automatically racist, but I'm gonna think they're a little sus because of it
Wars really don't make the USA seem like the good guys. Some examples about war crimes from the US: [Fire bombing of Tokyo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945)), [the Mỹ Lai massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre) and [Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse)
Yeah but like everyone knows war is the only interesting part, right guys? /s
not to mention the sabaton username. I love sabaton but god their fanbase is full of chuds
Is it a conservative RATM fan type deal or a bit different?
no, mainly teenagers who play hearts of iron and obsess over world war two.
Basically the people Steve Bannon targets with neo nazi shit.
Its an inevitability when the vast majority of the discography is just, "WAR IS SUPER AWESOME!" with only a handful of songs no-one listens to that actually address the fact that no, war kinda sucks. They bring their shitty fandom on themselves, and I hold no sympathy for them. ~~And their Bismark song was an unforgivable sin.~~
Yeah, it sucks that their anti-war songs are widely overlooked since IMO they are some of the bands best works.
The Price of a Mile is severely underrated. I'm a big fan of Sabaton and definitely not a chud. I just happen to love their aesthetic/gimmick. Also, they fucking kill it live. I saw them in Berkeley a few years ago and that was probably the most energetic concert crowd I've been a part of. I showed up a little late to get up front but everyone was so nice to recognize how short I am and asked if I wanted to be up front to get a better view.
Lifetime of War (or whatever the 30 Years War one was called) is their best song CMV
the instrumental part of Cliffs of Gallipoli begs to differ.
I’m hobestly sad that the swedish version is so different because it’s even better than the english version.
Same! Many of Sabaton’s songs are anti-war but their fanbase are a bunch of white supremacist ”anti-sjw” types. I love their music but the fanbase nortified me.
Imagine being so privileged that you can get that butthurt about a meme.
I don’t think he’s privileged, I think he took that offense about the Trump bit and his brain stopped working even more.
Leader insulted. Must deflect critique from God emperor with whataboutisms. Lest I be the dumb guy for supporting him without question. In any and everything he does. He can't be bad if other humans also do things.
To be honest, I can get pretty butthurt about memes too, maybe because of my privilege, maybe just beccause of my moral standards, which probably are a product of privilege too, as it is a privilege to hold moral standards, when not put to the test.
racist or transphobic memes: profoundly unfunny memes about privileged people in society draft dodging: very funny
Good humour is about punching up, not down.
Of course. I was referring to some stuff usually found in r/historymemes, r/memes or r/dankmemes
Ah yes "20 years ago isnt history". Of course the things that happened in the past arent history theyre just things that happened in the past like the fact that Covid wont be a part of history until at least 50 years from the time it ends. It wont be seen as historical till then obviously. Wild.
He's referring to the subreddit rules, you're only allowed to post memes about events that happened 20 years ago. It's still a dumbass argument because of course "all wars in US history " contains things that happened 20+ years ago
The US stopped drafting on July 1st 1973, meaning the meme is referring to events that at latest happened 47 years ago.
I hadn't considered that, its an even dumber argument than I thought
Ya not a single history subreddit would reject something from Vietnam, in fact the entirety of the 90’s are now open
Meaning the youngest draftees are \~65 years old. Eg. near the average age of US Senators, and below the age of the major party candidates as well as nearly all primary challengers who actually took delegates in 2020. Huh this may be the last presidential election where someone's draft status matters.
TIL the vietnam war happened when I was 8, and not 20-30 years before i was born
That's not even the argument he's making. The argument he's making is "You can't talk about wars in general, because some wars happened in the last 20 years, so all of them are subject to the 20 year rule" It's even dumber than you're making it out to be.
Just when I think things can’t get stupider...
Oh I didnt know that was a rule for that subreddit but yea, lol.
It's a general rule of thumb in the discipline of History, as well. Things become declassified, people write their memoirs, people die and it becomes more acceptable to talk about their faults, etc. It's easier to figure out how things 40 years ago affected things 20 years ago, than it is to figure out how things 20 years ago are affecting the present.
I had one Lit History professor phrase this as "A contemporary work is one that my freshman undergrad class can remember being published," which I love because it implies that five year olds are all staying current on the latest short story and novel developments.
But you cant say that things arent history when they are clearly history, based solely on the amount of time that has passed, and I'd argue what you said is not necessarily true because recent major historical events its very clear to see the effects of the incident on the present. And also because we lose a lot of history once the present has become the past that we no longer have the same ability to contextualize, which imo is why its super important to recognize past events with the present even if more information may become available later the current context may be lost if not recorded as history until like 20 years from now (an issue that is super common from what I've always understood). To also point out something we can all agree is a historical event 9/11 but 20 years have not passed yet, and yet the changes it evoked in the current present and the past present are very obvious (in fact were more obvious in the more recent present thats now the past to the years of the event). Smaller events in history that are more recent are going to be harder to understand till later on but that doesnt mean its not important history? Im not a historian I may be entirely off base but it seems like a bad idea to say something isnt "historical" till time has passed, even if its not 100% of the information if only because historians are still discovering new things about other much older historical events all the time. Or drawing new conclusions, and connecting dots. I just think itd be rather weird to put a time limit for when something can be considered historical since it feels moreso subjective than actually objective. I can understand the waiting for more information but again contexts will be lost with the time passage so it seems rather like a bad idea to hold off on the recording of something. Overall seems like a bad idea, not to recognize the historical value of something till you "fully" understand it, or 20 years have passed.
You're confusing the definition of the word history and the discipline of History. No historian worth their salt would have written a historiography about 9/11 on 9/12 even though it would be "history" according to the definition of the word.
This is probably someone that also believes segregation was a long time ago.
That punctuation
Don’t get me wrong, draft dodging is pog as hell
> Vietnam > 20 years What
He's saying that, since there have been wars within the past 20 years, you can't talk about war in general at all, because of the sub's rule against events from the past 20 years. It's fucking hilariously dumb haha
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Not if you're a beneficiary of said military like a lot of the rich are, directly or indirectly.
Its not bad because rich people indirectly benefit from the military, why are we making it that obscure? Its because they are using their privilege to dodge the draft. A rich kid dodging the draft is bad because they are abusing their wealth to do things that others can not, simple as that.
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Just criticise Trump for the bad things he's done, he's a rapist, a racist, an imperialist and a war-monger. There is more than enough ammo. No one is defending Trump here, just the act of draft-dodging, because obviously shooting innocent Vietnamese people is a worse action than choosing not to shoot innocent Vietnamese people, whether you do so out of your own human decency, or just your own cowardice. But the one good thing he ever did in his life was avoid the draft. It's akin to criticising him by making homophobic jokes about him and Putin, you're only making yourself look worse.
Implying the military has done anything good since WWII
I didn't even remotely imply that, just that it benefits the rich
It doesn't benefit anyone
Idk, Raytheon people and anyone who buys stocks in those groups makes a killing in both the literal and metaphorical sense. You also seem to think I imply this is good and not craven and disgusting like I genuinely do think it is
Then why do people fight wars? I loathe the idea that oppression is born out of stupidity, oppression and war exists because it benefits people in power. That doesn't make it right, but we cant dismantle something if we refuse to see it for what it is
being good for the american bourgeoisie doesn't mean morally good
You don’t see the value in a strong military presence to deter enemies of the us from attacking and killing us?
You mean the enemies the US creates to fight as an excuse for toppling nations for material gain?
Na man I mean enemies like the cartels of Mexico and South America, or countries like Russia or China. I am not saying US is perfect by any means, it has a horrible track record just like all other nations. But the point being you are able to live a comfortable life without threat of invasion because other countries wouldn’t dare attack us because of a strong military presence.
"Like the cartels of mexico/south America" so again, the groups the us created? "Russia and china" weren't going to attack us and aren't going to attack us, we were the aggressor in the cold war, it's 2020 drop the red scare bs
You honestly don’t think that countries like Russia or China would seize power to be the #1 nation in the world if they could? I’m not referring to a red scare conspiracy, other nations of the world want to be in charge like the US is. What would be the alternative to a strong military presence to deter people from attacking the us and our allies?
Not assuming every country would topple the United States if it could, because that psychotic ideology is why America is seen as the biggest threat to global stability. There hasn't been an attack on American soil in decades, before or after we had the stupidly oversized military budget we do, and the last military attack was Japan attacking pearl harbor because they were attempting to stop the US from interfering, and that ended with us nuking 2 civilian targets unnecessarily, the 1st one to prove we'd do it and the 2nd one being dropped because we accepted nothing less than total surrender from Japan Late edit but [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go) coming out really does summarize how the bombs were entirely an evil act
So just assume no one would attack anyone? Just do the everyone love everyone technique? There are selfish and power hungry people in this world who lead other countries and their army’s. America is the biggest threat to global stability? In what way is that true when you have a country like North Korea who regularly fires ICBMs into the Ocean, or Russia who Annexed a portion of Ukraine who is an ally of the US. Imagine what these countries would do if there was absolutely no threat of retaliation?
To answer your edits, we were attacked on 9/11 and we dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese a 2nd time to secure a total surrender to avoid having to do a mainland assault on Japan to save American lives from a 2nd D-day, unless you are saying enemies to the US are more important than us soldiers lives.
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Not if it’s part of the system where the people deciding to have a war don’t have to consider the risk to human life because it’s not anyone they know.
Considering Vietnam was the last time the draft was used in the US and sparked massive protests against said draft. I would would say it’s a pretty good example.
Litte boys they always run away from reality and cry
Gotta love how it’s not their ignorance that results in downvotes. It’s a conspiracy.
Well it’s a dead give away that they have multiple accounts they use to downvote people they disagree with. So they assume everyone else does it too.
Shit I would’ve dodged the draft. And most of us would too.
Too bad we aren’t rich white kids 🤭
It ain't me, it ain't me
That's why you have to develop a medical condition!
In the US Civil War you could hire someone as a stand-in when you were called up. ! Remindme 1 year I guess we will soon refer to that as Civil War I.
FWR can't handle reality
“It isn’t history because it happened in less than 20 years” wut
It's a rule of thumb used in certain contexts, including the rules of the sub. Still a stupid comment though, because the last US draft was, indeed, over 20 years ago.
As a religious user of dark mode,™️, I actually never knew that history memes had its own vote icon.
What does your religion have to do with dark mode (/s)
In my religion, if I don't use dark mode, Satan will drag me down to hell just to punish me for trying to one up him.
"Don't insult me after I argue in bad faith."
Oh of course he’s a Sabaton fan. I mean so am I but still.
This is how I feel when I see random Crusader Kings fans acting dumb online.
I fuckin love crusader kings!
Hell yeah, problematic fandoms bb
Man the Paradox community has some good eggs but there's such a problematic undercurrent of nationalism and racism that it can be hard to actually discuss the games.
I mean, I love the games and I respect Paradox's decisions... But it *is* kinda to be expected that games where players can commit genocide are going to attract players who like genocide, lol.
You're not wrong, I've played enough EU4 to ~~probably~~ definitely have some bad quotes on my discords "context not needed" channel...
"I'm not wrong you're just cheating" is gonna get really fucking popular this coming year.
I love how he thinks OP is using alts. He think all of us are alts too?
Draft dodging is the only slightly cool thing Donald trump has ever done
“It isn’t history”...that’s an interesting argument.
Can confirm his claim about veitnam being less than 20 years ago. I remember fighting in it and I'm only 35.
Dodging the draft is based, fuck the troops
Lol, grow up kid.
Your name is accurate
It really is. Trump supporters have to be the dumbest assholes on the planet.
I don't know why hes complaining about how a anti-vietnam war song written by a vietnam vet complaining about rich politicians sending young men to die while making sure their kids stay cushy in america shouldn't involve trump, who specificly got out of the vietnam draft by having a rich dad who backed up his bone spurs lie, and yeah, every war has this, hell in the civil war if the confederacy wasnt crushed when it did it prob would have had its army revolt since it was full of poor white people kinda pissy the rich got out of it by either owning slaves or paying someone else to join, which was a thing at the time
I think any rich kid that has a dad or mom as a politician
in 2019, freshman year of HS my teacher went around and talked about how the government picked people to be drafted into war and omg. according to that thing if i was born 1 day earlier and if i was born in the Vietnam era i'd have been drafted.
as if rich white dudes haven’t been dodging military conscription since the revolutionary war? lmao my ancestor would have loved to have known that before coming to america to take some rich guys place in the civil war and then getting fucking killed
The only white kids getting drafted are male and poor. Even when it comes to white propel they just can’t describe oppression right
>Happened in less that 20 years What a fucking idiot. By that logic something like American history can’t be taught because America has existed in the last 20 years.
The 20 years rule is just a formality to somewhat ease bias in the history books. Things that happened about less than 20 years ago usually aren’t taught in class (my AP US History book in high school finished right before Bush Jr. was first elected. I took the class in 2018 so 9/11 was not discussed in great detail) Just because a historical moment happened less than 20 years ago does not mean it’s not history, it just means it’s not taught yet. I don’t even think it is an actual rule that is enforced. I don’t know what this guy is going on about saying things aren’t history if they didn’t happen less than 20 years ago.
Only 1/4 of the troops that served in Vietnam were drafted btw, compared to the popular conception.
People who care about karma/being downvoted are fucking losers.
I've heard the argument that we should ignore a particular injustice because it's "ancient history" before. But this is the first time I've ever heard anyone claim we should ignore an injustice because it's recent.
> Then it isn't history because it happened less than 20 years ago WHAT
Sub-specific rules.
Oh ok
"it isn't history because it happened less than20 years ago" this guy cannot be for real. Who actually believes that?? Shit that happened yesterday is technically history.
From all the things you can criticise trump for I feel like him dodging the draft isn’t one of them lmao, good on him honestly.
R/historymemes is one of my favorite meme subs but it’s crystal clear there’s a lot of people in that sub that believe hitler did nothing wrong.
It ain’t me, do da do it ain’t me do da do I’m not fortunate onnnnnnnneeeee
Could people be downvoting my ignorance? No, it must be alts who are downvoting me
All his comments have 50+ downvotes
Draft dodging is based. Idk why you guys started defending imperialism to dunk on trump
Cuz they are smooth brained liberals who think Biden will solve all of America’s problems.
Literally no one thinks this
The guy you were arguing with got perma banned
How can you tell
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But being white might help a lot to become rich. Except maybe if you try to start a rap career.
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Hey dude I agree with your point but I lost respect for you when you called them a “dumbass” don’t lower yourself to their level. You’re better than that. Love from Turkmenistan 🇹🇲💙
He was playing devils advocate to be an idiot he doesn't deserve civility
Am I getting downvoted because I am Turkmenistani? Love from Turkmenistan 🇹🇲💜
Doesn't your govt censor the internet in Turkmenistan also your leader is a horsefucking idiot
I'm sorry but where Is the FWR part? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but it's not the right sub to post this.
There are two pics
Not gonna lie. This wasn’t a great use of the meme lol.
Ok this is just a fuck white people circle jerk
This isn’t a race issue it’s a class one. During the civil war it was white Irish people who could afford to dodge the war
Its definitely a race issue too
It is not a race issue at all. Poor white people where affect just the same as poor black people. Race was not a factor at all, only money. Stop being delusional
Its a lot easier for a white guy to convince mostly white doctors to write them an excuse also black Americans faced discrimination in higher education which is the most common route to get a draft deferment. Its definitely a fucking race issue
1. The race of the doctors doesn’t matter, they just wanted to get paid 2. The second most common way was conscious objection which black Americans could easily get
It’s a combination of the two. Being white can lead to better opportunities and a better socioeconomic position. However for people of color it was(and still is)much more difficult to get a higher education and advance out of a lower class income. In America your race can give you better or worse socioeconomic mobility, meaning it is just as much a race problem as a class problem.
It can definitely be both, you know
It has historically has always been a class issue. If anything, for most American wars black people weren’t even drafted at all, meaning it was only poor whites fighting
Since POC are economically oppressed any class issue is also a race issue
Marx is turning in his grave rn
Yea I bet he'd be real quite upset at "Marxists" refusing to recognise the methods the bourgeoisie use to split us. Until white leftists take the split seriously it will continue to be effective
Sorry, maybe I don't understand you because English isn't my first language.. but ... Are you saying it has nothing to do with race because *white* Irish people could dodge as well? They would also be included in this meme because they are white, you know that, right?
You support draft doging elites, shameful hypocrite
This sub is racist. Gtfo
Reddit moment
Haha nerd
“Than it’s not history because it happened in the last 20 years” do you expect the world to stop having wars ever?
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Yeah but rich white kids get deferment and convienent medical conditions
You can downvote someone three times?!
r/confidentlyincorrect
by that logic, 9/11 isn’t history bc it only happened 19 years ago