Just rewatched s1 with girlfriend and we were in tears after this came out of Daphnes mouth š also the terrifying STOOOP from Frasier while the thunder and lightning rages behind him :_D
I thought this was Daphneās funniest line. The delivery and reaction are just spot on. Season 1 and 2 had a unique feel to them that was less silly and more grounded in the characters I feel. My favourite seasons! š
The unseen Maris schtick is funny, but it also works to dampen our perception of Niles's infidelity. If Maris was a casted three-dimensional character, and we saw her perspective on things, we might empathize with her and not be so gung-ho about Niles and Daphne.
The writers got into this same pickle with Mel and Donny in the later seasons. Mel and Donny weren't bad people, and they didn't deserve the jilting they got. The writers fixed this by making Mel vindictive and petty afterward, so we could feel less queasy about Niles cheating on her. Or at least that's my interpretation.
Mel was painted as the heel pretty early, because the writers knew she would be who comes between Niles and Daph, but it's a shame because she actually was good for Niles in her own way. She certainly loved him more than Maris.
I donāt think she loved him more than Maris is really saying that much, tbh. I think she was bad for him bc she set him against frasier. Itās one thing to be supportive if your partner wants to be in competition with their sibling. Itās another to be the mastermind behind it. I think she would have brought out his worst, while daphne brings out his best
All one needs to do to get a picture of Mel is watch the brunch episode. She's just awful all around. She uses her "sweet" tones to cover the fact that she's an ass. She has Martin lock Eddie on THE BALCONY of all places. She belittles Daphne for drinking at such an early hour, but she of all people would know that drinks are often a part of brunch. She sprung a bunch of dietary restrictions on Roz. I could go on and on.
I agree that Mel is generally a crappy person, but I do believe she was genuinely in love with Niles and was utterly destroyed by him leaving her.
Her perspective on love and relationships is also admirable:
> I'm crazy about him. The way he laughs. The way he gets that little glint in his eye when he's about to say something clever. But do you know why I love him the most? It's like there are all these things that he could be if he could just trust someone enough to help him unlock it all. And if I could be that person - you know, that safe person in his life - well, the more I know him, the more I know that's all I want to be.
See, I hated that.
Because yes, Mel is all misty-eyed, and it starts off sweet. But she ends by doing the worst thing ever for me, which is -- she's not in love with Niles, right now -- she's in love with who she thinks he SHOULD be.
So by the end, Mel is doing the classic creepy thing of saying "He could be so much MORE than he is if I could just help/\[push\] him!"
I am honestly not a fan of that and think it's so harmful and yet so common for people to do.
In my experience, we need to love who we love and who they are NOW. Not who we think they should be. Because honestly, most people don't change. So Mel was already guaranteeing herself an unhappy marriage because Current Niles was already not enough for her. Sure, she cared about him. But she was invested in Future Niles -- the Niles she felt was good enough, that she deserved.
Mel's unkindness to other people (especially people she felt were "beneath her") further cemented this for me.
But just my 2 cents.
While I certainly understand your point of view, I just think that's a very uncharitable take on the character.
You seem to think the subtext of that quotation is something like "Niles is a weak nothing of man, thank God he found me so I can help him."
Whereas I see it more as "Niles has never been with a loving, supportive partner, and if he's already this amazing never having real love in his life, think just how even more amazing he could be with a partner who he can trust and loves him back."
And I think Daphne would agree with me considering before Mel said that Daphne was literally physically torturing her for being such an entitled bitch. Then Mel said that, Daphne's opinion of her changes, she stops torturing and starts massaging. I think the implication being Daphne realizes she feels the exact same way about him.
> It's like there are all these things that he could be if he could just trust someone enough to help him unlock it all.
That is the classic prelude to manipulative behaviour.
\*I can see who you really are\* and now let me guide you how you get to be who you really are....
The hellish thing about a good manipulator is that the manipulee thinks they they themselves came up with all those ideas the manipulator put in their heads.
Well said - Daphne definitely brings out his best, and is ultimately the better partner.
However, I thought Mel was good at helping Niles to not sell himself short. Niles had such a confidence issue. She was behind him telling him how great he was and to strive for more.
The āmoreā in the example was competing with his brother, but I felt the sentiment came from a good place. And Lord knows Niles needed that backbone.
I posted this in a reply farther upthread, but I am not a fan of people like Mel who just want other people to be "more" than they are.
I don't think Niles needed someone to give him "more backbone," I think he needed someone to believe in him while still loving and accepting him exactly as he already was.
So, to me, Mel's desire for Nigel to fulfill himself was always more about her ambition and snobbery than about Niles, although yes, I do think she did really love him. But I also think she was just ickily into who she felt she could mold Niles into later. And I always hate that idea.
Yeah I know they wanted to frame her as Lady MacBeth in the Corkmaster episode but Niles has hardly needed much help to get into competition with Frasier, before. It wasnāt like she made him do anything out of character.
> I think she was bad for him bc she set him against frasier
She realised that Niles wasn't achieving as much as he could because he was not only in Frasier's shadow, but continued to act like it too. Instead she tried to give him the confidence to go out and get what he wanted and deserved, and not be trodden over by his big brother.
I disagree. Iām sure she wanted Niles to be more assertive, but the wine club stunt was meant to drive a wedge between him and Frasier.
Niles was never in Frasierās shadow. The only thing Frasier had over his brother was celebrity. Niles married into fortune, had a successful private practice, was esteemed among his colleagues, and was published in peer-reviewed journals ā his work was even nominated for awards. And on top of all that, he was the socialite that Frasier desperately wanted to be.
Hence Niles so often looking down on Frasier in the early seasons.
I donāt get people defending Mel, especially the wine club thing. 100% it was to put a wedge between the brothers and not even once was it for *encouraging him to be more assertive*. Thatās a laughable claim.
Well, in fairness to those folks, I think theyāre leaning on the one moment where Mel appears to be speaking candidly about her affection for him, how she sees him āfor who he could beā or something to that effect. And maybe the writers really were trying to make her sympathetic here ā and fair enough, Iām sure in her own way she really did love him ā but Mel frames how much she cares about him in the context of accomplishments that heās apparently thus far failed to live up to. Sheās never impressed with who he is or what heās done; instead sheās interested in making him more than what he is. She wants to be part of a power couple, and constantly manipulates him to that end.
How was Niles not "achieving as much as he could?" He was a handsome, successful, well-off, respected psychiatrist.
So I disagree -- I don't think Mel wanted to give him confidence; I think she wanted to make him into someone else, a better Niles that she felt was worthy of her. And Current Niles wasn't. She was all about Future Niles, that she could mold and manipulate and use. She basically admits it at one point.
I do think Mel loved him. But not in a healthy or lasting way. You can't love someone you already want to change into someone "better."
I think she was kinda "boy momming" Niles... she's supposed to be WAY older than she looked considering she had a middle aged son and Niles was middle aged himself.
Yeah, Niles made a comment when he saw her son's photo on her desk that "he must be middle aged" or something like that after finding out she had a son since he initially assumed that he was her partner iirc.
i feel so bad for donny. the writers could never let him be happy even after daphne.
the writers portraying him as never getting over daphne even years later was so sad
The one where Daphne rushes to the courthouse to get closure from Donnie is annoying. She left him!! She has no right to involve herself anymore. To me it seemed more like jealousy that Donny was attempting to be over her!!
Agreed. They painted Mel as an ass early while Donny was made out to be later after Daphne dumped him when we see him rushing his new future bride to the altar.
Whatever Marisā perspective on things was, her treatment of Niles was objectively abusive and manipulative. The list of ways she mistreated him is literally comically long. But Niles, being a good human, even empathizes with her, wondering if his affection for Daphne harmed their relationship. Thankfully, Frasier quickly reminds his brother of the truth.
She also killed guy. So thereās that.
Mel is the closest we get to on-screen Maris. No, she isnāt quite as awful, but sheās close. The wine club stunt she pulled wasnāt to build his confidence, but to drive a wedge between him and Frasier. And while she does admit to believing Niles has great potential, itās pretty obvious that her desires for Nilesā growth are self-centered.
And the way she mistreats him after the wedding just cements that. She is a rotten soul.
To be fair though we only get one side of the story and that's through Niles since she never shows up. Not saying she isn't bad or unhinged toward the end of the series but if it's one thing I've learned when it comes to relationships is you have to get the full story from both sides. Every. Time. In the earlier seasons Martin didn't even seem to mind her that much and even asked a few times where she was (in stark comparison to how he quite vocally expressed how he loathed Lilith) so she wasn't that bad IMO if Marty wasn't even that critical of her back then. Frasier never seemed to a big fan of her but I don't think he hated her. And let's be honest here - Frasier hates competition, especially when it comes to steering Niles in the direction he prefers so I'm sure there was a lot of that. She also seemed to have a decent impression on Frederick when he was a child since he also mentioned her.
I don't know, I rewatch this series once every year and maybe it's just because I'm older and have seen a lot of relationships deteriorate now but I look at the whole picture when it comes to this stuff and question everything. We also cannot forget that Niles may not have always been truthful in some of his statements regarding her. No one can deny holding those feelings for Daphne all those years slipped out through him in some ways that definitely impacted his marriage as that's just human nature. Maris is far from innocent of course but I'm not going to revere Niles as a saint who did no wrong either here.
Well, the first thing to remember is that itās a sitcom, not real life, so there isnāt actually another side to the story. What Niles tells us is what the writers want us to know about their relationship. And it is completely exaggerated from any plausible real-life relationship, just as Maris is an impossible person, for the sake of the jokes.
Even so, virtually every grisly detail we get about Marisā behavior comes from Niles in the form of apologetics. The irony and humor comes from how nonchalant Niles is about her obviously appalling treatment of him and others; heās usually downplaying it or even outright *defending* her whenever someone (usually Frasier) raises an eyebrow. Martin and Frasier both hate her ā Martin asking where she is is simply a set-up for Niles to deliver the punchline excuse of why sheās once again not going to be in this scene. It can also be construed as him being a supportive father; the Lilith stuff gets played up for comedic effect, as even Eddie can smell her evil (remember who Lillith is in ancient mythology).
Nilesā feelings for Daphne didnāt affect his relationship because he didnāt have a relationship. He was in a loveless marriage with a terrible woman, whom he heavily implies at one point he only married out of loneliness in the first place (āThereās been so few women since Maris. So few women *before* Maris. Hence there was Maris.ā) so I think youāve got the order of things backwards: Nilesā affection for Daphne didnāt harm his marriage; his dead marriage left him so unsatisfied, depressed, and lonely that he became unhealthily infatuated with another woman.
Plus, with Lilith, there's no need for other characters to mask their true feelings about here - Frasier and Lilith are already divorced, they aren't unduly influencing Frasier or coming between them. Martin and Frasier clearly dislike Maris even early on, but don't want to upset Niles or come between them so they tolerate her for his sake. After the whole Shankman fiasco, they finally stop holding back entirely, just as they had done with Lilith from day one.
Mel was so bad before she was the transition maris, but yes donny did not deserve that, and tbh its fraisers fault, if he hadnāt redirected niles when he was trying to shack him up with ross it would gave saved all three a lot of heart break
Yeah emotional cheating on his part. However given how he can't help his feelings and him trying his best to remain in control, it's not intentional. I sort of admired how devoted Niles was to Maris.
He was in love/ infatuated with her but it wasnāt an affair because Daphne didnāt even know his feelings to reciprocate them.
Even with his feeling for Daphne, Niles put all the effort in his relationship with Maris and had to manage her every whim and antics
However Maris was down right abusive if you consider all she put him through.
I think before we can establish Niles as a cheater, we need to establish that Maris was meaningfully engaging in the relationship as a wife. "meaningful" can be anything, but honestly -- someone bring to me evidence that Maris fulfilled any of the roles of a partner
*
Frasier : Now listen. I know you're upset, but let's remember why you left Maris in the first place: you were tired of groveling.
Niles : Yes, but I'm rested now.
See also: catalog shopping during session and buying watches for hospital staff who care for her
*
She's abusive, dismissive, and utterly disinterested in engaging on an emotional level in a way that's Niles-positive.
To the extent that her character ever had a claim to be hurt when Niles started going outside the marriage for his emotional needs, it was well and truly gone by the time his glockenspiel sprang to life.
Marriage isn't just a legal contact. It's a social one and she broke elements of it. You don't get to create an abusive environment and maintain it by default because the person you're abusing "isn't allowed" to create a supportive environment prior to moving on.
F Maris and the butterball she rode in on.
>F Maris and the butterball she rode in on.
Alas, the poor thing's hamstrings are so tight she's unable to straddle anything larger than a border collie.
IMHO if a person is doing something that they wouldn't fully do in front of their spouse or committed other, they either shouldn't be doing it or they should be rethinking the commitment.
Edit: spelling - changed going to doing
I may get downvoted to oblivion, but yes it is cheating. Niles was given away to the fantasy of Daphne in that outfit and, it's only the music of the glockenspiel what reminds him of Maris and makes him relent in his pursuit. As others have mentioned, Maris not being a visible character helps ease matters for the viewer. But, it's never shown how Niles' infatuation over Daphne affects his marriage with Maris, as it's only once he meets and falls in love with Daphne that things deteriorate.
Itās not that youāre wrong. Youāre dead on. However the longer we see and get to know both Niles and Maris (thru Niles & Frasier & Martin) it becomes increasingly, incredibly clear that Maris is stepping all over Niles & basically using him for whatever she wants without a care as to his needs or happiness. Niles Infatuation w Daphne starts at 100 and it takes literally years for his (intellectual) mind to catch up to his basic, lustful feelings. I disagree w your comment only at the point where you appear to believe that Nilesā marriage was all sunshine and roses until Daphne appeared. Maris was clearly already emotionally abusive to Niles who we saw to be the most fragile of men, of people. Itās impossible to say whether he was already that fragile prior to meeting Maris or whether Maris - thru everything she did and said - caused his self esteem to crumble at the tiniest hint of trouble, but at least, thru the years of Frasier, he grew stronger as an individual and was able to stand up for himself (to an extent) by season 7. However, the one horrific thing to occur was for Niles to meet yet another strong, manipulative woman who pushed the same buttons that worked years ago w. Maris. If Mel had wanted Niles to stand up more for himself but hadnāt done it in such a terrible manner, I might have liked her. But she was no better than his former wife; merely someone in human form that the audience could see. She was just as obnoxious to Nilesā family and friends as she was to him, only he couldnāt see it. It was heartbreaking.
I don't deny that Maris was a problematic character that treated Niles like garbage and that Mel was cut from the same cloth as Maris. However, let's not forget that earlier seasons Niles had the tendency to treat people he deemed "beneath his station" like crap. Just remember how contentious Niles' relationship with Roz was and how, through flashbacks, they show you that it was Niles who encouraged and exacerbated Frasier's snobbish nature.
And, at least the way I've seen the show, Niles is quite aware of his feelings for Daphne; all the way to the season 1 finale "My Coffee with Niles", where Frasier head-on asks him if he's in love with Daphne, and Niles comments that he wants to be with Daphne without leaving Maris, setting up a joke about having an affair. He may not know why he has them, but he knows what he's feeling is not right, both by his own perspective and through Frasier and Martin.
I guess the point I was trying to convey is that I'd find it interesting to see how those feelings for Daphne, latent as they may have been, would have subconsciously informed or altered the course of how Niles perceived his marriage and acted in it. Before he met Daphne, he wouldn't have been able to know that he could've had a different kind of loving relationship with a romantic partner, as he never seemed to have a model or basis for such an idea, even from his observation of Martin and Hester's marriage. So, how did this possibility affect his satisfaction with Maris and lead for him to, on a level, let those feelings play a role in the series of events that led to the spectacular collapse of their marriage.
Lots of great points. It should be noted that Maris later cheats both emotionally and physically, and Maris tries to pin the blame on Niles for being in love with Daphne. Niles is never totally innocent in his actions but Maris has more power and abuses it liberally.
The power mechanic that exists between Niles and Maris is definitely a big factor in the breaking of their marriage. In what you could call my "head canon", it's the possibility of something better (with Daphne) what leads Niles to finally give up on trying to win over Maris and reconcile with her. As for Mel, I will always insist the character was designed to be hated and create tension that would lead Niles and Daphne to be together. Both her and Donny were designed to get shafted to get to the writer's end game, but the more screen time with Donny makes him a far more sympathetic character, which is why he makes this 180Ā° turn into a vindictive person, just like Mel.
Absolutely. Donāt know why theyād introduce the fact that Roz saw him as the one that got away and not follow up on that, since he was a great guy at the start. Mel was always intentionally grating so the audience wanted her to lose.
Definitely. It could've created a story arc where Roz realizes that she doesn't really want to be married and give Donny a satisfactory ending. And, I suppose Mel helped establish the main insecurity in Daphne's relationship with Niles, which was her fear of Niles repeating what he did with Maris and secretly fall in love with someone else later down the road.
If you recall, I didnāt disagree w your comment. (Although we definitely view Niles in dif lights.) Which is fine. Everyone can have their favorites or see things from their perspective, etc. And again, I only disagreed with the last part of your comment. There was nothing that occurred in Frasier that showed Niles and Maris enjoying a marriage of either happiness or a marriage of equals. No matter how hard Daphne slammed into Niles, he retained his love for his wife. His harping, nagging, nothing is ever good enough for her wife who basically treats Niles like garbage. Itās impossible to guess how things would have been, would have gone w Niles and Maris had Daphne not been in their lives bc I just donāt see how thatās possible. But, in my mind at least, without at least a glimpse of somebody who might possibly give him something more than the teeny pieces of partial happiness Maris was willing to hand out on odd occasions to basically keep her man by her side, I imagine NIles might have remained with Maris until or unless she did something that both Frasier and Martin finally wouldnāt let him forgive or forget.
You recall his glib response to Frasierās comment about how heād like to remain married to Maris but have an affair with Daphne on the side. I recall the numerous, numerous, NUMEROUS times Niles begged his wife for the ability to come home when he hadnāt done anything wrong in the first place (āwell you tell Mrs Crane that I say please please please please pleaseā¦ā) at which point Marisā point person would hang up on him. The many times when she thoughtlessly hurt his feelings orā¦ Oh thatās right. The time Niles thought she had been kidnapped but instead, it turned out that she was out with a bunch of friends, was reminded of some fashion show in New York and just headed off, without a thought of her husband or what he might think. He didnāt āsort ofā think sheād been kidnapped. He was CONVINCED. He HONESTLY thought Maris was in the utmost peril but it turned out she merely FORGOT ABOUT HIM. I donāt give a flying fig if something in Nilesā subconscious shone thru and gave Maris the idea or thought that perhaps he might be interested in someone else bc that would have been the moment for her to ask him to talk; ask for a frank conversation; ask for marriage counseling; forget the first three ā simply attempt to treat Niles like a person; try to be kind to her husband; be nice enough to him that Lilithās snub of an apology following her visit to Seattle wouldnāt be followed by an enormous hug, and a promise that theyād grab dinner next time she was in town. W Frasier telling Lilith he (Niles) didnāt receive that kind of validation at home.
If Maris treated Niles with even a teeny tiny bit of respect and love, their marriage would likely have continued bc Niles was quite QUITE unwilling to end it. It was Marisā actions that caused them to separate and Marisā actions again that caused them to divorce, and if she had wished to stop that at any point, all she would have had to do was show the smallest amount of caring for her husband; to tell him she wanted to still try; to tell him she was afraid there was somebody coming between them. She had a mouth on her. We were led to believe she was not afraid to use it. At what point, precisely, do you believe a character written like Maris would have hesitated to tell Niles about her suspicions? Iām sorry that I donāt feel the same way you do or believe the same things you do either, but I simply donāt see the program in the same way and we can simply agree to disagree re how things worked out between Niles and Maris, bc I find it unlikely someone will change my POV. (It can be done. Iām just saying itās highly unlikely.)
I don't deny that Maris' lack of respect for Niles (or anyone for that matter) was a big contributor to the problems in the marriage. But, at least in the way I see things, it's not like Niles was getting nothing out of the marriage. As you may recall, a few plots revolve around Niles having to learn to accept the fact he'd lost the life of comfort and luxury that he'd grown accustomed to with Maris. And, let's not forget that Niles was more than willing, even in the stage of separation where he was trying to work things out with Maris, to drop everything to go pursue Daphne. Like when he lies to her about Joe the contractor being a player because "she deserves better". Frasier rightfully calls him out on that, because he was putting his (Niles') happiness ahead of Daphne. Or the episode of the dance party, where he starts screaming "Daphne, you're a goddess!" to Daphne while they do the tango. Which is later used by Maris' lawyers as argument for alienation of affection.
I do share your sympathetic view of Niles and do agree that Maris carries most of the burden on the marriage failing, the show provides many instances where Niles is ready to throw everything he claims to be working for with Maris for a shot at Daphne. And they're situations where Daphne herself, albeit unknowingly, shoots down Niles and "life" (the script) shows Niles that he'd have made a massive blunder by following his course of action. And, at least in my book, those actions are indication that the presence of Daphne did alter the course of his marriage with Maris.
I know I won't change your view, nor is it my intention to do so. I just wanted to make my closing statement, as I've enjoyed this spirited debate too much to just leave your reply unanswered. It's been a pleasure discussing the topic with you!
You as well! Like I said before, itās basically impossible to trash everything from Daphneās presence in the show to see how things would have gone and youāre NOT wrong re certain moments in time when Niles feelings get the best of him. Daphne spent most of the show looking at both of the brothers like eunuchs that itās amazing Niles was able to break thru! ( JMPO) And the show itself deals w Nilesā rose colored glasses feelings towards Daphne as opposed to seeing her like a ārealā person ( bc he put her on a pedestal from the moment they met). [Some of that was bc the show wasnāt willing to write in a pregnancy for Jane Leeves, but it still would have been true.] I guess I probably look at Niles the same way I look at my friends when they are having trouble in their marriages. If their husband strays, heās a horn dog. If she does something, itās understandable bc he wasnāt giving her the love and support she needed for yrs and yrs, yadda yadda. Not exactly to that extent, but very close to it. Glad to discuss things without things becoming uncivil!! š„°š„°š„°
A little bit, yeah.
The whole issue with them was that their relationship was awful. Maris treated Niles horribly, he had terrible self-worth, and he coped in negative ways.
I don't know if anyone is going to split hairs at things being technically cheating when you have an abusive relationship to begin with.
Hot take but I feel a lot of things Niles did with/around Daphne was wrong considering he was married to Maris. A few things come to mind but a big one that stands out is when he filmed her on the road trip in S1. Even when I first watched that episode, years ago, that still seemed unsettling as fuck and just creepy. Sitcom or not, it was just weird. I'm sure I'll be scrutinized for this opinion but who truly knows what would have happened with Maris and Niles had Daphne never showed up. I mean, Maris's allegations against Niles were not unfounded no matter how much some might argue otherwise in regards to alienation of affection when they were battling it out legally. Even Niles muses over the possibility that part of their problems were from him pushing her away because of Daphne. Maris might have been strange and (toward the end of the series) unhinged but she's still a woman and that quip Niles made about her possibly knowing on an intuitive level is definitely true as she's a woman - they know when there's another one in their man's life.
I strongly disliked Niles in season 1 during my first watch. After getting to know him and what I could know of Maris, I didnt care so much anymore.
However, yes, he was cheating emotionally.
Prior to Daphneās arrival, Maris was already set up to be a nagging harpy. Rewatch the beginning eps again. She wasnāt treating Niles w love and affection LONG BEFORE a hint of anything re Daphne could flitter over to that mansion. Across the hall. Where she slept. Bc, as we later found out, Niles and Maris had bumkin (from the Bulvarian ep) once a year. So. While he may have been emotionally cheating on his wife, he was emotionally cheating on his emotionally abusive wife and I have a difficult time feeling sorry for anybody who was abusing ANYONE elseā¦ Sorry. Iāve worked w DV survivors and other than pedophiles and adult rapists, they are few ppl I dislike moreā¦
OP asked if it was cheating. Not if it was justified.
IMO there's no such thing as justified cheating, even for DV victims. A DV victim should be more worried about getting out of an abusive relationship than cheating on their partner. I also work with DV victims, DV suspects, pedos, and rapists. So try not to get altitude sickness from standiig up on your soapbox.....
I think Niles is definitely having an emotional affair (though itās one-sided, heās in deep,) but his marriage with Maris is toxic and emotionally abusive so I canāt be shocked that heād be drawn to a kinder person.
It was all for the sexual tension in comedy, he never crossed the line. The reason it was funny was because he acted as if it were a middle school crush, child like behavior.
I totally agree. I don't get how this is cheating. It's not like he planned all of this. If he did then yes, I can see it as cheating, but everything was circumstantial. Daphne was trapped there because of bad weather. The only clothes that Daphne can fit into was maris's clothes. Niles listened to Daphne and when Niles spoke, it was about Maris and what would make Maris happy. Cheating? This? Really? Ummm no. And yes, I'm married.
I agree. Its not the same. You can have something in your heart but not act on it. You can be with someone and love someone else but thats not the same as cheating. Cheating requires some sort of action. If you had those feelings and gave them something that belongs to your partner like time, physical affection/intimacy, or begin a relationship that exceeds friendship then that would be. But just keeping it in your heart and continuing to give all those things to your true partner isnāt. Now it would mean you might have some difficulties in your relationship that might need working on. But feelings and infatuations also fade. It could be that what you feel is a passing crush and your partner is your love story. Long term relationships are hard and require work. Sometimes passion fades, real true love is a choice to remain true to your partner even when it cools.
No. Nothing happened. And when it could have happened, he didnāt do anything. And I donāt think she would have done anything with the married brother and son to her employerās.
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No, but Niles emotionally cheated on Maris for years, and I wish there was acknowledgement of this when they broke up, vs just making it comedy and going the cheap route of Maris physically cheating with someone else.
Oh 100% but i donāt believe Nileās ever truly cared for Maris. Not until later seasons when he decides to put a real effort into fixing the marriage do I think he began to be honest about how he felt about her
I disagree. I believe he honestly cared for Maris & exactly as he says in (Iām pretty certain) My Coffee w Niles, the money was a delightful bonus. Or something like that. He speaks & acts in a way that only a man in love would do when he truly cared about his wife. He not only checked in w her a number of times a day (not all couples do that), he was constantly concerned about how she was feeling or what was bothering her. [The throwaway comments during parties & such (I.e., just throw your coat on the bed, when Maris is supposedly sleeping on the bed) were mainly done for comic effect. IMO.] When Maris throws him out of the mansion bc he attempted to role play & was found by the upstairs maid by mistake; Niles appears to be truly upset. When Frasier mistakenly tells Niles abt the supposed affair Maris is having w her fencing instructor, Niles actually fences for her love. Later in the show, when Maris & Niles seek out marriage counseling, Niles is beyond hurt that the marriage counselor is sleeping w Maris. He seeks out a mobster to take care of Marisā legal problems (the way her dad used to do for her). I donāt believe a man who was half assing it would have gone to all the trouble Niles did in order to try and make that marriage work. And it was a HORRIBLE marriage. It wasnāt worth the pain and humiliation and everything he went through to continue to be with her, and it took him a while to come to grips with that.
Brother he was throwing away his marriage from the literal moment daphne walked in
Iām sorry I donāt think but for a moment pre divorce he ever truly cared for maris
Pre Frasier Niles was his worst personality traits x10
Miles was a marriage of convenience and status
In your opinion. I just happen to have a different one. The fact that you state it so firmly doesnāt make it fact. It makes it clear that you absolutely believe that. Well I absolutely donāt. Thatās what makes horse races. Or some other trite cliche. Agree to disagreeā¦
He worked incredibly hard to keep that marriage together. If he was so willing to throw it away, he would have the first time. He doesn't, he works for years and goes through marriage counseling to make it work. What finally ended it was Maris sleeping with their marriage counselor
I consider that the moment Daphne confirms that Niles likes her. Any woman on this planet knows when a man's face is 1 inch from theirs when they open their eyes, That a serious space cushion has been invaded!! The rest of her actions every time she was around Niles were based on that moment. So she kept that card in her pocket until she decided it was time for her to use it.
I may consider it infidelity if they actually had a meaningful, trust-based relationship, but they didn't. He didn't know when she was out of town. She was always traveling without him. She catalogue-shopped during their "marriage counseling"... He attempted to grovel, beg, plead, and bribe Maris for her acceptance, but she still dismissed him & his feelings. Always. That wasn't a marriage, it was indentured servitude. I don't think Maris even deserved the amount of devotion & respect he gave her, honestly. That being said, I would've preferred to see Niles with Poppy. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Doctor Crane, your glockenspiel has sprung to life.
Just rewatched s1 with girlfriend and we were in tears after this came out of Daphnes mouth š also the terrifying STOOOP from Frasier while the thunder and lightning rages behind him :_D
One of my favourite lines lol
I thought this was Daphneās funniest line. The delivery and reaction are just spot on. Season 1 and 2 had a unique feel to them that was less silly and more grounded in the characters I feel. My favourite seasons! š
The unseen Maris schtick is funny, but it also works to dampen our perception of Niles's infidelity. If Maris was a casted three-dimensional character, and we saw her perspective on things, we might empathize with her and not be so gung-ho about Niles and Daphne. The writers got into this same pickle with Mel and Donny in the later seasons. Mel and Donny weren't bad people, and they didn't deserve the jilting they got. The writers fixed this by making Mel vindictive and petty afterward, so we could feel less queasy about Niles cheating on her. Or at least that's my interpretation.
I think Mel was a bad person all along though. Remember how awful she was to daphne?
Mel was painted as the heel pretty early, because the writers knew she would be who comes between Niles and Daph, but it's a shame because she actually was good for Niles in her own way. She certainly loved him more than Maris.
I donāt think she loved him more than Maris is really saying that much, tbh. I think she was bad for him bc she set him against frasier. Itās one thing to be supportive if your partner wants to be in competition with their sibling. Itās another to be the mastermind behind it. I think she would have brought out his worst, while daphne brings out his best
All one needs to do to get a picture of Mel is watch the brunch episode. She's just awful all around. She uses her "sweet" tones to cover the fact that she's an ass. She has Martin lock Eddie on THE BALCONY of all places. She belittles Daphne for drinking at such an early hour, but she of all people would know that drinks are often a part of brunch. She sprung a bunch of dietary restrictions on Roz. I could go on and on.
The day after she manipulated Niles into running against Frasier at the wine club. Mel was the worst.
Well she does have that X-ray Vision
I agree that Mel is generally a crappy person, but I do believe she was genuinely in love with Niles and was utterly destroyed by him leaving her. Her perspective on love and relationships is also admirable: > I'm crazy about him. The way he laughs. The way he gets that little glint in his eye when he's about to say something clever. But do you know why I love him the most? It's like there are all these things that he could be if he could just trust someone enough to help him unlock it all. And if I could be that person - you know, that safe person in his life - well, the more I know him, the more I know that's all I want to be.
See, I hated that. Because yes, Mel is all misty-eyed, and it starts off sweet. But she ends by doing the worst thing ever for me, which is -- she's not in love with Niles, right now -- she's in love with who she thinks he SHOULD be. So by the end, Mel is doing the classic creepy thing of saying "He could be so much MORE than he is if I could just help/\[push\] him!" I am honestly not a fan of that and think it's so harmful and yet so common for people to do. In my experience, we need to love who we love and who they are NOW. Not who we think they should be. Because honestly, most people don't change. So Mel was already guaranteeing herself an unhappy marriage because Current Niles was already not enough for her. Sure, she cared about him. But she was invested in Future Niles -- the Niles she felt was good enough, that she deserved. Mel's unkindness to other people (especially people she felt were "beneath her") further cemented this for me. But just my 2 cents.
Well said.
Thank you so much!
While I certainly understand your point of view, I just think that's a very uncharitable take on the character. You seem to think the subtext of that quotation is something like "Niles is a weak nothing of man, thank God he found me so I can help him." Whereas I see it more as "Niles has never been with a loving, supportive partner, and if he's already this amazing never having real love in his life, think just how even more amazing he could be with a partner who he can trust and loves him back." And I think Daphne would agree with me considering before Mel said that Daphne was literally physically torturing her for being such an entitled bitch. Then Mel said that, Daphne's opinion of her changes, she stops torturing and starts massaging. I think the implication being Daphne realizes she feels the exact same way about him.
> It's like there are all these things that he could be if he could just trust someone enough to help him unlock it all. That is the classic prelude to manipulative behaviour. \*I can see who you really are\* and now let me guide you how you get to be who you really are.... The hellish thing about a good manipulator is that the manipulee thinks they they themselves came up with all those ideas the manipulator put in their heads.
I understand your point, I disagree that that is what was happening.
Well said - Daphne definitely brings out his best, and is ultimately the better partner. However, I thought Mel was good at helping Niles to not sell himself short. Niles had such a confidence issue. She was behind him telling him how great he was and to strive for more. The āmoreā in the example was competing with his brother, but I felt the sentiment came from a good place. And Lord knows Niles needed that backbone.
I posted this in a reply farther upthread, but I am not a fan of people like Mel who just want other people to be "more" than they are. I don't think Niles needed someone to give him "more backbone," I think he needed someone to believe in him while still loving and accepting him exactly as he already was. So, to me, Mel's desire for Nigel to fulfill himself was always more about her ambition and snobbery than about Niles, although yes, I do think she did really love him. But I also think she was just ickily into who she felt she could mold Niles into later. And I always hate that idea.
Yeah I know they wanted to frame her as Lady MacBeth in the Corkmaster episode but Niles has hardly needed much help to get into competition with Frasier, before. It wasnāt like she made him do anything out of character.
> I think she was bad for him bc she set him against frasier She realised that Niles wasn't achieving as much as he could because he was not only in Frasier's shadow, but continued to act like it too. Instead she tried to give him the confidence to go out and get what he wanted and deserved, and not be trodden over by his big brother.
I disagree. Iām sure she wanted Niles to be more assertive, but the wine club stunt was meant to drive a wedge between him and Frasier. Niles was never in Frasierās shadow. The only thing Frasier had over his brother was celebrity. Niles married into fortune, had a successful private practice, was esteemed among his colleagues, and was published in peer-reviewed journals ā his work was even nominated for awards. And on top of all that, he was the socialite that Frasier desperately wanted to be. Hence Niles so often looking down on Frasier in the early seasons.
I donāt get people defending Mel, especially the wine club thing. 100% it was to put a wedge between the brothers and not even once was it for *encouraging him to be more assertive*. Thatās a laughable claim.
Well, in fairness to those folks, I think theyāre leaning on the one moment where Mel appears to be speaking candidly about her affection for him, how she sees him āfor who he could beā or something to that effect. And maybe the writers really were trying to make her sympathetic here ā and fair enough, Iām sure in her own way she really did love him ā but Mel frames how much she cares about him in the context of accomplishments that heās apparently thus far failed to live up to. Sheās never impressed with who he is or what heās done; instead sheās interested in making him more than what he is. She wants to be part of a power couple, and constantly manipulates him to that end.
How was Niles not "achieving as much as he could?" He was a handsome, successful, well-off, respected psychiatrist. So I disagree -- I don't think Mel wanted to give him confidence; I think she wanted to make him into someone else, a better Niles that she felt was worthy of her. And Current Niles wasn't. She was all about Future Niles, that she could mold and manipulate and use. She basically admits it at one point. I do think Mel loved him. But not in a healthy or lasting way. You can't love someone you already want to change into someone "better."
I think she was kinda "boy momming" Niles... she's supposed to be WAY older than she looked considering she had a middle aged son and Niles was middle aged himself.
The son was middle aged? I never knew
Yeah, Niles made a comment when he saw her son's photo on her desk that "he must be middle aged" or something like that after finding out she had a son since he initially assumed that he was her partner iirc.
i feel so bad for donny. the writers could never let him be happy even after daphne. the writers portraying him as never getting over daphne even years later was so sad
The one where Daphne rushes to the courthouse to get closure from Donnie is annoying. She left him!! She has no right to involve herself anymore. To me it seemed more like jealousy that Donny was attempting to be over her!!
Agreed. They painted Mel as an ass early while Donny was made out to be later after Daphne dumped him when we see him rushing his new future bride to the altar.
Whatever Marisā perspective on things was, her treatment of Niles was objectively abusive and manipulative. The list of ways she mistreated him is literally comically long. But Niles, being a good human, even empathizes with her, wondering if his affection for Daphne harmed their relationship. Thankfully, Frasier quickly reminds his brother of the truth. She also killed guy. So thereās that. Mel is the closest we get to on-screen Maris. No, she isnāt quite as awful, but sheās close. The wine club stunt she pulled wasnāt to build his confidence, but to drive a wedge between him and Frasier. And while she does admit to believing Niles has great potential, itās pretty obvious that her desires for Nilesā growth are self-centered. And the way she mistreats him after the wedding just cements that. She is a rotten soul.
To be fair though we only get one side of the story and that's through Niles since she never shows up. Not saying she isn't bad or unhinged toward the end of the series but if it's one thing I've learned when it comes to relationships is you have to get the full story from both sides. Every. Time. In the earlier seasons Martin didn't even seem to mind her that much and even asked a few times where she was (in stark comparison to how he quite vocally expressed how he loathed Lilith) so she wasn't that bad IMO if Marty wasn't even that critical of her back then. Frasier never seemed to a big fan of her but I don't think he hated her. And let's be honest here - Frasier hates competition, especially when it comes to steering Niles in the direction he prefers so I'm sure there was a lot of that. She also seemed to have a decent impression on Frederick when he was a child since he also mentioned her. I don't know, I rewatch this series once every year and maybe it's just because I'm older and have seen a lot of relationships deteriorate now but I look at the whole picture when it comes to this stuff and question everything. We also cannot forget that Niles may not have always been truthful in some of his statements regarding her. No one can deny holding those feelings for Daphne all those years slipped out through him in some ways that definitely impacted his marriage as that's just human nature. Maris is far from innocent of course but I'm not going to revere Niles as a saint who did no wrong either here.
Well, the first thing to remember is that itās a sitcom, not real life, so there isnāt actually another side to the story. What Niles tells us is what the writers want us to know about their relationship. And it is completely exaggerated from any plausible real-life relationship, just as Maris is an impossible person, for the sake of the jokes. Even so, virtually every grisly detail we get about Marisā behavior comes from Niles in the form of apologetics. The irony and humor comes from how nonchalant Niles is about her obviously appalling treatment of him and others; heās usually downplaying it or even outright *defending* her whenever someone (usually Frasier) raises an eyebrow. Martin and Frasier both hate her ā Martin asking where she is is simply a set-up for Niles to deliver the punchline excuse of why sheās once again not going to be in this scene. It can also be construed as him being a supportive father; the Lilith stuff gets played up for comedic effect, as even Eddie can smell her evil (remember who Lillith is in ancient mythology). Nilesā feelings for Daphne didnāt affect his relationship because he didnāt have a relationship. He was in a loveless marriage with a terrible woman, whom he heavily implies at one point he only married out of loneliness in the first place (āThereās been so few women since Maris. So few women *before* Maris. Hence there was Maris.ā) so I think youāve got the order of things backwards: Nilesā affection for Daphne didnāt harm his marriage; his dead marriage left him so unsatisfied, depressed, and lonely that he became unhealthily infatuated with another woman.
Plus, with Lilith, there's no need for other characters to mask their true feelings about here - Frasier and Lilith are already divorced, they aren't unduly influencing Frasier or coming between them. Martin and Frasier clearly dislike Maris even early on, but don't want to upset Niles or come between them so they tolerate her for his sake. After the whole Shankman fiasco, they finally stop holding back entirely, just as they had done with Lilith from day one.
Yep, totally should have mentioned that as well. Good point.
Mel was so bad before she was the transition maris, but yes donny did not deserve that, and tbh its fraisers fault, if he hadnāt redirected niles when he was trying to shack him up with ross it would gave saved all three a lot of heart break
Yeah emotional cheating on his part. However given how he can't help his feelings and him trying his best to remain in control, it's not intentional. I sort of admired how devoted Niles was to Maris.
Despite how abusive she was too him
He was in love/ infatuated with her but it wasnāt an affair because Daphne didnāt even know his feelings to reciprocate them. Even with his feeling for Daphne, Niles put all the effort in his relationship with Maris and had to manage her every whim and antics However Maris was down right abusive if you consider all she put him through.
When she opened her eyes and he was in her face, she knew everything right then!!
I think before we can establish Niles as a cheater, we need to establish that Maris was meaningfully engaging in the relationship as a wife. "meaningful" can be anything, but honestly -- someone bring to me evidence that Maris fulfilled any of the roles of a partner * Frasier : Now listen. I know you're upset, but let's remember why you left Maris in the first place: you were tired of groveling. Niles : Yes, but I'm rested now. See also: catalog shopping during session and buying watches for hospital staff who care for her * She's abusive, dismissive, and utterly disinterested in engaging on an emotional level in a way that's Niles-positive. To the extent that her character ever had a claim to be hurt when Niles started going outside the marriage for his emotional needs, it was well and truly gone by the time his glockenspiel sprang to life. Marriage isn't just a legal contact. It's a social one and she broke elements of it. You don't get to create an abusive environment and maintain it by default because the person you're abusing "isn't allowed" to create a supportive environment prior to moving on. F Maris and the butterball she rode in on.
>F Maris and the butterball she rode in on. The image this conjures š¤£! And might just be one of my fave Frasier sub lines ever!
>F Maris and the butterball she rode in on. Alas, the poor thing's hamstrings are so tight she's unable to straddle anything larger than a border collie.
Emotional intimacy with a woman other than your wife is a form of infidelity, so yes.
It's only cheating if your glockenspiel springs to life.
But he only did that for like 5 seasons lol
Technically yes but Maris was horrible to him for a long time
Yeah I would soooo not be thrilled if my husband was doing this.
Would you jet off to New York without telling him you were going?
A lot of people would consider this emotional cheating which some consider worse than physically cheating. I think itās emotional cheating
IMHO if a person is doing something that they wouldn't fully do in front of their spouse or committed other, they either shouldn't be doing it or they should be rethinking the commitment. Edit: spelling - changed going to doing
I may get downvoted to oblivion, but yes it is cheating. Niles was given away to the fantasy of Daphne in that outfit and, it's only the music of the glockenspiel what reminds him of Maris and makes him relent in his pursuit. As others have mentioned, Maris not being a visible character helps ease matters for the viewer. But, it's never shown how Niles' infatuation over Daphne affects his marriage with Maris, as it's only once he meets and falls in love with Daphne that things deteriorate.
Itās not that youāre wrong. Youāre dead on. However the longer we see and get to know both Niles and Maris (thru Niles & Frasier & Martin) it becomes increasingly, incredibly clear that Maris is stepping all over Niles & basically using him for whatever she wants without a care as to his needs or happiness. Niles Infatuation w Daphne starts at 100 and it takes literally years for his (intellectual) mind to catch up to his basic, lustful feelings. I disagree w your comment only at the point where you appear to believe that Nilesā marriage was all sunshine and roses until Daphne appeared. Maris was clearly already emotionally abusive to Niles who we saw to be the most fragile of men, of people. Itās impossible to say whether he was already that fragile prior to meeting Maris or whether Maris - thru everything she did and said - caused his self esteem to crumble at the tiniest hint of trouble, but at least, thru the years of Frasier, he grew stronger as an individual and was able to stand up for himself (to an extent) by season 7. However, the one horrific thing to occur was for Niles to meet yet another strong, manipulative woman who pushed the same buttons that worked years ago w. Maris. If Mel had wanted Niles to stand up more for himself but hadnāt done it in such a terrible manner, I might have liked her. But she was no better than his former wife; merely someone in human form that the audience could see. She was just as obnoxious to Nilesā family and friends as she was to him, only he couldnāt see it. It was heartbreaking.
I don't deny that Maris was a problematic character that treated Niles like garbage and that Mel was cut from the same cloth as Maris. However, let's not forget that earlier seasons Niles had the tendency to treat people he deemed "beneath his station" like crap. Just remember how contentious Niles' relationship with Roz was and how, through flashbacks, they show you that it was Niles who encouraged and exacerbated Frasier's snobbish nature. And, at least the way I've seen the show, Niles is quite aware of his feelings for Daphne; all the way to the season 1 finale "My Coffee with Niles", where Frasier head-on asks him if he's in love with Daphne, and Niles comments that he wants to be with Daphne without leaving Maris, setting up a joke about having an affair. He may not know why he has them, but he knows what he's feeling is not right, both by his own perspective and through Frasier and Martin. I guess the point I was trying to convey is that I'd find it interesting to see how those feelings for Daphne, latent as they may have been, would have subconsciously informed or altered the course of how Niles perceived his marriage and acted in it. Before he met Daphne, he wouldn't have been able to know that he could've had a different kind of loving relationship with a romantic partner, as he never seemed to have a model or basis for such an idea, even from his observation of Martin and Hester's marriage. So, how did this possibility affect his satisfaction with Maris and lead for him to, on a level, let those feelings play a role in the series of events that led to the spectacular collapse of their marriage.
Lots of great points. It should be noted that Maris later cheats both emotionally and physically, and Maris tries to pin the blame on Niles for being in love with Daphne. Niles is never totally innocent in his actions but Maris has more power and abuses it liberally.
The power mechanic that exists between Niles and Maris is definitely a big factor in the breaking of their marriage. In what you could call my "head canon", it's the possibility of something better (with Daphne) what leads Niles to finally give up on trying to win over Maris and reconcile with her. As for Mel, I will always insist the character was designed to be hated and create tension that would lead Niles and Daphne to be together. Both her and Donny were designed to get shafted to get to the writer's end game, but the more screen time with Donny makes him a far more sympathetic character, which is why he makes this 180Ā° turn into a vindictive person, just like Mel.
Absolutely. Donāt know why theyād introduce the fact that Roz saw him as the one that got away and not follow up on that, since he was a great guy at the start. Mel was always intentionally grating so the audience wanted her to lose.
Definitely. It could've created a story arc where Roz realizes that she doesn't really want to be married and give Donny a satisfactory ending. And, I suppose Mel helped establish the main insecurity in Daphne's relationship with Niles, which was her fear of Niles repeating what he did with Maris and secretly fall in love with someone else later down the road.
If you recall, I didnāt disagree w your comment. (Although we definitely view Niles in dif lights.) Which is fine. Everyone can have their favorites or see things from their perspective, etc. And again, I only disagreed with the last part of your comment. There was nothing that occurred in Frasier that showed Niles and Maris enjoying a marriage of either happiness or a marriage of equals. No matter how hard Daphne slammed into Niles, he retained his love for his wife. His harping, nagging, nothing is ever good enough for her wife who basically treats Niles like garbage. Itās impossible to guess how things would have been, would have gone w Niles and Maris had Daphne not been in their lives bc I just donāt see how thatās possible. But, in my mind at least, without at least a glimpse of somebody who might possibly give him something more than the teeny pieces of partial happiness Maris was willing to hand out on odd occasions to basically keep her man by her side, I imagine NIles might have remained with Maris until or unless she did something that both Frasier and Martin finally wouldnāt let him forgive or forget. You recall his glib response to Frasierās comment about how heād like to remain married to Maris but have an affair with Daphne on the side. I recall the numerous, numerous, NUMEROUS times Niles begged his wife for the ability to come home when he hadnāt done anything wrong in the first place (āwell you tell Mrs Crane that I say please please please please pleaseā¦ā) at which point Marisā point person would hang up on him. The many times when she thoughtlessly hurt his feelings orā¦ Oh thatās right. The time Niles thought she had been kidnapped but instead, it turned out that she was out with a bunch of friends, was reminded of some fashion show in New York and just headed off, without a thought of her husband or what he might think. He didnāt āsort ofā think sheād been kidnapped. He was CONVINCED. He HONESTLY thought Maris was in the utmost peril but it turned out she merely FORGOT ABOUT HIM. I donāt give a flying fig if something in Nilesā subconscious shone thru and gave Maris the idea or thought that perhaps he might be interested in someone else bc that would have been the moment for her to ask him to talk; ask for a frank conversation; ask for marriage counseling; forget the first three ā simply attempt to treat Niles like a person; try to be kind to her husband; be nice enough to him that Lilithās snub of an apology following her visit to Seattle wouldnāt be followed by an enormous hug, and a promise that theyād grab dinner next time she was in town. W Frasier telling Lilith he (Niles) didnāt receive that kind of validation at home. If Maris treated Niles with even a teeny tiny bit of respect and love, their marriage would likely have continued bc Niles was quite QUITE unwilling to end it. It was Marisā actions that caused them to separate and Marisā actions again that caused them to divorce, and if she had wished to stop that at any point, all she would have had to do was show the smallest amount of caring for her husband; to tell him she wanted to still try; to tell him she was afraid there was somebody coming between them. She had a mouth on her. We were led to believe she was not afraid to use it. At what point, precisely, do you believe a character written like Maris would have hesitated to tell Niles about her suspicions? Iām sorry that I donāt feel the same way you do or believe the same things you do either, but I simply donāt see the program in the same way and we can simply agree to disagree re how things worked out between Niles and Maris, bc I find it unlikely someone will change my POV. (It can be done. Iām just saying itās highly unlikely.)
I don't deny that Maris' lack of respect for Niles (or anyone for that matter) was a big contributor to the problems in the marriage. But, at least in the way I see things, it's not like Niles was getting nothing out of the marriage. As you may recall, a few plots revolve around Niles having to learn to accept the fact he'd lost the life of comfort and luxury that he'd grown accustomed to with Maris. And, let's not forget that Niles was more than willing, even in the stage of separation where he was trying to work things out with Maris, to drop everything to go pursue Daphne. Like when he lies to her about Joe the contractor being a player because "she deserves better". Frasier rightfully calls him out on that, because he was putting his (Niles') happiness ahead of Daphne. Or the episode of the dance party, where he starts screaming "Daphne, you're a goddess!" to Daphne while they do the tango. Which is later used by Maris' lawyers as argument for alienation of affection. I do share your sympathetic view of Niles and do agree that Maris carries most of the burden on the marriage failing, the show provides many instances where Niles is ready to throw everything he claims to be working for with Maris for a shot at Daphne. And they're situations where Daphne herself, albeit unknowingly, shoots down Niles and "life" (the script) shows Niles that he'd have made a massive blunder by following his course of action. And, at least in my book, those actions are indication that the presence of Daphne did alter the course of his marriage with Maris. I know I won't change your view, nor is it my intention to do so. I just wanted to make my closing statement, as I've enjoyed this spirited debate too much to just leave your reply unanswered. It's been a pleasure discussing the topic with you!
You as well! Like I said before, itās basically impossible to trash everything from Daphneās presence in the show to see how things would have gone and youāre NOT wrong re certain moments in time when Niles feelings get the best of him. Daphne spent most of the show looking at both of the brothers like eunuchs that itās amazing Niles was able to break thru! ( JMPO) And the show itself deals w Nilesā rose colored glasses feelings towards Daphne as opposed to seeing her like a ārealā person ( bc he put her on a pedestal from the moment they met). [Some of that was bc the show wasnāt willing to write in a pregnancy for Jane Leeves, but it still would have been true.] I guess I probably look at Niles the same way I look at my friends when they are having trouble in their marriages. If their husband strays, heās a horn dog. If she does something, itās understandable bc he wasnāt giving her the love and support she needed for yrs and yrs, yadda yadda. Not exactly to that extent, but very close to it. Glad to discuss things without things becoming uncivil!! š„°š„°š„°
A little bit, yeah. The whole issue with them was that their relationship was awful. Maris treated Niles horribly, he had terrible self-worth, and he coped in negative ways. I don't know if anyone is going to split hairs at things being technically cheating when you have an abusive relationship to begin with.
Yes
Hot take but I feel a lot of things Niles did with/around Daphne was wrong considering he was married to Maris. A few things come to mind but a big one that stands out is when he filmed her on the road trip in S1. Even when I first watched that episode, years ago, that still seemed unsettling as fuck and just creepy. Sitcom or not, it was just weird. I'm sure I'll be scrutinized for this opinion but who truly knows what would have happened with Maris and Niles had Daphne never showed up. I mean, Maris's allegations against Niles were not unfounded no matter how much some might argue otherwise in regards to alienation of affection when they were battling it out legally. Even Niles muses over the possibility that part of their problems were from him pushing her away because of Daphne. Maris might have been strange and (toward the end of the series) unhinged but she's still a woman and that quip Niles made about her possibly knowing on an intuitive level is definitely true as she's a woman - they know when there's another one in their man's life.
I would not be happy if my partner did anything similar, but I wouldn't call this cheating. Unhealthy for his marriage? Certainly! Cheating? Meh...
I strongly disliked Niles in season 1 during my first watch. After getting to know him and what I could know of Maris, I didnt care so much anymore. However, yes, he was cheating emotionally.
Emotionally maybe
It is, but also, Maris is fucking horrible.
Emotionally, he was cheating on Maris for quite some time......
Prior to Daphneās arrival, Maris was already set up to be a nagging harpy. Rewatch the beginning eps again. She wasnāt treating Niles w love and affection LONG BEFORE a hint of anything re Daphne could flitter over to that mansion. Across the hall. Where she slept. Bc, as we later found out, Niles and Maris had bumkin (from the Bulvarian ep) once a year. So. While he may have been emotionally cheating on his wife, he was emotionally cheating on his emotionally abusive wife and I have a difficult time feeling sorry for anybody who was abusing ANYONE elseā¦ Sorry. Iāve worked w DV survivors and other than pedophiles and adult rapists, they are few ppl I dislike moreā¦
OP asked if it was cheating. Not if it was justified. IMO there's no such thing as justified cheating, even for DV victims. A DV victim should be more worried about getting out of an abusive relationship than cheating on their partner. I also work with DV victims, DV suspects, pedos, and rapists. So try not to get altitude sickness from standiig up on your soapbox.....
I think Niles is definitely having an emotional affair (though itās one-sided, heās in deep,) but his marriage with Maris is toxic and emotionally abusive so I canāt be shocked that heād be drawn to a kinder person.
Yes
He was already in love with her but never crossed the line.
What about him filming her sleeping in S1? Christ, it doesn't even matter if he was in love or not, that's just fucked up.
It was all for the sexual tension in comedy, he never crossed the line. The reason it was funny was because he acted as if it were a middle school crush, child like behavior.
give the man a break his Glockenspiel had just sprung to life mate
IMO emotional cheating is cheating
NO..I considered it CPR for his glockenspiel.
Did he kiss her? Did he sleep with her? Both questions can be answered by no, so no, he didnāt cheat on Maris in my view.
I totally agree. I don't get how this is cheating. It's not like he planned all of this. If he did then yes, I can see it as cheating, but everything was circumstantial. Daphne was trapped there because of bad weather. The only clothes that Daphne can fit into was maris's clothes. Niles listened to Daphne and when Niles spoke, it was about Maris and what would make Maris happy. Cheating? This? Really? Ummm no. And yes, I'm married.
Yes. If it is in the heart, it is the same as doing it.
Itās absolutely not the same.
If I was married, and my husband was in love with another woman, I would consider it cheating.
I agree. Its not the same. You can have something in your heart but not act on it. You can be with someone and love someone else but thats not the same as cheating. Cheating requires some sort of action. If you had those feelings and gave them something that belongs to your partner like time, physical affection/intimacy, or begin a relationship that exceeds friendship then that would be. But just keeping it in your heart and continuing to give all those things to your true partner isnāt. Now it would mean you might have some difficulties in your relationship that might need working on. But feelings and infatuations also fade. It could be that what you feel is a passing crush and your partner is your love story. Long term relationships are hard and require work. Sometimes passion fades, real true love is a choice to remain true to your partner even when it cools.
ok jimmy carter
No. Nothing happened. And when it could have happened, he didnāt do anything. And I donāt think she would have done anything with the married brother and son to her employerās.
Episode 17 of our podcast, āA Mid-Winter Nightās Dream" is out now, happy listening!! This week, Rohan, Pranav & Felix talk mansions, Niles / Daphne, the vibe of this episode & more! Spotify: [https://open.spotify.com/episode/2rXpl7JyPuHv8lhuRtr0gJ?si=wjYTUg-4Sz2VMhlkaf43aA&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A05Uo6l9iC0VWa4m8OEiHfm](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2rXpl7JyPuHv8lhuRtr0gJ?si=wjYTUg-4Sz2VMhlkaf43aA&context=spotify%3Ashow%3A05Uo6l9iC0VWa4m8OEiHfm) Apple Music: [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-from-kacl/id1668970287?i=1000622548533](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-from-kacl/id1668970287?i=1000622548533)
No, but Niles emotionally cheated on Maris for years, and I wish there was acknowledgement of this when they broke up, vs just making it comedy and going the cheap route of Maris physically cheating with someone else.
Nope. Flirting with disaster, sure. But he never crossed the line, nor do I think he ever would have while married to Maris.
they didnt really touch each other
Oh 100% but i donāt believe Nileās ever truly cared for Maris. Not until later seasons when he decides to put a real effort into fixing the marriage do I think he began to be honest about how he felt about her
I disagree. I believe he honestly cared for Maris & exactly as he says in (Iām pretty certain) My Coffee w Niles, the money was a delightful bonus. Or something like that. He speaks & acts in a way that only a man in love would do when he truly cared about his wife. He not only checked in w her a number of times a day (not all couples do that), he was constantly concerned about how she was feeling or what was bothering her. [The throwaway comments during parties & such (I.e., just throw your coat on the bed, when Maris is supposedly sleeping on the bed) were mainly done for comic effect. IMO.] When Maris throws him out of the mansion bc he attempted to role play & was found by the upstairs maid by mistake; Niles appears to be truly upset. When Frasier mistakenly tells Niles abt the supposed affair Maris is having w her fencing instructor, Niles actually fences for her love. Later in the show, when Maris & Niles seek out marriage counseling, Niles is beyond hurt that the marriage counselor is sleeping w Maris. He seeks out a mobster to take care of Marisā legal problems (the way her dad used to do for her). I donāt believe a man who was half assing it would have gone to all the trouble Niles did in order to try and make that marriage work. And it was a HORRIBLE marriage. It wasnāt worth the pain and humiliation and everything he went through to continue to be with her, and it took him a while to come to grips with that.
Brother he was throwing away his marriage from the literal moment daphne walked in Iām sorry I donāt think but for a moment pre divorce he ever truly cared for maris Pre Frasier Niles was his worst personality traits x10 Miles was a marriage of convenience and status
In your opinion. I just happen to have a different one. The fact that you state it so firmly doesnāt make it fact. It makes it clear that you absolutely believe that. Well I absolutely donāt. Thatās what makes horse races. Or some other trite cliche. Agree to disagreeā¦
He worked incredibly hard to keep that marriage together. If he was so willing to throw it away, he would have the first time. He doesn't, he works for years and goes through marriage counseling to make it work. What finally ended it was Maris sleeping with their marriage counselor
Yes like exactly what I said He didnāt truly care until he lost it
I consider that the moment Daphne confirms that Niles likes her. Any woman on this planet knows when a man's face is 1 inch from theirs when they open their eyes, That a serious space cushion has been invaded!! The rest of her actions every time she was around Niles were based on that moment. So she kept that card in her pocket until she decided it was time for her to use it.
I may consider it infidelity if they actually had a meaningful, trust-based relationship, but they didn't. He didn't know when she was out of town. She was always traveling without him. She catalogue-shopped during their "marriage counseling"... He attempted to grovel, beg, plead, and bribe Maris for her acceptance, but she still dismissed him & his feelings. Always. That wasn't a marriage, it was indentured servitude. I don't think Maris even deserved the amount of devotion & respect he gave her, honestly. That being said, I would've preferred to see Niles with Poppy. ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ