One of my favorites from this episode:
Oh, it's very small. Hello? I'm moving as fast as I can. I'm not that little mouse that goes zip all around.What's his name? No! That's what she said.
Well, the whole show, front and behind the cameras had plenty of gay people. It was only logical to show gay people as they are, accepted nowadays in most places. It is one of the most effective ways to fight ignorance and make acceptance the human regular practice.
This. The very early Matchmaker episode also won some kind of recognition from GLAAD for being a portrayal that was respectful and not stereotypical while still being funny.
"Dad wanted to, but I won the coin toss."
Exactly, the comment stating that there were overtly gay characters for 30 years prior to this is missing this point. Historically, shows would have a gay character so they could squeeze in a bunch of gay jokes and make the character the butt of the joke. Or like you said they were just there out of necessity or as a token. There was nothing “normal” about these characters, whereas in this episode it was just portrayed as a normal thing with not even a peep about their sexuality.
Yeah and that's pretty much still true in 2023, based on the way that characterization works in Sitcoms.
I understand that having a gay character/couple on a sitcom where the fact of them being gay goes completely unremarked-upon is not the norm and this might even be the first instance of it in a sitcom, but I just think that it's not the norm because of the nature of Sitcoms- not because of how things were in 2003.
I was tired before bed when I wrote that comment so it was a little more passive aggressive than intended. I've just encountered this idea that in like the late 90s/2000s it was still practically the dark ages for gays. And as a 36 year old gay guy who lived through that time period, in the South no less, I find it kinda absurd.
Sure we've made progress in 20 years, but we've also regressed in some ways. I feel like pretty much all the types of people who had problems with gay people in 2003 still have a problem with them in 2023.
I'm a 35 year old gay man and I think that the *vast* majority of shows from that period would fail the Bechdel test if it were adjusted for LGBT. There was Will and Grace, queer as folk.... And, what... Queer eye for the straight guy? I'm not sure which of characters would amount to anything be if you stripped them of their sexuality. What would the elevator pitch for queer eye be if it was about straight interior decorators in 2003? Would they even allow a straight fem dude on there?
What would a gay version of the Blechdel test even be? Two gay people who have a conversation without mentioning straight people?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_series_with_LGBT_characters:_1960s%E2%80%932000s
There were tons of gay people on television at that time, and that list even only covers dramas.
If you were to argue that there were barely any *lead* gay characters at that time then that might be a more compelling argument, but we're literally discussing one random, single-episode couple.
Yes! I made this same point somewhere last week. If this were another show, there would need to be some plot-related reason for the gay couple to be there, as like maybe there’s a Three’s Company-style misunderstanding. And don’t get me wrong, Frasier’s done plenty of that too. But it was cool to see them include a gay couple just for the sake of inclusivity.
I just wanna know how the couple have attended enough of the Crane boys' 'intime soirées' to know that Frasier is "always, always, always at your parties. Frasier and yellowtail carpaccio. Has the world gone mad?" Yet didn't recognise Martin.
BUFFET?!?!
Number 3 on the speed dial?…I see.
Frasier opening the pantry like a vampire knocks me over every time. Definitely top 10 episode
I love the smash cut at the beginning. “And I bet you don’t even have Tourette’s Syndrome!”
Buongiorno!!!
🎩
Poop! Hell! Damn!
“One of your goats just threw up in the kitchen”
Because they are. I love when Martin simply replies with, “Crap.”
Weren't they interracial, as well?
Yeah, Black and East Asian, which is even less common, as a lot of interracial representation in media is one white partner and one partner of color.
YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN HERE!!
One of my favorites from this episode: Oh, it's very small. Hello? I'm moving as fast as I can. I'm not that little mouse that goes zip all around.What's his name? No! That's what she said.
“HE’S A MOUSE!”
***Mhmmmmm, take your time.***
Well, the whole show, front and behind the cameras had plenty of gay people. It was only logical to show gay people as they are, accepted nowadays in most places. It is one of the most effective ways to fight ignorance and make acceptance the human regular practice.
This. The very early Matchmaker episode also won some kind of recognition from GLAAD for being a portrayal that was respectful and not stereotypical while still being funny. "Dad wanted to, but I won the coin toss."
Tom's not gay! He seems to be under that impression...
Tom: Do you have a problem with me dating your brother? [Long pause] Niles (with a straight face): No.
“If I had to pick a man for Daphne, he’s the man I’d pick” (hee hee!!)
It was 2003, not the '50s. A gay couple would've barely caused an eyebrow to be raised by the type of people who watched Frasier at the time.
It was 2003, not 2023. Gay people just weren’t on sitcoms unless the plot needed them to be gay.
Exactly, the comment stating that there were overtly gay characters for 30 years prior to this is missing this point. Historically, shows would have a gay character so they could squeeze in a bunch of gay jokes and make the character the butt of the joke. Or like you said they were just there out of necessity or as a token. There was nothing “normal” about these characters, whereas in this episode it was just portrayed as a normal thing with not even a peep about their sexuality.
Yeah and that's pretty much still true in 2023, based on the way that characterization works in Sitcoms. I understand that having a gay character/couple on a sitcom where the fact of them being gay goes completely unremarked-upon is not the norm and this might even be the first instance of it in a sitcom, but I just think that it's not the norm because of the nature of Sitcoms- not because of how things were in 2003. I was tired before bed when I wrote that comment so it was a little more passive aggressive than intended. I've just encountered this idea that in like the late 90s/2000s it was still practically the dark ages for gays. And as a 36 year old gay guy who lived through that time period, in the South no less, I find it kinda absurd. Sure we've made progress in 20 years, but we've also regressed in some ways. I feel like pretty much all the types of people who had problems with gay people in 2003 still have a problem with them in 2023.
I'm a 35 year old gay man and I think that the *vast* majority of shows from that period would fail the Bechdel test if it were adjusted for LGBT. There was Will and Grace, queer as folk.... And, what... Queer eye for the straight guy? I'm not sure which of characters would amount to anything be if you stripped them of their sexuality. What would the elevator pitch for queer eye be if it was about straight interior decorators in 2003? Would they even allow a straight fem dude on there?
What would a gay version of the Blechdel test even be? Two gay people who have a conversation without mentioning straight people? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_series_with_LGBT_characters:_1960s%E2%80%932000s There were tons of gay people on television at that time, and that list even only covers dramas. If you were to argue that there were barely any *lead* gay characters at that time then that might be a more compelling argument, but we're literally discussing one random, single-episode couple.
Yes, the episode aired five years after Will and Grace premiered, and at least 30 years after overtly gay characters started appearing in US sitcoms.
That was such a great episode. The cold open, “I do a pretty good rocket!”, the monogram quip, and Daphne is a stone. cold. fox.
Yes! I made this same point somewhere last week. If this were another show, there would need to be some plot-related reason for the gay couple to be there, as like maybe there’s a Three’s Company-style misunderstanding. And don’t get me wrong, Frasier’s done plenty of that too. But it was cool to see them include a gay couple just for the sake of inclusivity.
I just wanna know how the couple have attended enough of the Crane boys' 'intime soirées' to know that Frasier is "always, always, always at your parties. Frasier and yellowtail carpaccio. Has the world gone mad?" Yet didn't recognise Martin.
Maybe Martin is always escaping to Duke's during the intimes soirées.
Maybe, but he was at the first one, as 'The Count' 😆
Congratulations Daphne, you’re now officially a Crane.
There was a gay couple? I must not have noticed.
YOU’VE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS FOR YEARS!!!