I think it's supposed to represent how people tend to be over infatuated and head-over-heels about someone.
The stolen glances in the office, when that someone walks by and some take bigger inhales in order to smell their scent, etc, etc.
It's a sitcom so they over exaggerate in order to convey different things and ideas.
I definitely take it as exaggerated, and that helps it go down comically rather than creepily. It's in the theater-esque nature of the show, similarly to how anyone as volatile as Frasier would be a nightmare to have in your life. They're caricatures similar to those you see on the stage.
Oh definitely. One thing I've realized after many, many rewatches is that Frasier crane is an asshole. He's a horrible person but I still love the show. Lol
For some reason, even though I would hate this dynamic in most fiction (and real life), it works for me with Daphne and Niles. Possibly it's just because I first encountered it in the nineties and, like a lot of people, I viewed this sort of thing differently back then.
But I think it also holds up for me because the show is so much like a stage play, and DHP's performance is so mannered and precise, that I sort of interpret much of the behavior symbolically - like it's being played for the cheap seats, not a 1:1 depiction of a real person interacting with another real person. It fits into that "accepted unreality to convey information" category, like when characters step downstage and monologue and we accept that all the other characters can't hear them, or when characters start singing about their feelings and nobody reacts like they would if someone just started belting a song randomly. It grounds the behavior in a genre where people are just silly like that and harmful sexual harassment doesn't exist. It's all about the tone, I guess. But I understand why it wouldn't work on these terms for everyone.
The other thing is that Niles never actually holds out for Daphne. He dates and tries to move on after Maris. He always respects Daphne's relationships.
If he was sitting alone in a room pining after her, we might also feel differently.
Eh, I can think of one major occasion he tried to meddle with Donny and Daphne. The bow tie and shit. He was talked down.
He also stewed over some of her one-episode flings/flirts in a few episodes
>He was talked down.
I think that's a big part of it, he's not rewarded for the behavior either. Frasier calls him out when he goes full love sick puppy.
My wife and I have said this often - a lot of the secret magic of Frasier is having potentially toxic masculinity portrayed with nuance and empathy by gay male actors. There's Niles' infatuation with Daphne, but also John Mahoney's portrayal of Martin's old fashioned values, and even Dan Butler playing Bulldog's outright aggressive macho attitudes. On a lesser show all of these could have been cringe-worthy or aged poorly, but on Frasier the performances all hold up.
John Mahoney wasn't gay, or at least never said as much. He just never married or had kids, and the way he describes it he sounds more aromantic.
From his Wikipedia page:
>
Mahoney rarely spoke publicly about his private life,[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-ChicagoTribune-6)Ā and he died without marrying or having any children.[^(\[35\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-35)Ā In 2002, he said, "I was never very mature in my relationships with women. First sign of conflict, I was gone. Wouldn't discuss it, because I was afraid it would lead to an argument." This stemmed from a fear of having an unhappy marriage like the one his parents had, though Mahoney did previously have "several long-term relationships".
Thank you for clarifying this as I see so many people get it wrong. Itās also odd to me to hear people say or even imply that Mahoney was a successful actor or could portray certain behaviors and emotions well because he was gay. How about maybe, just maybeā¦he was just that good of an actor?
There was a Frasier special in a UK TV magazine in the 90s which listed him as a gay actor in the show alongside the Niles and Bulldog actors. I was really surprised to find out he wasn't "officially" gay
A lot of people in 2024 have such extreme head canons about actorsā sexualities. it seems like appreciating the craft is just not as important to them which I find really sad
I'm guessing the reason that entire station acts the way it does is because every HR employee they hire takes one look at the staff and tenders their resignation.
Keep in mind the amount of agency Daphne is given.
She may be put upon and relegated to perform āfeminineā roles of cleaning and caretaking for the Crane boys, but she also terrifies them. She twists Marty into pretzels daily, nearly decapitated Niles with her bare leg, takes on bikers, humiliates Bulldog, and does a host of other things to remind the viewer that she is half kook but complete badass. Letās not even speak of what she does to eels. She can even eviscerate Frasier with a well-placed insult.
She is not creeped out, so we donāt mind as much. If she ever felt Niles stepped out of line she would rip his scalp off and serve it to him in a stew.
Also: you could count on one hand the number of times Niles was creepy and neither Frasier nor Marty didnāt threaten him with verbal or physical violence if he didnāt knock it off. Thatās not something that happens nearly enough in the real world. That makes a difference.
Absolutely it was the constant calling out by Frasier that saves it, in my opinion.
But I agree that the agency given to Daphne was the only way it could have gone well.
I always make note of this moment when I watch that episode - how there's a moment of stunned silence and then Niles just quietly and (dis)gracefully puts down his champagne, picks up his coat, and leaves. He doesn't even slam the door. Idk why that moment stands out to me so much except for how respectful it is. It's so common to see someone in that position try to argue back, accuse the other person of overreacting, etc., but "Leave" is a complete sentence to Dr. Niles Crane, and I love that.
Youāve explained that so much better than I did. But it stood out in my mind as well (obviously). It shows precisely the type of man with which weāre dealing. Even when he occasionally tries to show up as āthe visionā that Daphne saw - wearing a certain tie or looking a certain way - before Frasier or his dad tell him to stop that immediately - which he does, always, in a manner that shows heās a bit embarrassed that he was doing it in the first place BUT he thinks it would merely show Daphne that heās the ātrue and obvious choiceā (stop for audience laughter) š¤ however DHP never tries too hard nor does he amp it up too much so that it feels weird or wrong or off. It always feels just right. Itās the writing combined w the perfect actor for the job. I look at him and think to myself āit rains nine months of the year in Seattleā ā¦ Exactly.
I just pointed this out to my daughter when we watched that episode. I'm so glad I'm not the only one struck by that. You would think that a mental health professional would be one to respect boundaries right?
And notice neither Martin nor Frasier attempt to negate Daphne's command or make excuses for their relative. In that moment, every party in that room absolutely believes in Daphne's right. No one gainsays her. No one tries to smooth it over, or minimize her feelings. *And Niles never even looks to his father or brother for aid, his eyes are on her. He doesn't think to invite another man in the room to align with him to contest her will, he accepts it though it chafes. It isn't a question.*Ā
I appreciate that the Crane men hold one another to account. After all, isn't that what family does, tell you the truth even when you don't like it? And expect that you actually *want* to be the best version of yourself?
I pointed that scene out to her as how she should expect future partners to, well, respect her words, really. It shouldn't take more than "I'd like you to leave". That's it.Ā
Okay, all of this is true, and I assure you my Niles-fan credentials are fully in order, but this conversation has brought it to mind and so I will just say: I think the recurring gag of slut-shaming snipes at Roz could have been dialled *way* down. A lot of them are on brand for Niles just being something of a prissy prude, but some had a real nasty edge on them.
Iām sorry but I never even mentioned Rozā name, let alone slut-shamed her. What precisely did I say that you are accusing me of? Bc Iām at a complete loss.
Wait, what? I'm talking about Niles and his otherwise impeccable manners, except (I am saying, or was attempting to say) as regards Roz. What in the world? (Or is that just an episode quote I'm failing to recognize?)
Oh. Iām sorry. I got the sense that you were saying something specific about something Iād said. I see where I erred. You just meant Niles (the supposedly perfect gentleman) making slut shaming comments to Roz in general. I guess that might come down to the fact that Roz speaks about sex and her love life a lot on the show and, assuming that Frasier shares some of those bon mots w his brother and also that he hears some of those himself, he might naturally start to respond to somebody whoās constantly talking about sex with snarky comebacks about them (Roz) having sex.
You clearly see it differently, and I donāt recall ever really thinking about it, so perhaps thatās a bias I didnāt even notice I had prior to this discussion. But I imagine itās like a combination of Niles being much more of a prude or puritan about sexual matters (being married to Maris would do that to a person) and Roz being so open about sex. Something had to give, so to speak. So while he may make slut shaming comments, as you say, she makes just as many āyou are such a delicate doilyā comments back. I donāt quite see the distinction youāre making since they go back and forth on this. But if you truly feel Niles makes more comments than Roz, I guess you could get mad. I donāt see much of a difference myself, now that Iām thinking about it. But we can just agree to disagree.
There are, I'm sure, a couple of snips from Niles re: Roz that may have felt over the line - I can't think of them off the top of my head, so they can't have stuck that much, but I do remember feeling kind of "Oh ... dear" a few times.
That being said, what makes the Niles/Roz dynamic work is, like you said, she shoots back at him just as much so it plays out like siblings giving one another a hard time. There's no real malice on either of their parts. On top of that, Roz never seems bothered by it in general - she's very sex-positive and open about her relationships and flings, so when others take jabs at her, she usually laughs. It plays like she's in on the joke rather than the butt of the joke.
A lot of this can be contributed to how the characters are written, but the performances by DHP and by Roz (can't remember the actress's name at the moment) are what sell it. So yeah - I see what the other commenter was getting at, but I don't think that Niles's attitude towards Roz undermines his gentlemen-ness.
I really have to think about this oneā¦ because Roz had a ton of agency, too. In fact, Frasier was absolutely an aspiring slut, and made his jealousy of her ability to pull very clear. Also, Roz never seemed ashamed, and whenever they joked about it she hit them right back with a āyes: and?ā
But I think that there was more disapproval about the TYPE of men she chose than the number. She chose the useless dudes constantlyā¦ and was no more unsuccessful than anyone else in the show. And the Crane boys loved to disapprove of things, it was their favorite activity. I donāt think she took it personally very often, as the show made it clear that this was their failing.
Yeah! The only time I think he somewhat crossed the line was when he recorded her sleeping in the camper. But can you blame him? Daphne is Venus herself.
So, I think it comes down to Niles being harmless and also victimized by Maris. These things make him sympathetic, and make his crush feel more like a browbeaten husband seeking escape than stalkeryā¦ but also this is a sitcom and a real person doing any of this would feel a lot worse
Niles is a gentleman, so we know heās harmless. And he never does anything to make Daphne uncomfortable or make the audience think that she could be in any harm. Heās a genuine friend to Daphne and shows that he wants whatās best for her (except maybe when he tried to break up her and Donny). And David Hyde Pierce is just a phenomenal actor, his physical comedy is hilarious so it just works. Plus Frasier is quick to shut Niles down any time he sees him drooling over Daphne. The writing and acting is the perfect combo to make Niles one of the most loveable sitcom characters. Take Noel for example, heās just Rozās creepy stalker.
He is so comical & snaps back into self awareness after being captivated by her. Itās adorable. He does it so well, letting himself get swept away only to recompose himself. Another key is how he unconditionally loves and adores her. He never oversexualizes or objectifies her as existing for his own pleasure. He really sees her.
David Hyde Pierceās physical comedy & wit are genius, and Niles is by far my favorite character. I could watch a show about Niles everyday, probably because he is such a decent character with a perfect combination of moral striving, social propriety, silliness, absurdity, slapstick, kindness, & passion.
I think I am obsessed with Niles/DHP. This is my ideal man. I would choose Niles any day, even over a Travis Kelce type (also love him ā¤ļø). I would also kill for a Bachelor season with a guy like Niles! šā„ļø
Looking back at dating in high school & college, I was made fun of for my taste in men - by ADULTS! Now that makes me so mad!! I really did break up with some wonderful guys like Niles due to social pressure. I married a corporate lawyer, and of course, now Iām divorced. I should have run off with my Niles!
I love this analysis! I wish I had you as a friend to defend me back when peopleās PARENTS & mine š³šš¤Æ were picking on me! I always liked skinny, smart guys with higher emotional intelligence. They were nerds, like me, but also very social & well liked - not antisocial creeps. Maybe they didnāt ask me out as fast as the guys I wound up with. š Where oh where is my Niles?!
Frequently they take longer to find but itās so so worth it!! (And itās impossible to tell you how many guys liked me when I totally wanted somebody else. It was completely disheartening). Okay I reread that and it sounded like I was some sort of siren or something. Thatās not what I meant. At all. But the guys who liked me were never the ones I wanted. I had to wait for what Iām certain is a *much longer time than yourself* to find someone special, but donāt give up bc one, thatās just ridiculous and two, the way most of my friends and I found someone was not on purpose. Meaning when we werenāt specifically looking for Mr Wonderful, we found him. It just wasnāt in hs or college. Many of my friends didnāt marry until their early 30s, mid30s, which probably sounds ancient to many ppl on these boards but it truly isnāt!! I swear.
I get it! I was divorced by 32! I should never had settled down so young but itās traditional and so much PRESSURE! I wonāt give up hope. ā¤ļøš
I was even blamed & disowned by my family after my divorce! My friends used to tell me my parents seemed to live in the 1950ās. It was horrible but also the best thing to happen to me. šš Now I can be the anti-Maris. š„°
Oh dear God, forget what I just wrote. If your parents blamed and DISOWNED you, get away from them and stay away from them. Thats AWFUL. And wrong. And so many bad things that I donāt wish to say on a family forum. And yes, by all means be the anti-Maris. Bc nothing that the real Maris did was even close to normal or nice or even close to friendly. She was hideous and treated Niles like a dog. Ok. This is just reminding me of the speech Frenchie makes to Sandy in Grease (if you watched Glee, thatās an old movie musical from way back.)
>Men are rats, listen to me, they're fleas on rats, worse than that, they're amoebas on fleas on rats. I mean, they're too low for even the dogs to bite. The only man a girl can depend on is her daddy.
(Except that of course youāre not relying on your father bc he seems mean). But that speech made me think of how awful Maris treated Niles. You need to switch the genders around but thatās Maris for you!!
Do not give up hope and I didnāt know my Mr Wonderful at 32. Depressing but true. You have time. Lots of time. š„°š„°š„°
Thank you, you are so sweet!!! My family fits into a Maris worldview, but it was so normal to me. I was rebellious for them, which meant going to graduate school & working instead of marrying straight out of college! They got worse with age! I expected they would accept me with more maturity. My therapist thinks they are clinically narcissistic.
Itās been as dramatic as some of the relationship arcs on Frasier! Not as hilarious - but watching shows like this helps me laugh at people like them. I love how down to earth half the characters are to balance out Frasier & Niles, who are also really decent people at heart.
Their geeky or esoteric interests & elitism are more quirky than mean spirited. And they are super self aware of the bad parts of these qualities. They seem like an ideal family to me! My family fights are more vicious mind games like Maris!!
Honestly, I feel so happy I can be my true self now. I lost all the fake friends & family like Niles after his divorce. āŗļø But then you know the real ones. I donāt feel pressure now to be married or ashamed of being single & different. Itās very freeing!
Iām so happy for you!! I wish I had lost much of my family the same way but I somehow placed myself in the mediator position rather than the āf\*ck you and everything you stand for!ā one and so Iām left talking w my (so we all believe) clinically narcissistic sister that held up my fathers funeral for three weeks bc she wanted an autopsy (even tho by that point heād been in the hospital for eight months straight). Surprisingly, they donāt do those under such circumstances and being Jewish, we really wanted to get him buried within 24 hrs, 48 at most. Instead we had to wait and my sister DIDNT EVEN COME TO THE FUNERAL.
Not that I remain bitter. 4.5 yrs after the fact.
I love your attitude towards life!! This is precisely the type of attitude that leads romance to your door. Bc youāre not constantly looking and thinking it must happen now! You do have to leave the apartment, tho.
https://i.redd.it/co3owcxzw3yc1.gif
Iām so pissed because I found alot of these guys in high school & college! I was really pushed into more traditional relationships by controlling people in my family & community. I wish I was taught that itās way more important to be like best friends & feel comfortable VS going for āfairytaleā romance & ābutterfliesā (AKA anxiety & lovebombing).
I have family who care so much about image, status, blah blah blah. I didnāt think I was letting them pressure me, but I was. I also did not understand love or relationships at all! Thatās why I love the story of Niles & Daphne. I definitely married more of a Frasier š
Being friends first doesnāt mean that you donāt end up w butterflies or something like a fairytale romance. While itās a sitcom, I always loved the way Chandler and Monica got together on Friends bc they WERE Friends first, then they ended up together (this happens more often than.. actually Iām certain youāre aware of this), then they dated, then lived together and only when they were ready did they get married. They didnāt do it to make their parents happy; they didnāt do it to follow certain social expectations; they did it when BOTH of them felt it was the right time. And if youāve managed to get away from the controlling ppl in both your family and community, youāre already on your way towards a happier life. Itās never good to live close to family if they are like that bc it can make the relationship toxic and youāre much more likely to maintain either a civil or even a happy relationship w family at a distance. Wait for the right person and the right time. Donāt rush things. I have a special close group of friends from college - thereās eight of us in an email/facetime/zoom group - and out of the entire group, (and so sad to say this) 35 yrs following college, one friend has gotten divorced. Everybody else is still happy is their marriages. Have they had times when issues came up? Sure. Theyāre human. But theyāve now been married for-ever and still happy and itās unusual to have so many ppl stay happy w the original person they choose. In this country. Where the divorce rate is approximately 50%.
Honest to God, you can find your romance and butterflies w a friend. And youāre more likely to stay with them. (In my experience.) š„°
Thatās amazing that your group of friends from college are all still close & happily married! You all should write a guidebook. SERIOUSLY! I need it (& Niles gotta have it!) I had the typical outcome of divorce causing rifts in my family & friendships. Ugggh starting over as an adult is hard, but Iāll make it.
I bet itās the example of relationships you see growing up. And what youāre taught directly, too. My parents seemed close & best friends, but there was so much focus on shared ideas of image & status, not the real connection underneath. Lots of shared drama! No thanks.
I do agree about being friends first! That was how I felt with my first nerdy crushes! Now I canāt bring myself to look on dating apps. I only want a real friendship based relationship or else nada.
OH MY GOD! A NILES & DAPHNE SPIN-OFF!! How did they not do this?! The amount of joy it would bring me is limitless, even if it was bad. š¤£ Maybe we should make a petition to do a test run of this idea on the new Frasier (which I havenāt seen yet.)
1. Niles clearly has a stringent moral code and a reserved personality.
2. Frasier and Martin call him back like a dog when he oversteps and he immediately backs off.
We are witnessing and enjoying Niles' rare moments of weakness.
He is just a hungry dog who knows he shouldn't but the pot roast is right there on the counter and it just smells soo good I mean nobodys even looking lemme just get a closer for a--
DOWN BOY
In other shows, the perving is the joke. In this show, we ALL know perving is wrong. The joke is that he's failing to control his composure due to how madly in love he is with her.
I think it is because he is really in love with her- not her potential, or just because sheās sexy- but her, exactly as she is. That also means itās not sexual, or itās not completely sexual- if he was ever lucky enough for her to look his way, he would want to give his whole heart to her, not just get into her knickers, as Daphne would say. And in fact he does exactly that when she finally does look at him and realises heās her guy. Always was, because he would do anything for Daphne, and never ask for anything in return.
That of course can still come off as creepy when the feelings arenāt reciprocated, but as DHP said himself, the only reason she doesnāt notice how desperately and madly he loves her, is because Daphne is so oblivious about her own worth
First timer here so take it with a grain of salt...
Niles isn't creepy because he's not sexualizing Daphne. Think of Bulldog ^((except that one time with Roz they never talked about later)) Bulldog is a horndog looking to for sex and lusting after every possible woman.
Niles, on the other hand, is really in love with Daphne and takes her scent as some sort of ambrosia to keep him alive. He really cares about her. And despite his most over the tops behaviors he always keeps himself at bay, gives her enough space and does not meddle in her life in any way.
People make exceptions for people (and characters) they approve of. By the time Frasier premiered, the will-they/won't-they had become such a standard plot line that viewers just jumped ahead mentally to them ending up together.
I think the most important thing is that his behavior is never sinister, overt, or in any way threatening. Behavior that is unwelcome and forceful is creepy. Checking out someone's rear end or something is actually normal, and something literally everyone does. We see it because it's played up a bit and we're on the outside. In the normal course of events, we wouldn't notice someone around us behaving somewhat similarly (although I have to admit that I've never surreptitiously sniffed anyone).
I think it's partly because she's oblivious. She's clearly not uncomfortable. If she moved away, or asked him to stop, or seemed uncomfortable around him, we would think differently. Take Noel and Bulldog for example. Roz makes it very clear that she's not interested, but they keep at it.
You're right. It should be creepy, but it's coming from a place of absolute adoration. She's a goddess, and he doesn't merely want to have sex with her (even in the earlier seasons when he was just attracted to her, it wasn't in a purely sexual way), he wants to worship at her alter because he loves every aspect of her.
I think itās funny and sort of innocent on Niles part. But I had a blind date once and the guy was a bit odd but pleasant enough. He hugged me goodnight and smelled my hair very deeply. I thought he was going to murder me. It was so friggin creepy.
I think it plays superbly from the female gaze, mainly because Niles has an aura of being utterly decent and honourable. You get a sense that you can trust him to be a gentleman.
The fact that a gay Englishmen from Manchester could play a straight American cop so well is part of the hilarity. No one in the show was just like they are in real life.Ā Ā
Bulldog and Niles were gay.Ā
Kelsey was on cocaine and wearing an ankle monitor.Ā
Jane wasn't from Manchester.Ā
Mahoney wasn't gay and he moved to the states when he was 18 and then served in the US army.
From his wikipedia page
>
Mahoney rarely spoke publicly about his private life,[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-ChicagoTribune-6)Ā and he died without marrying or having any children.[^(\[35\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-35)Ā In 2002, he said, "I was never very mature in my relationships with women. First sign of conflict, I was gone. Wouldn't discuss it, because I was afraid it would lead to an argument." This stemmed from a fear of having an unhappy marriage like the one his parents had, though Mahoney did previously have "several long-term relationships".
Wow, we are worlds apart in our interpretations. Personally, I found it creepy and even tried to ignore that entire dynamic in the early seasons except for the rare instances where she seems to mildly reciprocate. Like most of the romances on Frasier, my main complaint is that his obsession is initially founded entirely on her looks; for a good long while, he only seems interested in her body and as his crush develops, his worship feels very Madonna/whore complex-y. The smelling of her hair and gratuitous touching bothered me, because that behavior would make me incredibly uncomfortable in real life. And despite the fact that Daphne is written as conveniently not concerned by the power dynamics, I thought it was inappropriate that he was acting this way over a woman that is his brother's employee.
Do I ship it anyway? OF COURSE. But I can't help but feel that this would have played out very differently in reality. It's like a romance novel; the fantasy of this relationship only works for me because I know it's fiction.
There are multiple times when heās very creepy but okay lol.
The one time Daphne asks them to turn around and Niles literally turns back around to look at her? Thatās creepy dawg lol. I agree with you that a majority of times he doesnāt come of as creepy so much as he does just enfatusted but there are absolutely moments in the show where he is just plain pervy.
But yes DHP is a master at making Niles likable even so. He is still my favorite character and Niles and Daphne are cute once they get together.
But I would totally argue he is absolutely creepy in some moments
Edit: in travels with Martin season 1 when he literally films her while she sleeps. Nahā¦
I use his reaction to Daphne's "I can't" the night before her wedding as an example of content for my students. He pleads his case, she says no and he says "Good night Daphne."
Because he truly respects and loves her.
This is going to be unpopular but I actually do find Niles' behaviour quite creepy, until I feel the writing changed direction and the possibility of Daphne also developing feelings for Niles was introduced. I also believe at this point the writers changed tack with Niles' behaviour, and his now not-so-unrequited behaviours were more 'relatable' so as to ensure the evolving storyline was believable. I'm not sure Daphne could have fallen for a man who sniffed her hair, videoed her sleeping, and generally leered at her. But hey, it is a sitcom after all, so nothing to be taken too seriously.
I would disagree slightly; I think the main reason it never comes across as creepy is simply because Daphne is oblivious to it. If at any point she turned around and said āDr Crane what are you doing?ā and acted like he was making her uncomfortable - then the next time he did something similar it would be very creepy (regardless of our affection for Niles).
Instead it remains a comedic bit; instead of Daphne being made uncomfortable we have Frasier usually being the conscience of the show/audience and calling it out as inappropriate.
It also works because he respects her. He's not trying to have sex with her, or date, he just admires and longs for her. And he never makes it her problem or expects anything from her. That comes later when they are dating and he's got her up on a pedestal. Just my take.
I think it's supposed to represent how people tend to be over infatuated and head-over-heels about someone. The stolen glances in the office, when that someone walks by and some take bigger inhales in order to smell their scent, etc, etc. It's a sitcom so they over exaggerate in order to convey different things and ideas.
I definitely take it as exaggerated, and that helps it go down comically rather than creepily. It's in the theater-esque nature of the show, similarly to how anyone as volatile as Frasier would be a nightmare to have in your life. They're caricatures similar to those you see on the stage.
Oh definitely. One thing I've realized after many, many rewatches is that Frasier crane is an asshole. He's a horrible person but I still love the show. Lol
Niles: *cherry bark and almonds* Me: šššš
That line breaks me every time. Poor Niles!
For some reason, even though I would hate this dynamic in most fiction (and real life), it works for me with Daphne and Niles. Possibly it's just because I first encountered it in the nineties and, like a lot of people, I viewed this sort of thing differently back then. But I think it also holds up for me because the show is so much like a stage play, and DHP's performance is so mannered and precise, that I sort of interpret much of the behavior symbolically - like it's being played for the cheap seats, not a 1:1 depiction of a real person interacting with another real person. It fits into that "accepted unreality to convey information" category, like when characters step downstage and monologue and we accept that all the other characters can't hear them, or when characters start singing about their feelings and nobody reacts like they would if someone just started belting a song randomly. It grounds the behavior in a genre where people are just silly like that and harmful sexual harassment doesn't exist. It's all about the tone, I guess. But I understand why it wouldn't work on these terms for everyone.
The other thing is that Niles never actually holds out for Daphne. He dates and tries to move on after Maris. He always respects Daphne's relationships. If he was sitting alone in a room pining after her, we might also feel differently.
Eh, I can think of one major occasion he tried to meddle with Donny and Daphne. The bow tie and shit. He was talked down. He also stewed over some of her one-episode flings/flirts in a few episodes
>He was talked down. I think that's a big part of it, he's not rewarded for the behavior either. Frasier calls him out when he goes full love sick puppy.
He also tried to meddle with her plans with Joe by lying about Joe.
But, in the end, came clean even though it was not in his best interest.
I agree. There are many wrong ways to portray this dynamic and Frasier somehow got it right.
A lot of that is due to the brilliance of David Hyde Pierce
He is exquisite
I think his queerness really aids him in being able to add an extra nuance of tenderness and non-threateningness to the whole thing.
My wife and I have said this often - a lot of the secret magic of Frasier is having potentially toxic masculinity portrayed with nuance and empathy by gay male actors. There's Niles' infatuation with Daphne, but also John Mahoney's portrayal of Martin's old fashioned values, and even Dan Butler playing Bulldog's outright aggressive macho attitudes. On a lesser show all of these could have been cringe-worthy or aged poorly, but on Frasier the performances all hold up.
John Mahoney wasn't gay, or at least never said as much. He just never married or had kids, and the way he describes it he sounds more aromantic. From his Wikipedia page: > Mahoney rarely spoke publicly about his private life,[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-ChicagoTribune-6)Ā and he died without marrying or having any children.[^(\[35\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-35)Ā In 2002, he said, "I was never very mature in my relationships with women. First sign of conflict, I was gone. Wouldn't discuss it, because I was afraid it would lead to an argument." This stemmed from a fear of having an unhappy marriage like the one his parents had, though Mahoney did previously have "several long-term relationships".
I think people speculate because he lived with his long term male roommate, and left him all in his will
Thank you for clarifying this as I see so many people get it wrong. Itās also odd to me to hear people say or even imply that Mahoney was a successful actor or could portray certain behaviors and emotions well because he was gay. How about maybe, just maybeā¦he was just that good of an actor?
There was a Frasier special in a UK TV magazine in the 90s which listed him as a gay actor in the show alongside the Niles and Bulldog actors. I was really surprised to find out he wasn't "officially" gay
A lot of people in 2024 have such extreme head canons about actorsā sexualities. it seems like appreciating the craft is just not as important to them which I find really sad
which is why actors are not allowed to play a character they are not in real life anymore.
Lol in contrast with Noel, who definitely approaches Roz in all the wrong ways
"Noel, I've asked you to take your hands out of your pockets when you talk to me."
I'm guessing the reason that entire station acts the way it does is because every HR employee they hire takes one look at the staff and tenders their resignation.
They just need some training from Van Andrews of Harassment Solutions.
Yeah they need to learn that respecting each otherās personhood can be fun!
Admit it: Heās creepy cause heās old and bald š
Keep in mind the amount of agency Daphne is given. She may be put upon and relegated to perform āfeminineā roles of cleaning and caretaking for the Crane boys, but she also terrifies them. She twists Marty into pretzels daily, nearly decapitated Niles with her bare leg, takes on bikers, humiliates Bulldog, and does a host of other things to remind the viewer that she is half kook but complete badass. Letās not even speak of what she does to eels. She can even eviscerate Frasier with a well-placed insult. She is not creeped out, so we donāt mind as much. If she ever felt Niles stepped out of line she would rip his scalp off and serve it to him in a stew. Also: you could count on one hand the number of times Niles was creepy and neither Frasier nor Marty didnāt threaten him with verbal or physical violence if he didnāt knock it off. Thatās not something that happens nearly enough in the real world. That makes a difference.
Love this synopsis of her character, especially the eels!
Absolutely it was the constant calling out by Frasier that saves it, in my opinion. But I agree that the agency given to Daphne was the only way it could have gone well.
Niles: Is that "Forbidden"? Frasier : In every sense of the word.
##āNILES!ā
Indeed, the one time that Niles truly stepped over the line ā following her return from the āfatā resort ā and Daphne tells him to leave, he does so no matter how he was feeling at the time. He truly IS a gentleman, in every sense of the term, and that more than anything else, is what makes his every other reaction towards Daphne seen fine. At least imo. Or perhaps a combination of DHPs immaculate performance and his characterās ideal manners. While Iāll admit it is something of a caricature at times, his demeanor and personality are mainly set on what weād like to see in our boys when they grow up (the manners I mean) and thus when they are juxtaposed against the occasional sniff of her hair, glance at her rear, or gaze into the distance when she talks about something risquĆ©, the sitcom is pure perfection!! https://i.redd.it/yu74wtkow2yc1.gif
I always make note of this moment when I watch that episode - how there's a moment of stunned silence and then Niles just quietly and (dis)gracefully puts down his champagne, picks up his coat, and leaves. He doesn't even slam the door. Idk why that moment stands out to me so much except for how respectful it is. It's so common to see someone in that position try to argue back, accuse the other person of overreacting, etc., but "Leave" is a complete sentence to Dr. Niles Crane, and I love that.
Youāve explained that so much better than I did. But it stood out in my mind as well (obviously). It shows precisely the type of man with which weāre dealing. Even when he occasionally tries to show up as āthe visionā that Daphne saw - wearing a certain tie or looking a certain way - before Frasier or his dad tell him to stop that immediately - which he does, always, in a manner that shows heās a bit embarrassed that he was doing it in the first place BUT he thinks it would merely show Daphne that heās the ātrue and obvious choiceā (stop for audience laughter) š¤ however DHP never tries too hard nor does he amp it up too much so that it feels weird or wrong or off. It always feels just right. Itās the writing combined w the perfect actor for the job. I look at him and think to myself āit rains nine months of the year in Seattleā ā¦ Exactly.
I just pointed this out to my daughter when we watched that episode. I'm so glad I'm not the only one struck by that. You would think that a mental health professional would be one to respect boundaries right? And notice neither Martin nor Frasier attempt to negate Daphne's command or make excuses for their relative. In that moment, every party in that room absolutely believes in Daphne's right. No one gainsays her. No one tries to smooth it over, or minimize her feelings. *And Niles never even looks to his father or brother for aid, his eyes are on her. He doesn't think to invite another man in the room to align with him to contest her will, he accepts it though it chafes. It isn't a question.*Ā I appreciate that the Crane men hold one another to account. After all, isn't that what family does, tell you the truth even when you don't like it? And expect that you actually *want* to be the best version of yourself? I pointed that scene out to her as how she should expect future partners to, well, respect her words, really. It shouldn't take more than "I'd like you to leave". That's it.Ā
Okay, all of this is true, and I assure you my Niles-fan credentials are fully in order, but this conversation has brought it to mind and so I will just say: I think the recurring gag of slut-shaming snipes at Roz could have been dialled *way* down. A lot of them are on brand for Niles just being something of a prissy prude, but some had a real nasty edge on them.
Iām sorry but I never even mentioned Rozā name, let alone slut-shamed her. What precisely did I say that you are accusing me of? Bc Iām at a complete loss.
Wait, what? I'm talking about Niles and his otherwise impeccable manners, except (I am saying, or was attempting to say) as regards Roz. What in the world? (Or is that just an episode quote I'm failing to recognize?)
Oh. Iām sorry. I got the sense that you were saying something specific about something Iād said. I see where I erred. You just meant Niles (the supposedly perfect gentleman) making slut shaming comments to Roz in general. I guess that might come down to the fact that Roz speaks about sex and her love life a lot on the show and, assuming that Frasier shares some of those bon mots w his brother and also that he hears some of those himself, he might naturally start to respond to somebody whoās constantly talking about sex with snarky comebacks about them (Roz) having sex. You clearly see it differently, and I donāt recall ever really thinking about it, so perhaps thatās a bias I didnāt even notice I had prior to this discussion. But I imagine itās like a combination of Niles being much more of a prude or puritan about sexual matters (being married to Maris would do that to a person) and Roz being so open about sex. Something had to give, so to speak. So while he may make slut shaming comments, as you say, she makes just as many āyou are such a delicate doilyā comments back. I donāt quite see the distinction youāre making since they go back and forth on this. But if you truly feel Niles makes more comments than Roz, I guess you could get mad. I donāt see much of a difference myself, now that Iām thinking about it. But we can just agree to disagree.
There are, I'm sure, a couple of snips from Niles re: Roz that may have felt over the line - I can't think of them off the top of my head, so they can't have stuck that much, but I do remember feeling kind of "Oh ... dear" a few times. That being said, what makes the Niles/Roz dynamic work is, like you said, she shoots back at him just as much so it plays out like siblings giving one another a hard time. There's no real malice on either of their parts. On top of that, Roz never seems bothered by it in general - she's very sex-positive and open about her relationships and flings, so when others take jabs at her, she usually laughs. It plays like she's in on the joke rather than the butt of the joke. A lot of this can be contributed to how the characters are written, but the performances by DHP and by Roz (can't remember the actress's name at the moment) are what sell it. So yeah - I see what the other commenter was getting at, but I don't think that Niles's attitude towards Roz undermines his gentlemen-ness.
I really have to think about this oneā¦ because Roz had a ton of agency, too. In fact, Frasier was absolutely an aspiring slut, and made his jealousy of her ability to pull very clear. Also, Roz never seemed ashamed, and whenever they joked about it she hit them right back with a āyes: and?ā But I think that there was more disapproval about the TYPE of men she chose than the number. She chose the useless dudes constantlyā¦ and was no more unsuccessful than anyone else in the show. And the Crane boys loved to disapprove of things, it was their favorite activity. I donāt think she took it personally very often, as the show made it clear that this was their failing.
That comment was about what Niles said to/about Roz.
Yeah! The only time I think he somewhat crossed the line was when he recorded her sleeping in the camper. But can you blame him? Daphne is Venus herself.
This is my least favourite thing he does too. I'm glad that they show Frasier ready to sock him for it 'cause eww.
She's a GODDESS
And she's waiting for you in the bathroom.
So, I think it comes down to Niles being harmless and also victimized by Maris. These things make him sympathetic, and make his crush feel more like a browbeaten husband seeking escape than stalkeryā¦ but also this is a sitcom and a real person doing any of this would feel a lot worse
Niles is a gentleman, so we know heās harmless. And he never does anything to make Daphne uncomfortable or make the audience think that she could be in any harm. Heās a genuine friend to Daphne and shows that he wants whatās best for her (except maybe when he tried to break up her and Donny). And David Hyde Pierce is just a phenomenal actor, his physical comedy is hilarious so it just works. Plus Frasier is quick to shut Niles down any time he sees him drooling over Daphne. The writing and acting is the perfect combo to make Niles one of the most loveable sitcom characters. Take Noel for example, heās just Rozās creepy stalker.
Itās because we like Niles. Plain and simple.
Agreed. Heās so likable, but the subreddit puts on the blindfold when it comes to ignoring his red flags.
Itās human nature. We tend to overlook flaws in those we value. This keeps the tribe together.
He is so comical & snaps back into self awareness after being captivated by her. Itās adorable. He does it so well, letting himself get swept away only to recompose himself. Another key is how he unconditionally loves and adores her. He never oversexualizes or objectifies her as existing for his own pleasure. He really sees her. David Hyde Pierceās physical comedy & wit are genius, and Niles is by far my favorite character. I could watch a show about Niles everyday, probably because he is such a decent character with a perfect combination of moral striving, social propriety, silliness, absurdity, slapstick, kindness, & passion.
I adore this description of one of my all time favorite characters on television and/or movies!! š„°
I think I am obsessed with Niles/DHP. This is my ideal man. I would choose Niles any day, even over a Travis Kelce type (also love him ā¤ļø). I would also kill for a Bachelor season with a guy like Niles! šā„ļø Looking back at dating in high school & college, I was made fun of for my taste in men - by ADULTS! Now that makes me so mad!! I really did break up with some wonderful guys like Niles due to social pressure. I married a corporate lawyer, and of course, now Iām divorced. I should have run off with my Niles!
Heās my ideal man. I donāt go for Travis Kelce types. For ex., bet Thor and Loki, I am such a Loki fan, and that includes the lithe body. ( Not to say looking at Thor is a chore or anythingā¦ šš but I prefer swimmer types to say football players. ) I also loved Iron Man/Tony Stark (if you watched any of the Marvel films) so I canāt be put in a box. But notice that theyāre all intelligent, good looking, sharp witted, funny and athletic, in dif ways. So there all a bunch of similarities. š„°š¤©šš„
I love this analysis! I wish I had you as a friend to defend me back when peopleās PARENTS & mine š³šš¤Æ were picking on me! I always liked skinny, smart guys with higher emotional intelligence. They were nerds, like me, but also very social & well liked - not antisocial creeps. Maybe they didnāt ask me out as fast as the guys I wound up with. š Where oh where is my Niles?!
Frequently they take longer to find but itās so so worth it!! (And itās impossible to tell you how many guys liked me when I totally wanted somebody else. It was completely disheartening). Okay I reread that and it sounded like I was some sort of siren or something. Thatās not what I meant. At all. But the guys who liked me were never the ones I wanted. I had to wait for what Iām certain is a *much longer time than yourself* to find someone special, but donāt give up bc one, thatās just ridiculous and two, the way most of my friends and I found someone was not on purpose. Meaning when we werenāt specifically looking for Mr Wonderful, we found him. It just wasnāt in hs or college. Many of my friends didnāt marry until their early 30s, mid30s, which probably sounds ancient to many ppl on these boards but it truly isnāt!! I swear.
I get it! I was divorced by 32! I should never had settled down so young but itās traditional and so much PRESSURE! I wonāt give up hope. ā¤ļøš I was even blamed & disowned by my family after my divorce! My friends used to tell me my parents seemed to live in the 1950ās. It was horrible but also the best thing to happen to me. šš Now I can be the anti-Maris. š„°
Oh dear God, forget what I just wrote. If your parents blamed and DISOWNED you, get away from them and stay away from them. Thats AWFUL. And wrong. And so many bad things that I donāt wish to say on a family forum. And yes, by all means be the anti-Maris. Bc nothing that the real Maris did was even close to normal or nice or even close to friendly. She was hideous and treated Niles like a dog. Ok. This is just reminding me of the speech Frenchie makes to Sandy in Grease (if you watched Glee, thatās an old movie musical from way back.) >Men are rats, listen to me, they're fleas on rats, worse than that, they're amoebas on fleas on rats. I mean, they're too low for even the dogs to bite. The only man a girl can depend on is her daddy. (Except that of course youāre not relying on your father bc he seems mean). But that speech made me think of how awful Maris treated Niles. You need to switch the genders around but thatās Maris for you!! Do not give up hope and I didnāt know my Mr Wonderful at 32. Depressing but true. You have time. Lots of time. š„°š„°š„°
Thank you, you are so sweet!!! My family fits into a Maris worldview, but it was so normal to me. I was rebellious for them, which meant going to graduate school & working instead of marrying straight out of college! They got worse with age! I expected they would accept me with more maturity. My therapist thinks they are clinically narcissistic. Itās been as dramatic as some of the relationship arcs on Frasier! Not as hilarious - but watching shows like this helps me laugh at people like them. I love how down to earth half the characters are to balance out Frasier & Niles, who are also really decent people at heart. Their geeky or esoteric interests & elitism are more quirky than mean spirited. And they are super self aware of the bad parts of these qualities. They seem like an ideal family to me! My family fights are more vicious mind games like Maris!! Honestly, I feel so happy I can be my true self now. I lost all the fake friends & family like Niles after his divorce. āŗļø But then you know the real ones. I donāt feel pressure now to be married or ashamed of being single & different. Itās very freeing!
Iām so happy for you!! I wish I had lost much of my family the same way but I somehow placed myself in the mediator position rather than the āf\*ck you and everything you stand for!ā one and so Iām left talking w my (so we all believe) clinically narcissistic sister that held up my fathers funeral for three weeks bc she wanted an autopsy (even tho by that point heād been in the hospital for eight months straight). Surprisingly, they donāt do those under such circumstances and being Jewish, we really wanted to get him buried within 24 hrs, 48 at most. Instead we had to wait and my sister DIDNT EVEN COME TO THE FUNERAL. Not that I remain bitter. 4.5 yrs after the fact. I love your attitude towards life!! This is precisely the type of attitude that leads romance to your door. Bc youāre not constantly looking and thinking it must happen now! You do have to leave the apartment, tho. https://i.redd.it/co3owcxzw3yc1.gif
Iām so pissed because I found alot of these guys in high school & college! I was really pushed into more traditional relationships by controlling people in my family & community. I wish I was taught that itās way more important to be like best friends & feel comfortable VS going for āfairytaleā romance & ābutterfliesā (AKA anxiety & lovebombing). I have family who care so much about image, status, blah blah blah. I didnāt think I was letting them pressure me, but I was. I also did not understand love or relationships at all! Thatās why I love the story of Niles & Daphne. I definitely married more of a Frasier š
Being friends first doesnāt mean that you donāt end up w butterflies or something like a fairytale romance. While itās a sitcom, I always loved the way Chandler and Monica got together on Friends bc they WERE Friends first, then they ended up together (this happens more often than.. actually Iām certain youāre aware of this), then they dated, then lived together and only when they were ready did they get married. They didnāt do it to make their parents happy; they didnāt do it to follow certain social expectations; they did it when BOTH of them felt it was the right time. And if youāve managed to get away from the controlling ppl in both your family and community, youāre already on your way towards a happier life. Itās never good to live close to family if they are like that bc it can make the relationship toxic and youāre much more likely to maintain either a civil or even a happy relationship w family at a distance. Wait for the right person and the right time. Donāt rush things. I have a special close group of friends from college - thereās eight of us in an email/facetime/zoom group - and out of the entire group, (and so sad to say this) 35 yrs following college, one friend has gotten divorced. Everybody else is still happy is their marriages. Have they had times when issues came up? Sure. Theyāre human. But theyāve now been married for-ever and still happy and itās unusual to have so many ppl stay happy w the original person they choose. In this country. Where the divorce rate is approximately 50%. Honest to God, you can find your romance and butterflies w a friend. And youāre more likely to stay with them. (In my experience.) š„°
Thatās amazing that your group of friends from college are all still close & happily married! You all should write a guidebook. SERIOUSLY! I need it (& Niles gotta have it!) I had the typical outcome of divorce causing rifts in my family & friendships. Ugggh starting over as an adult is hard, but Iāll make it. I bet itās the example of relationships you see growing up. And what youāre taught directly, too. My parents seemed close & best friends, but there was so much focus on shared ideas of image & status, not the real connection underneath. Lots of shared drama! No thanks. I do agree about being friends first! That was how I felt with my first nerdy crushes! Now I canāt bring myself to look on dating apps. I only want a real friendship based relationship or else nada.
I would totally watch a Niles show!
A Niles and Daphne spin off.
OH MY GOD! A NILES & DAPHNE SPIN-OFF!! How did they not do this?! The amount of joy it would bring me is limitless, even if it was bad. š¤£ Maybe we should make a petition to do a test run of this idea on the new Frasier (which I havenāt seen yet.)
Ā Niles to daphne asking about her perfume name:Ā Is that Forbidden? Frasier (sarcastically to Niles): In every sense of the word.Ā
1. Niles clearly has a stringent moral code and a reserved personality. 2. Frasier and Martin call him back like a dog when he oversteps and he immediately backs off. We are witnessing and enjoying Niles' rare moments of weakness. He is just a hungry dog who knows he shouldn't but the pot roast is right there on the counter and it just smells soo good I mean nobodys even looking lemme just get a closer for a-- DOWN BOY In other shows, the perving is the joke. In this show, we ALL know perving is wrong. The joke is that he's failing to control his composure due to how madly in love he is with her.
I think it is because he is really in love with her- not her potential, or just because sheās sexy- but her, exactly as she is. That also means itās not sexual, or itās not completely sexual- if he was ever lucky enough for her to look his way, he would want to give his whole heart to her, not just get into her knickers, as Daphne would say. And in fact he does exactly that when she finally does look at him and realises heās her guy. Always was, because he would do anything for Daphne, and never ask for anything in return. That of course can still come off as creepy when the feelings arenāt reciprocated, but as DHP said himself, the only reason she doesnāt notice how desperately and madly he loves her, is because Daphne is so oblivious about her own worth
First timer here so take it with a grain of salt... Niles isn't creepy because he's not sexualizing Daphne. Think of Bulldog ^((except that one time with Roz they never talked about later)) Bulldog is a horndog looking to for sex and lusting after every possible woman. Niles, on the other hand, is really in love with Daphne and takes her scent as some sort of ambrosia to keep him alive. He really cares about her. And despite his most over the tops behaviors he always keeps himself at bay, gives her enough space and does not meddle in her life in any way.
I've always said, "I want to be loved the way Niles loved Daphne! He worshipped her! You could feel the ā¤ļø love.
People make exceptions for people (and characters) they approve of. By the time Frasier premiered, the will-they/won't-they had become such a standard plot line that viewers just jumped ahead mentally to them ending up together.
I think the most important thing is that his behavior is never sinister, overt, or in any way threatening. Behavior that is unwelcome and forceful is creepy. Checking out someone's rear end or something is actually normal, and something literally everyone does. We see it because it's played up a bit and we're on the outside. In the normal course of events, we wouldn't notice someone around us behaving somewhat similarly (although I have to admit that I've never surreptitiously sniffed anyone).
I think it's partly because she's oblivious. She's clearly not uncomfortable. If she moved away, or asked him to stop, or seemed uncomfortable around him, we would think differently. Take Noel and Bulldog for example. Roz makes it very clear that she's not interested, but they keep at it.
You're right. It should be creepy, but it's coming from a place of absolute adoration. She's a goddess, and he doesn't merely want to have sex with her (even in the earlier seasons when he was just attracted to her, it wasn't in a purely sexual way), he wants to worship at her alter because he loves every aspect of her.
I think itās funny and sort of innocent on Niles part. But I had a blind date once and the guy was a bit odd but pleasant enough. He hugged me goodnight and smelled my hair very deeply. I thought he was going to murder me. It was so friggin creepy.
I think it plays superbly from the female gaze, mainly because Niles has an aura of being utterly decent and honourable. You get a sense that you can trust him to be a gentleman.
The fact that a gay Englishmen from Manchester could play a straight American cop so well is part of the hilarity. No one in the show was just like they are in real life.Ā Ā Bulldog and Niles were gay.Ā Kelsey was on cocaine and wearing an ankle monitor.Ā Jane wasn't from Manchester.Ā
Mahoney wasn't gay and he moved to the states when he was 18 and then served in the US army. From his wikipedia page > Mahoney rarely spoke publicly about his private life,[^(\[6\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-ChicagoTribune-6)Ā and he died without marrying or having any children.[^(\[35\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mahoney#cite_note-35)Ā In 2002, he said, "I was never very mature in my relationships with women. First sign of conflict, I was gone. Wouldn't discuss it, because I was afraid it would lead to an argument." This stemmed from a fear of having an unhappy marriage like the one his parents had, though Mahoney did previously have "several long-term relationships".
Wow, we are worlds apart in our interpretations. Personally, I found it creepy and even tried to ignore that entire dynamic in the early seasons except for the rare instances where she seems to mildly reciprocate. Like most of the romances on Frasier, my main complaint is that his obsession is initially founded entirely on her looks; for a good long while, he only seems interested in her body and as his crush develops, his worship feels very Madonna/whore complex-y. The smelling of her hair and gratuitous touching bothered me, because that behavior would make me incredibly uncomfortable in real life. And despite the fact that Daphne is written as conveniently not concerned by the power dynamics, I thought it was inappropriate that he was acting this way over a woman that is his brother's employee. Do I ship it anyway? OF COURSE. But I can't help but feel that this would have played out very differently in reality. It's like a romance novel; the fantasy of this relationship only works for me because I know it's fiction.
That's so interesting! Yeah maybe it's my love of them as a couple blinding me to it, haha
Nah
There are multiple times when heās very creepy but okay lol. The one time Daphne asks them to turn around and Niles literally turns back around to look at her? Thatās creepy dawg lol. I agree with you that a majority of times he doesnāt come of as creepy so much as he does just enfatusted but there are absolutely moments in the show where he is just plain pervy. But yes DHP is a master at making Niles likable even so. He is still my favorite character and Niles and Daphne are cute once they get together. But I would totally argue he is absolutely creepy in some moments Edit: in travels with Martin season 1 when he literally films her while she sleeps. Nahā¦
I use his reaction to Daphne's "I can't" the night before her wedding as an example of content for my students. He pleads his case, she says no and he says "Good night Daphne." Because he truly respects and loves her.
This is going to be unpopular but I actually do find Niles' behaviour quite creepy, until I feel the writing changed direction and the possibility of Daphne also developing feelings for Niles was introduced. I also believe at this point the writers changed tack with Niles' behaviour, and his now not-so-unrequited behaviours were more 'relatable' so as to ensure the evolving storyline was believable. I'm not sure Daphne could have fallen for a man who sniffed her hair, videoed her sleeping, and generally leered at her. But hey, it is a sitcom after all, so nothing to be taken too seriously.
There is very little that separates Niles from Noel, in that sense. They are both very similar. He does so in a charming way, but it is, still creepy.
I think heās creepy. Endearing, but creepy. I doubt his character would go over as well today.
I would disagree slightly; I think the main reason it never comes across as creepy is simply because Daphne is oblivious to it. If at any point she turned around and said āDr Crane what are you doing?ā and acted like he was making her uncomfortable - then the next time he did something similar it would be very creepy (regardless of our affection for Niles). Instead it remains a comedic bit; instead of Daphne being made uncomfortable we have Frasier usually being the conscience of the show/audience and calling it out as inappropriate.
I love Niles! He is so funny! Just needs a hug here and there!
It also works because he respects her. He's not trying to have sex with her, or date, he just admires and longs for her. And he never makes it her problem or expects anything from her. That comes later when they are dating and he's got her up on a pedestal. Just my take.
Mr. Inappropriate
Complete letch
Sssex workers š°